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范雲 @ 第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:11,000 | 好,謝謝昭偉,有請次長林次長 |
| 00:00:11,000 | 00:00:14,000 | 好,有請衛福部林次長 |
| 00:00:21,000 | 00:00:22,000 | 委員早 |
| 00:00:22,000 | 00:00:23,000 | 次長早安 |
| 00:00:23,000 | 00:00:27,000 | 我看你們的報告中有講到就是 |
| 00:00:27,000 | 00:00:30,000 | 衛福部有協助消費者 |
| 00:00:30,000 | 00:00:33,000 | 這個大家新聞有看到,退貨之外 |
| 00:00:33,000 | 00:00:35,000 | 也有協助團體訴訟,是不是? |
| 00:00:35,000 | 00:00:38,000 | 是,我們之後會用食安基金這邊 |
| 00:00:38,000 | 00:00:41,000 | 食安基金本來就有協助消費者的團體訴訟 |
| 00:00:41,000 | 00:00:43,000 | 好,那為什麼特別問這個 |
| 00:00:43,000 | 00:00:46,000 | 因為今天早上這個有很多媒體問我說 |
| 00:00:46,000 | 00:00:50,000 | 政府會不會協助,就是團體訴訟,消費者訴訟 |
| 00:00:50,000 | 00:00:53,000 | 我說,欸,我們看到的是會啊 |
| 00:00:53,000 | 00:00:56,000 | 不過顯然就是媒體記者都不知道 |
| 00:00:56,000 | 00:00:59,000 | 然後這個等於是,衛福部是怎麼樣協助 |
| 00:00:59,000 | 00:01:01,000 | 主要就是經費的支持嗎 |
| 00:01:01,000 | 00:01:05,000 | 就是用食安基金來,等於是公費訴訟,是不是? |
| 00:01:05,000 | 00:01:08,000 | 委員,這個我們事實上是依照消費者保護法這邊 |
| 00:01:08,000 | 00:01:10,000 | 所以是消保處來啟動 |
| 00:01:10,000 | 00:01:12,000 | 然後我們食安基金這邊 |
| 00:01:12,000 | 00:01:14,000 | 因為食安基金過去就可以來相關給付 |
| 00:01:14,000 | 00:01:18,000 | 我們食安基金裡面可以對於補助消費者保護團體 |
| 00:01:18,000 | 00:01:21,000 | 由消費者保護團體依食安法 |
| 00:01:21,000 | 00:01:22,000 | 食品衛生安全事件 |
| 00:01:22,000 | 00:01:25,000 | 依消費者保護法的規定來提交相關訴訟 |
| 00:01:25,000 | 00:01:29,000 | 那我們這邊會補助,就是訴訟的律師報酬跟訴訟相關費用 |
| 00:01:29,000 | 00:01:32,000 | 是補助還是全額出,是可以明示嗎? |
| 00:01:32,000 | 00:01:36,000 | 我們是補助這個律師報酬跟訴訟相關的費用 |
| 00:01:36,000 | 00:01:37,000 | 由食安基金這邊 |
| 00:01:37,000 | 00:01:39,000 | 由食安基金這邊 |
| 00:01:39,000 | 00:01:43,000 | 對,所以它的啟動,這個訴訟的啟動是從這個消費者保護法 |
| 00:01:43,000 | 00:01:45,000 | 所以我們會從,我們這邊是消保處協助 |
| 00:01:45,000 | 00:01:48,000 | 好,那我想就是盡量能夠公費訴訟 |
| 00:01:48,000 | 00:01:50,000 | 就是說全額補助就盡可能 |
| 00:01:50,000 | 00:01:53,000 | 因為我想就是,政府為消費者 |
| 00:01:53,000 | 00:01:55,000 | 就是得回他的權利 |
| 00:01:55,000 | 00:01:57,000 | 因為他訴訟的對象應該是廠商嘛 |
| 00:01:57,000 | 00:01:58,000 | 對 |
| 00:01:58,000 | 00:02:00,000 | 對,那我想這是非常重要的事 |
| 00:02:00,000 | 00:02:02,000 | 也希望能夠讓社會大眾知道 |
| 00:02:02,000 | 00:02:04,000 | 我們再來包含,也跟我們補充 |
| 00:02:04,000 | 00:02:07,000 | 就包含之前保齡查試事件等等這一類的 |
| 00:02:07,000 | 00:02:10,000 | 那它事實上後來都會再進到 |
| 00:02:10,000 | 00:02:12,000 | 我們食安基金這邊審議 |
| 00:02:12,000 | 00:02:13,000 | 那這些案子進來之後 |
| 00:02:13,000 | 00:02:17,000 | 會在我們食安基金的運用管理監督小組裡面去做審議 |
| 00:02:17,000 | 00:02:18,000 | 好,謝謝 |
| 00:02:18,000 | 00:02:20,000 | 那我今天主要是針對 |
| 00:02:20,000 | 00:02:23,000 | 主要是針對這個食安法修法的草案 |
| 00:02:23,000 | 00:02:25,000 | 那想跟次長討論 |
