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吳宗憲 @ 第11屆第5會期司法及法制、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:09,000 | 謝謝主席 麻煩我們法務部還有司法院 |
| 00:00:09,000 | 00:00:19,000 | 好 法務部司法院 |
| 00:00:19,000 | 00:00:23,000 | 我想今天我們要審查獨駕 |
| 00:00:23,000 | 00:00:26,000 | 還有落海公共刑法24條的效忠罪和降罹罪 |
| 00:00:26,000 | 00:00:29,000 | 那我先講一下獨駕的部分 |
| 00:00:29,000 | 00:00:31,000 | 對於路上不特定人的生命 |
| 00:00:31,000 | 00:00:33,000 | 身體造成一些危害 |
| 00:00:33,000 | 00:00:39,000 | 那我支持啦 這個部分本來就應該要慎重嚴重的去處理 |
| 00:00:39,000 | 00:00:43,000 | 所以這個部分我覺得我是大力的支持 |
| 00:00:43,000 | 00:00:46,000 | 好 那但是我今天還要談到另外一個就是 |
| 00:00:46,000 | 00:00:48,000 | 我們這次落海公共刑法的部分 |
| 00:00:48,000 | 00:00:51,000 | 有新增還有一些修法 |
| 00:00:51,000 | 00:00:54,000 | 那我個人當然是完全支持國家安全 |
| 00:00:54,000 | 00:00:56,000 | 這是一件非常重要的事情 |
| 00:00:56,000 | 00:01:00,000 | 但是在陳平時期我們要避免說因為法律的不明確 |
| 00:01:00,000 | 00:01:03,000 | 然後造成人民無所適從 |
| 00:01:03,000 | 00:01:06,000 | 所以我今天必須要清楚知道的一個點就是 |
| 00:01:06,000 | 00:01:10,000 | 現行的我們落海公共刑法17、18、19條 |
| 00:01:10,000 | 00:01:12,000 | 還有加上這次新增的效忠罪 |
| 00:01:12,000 | 00:01:15,000 | 還有我們有落海公共刑法的懲罰法 |
| 00:01:15,000 | 00:01:21,000 | 這幾個東西都用了以後會漏掉的行為模式 |
| 00:01:21,000 | 00:01:24,000 | 那才是我們必須要再新增的法條嘛 |
| 00:01:24,000 | 00:01:26,000 | 那我現在就是有一個疑問就是 |
| 00:01:26,000 | 00:01:29,000 | 那我們今天要新增條文我沒有意見 |
| 00:01:29,000 | 00:01:33,000 | 但是新增的東西真的是在補過往沒有辦法處理的漏洞嗎 |
| 00:01:33,000 | 00:01:36,000 | 就是說我們現在常常發生一個狀況就是 |
| 00:01:36,000 | 00:01:37,000 | 已經有法律規定了 |
| 00:01:37,000 | 00:01:40,000 | 但是行政機關又送一個新增的法律過來 |
| 00:01:40,000 | 00:01:44,000 | 變成說同一個行為你到時候可以找到兩個條文來處理 |
| 00:01:44,000 | 00:01:45,000 | 這個我們現在很常遇到 |
| 00:01:45,000 | 00:01:49,000 | 或是有時候又有人說這個動不動就推給說 |
| 00:01:49,000 | 00:01:52,000 | 立法疏漏、立法院沒有執行好 |
| 00:01:52,000 | 00:01:55,000 | 很多時候是行政機關你早就有法可循了 |
| 00:01:55,000 | 00:02:00,000 | 你沒有做好之後你就推到說立法院這邊沒有把事情講清楚 |
| 00:02:00,000 | 00:02:04,000 | 譬如說我這次講到我們這次看到的那個24條 |
| 00:02:04,000 | 00:02:08,000 | 把刑法提到陰謀欲備犯 |
| 00:02:08,000 | 00:02:11,000 | 像這個部分我看到法務部其實也沒有講什麼 |
| 00:02:11,000 | 00:02:13,000 | 他就一句競表贊同 |
| 00:02:13,000 | 00:02:18,000 | 但是法務部今天在講到獨價的時候卻非常非常的仔細 |
| 00:02:18,000 | 00:02:21,000 | 連這邊講到有沒有殺人故意要區分 |
| 00:02:21,000 | 00:02:25,000 | 脫義可不可以當作定罪證據要求確值那個復驗 |
