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徐欣瑩 @ 第11屆第5會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:02,000 | 來 子瑄 |
| 00:00:08,660 | 00:00:10,460 | 好 謝謝主席 |
| 00:00:10,460 | 00:00:12,460 | 本席有請邱主委 |
| 00:00:17,720 | 00:00:18,500 | 許瑋揚好 |
| 00:00:18,500 | 00:00:21,260 | 好 邱主委 |
| 00:00:21,260 | 00:00:26,460 | 我們今天審查路資透過屆民登記取得台灣土地的問題 |
| 00:00:26,460 | 00:00:29,060 | 那本席很快的請教您 |
| 00:00:29,060 | 00:00:31,060 | 陸委會同意修法 |
| 00:00:31,060 | 00:00:34,060 | 但是我們國會也想要知道 |
| 00:00:35,060 | 00:00:37,060 | 近十年 |
| 00:00:37,060 | 00:00:39,060 | 究竟有多少這種案件 |
| 00:00:39,060 | 00:00:41,060 | 那這些案件 |
| 00:00:41,060 | 00:00:43,060 | 涉及了多少土地面積 |
| 00:00:43,060 | 00:00:45,060 | 交易金額是多少 |
| 00:00:45,060 | 00:00:49,060 | 那其中又有多少是位於軍事設施 |
| 00:00:49,060 | 00:00:51,060 | 港口機場 |
| 00:00:51,060 | 00:00:53,060 | 能源 通訊水庫 |
| 00:00:53,060 | 00:00:55,060 | 科技園區 |
| 00:00:55,060 | 00:00:58,060 | 或其他關鍵基礎設施的周邊 |
| 00:00:58,060 | 00:01:02,060 | 那這幾年您可以簡單的回覆這幾個問題嗎 |
| 00:01:02,060 | 00:01:04,060 | 謝謝委員子 |
| 00:01:04,060 | 00:01:09,060 | 有關於中國大陸人民來台灣取得不動產的建樹 |
| 00:01:09,060 | 00:01:11,060 | 我們是許可志嘛 |
| 00:01:11,060 | 00:01:13,060 | 近十年 |
| 00:01:13,060 | 00:01:17,060 | 我們總共的建樹是748件 |
| 00:01:17,060 | 00:01:21,060 | 那有多少涉及土地面積 |
| 00:01:21,060 | 00:01:23,060 | 土地面積 |
| 00:01:23,060 | 00:01:27,060 | 我們如果按照權利價值的話 |
| 00:01:27,060 | 00:01:32,060 | 這個是百萬 |
| 00:01:32,060 | 00:01:38,060 | 有187億的價值 |
| 00:01:38,060 | 00:01:41,060 | 這是我們內政部估算的 |
| 00:01:41,060 | 00:01:42,060 | 我是問你 |
| 00:01:42,060 | 00:01:44,060 | 有多少 |
| 00:01:44,060 | 00:01:49,060 | 這些案件涉及多少土地面積 |
| 00:01:49,060 | 00:01:51,060 | 你剛剛講的是交易金額嗎 |
| 00:01:51,060 | 00:01:52,060 | 100多億 |
| 00:01:52,060 | 00:01:53,060 | 權利價值 |
| 00:01:53,060 | 00:01:55,060 | 權利價值 估值 |
| 00:01:55,060 | 00:01:58,060 | 那你如果要取得的土地 |
| 00:01:58,060 | 00:02:00,060 | 面積知道嗎 |
| 00:02:00,060 | 00:02:03,060 | 我們有一個總量管制 |
| 00:02:03,060 | 00:02:05,060 | 就是土地不要 |
| 00:02:05,060 | 00:02:06,060 | 這是總量管制 |
