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王育敏 @ 第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:07,500 | 好 謝謝主席 我們有請衛福部部長 食藥署署長 |
| 00:00:07,500 | 00:00:12,000 | 經濟部常務次長 台廠的副總 一起上台 |
| 00:00:12,000 | 00:00:15,500 | 還有行政院食安辦的徐副主任 |
| 00:00:15,500 | 00:00:22,000 | 來 我先問那個台廠的副總 |
| 00:00:22,000 | 00:00:24,500 | 你們剛拿了兩罐繼續拿上來沒有關係 |
| 00:00:25,500 | 00:00:33,500 | 來 你告訴本席脫膠原油是你台廠的製油原料嗎 是或不是 |
| 00:00:33,500 | 00:00:39,500 | 我們台廠做沙拉油是從黃豆開始 |
| 00:00:39,500 | 00:00:42,500 | 我們進口的都是美國黃豆 |
| 00:00:42,500 | 00:00:48,500 | 好 我直接問你 你跟中聯買的脫膠原油就是這一罐對不對 |
| 00:00:48,500 | 00:00:51,500 | 對 我們自己也有生產 |
| 00:00:51,500 | 00:00:55,500 | 這一罐是不是你使用有的原料 是或不是 |
| 00:00:55,500 | 00:01:01,500 | 它不能使用 它必須要經過 它必須要經過精煉 |
| 00:01:01,500 | 00:01:05,500 | 我知道 它是不是原料 當然是原料 |
| 00:01:05,500 | 00:01:07,500 | 對啊 當然是原料啊 |
| 00:01:07,500 | 00:01:11,500 | 你跟中聯買了多少 它不是食品加 |
| 00:01:11,500 | 00:01:14,500 | 你本來要跟他購買那一批是多少公噸 |
| 00:01:14,500 | 00:01:17,500 | 我們這內製的超標案是三千噸 |
| 00:01:17,500 | 00:01:19,500 | 三千噸嘛 對不對 |
| 00:01:19,500 | 00:01:27,500 | 那它5月11號我們去豐朝送驗的那個草 |
| 00:01:27,500 | 00:01:30,500 | 那個草它是一千一百多噸 |
| 00:01:30,500 | 00:01:33,500 | 都出問題嘛 超標嘛 對不對 |
| 00:01:33,500 | 00:01:38,500 | 那個草我們當初就是豐存了 我們也沒有載到 |
| 00:01:38,500 | 00:01:40,500 | 以前有沒有發生過這樣的情況 |
| 00:01:40,500 | 00:01:43,500 | 以前你們驗的有沒有發生這樣的情況 |
| 00:01:43,500 | 00:01:45,500 | 也有超標的情況 退驗的情況 |
| 00:01:45,500 | 00:01:47,500 | 以前驗都沒有這樣的狀況 |
| 00:01:47,500 | 00:01:49,500 | 都沒有超標嗎 |
| 00:01:49,500 | 00:01:51,500 | 都有符合我們的驗收標準 |
| 00:01:51,500 | 00:01:54,500 | 是多少 你們自己制定的驗收標準是要 |
| 00:01:54,500 | 00:01:57,500 | 那個本評比要幾ppb |
| 00:01:57,500 | 00:01:59,500 | 本評比是兩ppb |
| 00:01:59,500 | 00:02:02,500 | 都有符合在兩ppb以內嘛 對不對 |
| 00:02:02,500 | 00:02:06,500 | 那你為什麼要這樣子驗 你是依據食安法哪一條 |
| 00:02:06,500 | 00:02:11,500 | 沒有 這個是我們自己內定的一個招標的規格 |
| 00:02:11,500 | 00:02:13,500 | 所以你也可以不用驗就對了 可以 |
| 00:02:13,500 | 00:02:17,500 | 所以如果本評比超標 你們可以繼續製作就對了 |
| 00:02:17,500 | 00:02:21,500 | 我們會調整我們的製程 讓它那個本評比 |
| 00:02:21,500 | 00:02:24,500 | 那你這一批為什麼要退 如果按照你的邏輯 |
| 00:02:24,500 | 00:02:26,500 | 這個是我們招標合約裡頭 |
| 00:02:26,500 | 00:02:28,500 | 我們就已經定了規格在那裡 |
| 00:02:28,500 | 00:02:31,500 | 一定要符合我們的規格 不符合規格我們就是要退 |
| 00:02:31,500 | 00:02:35,500 | 那為什麼要定這個標準 既然你後面的技術都可以脫色脫酸 |
| 00:02:35,500 | 00:02:37,500 | 剛剛那個 待會我要問部長 |
| 00:02:37,500 | 00:02:39,500 | 那個成本會不一樣啊 |
| 00:02:39,500 | 00:02:41,500 | 成本會不一樣 |
| 00:02:41,500 | 00:02:45,500 | 所以不是因為食安法 是因為成本的關係 |
| 00:02:45,500 | 00:02:46,500 | 是 沒有錯 |
| 00:02:46,500 | 00:02:48,500 | 沒有錯 這是你的答案喔 |
| 00:02:48,500 | 00:02:53,500 | 你們針對原料的管理 是因為我不需要基本的嚴格把關 |
| 00:02:53,500 | 00:02:58,500 | 我是因為成本控制 所以我今天才去定出2ppb的 |
| 00:02:58,500 | 00:03:00,500 | 這樣的本評比的標準 |
| 00:03:00,500 | 00:03:06,500 | 就算說它本評比偏高 經過我們的精煉製程上面的調整 |
| 00:03:06,500 | 00:03:11,500 | 所以你之前到底有沒有購買過超過2ppb本評比的 |
| 00:03:11,500 | 00:03:15,500 | 是沒有啦 因為我們都定那個2ppb嘛 |
| 00:03:15,500 | 00:03:18,500 | 這樣的話對我們來講是整個製程會比較順暢 |
| 00:03:18,500 | 00:03:20,500 | 而且它成本是最低的 |
| 00:03:20,500 | 00:03:22,500 | 所以過去都沒有 沒有 |