| 00:02:25,000 | 00:02:28,000 | 還有嚴格證明這個都講得清清楚楚 |
| 00:02:28,000 | 00:02:32,000 | 但是講到我們24條的時候卻講得不清不楚 |
| 00:02:32,000 | 00:02:34,000 | 只有一句競表贊同 |
| 00:02:34,000 | 00:02:37,000 | 所以這部分我還是覺得我認為不應該這樣子 |
| 00:02:37,000 | 00:02:41,000 | 你要新增一個法律你必須告訴我你要補哪一個洞 |
| 00:02:41,000 | 00:02:45,000 | 那24條第五項這個效忠表示罪 |
| 00:02:45,000 | 00:02:47,000 | 這個部分其實我是支持的 |
| 00:02:47,000 | 00:02:49,000 | 我認為說本來就應該要這樣 |
| 00:02:49,000 | 00:02:51,000 | 那所以我自己有一個條文 |
| 00:02:51,000 | 00:02:55,000 | 但是我覺得現有的條文裡面有一個很奇怪的地方就是 |
| 00:02:55,000 | 00:03:00,000 | 像他卻沒有去提到說要有逐升軍事上的不利 |
| 00:03:00,000 | 00:03:03,000 | 所以到最後變一個好像會變成是一個類思想犯 |
| 00:03:03,000 | 00:03:06,000 | 今天如果說一個軍人他只是簡單講一個 |
| 00:03:06,000 | 00:03:08,000 | 我認為好像沒有勝算 |
| 00:03:08,000 | 00:03:13,000 | 或者是說我為了一家老小我到底該不該上戰場等等的 |
| 00:03:13,000 | 00:03:16,000 | 像這種言論出來的時候有沒有可能會涉嫌違法 |
| 00:03:16,000 | 00:03:18,000 | 你定義不清楚啊 |
| 00:03:18,000 | 00:03:20,000 | 所以我想要理解一下 |
| 00:03:20,000 | 00:03:25,000 | 為什麼你們認為說我們這個24條的部分 |
| 00:03:25,000 | 00:03:29,000 | 24條第五項他不需要有一個逐升軍事上的不利 |
| 00:03:33,000 | 00:03:35,000 | 對對來法務部 |
| 00:03:35,000 | 00:03:37,000 | 好那跟委員報告 |
| 00:03:37,000 | 00:03:41,000 | 因為這個陸海空軍刑法當然是國防部主責的這個法案 |
| 00:03:41,000 | 00:03:43,000 | 那就這個甄定第五項的部分 |
| 00:03:43,000 | 00:03:46,000 | 我想在國防部在這個立法說明裡面 |
| 00:03:46,000 | 00:03:53,000 | 他們應該是認為說如果軍人他有對敵人為效忠的表示這樣子的一個行為的話 |
| 00:03:53,000 | 00:03:56,000 | 他其實就已經產生了軍事上的不利益 |
| 00:03:56,000 | 00:04:00,000 | 所以他們認為說這樣子的一個行為其實對軍事的一個不太好 |
| 00:04:00,000 | 00:04:03,000 | 那如果他只是讓一個朋友說我不想打仗 |
| 00:04:03,000 | 00:04:05,000 | 這樣算不算 |
| 00:04:05,000 | 00:04:07,000 | 那跟委員報告就是任何的犯罪 |
| 00:04:07,000 | 00:04:10,000 | 他都要有主觀構成要件跟客觀構成要件的去合制 |
| 00:04:10,000 | 00:04:12,000 | 對啊他確實不想打 |
| 00:04:12,000 | 00:04:14,000 | 然後他讓一個朋友說我不想打主觀客觀都有 |
| 00:04:14,000 | 00:04:16,000 | 那這樣有沒有構成 |
| 00:04:16,000 | 00:04:19,000 | 那我想如果這樣子的一個行為是否構成 |
| 00:04:19,000 | 00:04:22,000 | 當然是要由這個司法機關來做一個認定 |
| 00:04:22,000 | 00:04:24,000 | 那這樣等於沒有回答 |
| 00:04:24,000 | 00:04:27,000 | 我跟你講因為這個狀況是我上次國防部副部長回來 |
| 00:04:27,000 | 00:04:29,000 | 我問他類似的問題他也答不出來 |
| 00:04:29,000 | 00:04:31,000 | 那我當時講了一句話 |
| 00:04:31,000 | 00:04:33,000 | 我說連你貴為將軍的人都答不出來 |
| 00:04:33,000 | 00:04:37,000 | 那請問一下我們底下一個二等兵他怎麼懂我到底行為有沒有違法 |
| 00:04:37,000 | 00:04:39,000 | 我只是日常的抱怨 |
