iVOD / 170884

本逐字稿內容由 AI 自動生成，可能包含錯誤、遺漏或誤譯之處。請使用者務必與原始影片音訊內容交叉比對，以確保資訊正確性。另可參考立法院日後釋出的正式公報以取得最終權威版本。

葉元之 @ 第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第25次全體委員會議

Start Time End Time Text
00:00:00,000 00:00:02,000 葉委員 指揮委員 質詢
00:00:11,760 00:00:14,560 主席好 我們先請江志剛主長 謝謝
00:00:14,560 00:00:16,560 請江首長
00:00:22,320 00:00:24,320 委員好 蘇大華老師跟你確定一件事
00:00:24,320 00:00:26,320 因為8月7號那時候就傳出來
00:00:26,320 00:00:29,760 您跟石頭良部長已經要請辭
00:00:29,840 00:00:32,320 然後行政院的發言人說
00:00:32,320 00:00:34,320 這個沒有辦法代為發言
00:00:34,320 00:00:36,320 所以大家的解讀
00:00:36,320 00:00:38,320 包括民進黨立委都解讀說你們已經請辭了
00:00:38,320 00:00:40,320 然後昨天呢
00:00:40,320 00:00:42,320 這個議題持續發酵
00:00:42,320 00:00:44,320 衛福部呢 回答也很曖昧
00:00:44,320 00:00:46,320 說不予回應
00:00:46,320 00:00:48,320 不是說沒有 是說不予回應
00:00:48,320 00:00:50,320 那行政院的回覆是說
00:00:50,320 00:00:52,320 沒有討論相關議題
00:00:52,320 00:00:54,320 感覺上好像您跟
00:00:54,320 00:00:56,320 石頭良部長已經請辭
00:00:56,320 00:00:58,320 我跟您確認一下 您請辭了嗎
00:00:58,880 00:01:00,880 包委員 我現在還在這邊上班
00:01:00,880 00:01:02,880 你來這邊上班跟請辭是兩件事情
00:01:02,880 00:01:04,879 不要耍嘴皮子 你請辭了嗎
00:01:04,879 00:01:06,880 上班就是持續把還沒有做完的事情
00:01:06,880 00:01:08,880 那有沒有請辭
00:01:08,880 00:01:10,880 你請辭有可能還沒批啊
00:01:10,880 00:01:12,880 或者是你請辭可能為了一個禮拜
00:01:12,880 00:01:14,880 你有沒有立出請辭這個動作 有沒有
00:01:14,880 00:01:16,880 我想委員心裡面的答案
00:01:16,880 00:01:18,880 跟我的答案是一樣的
00:01:18,880 00:01:20,880 我的答案 我沒有答案啊
00:01:20,880 00:01:22,880 那我也沒有答案
00:01:22,880 00:01:24,880 不是來 不要浪費我的時間好不好
00:01:24,880 00:01:26,880 你有沒有請辭那麼晚回答
00:01:27,440 00:01:29,440 今天請辭也代表是一個負責的表現嘛
00:01:29,440 00:01:31,440 我想這邊跟委員做進一步說明
00:01:31,440 00:01:33,440 我來學藥署裡面有三件重要的事情
00:01:33,440 00:01:35,440 第一個堅持我對於食安的科學治理
00:01:35,440 00:01:37,440 誒 莊長 莊長 莊長
00:01:37,440 00:01:39,440 這個是你在上任的時候要講的
00:01:39,440 00:01:41,440 我現在問你請辭
00:01:41,440 00:01:43,440 你就這麼簡單你答不出
00:01:43,440 00:01:45,440 我覺得很重要的事情是
00:01:45,440 00:01:47,440 我們所有的提議
00:01:47,440 00:01:49,440 我們學藥署的同仁的尊嚴
00:01:49,440 00:01:51,440 有沒有想堅持下去
00:01:51,440 00:01:53,440 所以我堅持還辭
00:01:53,440 00:01:55,440 我看你回答這麼困難
00:01:56,000 00:01:58,000 因為我剛剛前面有鋪陳嘛
00:01:58,000 00:02:00,000 你剛剛一直說答案跟我一樣
00:02:00,000 00:02:02,000 我想說你應該請辭
00:02:02,000 00:02:04,000 那你就是沒請辭
00:02:04,000 00:02:06,000 所以就沒有請辭
00:02:06,000 00:02:08,000 那你沒有請辭我就不懂為什麼
00:02:08,000 00:02:10,000 謝謝委員可以住在我心裡面
00:02:10,000 00:02:12,000 知道我的心
00:02:12,000 00:02:14,000 因為我說你請辭你說我答錯
00:02:14,000 00:02:16,000 那不就沒請辭嗎