| 00:03:22,500 | 00:03:26,500 | 然後你就定了2ppb 是 就定了國家的這個標準 |
| 00:03:26,500 | 00:03:28,500 | 那超標你也可以用 |
| 00:03:28,500 | 00:03:31,500 | 完全不涉及食安 |
| 00:03:31,500 | 00:03:34,500 | 這個聽起來非常的可怕 大家各位聽懂了嗎 |
| 00:03:34,500 | 00:03:38,500 | 就是說台糖也可以不用是2ppb喔 |
| 00:03:38,500 | 00:03:40,500 | 它不用是這樣子喔 |
| 00:03:40,500 | 00:03:44,500 | 因為對他們來講 剛剛石部長告訴大家的也是喔 |
| 00:03:44,500 | 00:03:46,500 | 就是即使它是原料 |
| 00:03:46,500 | 00:03:48,500 | 它今天超標沒有關係 |
| 00:03:48,500 | 00:03:51,500 | 其實坦白講你也可以不用退運啦 對不對 |
| 00:03:51,500 | 00:03:53,500 | 按照你的邏輯也可以不用退運啦 |
| 00:03:53,500 | 00:03:55,500 | 我繼續做 你沒有違反食安法 |
| 00:03:55,500 | 00:03:58,500 | 我們招標的時候的規格 |
| 00:03:58,500 | 00:04:00,500 | 你們太荒謬了 |
| 00:04:00,500 | 00:04:03,500 | 都不按照食安法辦事的嗎 |
| 00:04:03,500 | 00:04:06,500 | 既然脫交原有是你的原料 |
| 00:04:06,500 | 00:04:09,500 | 原料有疑慮的時候 |
| 00:04:09,500 | 00:04:12,500 | 原料有疑慮你竟然還好意思說 |
| 00:04:12,500 | 00:04:14,500 | 我的技術夠 |
| 00:04:14,500 | 00:04:16,500 | 所以我可以繼續做 |
| 00:04:16,500 | 00:04:18,500 | 剛剛石崇良部長也是這樣子講 |
| 00:04:18,500 | 00:04:20,500 | 這樣子有道理嗎 |
| 00:04:20,500 | 00:04:22,500 | 這樣子有道理嗎 |
| 00:04:22,500 | 00:04:24,500 | 食安法它規格不斷的 |
| 00:04:24,500 | 00:04:26,500 | 所以你們是說只要是出交原有 |
| 00:04:26,500 | 00:04:28,500 | 根本就不用設標準 |
| 00:04:28,500 | 00:04:30,500 | 反正只要我可以不斷的精煉 |
| 00:04:30,500 | 00:04:32,500 | 到最終的產品 |
| 00:04:32,500 | 00:04:34,500 | 只要符合2PPB就好了 |
| 00:04:34,500 | 00:04:37,500 | 那你的食安法我們都要定假的嗎 |
| 00:04:37,500 | 00:04:39,500 | 從原料就應該要開始檢驗 |
| 00:04:39,500 | 00:04:41,500 | 在你的邏輯裡面 |
| 00:04:41,500 | 00:04:43,500 | 原料不需要 |
| 00:04:43,500 | 00:04:45,500 | 只要我有本事把它精煉出 |
| 00:04:45,500 | 00:04:46,500 | 檢測不到 |
| 00:04:46,500 | 00:04:47,500 | 那是我的本事 |
| 00:04:47,500 | 00:04:48,500 | 是這樣子嗎 |
| 00:04:48,500 | 00:04:50,500 | 沒有 出油它不能 |
| 00:04:50,500 | 00:04:52,500 | 它就長這個樣子 |
| 00:04:52,500 | 00:04:54,500 | 那是你的原料不是嗎 |
| 00:04:54,500 | 00:04:56,500 | 這個是 對呀 |
| 00:04:56,500 | 00:04:57,500 | 這個就是出油 |
| 00:04:57,500 | 00:04:59,500 | 對呀 那你的原料就應該要把關 |
| 00:04:59,500 | 00:05:01,500 | 就要符合食安法的規範 |
| 00:05:01,500 | 00:05:03,500 | 原料沒有規範 |
| 00:05:03,500 | 00:05:05,500 | 食安法都沒有規範 |
| 00:05:05,500 | 00:05:07,500 | 那就是衛福部食品 |
| 00:05:07,500 | 00:05:09,500 | 食安法它的規範 |
| 00:05:09,500 | 00:05:11,500 | 它是針對食品 |
| 00:05:11,500 | 00:05:13,500 | 就是說你直接可以用的 |
| 00:05:13,500 | 00:05:15,500 | 原料都不規範的 |
| 00:05:15,500 | 00:05:17,500 | 原料已經出現 |
| 00:05:17,500 | 00:05:19,500 | 一幾次癌物都不用規範的 |
| 00:05:19,500 | 00:05:21,500 | 它不是有一律的商品嗎 |
| 00:05:21,500 | 00:05:23,500 | 沒有 你經過精煉 |
| 00:05:23,500 | 00:05:25,500 | 存化之後 |
| 00:05:25,500 | 00:05:27,500 | 它就會變成這個樣子 |
| 00:05:27,500 | 00:05:29,500 | 所以原料是可以不用管的 |
| 00:05:29,500 | 00:05:31,500 | 要管 因為它會影響成本 |
| 00:05:31,500 | 00:05:33,500 | 只是因為成本不是食安的考量 |
| 00:05:33,500 | 00:05:35,500 | 好 來台長請回去 |
| 00:05:35,500 | 00:05:37,500 | 我問一下那個 |
| 00:05:37,500 | 00:05:39,500 | 經濟部長次 |
| 00:05:39,500 | 00:05:41,500 | 請問台長的社會責任是什麼 |
| 00:05:41,500 | 00:05:43,500 | 至少門前雪 |
| 00:05:43,500 | 00:05:45,500 | 我今天發現 |
| 00:05:45,500 | 00:05:47,500 | 我的脫膠原油 |
| 00:05:47,500 | 00:05:49,500 | 這個本便品超標 |
