iVOD / 170782
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廖偉翔 @ 第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:07,000 | 謝謝主席 |
| 00:00:07,000 | 00:00:14,000 | 有請石崇良部長跟我們國教署的彭富源署長 |
| 00:00:14,000 | 00:00:17,000 | 好 有請石部長跟彭署長 |
| 00:00:17,000 | 00:00:21,000 | 好 委員好 部長好 署長好 |
| 00:00:21,000 | 00:00:24,000 | 今天討論到這個人略的議題 |
| 00:00:24,000 | 00:00:27,000 | 你是不是還記得我上一次在質詢的時候 |
| 00:00:27,000 | 00:00:29,000 | 有一個相關的提出 |
| 00:00:29,000 | 00:00:32,000 | 指出過有一個標案 |
| 00:00:32,000 | 00:00:40,000 | 民眾要求地方政府落實與其官網登載之違法脫獄人員案情及資訊 |
| 00:00:40,000 | 00:00:45,000 | 那因與本部的社家署建置CRC的資訊網 |
| 00:00:45,000 | 00:00:50,000 | 違反兒少法裁罰專區呈現的資訊已至 |
| 00:00:50,000 | 00:00:56,000 | 結果之前震驚各界的這個胸口碎大石的虐兒案 |
| 00:00:56,000 | 00:01:02,000 | 有說過他們分別在2024年的3月27號有被罰6000元 |
| 00:01:02,000 | 00:01:08,000 | 然後教保服務人員對於幼兒有非屬情節重大之不當對待行為 |
| 00:01:08,000 | 00:01:13,000 | 那他在2024年又有4月18號也是有罰緩6000元 |
| 00:01:13,000 | 00:01:20,000 | 教保服務機構有教保服務人員對兒幼兒不當對待的行為 |
| 00:01:20,000 | 00:01:23,000 | 這兩筆資料在你們的系統中還是找不到 |
| 00:01:23,000 | 00:01:26,000 | 請問你們有釐清原因了嗎 |
| 00:01:30,000 | 00:01:31,000 | 沒辦法回答 |
| 00:01:31,000 | 00:01:36,000 | 當時就有說你們為什麼找不到相關的紀錄 |
| 00:01:36,000 | 00:01:38,000 | 我上次就有問過了 |
| 00:01:38,000 | 00:01:41,000 | 你們會去還是沒有釐清為什麼會找不到嗎 |
| 00:01:41,000 | 00:01:45,000 | 委員是說在那個教保系統上面 |
| 00:01:45,000 | 00:01:48,000 | 就是你們社家署的CRC資訊網裡面 |
| 00:01:48,000 | 00:01:53,000 | 要呈現兒少裁罰專區要呈現資訊一致 |
| 00:01:53,000 | 00:01:57,000 | 那我之前有說過胸口碎大石案的虐兒案 |
| 00:01:57,000 | 00:02:01,000 | 那個時候我說他們分別其實就有在2024年的3月27號 |
| 00:02:01,000 | 00:02:04,000 | 跟2024年的4月18號都有違規的事件 |
| 00:02:04,000 | 00:02:05,000 | 有被裁罰 |
| 00:02:05,000 | 00:02:08,000 | 那為什麼你們的網站上面沒有找不到 |
| 00:02:08,000 | 00:02:11,000 | 我說你們當時要回去釐清原因你們釐清了嗎 |
| 00:02:12,000 | 00:02:17,000 | 跟委員說明我們現在目前的做法是用連結過去 |
| 00:02:17,000 | 00:02:20,000 | 連結到教保系統那邊去 |
| 00:02:20,000 | 00:02:21,000 | 連結過去 |
| 00:02:21,000 | 00:02:23,000 | 我去查還是沒有啊 |
| 00:02:23,000 | 00:02:24,000 | 沒有連結 |
| 00:02:24,000 | 00:02:26,000 | 那你們原因是什麼沒有這兩案啊 |
| 00:02:28,000 | 00:02:30,000 | 那是應該在教保系統裡面 |
| 00:02:30,000 | 00:02:31,000 | 對 |
| 00:02:31,000 | 00:02:32,000 | 沒有那兩案 |
| 00:02:32,000 | 00:02:34,000 | 那你們的沒有你們社家署也沒有啊 |
| 00:02:34,000 | 00:02:37,000 | 因為我們的是用連結的方式過去 |
| 00:02:37,000 | 00:02:40,000 | 好我跟你說我去幫你們查的原因好不好 |
| 00:02:40,000 | 00:02:42,000 | 這個署長也應該要了解一下 |
| 00:02:43,000 | 00:02:47,000 | 現行規定你們教育部的確就有所謂的 |
| 00:02:47,000 | 00:02:49,000 | 輕罪下架的原則 |
| 00:02:50,000 | 00:02:52,000 | 也就是說只要間隔一段時間 |
| 00:02:52,000 | 00:02:56,000 | 即便有違規有不當對待的記錄的保姆或幼兒園 |
| 00:02:56,000 | 00:03:00,000 | 他記錄也會因為輕罪下架而被抹掉 |
| 00:03:00,000 | 00:03:01,000 | 直接原地的消失 |
| 00:03:01,000 | 00:03:04,000 | 未來在你們的資料庫也查不到 |
| 00:03:04,000 | 00:03:08,000 | 所以衛福部你們去連接教育部的資料的時候 |
| 00:03:08,000 | 00:03:10,000 | 你就會因為他下架了你找不到 |
| 00:03:11,000 | 00:03:13,000 | 你現在才知道嗎部長 |
| 00:03:13,000 | 00:03:14,000 | 我不知道有這個 |
| 00:03:14,000 | 00:03:16,000 | 所以我現在就是告訴你 |
| 00:03:16,000 | 00:03:19,000 | 我叫你們回去釐清狀況你們根本沒有釐清嘛 |
| 00:03:19,000 | 00:03:24,000 | 所以這個部分是由前任的部長潘文忠時期所發布的公告 |
| 00:03:24,000 | 00:03:27,000 | 我想確認一下這樣子的做法 |
| 00:03:27,000 | 00:03:30,000 | 現在署長和我們衛福部部長 |
| 00:03:30,000 | 00:03:32,000 | 你們贊同這樣的做法嗎 |
| 00:03:32,000 | 00:03:41,000 | 這個我們還是會回到我們現在的兒少跟未來的這個 |
| 00:03:41,000 | 00:03:44,000 | 我就問你簡單的你認同這樣的做法嗎 |
| 00:03:44,000 | 00:03:46,000 | 他有一些資訊需要揭露的 |
| 00:03:46,000 | 00:03:50,000 | 來部長回答你們認不認同這樣子當初訂下來的做法 |