| 00:04:39,000 | 00:04:41,000 | 我只是像我們很多人都會抱怨老闆 |
| 00:04:41,000 | 00:04:43,000 | 但是你還是會怨老闆效忠 |
| 00:04:43,000 | 00:04:47,000 | 我們很多人在公司上班也是每天從早罵老闆罵到晚 |
| 00:04:47,000 | 00:04:49,000 | 但是老闆叫我們做什麼還是盡力去做 |
| 00:04:49,000 | 00:04:51,000 | 如果說把這個東西放進去 |
| 00:04:51,000 | 00:04:53,000 | 而且不需要逐生軍事上的不利 |
| 00:04:53,000 | 00:04:55,000 | 你卻要把他加以處罰的話 |
| 00:04:55,000 | 00:04:57,000 | 我認為這個牽連會非常的廣 |
| 00:04:57,000 | 00:05:01,000 | 更何況這個是針對陳平時期不是戰時 |
| 00:05:01,000 | 00:05:04,000 | 跟委員報告那在構成要件裡面 |
| 00:05:04,000 | 00:05:07,000 | 他其實有一個對敵人為效忠之表示 |
| 00:05:07,000 | 00:05:09,000 | 所以這個表示他必須要是對敵人 |
| 00:05:09,000 | 00:05:11,000 | 而不是我剛才委員提到的 |
| 00:05:11,000 | 00:05:13,000 | 他似乎是單純的一個方式 |
| 00:05:13,000 | 00:05:15,000 | 不是啊那你的敵人的定義又更麻煩了 |
| 00:05:15,000 | 00:05:17,000 | 我今天打線上遊戲 |
| 00:05:17,000 | 00:05:21,000 | 我們現在線上遊戲就是全國全世界都可以連線打的 |
| 00:05:21,000 | 00:05:23,000 | 你永遠不知道你那你一隊的人 |
| 00:05:23,000 | 00:05:25,000 | 他可能是中國大陸的軍人啊 |
| 00:05:25,000 | 00:05:29,000 | 這個很難說你打線上遊戲的時候你同一隊的人是誰你不知道 |
| 00:05:29,000 | 00:05:31,000 | 那這時候很容易就被扣帽子 |
| 00:05:31,000 | 00:05:35,000 | 那第二個就是說你今天跟他聯繫的那個對象 |
| 00:05:35,000 | 00:05:39,000 | 他到底是什麼他有沒有其他的背景我們很多時候不清楚嘛 |
| 00:05:39,000 | 00:05:42,000 | 對那他他只不上我們今天民進黨 |
| 00:05:42,000 | 00:05:45,000 | 民進黨的高層也被發現很多共諜啊 |
| 00:05:45,000 | 00:05:52,000 | 那我相信他是執政黨的官員執政黨的官員身邊的秘書 |
| 00:05:52,000 | 00:05:54,000 | 我也相信我覺得他應該是為台灣好 |
| 00:05:54,000 | 00:05:56,000 | 就我跟他講了這個話 |
| 00:05:56,000 | 00:05:59,000 | 就後來他被發現是共諜那這個算不算對敵人 |
| 00:05:59,000 | 00:06:02,000 | 所以我認為牽連甚廣啦 |
| 00:06:02,000 | 00:06:06,000 | 尤其是在非戰爭時期你認為說不需要逐生軍事上不利益 |
| 00:06:06,000 | 00:06:08,000 | 我這是一個很大的風險 |
| 00:06:08,000 | 00:06:13,000 | 我就說我支持這個忠誠義務 |
| 00:06:13,000 | 00:06:17,000 | 所以二十四條的部分第五項我也支持 |
| 00:06:17,000 | 00:06:20,000 | 但是我認為要加上一個逐生軍事上的不利益啦 |
| 00:06:20,000 | 00:06:23,000 | 那我也不懂說法務部就一句競表贊同 |
| 00:06:23,000 | 00:06:28,000 | 好像就是說我認為你們在處理其他的犯罪的時候 |
| 00:06:28,000 | 00:06:31,000 | 你們非常非常嚴謹像我剛剛講的獨價 |
| 00:06:31,000 | 00:06:34,000 | 你們連口水的確值你們都要求到這麼精確 |
| 00:06:34,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 但是在處理這種其他的案子的時候 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:41,000 | 國家安全案子的時候你們卻放得非常的寬 |
| 00:06:41,000 | 00:06:44,000 | 這一點是我不太能夠理解 |
