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林淑芬 @ 第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:10,500 | 好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們的石部長 |
| 00:00:10,500 | 00:00:13,000 | 有請石部長 |
| 00:00:13,000 | 00:00:17,000 | 好 委員好 |
| 00:00:17,000 | 00:00:25,000 | 部長 大概求好死 善終都是成為年長者口中所謂的福報 |
| 00:00:25,000 | 00:00:31,000 | 我們經常在走基層 那也聽到很多的心聲 |
| 00:00:31,000 | 00:00:35,000 | 這是社會上切切實實很多人的想法 |
| 00:00:35,000 | 00:00:40,000 | 很多人支持安樂死 但也不是說我們不珍惜生命 |
| 00:00:40,000 | 00:00:45,000 | 而是我們害怕 是不是癌症末期無法控制的疼痛 |
| 00:00:45,000 | 00:00:49,000 | 是不是失智以後的整個帶給家人的負擔 |
| 00:00:50,000 | 00:00:55,000 | 或者是中風以後長期臥床 完全失能 完全的依賴他人 |
| 00:00:55,000 | 00:01:00,000 | 成為家庭裡面的照顧和經濟上的重擔 |
| 00:01:00,000 | 00:01:03,000 | 我覺得的確就是這樣子 |
| 00:01:03,000 | 00:01:09,000 | 你說大家都覺得說不尊重生命 不是 我們真的不是那樣子 |
| 00:01:09,000 | 00:01:14,000 | 那這一種恐懼非常的強大 包括我自己 |
| 00:01:14,000 | 00:01:18,000 | 包括我自己 我都支持說我們要有安樂死 |
| 00:01:18,000 | 00:01:25,000 | 因為我們看了很多 身邊的人真的也很多這樣的案例 |
| 00:01:25,000 | 00:01:30,000 | 所以並不是憑空去想像那種恐懼 而是真真實實 |
| 00:01:30,000 | 00:01:35,000 | 每個人看得到 然後接觸得到 甚至都發生過了 |
| 00:01:35,000 | 00:01:44,000 | 所以在這種狀況裡面 加拿大有一項針對醫療協助死亡的申請者的研究 |
| 00:01:44,000 | 00:01:48,000 | 因為這個社會的對話一定要開啟 |
| 00:01:48,000 | 00:01:54,000 | 而台灣這個社會的對話 我們很遺憾 官方的正式的從來沒有開啟過 |
| 00:01:54,000 | 00:01:56,000 | 而立法院今天是第一次 |
| 00:01:56,000 | 00:02:00,000 | 而立法院的第一次就直接進入了詢答 |
| 00:02:00,000 | 00:02:04,000 | 而沒有公聽 沒有在傾聽民間的聲音 |
| 00:02:04,000 | 00:02:10,000 | 可是在加拿大已經有一項研究發現 |
| 00:02:10,000 | 00:02:15,000 | 他們實際上接受醫療協助死亡者提出的理由 |
| 00:02:15,000 | 00:02:21,000 | 不只是疾病症狀 有五成提到他失去自主 |
| 00:02:21,000 | 00:02:26,000 | 然後近五成提到他失去從事喜愛活動的能力 |
| 00:02:26,000 | 00:02:30,000 | 也有人是出於對未來痛苦的恐懼 |
| 00:02:30,000 | 00:02:37,000 | 相關的訪談和研究也發現 患者所認為的無法接受的生活品質 |
| 00:02:37,000 | 00:02:43,000 | 這個概念通常都會跟失去獨立行動和溝通能力 |
| 00:02:43,000 | 00:02:48,000 | 以及失去的人生目的和有意義的活動有關 |
| 00:02:48,000 | 00:02:51,000 | 所以在這裡大家都覺得說生命是無價 |
| 00:02:51,000 | 00:02:54,000 | 可是生命無價這句話太容易了 |
| 00:02:54,000 | 00:02:58,000 | 因為你要求一個病人繼續承受一切 |
| 00:02:58,000 | 00:03:03,000 | 不能夠因為害怕老去 不能夠害怕失能 不能夠害怕長期照顧 |
| 00:03:03,000 | 00:03:06,000 | 就急著用安樂死回應這一些恐懼 |
| 00:03:06,000 | 00:03:10,000 | 我覺得你們就是用這種道德來回應支持的人 |
| 00:03:10,000 | 00:03:15,000 | 可是的確這個是很紮紮實實的存在 |
| 00:03:16,000 | 00:03:23,000 | 所以我們在這裡我們也知道說因為死亡是生命一旦終止 |
| 00:03:23,000 | 00:03:28,000 | 都沒有辦法補救 你誤判了也沒有辦法補救 |
| 00:03:28,000 | 00:03:32,000 | 所以我們今天要談的不是說大家你支持或是你反對 |
| 00:03:32,000 | 00:03:37,000 | 而是我們希望這個對話今天第一次的對話我們要談更多 |
| 00:03:37,000 | 00:03:40,000 | 而台灣的醫療 台灣的長照制度 |
| 00:03:40,000 | 00:03:45,000 | 台灣的社會支持的條件 法律的制度 |
| 00:03:45,000 | 00:03:51,000 | 是不是已經準備好了要承擔這一項無法挽回的決定 |
| 00:03:51,000 | 00:03:54,000 | 我們這個社會準備好了沒 |
| 00:03:54,000 | 00:03:57,000 | 安樂死要開放到哪個程度 |
| 00:03:57,000 | 00:04:00,000 | 我們要先劃出適用的範圍 |
| 00:04:00,000 | 00:04:04,000 | 大家都知道實施安樂死或醫治死亡 |
| 00:04:04,000 | 00:04:08,000 | 醫療協助死亡的國家適用的範圍都不相同 |
| 00:04:08,000 | 00:04:11,000 | 大概分成兩種模式 |
| 00:04:11,000 | 00:04:18,000 | 第一種就是很侷限說在死亡已經接近末期的病人 |
| 00:04:18,000 | 00:04:22,000 | 大家都其實在道德上壓力也比較少 |
| 00:04:22,000 | 00:04:24,000 | 爭端爭議也比較少 |
| 00:04:25,000 | 00:04:31,000 | 但另一種是不要求病人即將末期即將死亡 |
| 00:04:31,000 | 00:04:34,000 | 只要你疾病無法治癒痛苦無法忍受 |
| 00:04:34,000 | 00:04:37,000 | 經過法定審查後就直接適用 |
| 00:04:37,000 | 00:04:44,000 | 美國的阿勒岡跟紐西蘭大概採取的是相對限縮的模式 |
| 00:04:44,000 | 00:04:51,000 | 只要你是可能在六個月內醫生判定六個月內死亡的末期病患 |
| 00:04:51,000 | 00:04:54,000 | 你申請執行時具備決定能力 |
| 00:04:54,000 | 00:04:58,000 | 自行服藥或醫治死亡 |
| 00:04:58,000 | 00:05:03,000 | 可以看得到病人死亡都接近了 |
| 00:05:03,000 | 00:05:04,000 | 就比較限縮的 |
| 00:05:04,000 | 00:05:11,000 | 可是大家社會上普遍爭議的不是在這一種相對限縮的 |
| 00:05:11,000 | 00:05:15,000 | 很大的爭議是像加拿大和荷蘭 |
| 00:05:15,000 | 00:05:18,000 | 他們的適用範圍比較寬 |
| 00:05:18,000 | 00:05:21,000 | 然後也不要求要接近死亡 |
| 00:05:21,000 | 00:05:24,000 | 加拿大本來是侷限在接近死亡 |
| 00:05:24,000 | 00:05:26,000 | 但他們後來放寬了 |
| 00:05:26,000 | 00:05:31,000 | 他們2021年起不再要求比較侷限 |
| 00:05:31,000 | 00:05:35,000 | 而是比較放寬的 |
| 00:05:35,000 | 00:05:40,000 | 針對自然死亡並不是合理可預見的 |
| 00:05:40,000 | 00:05:43,000 | 即便你沒有合理的可預見 |
| 00:05:43,000 | 00:05:48,000 | 但是你還是經過了第二軌的審查程序的話 |
| 00:05:48,000 | 00:05:50,000 | 他還是會放寬 |
