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吳宗憲 @ 第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:07,000 | 好 謝謝主席 我們麻煩衛福部長 |
| 00:00:07,000 | 00:00:09,000 | 麻煩部長 |
| 00:00:09,000 | 00:00:17,000 | 好 部長我先跟您提到 |
| 00:00:17,000 | 00:00:21,000 | 就是2014以前的那個2014那個問題 |
| 00:00:21,000 | 00:00:24,000 | 其實2014頂新的那個案子 |
| 00:00:24,000 | 00:00:27,000 | 其實我們當時從案子我們學到一個概念 |
| 00:00:27,000 | 00:00:29,000 | 就是說他一審都判無罪 |
| 00:00:29,000 | 00:00:33,000 | 所以當時其實輿論還一直罵檢方說 |
| 00:00:33,000 | 00:00:36,000 | 你們胡亂起訴 你們濫行起訴 |
| 00:00:36,000 | 00:00:41,000 | 還好是後來檢方他有再去找到新的證據來補強 |
| 00:00:41,000 | 00:00:45,000 | 補強說他有購入的那個原料的油 |
| 00:00:45,000 | 00:00:48,000 | 他的酸價過高還有重金屬含量不符標準 |
| 00:00:48,000 | 00:00:52,000 | 否則這個案子當時就會一路無罪到確定了 |
| 00:00:52,000 | 00:00:56,000 | 也就是說今天如果說我們相關的市政 |
| 00:00:56,000 | 00:00:58,000 | 如果沒有辦法準備齊全 |
| 00:00:58,000 | 00:01:00,000 | 或者是那個我們扣留的證據 |
| 00:01:00,000 | 00:01:02,000 | 沒有辦法有證據能力的話 |
| 00:01:02,000 | 00:01:04,000 | 以後會完全影響到整個案子 |
| 00:01:04,000 | 00:01:07,000 | 變成說你到時候大家都把壞的油吃到肚子裡 |
| 00:01:07,000 | 00:01:08,000 | 但是業者都會判無罪 |
| 00:01:08,000 | 00:01:10,000 | 所以今天這個教訓是什麼 |
| 00:01:10,000 | 00:01:12,000 | 就是食安犯罪的成敗 |
| 00:01:12,000 | 00:01:15,000 | 不是法庭上面就決定了 |
| 00:01:15,000 | 00:01:18,000 | 而是第一個時間你有沒有證據保全 |
| 00:01:18,000 | 00:01:20,000 | 你的稽查的紀錄有沒有留存 |
| 00:01:20,000 | 00:01:21,000 | 這個是重點 |
| 00:01:21,000 | 00:01:26,000 | 那今天我們發生了這個中聯的自來油的案件 |
| 00:01:26,000 | 00:01:27,000 | 我就會擔心這個部分 |
| 00:01:27,000 | 00:01:30,000 | 所以我今天才會跟衛福部請你來 |
| 00:01:30,000 | 00:01:32,000 | 當然法務部今天有來 |
| 00:01:32,000 | 00:01:34,000 | 那法務部這邊我可能知道就好 |
| 00:01:34,000 | 00:01:37,000 | 我現在主要還是跟衛福部來做溝通 |
| 00:01:37,000 | 00:01:39,000 | 因為你們這一次的書面報告寫得很漂亮 |
| 00:01:39,000 | 00:01:41,000 | 說要公開透明 |
| 00:01:41,000 | 00:01:42,000 | 及時風險溝通 |
| 00:01:42,000 | 00:01:44,000 | 逐批查驗 |
| 00:01:44,000 | 00:01:48,000 | 但是這個東西這三個問題 |
| 00:01:48,000 | 00:01:52,000 | 全部都跟到底有沒有留下證據有關係 |
| 00:01:52,000 | 00:01:54,000 | 也就是說有沒有留下紀錄 |
| 00:01:54,000 | 00:01:55,000 | 有沒有留下證據 |
| 00:01:55,000 | 00:01:58,000 | 事後人有沒有辦法篡改 |