| 00:05:49,500 | 00:05:51,500 | 超標了七倍 |
| 00:05:51,500 | 00:05:53,500 | 我只要默默的把它退回去就好 |
| 00:05:53,500 | 00:05:55,500 | 因為不符合我的採購規定 |
| 00:05:55,500 | 00:05:57,500 | 但是我完全不需要 |
| 00:05:57,500 | 00:05:59,500 | 我完全不需要通報 |
| 00:05:59,500 | 00:06:01,500 | 這個叫做至少門前雪 |
| 00:06:01,500 | 00:06:03,500 | 在經濟部的標準好低 |
| 00:06:03,500 | 00:06:05,500 | 一個至少門前雪的人 |
| 00:06:05,500 | 00:06:07,500 | 說他是模範生 |
| 00:06:07,500 | 00:06:09,500 | 請問你的社會責任在哪裡 |
| 00:06:09,500 | 00:06:11,500 | 你不覺得很異常嗎 |
| 00:06:11,500 | 00:06:13,500 | 今天你脫膠原油是第一次買 |
| 00:06:13,500 | 00:06:15,500 | 是不是 如果以前都是 |
| 00:06:15,500 | 00:06:17,500 | 符合標準 符合你的採購標準 |
| 00:06:17,500 | 00:06:19,500 | 今天突然暴增 |
| 00:06:19,500 | 00:06:21,500 | 通通都不需要反應 |
| 00:06:21,500 | 00:06:23,500 | 當作沒有發生 |
| 00:06:23,500 | 00:06:25,500 | 上千公噸 |
| 00:06:25,500 | 00:06:27,500 | 隨便 |
| 00:06:27,500 | 00:06:29,500 | 今天如果中年繼續賣出去 |
| 00:06:29,500 | 00:06:31,500 | 也隨便 |
| 00:06:31,500 | 00:06:33,500 | 不管我的事 |
| 00:06:33,500 | 00:06:35,500 | 這個叫做模範生 |
| 00:06:35,500 | 00:06:37,500 | 這個叫做社會責任 |
| 00:06:37,500 | 00:06:39,500 | 企業社會責任是這樣子寫的 |
| 00:06:39,500 | 00:06:41,500 | 作為一個經濟部次長 |
| 00:06:41,500 | 00:06:43,500 | 你們說這個叫模範生 |
| 00:06:43,500 | 00:06:45,500 | 你的標準真的好低 |
| 00:06:45,500 | 00:06:47,500 | 還不如一個吹哨者 |
| 00:06:47,500 | 00:06:49,500 | 跟委員會說明 |
| 00:06:49,500 | 00:06:51,500 | 台長公司所生產的產品 |
| 00:06:51,500 | 00:06:53,500 | 它有自己的標準 |
| 00:06:53,500 | 00:06:55,500 | 標標本篇皮的 |
| 00:06:55,500 | 00:06:57,500 | 要不要通報 |
| 00:06:57,500 | 00:06:59,500 | 它有驗收的規定 |
| 00:06:59,500 | 00:07:01,500 | 契約的規定 |
| 00:07:01,500 | 00:07:03,500 | 比如說在生產大多沙拉油 |
| 00:07:03,500 | 00:07:05,500 | 的原料的部分 |
| 00:07:05,500 | 00:07:07,500 | 其實它檢驗的項目起碼就有 |
| 00:07:07,500 | 00:07:09,500 | 10項以上 |
| 00:07:09,500 | 00:07:11,500 | 很好啊 我們正常很嚴謹 |
| 00:07:11,500 | 00:07:13,500 | 但你發現這一批膠油 |
| 00:07:13,500 | 00:07:15,500 | 超標這麼多的時候 |
| 00:07:15,500 | 00:07:17,500 | 你怎麼不用一個很嚴謹的態度來看待 |
| 00:07:17,500 | 00:07:19,500 | 為什麼不通報 |
| 00:07:19,500 | 00:07:21,500 | 第一時間台長有沒有跟你講 |
| 00:07:21,500 | 00:07:23,500 | 這個依照台中地方法院的新聞稿 |
| 00:07:23,500 | 00:07:25,500 | 也是有提到 |
| 00:07:25,500 | 00:07:27,500 | 包括中聯跟福茂 |
| 00:07:27,500 | 00:07:29,500 | 它必須要依照食安法去進行通報 |
| 00:07:29,500 | 00:07:31,500 | 他們有他們的責任 我現在問的是你主管的國營機構台長 |
| 00:07:31,500 | 00:07:33,500 | 他發現這麼重大 |
| 00:07:33,500 | 00:07:35,500 | 是不是需要跟你主管機構報告 |
| 00:07:35,500 | 00:07:37,500 | 你什麼時候知道的 |
| 00:07:37,500 | 00:07:39,500 | 你什麼時候知道的 |
| 00:07:39,500 | 00:07:41,500 | 你什麼時候知道的 |
| 00:07:41,500 | 00:07:43,500 | 從來沒有進入到台糖生產的產線 |
| 00:07:43,500 | 00:07:45,500 | 所以你還在辯解 |
| 00:07:45,500 | 00:07:47,500 | 7月9號的時候 |
| 00:07:47,500 | 00:07:49,500 | 台糖公司 |
| 00:07:49,500 | 00:07:51,500 | 你7月9號才知道 |
| 00:07:51,500 | 00:07:53,500 | 後知後覺 |
| 00:07:53,500 | 00:07:55,500 | 麻煩委員讓我時間說明 |
| 00:07:55,500 | 00:07:57,500 | 7月9號台糖收到高雄市政府 |
| 00:07:57,500 | 00:07:59,500 | 預防性下架一個通知 |
| 00:07:59,500 | 00:08:01,500 | 他有通報 |
| 00:08:01,500 | 00:08:03,500 | 所以你是7月9號知道的 |
| 00:08:03,500 | 00:08:05,500 | 我們國營是因為平常的 |