| 00:02:06,060 | 00:02:09,060 | 但是沒有超過這個管制 |
| 00:02:09,060 | 00:02:15,060 | 那我們希望我們的每年的管制是13公頃 |
| 00:02:15,060 | 00:02:16,060 | 每年的 |
| 00:02:16,060 | 00:02:18,060 | 然後建物是400戶 |
| 00:02:18,060 | 00:02:20,060 | 那如果是 |
| 00:02:20,060 | 00:02:22,060 | 建物叫做400戶 |
| 00:02:22,060 | 00:02:24,060 | 對 建物 |
| 00:02:24,060 | 00:02:25,060 | 建物 |
| 00:02:25,060 | 00:02:27,060 | 對 房子400戶 |
| 00:02:27,060 | 00:02:30,060 | 這是我們年度的管制的量 |
| 00:02:30,060 | 00:02:34,060 | 那有多少位於相關的關鍵基礎設施 |
| 00:02:34,060 | 00:02:36,060 | 什麼港口機場 通訊水庫 |
| 00:02:36,060 | 00:02:37,060 | 各位報告 |
| 00:02:37,060 | 00:02:39,060 | 我們的兩岸條例 |
| 00:02:39,060 | 00:02:42,060 | 就路人來購買這些不動產 |
| 00:02:42,060 | 00:02:45,060 | 都要由主管機關許可 |
| 00:02:45,060 | 00:02:46,060 | 我們是許可制 |
| 00:02:46,060 | 00:02:48,060 | 委員剛剛說到那些 |
| 00:02:48,060 | 00:02:51,060 | 可能國家關鍵基礎設施 |
| 00:02:51,060 | 00:02:53,060 | 或是藥塞保理地帶 |
| 00:02:53,060 | 00:02:55,060 | 我只是要問 |
| 00:02:55,060 | 00:02:57,060 | 都不許可 |
| 00:02:57,060 | 00:02:59,060 | 陸委會有沒有掌握 |
| 00:02:59,060 | 00:03:01,060 | 都沒有 |
| 00:03:01,060 | 00:03:02,060 | 都沒有 |
| 00:03:02,060 | 00:03:04,060 | 那接著本席請教 |
| 00:03:04,060 | 00:03:07,060 | 那我們這個在修法的時候 |
| 00:03:07,060 | 00:03:08,060 | 這個內容 |
| 00:03:08,060 | 00:03:13,060 | 它只寫到就是禁止屆民登記 |
| 00:03:13,060 | 00:03:14,060 | 那這個屆民登記 |
| 00:03:14,060 | 00:03:16,060 | 其實它只是一種最傳統 |
| 00:03:16,060 | 00:03:19,060 | 最表面的規避方式 |
| 00:03:19,060 | 00:03:21,060 | 就是如果對岸 |
| 00:03:21,060 | 00:03:24,060 | 大陸有人要來買我們這邊的 |
| 00:03:24,060 | 00:03:26,060 | 不動產土地的話 |
| 00:03:26,060 | 00:03:30,060 | 那所以它也有可能改用第三地的公司 |
| 00:03:30,060 | 00:03:32,060 | 或者是它用美國人民益 |
| 00:03:32,060 | 00:03:34,060 | 它用國際公司 |
| 00:03:34,060 | 00:03:36,060 | 化國企業等等 |
| 00:03:36,060 | 00:03:38,060 | 所以我們修法 |
| 00:03:38,060 | 00:03:41,060 | 我們也沒看到陸委會 |
| 00:03:41,060 | 00:03:42,060 | 陸委會就是同意 |
| 00:03:42,060 | 00:03:44,060 | 但陸委會好像也沒有版本 |
| 00:03:44,060 | 00:03:47,060 | 可是你們是主要的主管機關 |
| 00:03:47,060 | 00:03:49,060 | 所以我們希望修法核心 |
| 00:03:49,060 | 00:03:53,060 | 是不是就不能只寫屆民登記 |