| 00:05:50,000 | 00:05:55,000 | 結果加拿大2024那一年 |
| 00:05:55,000 | 00:06:00,000 | 那一年一共有16499人 |
| 00:06:00,000 | 00:06:02,000 | 好多喔 |
| 00:06:02,000 | 00:06:06,000 | 他們去申請接受醫療協助一度死亡 |
| 00:06:06,000 | 00:06:10,000 | 但是16499人裡面 |
| 00:06:10,000 | 00:06:14,000 | 進入到第二軌大部分都是末期 |
| 00:06:14,000 | 00:06:16,000 | 但不是末期 |
| 00:06:16,000 | 00:06:18,000 | 但是也是同意他的 |
| 00:06:18,000 | 00:06:21,000 | 去申請的有732人 |
| 00:06:21,000 | 00:06:22,000 | 但是呢 |
| 00:06:22,000 | 00:06:26,000 | 抱歉同意的是732人 |
| 00:06:26,000 | 00:06:31,000 | 但是申請的案件有1233個件數申請 |
| 00:06:31,000 | 00:06:35,000 | 其中有321件被認定不符合資格 |
| 00:06:35,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 大概26%不符合資格 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:41,000 | 然後不被許可 |
| 00:06:41,000 | 00:06:43,000 | 在這種狀況裡面 |
| 00:06:43,000 | 00:06:45,000 | 這種案件都要審查很久很久 |
| 00:06:45,000 | 00:06:48,000 | 這顯示因為死亡不是開玩笑 |
| 00:06:48,000 | 00:06:50,000 | 你一旦判定了 |
| 00:06:50,000 | 00:06:54,000 | 他其實是不可逆轉的 |
| 00:06:54,000 | 00:06:56,000 | 所以是很嚴肅的 |
| 00:06:56,000 | 00:06:57,000 | 所以在這裡都會 |
| 00:06:57,000 | 00:06:59,000 | 你是不是死亡將近啊 |
| 00:06:59,000 | 00:07:02,000 | 你這個疾病是不是難以治癒啊 |
| 00:07:02,000 | 00:07:04,000 | 你這個衰退是不是不可逆啊 |
| 00:07:04,000 | 00:07:07,000 | 你的痛苦是不是有其他緩解的辦法等等 |
| 00:07:07,000 | 00:07:10,000 | 都要成為判斷的依據 |
| 00:07:10,000 | 00:07:14,000 | 那荷蘭也不是以這個末期或6個月死亡 |
| 00:07:14,000 | 00:07:15,000 | 為必要要件 |
| 00:07:15,000 | 00:07:17,000 | 只要病人的痛苦 |
| 00:07:17,000 | 00:07:19,000 | 符合具有醫療上的原因 |
| 00:07:19,000 | 00:07:23,000 | 而且已經無法忍受且沒有改善的希望 |
| 00:07:23,000 | 00:07:26,000 | 並符合自願而審慎的請求 |
| 00:07:26,000 | 00:07:28,000 | 充分的告知 |
| 00:07:28,000 | 00:07:31,000 | 沒有合理替代方法及獨立醫師評估等條件 |
| 00:07:31,000 | 00:07:33,000 | 就可以適用了 |
| 00:07:33,000 | 00:07:35,000 | 但是呢 |
| 00:07:35,000 | 00:07:37,000 | 在荷蘭裡面 |
| 00:07:37,000 | 00:07:39,000 | 如果你是說我年事已高 |
| 00:07:39,000 | 00:07:42,000 | 我認為人生已經完整了 |
| 00:07:42,000 | 00:07:45,000 | 那我對繼續生活失去期待 |
| 00:07:45,000 | 00:07:50,000 | 這個是不足以構成他們許可安樂死的法定事由 |
| 00:07:50,000 | 00:07:52,000 | 那這兩種模式喔 |
| 00:07:52,000 | 00:07:57,000 | 我們今天兩個提案都類似 |
| 00:07:57,000 | 00:08:00,000 | 一個是局限在末期接近死亡 |
| 00:08:00,000 | 00:08:02,000 | 一個是不已接近死亡 |
| 00:08:02,000 | 00:08:04,000 | 不已接近死亡 |
| 00:08:04,000 | 00:08:06,000 | 然後只要痛苦難耐 |
| 00:08:06,000 | 00:08:08,000 | 大概就開放了這樣子 |
| 00:08:08,000 | 00:08:10,000 | 所以這兩個提案 |
| 00:08:10,000 | 00:08:14,000 | 和這世界上存在的這兩種模式 |
| 00:08:14,000 | 00:08:16,000 | 大概這兩個提案就可以代表 |
| 00:08:16,000 | 00:08:20,000 | 那這兩個提案或這兩種模式的差別 |
| 00:08:20,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 不是只有適用範圍不同 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:26,000 | 而是國家允許醫療介入死亡的理由不同 |
| 00:08:26,000 | 00:08:28,000 | 所以這個東西 |
| 00:08:28,000 | 00:08:31,000 | 我們要講說 |
| 00:08:31,000 | 00:08:33,000 | 回到這兩份草案裡面 |
| 00:08:33,000 | 00:08:37,000 | 陳冠廷的版本就是要求病人承受 |
| 00:08:37,000 | 00:08:41,000 | 難以忍受無法緩解的身體痛苦 |
| 00:08:41,000 | 00:08:43,000 | 然後末期才可以 |
| 00:08:43,000 | 00:08:45,000 | 那民眾黨的版本是 |
| 00:08:45,000 | 00:08:47,000 | 不用末期 |
| 00:08:47,000 | 00:08:49,000 | 只要疾病無法治癒痛苦 |
| 00:08:49,000 | 00:08:50,000 | 難以忍受 |
| 00:08:50,000 | 00:08:54,000 | 而且現在的醫療水準沒有其他合適的解決方法 |
| 00:08:54,000 | 00:08:56,000 | 就可以提出申請 |
| 00:08:56,000 | 00:08:58,000 | 那所以在這裡 |
| 00:08:58,000 | 00:09:00,000 | 我們真的是 |
| 00:09:00,000 | 00:09:04,000 | 跟民間的想像有點落差 |
| 00:09:04,000 | 00:09:06,000 | 因為兩者都是 |
| 00:09:06,000 | 00:09:08,000 | 一個是要接近死亡 |
| 00:09:08,000 | 00:09:09,000 | 即便是安樂死 |
| 00:09:09,000 | 00:09:11,000 | 大家民間所想要的 |
| 00:09:11,000 | 00:09:13,000 | 很多人想要的安樂死 |
| 00:09:13,000 | 00:09:17,000 | 跟這兩個版本所提的安樂死 |
| 00:09:17,000 | 00:09:19,000 | 落差很大 |
| 00:09:19,000 | 00:09:22,000 | 因為即便是開放 |
| 00:09:22,000 | 00:09:25,000 | 更開放的這個民眾黨的版本 |
| 00:09:25,000 | 00:09:27,000 | 也是要求說 |
| 00:09:27,000 | 00:09:29,000 | 痛苦難以忍受 |
| 00:09:29,000 | 00:09:32,000 | 疾病無法治癒 |
| 00:09:32,000 | 00:09:34,000 | 那所以我就是不懂就是說 |
| 00:09:34,000 | 00:09:37,000 | 因為一般人就想說那我中風了 |
| 00:09:37,000 | 00:09:39,000 | 全部失能了癱瘓了 |
| 00:09:39,000 | 00:09:43,000 | 那符不符合民眾黨版本的疾病無法治癒 |
| 00:09:43,000 | 00:09:45,000 | 痛苦難以忍受 |
| 00:09:45,000 | 00:09:47,000 | 你覺得呢部長 |