00:02:16,000 00:02:18,000 這就是有跟沒有嘛
00:02:18,000 00:02:20,000 我覺得大家的中文
00:02:20,000 00:02:22,000 不用弄到那麼複雜
00:02:22,000 00:02:24,000 我說沒請辭
00:02:24,560 00:02:26,560 對我的去留最關心的是
00:02:26,560 00:02:28,560 中聯為什麼現在
00:02:28,560 00:02:30,560 沒有強力的譴責
00:02:30,560 00:02:32,560 我這邊是邀請全民一起來
00:02:32,560 00:02:34,560 然後我們來譴責中聯
00:02:34,560 00:02:36,560 那請問一下你要不要請辭
00:02:36,560 00:02:38,560 不要每一次答不出問題的時候
00:02:38,560 00:02:40,560 就顧左右言他好不好
00:02:40,560 00:02:42,560 受不了
00:02:42,560 00:02:44,560 每次來這邊都耍嘴皮子
00:02:44,560 00:02:46,560 受不了耶
00:02:46,560 00:02:48,560 不然就說謊我現在問你
00:02:48,560 00:02:50,560 請問一下上個禮拜
00:02:50,560 00:02:52,560 我在衛環委員會問石崇良部長
00:02:53,120 00:02:55,120 我問他說7月3號
00:02:55,120 00:02:57,120 討論食品下架會議的時候
00:02:57,120 00:02:59,120 中聯的人有沒有從頭到尾
00:02:59,120 00:03:01,120 待在那邊
00:03:01,120 00:03:03,120 那他說沒有
00:03:03,120 00:03:05,120 因為他報告完復工程序之後
00:03:05,120 00:03:07,120 就離開了回答沒有超過
00:03:07,120 00:03:09,120 我問他立刻回答
00:03:09,120 00:03:11,120 沒有吃一不到0.00001秒
00:03:11,120 00:03:13,120 那我當下就相信了
00:03:13,120 00:03:15,120 以為中聯的人報告完復工程序就離開
00:03:15,120 00:03:17,120 結果沒有想到
00:03:17,120 00:03:19,120 上個禮拜其他委員問你的時候
00:03:19,120 00:03:21,120 你在現場嘛7月3號實在會在現場嘛
00:03:21,680 00:03:23,680 7月3號
00:03:23,680 00:03:25,680 7月4號台中拍的
00:03:25,680 00:03:27,680 7月4號拍跟他們的
00:03:27,680 00:03:29,680 我說7月4號啦
00:03:29,680 00:03:31,680 拜託主席
00:03:31,680 00:03:33,680 我們請官員不要在那邊痞子樣好不好
00:03:33,680 00:03:35,680 我們現在討論是優先食安重要議題
00:03:35,680 00:03:37,680 連衛福部的食安署長都在那邊耍痞子
00:03:37,680 00:03:39,680 國安院都在看
00:03:39,680 00:03:41,680 你一到回答不出來的問題
00:03:41,680 00:03:43,680 你就只能用耍痞子的方式
00:03:43,680 00:03:45,680 來迴避
00:03:45,680 00:03:47,680 7月4號我在現場
00:03:47,680 00:03:49,680 7月4號嘛
00:03:50,240 00:03:52,240 那請問一下中聯的人
00:03:52,240 00:03:54,240 他有報告完復工程序就離開嗎
00:03:54,240 00:03:56,240 跟委員報告完
00:03:56,240 00:03:58,240 他有沒有聽到你們在討論
00:03:58,240 00:04:00,240 實體下架標準有沒有
00:04:00,240 00:04:01,680 我們把整體的
00:04:01,680 00:04:03,680 有沒有 所有的內容都已經公開給全國
00:04:03,680 00:04:05,680 不是我問你問題就回答就好了
00:04:05,680 00:04:07,680 你不要跟扯別的
00:04:07,680 00:04:09,680 中聯的人是不是在現場就直接聽到你們在討論
00:04:09,680 00:04:11,680 下架標準有沒有嘛
00:04:11,680 00:04:13,680 我想我們討論跟他
00:04:13,680 00:04:15,680 有沒有在現場
00:04:15,680 00:04:17,680 我們持續在討論
00:04:17,680 00:04:19,680 我們持續在討論
00:04:19,680 00:04:21,680 不要扯別的好不好
00:04:21,680 00:04:23,680 報告報告報告報告主席
00:04:23,680 00:04:25,680 你可不可以約束一下這個官員
00:04:25,680 00:04:27,680 我問他的問題他一直扯別的