| 00:03:53,060 | 00:03:55,060 | 是不是應該你要修 |
| 00:03:55,060 | 00:03:57,060 | 你就要完整的考量 |
| 00:03:57,060 | 00:03:58,060 | 要整套 |
| 00:03:58,060 | 00:04:00,060 | 這一塊您的看法怎麼樣 |
| 00:04:00,060 | 00:04:01,060 | 我非常同意 |
| 00:04:01,060 | 00:04:05,060 | 如果有更完整的一個立法 |
| 00:04:05,060 | 00:04:07,060 | 讓大家可以來遵守 |
| 00:04:07,060 | 00:04:08,060 | 那你們自己有沒有版本 |
| 00:04:08,060 | 00:04:10,060 | 因為立委有考量到這一點 |
| 00:04:10,060 | 00:04:11,060 | 那當然立委 |
| 00:04:11,060 | 00:04:17,060 | 他團隊各方面也寫了這個法條 |
| 00:04:17,060 | 00:04:20,060 | 你們有自己的版本嗎 |
| 00:04:20,060 | 00:04:21,060 | 是 |
| 00:04:21,060 | 00:04:23,060 | 還有你們是主管機關 |
| 00:04:23,060 | 00:04:26,060 | 你們應該看得更全面更整全套 |
| 00:04:26,060 | 00:04:30,060 | 我們有跟武力華委員有很多的討論 |
| 00:04:30,060 | 00:04:33,060 | 特別是武力華委員非常關切的是 |
| 00:04:33,060 | 00:04:35,060 | 原住民保留地 |
| 00:04:35,060 | 00:04:37,060 | 非常大量的屆民登記 |
| 00:04:37,060 | 00:04:40,060 | 那他也認為有許多的路資 |
| 00:04:40,060 | 00:04:43,060 | 採取屆民登記來收購 |
| 00:04:43,060 | 00:04:45,060 | 我的問題就是 |
| 00:04:45,060 | 00:04:49,060 | 我們是很支持這個屆民登記 |
| 00:04:49,060 | 00:04:52,060 | 在這個土地登記跟移轉是無效的 |
| 00:04:52,060 | 00:04:53,060 | 當然要有證據 |
| 00:04:53,060 | 00:04:55,060 | 好啦我直接問你 |
| 00:04:55,060 | 00:04:59,060 | 陸委會是否支持在法律或明確授權命令中 |
| 00:04:59,060 | 00:05:01,060 | 建立實質受益人資金來源 |
| 00:05:01,060 | 00:05:04,060 | 以及實際控制的認定標準 |
| 00:05:04,060 | 00:05:08,060 | 我剛剛講了你只是屆民登記 |
| 00:05:08,060 | 00:05:10,060 | 你只是禁止屆民登記 |
| 00:05:10,060 | 00:05:12,060 | 但實際上他可以迂迴 |
| 00:05:12,060 | 00:05:14,060 | 他再用第三地第三人 |
| 00:05:14,060 | 00:05:16,060 | 各種方式 |
| 00:05:16,060 | 00:05:18,060 | 所以這一塊 |
| 00:05:18,060 | 00:05:21,060 | 我想你們來努力好不好 |
| 00:05:21,060 | 00:05:23,060 | 我這個質詢的時間 |
| 00:05:23,060 | 00:05:25,060 | 我知道委員是要避免漏洞 |
| 00:05:25,060 | 00:05:28,060 | 對當然很多規避漏洞 |
| 00:05:28,060 | 00:05:30,060 | 這個是你們的職責你知道嗎 |
| 00:05:30,060 | 00:05:33,060 | 你們主管單位行政單位的職責 |
| 00:05:33,060 | 00:05:35,060 | 所以我希望你們加油一點 |
| 00:05:35,060 | 00:05:37,060 | 那再來本席要問 |
| 00:05:37,060 | 00:05:41,060 | 好如果這個這邊 |