| 00:08:05,500 | 00:08:07,500 | 台糖公司的正常的採購的事項 |
| 00:08:07,500 | 00:08:09,500 | 包括國營機構 |
| 00:08:09,500 | 00:08:11,500 | 非常多的採購 |
| 00:08:11,500 | 00:08:13,500 | 你是7月9號知道的 |
| 00:08:13,500 | 00:08:15,500 | 他不會跟我們說明 |
| 00:08:15,500 | 00:08:17,500 | 市長我再問你 |
| 00:08:17,500 | 00:08:19,500 | 市長你覺得台糖公司 |
| 00:08:19,500 | 00:08:21,500 | 下一次他在發現這種原料 |
| 00:08:21,500 | 00:08:23,500 | 超標含有毒物質 |
| 00:08:23,500 | 00:08:25,500 | 你認為他需不需要通報 |
| 00:08:25,500 | 00:08:27,500 | 這個就是我們今天本來 |
| 00:08:27,500 | 00:08:29,500 | 議程要討論的食安法 |
| 00:08:29,500 | 00:08:31,500 | 需要去經濟農業 |
| 00:08:31,500 | 00:08:33,500 | 台糖公司依照法規去辦理 |
| 00:08:33,500 | 00:08:35,500 | 我想知道你的標準 |
| 00:08:35,500 | 00:08:37,500 | 下一次台糖發現的時候 |
| 00:08:37,500 | 00:08:39,500 | 類似這樣的情況需不需要通報 |
| 00:08:39,500 | 00:08:41,500 | 你告訴我就好 |
| 00:08:41,500 | 00:08:43,500 | 台糖公司依照法規來辦理 |
| 00:08:43,500 | 00:08:45,500 | 你覺得需不需要 |
| 00:08:45,500 | 00:08:47,500 | 市長你信不信 |
| 00:08:47,500 | 00:08:49,500 | 你根本都不敢回答這個問題 |
| 00:08:49,500 | 00:08:51,500 | 那個我只能說 |
| 00:08:51,500 | 00:08:53,500 | 非常的遺憾 |
| 00:08:53,500 | 00:08:55,500 | 這個社會有良心的人越來越少 |
| 00:08:55,500 | 00:08:57,500 | 我們很佩服陳宏達主任 |
| 00:08:57,500 | 00:08:59,500 | 檢察官還有詹長犬教授 |
| 00:08:59,500 | 00:09:01,500 | 他們是社會的良心 |
| 00:09:01,500 | 00:09:03,500 | 他們講該講的話不像現在的 |
| 00:09:03,500 | 00:09:05,500 | 官員只想護航 |
| 00:09:05,500 | 00:09:07,500 | 然後不講真話 |
| 00:09:07,500 | 00:09:09,500 | 食安法這個徐福主任 |
| 00:09:09,500 | 00:09:11,500 | 你也站過來食安法當你在 |
| 00:09:11,500 | 00:09:13,500 | 修法的時候你應該站你當時是專家學者 |
| 00:09:13,500 | 00:09:15,500 | 上一波的食安法 |
| 00:09:15,500 | 00:09:17,500 | 修法的精神 |
| 00:09:17,500 | 00:09:19,500 | 我跟大家講 |
| 00:09:19,500 | 00:09:21,500 | 他很明確告訴大家食品 |
| 00:09:21,500 | 00:09:23,500 | 包含原料 |
| 00:09:23,500 | 00:09:25,500 | 跟產品 |
| 00:09:25,500 | 00:09:27,500 | 而且他又告訴大家 |
| 00:09:27,500 | 00:09:29,500 | 這個產品 |
| 00:09:29,500 | 00:09:31,500 | 涉及到的原材料 |
| 00:09:31,500 | 00:09:33,500 | 原料半成品 |
| 00:09:33,500 | 00:09:35,500 | 成品 |
| 00:09:35,500 | 00:09:37,500 | 他都要業者做什麼 |
| 00:09:37,500 | 00:09:39,500 | 自主的檢驗把關 |
| 00:09:39,500 | 00:09:41,500 | 所以 |
| 00:09:41,500 | 00:09:43,500 | 你當時2014年所修的食安法 |
| 00:09:43,500 | 00:09:45,500 | 他的 |
| 00:09:45,500 | 00:09:47,500 | 修法的精神就是詹長犬教授 |
| 00:09:47,500 | 00:09:49,500 | 所講的 |
| 00:09:49,500 | 00:09:51,500 | 他是建立在預警 |
| 00:09:51,500 | 00:09:53,500 | 跟可控的這樣一個精神裡面 |
| 00:09:53,500 | 00:09:59,500 | 如果你今天是站在一個預警的角度 |
| 00:09:59,500 | 00:10:01,500 | 管控食安 |
| 00:10:01,500 | 00:10:03,500 | 從源頭把關 |
| 00:10:03,500 | 00:10:05,500 | 今天台糖發現 |
| 00:10:05,500 | 00:10:07,500 | 這樣的一個 |
| 00:10:07,500 | 00:10:09,500 | 原油脫膠原油 |
| 00:10:09,500 | 00:10:11,500 | 本便宜嚴重 |
| 00:10:11,500 | 00:10:13,500 | 超標的時候 |
| 00:10:13,500 | 00:10:15,500 | 作為一個國營 |
| 00:10:15,500 | 00:10:17,500 | 企業 |
| 00:10:17,500 | 00:10:19,500 | 善盡社會責任 |
| 00:10:19,500 | 00:10:21,500 | 就應該要通報 |
| 00:10:21,500 | 00:10:23,500 | 主管機關 |
| 00:10:23,500 | 00:10:25,500 | 這樣的一個做法 |
| 00:10:25,500 | 00:10:27,500 | 才符合所有食安法 |
| 00:10:27,500 | 00:10:29,500 | 你從第一條看到最後一條 |