| 00:09:47,000 | 00:09:49,000 | 這個跟委員說明 |
| 00:09:49,000 | 00:09:53,000 | 您的這些見解是非常深入的 |
| 00:09:53,000 | 00:09:55,000 | 這也就是為什麼我主張 |
| 00:09:55,000 | 00:09:58,000 | 他不應該用公投的方式來解決 |
| 00:09:58,000 | 00:10:00,000 | 因為這個是需要很多 |
| 00:10:00,000 | 00:10:03,000 | 面向的廣泛的討論跟對話 |
| 00:10:03,000 | 00:10:04,000 | 所以我們會來啟動 |
| 00:10:04,000 | 00:10:05,000 | 我剛剛講的說 |
| 00:10:05,000 | 00:10:07,000 | 一年我們來做這個 |
| 00:10:07,000 | 00:10:08,000 | 我現在看你 |
| 00:10:08,000 | 00:10:10,000 | 我發現你好像瘦很多 |
| 00:10:12,000 | 00:10:13,000 | 抱歉這是題外話 |
| 00:10:13,000 | 00:10:15,000 | 但是我的意思是說 |
| 00:10:15,000 | 00:10:17,000 | 公投你叫人家支持安樂死 |
| 00:10:17,000 | 00:10:19,000 | 反對安樂死 |
| 00:10:19,000 | 00:10:21,000 | 這個是粗暴的 |
| 00:10:21,000 | 00:10:22,000 | 這是粗暴的 |
| 00:10:22,000 | 00:10:23,000 | 但我們在這裡就是 |
| 00:10:23,000 | 00:10:25,000 | 因為在這裡是立法院 |
| 00:10:25,000 | 00:10:29,000 | 就整個國家對於安樂死這個議題 |
| 00:10:29,000 | 00:10:32,000 | 第一次很正式的對話 |
| 00:10:32,000 | 00:10:35,000 | 所以在這裡我們必須要 |
| 00:10:35,000 | 00:10:38,000 | 細緻一點的來討論 |
| 00:10:38,000 | 00:10:42,000 | 因為人民投我支持安樂死 |
| 00:10:42,000 | 00:10:44,000 | 可是他想像的安樂死 |
| 00:10:44,000 | 00:10:49,000 | 跟大家立法院在討論的安樂死 |
| 00:10:49,000 | 00:10:51,000 | 落差可能很大 |
| 00:10:51,000 | 00:10:53,000 | 然後都 |
| 00:10:53,000 | 00:10:55,000 | 但不管哪一種嚴謹的 |
| 00:10:55,000 | 00:10:56,000 | 限縮的 |
| 00:10:56,000 | 00:10:58,000 | 或是比較寬鬆的 |
| 00:10:58,000 | 00:11:00,000 | 都還必須要有一個叫做 |
| 00:11:00,000 | 00:11:02,000 | 痛苦難耐 |
| 00:11:02,000 | 00:11:04,000 | 痛苦難耐指涉的是什麼 |
| 00:11:04,000 | 00:11:06,000 | 痛苦到難以忍受 |
| 00:11:06,000 | 00:11:08,000 | 指涉的是什麼 |
| 00:11:08,000 | 00:11:09,000 | 所以我們來問你 |
| 00:11:09,000 | 00:11:11,000 | 我今天在問你就是說 |
| 00:11:11,000 | 00:11:12,000 | 你雖然在講公投 |
| 00:11:12,000 | 00:11:14,000 | 但答非所問 |
| 00:11:14,000 | 00:11:15,000 | 我問你的是 |
| 00:11:15,000 | 00:11:17,000 | 你支持哪一種模式 |
| 00:11:17,000 | 00:11:21,000 | 或者是你對痛苦到難以忍受 |
| 00:11:21,000 | 00:11:24,000 | 你認為在醫療上的 |
| 00:11:24,000 | 00:11:26,000 | 或是在法律上的 |
| 00:11:26,000 | 00:11:30,000 | 或者是在社會心理層次上的 |
| 00:11:30,000 | 00:11:33,000 | 他指涉的是什麼東西 |
| 00:11:33,000 | 00:11:34,000 | 這個跟委員說 |
| 00:11:34,000 | 00:11:36,000 | 我們在啟動這個安樂死的時候 |
| 00:11:36,000 | 00:11:38,000 | 你剛剛有 |
| 00:11:38,000 | 00:11:40,000 | 我相信你review了很多的報導 |
| 00:11:40,000 | 00:11:42,000 | 跟報告 |
| 00:11:42,000 | 00:11:44,000 | 那中間有一個很重要的關鍵 |
| 00:11:44,000 | 00:11:46,000 | 叫做滑坡效應 |
| 00:11:46,000 | 00:11:49,000 | 就是一旦你啟動了這個安樂死之後 |
| 00:11:49,000 | 00:11:52,000 | 就好像那個潘朵拉的盒子打開 |
| 00:11:52,000 | 00:11:54,000 | 你要很小心 |
| 00:11:54,000 | 00:11:57,000 | 因為它後面會有滑坡效應 |
| 00:11:57,000 | 00:11:59,000 | 那麼從現在開始討論 |
| 00:11:59,000 | 00:12:01,000 | 是從這個生命末期 |
| 00:12:01,000 | 00:12:03,000 | 到痛苦難耐 |
| 00:12:03,000 | 00:12:05,000 | 精神疾病要不要 |
| 00:12:05,000 | 00:12:08,000 | 精神的鑑定要不要 |
| 00:12:08,000 | 00:12:11,000 | 這些都是會一連串 |
| 00:12:11,000 | 00:12:12,000 | 會滾動的 |
| 00:12:12,000 | 00:12:14,000 | 所以像加拿大也是 |
| 00:12:14,000 | 00:12:16,000 | 你講這個就是在講加拿大 |
| 00:12:16,000 | 00:12:17,000 | 對 |
| 00:12:17,000 | 00:12:19,000 | 加拿大又從嚴謹的末期 |
| 00:12:19,000 | 00:12:21,000 | 剩下六個月 |
| 00:12:21,000 | 00:12:24,000 | 然後你說它開放到更寬鬆 |
| 00:12:24,000 | 00:12:26,000 | 然後它現在又往回退了 |
| 00:12:26,000 | 00:12:27,000 | 好 |
| 00:12:27,000 | 00:12:29,000 | 那你稱這個叫做滑坡效應 |
| 00:12:29,000 | 00:12:33,000 | 如果從我作為一個民意代表的角度來看 |
| 00:12:33,000 | 00:12:34,000 | 搞不好我的理解是 |
| 00:12:34,000 | 00:12:38,000 | 這是民意所向 |
| 00:12:38,000 | 00:12:40,000 | 人民想要呢 |
| 00:12:40,000 | 00:12:42,000 | 那也是人民想要 |
| 00:12:42,000 | 00:12:45,000 | 但民意會改變的 |
| 00:12:45,000 | 00:12:47,000 | 我知道人民的民意會改變 |
| 00:12:47,000 | 00:12:50,000 | 但是就是說你一下子說 |
| 00:12:50,000 | 00:12:51,000 | 我們要放寬 |
| 00:12:51,000 | 00:12:55,000 | 那生命就這樣子就寬鬆的 |
| 00:12:55,000 | 00:12:56,000 | 就可以選擇死亡了 |
| 00:12:56,000 | 00:12:58,000 | 但一下子又限縮 |
| 00:12:58,000 | 00:13:02,000 | 其實也是整體社會上一個 |
| 00:13:02,000 | 00:13:05,000 | 這種光是這樣的放寬限縮 |
| 00:13:05,000 | 00:13:08,000 | 就是一個爭議了 |
| 00:13:08,000 | 00:13:10,000 | 我們知道這是一個高度的爭議 |
| 00:13:10,000 | 00:13:11,000 | 但是就是說 |
| 00:13:11,000 | 00:13:13,000 | 如果我們台灣要討論安樂死 |
| 00:13:13,000 | 00:13:15,000 | 或是我們真的要坐下來 |