| 00:01:58,000 | 00:02:00,000 | 有沒有辦法讓他們賴都賴不掉 |
| 00:02:00,000 | 00:02:03,000 | 這個才是行政機關要做到的 |
| 00:02:03,000 | 00:02:07,000 | 因為這些資料都是將來我們要給法庭的證據 |
| 00:02:07,000 | 00:02:11,000 | 所以到底我們今天的流樣制度會不會形同虛設 |
| 00:02:11,000 | 00:02:13,000 | 因為你自己的報告也有提到 |
| 00:02:13,000 | 00:02:16,000 | 7月21號食藥署風險 |
| 00:02:16,000 | 00:02:22,000 | 那個知義會處理的批次裡面有一批沒有檢體 |
| 00:02:22,000 | 00:02:25,000 | 也就是說你今天樣本都留不住了 |
| 00:02:25,000 | 00:02:26,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:02:26,000 | 00:02:27,000 | 這就一個很大的問題嘛 |
| 00:02:27,000 | 00:02:30,000 | 等於我們流樣制度有一個好大的缺口 |
| 00:02:30,000 | 00:02:32,000 | 竟然有東西我們連樣本都沒有 |
| 00:02:32,000 | 00:02:33,000 | 證據都沒有 |
| 00:02:33,000 | 00:02:37,000 | 有這種東西就算底下釋出很大的問題 |
| 00:02:37,000 | 00:02:39,000 | 到法庭法官也判不下去 |
| 00:02:39,000 | 00:02:42,000 | 所以您之前措訪的時候有說 |
| 00:02:42,000 | 00:02:43,000 | 29批樣本 |
| 00:02:43,000 | 00:02:46,000 | 送第三方實驗室有驗出來幾乎合格 |
| 00:02:46,000 | 00:02:51,000 | 但是下游廠商的產品卻驗出本便比超標 |
| 00:02:51,000 | 00:02:53,000 | 對不對 這個沒錯吧 |
| 00:02:53,000 | 00:02:56,000 | 我簡單的跟委員說明 |
| 00:02:56,000 | 00:02:59,000 | 確實這個證據的保全是非常重要 |
| 00:02:59,000 | 00:03:01,000 | 您指示的方向是 |
| 00:03:01,000 | 00:03:03,000 | 我們完全是按照這樣做 |
| 00:03:03,000 | 00:03:07,000 | 在中聯油廠裡面它需要有樣本 |
| 00:03:07,000 | 00:03:11,000 | 所以它30個批次的樣本都有 |
| 00:03:11,000 | 00:03:14,000 | 只是檢驗出來的結果都符合 |
| 00:03:14,000 | 00:03:19,000 | 但是下游的產品檢出有超標 |
| 00:03:19,000 | 00:03:21,000 | 所以表示這個樣本有問題 |
| 00:03:21,000 | 00:03:25,000 | 所以剛才你提到有一個沒有檢體 |
| 00:03:25,000 | 00:03:26,000 | 指的是第二層 |
| 00:03:26,000 | 00:03:29,000 | 所以你是不是有說不排除檢體召 |
| 00:03:29,000 | 00:03:31,000 | 調換或造假 |
| 00:03:31,000 | 00:03:33,000 | 你有對外這樣講對不對 |
| 00:03:33,000 | 00:03:35,000 | 部長這個代表什麼 |
| 00:03:35,000 | 00:03:37,000 | 就代表你們在管理的機制裡面 |
| 00:03:37,000 | 00:03:40,000 | 業者自己留樣自己送驗 |
| 00:03:40,000 | 00:03:42,000 | 行政機關沒有獨立的留樣 |
| 00:03:42,000 | 00:03:44,000 | 沒有平行的採樣 |
| 00:03:44,000 | 00:03:47,000 | 也就是說你沒有留下一份證據 |
| 00:03:47,000 | 00:03:49,000 | 你沒有自己留一份 |
| 00:03:49,000 | 00:03:50,000 | 你也沒有自己採一份 |
| 00:03:50,000 | 00:03:52,000 | 那這樣子的制度變成是 |
| 00:03:52,000 | 00:03:53,000 | 業者你自己驗 |