| 00:02:25,000 | 00:02:28,000 | 那修法方向其實我們看你們的新聞稿 |
| 00:02:28,000 | 00:02:30,000 | 還有今天的報告中都有講 |
| 00:02:30,000 | 00:02:32,000 | 那會有源頭、製程 |
| 00:02:32,000 | 00:02:34,000 | 然後異常通報、品質管理 |
| 00:02:34,000 | 00:02:36,000 | 跟數位治理的部分 |
| 00:02:36,000 | 00:02:38,000 | 那我想回來談 |
| 00:02:38,000 | 00:02:41,000 | 就是我國的食安治理高度依賴 |
| 00:02:41,000 | 00:02:44,000 | 我說過去事後抽驗 |
| 00:02:44,000 | 00:02:47,000 | 那只要成品不合格,下架裁罰 |
| 00:02:47,000 | 00:02:49,000 | 那這一次中聯案顯示 |
| 00:02:49,000 | 00:02:52,000 | 其實這個前端的製程管理 |
| 00:02:52,000 | 00:02:54,000 | 就是出了問題 |
| 00:02:54,000 | 00:02:58,000 | 就如同我們就是衛福部給的報告一樣 |
| 00:02:58,000 | 00:03:00,000 | 那我想來看看就是說 |
| 00:03:00,000 | 00:03:02,000 | 這一次的修法 |
| 00:03:02,000 | 00:03:04,000 | 到底在製程的管理的部分 |
| 00:03:04,000 | 00:03:06,000 | 是不是能夠完整有效 |
| 00:03:06,000 | 00:03:09,000 | 我想這會是我們關心的重點 |
| 00:03:09,000 | 00:03:11,000 | 那很多人都有提到 |
| 00:03:11,000 | 00:03:15,000 | 日本的做法其實這個所謂的HACCP |
| 00:03:15,000 | 00:03:18,000 | 那它原則上是普及於所有的食品業者 |
| 00:03:18,000 | 00:03:21,000 | 它強調的是預防性的製程管理 |
| 00:03:21,000 | 00:03:23,000 | 那我們有查過 |
| 00:03:23,000 | 00:03:25,000 | 其實這一次 |
| 00:03:25,000 | 00:03:27,000 | 食用油脂工廠 |
| 00:03:27,000 | 00:03:30,000 | 也應該要符合HACCP |
| 00:03:30,000 | 00:03:32,000 | 就是台灣也有HACCP |
| 00:03:32,000 | 00:03:34,000 | 那可不可以請次長講一下 |
| 00:03:34,000 | 00:03:36,000 | 為什麼日本有HACCP |
| 00:03:36,000 | 00:03:38,000 | 可是流程管理 |
| 00:03:38,000 | 00:03:41,000 | 就能夠避免像這一次的這個隱匿 |
| 00:03:41,000 | 00:03:44,000 | 那可是台灣的HACCP |
| 00:03:44,000 | 00:03:45,000 | 那在執行上 |
| 00:03:45,000 | 00:03:47,000 | 還是沒有辦法像日本做到 |
| 00:03:47,000 | 00:03:48,000 | 因為日本我們看到 |
| 00:03:48,000 | 00:03:51,000 | 它不做最後的產品的抽驗 |
| 00:03:51,000 | 00:03:53,000 | 它做的是流程管理 |
| 00:03:53,000 | 00:03:55,000 | 那到底台灣跟日本的制度 |
| 00:03:55,000 | 00:03:56,000 | 是哪裡有差異 |
| 00:03:56,000 | 00:03:58,000 | 應該如何檢討精進呢 |
| 00:03:58,000 | 00:04:00,000 | 日本對這個油沒有訂標準 |
| 00:04:00,000 | 00:04:03,000 | 日本沒有訂本便皮標準 |
| 00:04:03,000 | 00:04:05,000 | 這個部分先跟委員補充 |
| 00:04:05,000 | 00:04:06,000 | 這個我們有看到 |
| 00:04:06,000 | 00:04:08,000 | 它是做流程管理 |
| 00:04:08,000 | 00:04:10,000 | 因為它的流程就不會出現超標 |
| 00:04:10,000 | 00:04:12,000 | 其實這次的本便皮 |
| 00:04:12,000 | 00:04:14,000 | 事實上就是它在HACCP裡面的 |
| 00:04:14,000 | 00:04:16,000 | 幾個管理的節點沒有處理好 |
| 00:04:16,000 | 00:04:19,000 | 那我們其實對於這一個中聯這邊 |
| 00:04:19,000 | 00:04:21,000 | 事實上我們也在食安法裡面 |
| 00:04:21,000 | 00:04:25,000 | 再包含過去我們這個111到114年 |
| 00:04:25,000 | 00:04:27,000 | 食藥署給地方政府 |
| 00:04:27,000 | 00:04:31,000 | 去地方對於食用油脂的檢查裡面 |
| 00:04:31,000 | 00:04:33,000 | 那個專案就是做HACCP |
| 00:04:33,000 | 00:04:34,000 | 好 那我暫停在這 |