| 00:13:15,000 | 00:13:17,000 | 審這個安樂死的法案 |
| 00:13:17,000 | 00:13:19,000 | 我們在這裡不就是要討論這個嗎 |
| 00:13:19,000 | 00:13:22,000 | 可是這個哪裡是這幾個立委 |
| 00:13:22,000 | 00:13:24,000 | 有能力討論的 |
| 00:13:24,000 | 00:13:26,000 | 正因為沒有能力討論 |
| 00:13:26,000 | 00:13:28,000 | 然後你說大家直接來投同意反對 |
| 00:13:28,000 | 00:13:31,000 | 支持反對贊成反對 |
| 00:13:31,000 | 00:13:32,000 | 這也是不負責任 |
| 00:13:32,000 | 00:13:34,000 | 因為大家想像的到底是什麼 |
| 00:13:34,000 | 00:13:36,000 | 不一樣 |
| 00:13:36,000 | 00:13:41,000 | 那你直接要把這一條界線畫在哪裡 |
| 00:13:41,000 | 00:13:43,000 | 我聽你的想法是 |
| 00:13:43,000 | 00:13:45,000 | 你大概就擔憂的更多 |
| 00:13:45,000 | 00:13:47,000 | 但我告訴過你就是說 |
| 00:13:47,000 | 00:13:49,000 | 我個人是支持的 |
| 00:13:49,000 | 00:13:50,000 | 比如說是這樣子 |
| 00:13:50,000 | 00:13:52,000 | 那我們在想 |
| 00:13:52,000 | 00:13:53,000 | 包括提案的委員和政黨 |
| 00:13:53,000 | 00:13:55,000 | 也都是支持的 |
| 00:13:55,000 | 00:13:57,000 | 還有很多人民也是支持的 |
| 00:13:57,000 | 00:14:00,000 | 但我們支持的概念都不見得相同 |
| 00:14:00,000 | 00:14:03,000 | 那一條界線要畫在哪裡 |
| 00:14:03,000 | 00:14:07,000 | 要畫出來才能寫在法律裡面 |
| 00:14:07,000 | 00:14:10,000 | 然後這個事情絕對 |
| 00:14:10,000 | 00:14:12,000 | 有一個重點 |
| 00:14:12,000 | 00:14:13,000 | 要畫在哪裡 |
| 00:14:13,000 | 00:14:18,000 | 絕對不能夠授權給衛福部去訂定 |
| 00:14:18,000 | 00:14:20,000 | 不能交給主管機關 |
| 00:14:20,000 | 00:14:24,000 | 日後以辦法或醫療指引去決定 |
| 00:14:24,000 | 00:14:26,000 | 現在民眾黨的版本 |
| 00:14:26,000 | 00:14:28,000 | 未來要授權給你們 |
| 00:14:28,000 | 00:14:30,000 | 這個是絕對不行 |
| 00:14:30,000 | 00:14:32,000 | 這個這麼嚴肅的問題 |
| 00:14:32,000 | 00:14:35,000 | 不能夠在這裡訂一個很草率的法律 |
| 00:14:35,000 | 00:14:37,000 | 然後就交給衛福部去訂定 |
| 00:14:37,000 | 00:14:38,000 | 這是不行 |
| 00:14:38,000 | 00:14:40,000 | 細節上這不是細節 |
| 00:14:40,000 | 00:14:44,000 | 這不是單純的醫療技術的問題 |
| 00:14:44,000 | 00:14:48,000 | 而是國家必須公開做出的法律的選擇 |
| 00:14:48,000 | 00:14:51,000 | 這是立法院說立法者 |
| 00:14:51,000 | 00:14:53,000 | 立法者要決定 |
| 00:14:53,000 | 00:14:56,000 | 究竟在什麼樣的生命處境之下 |
| 00:14:56,000 | 00:15:00,000 | 可以允許醫療人員提供致死的藥物 |
| 00:15:00,000 | 00:15:02,000 | 去終結一個人的生命 |
| 00:15:02,000 | 00:15:03,000 | 所以在這裡 |
| 00:15:03,000 | 00:15:07,000 | 我想再跟你回到具體的 |
| 00:15:07,000 | 00:15:11,000 | 談到安樂死就一定要講 |
| 00:15:11,000 | 00:15:15,000 | 不管民眾黨的或是嚴謹的末期的 |
| 00:15:15,000 | 00:15:19,000 | 都一定要扣到一個無法忍受的痛苦 |
| 00:15:19,000 | 00:15:21,000 | 除了自主決定以外 |
| 00:15:21,000 | 00:15:25,000 | 還要扣住一個叫做無法忍受的痛苦 |
| 00:15:25,000 | 00:15:28,000 | 那無法忍受的痛苦到底是什麼 |
| 00:15:28,000 | 00:15:29,000 | 什麼 |
| 00:15:29,000 | 00:15:30,000 | 部長 |
| 00:15:30,000 | 00:15:33,000 | 你認為那個東西到底是什麼 |
| 00:15:34,000 | 00:15:35,000 | 這個 |
| 00:15:35,000 | 00:15:39,000 | 這個會有很多主客觀條件影響 |
| 00:15:39,000 | 00:15:43,000 | 所以對於痛苦的定義 |
| 00:15:43,000 | 00:15:47,000 | 還有能夠容受的每一個決定都不一樣 |
| 00:15:47,000 | 00:15:50,000 | 開放安樂死的 |
| 00:15:50,000 | 00:15:51,000 | 不能忍受的痛苦 |
| 00:15:51,000 | 00:15:53,000 | 無法忍受的痛苦 |
| 00:15:53,000 | 00:15:55,000 | 他們談的是什麼 |
| 00:15:56,000 | 00:15:59,000 | 如果是有開放的 |
| 00:15:59,000 | 00:16:01,000 | 他要通過這個 |
| 00:16:01,000 | 00:16:05,000 | 因為有些是只有在生命末期 |
| 00:16:05,000 | 00:16:07,000 | 那如果是開放到這麼重 |
| 00:16:07,000 | 00:16:10,000 | 生命末期大概就是所謂的病理上的 |
| 00:16:10,000 | 00:16:12,000 | 生理上的疼痛無法忍受 |
| 00:16:12,000 | 00:16:13,000 | 我們可以理解 |
| 00:16:13,000 | 00:16:15,000 | 對那個是容易掛鉤 |
| 00:16:15,000 | 00:16:17,000 | 但是沒有生命末期 |
| 00:16:17,000 | 00:16:19,000 | 民眾黨的版本不是生命末期 |
| 00:16:19,000 | 00:16:21,000 | 那真的是很模糊 |
| 00:16:21,000 | 00:16:23,000 | 剛剛那個委員說的 |
| 00:16:23,000 | 00:16:26,000 | 他的經濟困難到他想死 |
| 00:16:26,000 | 00:16:30,000 | 他也覺得很難忍受生命這麼的困難 |
| 00:16:30,000 | 00:16:33,000 | 這算不算痛苦 |
| 00:16:33,000 | 00:16:35,000 | 所以奧勒岡州 |
| 00:16:35,000 | 00:16:38,000 | 美國奧勒岡是比較局限的 |
| 00:16:38,000 | 00:16:41,000 | 他在2025年的官方資料顯示 |
| 00:16:41,000 | 00:16:43,000 | 他是限縮在生命末期 |
| 00:16:43,000 | 00:16:44,000 | 剩下六個月的 |
| 00:16:44,000 | 00:16:48,000 | 但是他在接受醫助死亡裡面 |
| 00:16:48,000 | 00:16:51,000 | 92%已經接受安寧療護了 |
| 00:16:51,000 | 00:16:55,000 | 但是同時這一些人也顯示說 |
| 00:16:55,000 | 00:16:56,000 | 失去自主 |
| 00:16:56,000 | 00:16:59,000 | 以及無法再從事有意義的活動 |
| 00:16:59,000 | 00:17:01,000 | 這樣子失去尊嚴 |
| 00:17:01,000 | 00:17:04,000 | 其實他們都很痛苦 |
| 00:17:04,000 | 00:17:05,000 | 失去尊嚴 |