| 00:03:50,000 | 00:03:52,000 | 剛剛委員報告 |
| 00:03:52,000 | 00:03:57,000 | 第一點當時這樣的一個做法是跟地方政府還有相關的團體一起規劃 |
| 00:03:57,000 | 00:04:00,000 | 沒事部長 署長簡單回答我你認不認同 |
| 00:04:00,000 | 00:04:02,000 | 未來在相關的那個時限上 |
| 00:04:02,000 | 00:04:06,000 | 會列入我們跟最近一次地方政府的一起討論 |
| 00:04:06,000 | 00:04:09,000 | 所以你認同還是不認同 |
| 00:04:09,000 | 00:04:11,000 | 跟委員報告因為這會涉及到可能 |
| 00:04:11,000 | 00:04:15,000 | 譬如說我們可以罰到6000一直到6000萬 |
| 00:04:15,000 | 00:04:17,000 | 哪一個界限 |
| 00:04:17,000 | 00:04:19,000 | 這裡我已經呈現出來的確 |
| 00:04:19,000 | 00:04:21,000 | 你說沒有6000的是三個月 |
| 00:04:21,000 | 00:04:23,000 | 多少錢的是六個月 |
| 00:04:23,000 | 00:04:27,000 | 是因為這涉及到剛剛講的裁罰的輕重之後配以 |
| 00:04:27,000 | 00:04:28,000 | 他是多少期限 |
| 00:04:28,000 | 00:04:29,000 | 部長署長我們一起來 |
| 00:04:29,000 | 00:04:32,000 | 我跟你們說這也是一個很重要的系統性漏洞 |
| 00:04:32,000 | 00:04:34,000 | 這是一個系統性的問題 |
| 00:04:34,000 | 00:04:37,000 | 有這樣的漏洞也是雙重疊加的後果 |
| 00:04:37,000 | 00:04:41,000 | 所以我剛說最早可以追溯到上一屆111年的5月31號 |
| 00:04:41,000 | 00:04:44,000 | 你們新增了一個61條第四項 |
| 00:04:44,000 | 00:04:47,000 | 把公布多久的權限移交給教育部 |
| 00:04:47,000 | 00:04:51,000 | 包含公布負責人行為人機構名稱及常職者 |
| 00:04:51,000 | 00:04:55,000 | 其公布期間由中央主管機關定支 |
| 00:04:55,000 | 00:04:58,000 | 然後後來教育部就做出一個非常荒謬的決定 |
| 00:04:58,000 | 00:05:01,000 | 就是資料庫針對裁罰對象最短最短 |
| 00:05:01,000 | 00:05:04,000 | 只要公布三個月就可以刪掉 |
| 00:05:04,000 | 00:05:07,000 | 所以我想要請教部長或者署長 |
| 00:05:07,000 | 00:05:14,000 | 右教法的第61條第四項及教保人員條例的第49條第四項 |
| 00:05:14,000 | 00:05:18,000 | 有不公布或者是輕罪下架的空間嗎 |
| 00:05:18,000 | 00:05:20,000 | 有這樣子說嗎 |
| 00:05:21,000 | 00:05:25,000 | 部委員這個在兩法對於 |
| 00:05:25,000 | 00:05:28,000 | 譬如說不讓管教或是重大的爭議 |
| 00:05:28,000 | 00:05:30,000 | 在第51條28條等等 |
| 00:05:30,000 | 00:05:33,000 | 這個是會比較重的公布 |
| 00:05:33,000 | 00:05:36,000 | 那剛剛委員講這個當時在相關的預告上 |
| 00:05:36,000 | 00:05:39,000 | 之後有一些討論包含法學專家 |
| 00:05:39,000 | 00:05:40,000 | 好署長你先不用 |
| 00:05:40,000 | 00:05:43,000 | 實現過了以後 |
| 00:05:43,000 | 00:05:45,000 | 其實我們也一直接到一些聲明 |
| 00:05:45,000 | 00:05:46,000 | 所以我要告訴你為什麼 |
| 00:05:46,000 | 00:05:47,000 | 會持續檢討 |
| 00:05:47,000 | 00:05:49,000 | 為什麼我要提出這件事情是一個系統性的問題 |
| 00:05:49,000 | 00:05:51,000 | 因為在今年四月的時候 |
| 00:05:51,000 | 00:05:56,000 | 台南中西區的愛迪生資優幼兒園 |
| 00:05:56,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 爆發一起重大惡劣 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:06:03,000 | 把小孩子關進紙箱搖晃推頭壓臉強迫餵食 |
| 00:06:03,000 | 00:06:06,000 | 那你知道幼兒園早在2019年的時候 |
| 00:06:06,000 | 00:06:08,000 | 其實就已經有兩起違規紀錄 |
| 00:06:08,000 | 00:06:11,000 | 那他分別被裁罰了15000跟3000元 |
| 00:06:11,000 | 00:06:14,000 | 但是你們現在資訊呢 |
| 00:06:14,000 | 00:06:15,000 | 家長是查不到的 |
| 00:06:15,000 | 00:06:17,000 | 也就是說他被測下來之後 |
| 00:06:17,000 | 00:06:20,000 | 2020年2021年之後可能他就查不到了 |
| 00:06:20,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 然後這個被公佈的負責人謝姓負責人 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:28,000 | 他在2026爆發重大惡劣被停止招生 |
| 00:06:28,000 | 00:06:30,000 | 一年重罰50萬之前 |
| 00:06:30,000 | 00:06:33,000 | 他被你們下架了多少筆的前科你知道嗎 |
| 00:06:33,000 | 00:06:35,000 | 你們可以回答嗎 |
| 00:06:35,000 | 00:06:39,000 | 剛剛委員所提的是大概 |
| 00:06:39,000 | 00:06:41,000 | 依我們的參考是16筆 |
| 00:06:41,000 | 00:06:42,000 | 但是 |
| 00:06:42,000 | 00:06:43,000 | 16筆嘛對 |
| 00:06:43,000 | 00:06:47,000 | 你把他的這個相關的下架前科16筆了 |
| 00:06:47,000 | 00:06:50,000 | 也就是包含了2018年的11月5筆 |
| 00:06:50,000 | 00:06:52,000 | 2018年12月6筆 |