| 00:05:41,060 | 00:05:44,060 | 我們內政部只有來移民署 |
| 00:05:44,060 | 00:05:47,060 | 也就是說如果我們發現了 |
| 00:05:47,060 | 00:05:49,060 | 那你要這個 |
| 00:05:49,060 | 00:05:52,060 | 譬如說地政機關看到登記簿上的權利人 |
| 00:05:52,060 | 00:05:57,060 | 但地政機關他看得到跨境境外的匯款 |
| 00:05:57,060 | 00:05:59,060 | 就是說如果要查的話 |
| 00:05:59,060 | 00:06:01,060 | 這個單位誰來查 |
| 00:06:01,060 | 00:06:02,060 | 主責單位是你們嗎 |
| 00:06:02,060 | 00:06:03,060 | 不可能嗎 |
| 00:06:03,060 | 00:06:05,060 | 我想是主管單位 |
| 00:06:05,060 | 00:06:08,060 | 但今天內政部好像只有移民署 |
| 00:06:08,060 | 00:06:09,060 | 我們有地政司的同仁 |
| 00:06:09,060 | 00:06:11,060 | 地政司專門委員 |
| 00:06:11,060 | 00:06:15,060 | 報告委員如果是移轉登記的話 |
| 00:06:15,060 | 00:06:17,060 | 我們只會看依照契約上面 |
| 00:06:17,060 | 00:06:19,060 | 我們沒有辦法去查他的資金來 |
| 00:06:19,060 | 00:06:22,060 | 對所以現在主委 |
| 00:06:22,060 | 00:06:25,060 | 究竟哪一個機關來統合這件事 |
| 00:06:25,060 | 00:06:27,060 | 如果有檢舉案的話 |
| 00:06:27,060 | 00:06:30,060 | 誰負責查誰是主責機關 |
| 00:06:30,060 | 00:06:32,060 | 單一主責機關是誰 |
| 00:06:32,060 | 00:06:33,060 | 應該是誰 |
| 00:06:33,060 | 00:06:34,060 | 內政部 |
| 00:06:34,060 | 00:06:35,060 | 應該是內政部 |
| 00:06:35,060 | 00:06:37,060 | 那內政部怎麼辦 |
| 00:06:37,060 | 00:06:40,060 | 你有辦法查到境外匯款嗎 |
| 00:06:40,060 | 00:06:44,060 | 你看得到第三地公司的最終受益人嗎 |
| 00:06:44,060 | 00:06:48,060 | 還有你看得到股東之間的整個控制協議嗎 |
| 00:06:48,060 | 00:06:53,060 | 還有看得到金融機構的客戶審查資料嗎 |
| 00:06:53,060 | 00:06:55,060 | 看不到那怎麼辦 |
| 00:06:55,060 | 00:06:57,060 | 所以主責機關是內政部 |
| 00:06:57,060 | 00:07:01,060 | 那你們在韓請其他單位是這樣嗎 |
| 00:07:01,060 | 00:07:03,060 | 我們目前都這個部分是 |
| 00:07:03,060 | 00:07:05,060 | 因為今天的條文是沒有規定 |
| 00:07:05,060 | 00:07:08,060 | 對好很好你的回答 |
| 00:07:08,060 | 00:07:10,060 | 因為我的時間的關係 |
| 00:07:10,060 | 00:07:13,060 | 主委這個我們在修這個法的時候 |
| 00:07:13,060 | 00:07:15,060 | 要更完善一點好不好 |
| 00:07:15,060 | 00:07:17,060 | 我們今天大概點出幾個問題 |
| 00:07:17,060 | 00:07:18,060 | 是謝謝委員 |
| 00:07:18,060 | 00:07:20,060 | 你是主責單位你們 |
| 00:07:20,060 | 00:07:24,060 | 如果這個法案要討論真的要來修 |
| 00:07:24,060 | 00:07:27,060 | 那你們應該要更全面的考量 |
| 00:07:27,060 | 00:07:31,060 | 而且給出好的建議甚至好的版本 |