| 00:06:44,000 | 00:06:47,000 | 甚至我覺得司法院你們的想法呢 |
| 00:06:47,000 | 00:06:50,000 | 報告委員關於這個二十四條第五項的部分 |
| 00:06:50,000 | 00:06:54,000 | 我們提出的書面意見是認為可以用適性犯來處理 |
| 00:06:54,000 | 00:06:58,000 | 那剛剛委員所講逐生軍事上不利益就是在最高法院的見解 |
| 00:06:58,000 | 00:07:01,000 | 這個叫這個刑事的適性犯 |
| 00:07:01,000 | 00:07:04,000 | 那他可以有比較有效的去限縮這個處理的犯 |
| 00:07:04,000 | 00:07:08,000 | 所以司法院因為我看到司法院的見解是認為說 |
| 00:07:08,000 | 00:07:11,000 | 也是有必要把它加上這個要件 |
| 00:07:11,000 | 00:07:14,000 | 現在變成說司法院跟法務部兩個想法不一樣 |
| 00:07:14,000 | 00:07:17,000 | 法務部現在對於國防部的想法就是競表贊同 |
| 00:07:17,000 | 00:07:18,000 | 你說什麼就好 |
| 00:07:18,000 | 00:07:21,000 | 那我覺得這就不專業了嘛 |
| 00:07:21,000 | 00:07:24,000 | 那這樣子的話其實我覺得牽連甚廣 |
| 00:07:24,000 | 00:07:27,000 | 那陳平時期很多人都會出事情 |
| 00:07:27,000 | 00:07:30,000 | 那我只是說我還是堅持一個點 |
| 00:07:30,000 | 00:07:34,000 | 我對於二十四條的第五項我是支持的 |
| 00:07:34,000 | 00:07:37,000 | 但是我認為不能夠隨隨便便毫無門檻 |
| 00:07:37,000 | 00:07:40,000 | 我認為說還是要加上逐生軍事上不利益 |
| 00:07:40,000 | 00:07:42,000 | 這個要求是我認為需要做到 |
| 00:07:42,000 | 00:07:46,000 | 而且我看到民進黨委員他所提出來的案子 |
| 00:07:46,000 | 00:07:49,000 | 好像是那個陳冠廷委員他提出來的 |
| 00:07:49,000 | 00:07:52,000 | 裡面也是要求要逐生軍事上不利益 |
| 00:07:52,000 | 00:07:55,000 | 所以這個部分其實我覺得民黨的提案跟我的提案 |
| 00:07:55,000 | 00:07:56,000 | 都有這一條 |
| 00:07:56,000 | 00:07:58,000 | 法務部是不是可以再仔細再想一下 |
| 00:07:58,000 | 00:08:00,000 | 而不是說一句競表同意 |
| 00:08:00,000 | 00:08:02,000 | 那你是國防部的小孩嗎 |
| 00:08:02,000 | 00:08:06,000 | 好那再來二十四條還有一個第四項 |
| 00:08:06,000 | 00:08:08,000 | 我們增訂陰謀跟預備降敵 |
| 00:08:08,000 | 00:08:12,000 | 我想我們我這個部分我也是覺得很糟糕 |
| 00:08:12,000 | 00:08:16,000 | 就是第一項投敵這個要嚴懲絕對沒有問題 |
| 00:08:16,000 | 00:08:19,000 | 百分之百要嚴懲二十四條那個第一項 |
| 00:08:19,000 | 00:08:24,000 | 但是你把降敵你連陰謀預備犯都要把它處理進去 |
| 00:08:24,000 | 00:08:27,000 | 這是我認為一個很大風險的地方 |
| 00:08:27,000 | 00:08:29,000 | 我想主席是學法律他一定知道 |
| 00:08:29,000 | 00:08:34,000 | 我國刑罰會處罰到陰謀預備的條文非常非常少 |
| 00:08:34,000 | 00:08:38,000 | 也就是說幾乎百分之九十九都不會處罰到陰謀預備 |
| 00:08:38,000 | 00:08:41,000 | 我這邊簡單講一下我跟大家報告一下 |
| 00:08:41,000 | 00:08:45,000 | 我們犯罪行為的過程決議陰謀預備著手 |
| 00:08:45,000 | 00:08:47,000 | 然後再談到繼位稅 |
| 00:08:47,000 | 00:08:51,000 | 那當然你在我們以殺人罪來說 |
| 00:08:51,000 | 00:08:53,000 | 你想要殺一個人是決議 |
| 00:08:53,000 | 00:08:57,000 | 那你開始在既定整個計畫就是陰謀預備 |
| 00:08:57,000 | 00:08:59,000 | 是你跑去買刀子了 |