| 00:17:05,000 | 00:17:08,000 | 然後失去自主 |
| 00:17:08,000 | 00:17:09,000 | 身體不停使喚 |
| 00:17:09,000 | 00:17:11,000 | 這個就是他們覺得很痛苦 |
| 00:17:11,000 | 00:17:14,000 | 但是相對寬鬆的加拿大 |
| 00:17:14,000 | 00:17:17,000 | 在2024年的資料顯示 |
| 00:17:17,000 | 00:17:19,000 | 最常見的痛苦來源是 |
| 00:17:19,000 | 00:17:22,000 | 無法從事有意義的活動 |
| 00:17:22,000 | 00:17:23,000 | 其次是 |
| 00:17:23,000 | 00:17:26,000 | 喪失日常生活的能力 |
| 00:17:26,000 | 00:17:27,000 | 獨立 |
| 00:17:27,000 | 00:17:29,000 | 喪失了獨立和尊嚴 |
| 00:17:29,000 | 00:17:31,000 | 疼痛控制不足 |
| 00:17:31,000 | 00:17:33,000 | 或是對疼痛的擔憂 |
| 00:17:33,000 | 00:17:35,000 | 反而排在後面 |
| 00:17:35,000 | 00:17:38,000 | 所以所謂的無法忍受的痛苦 |
| 00:17:38,000 | 00:17:40,000 | 病理上的 |
| 00:17:40,000 | 00:17:41,000 | 生理上的 |
| 00:17:41,000 | 00:17:44,000 | 疾病上的疼痛的擔憂 |
| 00:17:44,000 | 00:17:46,000 | 是排在後面的 |
| 00:17:46,000 | 00:17:48,000 | 所以最前面的是 |
| 00:17:48,000 | 00:17:50,000 | 喪失生活能力 |
| 00:17:50,000 | 00:17:53,000 | 然後喪失獨立和尊嚴 |
| 00:17:53,000 | 00:17:55,000 | 所以無法忍受的痛苦 |
| 00:17:55,000 | 00:17:57,000 | 不是只有身體的症狀 |
| 00:17:57,000 | 00:17:59,000 | 包括功能的喪失 |
| 00:17:59,000 | 00:18:01,000 | 然後病人對尊嚴自主 |
| 00:18:01,000 | 00:18:04,000 | 和生活意義的感受上 |
| 00:18:04,000 | 00:18:06,000 | 這個是很重要的 |
| 00:18:06,000 | 00:18:08,000 | 可是這些資料顯示 |
| 00:18:08,000 | 00:18:10,000 | 安樂死制度所稱的 |
| 00:18:10,000 | 00:18:11,000 | 無法忍受的痛苦 |
| 00:18:11,000 | 00:18:14,000 | 不是單一的醫學的症狀 |
| 00:18:14,000 | 00:18:15,000 | 包括了身體的症狀 |
| 00:18:15,000 | 00:18:16,000 | 功能的喪失 |
| 00:18:16,000 | 00:18:18,000 | 以及病人對尊嚴自主 |
| 00:18:18,000 | 00:18:19,000 | 和生活意義的感受 |
| 00:18:19,000 | 00:18:21,000 | 那醫生要評估 |
| 00:18:21,000 | 00:18:24,000 | 所謂醫學的症狀很容易 |
| 00:18:24,000 | 00:18:27,000 | 可是如果我們要評估一個人 |
| 00:18:27,000 | 00:18:29,000 | 能不能接受安樂死 |
| 00:18:29,000 | 00:18:32,000 | 你叫他從醫學上的評估 |
| 00:18:32,000 | 00:18:34,000 | 然後要變成說 |
| 00:18:34,000 | 00:18:38,000 | 他變成這個 |
| 00:18:38,000 | 00:18:41,000 | 到底是功能喪失上 |
| 00:18:41,000 | 00:18:42,000 | 尊嚴上自主上 |
| 00:18:42,000 | 00:18:44,000 | 或生活意義的感受上的痛苦 |
| 00:18:44,000 | 00:18:45,000 | 的評估 |
| 00:18:45,000 | 00:18:47,000 | 這就很困難了 |
| 00:18:47,000 | 00:18:49,000 | 這很困難 |
| 00:18:49,000 | 00:18:52,000 | 但是很多人 |
| 00:18:52,000 | 00:18:55,000 | 他沒有無法控制的疼痛 |
| 00:18:55,000 | 00:18:58,000 | 卻說包括我自己 |
| 00:18:58,000 | 00:19:00,000 | 或者是很多支持安樂死的 |
| 00:19:00,000 | 00:19:02,000 | 台灣的人民都會講說 |
| 00:19:02,000 | 00:19:05,000 | 我無法接受別人替我洗澡 |
| 00:19:05,000 | 00:19:06,000 | 替我餵食 |
| 00:19:06,000 | 00:19:08,000 | 替我清理排泄物 |
| 00:19:08,000 | 00:19:10,000 | 沒有尊嚴 |
| 00:19:10,000 | 00:19:11,000 | 失去自主 |
| 00:19:11,000 | 00:19:14,000 | 我沒有辦法接受我的身體 |
| 00:19:14,000 | 00:19:17,000 | 全部都不聽我使喚 |
| 00:19:17,000 | 00:19:20,000 | 那這就不只是疾病造成的痛苦 |
| 00:19:20,000 | 00:19:22,000 | 這也是對依賴別人 |
| 00:19:22,000 | 00:19:25,000 | 而活的價值的判斷 |
| 00:19:25,000 | 00:19:27,000 | 那這種感受能不能成為 |
| 00:19:27,000 | 00:19:29,000 | 安樂死的深情的理由 |
| 00:19:29,000 | 00:19:33,000 | 我想大多數人支持安樂死 |
| 00:19:33,000 | 00:19:36,000 | 可能都是來自於這一種 |
| 00:19:36,000 | 00:19:38,000 | 失去對自我身體的控制 |
| 00:19:38,000 | 00:19:40,000 | 全部依賴他人 |
| 00:19:40,000 | 00:19:42,000 | 毫無尊嚴 |
| 00:19:42,000 | 00:19:45,000 | 可能是這樣子的強烈的 |
| 00:19:45,000 | 00:19:48,000 | 這一種感受在支撐我們 |
| 00:19:48,000 | 00:19:50,000 | 全部都支持安樂死 |
| 00:19:50,000 | 00:19:52,000 | 可是你可不可以告訴我 |
| 00:19:52,000 | 00:19:56,000 | 在外國或者是現在的法律 |
| 00:19:56,000 | 00:19:59,000 | 架構草案裡面 |
| 00:19:59,000 | 00:20:02,000 | 這樣子就可以構成安樂死的條件嗎 |
| 00:20:02,000 | 00:20:06,000 | 在外國或是在我們兩個草案裡面 |
| 00:20:07,000 | 00:20:10,000 | 這個案子在加拿大發生過爭議 |
| 00:20:10,000 | 00:20:12,000 | 就是您提的這個暫子 |
| 00:20:12,000 | 00:20:14,000 | 他沒有辦法生活自理 |
| 00:20:14,000 | 00:20:17,000 | 所以他申請安樂死 |
| 00:20:17,000 | 00:20:18,000 | 對 |
| 00:20:18,000 | 00:20:19,000 | 就是這個案例 |
| 00:20:19,000 | 00:20:25,000 | 然後這個案例到最後是被駁回 |
| 00:20:25,000 | 00:20:28,000 | 因為他本來是有一個社會的 |
| 00:20:28,000 | 00:20:31,000 | 那個社福的支持 |
| 00:20:31,000 | 00:20:33,000 | 後來因為重新評估條件之後 |
| 00:20:33,000 | 00:20:35,000 | 他的社會支持給他減少 |
| 00:20:35,000 | 00:20:37,000 | 他因而提出 |
| 00:20:37,000 | 00:20:38,000 | 所以有社會支持 |
| 00:20:38,000 | 00:20:41,000 | 有照顧的服務進來 |