| 00:04:34,000 | 00:04:36,000 | 所以你的意思是說 |
| 00:04:36,000 | 00:04:39,000 | 這一次中聯就是HACCP裡面的 |
| 00:04:39,000 | 00:04:41,000 | 一些節點沒有處理好 |
| 00:04:41,000 | 00:04:43,000 | 那我們訂了HACCP |
| 00:04:43,000 | 00:04:45,000 | 可是我們沒有處理好 |
| 00:04:45,000 | 00:04:47,000 | 可是我們為什麼沒有辦法 |
| 00:04:47,000 | 00:04:50,000 | 管控到它那個節點沒有處理好 |
| 00:04:50,000 | 00:04:53,000 | 因為如果日本做的是流程管理 |
| 00:04:53,000 | 00:04:56,000 | 就不是只有一套HACCP嗎 |
| 00:04:56,000 | 00:04:58,000 | HACCP就是整個流程的管理 |
| 00:04:58,000 | 00:05:00,000 | 那相關的業者 |
| 00:05:00,000 | 00:05:03,000 | 他對於他自己的HACCP內部 |
| 00:05:03,000 | 00:05:05,000 | 要針對不論是從原料端 |
| 00:05:05,000 | 00:05:07,000 | 還有它中間的製程的每一個 |
| 00:05:07,000 | 00:05:09,000 | 中間的重要節點 |
| 00:05:09,000 | 00:05:10,000 | 他要去做重要的調整 |
| 00:05:10,000 | 00:05:12,000 | 他要去管控它的品質 |
| 00:05:12,000 | 00:05:13,000 | 確保它的品質 |
| 00:05:13,000 | 00:05:15,000 | 每一次出來的品質都能夠符合標準 |
| 00:05:15,000 | 00:05:17,000 | 好 那這部分我還是不了解 |
| 00:05:17,000 | 00:05:18,000 | 那日本的管法 |
| 00:05:18,000 | 00:05:20,000 | 跟我們的管法哪裡不同 |
| 00:05:20,000 | 00:05:23,000 | 為什麼它的HACCP可以確定 |
| 00:05:23,000 | 00:05:25,000 | 就是中間的流程 |
| 00:05:25,000 | 00:05:28,000 | 就是說不會出問題被隱匿 |
| 00:05:28,000 | 00:05:30,000 | 可是我們台灣的卻會呢 |
| 00:05:30,000 | 00:05:32,000 | HACCP它的那個 |
| 00:05:32,000 | 00:05:33,000 | 就是這是一個當然 |
| 00:05:33,000 | 00:05:36,000 | 不同的這一個食品的相關的管理 |
| 00:05:36,000 | 00:05:38,000 | 它都要符合他們那一個 |
| 00:05:38,000 | 00:05:40,000 | 那一種產品的HACCP |
| 00:05:40,000 | 00:05:42,000 | 比方說我今天做油脂 |
| 00:05:42,000 | 00:05:43,000 | 對 我對我的油脂 |
| 00:05:43,000 | 00:05:44,000 | 大豆油油脂 |
| 00:05:44,000 | 00:05:47,000 | 我的製程有一個HACCP的管控監測計畫 |
| 00:05:47,000 | 00:05:48,000 | 它要去寫 |
| 00:05:48,000 | 00:05:50,000 | 去做節點上的處理跟控制 |
| 00:05:50,000 | 00:05:52,000 | 那我們在食藥署這邊 |
| 00:05:52,000 | 00:05:53,000 | 請地方政府去做的 |
| 00:05:53,000 | 00:05:56,000 | 也是這個HACCP相關的節點的確保 |
| 00:05:56,000 | 00:05:59,000 | 它的 它是不是符合我們對HACCP裡面 |
| 00:05:59,000 | 00:06:00,000 | 你某些節點 |
| 00:06:00,000 | 00:06:02,000 | 或者是某些我們像這次包含 |
| 00:06:02,000 | 00:06:03,000 | 本便皮的一些濃度 |
| 00:06:03,000 | 00:06:04,000 | 它去做其中的確認 |
| 00:06:04,000 | 00:06:05,000 | 好 去確認說 |
| 00:06:05,000 | 00:06:07,000 | 它是不是有符合它的HACCP |
| 00:06:07,000 | 00:06:08,000 | 那簡單講回來就是說 |
| 00:06:08,000 | 00:06:10,000 | 我們過去就有要求 |
| 00:06:10,000 | 00:06:12,000 | 這也是一個一直以來在推動的部分 |
| 00:06:12,000 | 00:06:14,000 | 但是其實當然對於這一次 |
| 00:06:14,000 | 00:06:15,000 | 我們未來在修法裡面 |
| 00:06:15,000 | 00:06:16,000 | 會處理一個事情 |
| 00:06:16,000 | 00:06:17,000 | 像這次的油脂案 |
| 00:06:17,000 | 00:06:18,000 | 因為它的量很大 |
| 00:06:18,000 | 00:06:19,000 | 再來它是一個 |
| 00:06:19,000 | 00:06:21,000 | 相對就只有幾家大的廠商 |