| 00:07:31,060 | 00:07:32,060 | 是好嗎 |
| 00:07:32,060 | 00:07:33,060 | 是謝謝委員 |
| 00:07:33,060 | 00:07:37,060 | 好OK那地政部地政司的請回座 |
| 00:07:37,060 | 00:07:41,060 | 那這個主委本席很快再詢問一下 |
| 00:07:41,060 | 00:07:44,060 | 因為我們現在食安的問題 |
| 00:07:44,060 | 00:07:47,060 | 我們兩岸有食安合作機制吧 |
| 00:07:47,060 | 00:07:48,060 | 有 |
| 00:07:48,060 | 00:07:54,060 | 尤其我們最近看到這個苦茶油 |
| 00:07:54,060 | 00:07:58,060 | 苦茶油也爆出來這個問題 |
| 00:07:58,060 | 00:08:01,060 | 那請問涉案的苦茶油 |
| 00:08:01,060 | 00:08:06,060 | 那個苦茶籽好像說是可能來自中國大陸 |
| 00:08:06,060 | 00:08:09,060 | 那請問我們陸委會 |
| 00:08:09,060 | 00:08:15,060 | 我們中華民國政府有沒有依照兩項協議 |
| 00:08:15,060 | 00:08:18,060 | 正式請求陸方共同調查 |
| 00:08:18,060 | 00:08:19,060 | 你們做了沒 |
| 00:08:21,060 | 00:08:22,060 | 還沒有 |
| 00:08:22,060 | 00:08:24,060 | 包委員因為主管機關 |
| 00:08:24,060 | 00:08:27,060 | 當然我們兩岸有食品安全協議 |
| 00:08:27,060 | 00:08:28,060 | 對 |
| 00:08:28,060 | 00:08:29,060 | 還有你剛剛提出來的 |
| 00:08:29,060 | 00:08:33,059 | 因為這個苦茶油那個原料應該是農產品的檢驗合作機 |
| 00:08:33,059 | 00:08:35,059 | 對啊就來自中國大陸 |
| 00:08:35,059 | 00:08:36,059 | 農業部的 |
| 00:08:36,059 | 00:08:40,059 | 你們要不要進行 |
| 00:08:40,059 | 00:08:43,059 | 我知道我聽你回答我就知道根本還沒進行 |
| 00:08:43,059 | 00:08:47,060 | 但我們民眾都已經知道那個苦茶籽可能來自中國大陸 |
| 00:08:47,060 | 00:08:49,060 | 但是我們這邊毫無動作 |
| 00:08:50,060 | 00:08:54,060 | 你們是否會正式請陸方共同調查 |
| 00:08:55,060 | 00:08:58,060 | 雖然我們必須在這邊 |
| 00:08:58,060 | 00:08:59,060 | 這個是在調查過程 |
| 00:08:59,060 | 00:09:04,060 | 我們並不是認定一定是他們中國大陸的原料造成的 |
| 00:09:04,060 | 00:09:07,060 | 但是現在有這個疑慮的時候 |
| 00:09:07,060 | 00:09:09,060 | 我們就要通盤啟動 |
| 00:09:10,060 | 00:09:11,060 | 對不對 |
| 00:09:11,060 | 00:09:13,060 | 依協議啟動調查 |
| 00:09:14,060 | 00:09:18,060 | 本身不是責任認定我們是在做風險管理 |
| 00:09:18,060 | 00:09:20,060 | 所以主委可以做嗎 |
| 00:09:20,060 | 00:09:21,060 | 可以 |
| 00:09:21,060 | 00:09:22,060 | 陸委會可以嗎 |
| 00:09:22,060 | 00:09:25,060 | 我們會來問主管機關農業部 |
| 00:09:25,060 | 00:09:27,060 | 因為其實目前為止他們有跟我們 |
| 00:09:27,060 | 00:09:30,060 | 有任何的請求 |
| 00:09:30,060 | 00:09:31,060 | 或是說請我們來合作 |