00:04:27,680 00:04:29,680 這樣子你給我20分鐘都不夠啊
00:04:29,680 00:04:31,680 大家全部靠在這邊啊
00:04:31,680 00:04:33,680 就照著問題回答
00:04:33,680 00:04:35,680 中聯的人你們在討論下架標準的時候
00:04:35,680 00:04:37,680 他在不在現場有沒有
00:04:37,680 00:04:39,680 在不在
00:04:39,680 00:04:41,680 容我說明
00:04:41,680 00:04:43,680 我從頭到尾都有在討論
00:04:43,680 00:04:45,680 那從頭到尾都在嘛
00:04:45,680 00:04:47,680 所以時中聯說謊嘛
00:04:47,680 00:04:51,680 一個衛福部長可以在國會電臺公園說謊喔
00:04:51,680 00:04:53,680 所以時中聯要辭職
00:04:53,680 00:04:55,680 我猜可能他是因為
00:04:55,680 00:04:57,680 說謊辭職啦
00:04:57,680 00:04:59,680 那署長我現在問你啦
00:04:59,680 00:05:01,680 你後來講說7月4號
00:05:01,680 00:05:03,680 那個下架標準20%不用下架
00:05:03,680 00:05:05,680 是您的決策嗎
00:05:05,680 00:05:07,680 你有說過嗎
00:05:07,680 00:05:09,680 你有說過嘛
00:05:09,680 00:05:11,680 那專家因為主治黨我們都看了
00:05:11,680 00:05:13,680 有的專家
00:05:13,680 00:05:15,680 是講說
00:05:15,680 00:05:17,680 不用耍嘴皮子好不好
00:05:17,680 00:05:19,680 真的受不了耶
00:05:19,680 00:05:21,680 各位網友如果你們全國的民眾
00:05:21,680 00:05:23,680 如果有在看的話這就是我們的官啦
00:05:23,680 00:05:25,680 答不出問題的時候就在那邊耍嘴皮子
00:05:25,680 00:05:27,680 我在講很嚴肅的
00:05:27,680 00:05:29,680 食安問題你在跟我幹嘛跟我抬槓喔
00:05:29,680 00:05:31,680 誰教你的啦
00:05:31,680 00:05:33,680 卓榮泰教你的嗎
00:05:33,680 00:05:35,680 是卓榮泰教你的嗎
00:05:35,680 00:05:37,680 我在跟你討論食安問題
00:05:37,680 00:05:39,680 在跟我抬槓
00:05:39,680 00:05:41,680 有兩個專家啦
00:05:41,680 00:05:43,680 一個G專家
00:05:43,680 00:05:45,680 他講說
00:05:45,680 00:05:47,680 就定20%
00:05:47,680 00:05:49,680 就會定於容許值對不對
00:05:49,680 00:05:51,680 還有一個另外一個E專家
00:05:51,680 00:05:53,680 講說如果只考慮
00:05:53,680 00:05:55,680 比例而沒有考慮到
00:05:55,680 00:05:57,680 劑量的話因為他舉了一個膠囊的例子
00:05:57,680 00:05:59,680 跟一個面的例子
00:05:59,680 00:06:01,680 你使用不同的劑量
00:06:01,680 00:06:03,680 他所使用到的粉填皮就會不一樣
00:06:03,680 00:06:05,680 有吧
00:06:05,680 00:06:07,680 這個會議記錄上面有這樣寫吧
00:06:07,680 00:06:09,680 有這樣子的
00:06:09,680 00:06:11,680 那我就很好奇啊
00:06:11,680 00:06:13,680 如果我們今天針對食安標準
00:06:13,680 00:06:15,680 因為採取零容忍的標準
00:06:15,680 00:06:17,680 這一次民進黨一直跟大家講的
00:06:17,680 00:06:19,680 食安五環食安零容忍
00:06:19,680 00:06:21,680 結果你召開一個食安會議
00:06:21,680 00:06:23,680 有的專家認為20%就可以
00:06:23,680 00:06:25,680 有的專家認為說
00:06:25,680 00:06:27,680 這20%沒有考慮到劑量
00:06:27,680 00:06:29,680 可能還是有風險
00:06:29,680 00:06:31,680 結果署長在拍板定案的時候
00:06:31,680 00:06:33,680 忽略了對食安比較重視的專家
00:06:33,680 00:06:35,680 反而聽信了
00:06:35,680 00:06:37,680 對食安比較寬鬆的專家
00:06:37,680 00:06:39,680 我不知道為什麼署長您對於食安