| 00:06:21,000 | 00:06:22,000 | 在做這樣的事情 |
| 00:06:22,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 那它的這個製程HACCP的品管 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:25,000 | 又非常的複雜 |
| 00:06:25,000 | 00:06:26,000 | 也非常的專業 |
| 00:06:26,000 | 00:06:29,000 | 所以我們未來在這一次的新的修法 |
| 00:06:29,000 | 00:06:30,000 | 第七條裡面 |
| 00:06:30,000 | 00:06:31,000 | 我們會再訂定就是說 |
| 00:06:31,000 | 00:06:33,000 | 符合一定類別跟規模的 |
| 00:06:33,000 | 00:06:35,000 | 相關的食品業者 |
| 00:06:35,000 | 00:06:36,000 | 它的這個HACCP |
| 00:06:36,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 這一些它的監測計畫 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:39,000 | 要送報請中央核定 |
| 00:06:39,000 | 00:06:40,000 | 核定之後 |
| 00:06:40,000 | 00:06:41,000 | 我們會給地方政府 |
| 00:06:41,000 | 00:06:43,000 | 讓它再針對這樣的HACCP管控節點 |
| 00:06:43,000 | 00:06:44,000 | 去做它的監測 |
| 00:06:44,000 | 00:06:45,000 | 去做它的檢查 |
| 00:06:45,000 | 00:06:46,000 | 所以你的意思是說 |
| 00:06:46,000 | 00:06:48,000 | 我們修法後會針對像這種 |
| 00:06:48,000 | 00:06:50,000 | 影響就是消費者 |
| 00:06:50,000 | 00:06:53,000 | 很大的上游的就是大廠 |
| 00:06:53,000 | 00:06:54,000 | 對 |
| 00:06:54,000 | 00:06:55,000 | 那HACCP |
| 00:06:55,000 | 00:06:58,000 | 它必須要報中央認可是不是 |
| 00:06:58,000 | 00:06:59,000 | 我們跟地方政府 |
| 00:06:59,000 | 00:07:00,000 | 在前兩天 |
| 00:07:00,000 | 00:07:02,000 | 我們跟地方政府討論的時候 |
| 00:07:02,000 | 00:07:03,000 | 我們這邊其實就是說 |
| 00:07:03,000 | 00:07:04,000 | 本來我們是希望說 |
| 00:07:04,000 | 00:07:06,000 | 它因為我們原來食安法 |
| 00:07:06,000 | 00:07:08,000 | 就有要求他們要訂監測計畫 |
| 00:07:08,000 | 00:07:09,000 | 是 |
| 00:07:09,000 | 00:07:10,000 | 那但是大家這一次關切到就是 |
| 00:07:10,000 | 00:07:13,000 | 台灣的食品非常多種 |
| 00:07:13,000 | 00:07:14,000 | 食品業者非常大 |
| 00:07:14,000 | 00:07:15,000 | 大小型都有 |
| 00:07:15,000 | 00:07:16,000 | 那像這一類大型 |
| 00:07:16,000 | 00:07:17,000 | 而且影響盛據 |
| 00:07:17,000 | 00:07:19,000 | 全國性的這樣的產業 |
| 00:07:19,000 | 00:07:20,000 | 那我們會希望說 |
| 00:07:20,000 | 00:07:21,000 | 它的監測計畫 |
| 00:07:21,000 | 00:07:22,000 | 要有一定程度的監管 |
| 00:07:22,000 | 00:07:23,000 | 那除了過去就是 |
| 00:07:23,000 | 00:07:24,000 | 剛剛委員所說的 |
| 00:07:24,000 | 00:07:26,000 | 我們用專案請地方政府 |
| 00:07:26,000 | 00:07:27,000 | 去做後續的檢查之外 |
| 00:07:27,000 | 00:07:28,000 | 我們要求前端 |
| 00:07:28,000 | 00:07:30,000 | 它就要送計畫上來 |
| 00:07:30,000 | 00:07:31,000 | 那我們會請專家 |
| 00:07:31,000 | 00:07:32,000 | 幫我們核定之後 |
| 00:07:32,000 | 00:07:34,000 | 交給地方衛生局 |
| 00:07:34,000 | 00:07:35,000 | 它未來就針對 |
| 00:07:35,000 | 00:07:36,000 | 專家核定過的 |
| 00:07:36,000 | 00:07:38,000 | 這個HACCP監測標準 |
| 00:07:38,000 | 00:07:39,000 | 去做後續的檢驗 |
| 00:07:39,000 | 00:07:40,000 | 了解 |