| 00:10:29,500 | 00:10:31,500 | 他在要求的 |
| 00:10:31,500 | 00:10:33,500 | 都是從源頭的原料 |
| 00:10:33,500 | 00:10:35,500 | 管道成品 |
| 00:10:35,500 | 00:10:37,500 | 絕對不是你們現在的推托 |
| 00:10:37,500 | 00:10:39,500 | 推托之詞 |
| 00:10:39,500 | 00:10:41,500 | 什麼這個脫膠原油 |
| 00:10:41,500 | 00:10:43,500 | 不是食品 |
| 00:10:43,500 | 00:10:45,500 | 所以都不在食安法的管制範圍嗎 |
| 00:10:45,500 | 00:10:47,500 | 這樣的說法 |
| 00:10:47,500 | 00:10:49,500 | 荒謬無比 |
| 00:10:49,500 | 00:10:51,500 | 而且完全違反 |
| 00:10:51,500 | 00:10:53,500 | 食安法的精神 |
| 00:10:53,500 | 00:10:55,500 | 這個也是我相信詹長犬教授 |
| 00:10:55,500 | 00:10:57,500 | 為什麼他痛批 |
| 00:10:57,500 | 00:10:59,500 | 他說這已經是政府 |
| 00:10:59,500 | 00:11:01,500 | 誠信跟治理的問題 |
| 00:11:01,500 | 00:11:03,500 | 法律 |
| 00:11:03,500 | 00:11:05,500 | 你要從嚴或從寬解釋 |
| 00:11:05,500 | 00:11:07,500 | 的確政府你把握了公權力 |
| 00:11:07,500 | 00:11:09,500 | 你有權去解釋 |
| 00:11:09,500 | 00:11:11,500 | 但是我只能說 |
| 00:11:11,500 | 00:11:13,500 | 你要憑良心啊 |
| 00:11:13,500 | 00:11:15,500 | 食安法的精神是給你們 |
| 00:11:15,500 | 00:11:17,500 | 這樣子濫用的嗎 |
| 00:11:17,500 | 00:11:19,500 | 更何況我們再來看一下 |
| 00:11:19,500 | 00:11:21,500 | 這個衛福部 |
| 00:11:21,500 | 00:11:23,500 | 不要自己講過的事情 |
| 00:11:23,500 | 00:11:25,500 | 立刻講過就忘記 |
| 00:11:25,500 | 00:11:27,500 | 你在2014年 |
| 00:11:27,500 | 00:11:29,500 | 3月11號 |
| 00:11:29,500 | 00:11:31,500 | 那時候的整個 |
| 00:11:31,500 | 00:11:33,500 | 食藥署很正常 |
| 00:11:33,500 | 00:11:35,500 | 而且勇於認識 |
| 00:11:35,500 | 00:11:37,500 | 而且積極開會 |
| 00:11:37,500 | 00:11:39,500 | 從這個蘇丹紅 |
| 00:11:39,500 | 00:11:41,500 | 事件願意認真 |
| 00:11:41,500 | 00:11:43,500 | 去檢討而且告訴 |
| 00:11:43,500 | 00:11:45,500 | 大家就是 |
| 00:11:45,500 | 00:11:47,500 | 原料出問題 |
| 00:11:47,500 | 00:11:49,500 | 也都需要通報 |
| 00:11:49,500 | 00:11:51,500 | 因為我們拒絕 |
| 00:11:51,500 | 00:11:53,500 | 源頭不法講的非常 |
| 00:11:53,500 | 00:11:55,500 | 好這一篇新聞稿 |
| 00:11:55,500 | 00:11:57,500 | 我給100分 |
| 00:11:57,500 | 00:11:59,500 | 非常好認真做 |
| 00:11:59,500 | 00:12:01,500 | 事而且他提醒大家 |
| 00:12:01,500 | 00:12:03,500 | 食品業者 |
| 00:12:03,500 | 00:12:05,500 | 如果你發現原料 |
| 00:12:05,500 | 00:12:07,500 | 或產品 |
| 00:12:07,500 | 00:12:09,500 | 有危害衛生 |
| 00:12:09,500 | 00:12:11,500 | 安全之餘 |
| 00:12:11,500 | 00:12:13,500 | 要主動通報 |
| 00:12:13,500 | 00:12:15,500 | 直轄市縣市 |
| 00:12:15,500 | 00:12:17,500 | 主管機關 |
| 00:12:17,500 | 00:12:19,500 | 這個是2024 |
| 00:12:19,500 | 00:12:21,500 | 白紙黑字 |
| 00:12:21,500 | 00:12:23,500 | 由食藥署 |
| 00:12:23,500 | 00:12:25,500 | 發出的新聞稿 |
| 00:12:25,500 | 00:12:27,500 | 他的 |
| 00:12:27,500 | 00:12:29,500 | 校期只有兩年嗎 |
| 00:12:29,500 | 00:12:31,500 | 遇到了台廠 |
| 00:12:31,500 | 00:12:33,500 | 就會轉彎嗎 |
| 00:12:33,500 | 00:12:35,500 | 你當時這樣的 |
| 00:12:35,500 | 00:12:37,500 | 一個宣示難道 |
| 00:12:37,500 | 00:12:39,500 | 你沒有通通去告訴 |
| 00:12:39,500 | 00:12:41,500 | 所有的業者嗎 |
| 00:12:41,500 | 00:12:43,500 | 原料有問題需不需要 |
| 00:12:43,500 | 00:12:45,500 | 通報還是要通報 |
| 00:12:45,500 | 00:12:47,500 | 結果為了 |
| 00:12:47,500 | 00:12:49,500 | 替台廠開脫你現在 |
| 00:12:49,500 | 00:12:51,500 | 所有的法律重新 |
| 00:12:51,500 | 00:12:53,500 | 解釋你又倒退 |
| 00:12:53,500 | 00:12:55,500 | 回來了 |