| 00:06:52,000 | 00:06:55,000 | 2019年分別的裁罰還有3筆的這些罰金 |
| 00:06:55,000 | 00:06:56,000 | 他可以說是前科類 |
| 00:06:56,000 | 00:06:59,000 | 但是其實現在你們的網路上面 |
| 00:06:59,000 | 00:07:00,000 | 家長是不知道 |
| 00:07:00,000 | 00:07:02,000 | 沒有辦法去你們的網站上面找到 |
| 00:07:02,000 | 00:07:04,000 | 那家長要如何知道自己 |
| 00:07:04,000 | 00:07:09,000 | 送到的這間這個育幼中心是有沒有問題的 |
| 00:07:09,000 | 00:07:11,000 | 所以如果教育部覺得 |
| 00:07:11,000 | 00:07:13,000 | 不是不當對待的前科可以下架 |
| 00:07:13,000 | 00:07:15,000 | 那我們再來看看下一個案子好不好 |
| 00:07:15,000 | 00:07:16,000 | 下一個案子呢 |
| 00:07:16,000 | 00:07:20,000 | 上一次高雄重大惡劣也是一個謝姓負責人 |
| 00:07:20,000 | 00:07:22,000 | 一樣在2024年的時候 |
| 00:07:22,000 | 00:07:25,000 | 經濟部自來水股份有限公司的第七區的 |
| 00:07:25,000 | 00:07:28,000 | 管理處的職場就有兩筆不當對待 |
| 00:07:28,000 | 00:07:31,000 | 那他結果資料也被下架之後 |
| 00:07:31,000 | 00:07:35,000 | 他到了2026年就爆發了重大惡劣 |
| 00:07:35,000 | 00:07:40,000 | 台南人人森林2023年的時候 |
| 00:07:40,000 | 00:07:43,000 | 虐待型前科2024年的10月份 |
| 00:07:43,000 | 00:07:46,000 | 開始到2025年也陸續被罰了13萬 |
| 00:07:46,000 | 00:07:49,000 | 高雄的嘉興幼兒園2024年的時候 |
| 00:07:49,000 | 00:07:53,000 | 下架不當對待2025年再被罰12萬 |
| 00:07:53,000 | 00:07:57,000 | 所以在台南高雄屏東的這些縣市 |
| 00:07:57,000 | 00:08:01,000 | 至少有7家元所8筆虐童的前科 |
| 00:08:01,000 | 00:08:05,000 | 被下架後又爆發出20筆的虐童財閥 |
| 00:08:05,000 | 00:08:07,000 | 所以部長署長我想請教 |
| 00:08:07,000 | 00:08:09,000 | 這樣子你們覺得這樣子的規定 |
| 00:08:09,000 | 00:08:13,000 | 這樣子的下架有辦法達到你心目中的導正效果呢 |
| 00:08:13,000 | 00:08:16,000 | 對像這些下架的這個實現 |
| 00:08:16,000 | 00:08:19,000 | 配以他原來的範型 |
| 00:08:19,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 這一些在最近的一次修法檢討中 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:24,000 | 都列為包含甚至跨部會 |
| 00:08:24,000 | 00:08:26,000 | 以及跟地方政府一起來做檢視 |
| 00:08:26,000 | 00:08:29,000 | 謝謝委員剛好我們也是列入檢討了 |
| 00:08:29,000 | 00:08:31,000 | 部長署長所以今天討論的 |
| 00:08:31,000 | 00:08:34,000 | 我要講的事情是這個中央則無旁貸 |
| 00:08:34,000 | 00:08:37,000 | 這根本是制度的問題導致系統性的錯誤 |
| 00:08:37,000 | 00:08:40,000 | 所以這一些他已經累犯前科 |
| 00:08:40,000 | 00:08:43,000 | 你們有辦法在第一個家長不知道 |
| 00:08:43,000 | 00:08:46,000 | 然後第二個家長不知道的情況之下 |
| 00:08:46,000 | 00:08:49,000 | 那你們去怎麼去督導這些累犯的 |
| 00:08:49,000 | 00:08:52,000 | 你怎麼樣進場去改善這些累犯的問題 |
| 00:08:52,000 | 00:08:54,000 | 所以你們能不能在一個月內盤查出 |
| 00:08:54,000 | 00:08:57,000 | 到底有多少間在被裁罰過後下架公告 |
| 00:08:57,000 | 00:09:01,000 | 其後再犯的到底有哪些的清單給本席辦公室 |
| 00:09:01,000 | 00:09:03,000 | 可以嗎 可以 |
| 00:09:03,000 | 00:09:05,000 | 好 署長答應了喔 |
| 00:09:05,000 | 00:09:07,000 | 那部長這裡有沒有要不要去追蹤一下 |
| 00:09:07,000 | 00:09:08,000 | 你們兩邊的系統 |
| 00:09:08,000 | 00:09:09,000 | 我們沒有下架的問題 |
| 00:09:09,000 | 00:09:10,000 | 我們上去就是上去 |
| 00:09:10,000 | 00:09:11,000 | 但是你是跟著他 |
| 00:09:11,000 | 00:09:13,000 | 所以他下架了你的系統也會跟著更新 |
| 00:09:13,000 | 00:09:17,000 | 因為我們是把我們的記錄通通會給教育部 |
| 00:09:17,000 | 00:09:19,000 | 我跟你說你們系統就是有這個問題 |
| 00:09:19,000 | 00:09:22,000 | 我們同仁已經上網去查過了 |
| 00:09:22,000 | 00:09:23,000 | 我剛剛也講過為什麼 |
| 00:09:23,000 | 00:09:25,000 | 因為他們教育部這邊下架了之後 |
| 00:09:25,000 | 00:09:28,000 | 你這邊可能是用API或是什麼資訊連動 |
| 00:09:28,000 | 00:09:29,000 | 你可能跟著下架了 |
| 00:09:29,000 | 00:09:31,000 | 你連結的所以你就跟著下架了嘛 |
| 00:09:31,000 | 00:09:33,000 | 所以你也是一樣你根本搞不清楚說 |
| 00:09:33,000 | 00:09:36,000 | 為什麼他會斷鏈的這個資訊斷鏈了嘛 |
| 00:09:36,000 | 00:09:39,000 | 所以到底有哪一些有再犯喔 |
| 00:09:39,000 | 00:09:42,000 | 那針對這些累犯你們有沒有加重懲罰 |
| 00:09:42,000 | 00:09:43,000 | 或者公布的機制 |
| 00:09:43,000 | 00:09:46,000 | 如果都沒有這不就是導致系統性的問題 |