| 00:07:40,000 | 00:07:41,000 | 謝謝次長的說明 |
| 00:07:41,000 | 00:07:43,000 | 那我覺得回來看 |
| 00:07:43,000 | 00:07:46,000 | 就是我們會擔心的事情就是 |
| 00:07:46,000 | 00:07:47,000 | 目前的制度 |
| 00:07:47,000 | 00:07:49,000 | 其實高度依賴業者自律 |
| 00:07:49,000 | 00:07:51,000 | 這個大家都已經講到了 |
| 00:07:51,000 | 00:07:52,000 | 就一開始 |
| 00:07:52,000 | 00:07:55,000 | 不管是現在也是有第三方驗證 |
| 00:07:55,000 | 00:07:56,000 | 業者的食安制度 |
| 00:07:56,000 | 00:07:59,000 | 那它一開始向政府認證機構 |
| 00:07:59,000 | 00:08:00,000 | 提出申請 |
| 00:08:00,000 | 00:08:02,000 | 有效期間就三年 |
| 00:08:02,000 | 00:08:04,000 | 那看起來中間也沒有人 |
| 00:08:04,000 | 00:08:06,000 | 會針對這個流程做管理 |
| 00:08:06,000 | 00:08:07,000 | 這樣沒有錯吧 |
| 00:08:07,000 | 00:08:09,000 | 中間其實還是要去做追蹤查驗 |
| 00:08:09,000 | 00:08:10,000 | 那地方政府這邊 |
| 00:08:10,000 | 00:08:12,000 | 那就是是誰去做這個稽查 |
| 00:08:12,000 | 00:08:15,000 | 它也要再送給第三方驗證機構 |
| 00:08:15,000 | 00:08:17,000 | 去做定期的追蹤查驗 |
| 00:08:17,000 | 00:08:20,000 | 那現在第三方驗證機構 |
| 00:08:20,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 並不會主動去查驗對不對 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:23,000 | 它是被動 |
| 00:08:23,000 | 00:08:25,000 | 它必須要去 |
| 00:08:25,000 | 00:08:26,000 | 它必須要去 |
| 00:08:26,000 | 00:08:27,000 | 我請副署長 |
| 00:08:27,000 | 00:08:28,000 | 來 |
| 00:08:28,000 | 00:08:29,000 | 是 各位報告 |
| 00:08:29,000 | 00:08:30,000 | 目前這個第三級 |
| 00:08:30,000 | 00:08:31,000 | 第二級品管 |
| 00:08:31,000 | 00:08:33,000 | 第三方驗證的部分是 |
| 00:08:33,000 | 00:08:34,000 | 食品業者規範 |
| 00:08:34,000 | 00:08:36,000 | 就是有公告的業別 |
| 00:08:36,000 | 00:08:39,000 | 它必須一定要來申請驗證 |
| 00:08:39,000 | 00:08:41,000 | 那效期是三年 |
| 00:08:41,000 | 00:08:42,000 | 那這個當中 |
| 00:08:42,000 | 00:08:44,000 | 驗證機構也一定要再去做 |
| 00:08:44,000 | 00:08:45,000 | 追蹤查驗 |
| 00:08:45,000 | 00:08:46,000 | 那這三年內就是 |
| 00:08:46,000 | 00:08:48,000 | 譬如說以這次中年來講 |
| 00:08:48,000 | 00:08:49,000 | 它應該也得到 |
| 00:08:49,000 | 00:08:51,000 | 那個三年的驗證證明書 |
| 00:08:51,000 | 00:08:52,000 | 是 |
| 00:08:52,000 | 00:08:54,000 | 那第三方驗證 |
| 00:08:54,000 | 00:08:56,000 | 有中間去查驗嗎 |
| 00:08:56,000 | 00:08:58,000 | 有 那第三方其實驗證的時候 |
| 00:08:58,000 | 00:08:59,000 | 當然就包含剛剛委員講到的 |
| 00:08:59,000 | 00:09:01,000 | 包含HACCP的點 |
| 00:09:01,000 | 00:09:02,000 | 還有它在自主檢驗的頻率上面 |
| 00:09:02,000 | 00:09:04,000 | 有沒有依照現行規範 |
| 00:09:04,000 | 00:09:06,000 | 所以中聯的第三方驗證 |
| 00:09:06,000 | 00:09:07,000 | 也有做假嗎 |
| 00:09:07,000 | 00:09:09,000 | 要不然為什麼會出問題 |
| 00:09:09,000 | 00:09:12,000 | 你說這個中聯得到的那個 |
| 00:09:12,000 | 00:09:14,000 | 是有三年的效期 |
| 00:09:14,000 | 00:09:15,000 | 那第三方驗證 |
| 00:09:15,000 | 00:09:16,000 | 目前依照規定 |
| 00:09:16,000 | 00:09:17,000 | 它也要去查驗 |