| 00:08:59,000 | 00:09:01,000 | 左手就你跑去他家 |
| 00:09:01,000 | 00:09:04,000 | 所以我們一般人覺得左手才是真正開始殺人 |
| 00:09:04,000 | 00:09:06,000 | 可是因為殺人罪很嚴重 |
| 00:09:06,000 | 00:09:08,000 | 所以我們把它提升到陰謀預備的階段 |
| 00:09:08,000 | 00:09:10,000 | 所以才會有這個 |
| 00:09:10,000 | 00:09:13,000 | 但是你今天卻對於一個所謂的降敵 |
| 00:09:13,000 | 00:09:15,000 | 你要把它拉到陰謀跟預備 |
| 00:09:15,000 | 00:09:18,000 | 那這個問題會變得風險越來越高 |
| 00:09:18,000 | 00:09:22,000 | 會讓人家我會覺得變成是一個控制一個思想犯 |
| 00:09:22,000 | 00:09:24,000 | 我講一個很簡單 |
| 00:09:24,000 | 00:09:27,000 | 去年國民黨很多委員被提罷免案 |
| 00:09:27,000 | 00:09:30,000 | 其中一個理由是說因為你支持核能 |
| 00:09:30,000 | 00:09:32,000 | 所以去年支持核能的人 |
| 00:09:32,000 | 00:09:34,000 | 叫做你要配合解放軍攻台的時候 |
| 00:09:34,000 | 00:09:36,000 | 可以轟炸核能電廠 |
| 00:09:36,000 | 00:09:39,000 | 今年我們賴總統認為核能要重新使用 |
| 00:09:39,000 | 00:09:42,000 | 今年開始反核的人變成你要破壞台灣的經濟 |
| 00:09:42,000 | 00:09:44,000 | 配合解放軍攻台 |
| 00:09:44,000 | 00:09:47,000 | 也就是說同樣的事情現在就是隨機 |
| 00:09:47,000 | 00:09:49,000 | 隨時都可以幫你扣帽子 |
| 00:09:49,000 | 00:09:50,000 | 那你這個狀況之下 |
| 00:09:50,000 | 00:09:53,000 | 我覺得如果你把所謂的降敵拉到陰謀預備 |
| 00:09:53,000 | 00:09:56,000 | 我覺得這個風險非常非常的高 |
| 00:09:56,000 | 00:10:00,000 | 那你今天你要把降敵加上陰謀預備 |
| 00:10:00,000 | 00:10:01,000 | 我也沒意見 |
| 00:10:01,000 | 00:10:03,000 | 那我想請問一下法務部以及司法院 |
| 00:10:03,000 | 00:10:06,000 | 目前有沒有任何一個實際案例 |
| 00:10:06,000 | 00:10:09,000 | 可以說明為什麼我們17 18 19 |
| 00:10:09,000 | 00:10:12,000 | 跟24條第一項都沒有辦法處理 |
| 00:10:12,000 | 00:10:15,000 | 要增訂24條的第四項 |
| 00:10:15,000 | 00:10:19,000 | 有哪一個實際的例子你可以講給我聽 |
| 00:10:21,000 | 00:10:22,000 | 跟委員報告 |
| 00:10:22,000 | 00:10:25,000 | 因為這個是國防部他們主管的法規 |
| 00:10:25,000 | 00:10:27,000 | 不是 法務部你不能這樣講 |
| 00:10:27,000 | 00:10:30,000 | 他們要增訂這個法條的話 |
| 00:10:30,000 | 00:10:31,000 | 我想有他們的用意 |
| 00:10:31,000 | 00:10:34,000 | 那是不是可以請國防部來說明 |
| 00:10:34,000 | 00:10:35,000 | 不是 你們競表同意 |
| 00:10:35,000 | 00:10:37,000 | 那你們競表同意你認為你 |
| 00:10:37,000 | 00:10:39,000 | 你認為國防部這樣定是對的 |
| 00:10:39,000 | 00:10:40,000 | 我們就是尊重國防部 |
| 00:10:40,000 | 00:10:41,000 | 我今天是這樣 |
| 00:10:41,000 | 00:10:43,000 | 如果今天有一個行為 |
| 00:10:43,000 | 00:10:47,000 | 真的有需要把降敵拉到陰謀預備 |
| 00:10:47,000 | 00:10:48,000 | 你跟我講一個實際的案例 |
| 00:10:48,000 | 00:10:49,000 | 那我就沒有意見 |
| 00:10:49,000 | 00:10:51,000 | 但如果過往都沒有 |