| 00:09:46,000 | 00:09:50,000 | 成為違規者的庇護所而虐的溫床的問題嗎 |
| 00:09:50,000 | 00:09:51,000 | 是不是 |
| 00:09:51,000 | 00:09:53,000 | 你們這些累犯的因為你覺得輕 |
| 00:09:53,000 | 00:09:54,000 | 所以你下了 |
| 00:09:54,000 | 00:09:57,000 | 你又沒有針對累犯的去嚴格的控管 |
| 00:09:57,000 | 00:09:58,000 | 是不是這樣 |
| 00:09:58,000 | 00:10:00,000 | 我跟你說喔部長 |
| 00:10:00,000 | 00:10:04,000 | 我們的罰則裡面就有累犯的去 |
| 00:10:04,000 | 00:10:06,000 | 那你們到底有沒有去好好的去 |
| 00:10:06,000 | 00:10:08,000 | 就是他是一個範圍嘛 |
| 00:10:08,000 | 00:10:10,000 | 可是問題是你資料還是下架了嘛 |
| 00:10:10,000 | 00:10:12,000 | 所以我要告訴你為什麼你們下架的 |
| 00:10:12,000 | 00:10:13,000 | 藏匿起來的資料 |
| 00:10:13,000 | 00:10:15,000 | 我們是怎麼盤點出來你知道嗎 |
| 00:10:15,000 | 00:10:18,000 | 我們是從民間的資料庫去查的啊 |
| 00:10:18,000 | 00:10:21,000 | 你政府的資料庫你自己沒有辦法給民間 |
| 00:10:21,000 | 00:10:23,000 | 有這樣的信賴信任 |
| 00:10:23,000 | 00:10:26,000 | 是民間的網站自己譬如說幼兒童 |
| 00:10:26,000 | 00:10:27,000 | 幼兒園資料站 |
| 00:10:27,000 | 00:10:29,000 | 還有自主的備份資料庫 |
| 00:10:29,000 | 00:10:33,000 | 也就是說民間自己把教育部 |
| 00:10:33,000 | 00:10:35,000 | 本來說可能要下架的資料 |
| 00:10:35,000 | 00:10:37,000 | 他都簽自己備份起來 |
| 00:10:37,000 | 00:10:40,000 | 所以他在他網站上會呈現出完整的記錄 |
| 00:10:40,000 | 00:10:42,000 | 沒有所謂下架的問題 |
| 00:10:42,000 | 00:10:44,000 | 所以這一些被下架的資料 |
| 00:10:44,000 | 00:10:46,000 | 都通通散落在這些民間的網站 |
| 00:10:46,000 | 00:10:48,000 | 而且其實對於家長來講 |
| 00:10:48,000 | 00:10:51,000 | 他必須要花很大的力氣才查得到 |
| 00:10:51,000 | 00:10:52,000 | 所以剛剛看到了 |
| 00:10:52,000 | 00:10:54,000 | 我剛剛說的下架之後 |
| 00:10:54,000 | 00:10:56,000 | 累犯然後爆發重大而虐 |
| 00:10:56,000 | 00:10:59,000 | 其實現在就是說你們的所謂的 |
| 00:10:59,000 | 00:11:01,000 | 輔導改正方案是根本沒有用的 |
| 00:11:01,000 | 00:11:03,000 | 而且你們現在的這種機制 |
| 00:11:03,000 | 00:11:05,000 | 還讓你們的資料庫喪失公信力 |
| 00:11:05,000 | 00:11:09,000 | 那倘若之後就那個家長來就責說 |
| 00:11:09,000 | 00:11:10,000 | 明明人家就累犯 |
| 00:11:10,000 | 00:11:11,000 | 那我因為不知道 |
| 00:11:11,000 | 00:11:13,000 | 所以我去把小孩送到這裡 |
| 00:11:13,000 | 00:11:14,000 | 然後發生了而虐 |
| 00:11:14,000 | 00:11:15,000 | 那這樣算誰的 |
| 00:11:15,000 | 00:11:16,000 | 算誰的責任 |
| 00:11:16,000 | 00:11:17,000 | 是不是中央應該也有責任 |
| 00:11:17,000 | 00:11:19,000 | 所以最後的結果就是 |
| 00:11:19,000 | 00:11:21,000 | 你們每年花了兩百萬去做一個 |
| 00:11:21,000 | 00:11:24,000 | 三個月可能就會被裁罰下架的 |
| 00:11:24,000 | 00:11:25,000 | 沒有公信力的網站 |
| 00:11:25,000 | 00:11:27,000 | 然後你們自己的寬鬆的下架認定 |
| 00:11:27,000 | 00:11:29,000 | 反而成為了虐童的溫床 |
| 00:11:29,000 | 00:11:32,000 | 讓重大而虐的預警系統被閹割的做法 |
| 00:11:32,000 | 00:11:35,000 | 刪掉了可能家長看不到 |
| 00:11:35,000 | 00:11:36,000 | 然後也當做沒事 |
| 00:11:36,000 | 00:11:37,000 | 就是一種鴕鳥心態 |
| 00:11:37,000 | 00:11:40,000 | 更完全沒有起到輔導的效果 |
| 00:11:40,000 | 00:11:44,000 | 所以家長與其信你們的兩百萬一年的資料庫 |
| 00:11:44,000 | 00:11:46,000 | 更情願去查民間的資料庫 |
| 00:11:46,000 | 00:11:48,000 | 那請問你們建這個資料庫 |
| 00:11:48,000 | 00:11:49,000 | 還有它的意義存在嗎 |
| 00:11:51,000 | 00:11:52,000 | 所以部長署長 |
| 00:11:52,000 | 00:11:54,000 | 我覺得真正的輔導措施 |
| 00:11:54,000 | 00:11:55,000 | 不是下架記錄 |
| 00:11:55,000 | 00:11:57,000 | 是你的記錄要保留 |
| 00:11:57,000 | 00:12:00,000 | 然後由主管機關去輔導改正 |
| 00:12:00,000 | 00:12:02,000 | 尤其是你發現它頻繁的 |
| 00:12:02,000 | 00:12:04,000 | 就算是小錯也累犯了 |
| 00:12:04,000 | 00:12:06,000 | 好 你們的官方要來輔導 |
| 00:12:06,000 | 00:12:09,000 | 然後輔導完你才可以真正的去監控 |
| 00:12:09,000 | 00:12:11,000 | 它是不是在管理上有改進 |
| 00:12:11,000 | 00:12:14,000 | 這樣才有辦法確實的管考的效果 |
| 00:12:14,000 | 00:12:16,000 | 然後你們要盡責的去輔導改善 |
| 00:12:16,000 | 00:12:18,000 | 未來這些機關再犯 |