| 00:09:17,000 | 00:09:18,000 | 是這樣沒錯 |
| 00:09:18,000 | 00:09:20,000 | 是 各位委員報告的部分 |
| 00:09:20,000 | 00:09:22,000 | 所以在這一次食安法的修正當中 |
| 00:09:22,000 | 00:09:24,000 | 其實我們也強化了這個驗證機構 |
| 00:09:24,000 | 00:09:27,000 | 它後續再進到這個工廠的時候 |
| 00:09:27,000 | 00:09:28,000 | 它可以去做抽樣 |
| 00:09:28,000 | 00:09:29,000 | 它去抽樣 |
| 00:09:29,000 | 00:09:31,000 | 一樣去送檢驗之後 |
| 00:09:31,000 | 00:09:33,000 | 再去跟業者本身自主檢驗的結果 |
| 00:09:33,000 | 00:09:34,000 | 去做比對 |
| 00:09:34,000 | 00:09:36,000 | 那如果有發現異常的話 |
| 00:09:36,000 | 00:09:39,000 | 驗證機構也要立即通報給主管機關 |
| 00:09:39,000 | 00:09:41,000 | 這是目前的規定是不是 |
| 00:09:41,000 | 00:09:43,000 | 這之後我們再修正這一塊的部分 |
| 00:09:43,000 | 00:09:47,000 | 那目前這個第三方驗證的部分 |
| 00:09:47,000 | 00:09:49,000 | 是說如果有出問題的話 |
| 00:09:49,000 | 00:09:51,000 | 那我們也希望能夠了解 |
| 00:09:51,000 | 00:09:54,000 | 然後未來怎麼改善很重要好不好 |
| 00:09:54,000 | 00:09:55,000 | 是 |
| 00:09:55,000 | 00:09:56,000 | 就是說這個第三方驗證 |
| 00:09:56,000 | 00:09:58,000 | 理論上中聯應該有得到 |
| 00:09:58,000 | 00:09:59,000 | 這個三年的效期 |
| 00:10:00,000 | 00:10:02,000 | 那中間依照你們講的第三方驗證 |
| 00:10:02,000 | 00:10:04,000 | 也應該要主動抽查嗎 |
| 00:10:04,000 | 00:10:06,000 | 跟委員報告一下 |
| 00:10:06,000 | 00:10:08,000 | 目前第三方驗證進場的時候 |
| 00:10:08,000 | 00:10:11,000 | 我就是比對它的HACCP的計畫 |
| 00:10:11,000 | 00:10:12,000 | 它有沒有照計畫去執行 |
| 00:10:12,000 | 00:10:14,000 | 那如果當然有一些它的記錄不完整 |
| 00:10:14,000 | 00:10:15,000 | 或什麼 |
| 00:10:15,000 | 00:10:16,000 | 我們就會開缺失 |
| 00:10:16,000 | 00:10:18,000 | 那基本上就會要求它改善 |
| 00:10:18,000 | 00:10:20,000 | 那同時也會去確認一下說 |
| 00:10:20,000 | 00:10:23,000 | 它有沒有依照規範的自主檢驗的頻率 |
| 00:10:23,000 | 00:10:24,000 | 去送驗 |
| 00:10:24,000 | 00:10:25,000 | 那這個從這次事件發現 |
| 00:10:25,000 | 00:10:27,000 | 那這可能會有不足的部分 |
| 00:10:27,000 | 00:10:28,000 | 所以我們在未來修法的時候 |
| 00:10:28,000 | 00:10:30,000 | 我們已經有強化了 |
| 00:10:30,000 | 00:10:32,000 | 那它也要去做一個抽樣 |
| 00:10:32,000 | 00:10:34,000 | 那我知道你們這次也有一個 |
| 00:10:34,000 | 00:10:37,000 | 就是所謂的外部調查對不對 |
| 00:10:37,000 | 00:10:38,000 | 然後已經進行 |
| 00:10:38,000 | 00:10:39,000 | 然後那個報告 |
| 00:10:39,000 | 00:10:42,000 | 我剛剛看你們這寫27號會出來嗎 |
| 00:10:42,000 | 00:10:44,000 | 那到時候都會主動給我們委員一份 |
| 00:10:44,000 | 00:10:45,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:10:45,000 | 00:10:46,000 | 可以 |
| 00:10:46,000 | 00:10:47,000 | 我們的目前就是說 |
| 00:10:47,000 | 00:10:49,000 | 我們是委託第三方調查 |
| 00:10:49,000 | 00:10:51,000 | 那調查小組這邊的專案的 |
| 00:10:51,000 | 00:10:52,000 | 就是這些專業委員 |
| 00:10:52,000 | 00:10:54,000 | 到時候會有一份報告出來 |
| 00:10:54,000 | 00:10:57,000 | 那報告書我們那個可以給本席一份嗎 |
| 00:10:57,000 | 00:10:58,000 | 我們報告書出來之後 |
| 00:10:58,000 | 00:10:59,000 | 我們可以給委員 |