| 00:12:55,500 | 00:12:57,500 | 2024年這件事情 |
| 00:12:57,500 | 00:12:59,500 | 我們絕對是支持 |
| 00:12:59,500 | 00:13:01,500 | 源頭就要管理這個沒有問題 |
| 00:13:01,500 | 00:13:03,500 | 你等我講完我沒有聽你發言 |
| 00:13:03,500 | 00:13:05,500 | 這件事情 |
| 00:13:05,500 | 00:13:07,500 | 真的 |
| 00:13:07,500 | 00:13:09,500 | 讓人家對於現在的 |
| 00:13:09,500 | 00:13:11,500 | 衛福部非常的 |
| 00:13:11,500 | 00:13:13,500 | 失望我要請行政院 |
| 00:13:13,500 | 00:13:15,500 | 食安辦的徐福主任你現在 |
| 00:13:15,500 | 00:13:17,500 | 站出來你作為衛福部 |
| 00:13:17,500 | 00:13:19,500 | 上級的主管機關 |
| 00:13:19,500 | 00:13:21,500 | 那個來 |
| 00:13:21,500 | 00:13:23,500 | 徐福主任你講 |
| 00:13:23,500 | 00:13:25,500 | 2014年 |
| 00:13:25,500 | 00:13:27,500 | 這個食安法的精神 |
| 00:13:27,500 | 00:13:29,500 | 是不是我們要預警 |
| 00:13:29,500 | 00:13:31,500 | 我們要做風險管理我們要從 |
| 00:13:31,500 | 00:13:33,500 | 源頭管理是或不是原則上 |
| 00:13:33,500 | 00:13:35,500 | 是這樣但是他的 |
| 00:13:35,500 | 00:13:37,500 | 樣態不一樣我剛聽 |
| 00:13:37,500 | 00:13:39,500 | 委員的這個說明 |
| 00:13:39,500 | 00:13:41,500 | 事實上從 |
| 00:13:41,500 | 00:13:43,500 | 原料來看他有分類假設 |
| 00:13:43,500 | 00:13:45,500 | 一個 |
| 00:13:45,500 | 00:13:47,500 | 微生物的含量過高 |
| 00:13:47,500 | 00:13:49,500 | 那就是要透過 |
| 00:13:49,500 | 00:13:51,500 | 不是所有的原料都需要通報 |
| 00:13:51,500 | 00:13:53,500 | 2024年食藥署的 |
| 00:13:53,500 | 00:13:55,500 | 這個公開的宣導跟新聞稿 |
| 00:13:55,500 | 00:13:57,500 | 蘇丹紅那是不得在 |
| 00:13:57,500 | 00:13:59,500 | 食品裡面去檢出他不是 |
| 00:13:59,500 | 00:14:01,500 | 一個新聞稿的範圍有效範圍 |
| 00:14:01,500 | 00:14:03,500 | 僅限於蘇丹紅嗎 |
| 00:14:03,500 | 00:14:05,500 | 你的原料是這個蘇丹 |
| 00:14:05,500 | 00:14:07,500 | 紅這三個字 |
| 00:14:07,500 | 00:14:09,500 | 不應添加的都應該要這樣 |
| 00:14:09,500 | 00:14:11,500 | 他有說不應添加嗎 |
| 00:14:11,500 | 00:14:13,500 | 你有認真看待 |
| 00:14:13,500 | 00:14:15,500 | 10 |
| 00:14:15,500 | 00:14:17,500 | 大家看一下我們 |
| 00:14:17,500 | 00:14:19,500 | 我們的法令 |
| 00:14:19,500 | 00:14:21,500 | 第15條第一項第三 |
| 00:14:21,500 | 00:14:23,500 | 是誰告訴你 |
| 00:14:23,500 | 00:14:25,500 | 是誰告訴你 |
| 00:14:25,500 | 00:14:27,500 | 要添加的才算 |
| 00:14:27,500 | 00:14:29,500 | 不是這樣講詹老師講的是 |
| 00:14:29,500 | 00:14:31,500 | 有道理但是要看樣態 |
| 00:14:31,500 | 00:14:33,500 | 你所有的生的東西 |
| 00:14:33,500 | 00:14:35,500 | 菌的數量一定 |
| 00:14:35,500 | 00:14:37,500 | 是比較多那當然是從 |
| 00:14:37,500 | 00:14:39,500 | 預警你要先殺完菌才能 |
| 00:14:39,500 | 00:14:41,500 | 再來用那你 |
| 00:14:41,500 | 00:14:43,500 | 做成調理包的變成 |
| 00:14:43,500 | 00:14:45,500 | 下游拿來用的時候他就不應該 |
| 00:14:45,500 | 00:14:47,500 | 草標所以他的這個 |
| 00:14:47,500 | 00:14:49,500 | 這樣態是會不一樣的 |
| 00:14:49,500 | 00:14:51,500 | 好那我就問你所以 |
| 00:14:51,500 | 00:14:53,500 | 脫交原有的本偏僻有多少 |
| 00:14:53,500 | 00:14:55,500 | 才合理含有多少才合理 |
| 00:14:55,500 | 00:14:57,500 | 這個全世界並沒有針對這個去 |
| 00:14:57,500 | 00:14:59,500 | 訂這個標準的 |
| 00:14:59,500 | 00:15:01,500 | 所以我們我們是在看 |
| 00:15:01,500 | 00:15:03,500 | 成品油那你的預警 |
| 00:15:03,500 | 00:15:05,500 | 機制到底怎麼做當你下游 |
| 00:15:05,500 | 00:15:07,500 | 當中年生產出來的 |
| 00:15:07,500 | 00:15:09,500 | 脫交原有本偏僻超標這麼多 |
| 00:15:09,500 | 00:15:11,500 | 你還說因為我們 |
| 00:15:11,500 | 00:15:13,500 | 沒有訂標準我不能採取任何 |