| 00:12:18,000 | 00:12:20,000 | 我們就可以監督問責 |
| 00:12:20,000 | 00:12:21,000 | 這才是健康的做法 |
| 00:12:21,000 | 00:12:25,000 | 不是你好像做了一個虛有其表的記錄資料庫 |
| 00:12:25,000 | 00:12:26,000 | 結果又下架了 |
| 00:12:26,000 | 00:12:30,000 | 然後可能家長不知道了就送去了 |
| 00:12:30,000 | 00:12:33,000 | 那最後又發生了重大而虐 |
| 00:12:33,000 | 00:12:35,000 | 這樣子的憾事我們不希望再看到 |
| 00:12:35,000 | 00:12:38,000 | 所以這個部分是不是請教育部 |
| 00:12:38,000 | 00:12:42,000 | 跟請衛福部在一個月內提出檢討報告 |
| 00:12:42,000 | 00:12:45,000 | 然後告訴本席主管機關重新認證的方案 |
| 00:12:45,000 | 00:12:47,000 | 然後你們兩個的資料庫 |
| 00:12:47,000 | 00:12:49,000 | 到底怎麼串接 |
| 00:12:49,000 | 00:12:51,000 | 衛福部你覺得是只要尊重教育部 |
| 00:12:51,000 | 00:12:53,000 | 他什麼時間下架你就跟著更新 |
| 00:12:53,000 | 00:12:57,000 | 還是你應該要盡責的把所有記錄都完整的統計好 |
| 00:12:57,000 | 00:13:02,000 | 這請你們兩個部會去檢討給本席好不好 |
| 00:13:02,000 | 00:13:04,000 | 好那這個謝謝署長 |
| 00:13:04,000 | 00:13:05,000 | 署長可以回座了 |
| 00:13:05,000 | 00:13:07,000 | 我接下來要再問部長 |
| 00:13:07,000 | 00:13:11,000 | 有關於現在的善忠或是安樂死的議題 |
| 00:13:11,000 | 00:13:13,000 | 今天剛好另外一個很重要議題 |
| 00:13:13,000 | 00:13:15,000 | 也就是社會很關心的安樂死這個議題 |
| 00:13:15,000 | 00:13:19,000 | 那在這個上面我們是尊重善忠和自主權 |
| 00:13:19,000 | 00:13:21,000 | 不過在另一方面我想要強調 |
| 00:13:21,000 | 00:13:23,000 | 要補強另一方面的社會議題 |
| 00:13:23,000 | 00:13:25,000 | 所以我想要先請教部長 |
| 00:13:25,000 | 00:13:29,000 | 現在政府能不能夠充分的界定這個善忠的選擇 |
| 00:13:29,000 | 00:13:33,000 | 他究竟是基於想要解脫痛苦 |
| 00:13:33,000 | 00:13:38,000 | 還是因為他們失去了自主尊嚴跟社會的支持 |
| 00:13:38,000 | 00:13:42,000 | 然後在我們社會支持社會福利不夠完善的狀況之下 |
| 00:13:42,000 | 00:13:44,000 | 讓某些人寧可選擇安樂死 |
| 00:13:45,000 | 00:13:49,000 | 我非常認同這個委員所提到的這些觀點 |
| 00:13:49,000 | 00:13:52,000 | 所以在推動這個安樂死的時候 |
| 00:13:52,000 | 00:13:55,000 | 確實您所提到的這個社會的支持也好 |
| 00:13:55,000 | 00:13:57,000 | 或者是經濟的壓力也好 |
| 00:13:57,000 | 00:14:00,000 | 這些都需要併同去考量進來的 |
| 00:14:00,000 | 00:14:03,000 | 所以部長國際官方的資料 |
| 00:14:03,000 | 00:14:05,000 | 所以等一下我想要先問你們 |
| 00:14:05,000 | 00:14:06,000 | 現在你認同我的觀點 |
| 00:14:06,000 | 00:14:08,000 | 但是你有辦法真的是區分說 |
| 00:14:08,000 | 00:14:11,000 | 他到底是想要基於解脫痛苦 |
| 00:14:11,000 | 00:14:15,000 | 還是他們真的是因為失去了社會的支持相關的配套 |
| 00:14:15,000 | 00:14:17,000 | 所以他不得不去選擇安樂死 |
| 00:14:17,000 | 00:14:20,000 | 所以從其他國家的施行的經驗 |
| 00:14:20,000 | 00:14:22,000 | 確實這個是最困難的地方 |
| 00:14:22,000 | 00:14:25,000 | 也是他引發最多爭議的地方 |
| 00:14:25,000 | 00:14:28,000 | 又什麼很多國家像英國討論了這麼久 |
| 00:14:28,000 | 00:14:29,000 | 還是無法完成立法 |
| 00:14:29,000 | 00:14:31,000 | 所以我今天就是要告訴你 |
| 00:14:31,000 | 00:14:33,000 | 從這個角度我們很關切的 |
| 00:14:33,000 | 00:14:36,000 | 國際的官方資料顯示求助死亡的原因 |
| 00:14:36,000 | 00:14:37,000 | 常常不是單一疼痛 |
| 00:14:37,000 | 00:14:39,000 | 而是失去自主 |
| 00:14:39,000 | 00:14:40,000 | 失去尊嚴 |
| 00:14:40,000 | 00:14:42,000 | 失去有意義的生活 |
| 00:14:42,000 | 00:14:43,000 | 甚至出現孤立 |
| 00:14:43,000 | 00:14:45,000 | 然後認為自己成為負擔的感受 |
| 00:14:45,000 | 00:14:48,000 | 所以美國全國性的調查研究 |
| 00:14:48,000 | 00:14:51,000 | 也彙整指出成人身心障礙者 |
| 00:14:51,000 | 00:14:55,000 | 回報自殺想法的機率為非障礙者的兩到三倍 |
| 00:14:55,000 | 00:14:58,000 | 那自殺計畫的還是二到四倍 |
| 00:14:58,000 | 00:15:01,000 | 自殺企圖的約兩到三倍 |
| 00:15:01,000 | 00:15:02,000 | 然後另外一個研究 |
| 00:15:02,000 | 00:15:03,000 | 他也顯示 |
| 00:15:03,000 | 00:15:06,000 | 障礙跟自殺念頭計畫跟企圖 |
| 00:15:06,000 | 00:15:08,000 | 都有顯著的關聯 |
| 00:15:08,000 | 00:15:12,000 | 那WHO也指出身心障礙者面臨更高的憂鬱 |
| 00:15:12,000 | 00:15:15,000 | 跟健康不平等的風險 |
| 00:15:15,000 | 00:15:16,000 | 那這些研究的結果 |