00:06:39,680 00:06:41,680 是這樣子的態度
00:06:41,680 00:06:43,680 可是同學我現在給您
00:06:43,680 00:06:45,680 留意一步回答
00:06:45,680 00:06:47,680 這個扁平皮8.1ppp
00:06:47,680 00:06:49,680 按照我們的所謂的
00:06:49,680 00:06:51,680 暴露算起來的
00:06:51,680 00:06:53,680 Margin of Social MOE
00:06:53,680 00:06:55,680 大於1萬
00:06:55,680 00:06:57,680 他是可忽略的
00:06:57,680 00:06:59,680 更何況呢下降到20%
00:06:59,680 00:07:01,680 從科學上面他是這樣
00:07:01,680 00:07:03,680 但是安全跟安心
00:07:03,680 00:07:05,680 國人對於食品的安心
00:07:05,680 00:07:07,680 需要我更多的努力
00:07:07,680 00:07:09,680 更多的溝通
00:07:09,680 00:07:11,680 所以這個過程中
00:07:11,680 00:07:13,680 MOE這件事情相當複雜
00:07:13,680 00:07:15,680 有機會可以上課
00:07:15,680 00:07:17,680 署長我都聽過了
00:07:17,680 00:07:19,680 署長所以你的意思是說
00:07:19,680 00:07:21,680 食安的專報
00:07:21,680 00:07:23,680 就是食安專家來各合言而至
00:07:23,680 00:07:25,680 反正你心中有定見
00:07:25,680 00:07:27,680 最後就是你來拍板擺這件事
00:07:27,680 00:07:29,680 因為我現在問你的問題
00:07:29,680 00:07:31,680 就是說那麼多食安專家
00:07:31,680 00:07:33,680 在討論結果你只聽信了
00:07:33,680 00:07:35,680 那些對食安標準比較寬鬆的
00:07:35,680 00:07:37,680 而對食安比較嚴謹的專家
00:07:37,680 00:07:39,680 你就忽略結果你講的是你自己的看法
00:07:39,680 00:07:41,680 代表說你自己就有這個
00:07:41,680 00:07:43,680 定見20%就是你將至剛
00:07:43,680 00:07:45,680 定的那如果是這樣的話
00:07:45,680 00:07:47,680 後來何必下架總統為什麼
00:07:47,680 00:07:49,680 在六天後發文說該下架就下架
00:07:49,680 00:07:51,680 我跟我講安全跟安心
00:07:51,680 00:07:53,680 所以是總統總統
00:07:53,680 00:07:55,680 沒有聽信你的專業意見是不是
00:07:55,680 00:07:57,680 跟全世界的獨立的專家
00:07:57,680 00:07:59,680 應該比較偏向
00:07:59,680 00:08:01,680 沒關係這個我想
00:08:01,680 00:08:03,680 我想這個7月4號專家會議
00:08:03,680 00:08:05,680 開完之後剛剛大家也都聽到了
00:08:05,680 00:08:07,680 那麼多專家表達意見
00:08:07,680 00:08:09,680 組長的意思就是以自己的意見
00:08:09,680 00:08:11,680 來決定20%
00:08:11,680 00:08:13,680 你剛剛就是用你自己的意見在講
00:08:13,680 00:08:15,680 我剛剛問你說那麼多專家不同意見
00:08:15,680 00:08:17,680 為什麼你採用了那個居專家意見
00:08:17,680 00:08:19,680 你說沒有講一大堆你的自己的意見
00:08:19,680 00:08:21,680 所以你就是自己來判斷
00:08:21,680 00:08:23,680 20%應該下架
00:08:23,680 00:08:25,680 謝謝組長請回
00:08:25,680 00:08:27,680 那我請經濟部長
00:08:27,680 00:08:29,680 希望你不要跟那個署長一樣
00:08:29,680 00:08:31,680 我們就是認識討論問題
00:08:31,680 00:08:33,680 那種品質一樣不會加分
00:08:33,680 00:08:35,680 不會對民進黨政府加分
00:08:35,680 00:08:37,680 那個部長
00:08:37,680 00:08:39,680 我今天早上聽了很多民黨立委
00:08:39,680 00:08:41,680 用了各式各樣的比喻
00:08:41,680 00:08:43,680 在比喻說台銅到底要不通報
00:08:43,680 00:08:45,680 我其實也是覺得很匪夷所思
00:08:45,680 00:08:47,680 有一位立委講說偽鈔要通報