| 00:20:41,000 | 00:20:44,000 | 或許他就不會這麼高度的想要死 |
| 00:20:44,000 | 00:20:45,000 | 是 |
| 00:20:45,000 | 00:20:47,000 | 所以我們在這裡就是說 |
| 00:20:47,000 | 00:20:51,000 | 痛苦本來就是一種高度主觀的感覺 |
| 00:20:51,000 | 00:20:56,000 | 那一般外人你很難輕率的告訴病人說 |
| 00:20:56,000 | 00:20:58,000 | 你承受的痛苦並不嚴重 |
| 00:20:58,000 | 00:21:01,000 | 因為痛不痛苦是當事人最知道 |
| 00:21:01,000 | 00:21:05,000 | 你的痛苦不一定跟我的痛苦是一樣的 |
| 00:21:05,000 | 00:21:08,000 | 但是就是另一方面我們要考慮 |
| 00:21:08,000 | 00:21:10,000 | 只要本人認為某種生活狀態 |
| 00:21:10,000 | 00:21:11,000 | 已經不能接受了 |
| 00:21:11,000 | 00:21:15,000 | 然後醫生就可能被要求要認定他的痛苦 |
| 00:21:15,000 | 00:21:18,000 | 已經達到可以合法終止他生命的程度嗎 |
| 00:21:18,000 | 00:21:20,000 | 可以嗎 |
| 00:21:20,000 | 00:21:22,000 | 這個叫醫生也真的很困難 |
| 00:21:22,000 | 00:21:23,000 | 真的很困難 |
| 00:21:23,000 | 00:21:27,000 | 這個不是只有單純的醫療專業的判斷而已 |
| 00:21:27,000 | 00:21:30,000 | 剛剛我們提到說是不是已經沒有其他的方式 |
| 00:21:30,000 | 00:21:32,000 | 因為有一個很重要的條件就是 |
| 00:21:32,000 | 00:21:36,000 | 沒有其他的方式可以緩解他的痛苦 |
| 00:21:36,000 | 00:21:38,000 | 解決他的痛苦才會 |
| 00:21:38,000 | 00:21:39,000 | 不是啦 |
| 00:21:39,000 | 00:21:42,000 | 到底什麼的痛苦是生理上病理上的 |
| 00:21:42,000 | 00:21:44,000 | 還是我們剛剛講失去尊嚴 |
| 00:21:44,000 | 00:21:45,000 | 完全失能 |
| 00:21:45,000 | 00:21:46,000 | 完全依賴他人 |
| 00:21:46,000 | 00:21:49,000 | 然後這一種或者是說 |
| 00:21:49,000 | 00:21:52,000 | 還要被剝奪了照顧以後 |
| 00:21:52,000 | 00:21:54,000 | 我就變成這痛苦 |
| 00:21:54,000 | 00:21:56,000 | 國家資源給我剝奪減少了 |
| 00:21:56,000 | 00:21:57,000 | 我也覺得很痛苦 |
| 00:21:57,000 | 00:21:59,000 | 這樣子就可以合法終止生命嗎 |
| 00:21:59,000 | 00:22:02,000 | 所以我們的法律的架構 |
| 00:22:02,000 | 00:22:04,000 | 我看到的寬鬆的版本 |
| 00:22:04,000 | 00:22:06,000 | 就是以無法忍受的痛苦 |
| 00:22:06,000 | 00:22:08,000 | 和現在醫療無法解決 |
| 00:22:08,000 | 00:22:10,000 | 就作為安樂死的資格的話 |
| 00:22:10,000 | 00:22:12,000 | 這個恐怕也是 |
| 00:22:12,000 | 00:22:16,000 | 我大家倫理上要大家一起討論 |
| 00:22:16,000 | 00:22:17,000 | 因為我簡單的講 |
| 00:22:17,000 | 00:22:19,000 | 中風大多數的中風 |
| 00:22:19,000 | 00:22:23,000 | 而且是全身癱瘓的那種中風 |
| 00:22:23,000 | 00:22:26,000 | 他有辦法現在醫療可以回復嗎 |
| 00:22:26,000 | 00:22:28,000 | 可能不行 |
| 00:22:28,000 | 00:22:31,000 | 但是他是完全失能 |
| 00:22:31,000 | 00:22:37,000 | 但是他個人也有人覺得不痛苦 |
| 00:22:37,000 | 00:22:38,000 | 但也有很多人覺得 |
| 00:22:38,000 | 00:22:41,000 | 這樣子沒有意義的活著很痛苦 |
| 00:22:41,000 | 00:22:43,000 | 在這種狀況裡面 |
| 00:22:43,000 | 00:22:45,000 | 這樣子就可以作為安樂死的資格嗎 |
| 00:22:45,000 | 00:22:48,000 | 在外國可能是沒那麼容易 |
| 00:22:48,000 | 00:22:50,000 | 沒那麼容易 |
| 00:22:50,000 | 00:22:54,000 | 但我不知道提出這種法案的 |
| 00:22:54,000 | 00:22:56,000 | 政黨想的是什麼 |
| 00:22:56,000 | 00:22:58,000 | 但是我可以肯定的告訴你 |
| 00:22:58,000 | 00:23:01,000 | 很多人跟我想法一樣 |
| 00:23:01,000 | 00:23:03,000 | 只要這樣子我就想要死 |
| 00:23:03,000 | 00:23:08,000 | 但是恐怕法律不敢這樣子定 |
| 00:23:08,000 | 00:23:12,000 | 因為醫生也不想要扛起這樣的責任 |
| 00:23:12,000 | 00:23:15,000 | 扮演起上帝的角色 |
| 00:23:15,000 | 00:23:17,000 | 因為那個痛苦可能 |
| 00:23:17,000 | 00:23:20,000 | 生理上病理上沒那麼大的痛苦 |
| 00:23:20,000 | 00:23:23,000 | 可是心理壓力的尊嚴的 |
| 00:23:23,000 | 00:23:25,000 | 失去尊嚴的痛苦 |
| 00:23:25,000 | 00:23:27,000 | 有的人把尊嚴看得很重 |
| 00:23:27,000 | 00:23:31,000 | 有的人不一定把尊嚴看得那麼重 |
| 00:23:31,000 | 00:23:34,000 | 所以這樣子到底那條線要劃在哪裡 |
| 00:23:34,000 | 00:23:36,000 | 我覺得我們今天就是一直要 |
| 00:23:36,000 | 00:23:38,000 | 不斷地來討論這個問題 |
| 00:23:38,000 | 00:23:41,000 | 那無法忍受的痛苦 |
| 00:23:41,000 | 00:23:43,000 | 這個東西要由誰來判斷 |
| 00:23:43,000 | 00:23:46,000 | 那有沒有辦法 |
| 00:23:46,000 | 00:23:47,000 | 可能啦 |
| 00:23:47,000 | 00:23:49,000 | 痛苦是真實的存在 |
| 00:23:49,000 | 00:23:50,000 | 但是呢 |
| 00:23:50,000 | 00:23:51,000 | 但是呢 |
| 00:23:51,000 | 00:23:53,000 | 如果像剛才講的 |
| 00:23:53,000 | 00:23:56,000 | 你的經濟的資源進來了 |
| 00:23:56,000 | 00:23:59,000 | 你的家人如果沒有存在 |
| 00:23:59,000 | 00:24:01,000 | 國家的力量也進來了 |
| 00:24:01,000 | 00:24:04,000 | 事實上痛苦是會減輕的 |
| 00:24:04,000 | 00:24:05,000 | 所以我們一直在講的是說 |
| 00:24:05,000 | 00:24:06,000 | 這個自主 |
| 00:24:06,000 | 00:24:10,000 | 除了說不能忍受的痛苦以外 |
| 00:24:10,000 | 00:24:12,000 | 再來就是自主選擇 |
| 00:24:12,000 | 00:24:14,000 | 到底是真的自主 |
| 00:24:14,000 | 00:24:18,000 | 還是被迫沒得選擇的自主 |
| 00:24:19,000 | 00:24:22,000 | 所以是尊重病人的自主很重要 |
| 00:24:22,000 | 00:24:24,000 | 但自主不是說 |
| 00:24:24,000 | 00:24:28,000 | 我們開始諮商評估他的心智 |