| 00:03:53,000 | 00:03:54,000 | 自己留自己驗 |
| 00:03:54,000 | 00:03:55,000 | 驗完數據給我 |
| 00:03:55,000 | 00:03:58,000 | 那我變成只有幫你背書的份而已 |
| 00:03:58,000 | 00:04:00,000 | 我完全沒有積合 |
| 00:04:00,000 | 00:04:01,000 | 我也沒有留任何東西 |
| 00:04:01,000 | 00:04:03,000 | 這就是我目前覺得 |
| 00:04:03,000 | 00:04:06,000 | 那等於有管跟沒有管一樣 |
| 00:04:06,000 | 00:04:09,000 | 那我要再跟部長說一下 |
| 00:04:09,000 | 00:04:11,000 | 我們立法院的預算中心有說到 |
| 00:04:11,000 | 00:04:15,000 | 時安預算從109年的56.34億 |
| 00:04:15,000 | 00:04:18,000 | 成長到113年的106.95億 |
| 00:04:18,000 | 00:04:20,000 | 漲幅快九成 |
| 00:04:20,000 | 00:04:24,000 | 那後來我們的卓榮泰院長也說了 |
| 00:04:24,000 | 00:04:30,000 | 114年時安整體的預算編列到109.8億 |
| 00:04:30,000 | 00:04:32,000 | 然後後來又說 |
| 00:04:32,000 | 00:04:35,000 | 多了一個時安新計畫 |
| 00:04:35,000 | 00:04:36,000 | 多了18.5億 |
| 00:04:36,000 | 00:04:38,000 | 我想這個部長一定非常熟 |
| 00:04:38,000 | 00:04:39,000 | 我就不再多論述 |
| 00:04:39,000 | 00:04:41,000 | 也就是說我們這幾年 |
| 00:04:41,000 | 00:04:43,000 | 已經花了好幾百億 |
| 00:04:43,000 | 00:04:44,000 | 在時安上面 |
| 00:04:44,000 | 00:04:46,000 | 但是我們現在連家庭的油都出問題 |
| 00:04:46,000 | 00:04:47,000 | 這個是我覺得 |
| 00:04:47,000 | 00:04:49,000 | 我們國家花那麼多錢 |
| 00:04:49,000 | 00:04:51,000 | 但是我們得不到好的效果 |
| 00:04:51,000 | 00:04:54,000 | 我想這個也是民眾心裡打的一個問號 |
| 00:04:54,000 | 00:04:56,000 | 那所以現在的問題 |
| 00:04:56,000 | 00:04:58,000 | 在這一次中聯油案爆發之前 |
| 00:04:58,000 | 00:05:00,000 | 這些廠商的留痕 |
| 00:05:00,000 | 00:05:03,000 | 留下證據留痕的這個機制 |
| 00:05:03,000 | 00:05:05,000 | 完全都不存在嗎 |
| 00:05:05,000 | 00:05:06,000 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:05:06,000 | 00:05:10,000 | 所以在時安的三級評管當中 |
| 00:05:10,000 | 00:05:11,000 | 還有第三級 |
| 00:05:11,000 | 00:05:13,000 | 第三級就是地方衛生局 |
| 00:05:13,000 | 00:05:15,000 | 叫進行實地的查場 |
| 00:05:15,000 | 00:05:17,000 | 也具有抽樣 |
| 00:05:17,000 | 00:05:20,000 | 所以除了他自己的樣本要保留 |
| 00:05:20,000 | 00:05:22,000 | 依法要保留之外 |
| 00:05:22,000 | 00:05:25,000 | 那麼地方主管機關在稽查的時候 |
| 00:05:25,000 | 00:05:26,000 | 也可以抽樣 |
| 00:05:26,000 | 00:05:30,000 | 所以有幾個衛生局他的抽樣很頻繁 |
| 00:05:30,000 | 00:05:32,000 | 也是應於這樣的法律授權去執行 |
| 00:05:32,000 | 00:05:34,000 | 他們抽樣是對於 |