| 00:10:51,000 | 00:10:53,000 | 或者是過往的所有行為 |
| 00:10:53,000 | 00:10:55,000 | 你們都直接用17條 |
| 00:10:55,000 | 00:10:57,000 | 18條19條就可以解決了 |
| 00:10:57,000 | 00:10:59,000 | 那為什麼今天要新增一個條文 |
| 00:10:59,000 | 00:11:00,000 | 我的問題在這裡 |
| 00:11:00,000 | 00:11:03,000 | 國防部或者是司法院或法務部 |
| 00:11:03,000 | 00:11:05,000 | 你們可不可以給我講出一個例子 |
| 00:11:05,000 | 00:11:08,000 | 法委員我在思考這個國防部 |
| 00:11:08,000 | 00:11:10,000 | 他們是為了這個對外能夠防治 |
| 00:11:10,000 | 00:11:11,000 | 這個敵方事件 |
| 00:11:11,000 | 00:11:13,000 | 靠近麥克風一點 |
| 00:11:13,000 | 00:11:14,000 | 我想國防部增訂這個 |
| 00:11:14,000 | 00:11:17,000 | 我們知道陰謀預備是法醫保護的前置化 |
| 00:11:17,000 | 00:11:19,000 | 那我們再去查過往案例 |
| 00:11:19,000 | 00:11:21,000 | 如果已經降敵記稅的話 |
| 00:11:21,000 | 00:11:25,000 | 那可能在大陸時代8年抗戰的時候 |
| 00:11:25,000 | 00:11:26,000 | 有這種案例 |
| 00:11:26,000 | 00:11:27,000 | 如果是在現代的戰爭 |
| 00:11:27,000 | 00:11:29,000 | 假設我們沒有辦法保存戰力 |
| 00:11:29,000 | 00:11:31,000 | 很快的被打敗的時候 |
| 00:11:31,000 | 00:11:33,000 | 或是說軍力動搖 |
| 00:11:33,000 | 00:11:35,000 | 那如果沒有再保護的前置的話 |
| 00:11:35,000 | 00:11:37,000 | 那降敵已經記稅 |
| 00:11:37,000 | 00:11:38,000 | 那要怎麼處罰 |
| 00:11:38,000 | 00:11:40,000 | 那所以我想國防部他們要保衛國家安全 |
| 00:11:40,000 | 00:11:43,000 | 他可能有一定的這個用意 |
| 00:11:43,000 | 00:11:45,000 | 那我當然也了解委員關切這個 |
| 00:11:45,000 | 00:11:47,000 | 刑罰法律的明確性 |
| 00:11:47,000 | 00:11:50,000 | 以及在含色具體事實可能產生不確定 |
| 00:11:50,000 | 00:11:53,000 | 這個是非常重要的憲法角度 |
| 00:11:53,000 | 00:11:54,000 | 那我想這個部分 |
| 00:11:54,000 | 00:11:56,000 | 我還是這樣啦 |
| 00:11:56,000 | 00:11:57,000 | 我要再講一個重點 |
| 00:11:57,000 | 00:11:59,000 | 陳平時期 |
| 00:11:59,000 | 00:12:01,000 | 這個東西是可以對陳平時期 |
| 00:12:01,000 | 00:12:02,000 | 不是暫時 |
| 00:12:02,000 | 00:12:04,000 | 暫時有暫時最高標準要求 |
| 00:12:04,000 | 00:12:05,000 | 我沒有意見 |
| 00:12:05,000 | 00:12:07,000 | 第二個我們在場很多念法律的人 |
| 00:12:07,000 | 00:12:10,000 | 實質行為著手了以後 |
| 00:12:10,000 | 00:12:12,000 | 嚴懲我也沒有意見 |
| 00:12:12,000 | 00:12:14,000 | 但是今天是要把降敵 |
| 00:12:14,000 | 00:12:15,000 | 不是投敵喔 |
| 00:12:15,000 | 00:12:18,000 | 降敵你要拉到陰謀欲備 |
| 00:12:18,000 | 00:12:20,000 | 這是我擔心的部分 |
| 00:12:20,000 | 00:12:22,000 | 因為國家政黨可能都會輪替 |
| 00:12:22,000 | 00:12:24,000 | 那我不希望任何一個執政之後 |
| 00:12:24,000 | 00:12:27,000 | 都拿這個東西來修理他不喜歡的人 |
| 00:12:27,000 | 00:12:30,000 | 所以你一個東西要拉到陰謀欲備 |