| 00:10:59,000 | 00:11:00,000 | 好謝謝 |
| 00:11:00,000 | 00:11:03,000 | 那因為時間的緣故就是不夠 |
| 00:11:03,000 | 00:11:05,000 | 我想這個修法 |
| 00:11:05,000 | 00:11:07,000 | 因為我剛剛才看到你們這個 |
| 00:11:07,000 | 00:11:08,000 | 10點的細節內容 |
| 00:11:08,000 | 00:11:10,000 | 我覺得有幾個重點 |
| 00:11:10,000 | 00:11:11,000 | 第一個就是 |
| 00:11:11,000 | 00:11:13,000 | 中央負責建構標準 |
| 00:11:13,000 | 00:11:16,000 | 目前是地方主要負責執行 |
| 00:11:16,000 | 00:11:18,000 | 那中央是在必要的時候查驗 |
| 00:11:18,000 | 00:11:20,000 | 那如何透過修法 |
| 00:11:20,000 | 00:11:24,000 | 敦促確保各級主管機關落實執行 |
| 00:11:24,000 | 00:11:26,000 | 我看到你們已經把得改成因 |
| 00:11:26,000 | 00:11:27,000 | 對 |
| 00:11:27,000 | 00:11:29,000 | 那這個會不會有地方政府因 |
| 00:11:29,000 | 00:11:32,000 | 然後還是未去執行查驗呢 |
| 00:11:32,000 | 00:11:33,000 | 我們都已經寫因了 |
| 00:11:33,000 | 00:11:34,000 | 所以依法他就要去查驗 |
| 00:11:34,000 | 00:11:36,000 | 他如果沒有去就是違法了 |
| 00:11:36,000 | 00:11:37,000 | 就違反食安法 |
| 00:11:37,000 | 00:11:39,000 | 就是檢察院就可以彈劾或等等 |
| 00:11:39,000 | 00:11:40,000 | 好 |
| 00:11:40,000 | 00:11:41,000 | 那這是一個 |
| 00:11:41,000 | 00:11:43,000 | 另外一個其實也很多人提到 |
| 00:11:43,000 | 00:11:46,000 | 中下游無辜廠商的補償 |
| 00:11:46,000 | 00:11:49,000 | 那目前你們有計畫要處理嗎 |
| 00:11:49,000 | 00:11:50,000 | 如果有的話 |
| 00:11:50,000 | 00:11:51,000 | 我們目前是這樣 |
| 00:11:51,000 | 00:11:52,000 | 就是說中下游的廠商 |
| 00:11:52,000 | 00:11:53,000 | 我們也非常 |
| 00:11:53,000 | 00:11:55,000 | 我們知道這一次中下游的廠商 |
| 00:11:55,000 | 00:11:56,000 | 波及很大 |
| 00:11:56,000 | 00:11:57,000 | 那尤其很多中下游廠商 |
| 00:11:57,000 | 00:11:59,000 | 他預防性下架之後 |
| 00:11:59,000 | 00:12:00,000 | 當然像現在我們檢驗合格 |
| 00:12:00,000 | 00:12:01,000 | 他理論上可以上架 |
| 00:12:01,000 | 00:12:04,000 | 可是有些預防性下架的廠商的食品 |
| 00:12:04,000 | 00:12:05,000 | 可能是有效期的 |
| 00:12:05,000 | 00:12:06,000 | 他根本預防性下架之後 |
| 00:12:06,000 | 00:12:08,000 | 就不可能再上架了 |
| 00:12:08,000 | 00:12:11,000 | 這個部分是有一定程度的損害 |
| 00:12:11,000 | 00:12:13,000 | 那至於後續這些損害的補償 |
| 00:12:13,000 | 00:12:14,000 | 我們會再 |
| 00:12:14,000 | 00:12:16,000 | 就是包含現在消保處這邊 |
| 00:12:16,000 | 00:12:18,000 | 還有我們正在跟經濟部討論 |
| 00:12:18,000 | 00:12:20,000 | 昨天經濟部也有跟廠商開會 |
| 00:12:20,000 | 00:12:21,000 | 好 |
| 00:12:21,000 | 00:12:22,000 | 那這部分我覺得無辜的廠商 |
| 00:12:22,000 | 00:12:24,000 | 是不是能動用食安基金 |
| 00:12:24,000 | 00:12:25,000 | 或者是賠款 |
| 00:12:25,000 | 00:12:27,000 | 因為他有罰款嘛 |
| 00:12:27,000 | 00:12:28,000 | 這個中年有罰款 |
| 00:12:28,000 | 00:12:29,000 | 等等 |
| 00:12:29,000 | 00:12:33,000 | 或者是甚至是協助就是說訴訟 |
| 00:12:33,000 | 00:12:36,000 | 那請衛福部都能夠多管齊下去考慮好嗎 |
| 00:12:36,000 | 00:12:39,000 | 昨天我們跟經濟部一起 |
| 00:12:39,000 | 00:12:40,000 | 跟廠商開的會裡面 |
| 00:12:40,000 | 00:12:43,000 | 未來會由就是相關的廠商這邊的團體 |