00:08:47,680 00:08:49,680 什麼黃金存度不足就不用通報
00:08:49,680 00:08:51,680 黃金存度不足是會影響到
00:08:51,680 00:08:53,680 什麼食安的問題嗎
00:08:53,680 00:08:55,680 還是黃金存度不足你買了之後
00:08:55,680 00:08:57,680 會影響到什麼市場秩序的問題嗎
00:08:57,680 00:08:59,680 現在大家在討論這個問題
00:08:59,680 00:09:01,680 為什麼在討論原料
00:09:01,680 00:09:03,680 為什麼要採用高標準
00:09:03,680 00:09:05,680 如果驗出來本便品超標要通報
00:09:05,680 00:09:07,680 就是因為大家可能會讓人家
00:09:07,680 00:09:09,680 吃到肚子裡面會影響到健康
00:09:09,680 00:09:11,680 所以不要再用不仁不惠的比喻
00:09:11,680 00:09:13,680 那我覺得經濟部
00:09:13,680 00:09:15,680 我不知道部長您這個貼文
00:09:15,680 00:09:17,680 在PO出來之前你有沒有看過
00:09:17,680 00:09:19,680 我們來看一下你的貼文
00:09:19,680 00:09:21,680 一開始的時候經濟部為了幫台銅護航
00:09:21,680 00:09:23,680 說再次
00:09:23,680 00:09:25,680 再次證實
00:09:25,680 00:09:27,680 要讓客人安心
00:09:27,680 00:09:29,680 從原料到產品
00:09:29,680 00:09:31,680 台銅都是用高標準自我檢驗
00:09:31,680 00:09:33,680 自己的好寶寶
00:09:33,680 00:09:35,680 然後後來
00:09:35,680 00:09:37,680 在下午不到一個多小時
00:09:37,680 00:09:39,680 就把它改了
00:09:39,680 00:09:41,680 改成說再次提醒什麼
00:09:41,680 00:09:43,680 要讓客人安心從原料到產品
00:09:43,680 00:09:45,680 台銅都是用高標準自我檢驗
00:09:45,680 00:09:47,680 自己的乖寶寶
00:09:47,680 00:09:49,680 所以
00:09:49,680 00:09:51,680 大家就開始討論了
00:09:51,680 00:09:53,680 好寶寶跟乖寶寶差別在哪裡
00:09:53,680 00:09:55,680 部長我問一下
00:09:55,680 00:09:57,680 從好寶寶改到乖寶寶
00:09:57,680 00:09:59,680 是為了什麼
00:09:59,680 00:10:01,680 然後好寶寶是什麼意思
00:10:01,680 00:10:03,680 就這個個案上面
00:10:03,680 00:10:05,680 報告委員
00:10:05,680 00:10:07,680 因為我們知道就是說
00:10:07,680 00:10:09,680 台銅公司是依法行政
00:10:09,680 00:10:11,680 按照相關的規定管理
00:10:11,680 00:10:13,680 他們有SOP
00:10:13,680 00:10:15,680 為什麼要把好寶寶改成乖寶寶差別在哪
00:10:15,680 00:10:17,680 就是主管機關的要求
00:10:17,680 00:10:19,680 他們通通有達到
00:10:19,680 00:10:21,680 很好還是乖
00:10:21,680 00:10:23,680 那為什麼不好
00:10:23,680 00:10:25,680 他也很好也很乖
00:10:25,680 00:10:27,680 那為什麼
00:10:27,680 00:10:29,680 好寶寶要改成乖寶寶
00:10:29,680 00:10:31,680 你應該改成好寶寶跟乖寶寶
00:10:31,680 00:10:33,680 然後乖寶寶
00:10:33,680 00:10:35,680 你的意思是說主管機關
00:10:35,680 00:10:37,680 有要求他有做到所以很乖
00:10:37,680 00:10:39,680 但是不夠好是因為他不夠主動
00:10:39,680 00:10:41,680 我們下次就再把它改成
00:10:41,680 00:10:43,680 好加乖好了
00:10:43,680 00:10:45,680 那你這次改的意思是什麼
00:10:45,680 00:10:47,680 我們想要了解一下經濟部
00:10:47,680 00:10:49,680 我們都做了一個
00:10:49,680 00:10:51,680 官就是我們行政院
00:10:51,680 00:10:53,680 下面這麼大部會
00:10:53,680 00:10:55,680 每一個治當國人都想要知道
00:10:55,680 00:10:57,680 當你用詞譴制你的意思是什麼
00:10:57,680 00:10:59,680 好改成乖是為什麼