| 00:05:34,000 | 00:05:36,000 | 廠商留存的樣本抽樣 |
| 00:05:36,000 | 00:05:39,000 | 還是直接到地點去抽樣 |
| 00:05:39,000 | 00:05:40,000 | 對直接抽樣 |
| 00:05:40,000 | 00:05:41,000 | 因為你們這一次 |
| 00:05:41,000 | 00:05:43,000 | 我要先講一件事情就是說 |
| 00:05:43,000 | 00:05:47,000 | 因為你們這一次有提到的所謂的 |
| 00:05:47,000 | 00:05:50,000 | 什麼修法十大方向等等 |
| 00:05:50,000 | 00:05:51,000 | 但我要跟你們講 |
| 00:05:51,000 | 00:05:53,000 | 其實我們一直到現在 |
| 00:05:53,000 | 00:05:54,000 | 我們不是沒有法律 |
| 00:05:54,000 | 00:05:56,000 | 你們一直說要修法 |
| 00:05:56,000 | 00:05:57,000 | 因為我到立法院來 |
| 00:05:57,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 我才有一個感覺 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:06:01,000 | 行政機關每次事情沒有做好 |
| 00:06:01,000 | 00:06:02,000 | 他就說我們要修法 |
| 00:06:02,000 | 00:06:05,000 | 但是很多時候法律早就有了 |
| 00:06:05,000 | 00:06:07,000 | 行政機關推責任的另外一個推法 |
| 00:06:07,000 | 00:06:08,000 | 就是推給立法院 |
| 00:06:08,000 | 00:06:11,000 | 我跟你說像我們十三法第七條 |
| 00:06:11,000 | 00:06:14,000 | 就有要求業者發現有危害之虞 |
| 00:06:14,000 | 00:06:15,000 | 就要急通報 |
| 00:06:15,000 | 00:06:18,000 | 第九條他有要求有職業者 |
| 00:06:18,000 | 00:06:21,000 | 建立追溯追蹤系統電子申報流向 |
| 00:06:21,000 | 00:06:22,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:06:22,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 那中聯他就是這個第九條的 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:27,000 | 這個使用有有職的業者 |
| 00:06:27,000 | 00:06:30,000 | 所以很多時候我們目前行政機關 |
| 00:06:30,000 | 00:06:33,000 | 行政的作為不是沒有法律依據 |
| 00:06:33,000 | 00:06:36,000 | 而是業者他會繞過法律依據 |
| 00:06:36,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 去騙你們對不對 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:39,000 | 我沒有說你們錯 |
| 00:06:39,000 | 00:06:40,000 | 他會騙你們 |
| 00:06:40,000 | 00:06:42,000 | 所以不是沒有法律 |
| 00:06:42,000 | 00:06:45,000 | 而是執行上面有漏洞讓他們鑽 |
| 00:06:45,000 | 00:06:47,000 | 所以這個不是修法的問題 |
| 00:06:47,000 | 00:06:50,000 | 常常是行政機關行政的問題 |
| 00:06:50,000 | 00:06:52,000 | 我這邊先跟部長說 |
| 00:06:52,000 | 00:06:54,000 | 我是不是可以跟委員說明 |
| 00:06:54,000 | 00:06:57,000 | 因為這個通報你這邊寫的很對 |
| 00:06:57,000 | 00:07:01,000 | 他這個一直隱匿而且延遲通報 |
| 00:07:01,000 | 00:07:03,000 | 所以一方面我們要把通報的 |