| 00:12:30,000 | 00:12:31,000 | 我覺得不能那麼隨便 |
| 00:12:31,000 | 00:12:32,000 | 甚至你可不可以告訴我 |
| 00:12:32,000 | 00:12:37,000 | 目前我國發生了哪一個實際案例之後 |
| 00:12:37,000 | 00:12:39,000 | 因為沒有這個條文 |
| 00:12:39,000 | 00:12:40,000 | 而我們沒有辦法處罰 |
| 00:12:40,000 | 00:12:42,000 | 可不可以告訴我一個例子就好 |
| 00:12:42,000 | 00:12:43,000 | 有沒有 |
| 00:12:47,000 | 00:12:48,000 | 這部分他們 |
| 00:12:48,000 | 00:12:50,000 | 實際上案例他們可能比較了解 |
| 00:12:50,000 | 00:12:51,000 | 我們有一個例子 |
| 00:12:51,000 | 00:12:52,000 | 可是國防部也有在 |
| 00:12:52,000 | 00:12:53,000 | 請國防部 |
| 00:12:54,000 | 00:12:56,000 | 時間控制一下 |
| 00:12:56,000 | 00:12:57,000 | 報告委員 |
| 00:12:57,000 | 00:13:00,000 | 降敵最現在沒有相關的案例 |
| 00:13:00,000 | 00:13:02,000 | 對那現在沒有相關的案例 |
| 00:13:02,000 | 00:13:03,000 | 你要把這個拉到陰謀欲備 |
| 00:13:03,000 | 00:13:05,000 | 因為中共現在滲透我們國軍的手法 |
| 00:13:05,000 | 00:13:06,000 | 現在是多元化 |
| 00:13:06,000 | 00:13:07,000 | 那我們 |
| 00:13:07,000 | 00:13:09,000 | 這個不構成理喔 |
| 00:13:09,000 | 00:13:11,000 | 我們之前發現說 |
| 00:13:11,000 | 00:13:14,000 | 在謝孟舒也就是我們航特部的軍官 |
| 00:13:14,000 | 00:13:19,000 | 他對敵人為效忠的表示 |
| 00:13:19,000 | 00:13:20,000 | 那他之前他 |
| 00:13:20,000 | 00:13:24,000 | 我跟你講你講的17 18 19都可以處理 |
| 00:13:24,000 | 00:13:26,000 | 你講的東西17條18 18 19都可以處理 |
| 00:13:26,000 | 00:13:28,000 | 這個案例當中 |
| 00:13:28,000 | 00:13:30,000 | 所謂的陰謀就是兩個人以上 |
| 00:13:30,000 | 00:13:32,000 | 對一定犯罪實施是模擬 |
| 00:13:32,000 | 00:13:34,000 | 但他在這個犯罪行為之前 |
| 00:13:34,000 | 00:13:36,000 | 他有做這個模擬 |
| 00:13:36,000 | 00:13:37,000 | 有兩個人以上 |
| 00:13:37,000 | 00:13:40,000 | 可能要嫁他的職身去 |
| 00:13:40,000 | 00:13:43,000 | 新生法律不能靠想像啦 |
| 00:13:43,000 | 00:13:44,000 | 謝謝 |
| 00:13:44,000 | 00:13:47,000 | 我們主條的時候 |
| 00:13:47,000 | 00:13:49,000 | 大家可不可以討論一下 |
| 00:13:49,000 | 00:13:50,000 | 報告 |
| 00:13:50,000 | 00:13:52,000 | 因為這個部分 |
| 00:13:52,000 | 00:13:55,000 | 我甚至我都覺得將來是不是有一些東西應該 |
| 00:13:55,000 | 00:13:57,000 | 如果我們開公聽會 |
| 00:13:57,000 | 00:13:58,000 | 我們可以離 |
| 00:13:58,000 | 00:13:59,000 | 不是不是這個在主條的時候 |
| 00:13:59,000 | 00:14:01,000 | 大家可以好好來討論 |
| 00:14:01,000 | 00:14:02,000 | 這些 |
| 00:14:02,000 | 00:14:03,000 | 個人對 |
| 00:14:03,000 | 00:14:05,000 | 每一個人對國家安全的 |
| 00:14:05,000 | 00:14:07,000 | 看法會有所不同 |
| 00:14:07,000 | 00:14:11,000 | 那到底要不要把對於 |