00:10:59,680 00:11:01,680 乖你剛剛講了乖是說
00:11:01,680 00:11:03,680 主管機關的要求都有做到
00:11:03,680 00:11:05,680 那好咧而且你把好改成乖
00:11:05,680 00:11:07,680 沒有那麼好但是有點乖
00:11:07,680 00:11:09,680 是這個意思嗎
00:11:09,680 00:11:11,680 重點還是在
00:11:11,680 00:11:13,680 因為你們的貼文
00:11:13,680 00:11:15,680 就是你們的立場
00:11:15,680 00:11:17,680 今天如果不是經濟
00:11:17,680 00:11:19,680 他粉專不是經濟部
00:11:19,680 00:11:21,680 他是經濟部之友
00:11:21,680 00:11:23,680 或者是經濟部的什麼
00:11:23,680 00:11:25,680 我們就沒有人會拿來討論
00:11:25,680 00:11:27,680 經濟部其實就是你講的啦
00:11:27,680 00:11:29,680 因為你是部長啦經濟部就是你講
00:11:29,680 00:11:31,680 像總統臉書大家就認為是總統講的嘛
00:11:31,680 00:11:33,680 不會認為是總統小編講的嘛
00:11:33,680 00:11:35,680 所以我真的不知道
00:11:35,680 00:11:37,680 扯這個到底是要幹嘛
00:11:37,680 00:11:39,680 後面那個我覺得更荒謬了
00:11:39,680 00:11:41,680 這個部長你也看一下
00:11:41,680 00:11:43,680 一開始的時候講說
00:11:43,680 00:11:45,680 但是通報義務不要違憲上綱
00:11:45,680 00:11:47,680 如果餐廳去菜市場買菜
00:11:47,680 00:11:51,680 要求採購人員把看到所有的爛菜都要通報
00:11:51,680 00:11:53,680 這是檢舉達人做的事
00:11:53,680 00:11:55,680 不是食品業者的業務
00:11:55,680 00:11:57,680 就是說如果看到爛菜
00:11:57,680 00:11:59,680 要去檢舉是檢舉達人喔
00:11:59,680 00:12:01,680 不是食品業者然後後來又把
00:12:01,680 00:12:03,680 檢舉達人這幾個字改掉了
00:12:03,680 00:12:05,680 但是還是一樣
00:12:05,680 00:12:07,680 就是說食品業者餐廳去買菜
00:12:07,680 00:12:09,680 如果看到爛菜是不用通報的
00:12:09,680 00:12:11,680 那你們是不是一開始覺得
00:12:11,680 00:12:13,680 把檢舉達人來比喻不倫不類是不是
00:12:13,680 00:12:15,680 後來就把它改掉是不是
00:12:15,680 00:12:17,680 八委員剛剛是用比喻的方法
00:12:17,680 00:12:19,680 希望讓簡單的讓
00:12:19,680 00:12:21,680 一般民眾可以了解
00:12:21,680 00:12:23,680 對啊
00:12:23,680 00:12:25,680 那你幹嘛改
00:12:25,680 00:12:27,680 但是這個如果
00:12:27,680 00:12:29,680 最終還是要回歸到這個
00:12:29,680 00:12:31,680 法律跟法條上的這個解釋
00:12:31,680 00:12:33,680 所以你也覺得不妥嘛
00:12:33,680 00:12:35,680 那你後來講的這個什麼爛菜
00:12:35,680 00:12:37,680 我也覺得不妥啦為什麼
00:12:37,680 00:12:39,680 因為爛菜吃了
00:12:39,680 00:12:41,680 不會
00:12:41,680 00:12:43,680 有我們講的什麼生癌症的問題
00:12:45,680 00:12:47,680 那我舉這個例子就是說
00:12:47,680 00:12:49,680 我覺得大家不要再用不倫不類的比喻在那邊講了
00:12:49,680 00:12:51,680 今天之前食安法
00:12:51,680 00:12:53,680 它
00:12:53,680 00:12:55,680 其實很重要就是要求
00:12:55,680 00:12:57,680 業者自主管理為什麼呢
00:12:57,680 00:12:59,680 因為每一天那麼多食品
00:12:59,680 00:13:01,680 生產那麼多的油生產那麼多的食品
00:13:01,680 00:13:03,680 如果你要地方政府全部都
00:13:03,680 00:13:05,680 普查的方式來防止
00:13:05,680 00:13:07,680 有癌症的東西出來
00:13:07,680 00:13:09,680 不可能的事情
00:13:09,680 00:13:11,680 所以用抽查但是主要是靠業者
00:13:11,680 00:13:13,680 自主管理沒有以前精神