| 00:07:03,000 | 00:07:05,000 | 延遲的代價提高 |
| 00:07:05,000 | 00:07:07,000 | 所以他的罰款要增加 |
| 00:07:07,000 | 00:07:12,000 | 之外也要賦予檢驗的單位的通報 |
| 00:07:12,000 | 00:07:15,000 | 因為其實他這個檢驗是在外送 |
| 00:07:15,000 | 00:07:17,000 | 但是這些制度早就都有了 |
| 00:07:17,000 | 00:07:18,000 | 法律都有了 |
| 00:07:18,000 | 00:07:20,000 | 過去的通報的責任只限制在 |
| 00:07:20,000 | 00:07:21,000 | 法律都有了 |
| 00:07:21,000 | 00:07:22,000 | 所以我們希望能夠 |
| 00:07:22,000 | 00:07:24,000 | 你說要提高罰則我沒意見 |
| 00:07:24,000 | 00:07:26,000 | 但是很多東西你說該做的 |
| 00:07:26,000 | 00:07:27,000 | 要修法要做的 |
| 00:07:27,000 | 00:07:29,000 | 法律早就都有了 |
| 00:07:29,000 | 00:07:30,000 | 我們希望讓他 |
| 00:07:30,000 | 00:07:33,000 | 我跟你講行政機關不能責任都往外推 |
| 00:07:34,000 | 00:07:36,000 | 要嘛中央這次我看到了 |
| 00:07:36,000 | 00:07:37,000 | 中央就推給地方 |
| 00:07:37,000 | 00:07:40,000 | 食安的問題中央推給地方 |
| 00:07:40,000 | 00:07:42,000 | 然後我們有意見之後 |
| 00:07:42,000 | 00:07:43,000 | 又推給立法院 |
| 00:07:43,000 | 00:07:44,000 | 原來我們立法不足 |
| 00:07:44,000 | 00:07:46,000 | 事實上我剛已經告訴你了 |
| 00:07:46,000 | 00:07:47,000 | 我們的法律早就有了 |
| 00:07:47,000 | 00:07:49,000 | 是你們沒有做好 |
| 00:07:49,000 | 00:07:51,000 | 然後你現在就推說 |
| 00:07:51,000 | 00:07:53,000 | 立法法律不足我現在要推修法 |
| 00:07:53,000 | 00:07:56,000 | 你修來修去他還是早就有那個法律在 |
| 00:07:56,000 | 00:07:59,000 | 所以我看到的是被人家發現問題以後 |
| 00:07:59,000 | 00:08:01,000 | 中央推地方機關 |
| 00:08:01,000 | 00:08:04,000 | 不然就行政院推立法院 |
| 00:08:04,000 | 00:08:07,000 | 這樣不是一個負責任政府該有的樣子 |
| 00:08:07,000 | 00:08:10,000 | 那我請問一下這一次你們十大修正的 |
| 00:08:10,000 | 00:08:12,000 | 重點裡面有沒有要求業者 |
| 00:08:12,000 | 00:08:15,000 | 即時上傳自主檢驗的資料 |
| 00:08:15,000 | 00:08:20,000 | 還是那個你們有沒有要求他們這個部分 |
| 00:08:20,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 我們要求的是檢驗室 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:24,000 | 不要再透過業者 |
| 00:08:24,000 | 00:08:26,000 | 所以檢驗室就要上傳 |
| 00:08:26,000 | 00:08:28,000 | 請問一下你們這一次 |
| 00:08:28,000 | 00:08:29,000 | 修法的部分有沒有提到 |
| 00:08:29,000 | 00:08:32,000 | 有行政機關獨立採樣或全程監督 |
| 00:08:32,000 | 00:08:33,000 | 有沒有提到這個部分 |
| 00:08:33,000 | 00:08:35,000 | 這一次也把它修進去 |
| 00:08:35,000 | 00:08:36,000 | 那是在哪一條 |