| 00:14:11,000 | 00:14:14,000 | 敵對勢力的這一種 |
| 00:14:14,000 | 00:14:15,000 | 滲透 |
| 00:14:15,000 | 00:14:17,000 | 或者在部隊裡面的 |
| 00:14:17,000 | 00:14:19,000 | 對一般老百姓的話 |
| 00:14:19,000 | 00:14:21,000 | 言論自由思想自由 |
| 00:14:21,000 | 00:14:22,000 | 這個都沒有問題 |
| 00:14:22,000 | 00:14:23,000 | 但是說部隊裡面 |
| 00:14:23,000 | 00:14:26,000 | 涉及到他一個動作 |
| 00:14:26,000 | 00:14:28,000 | 或者說他哪一些行為涉及到說 |
| 00:14:28,000 | 00:14:30,000 | 你的預備啦 |
| 00:14:30,000 | 00:14:32,000 | 陰謀要叛國 |
| 00:14:32,000 | 00:14:33,000 | 可能處理的方式 |
| 00:14:33,000 | 00:14:36,000 | 國人也會認為說部隊是不是要做 |
| 00:14:36,000 | 00:14:38,000 | 不同的處理 |
| 00:14:38,000 | 00:14:40,000 | 那倒也不會因為說討厭誰啦 |
| 00:14:40,000 | 00:14:41,000 | 不會啦 |
| 00:14:41,000 | 00:14:42,000 | 誰家的子弟 |
| 00:14:42,000 | 00:14:44,000 | 或者說誰去當兵的人 |
| 00:14:44,000 | 00:14:45,000 | 涉及到這樣一個 |
| 00:14:45,000 | 00:14:46,000 | 應該用行為來判斷 |
| 00:14:46,000 | 00:14:48,000 | 我就直接結尾好 |
| 00:14:48,000 | 00:14:49,000 | 我就不浪費大家時間 |
| 00:14:49,000 | 00:14:50,000 | OK好 |
| 00:14:50,000 | 00:14:51,000 | 因為我會結尾 |
| 00:14:51,000 | 00:14:52,000 | 好那我就說 |
| 00:14:52,000 | 00:14:54,000 | 我今天會講這個真的是 |
| 00:14:54,000 | 00:14:55,000 | 我們國家是義務役 |
| 00:14:55,000 | 00:14:56,000 | 不是志願役 |
| 00:14:56,000 | 00:14:57,000 | 所以很多人他是 |
| 00:14:57,000 | 00:14:59,000 | 必須扶義務去當兵 |
| 00:14:59,000 | 00:15:00,000 | 那他這時候是軍人 |
| 00:15:00,000 | 00:15:02,000 | 他就可能會卡到這一條關 |
| 00:15:02,000 | 00:15:03,000 | 這一條案子喔 |
| 00:15:03,000 | 00:15:05,000 | 所以不是說我跟你講 |
| 00:15:05,000 | 00:15:07,000 | 我比任何人都更痛恨判國的人 |
| 00:15:07,000 | 00:15:09,000 | 我也不容許這種人存在 |
| 00:15:09,000 | 00:15:10,000 | 但是我也要求一件事 |
| 00:15:10,000 | 00:15:12,000 | 這麼重的罪法律明確性 |
| 00:15:12,000 | 00:15:13,000 | 一定要把它存在 |
| 00:15:13,000 | 00:15:14,000 | 合理 |
| 00:15:14,000 | 00:15:15,000 | 都是念法律的 |
| 00:15:15,000 | 00:15:16,000 | 是好謝謝 |
| 00:15:16,000 | 00:15:17,000 | 重點要研辦 |
| 00:15:17,000 | 00:15:19,000 | 但是不能靠想像來補漏洞 |
| 00:15:19,000 | 00:15:20,000 | 要關一個人五年 |
| 00:15:20,000 | 00:15:22,000 | 不可以連他基本會裁拿 |
| 00:15:22,000 | 00:15:23,000 | 他都不知道 |
| 00:15:23,000 | 00:15:25,000 | 上次副部長都講不出來 |
| 00:15:25,000 | 00:15:27,000 | 一個二等兵怎麼想得到 |
| 00:15:27,000 | 00:15:28,000 | 好謝謝 |
| 00:15:28,000 | 00:15:30,000 | 好謝謝吳宗憲委員 |
| 00:15:30,000 | 00:15:32,000 | 那個很 |