| 00:12:43,000 | 00:12:44,000 | 公會這邊來提出 |
| 00:12:44,000 | 00:12:45,000 | 那我們再看看 |
| 00:12:45,000 | 00:12:46,000 | 依照現行法規 |
| 00:12:46,000 | 00:12:47,000 | 可以做到什麼樣的協助 |
| 00:12:47,000 | 00:12:48,000 | 好 |
| 00:12:48,000 | 00:12:51,000 | 那最後還是回到這個修法 |
| 00:12:51,000 | 00:12:53,000 | 那我希望這個製程管理 |
| 00:12:53,000 | 00:12:54,000 | 就像我剛講的 |
| 00:12:54,000 | 00:12:57,000 | 日本的這個就是相關的製程管理 |
| 00:12:57,000 | 00:13:00,000 | 是不是還有台灣可以精進的部分 |
| 00:13:00,000 | 00:13:04,000 | 那另外就是各級主管機關的食安監督權責 |
| 00:13:04,000 | 00:13:06,000 | 如何明確然後合作 |
| 00:13:06,000 | 00:13:10,000 | 最後一個無辜中下游廠商的賠償 |
| 00:13:10,000 | 00:13:13,000 | 都或者是補償都能夠明確入法 |
| 00:13:13,000 | 00:13:17,000 | 這三點就是衛福部目前的法規都有做到嗎 |
| 00:13:17,000 | 00:13:19,000 | 我們接下來就是會把這幾個部分 |
| 00:13:19,000 | 00:13:21,000 | 都在修法草案裡面事實上有納入 |
| 00:13:21,000 | 00:13:25,000 | 也比較明確強化相關的監督的權責 |
| 00:13:25,000 | 00:13:27,000 | 中央跟地方的分界 |
| 00:13:27,000 | 00:13:29,000 | 以及就是說前端製程的管理 |
| 00:13:29,000 | 00:13:32,000 | 有一些這種特定大型的影響甚至的廠商 |
| 00:13:32,000 | 00:13:34,000 | 我們會在後續的執法裡面 |
| 00:13:34,000 | 00:13:36,000 | 提到要怎麼樣去做加強 |
| 00:13:36,000 | 00:13:37,000 | 那其實再跟委員補充 |
| 00:13:37,000 | 00:13:39,000 | 就是其實現在台灣在食安的部分 |
| 00:13:39,000 | 00:13:41,000 | 已經這幾年持續過去的十幾年 |
| 00:13:41,000 | 00:13:42,000 | 我們持續在進步 |
| 00:13:42,000 | 00:13:45,000 | 所以學會CCP事實上就是對於這些業者 |
| 00:13:45,000 | 00:13:46,000 | 本來就有的要求跟日本一樣 |
| 00:13:46,000 | 00:13:48,000 | 但是我想我們現在也在看說 |
| 00:13:48,000 | 00:13:51,000 | 日本的廠商對於他們自己的自主的責任 |
| 00:13:51,000 | 00:13:53,000 | 跟台灣的廠商對於自主應有的責任 |
| 00:13:53,000 | 00:13:55,000 | 我想這有文化上很大的不同 |
| 00:13:55,000 | 00:13:57,000 | 這個部分我們後續可能要在相關的監管裡面 |
| 00:13:57,000 | 00:13:59,000 | 再做比較大的強度的處理 |
| 00:13:59,000 | 00:14:02,000 | 那當然就本席講到日本的制度 |
| 00:14:02,000 | 00:14:04,000 | 本席還有看到一個就是 |
| 00:14:04,000 | 00:14:06,000 | 日本對這個食安檢察員 |
| 00:14:06,000 | 00:14:09,000 | 他的規範跟一條邊的程度 |
| 00:14:09,000 | 00:14:11,000 | 也跟台灣有一些不同 |
| 00:14:11,000 | 00:14:13,000 | 那也許就是說衛福部這邊如果了解的話 |
| 00:14:13,000 | 00:14:15,000 | 不管是這次修法 |
| 00:14:15,000 | 00:14:17,000 | 也希望未來能夠精進好嗎 |
| 00:14:17,000 | 00:14:19,000 | 因為台灣現在也是個經濟大國 |
| 00:14:19,000 | 00:14:22,000 | 我們食安的標準是跟歐盟跟日本 |
| 00:14:22,000 | 00:14:24,000 | 希望能夠越一致越好 |
| 00:14:24,000 | 00:14:27,000 | 事實上我們的標準都設定的其實都蠻高的 |
| 00:14:27,000 | 00:14:28,000 | 那當然中間很多 |
| 00:14:28,000 | 00:14:30,000 | 因為台灣很多中小型企業 |
| 00:14:30,000 | 00:14:32,000 | 那我們對於大企業我們客責要多一點 |
| 00:14:32,000 | 00:14:35,000 | 中小型業這邊我們一樣在品質上面來做一些協助 |
| 00:14:35,000 | 00:14:39,000 | 好 畢竟這個食安不分藍綠是沒有妥協的空間 |
| 00:14:39,000 | 00:14:40,000 | 好 以上 謝謝 |
| 00:14:40,000 | 00:14:41,000 | 謝謝委員 |