| 00:15:13,500 | 00:15:15,500 | 作為那你怎麼樣去預警 |
| 00:15:15,500 | 00:15:17,500 | 檢查出來有意義嗎 |
| 00:15:17,500 | 00:15:19,500 | 你好比說 |
| 00:15:19,500 | 00:15:21,500 | 放白土活性炭等等 |
| 00:15:21,500 | 00:15:23,500 | 下降到這個 |
| 00:15:23,500 | 00:15:25,500 | 這個合格值之下 |
| 00:15:25,500 | 00:15:27,500 | 你覺得這樣合理嗎 |
| 00:15:27,500 | 00:15:29,500 | 你覺得台糖 |
| 00:15:29,500 | 00:15:31,500 | 都不敢用了那這一波有 |
| 00:15:31,500 | 00:15:33,500 | 疑慮了然後這個 |
| 00:15:33,500 | 00:15:35,500 | 都不需要處理也不需要通報你們 |
| 00:15:35,500 | 00:15:37,500 | 現在還覺得這樣很合理 |
| 00:15:37,500 | 00:15:39,500 | 那你們如果要這樣子管理食安的話 |
| 00:15:39,500 | 00:15:41,500 | 最大的破口就是 |
| 00:15:41,500 | 00:15:43,500 | 行政院跟衛福部 |
| 00:15:43,500 | 00:15:45,500 | 你們從源頭去放鬆 |
| 00:15:45,500 | 00:15:47,500 | 我就舉台糖為例 |
| 00:15:47,500 | 00:15:49,500 | 沒有放鬆那我就問你 |
| 00:15:49,500 | 00:15:51,500 | 台糖這一批的脫交原有 |
| 00:15:51,500 | 00:15:53,500 | 為什麼需要退運 |
| 00:15:53,500 | 00:15:55,500 | 為什麼不能 |
| 00:15:55,500 | 00:15:57,500 | 再生產製造為什麼你們要 |
| 00:15:57,500 | 00:15:59,500 | 告訴大家他繼續在中年的油炒 |
| 00:15:59,500 | 00:16:01,500 | 按照你們剛剛回答的邏輯 |
| 00:16:01,500 | 00:16:03,500 | 你知道犯了多大的問題嗎 |
| 00:16:03,500 | 00:16:05,500 | 只要可以脫色脫臭 |
| 00:16:05,500 | 00:16:07,500 | 最終成品驗不出 |
| 00:16:07,500 | 00:16:09,500 | 本偏僻就好 |
| 00:16:09,500 | 00:16:11,500 | 我管你原料有多糟糕 |
| 00:16:11,500 | 00:16:13,500 | 我的技術可以精煉到這樣 |
| 00:16:13,500 | 00:16:15,500 | 就好了是這樣嗎 |
| 00:16:15,500 | 00:16:17,500 | 我們要管理確保 |
| 00:16:17,500 | 00:16:19,500 | 食安是就我們自己買的東西 |
| 00:16:19,500 | 00:16:21,500 | 所以大家從原料管理啊 |
| 00:16:21,500 | 00:16:23,500 | 怎麼會說原料不需要管理呢 |
| 00:16:23,500 | 00:16:25,500 | 這一批原料自始至終都在中年裡面 |
| 00:16:25,500 | 00:16:27,500 | 他不是台糖的 |
| 00:16:27,500 | 00:16:29,500 | 物品啊所以台糖 |
| 00:16:29,500 | 00:16:31,500 | 派人去中年看去送 |
| 00:16:31,500 | 00:16:33,500 | 驗回來知道說這一批沒 |
| 00:16:33,500 | 00:16:35,500 | 合格的可能收我提醒你 |
| 00:16:35,500 | 00:16:37,500 | 這件事情是這樣子你現在是食安辦 |
| 00:16:37,500 | 00:16:39,500 | 的主任你不是 |
| 00:16:39,500 | 00:16:41,500 | 台糖的發言人 |
| 00:16:41,500 | 00:16:43,500 | 作為一個食安辦的主任 |
| 00:16:43,500 | 00:16:45,500 | 我真的希望你有 |
| 00:16:45,500 | 00:16:47,500 | 詹長權教授這樣的勇氣跟 |
| 00:16:47,500 | 00:16:49,500 | 骨氣 |
| 00:16:49,500 | 00:16:51,500 | 這樣才能做好食安的把關 |
| 00:16:51,500 | 00:16:53,500 | 而不是遇到 |
| 00:16:53,500 | 00:16:55,500 | 事情的時候你們都變成是 |
| 00:16:55,500 | 00:16:57,500 | 護航團沒有必要 |
| 00:16:57,500 | 00:16:59,500 | 我今天沒有說台糖 |
| 00:16:59,500 | 00:17:01,500 | 有非常非常的不對 |
| 00:17:01,500 | 00:17:03,500 | 但我認為他做錯一件事情 |
| 00:17:03,500 | 00:17:05,500 | 是你至少門前 |
| 00:17:05,500 | 00:17:07,500 | 學你今天發現這麼重大的 |
| 00:17:07,500 | 00:17:09,500 | 瑕疵你為什麼 |
| 00:17:09,500 | 00:17:11,500 | 跟主管機關講一聲會怎樣嗎 |
| 00:17:11,500 | 00:17:13,500 | 你不是阻止了一場 |
| 00:17:13,500 | 00:17:15,500 | 這個重大食安事件的發生嗎 |
| 00:17:15,500 | 00:17:17,500 | 結果你們現在不是全部 |
| 00:17:17,500 | 00:17:19,500 | 毛起來要告訴大家說 |
| 00:17:19,500 | 00:17:21,500 | 台糖沒有錯台糖好棒棒 |
| 00:17:21,500 | 00:17:23,500 | 是棒在哪裡啦 |
| 00:17:25,500 | 00:17:27,500 | 他至少門前學他沒有 |
| 00:17:27,500 | 00:17:29,500 | 發揮他該有的社會責任他 |
| 00:17:29,500 | 00:17:31,500 | 連一個吹哨者都不如 |