| 00:15:16,000 | 00:15:17,000 | 用白話文來說就是 |
| 00:15:17,000 | 00:15:20,000 | 如果一個人不是因為病痛本身不可承受 |
| 00:15:20,000 | 00:15:22,000 | 而是因為在家裡生活活不下去 |
| 00:15:22,000 | 00:15:24,000 | 出門找不到人協助 |
| 00:15:24,000 | 00:15:26,000 | 那照顧者撐不住 |
| 00:15:26,000 | 00:15:29,000 | 那只能住機構或者成為家人的長期負擔 |
| 00:15:29,000 | 00:15:31,000 | 這就不只是個人選擇 |
| 00:15:31,000 | 00:15:34,000 | 而是作為一個人的基本人權 |
| 00:15:34,000 | 00:15:36,000 | 所以我們都被法令被制度 |
| 00:15:36,000 | 00:15:38,000 | 被社會的環境因素被障礙了 |
| 00:15:38,000 | 00:15:40,000 | 這個我們之前討論申權法 |
| 00:15:40,000 | 00:15:43,000 | 所以部長你認同我這個觀點和研究嗎 |
| 00:15:43,000 | 00:15:44,000 | 我非常認同 |
| 00:15:44,000 | 00:15:47,000 | 這個是很深度的討論了啦 |
| 00:15:47,000 | 00:15:49,000 | 所以從我們國內的自己的資料 |
| 00:15:49,000 | 00:15:51,000 | 從我們的自殺原因的調查 |
| 00:15:51,000 | 00:15:53,000 | 這些自殺企圖的原因調查 |
| 00:15:53,000 | 00:15:54,000 | 也可以發現到 |
| 00:15:54,000 | 00:15:56,000 | 那麼在高齡 |
| 00:15:56,000 | 00:15:58,000 | 特別是在高齡者疾病因素 |
| 00:15:58,000 | 00:16:00,000 | 跟憂鬱情緒 |
| 00:16:00,000 | 00:16:02,000 | 那麼精神的問題 |
| 00:16:02,000 | 00:16:07,000 | 這個是造成他自殺意念的一個因素之一 |
| 00:16:07,000 | 00:16:12,000 | 那如果是在中壯年的時期 |
| 00:16:12,000 | 00:16:14,000 | 那麼他的家庭經濟 |
| 00:16:14,000 | 00:16:16,000 | 所以部長我知道 |
| 00:16:16,000 | 00:16:17,000 | 所以我想要給你看一下 |
| 00:16:17,000 | 00:16:18,000 | 這個影片可以播嗎 |
| 00:16:21,000 | 00:16:22,000 | 相關政策 |
| 00:16:22,000 | 00:16:25,000 | 更是政府迫切要面對的問題 |
| 00:16:25,000 | 00:16:29,000 | 那日本的他們的這一陣火勢 |
| 00:16:29,000 | 00:16:33,000 | 是很早就已經發展出一套系統了 |
| 00:16:33,000 | 00:16:38,000 | 他們也不只有政府政策上面的資源 |
| 00:16:38,000 | 00:16:44,000 | 也有他們上門的這些經營的記憶上的支持 |
| 00:16:44,000 | 00:16:47,000 | 對他們還有辦法 |
| 00:16:47,000 | 00:16:51,000 | 還有辦法有一個身上助理 |
| 00:16:51,000 | 00:16:55,000 | 可以二十四小時協助你過正過晚 |
| 00:16:55,000 | 00:17:01,000 | 那如果台灣有我們可以有這樣子的制度的話 |
| 00:17:01,000 | 00:17:04,000 | 那當然我也可以不用選擇這樣子 |
| 00:17:04,000 | 00:17:07,000 | 對所以這個議題就是這樣 |
| 00:17:07,000 | 00:17:10,000 | 他後來可能去選擇了安樂死 |
| 00:17:10,000 | 00:17:13,000 | 那就是因為我們這個就是一個活生生的案例 |
| 00:17:13,000 | 00:17:15,000 | 就是因為我們社會沒有辦法支持 |
| 00:17:15,000 | 00:17:17,000 | 我們現在討論生存法這個 |
| 00:17:17,000 | 00:17:19,000 | 所謂的個人協助制度 |
| 00:17:19,000 | 00:17:22,000 | 對不對就有高度的相關 |
| 00:17:22,000 | 00:17:25,000 | 所以有各處的協助可以讓許多的障礙者 |
| 00:17:25,000 | 00:17:28,000 | 尤其是重度的障礙者 |
| 00:17:28,000 | 00:17:30,000 | 可以活得有尊嚴 |
| 00:17:30,000 | 00:17:34,000 | 而且要補這個填補長照不足的地方 |
| 00:17:34,000 | 00:17:37,000 | 所以衛福部在二零二二年提交立法院的報告 |
| 00:17:37,000 | 00:17:39,000 | 也指出二零一八年 |
| 00:17:39,000 | 00:17:42,000 | 至二零二一年的個人助理使用人數 |
| 00:17:42,000 | 00:17:46,000 | 只有從五百三十二人增加到八百人 |
| 00:17:46,000 | 00:17:48,000 | 二零二二年的上半年為七百五十人 |
| 00:17:48,000 | 00:17:50,000 | 那現在大概是一千三百人 |
| 00:17:50,000 | 00:17:53,000 | 相較於台灣有身心障礙證明 |
| 00:17:53,000 | 00:17:56,000 | 和重度障礙的這些需求的量能 |
| 00:17:56,000 | 00:17:58,000 | 顯得非常的有限 |
| 00:17:58,000 | 00:18:01,000 | 所以我想要問部長接下來對個人助理的規劃 |
| 00:18:01,000 | 00:18:03,000 | 也就是申權法保障的內容 |
| 00:18:03,000 | 00:18:05,000 | 你們預計要編列多少經費 |
| 00:18:05,000 | 00:18:08,000 | 你們要如何保障這種被制度逼死的問題 |
| 00:18:08,000 | 00:18:10,000 | 不要再發生 |
| 00:18:10,000 | 00:18:12,000 | 因為如果也是安樂死 |
| 00:18:12,000 | 00:18:16,000 | 未來如果通過之後很可能我們需要面對的問題 |
| 00:18:16,000 | 00:18:19,000 | 跟委員說明其實我們也在努力的推動 |
| 00:18:19,000 | 00:18:23,000 | 個人助理特別是自立生活的支持 |
| 00:18:23,000 | 00:18:26,000 | 其實預算也從一百一十年的八千多萬 |
| 00:18:26,000 | 00:18:30,000 | 到一百一十五年已經到突破四億了 |