00:13:13,680 00:13:15,680 是這樣嘛因為你不可能全部都是
00:13:15,680 00:13:17,680 抽查不然就變普查了嘛
00:13:17,680 00:13:19,680 那還有一個重點就是要靠上中
00:13:19,680 00:13:21,680 下游的相互簽字
00:13:21,680 00:13:23,680 譬如說下游的買到上游
00:13:23,680 00:13:25,680 東西一驗發現說有問題
00:13:25,680 00:13:27,680 馬上通報互相簽字
00:13:27,680 00:13:29,680 那台中這個問題為什麼大家
00:13:29,680 00:13:31,680 認為說他沒有通報是一個
00:13:31,680 00:13:33,680 很大的問題我更不得因為你們都完全不了解
00:13:33,680 00:13:35,680 大家在講什麼
00:13:35,680 00:13:37,680 問題就是其實他就是上中下游
00:13:37,680 00:13:39,680 的一環嘛他今天
00:13:39,680 00:13:41,680 有買到不管是脫膠原油
00:13:41,680 00:13:43,680 或什麼最後不是食品的東西
00:13:43,680 00:13:45,680 那你驗出來本品比超標
00:13:45,680 00:13:47,680 實際上通如果有通報的話
00:13:47,680 00:13:49,680 大家就多一層安心
00:13:49,680 00:13:51,680 而且剛剛我聽到其他委員
00:13:51,680 00:13:53,680 在質詢台湯的時候確實
00:13:53,680 00:13:55,680 證明了一件事情就是以前
00:13:55,680 00:13:57,680 買的脫膠原油都沒有
00:13:57,680 00:13:59,680 本品比超標但這次
00:13:59,680 00:14:01,680 買的就有超標
00:14:01,680 00:14:03,680 超標的好像七倍還八倍非常
00:14:03,680 00:14:05,680 高就已經很不尋常了
00:14:05,680 00:14:07,680 然後事實也證明這一次
00:14:07,680 00:14:09,680 確實中聯所生產出來的那些
00:14:09,680 00:14:11,680 不管是精油也好食品也好
00:14:11,680 00:14:13,680 都有一些就有本品比超標
00:14:13,680 00:14:15,680 可能是原料的問題所以你有沒有發現
00:14:15,680 00:14:17,680 如果這一次台湯
00:14:17,680 00:14:19,680 五月中的時候有通報的話
00:14:19,680 00:14:21,680 實際上大家很可能
00:14:21,680 00:14:23,680 就根據這個線索去查到了
00:14:23,680 00:14:25,680 中聯其他的油可能
00:14:25,680 00:14:27,680 有問題就可以讓大家少吃
00:14:27,680 00:14:29,680 很多天的本品比啊
00:14:29,680 00:14:31,680 所以這個問題重點在這裡嘛
00:14:31,680 00:14:33,680 結果我每次我看到
00:14:33,680 00:14:35,680 很多委員都在質詢部長
00:14:35,680 00:14:37,680 或是外服部都在玩文字遊戲
00:14:37,680 00:14:39,680 都在那邊講說這個到底是
00:14:39,680 00:14:41,680 原料這不是食品的原料
00:14:41,680 00:14:43,680 原料是大豆
00:14:43,680 00:14:45,680 他是脫膠原油全部都在講
00:14:45,680 00:14:47,680 文字遊戲那你有把人民
00:14:47,680 00:14:49,680 的健康放在心裡嗎
00:14:49,680 00:14:51,680 如果你多做一點事情
00:14:51,680 00:14:53,680 人民就少吃非常
00:14:53,680 00:14:55,680 多天的本品比耶
00:14:55,680 00:14:57,680 所以你們到現在還是一直
00:14:57,680 00:14:59,680 我都不覺得說我們要做更好
00:14:59,680 00:15:01,680 都還在啊我覺得大家真的
00:15:01,680 00:15:03,680 我覺得大家真的會看不下去
00:15:03,680 00:15:05,680 然後更不要說
00:15:05,680 00:15:07,680 台湯是國營事業
00:15:07,680 00:15:09,680 國營政府是一體的耶
00:15:09,680 00:15:11,680 部長請你回應一下
00:15:11,680 00:15:13,680 八位委員
00:15:13,680 00:15:15,680 台湯查到311油桶
00:15:15,680 00:15:17,680 基本上已經
00:15:17,680 00:15:19,680 簽封起來現在還在中聯
00:15:19,680 00:15:21,680 那是誰