| 00:17:31,500 | 00:17:33,500 | 在這一點上面不應該 |
| 00:17:33,500 | 00:17:35,500 | 被檢討嗎我就問 |
| 00:17:35,500 | 00:17:37,500 | 你下次有類似這樣的狀況 |
| 00:17:37,500 | 00:17:39,500 | 你認為他應不該通報 |
| 00:17:41,500 | 00:17:43,500 | 要或不要你作為一個食安辦主任 |
| 00:17:43,500 | 00:17:45,500 | 你趕快講真話要不要通報 |
| 00:17:47,500 | 00:17:49,500 | 要看樣態依法規 |
| 00:17:49,500 | 00:17:51,500 | 來去 |
| 00:17:51,500 | 00:17:53,500 | 我就直接問你下次如果這個 |
| 00:17:53,500 | 00:17:55,500 | 你們這個脫交原油 |
| 00:17:55,500 | 00:17:57,500 | 出現本田體超標像這樣子七倍 |
| 00:17:57,500 | 00:17:59,500 | 需不需要通報 |
| 00:18:01,500 | 00:18:03,500 | 需不需要通報 |
| 00:18:03,500 | 00:18:05,500 | 台糖有沒有通報的責任跟義務 |
| 00:18:05,500 | 00:18:07,500 | 這是他的原料喔 |
| 00:18:07,500 | 00:18:09,500 | 應該不是台糖原料是中聯原料 |
| 00:18:09,500 | 00:18:11,500 | 他那個在他的草裡面 |
| 00:18:11,500 | 00:18:13,500 | 我要說明的是這樣然後 |
| 00:18:13,500 | 00:18:15,500 | 還要看樣態的 |
| 00:18:15,500 | 00:18:17,500 | 我真的不用問你們太令人失望了 |
| 00:18:19,500 | 00:18:21,500 | 如果我們的食安要 |
| 00:18:21,500 | 00:18:23,500 | 把關一定是源頭把關 |
| 00:18:23,500 | 00:18:25,500 | 一定是按照你們原來 |
| 00:18:25,500 | 00:18:27,500 | 的這份新聞稿講的 |
| 00:18:27,500 | 00:18:29,500 | 原料半成品 |
| 00:18:29,500 | 00:18:31,500 | 還有成品你發現 |
| 00:18:31,500 | 00:18:33,500 | 有問題的時候 |
| 00:18:33,500 | 00:18:35,500 | 應該要主動通報 |
| 00:18:35,500 | 00:18:37,500 | 你這個才能發揮 |
| 00:18:37,500 | 00:18:39,500 | 層層把關的這樣子 |
| 00:18:39,500 | 00:18:41,500 | 互相去監督 |
| 00:18:41,500 | 00:18:43,500 | 互相去通報你 |
| 00:18:43,500 | 00:18:45,500 | 才能為食安把關但是我 |
| 00:18:45,500 | 00:18:47,500 | 真的非常的痛心今天 |
| 00:18:47,500 | 00:18:49,500 | 我們的公部門不站在 |
| 00:18:49,500 | 00:18:51,500 | 捍衛人民食安最 |
| 00:18:51,500 | 00:18:53,500 | 高標準我要講的是 |
| 00:18:53,500 | 00:18:55,500 | 最高標準來 |
| 00:18:55,500 | 00:18:57,500 | 執法然後 |
| 00:18:57,500 | 00:18:59,500 | 講一些是是而非 |
| 00:18:59,500 | 00:19:01,500 | 的道理然後再硬拗 |
| 00:19:01,500 | 00:19:03,500 | 這樣子我們的食安怎麼從 |
| 00:19:03,500 | 00:19:05,500 | 源頭把關這個 |
| 00:19:05,500 | 00:19:07,500 | 真的是讓人家看了非常非常的 |
| 00:19:07,500 | 00:19:09,500 | 失望真理不敢 |
| 00:19:09,500 | 00:19:11,500 | 講我真的覺得你們 |
| 00:19:11,500 | 00:19:13,500 | 的位置通通都可以下來了我們希望 |
| 00:19:13,500 | 00:19:15,500 | 詹長璇教授可以來 |
| 00:19:15,500 | 00:19:17,500 | 主導我們的 |
| 00:19:17,500 | 00:19:19,500 | 食安我們現在食安需要 |
| 00:19:19,500 | 00:19:21,500 | 長理的人 |
| 00:19:21,500 | 00:19:23,500 | 需要有一個有道德勇氣 |
| 00:19:23,500 | 00:19:25,500 | 在食安把關上面 |
| 00:19:25,500 | 00:19:27,500 | 他真的是站在人民 |
| 00:19:27,500 | 00:19:29,500 | 這一邊的我們需要這樣的一個專家 |
| 00:19:29,500 | 00:19:31,500 | 來帶領我們的食安 |
| 00:19:31,500 | 00:19:33,500 | 如果只是為了位置而存在 |
| 00:19:33,500 | 00:19:35,500 | 的話我真的覺得我們 |
| 00:19:35,500 | 00:19:37,500 | 台灣真的不需要好我質詢到 |
| 00:19:37,500 | 00:19:39,500 | 這邊給你最後說明一句 |
| 00:19:39,500 | 00:19:41,500 | 我們的調查報告寫得很 |
| 00:19:41,500 | 00:19:43,500 | 清楚必須按照原料 |
| 00:19:43,500 | 00:19:45,500 | 的品質做製程調整 |
| 00:19:45,500 | 00:19:47,500 | 所以需要監督 |
| 00:19:47,500 | 00:19:49,500 | 的是地方政府要去監督 |
| 00:19:49,500 | 00:19:51,500 | 好他的製程過程 |
| 00:19:51,500 | 00:19:53,500 | 是不是符合HACCP |
| 00:19:53,500 | 00:19:55,500 | 的標準 |
| 00:19:55,500 | 00:19:57,500 | 謝謝 |