| 00:18:30,000 | 00:18:33,000 | 所以我們也是努力的再增加這些協助 |
| 00:18:33,000 | 00:18:37,000 | 但是這些障礙者他們並不覺得真的被支持到 |
| 00:18:37,000 | 00:18:39,000 | 所以這些障礙團體都是大聲來幾乎 |
| 00:18:39,000 | 00:18:43,000 | 不管是入法、專章或者是專法 |
| 00:18:43,000 | 00:18:45,000 | 或者是你的訓練人數 |
| 00:18:45,000 | 00:18:47,000 | 然後你的經費到底足不足夠 |
| 00:18:47,000 | 00:18:53,000 | 所以我想要說對於個人助理的培訓加強 |
| 00:18:53,000 | 00:18:55,000 | 甚至他們的待遇 |
| 00:18:55,000 | 00:18:57,000 | 還有未來的人力安排經費編列 |
| 00:18:57,000 | 00:19:00,000 | 你們是不是可以再繼續擴大支持 |
| 00:19:00,000 | 00:19:05,000 | 會 我們現在也在調高相關的費用的部分 |
| 00:19:05,000 | 00:19:06,000 | 給他調高 |
| 00:19:06,000 | 00:19:08,000 | 因為人力還是一個瓶頸 |
| 00:19:08,000 | 00:19:09,000 | 沒錯 |
| 00:19:09,000 | 00:19:12,000 | 就是這些個人助理的人力是一個問題 |
| 00:19:12,000 | 00:19:16,000 | 所以我們需要去調高他的支付 |
| 00:19:16,000 | 00:19:18,000 | 讓他有這個 |
| 00:19:18,000 | 00:19:21,000 | 我們希望除了預算相關的配套支持之外 |
| 00:19:21,000 | 00:19:23,000 | 真的需要更加重視入法 |
| 00:19:23,000 | 00:19:25,000 | 然後在制度的設計上相關的執法 |
| 00:19:25,000 | 00:19:27,000 | 我們也會逐步的去強化他 |
| 00:19:27,000 | 00:19:29,000 | 部長我想要講的很簡單 |
| 00:19:29,000 | 00:19:32,000 | 其實只要看得出來是支持不夠 |
| 00:19:32,000 | 00:19:34,000 | 福利不足照顧出問題的地方 |
| 00:19:34,000 | 00:19:39,000 | 這些都會影響重政者想不想活下去 |
| 00:19:39,000 | 00:19:42,000 | 所以國家能不能把每一個想死的個案 |
| 00:19:42,000 | 00:19:45,000 | 如果國家是不能夠把每一個想死的個案 |
| 00:19:45,000 | 00:19:47,000 | 都推給他天生就是這樣 |
| 00:19:47,000 | 00:19:49,000 | 或是這是醫療問題等等 |
| 00:19:49,000 | 00:19:52,000 | 國家存在的目的就是希望保障每個人 |
| 00:19:52,000 | 00:19:54,000 | 每個需要的人都有尊嚴的生存權 |
| 00:19:54,000 | 00:19:56,000 | 還有更好的生活 |
| 00:19:56,000 | 00:19:59,000 | 所以國家有義務先把這個基本的生活條件補起來 |
| 00:19:59,000 | 00:20:01,000 | 你應該趕快的把這塊補起來 |
| 00:20:01,000 | 00:20:03,000 | 不然我們看到很多重度障礙者 |
| 00:20:03,000 | 00:20:07,000 | 他晚上半夜三更想要吃個香蕉都很困難 |
| 00:20:07,000 | 00:20:10,000 | 這個是日本有一個相關的影片 |
| 00:20:10,000 | 00:20:12,000 | 請部長回去可以好好體會一下 |
| 00:20:12,000 | 00:20:16,000 | 我真的覺得這是需要大家共同有同理心的 |
| 00:20:16,000 | 00:20:18,000 | 最後不好意思主席 |
| 00:20:18,000 | 00:20:19,000 | 真的兩件事也滿重要 |
| 00:20:19,000 | 00:20:21,000 | 但是我會很簡短的請部長回答 |
| 00:20:21,000 | 00:20:25,000 | 其實這次包含剛剛討論的所謂的食安的專家會議 |
| 00:20:25,000 | 00:20:27,000 | 其實也有相關的報導 |
| 00:20:27,000 | 00:20:29,000 | 包含之前這個 |
| 00:20:29,000 | 00:20:31,000 | 我想要請問一下你們這個專家會議 |
| 00:20:31,000 | 00:20:35,000 | 你們的相關紀錄相關的錄音檔你們會保存多久 |
| 00:20:36,000 | 00:20:40,000 | 剛剛我已經在回覆王玉明委員這邊 |
| 00:20:40,000 | 00:20:44,000 | 那麼我們會把這些資料一送給剪掉 |
| 00:20:44,000 | 00:20:45,000 | 所以不會銷毀 |
| 00:20:45,000 | 00:20:46,000 | 你要確定喔 |
| 00:20:46,000 | 00:20:51,000 | 因為過去在這個疫苗的相關的專家會議的時候 |
| 00:20:51,000 | 00:20:53,000 | 疫苗受害者專家會議的時候 |
| 00:20:53,000 | 00:20:56,000 | 你們的會議紀錄說一個月就會把它銷毀 |
| 00:20:56,000 | 00:20:58,000 | 錄音檔就會銷毀 |
| 00:20:58,000 | 00:21:02,000 | 可是導致後來根本就沒有辦法去在法院有相關的證據 |
| 00:21:02,000 | 00:21:05,000 | 你要在這裡根本保證 |
| 00:21:05,000 | 00:21:09,000 | 你的所有相關的錄音檔都完整的保存 |
| 00:21:09,000 | 00:21:12,000 | 我們現在就把這些資料一送給剪掉 |
| 00:21:12,000 | 00:21:14,000 | 就會一送給剪掉去處理 |
| 00:21:14,000 | 00:21:15,000 | 所以不會銷毀 |
| 00:21:15,000 | 00:21:18,000 | 這個證物就變成是證物了 |
| 00:21:18,000 | 00:21:20,000 | 這第一件事情我要提醒你的 |
| 00:21:20,000 | 00:21:23,000 | 第二件事情是8月8號快要到了 |
| 00:21:23,000 | 00:21:25,000 | 我想請教一下部長 |
| 00:21:25,000 | 00:21:30,000 | 我過去長期倡議多次質詢有關於社會互現公費挨塞的部分 |
| 00:21:30,000 | 00:21:32,000 | 請問現在的狀況如何 |
| 00:21:32,000 | 00:21:36,000 | 可不可以告訴本席可以在8月8號的時候 |
| 00:21:36,000 | 00:21:40,000 | 給這些男性們父親節一個禮物 |