00:15:21,680 00:15:23,680 那一批基本上是後話
00:15:23,680 00:15:25,680 那如果中聯把它賣出去了
00:15:25,680 00:15:27,680 賣出去的話中聯就
00:15:27,680 00:15:29,680 很大的問題
00:15:29,680 00:15:31,680 所以他沒有賣出
00:15:31,680 00:15:33,680 你現在是用結果論
00:15:33,680 00:15:35,680 你說因為他沒賣所以沒差
00:15:35,680 00:15:37,680 但是如果中聯把它賣你剛剛就說有問題
00:15:37,680 00:15:39,680 所以台湯
00:15:39,680 00:15:41,680 就是應該通報
00:15:41,680 00:15:43,680 不管他有沒有賣
00:15:43,680 00:15:45,680 因為他有可能會賣
00:15:45,680 00:15:47,680 所以台湯就是應該通報
00:15:47,680 00:15:49,680 因為上中下游
00:15:49,680 00:15:51,680 就是要互相簽字
00:15:51,680 00:15:53,680 因為中聯他
00:15:53,680 00:15:55,680 被認為他有超標
00:15:55,680 00:15:57,680 就是有比較高的情況下
00:15:57,680 00:15:59,680 他有幾種方式
00:15:59,680 00:16:01,680 第一個他可以不要用使用的
00:16:01,680 00:16:03,680 第二個他經驗過程可以多幾道
00:16:03,680 00:16:05,680 那成本差很多
00:16:05,680 00:16:07,680 所以為什麼台湯公司不願意接受
00:16:07,680 00:16:09,680 因為他
00:16:09,680 00:16:11,680 這樣的一個標準
00:16:11,680 00:16:13,680 他在經驗過程當中要花很多很多的成本進去
00:16:13,680 00:16:15,680 所以
00:16:15,680 00:16:17,680 這個我都知道這個不能放我
00:16:17,680 00:16:19,680 我覺得不要讓他回去你回答別人都這樣
00:16:19,680 00:16:21,680 但我覺得關鍵是你有沒有發現
00:16:21,680 00:16:23,680 他台湯
00:16:23,680 00:16:25,680 以前都沒有買過
00:16:25,680 00:16:27,680 等評比超標這麼高的有
00:16:27,680 00:16:29,680 剛剛台湯講的嘛
00:16:29,680 00:16:31,680 然後這一次
00:16:31,680 00:16:33,680 他買到了
00:16:33,680 00:16:35,680 他退回去不關我的事了反正我不用就好
00:16:35,680 00:16:37,680 據收
00:16:37,680 00:16:39,680 他據收
00:16:39,680 00:16:41,680 這就不關我的事了反正我沒用就好
00:16:41,680 00:16:43,680 可是你有沒有發現
00:16:43,680 00:16:45,680 實際上整批不是只有這一桶
00:16:45,680 00:16:47,680 整批
00:16:47,680 00:16:49,680 整批的中聯有一大堆出問題
00:16:49,680 00:16:51,680 所以如果台湯
00:16:51,680 00:16:53,680 如果台湯五月多就有通報的話
00:16:53,680 00:16:55,680 實際上
00:16:55,680 00:16:57,680 搞不好政府就可以去追查
00:16:57,680 00:16:59,680 就可以防止這麼多有問題
00:16:59,680 00:17:01,680 有流入市面讓民眾吃到
00:17:01,680 00:17:03,680 所以你今天
00:17:03,680 00:17:05,679 一直在講台湯好寶寶白寶寶
00:17:05,679 00:17:07,679 台湯就不夠好嘛如果他更好一點的話
00:17:07,679 00:17:09,679 他就通報
00:17:09,679 00:17:11,679 就可以讓大家不用吃到本便皮
00:17:11,679 00:17:13,679 而不是還需要經濟部出來發這種奇怪的文
00:17:13,679 00:17:15,679 所以請你們
00:17:15,679 00:17:17,679 跟台湯講好不好
00:17:17,679 00:17:19,679 這個這一次國營事業做個好寶寶
00:17:19,680 00:17:21,680 幫助大家不要吃到本便皮
00:17:21,680 00:17:23,680 一驗到原料就通報
00:17:23,680 00:17:25,680 就可能就不會有這些問題了
00:17:25,680 00:17:27,680 好不好謝謝部長
00:17:27,680 00:17:29,680 謝謝謝謝
00:17:29,680 00:17:31,680 好謝謝部長謝謝
00:17:31,680 00:17:33,680 原則委員