| 00:24:28,000 | 00:24:30,000 | 你真的是自主選擇要安樂死的嗎 |
| 00:24:30,000 | 00:24:32,000 | 對我真的是 |
| 00:24:32,000 | 00:24:35,000 | 但是你還要去確認一件事情 |
| 00:24:35,000 | 00:24:38,000 | 你為什麼想要選擇安樂死 |
| 00:24:38,000 | 00:24:42,000 | 你真的死亡的意願是如何形成的 |
| 00:24:42,000 | 00:24:44,000 | 所以你在法律上確認說 |
| 00:24:44,000 | 00:24:47,000 | 我是自主選擇的 |
| 00:24:47,000 | 00:24:48,000 | 那你只能證明說對 |
| 00:24:48,000 | 00:24:50,000 | 我是自主選擇的 |
| 00:24:50,000 | 00:24:52,000 | 可是你卻不能夠回答到 |
| 00:24:52,000 | 00:24:55,000 | 這個自主選擇想要死亡的意願 |
| 00:24:55,000 | 00:24:58,000 | 是在什麼樣的條件之下 |
| 00:24:58,000 | 00:25:01,000 | 你讓他會做這種選擇 |
| 00:25:01,000 | 00:25:03,000 | 一個人可能會因為憂鬱 |
| 00:25:03,000 | 00:25:05,000 | 當望孤獨經濟困難 |
| 00:25:05,000 | 00:25:07,000 | 失能長期依賴他人失去尊嚴 |
| 00:25:07,000 | 00:25:10,000 | 而逐漸認為自己不想活了 |
| 00:25:10,000 | 00:25:12,000 | 那這些因素未必使病人 |
| 00:25:12,000 | 00:25:15,000 | 喪失意識的能力 |
| 00:25:15,000 | 00:25:19,000 | 就是說對我可以自主做決定說我不想活了 |
| 00:25:19,000 | 00:25:22,000 | 但卻可能影響他如果看待自己的處境 |
| 00:25:22,000 | 00:25:25,000 | 以及是否自己還有其他選擇 |
| 00:25:25,000 | 00:25:27,000 | 如果說你的經濟困難 |
| 00:25:27,000 | 00:25:29,000 | 國家願意幫助你 |
| 00:25:29,000 | 00:25:31,000 | 如果說你的失能 |
| 00:25:31,000 | 00:25:33,000 | 不要拖累你的家人 |
| 00:25:33,000 | 00:25:35,000 | 國家的照顧體系會進來 |
| 00:25:35,000 | 00:25:37,000 | 請問你你會不會改變 |
| 00:25:37,000 | 00:25:39,000 | 你的想要死的意願 |
| 00:25:39,000 | 00:25:41,000 | 有可能當然有可能 |
| 00:25:41,000 | 00:25:43,000 | 好那我要講現在相關研究顯示 |
| 00:25:43,000 | 00:25:46,000 | 默契的病人希望加速死亡 |
| 00:25:46,000 | 00:25:49,000 | 也通常也不是單一症狀說 |
| 00:25:49,000 | 00:25:50,000 | 痛苦都不堪 |
| 00:25:50,000 | 00:25:53,000 | 其實心理困擾失去自主自我認同 |
| 00:25:53,000 | 00:25:55,000 | 也是同時複雜的交付的存在的 |
| 00:25:55,000 | 00:25:58,000 | 但是呢總之連默契的人 |
| 00:25:58,000 | 00:25:59,000 | 都有一種就是 |
| 00:25:59,000 | 00:26:02,000 | 自覺到成為他人的負擔 |
| 00:26:02,000 | 00:26:04,000 | 可能涉及到病人 |
| 00:26:04,000 | 00:26:07,000 | 因為無法再回應家人的付出 |
| 00:26:07,000 | 00:26:10,000 | 而產生了內疚虧欠和責任感 |
| 00:26:10,000 | 00:26:13,000 | 這個讓連默契的病人都存在 |
| 00:26:13,000 | 00:26:14,000 | 然後也想要死 |
| 00:26:14,000 | 00:26:16,000 | 所以這就是真正的現實 |
| 00:26:16,000 | 00:26:17,000 | 就是也是台灣 |
| 00:26:17,000 | 00:26:19,000 | 必須要特別注意的地方 |
| 00:26:19,000 | 00:26:22,000 | 就是很多年紀的長輩 |
| 00:26:22,000 | 00:26:25,000 | 跟我講說你要趕快安樂死立法 |
| 00:26:25,000 | 00:26:27,000 | 他們都這樣跟我講 |
| 00:26:27,000 | 00:26:29,000 | 年長的人他們講說 |
| 00:26:29,000 | 00:26:31,000 | 我不想拖累家人 |
| 00:26:31,000 | 00:26:34,000 | 這未必是家人提出了什麼要求 |
| 00:26:34,000 | 00:26:35,000 | 是他自己就說 |
| 00:26:35,000 | 00:26:37,000 | 我不想拖累家人 |
| 00:26:37,000 | 00:26:39,000 | 然後很多長輩就是看見 |
| 00:26:39,000 | 00:26:42,000 | 年邁的配偶沒有體力了 |
| 00:26:42,000 | 00:26:44,000 | 子女陪病影響了工作 |
| 00:26:44,000 | 00:26:48,000 | 或者是家庭又要長期負擔看護 |
| 00:26:48,000 | 00:26:51,000 | 或者是機構的費用很重 |
| 00:26:51,000 | 00:26:52,000 | 然後這認為說 |
| 00:26:52,000 | 00:26:55,000 | 未來要減輕家人的負擔 |
| 00:26:55,000 | 00:26:58,000 | 是自己作為家庭的一份子 |
| 00:26:58,000 | 00:27:01,000 | 最後可以為家人做的 |
| 00:27:01,000 | 00:27:02,000 | 所以也是自己 |
| 00:27:02,000 | 00:27:04,000 | 應該要去承擔的責任 |
| 00:27:04,000 | 00:27:05,000 | 難道不是嗎 |
| 00:27:05,000 | 00:27:08,000 | 多少人是因為這樣子 |
| 00:27:08,000 | 00:27:13,000 | 真的 那這個是真正的自主嗎 |
| 00:27:13,000 | 00:27:16,000 | 這個是真正的自主嗎 |
| 00:27:17,000 | 00:27:19,000 | 加拿大衛生部2024年的 |
| 00:27:19,000 | 00:27:22,000 | 醫助死亡報告也指出 |
| 00:27:22,000 | 00:27:24,000 | 認為自己成為家人朋友 |
| 00:27:24,000 | 00:27:26,000 | 或照顧者的負擔 |
| 00:27:26,000 | 00:27:29,000 | 是近半數接受醫助死亡者 |
| 00:27:29,000 | 00:27:32,000 | 被記錄的痛苦的來源 |
| 00:27:32,000 | 00:27:35,000 | 第一軌的末期的快死的 |
| 00:27:35,000 | 00:27:37,000 | 也認為自己成為負擔的 |
| 00:27:37,000 | 00:27:39,000 | 有48.4% |
| 00:27:39,000 | 00:27:42,000 | 第二軌他還沒有末期 |
| 00:27:42,000 | 00:27:46,000 | 但是他還是有50%想要死 |
| 00:27:46,000 | 00:27:49,000 | 是因為怕自己成為家人的負擔 |
| 00:27:49,000 | 00:27:53,000 | 所以在這裡真的這個負擔 |
| 00:27:53,000 | 00:27:56,000 | 加上其他痛苦交織在一起 |
| 00:27:56,000 | 00:27:58,000 | 法律真正要確認的是什麼 |
| 00:27:58,000 | 00:28:01,000 | 我們在這裡立法 討論立法 |
| 00:28:01,000 | 00:28:02,000 | 法律要真正確認的是 |
| 00:28:02,000 | 00:28:05,000 | 如果病人的疼痛獲得控制 |
| 00:28:05,000 | 00:28:07,000 | 所需要的長照 |
| 00:28:07,000 | 00:28:10,000 | 心理和經濟支持已經實際提供 |