| 00:09:31,060 | 00:09:32,060 | 你說誰沒有跟你們請求 |
| 00:09:32,060 | 00:09:36,060 | 農業部針對你剛剛提到的可能有出現問題的原料 |
| 00:09:36,060 | 00:09:40,060 | 所以你在這邊就證明了這個食安問題 |
| 00:09:40,060 | 00:09:44,060 | 尤其這個毒油風暴延燒了一個月了 |
| 00:09:44,060 | 00:09:48,060 | 結果政府的態度還是拖拖拉拉 |
| 00:09:48,060 | 00:09:49,060 | 你在這邊證明啊 |
| 00:09:49,060 | 00:09:51,060 | 對啊農業部也沒找你們 |
| 00:09:51,060 | 00:09:55,060 | 你們看到好像疑似新聞大概都有報導 |
| 00:09:55,060 | 00:09:56,060 | 連我們都看到了 |
| 00:09:56,060 | 00:09:58,060 | 可能是中國大陸來的 |
| 00:09:58,060 | 00:10:01,060 | 你們也是沒有主動積極的查 |
| 00:10:01,060 | 00:10:02,060 | 我想因為時間關係 |
| 00:10:02,060 | 00:10:04,060 | 我也不想浪費大家時間 |
| 00:10:05,060 | 00:10:06,060 | 耽誤大家時間 |
| 00:10:06,060 | 00:10:10,060 | 所以主委我們建立跨境食安的治理 |
| 00:10:10,060 | 00:10:12,060 | 絕對不是等事件發生 |
| 00:10:12,060 | 00:10:14,060 | 因為今天可能有苦茶油 |
| 00:10:14,060 | 00:10:18,060 | 明天可能是茶葉芝麻花生中藥材等等等 |
| 00:10:18,060 | 00:10:23,060 | 所以我們比較想知道的是我們的政府到底有沒有能力 |
| 00:10:23,060 | 00:10:25,060 | 在第一時間追到源頭 |
| 00:10:25,060 | 00:10:26,060 | 查明真相 |
| 00:10:26,060 | 00:10:31,060 | 這些農產品原物料 |
| 00:10:31,060 | 00:10:33,060 | 有造成食安問題 |
| 00:10:33,060 | 00:10:40,060 | 我們就是希望陸委會能夠積極善用海峽兩岸食品安全協議 |
| 00:10:40,060 | 00:10:46,060 | 還有海峽兩岸農產品檢驗合作協議 |
| 00:10:46,060 | 00:10:52,060 | 把兩岸既有的機制制度運用在保障人民健康 |
| 00:10:52,060 | 00:10:53,060 | 不是等到事件 |
| 00:10:53,060 | 00:10:55,060 | 這次是事件發生了 |
| 00:10:55,060 | 00:10:56,060 | 你們都還沒動 |
| 00:10:56,060 | 00:11:00,060 | 但我們要求的是你們應該更積極 |
| 00:11:00,060 | 00:11:03,060 | 不是等到事件結束你才回頭檢討 |
| 00:11:03,060 | 00:11:07,060 | 所以最後本席要說是我們的食品安全沒有藍綠 |
| 00:11:07,060 | 00:11:08,060 | 對不對 |
| 00:11:08,060 | 00:11:09,060 | 大家每天都在吃 |
| 00:11:09,060 | 00:11:11,060 | 你吃到毒油 |
| 00:11:11,060 | 00:11:12,060 | 我也吃到毒油 |
| 00:11:12,060 | 00:11:15,060 | 我們也絕對不要兩岸對立 |
| 00:11:15,060 | 00:11:17,060 | 我們食品安全只有共同一個目標 |
| 00:11:17,060 | 00:11:20,060 | 就是要讓人民吃得安心吃得安全 |
| 00:11:20,060 | 00:11:23,060 | 請陸委會加油一點好嗎 |
| 00:11:23,060 | 00:11:24,060 | 謝謝許委員 |
| 00:11:24,060 | 00:11:25,060 | 我們祝福主在 |
| 00:11:25,060 | 00:11:26,060 | 謝謝 |