| 00:21:40,000 | 00:21:42,000 | 因為我昨天才參加了一個 |
| 00:21:42,000 | 00:21:44,000 | 也是因為社會互現來太晚發現 |
| 00:21:44,000 | 00:21:48,000 | 所以轉移到這個各個器官的一個告別式 |
| 00:21:48,000 | 00:21:51,000 | 我認為這是現在很嚴重的問題 |
| 00:21:51,000 | 00:21:53,000 | 那部長你當初也跟我說過 |
| 00:21:53,000 | 00:21:54,000 | 現在的技術做得到 |
| 00:21:54,000 | 00:21:55,000 | 可以更精準 |
| 00:21:55,000 | 00:21:56,000 | 偽陽性更低 |
| 00:21:56,000 | 00:21:59,000 | 好你有跟本席說過 |
| 00:21:59,000 | 00:22:02,000 | 你可不可以在這裡給本席一個答覆 |
| 00:22:02,000 | 00:22:04,000 | 好這個關於社會互現來 |
| 00:22:04,000 | 00:22:07,000 | 其實我的風險比委員高 |
| 00:22:07,000 | 00:22:10,000 | 所以我很關切這個議題 |
| 00:22:10,000 | 00:22:13,000 | 所以我是特別要幫你爭取 |
| 00:22:13,000 | 00:22:17,000 | 是謝謝委員對我健康的關心 |
| 00:22:17,000 | 00:22:21,000 | 那麼我們已經委託國會院做了一個完整的評估 |
| 00:22:21,000 | 00:22:24,000 | 所以這個社會互現來 |
| 00:22:24,000 | 00:22:29,000 | 現在已經是我們在癌症的十大死因裡面 |
| 00:22:29,000 | 00:22:33,000 | 十大的癌別裡面其實已經到第五位了 |
| 00:22:33,000 | 00:22:39,000 | 然後隨著高凝化它的發生率也是在上升 |
| 00:22:39,000 | 00:22:46,000 | 所以我們會在年底之前提出一個國家的計畫 |
| 00:22:46,000 | 00:22:48,000 | 不是啊部長你不要搞到年底啦 |
| 00:22:48,000 | 00:22:49,000 | 8月8號快到了父親節 |
| 00:22:49,000 | 00:22:51,000 | 你趕快在這裡承諾一下大家吧 |
| 00:22:51,000 | 00:22:54,000 | 不是委員這個要搭配預算的啦 |
| 00:22:54,000 | 00:22:56,000 | 不是我說了馬上就可以做 |
| 00:22:56,000 | 00:22:58,000 | 所以它要有一個完整的規劃 |
| 00:22:58,000 | 00:23:00,000 | 你如果已經有這個預算了 |
| 00:23:00,000 | 00:23:01,000 | 你只是預算的話 |
| 00:23:01,000 | 00:23:02,000 | 那你就編嘛 |
| 00:23:02,000 | 00:23:03,000 | 明年就可以開始做啦 |
| 00:23:03,000 | 00:23:05,000 | 我們希望明年來推動 |
| 00:23:05,000 | 00:23:06,000 | 希望明年所以你會做 |
| 00:23:06,000 | 00:23:08,000 | 會會會做謝謝 |
| 00:23:08,000 | 00:23:10,000 | 請大家把這個記錄 |
| 00:23:10,000 | 00:23:12,000 | 不要說往這個方向 |
| 00:23:12,000 | 00:23:13,000 | 你會做還是不會做 |
| 00:23:13,000 | 00:23:15,000 | 我們現在正在規劃中了 |
| 00:23:15,000 | 00:23:16,000 | 正在規劃中所以會做 |
| 00:23:16,000 | 00:23:17,000 | 那你可不可以不要 |
| 00:23:17,000 | 00:23:18,000 | 你已經都說會做 |
| 00:23:18,000 | 00:23:20,000 | 8月8號送給大家父親節 |
| 00:23:20,000 | 00:23:22,000 | 男性一個父親節大禮 |
| 00:23:22,000 | 00:23:24,000 | 這個沒有幾天的時間我覺得 |
| 00:23:24,000 | 00:23:25,000 | 太草率了 |
| 00:23:25,000 | 00:23:26,000 | 沒有你剛剛想弄的時候會做 |
| 00:23:26,000 | 00:23:27,000 | 我覺得就是一個 |
| 00:23:27,000 | 00:23:29,000 | 要嚴謹的規劃 |
| 00:23:29,000 | 00:23:31,000 | 所以現在的問題都沒了嘛 |
| 00:23:31,000 | 00:23:32,000 | 就是預算嘛 |
| 00:23:32,000 | 00:23:34,000 | 那其實過去有很多女性的癌篩 |
| 00:23:34,000 | 00:23:36,000 | 也都有這個預算的支持 |
| 00:23:36,000 | 00:23:38,000 | 我想這個社會腺癌已經賣到前五名了 |
| 00:23:38,000 | 00:23:41,000 | 我想這個社會腺癌的篩檢 |
| 00:23:41,000 | 00:23:44,000 | 那麼它有包含對象 |
| 00:23:44,000 | 00:23:46,000 | 還有篩檢的方式 |
| 00:23:46,000 | 00:23:47,000 | 還有它的proco code |
| 00:23:47,000 | 00:23:49,000 | 跟後面如何解釋 |
| 00:23:49,000 | 00:23:51,000 | 這個細節我們其實可以好好的 |
| 00:23:51,000 | 00:23:53,000 | 再來檢討討論 |
| 00:23:53,000 | 00:23:55,000 | 但是我本席就是要你一個承諾 |
| 00:23:55,000 | 00:23:57,000 | 因為我們已經推了好久了 |
| 00:23:57,000 | 00:23:59,000 | 那你張氏明明也承諾說 |
| 00:23:59,000 | 00:24:01,000 | 這個現在的技術也都做得到了 |
| 00:24:01,000 | 00:24:04,000 | 所以你不能把預算當作一個藉口 |
| 00:24:04,000 | 00:24:05,000 | 我想這個 |
| 00:24:05,000 | 00:24:07,000 | 這個預算一定要有啦 |
| 00:24:07,000 | 00:24:09,000 | 不然我們這個就分空口 |
| 00:24:09,000 | 00:24:10,000 | 所以你要做你就別預算了 |
| 00:24:10,000 | 00:24:12,000 | 我相信衛環委員會的所有的委員 |
| 00:24:12,000 | 00:24:15,000 | 這些很棒的委員們都會支持的好不好 |
| 00:24:15,000 | 00:24:17,000 | 好 謝謝委員的支持 |