| 00:28:10,000 | 00:28:13,000 | 家人不必承擔超出能力的 |
| 00:28:13,000 | 00:28:15,000 | 照顧工作與支出 |
| 00:28:15,000 | 00:28:18,000 | 他是否仍然會堅定的 |
| 00:28:18,000 | 00:28:22,000 | 持續的希望結束生命呢 |
| 00:28:22,000 | 00:28:23,000 | 但是我在這裡要跟你說 |
| 00:28:23,000 | 00:28:26,000 | 部長這個時候這件事情 |
| 00:28:26,000 | 00:28:29,000 | 就跟國家的責任有關 |
| 00:28:29,000 | 00:28:31,000 | 因為很多人可能會說 |
| 00:28:31,000 | 00:28:33,000 | 我還是想要 為什麼 |
| 00:28:33,000 | 00:28:37,000 | 因為我不認為國家會 |
| 00:28:37,000 | 00:28:40,000 | 幫我們擔起這麼多的責任 |
| 00:28:40,000 | 00:28:43,000 | 有能力擔起這麼多的責任 |
| 00:28:43,000 | 00:28:46,000 | 我們也不認為少子女化以後 |
| 00:28:46,000 | 00:28:50,000 | 這個看護的責任會降低 |
| 00:28:50,000 | 00:28:54,000 | 所以我覺得這個東西真的是 |
| 00:28:54,000 | 00:28:56,000 | 我覺得時常在掙扎 |
| 00:28:56,000 | 00:28:57,000 | 因為我個人真的是 |
| 00:28:57,000 | 00:29:00,000 | 高度的支持安樂死 |
| 00:29:00,000 | 00:29:03,000 | 但我也知道很多人 |
| 00:29:03,000 | 00:29:05,000 | 沒有這麼堅定 |
| 00:29:05,000 | 00:29:08,000 | 可是那些人你要去期待 |
| 00:29:08,000 | 00:29:10,000 | 照顧的體系進來 |
| 00:29:10,000 | 00:29:12,000 | 經濟的負擔減輕 |
| 00:29:12,000 | 00:29:14,000 | 然後家庭的看護的責任 |
| 00:29:14,000 | 00:29:15,000 | 不要那麼重 |
| 00:29:15,000 | 00:29:17,000 | 是不可期待的 |
| 00:29:17,000 | 00:29:20,000 | 是期待但是不可期待的 |
| 00:29:20,000 | 00:29:21,000 | 所以在這裡 |
| 00:29:21,000 | 00:29:22,000 | 我要再講一次 |
| 00:29:22,000 | 00:29:23,000 | 最後我要講 |
| 00:29:23,000 | 00:29:24,000 | 我知道很多很長的時間 |
| 00:29:24,000 | 00:29:27,000 | 就是說當死亡成為合法的選項 |
| 00:29:27,000 | 00:29:30,000 | 國家真的要如何去確認 |
| 00:29:30,000 | 00:29:34,000 | 病人是不是還有其他的選擇 |
| 00:29:34,000 | 00:29:36,000 | 這個事情很重要 |
| 00:29:36,000 | 00:29:39,000 | 因為只要安樂死合法化以後 |
| 00:29:39,000 | 00:29:41,000 | 不是增加一個選項而已 |
| 00:29:41,000 | 00:29:44,000 | 它會改變整體這個社會裡面 |
| 00:29:44,000 | 00:29:47,000 | 所有高齡者 失能者 |
| 00:29:47,000 | 00:29:49,000 | 長期依賴照顧者 |
| 00:29:49,000 | 00:29:52,000 | 他如何去看待自己 |
| 00:29:52,000 | 00:29:55,000 | 要不要活著 要不要存在 |
| 00:29:55,000 | 00:29:58,000 | 當死亡成為合法的選項的時候 |
| 00:29:58,000 | 00:30:01,000 | 國家要必須避免任何人 |
| 00:30:01,000 | 00:30:03,000 | 因為需要他人照顧 |
| 00:30:03,000 | 00:30:06,000 | 而逐漸覺得自己必須向家人 |
| 00:30:06,000 | 00:30:07,000 | 或社會解釋 |
| 00:30:07,000 | 00:30:10,000 | 為什麼還想要繼續活下去 |
| 00:30:10,000 | 00:30:14,000 | 然後也必須要告訴自己說 |
| 00:30:14,000 | 00:30:17,000 | 不要成為家人的累贅 |
| 00:30:17,000 | 00:30:20,000 | 不要帶著愧疚 內疚這樣活著 |
| 00:30:21,000 | 00:30:25,000 | 所以我的個人的想法 |
| 00:30:25,000 | 00:30:28,000 | 跟這個社會很多人的想法 |
| 00:30:28,000 | 00:30:30,000 | 都是說 我再說一次 |
| 00:30:30,000 | 00:30:31,000 | 我們支持安樂死 |
| 00:30:31,000 | 00:30:34,000 | 但是安樂死我們想像的 |
| 00:30:34,000 | 00:30:38,000 | 跟立法者所訂的不會一樣 |
| 00:30:38,000 | 00:30:40,000 | 不見得會一樣 |
| 00:30:40,000 | 00:30:44,000 | 然後我還是認為照顧的處境 |
| 00:30:44,000 | 00:30:46,000 | 和社會的處境 |
| 00:30:46,000 | 00:30:49,000 | 家庭的關係 經濟的要件 |
| 00:30:49,000 | 00:30:52,000 | 一定要充分的審視這一些要件 |
| 00:30:52,000 | 00:30:55,000 | 要確認自主的意願 |
| 00:30:55,000 | 00:30:58,000 | 不是被迫的 是真的自主 |
| 00:30:58,000 | 00:31:00,000 | 可是這真的很難 |
| 00:31:00,000 | 00:31:02,000 | 而且還要有 |
| 00:31:02,000 | 00:31:05,000 | 這個是真正的自主的選擇 |
| 00:31:05,000 | 00:31:08,000 | 到底是不是 還是被迫的 |
| 00:31:08,000 | 00:31:10,000 | 這真的是很難的 |
| 00:31:10,000 | 00:31:11,000 | 這個在已經施行的國家 |
| 00:31:11,000 | 00:31:12,000 | 或者是台灣 |
| 00:31:12,000 | 00:31:15,000 | 現在社會要高度的對話的時候 |
| 00:31:15,000 | 00:31:17,000 | 我們都應該要仔細的想 |
| 00:31:17,000 | 00:31:18,000 | 仔細的想 |
| 00:31:18,000 | 00:31:21,000 | 而不是只是公投支持反對 |
| 00:31:21,000 | 00:31:23,000 | 這是不負責任的 |
| 00:31:24,000 | 00:31:26,000 | 那你覺得呢 |
| 00:31:26,000 | 00:31:27,000 | 謝謝委員 |
| 00:31:27,000 | 00:31:28,000 | 不是支持或反對 |
| 00:31:28,000 | 00:31:29,000 | 給了我們 |
| 00:31:29,000 | 00:31:31,000 | 你知道國家的責任很深刻的一刻 |
| 00:31:31,000 | 00:31:33,000 | 因為被迫選擇 |
| 00:31:33,000 | 00:31:35,000 | 這個裡面有一大部分是來自於 |
| 00:31:35,000 | 00:31:39,000 | 國家要進場 有責任 |
| 00:31:39,000 | 00:31:42,000 | 但是我也知道這個財政負擔 |
| 00:31:42,000 | 00:31:43,000 | 真的沒那麼容易 |
| 00:31:43,000 | 00:31:45,000 | 很難很難 |
| 00:31:46,000 | 00:31:48,000 | 但是你們到底 |
| 00:31:48,000 | 00:31:50,000 | 好吧 今天只是第一場 |
| 00:31:50,000 | 00:31:53,000 | 我們不希望 不期待會有 |
| 00:31:53,000 | 00:31:55,000 | 直接有答案 |
| 00:31:55,000 | 00:31:58,000 | 好 謝謝委員 謝謝 |