| 00:08:36,000 | 00:08:37,000 | 過去是得 |
| 00:08:37,000 | 00:08:38,000 | 是在哪一條 |
| 00:08:38,000 | 00:08:39,000 | 在41條 |
| 00:08:39,000 | 00:08:43,000 | 地方主管機關就可以得執行查場跟抽驗 |
| 00:08:43,000 | 00:08:45,000 | 那這一次我們會把它改成因 |
| 00:08:45,000 | 00:08:47,000 | 那以後一定要這樣做 |
| 00:08:47,000 | 00:08:50,000 | 好你們有把這個地方補這個地方是不是 |
| 00:08:50,000 | 00:08:51,000 | 對 |
| 00:08:51,000 | 00:08:53,000 | 那因為我要跟你們講的就是說 |
| 00:08:53,000 | 00:08:56,000 | 我們現在看到的你們的作為 |
| 00:08:56,000 | 00:08:59,000 | 會讓業者會找一個洞來鑽 |
| 00:08:59,000 | 00:09:02,000 | 結果我們相關的行政處罰 |
| 00:09:02,000 | 00:09:05,000 | 都只有去處罰到可能偷懶的人 |
| 00:09:05,000 | 00:09:08,000 | 但是造假的你們都束手無策 |
| 00:09:08,000 | 00:09:09,000 | 我這次看到的是這樣 |
| 00:09:09,000 | 00:09:11,000 | 然後你只是告訴我們說 |
| 00:09:11,000 | 00:09:14,000 | 不排除中聯他們掉包樣品 |
| 00:09:14,000 | 00:09:15,000 | 但是呢 |
| 00:09:15,000 | 00:09:17,000 | 你們卻對於這個有沒有掉包 |
| 00:09:17,000 | 00:09:18,000 | 你們卻束手無策 |
| 00:09:18,000 | 00:09:21,000 | 事實上這個東西本來就可以經由 |
| 00:09:21,000 | 00:09:24,000 | 你們自己主動介入去抽查 |
| 00:09:24,000 | 00:09:26,000 | 去你們強制自己 |
| 00:09:26,000 | 00:09:30,000 | 你們留下樣樣本的方式來解決 |
| 00:09:30,000 | 00:09:31,000 | 這個本來都可以解決 |
| 00:09:31,000 | 00:09:32,000 | 不是不能解決 |
| 00:09:32,000 | 00:09:35,000 | 所以我要現在要講的就是說 |
| 00:09:35,000 | 00:09:38,000 | 我們其實不是缺乏法律 |
| 00:09:38,000 | 00:09:40,000 | 我們是缺乏你們怎麼執行 |
| 00:09:40,000 | 00:09:42,000 | 還有你們證據怎麼保存 |
| 00:09:42,000 | 00:09:44,000 | 我希望這一次不要到最後 |
| 00:09:44,000 | 00:09:46,000 | 又變成一審法院又判無罪 |
| 00:09:46,000 | 00:09:48,000 | 因為他認為說證據能力有問題 |
| 00:09:48,000 | 00:09:50,000 | 或是證據證明力有問題 |
| 00:09:50,000 | 00:09:51,000 | 那這個都不行 |
| 00:09:51,000 | 00:09:54,000 | 還有那個我要講的一個 |
| 00:09:54,000 | 00:09:57,000 | 你們花了10億去做的那個食品雲 |
| 00:09:57,000 | 00:09:58,000 | 也有問題啊 |
| 00:09:58,000 | 00:10:00,000 | 你這次花了10億去做 |
| 00:10:00,000 | 00:10:02,000 | 結果2.75萬噸的油流去哪裡 |
| 00:10:02,000 | 00:10:05,000 | 還是靠公務員一通電話這樣打 |
| 00:10:05,000 | 00:10:06,000 | 這個也不對啊 |
| 00:10:06,000 | 00:10:08,000 | 然後再來報告你們 |
| 00:10:08,000 | 00:10:11,000 | 裡面你們提到了即時兩個字 |
| 00:10:11,000 | 00:10:13,000 | 結果呢我們看到的是 |
| 00:10:13,000 | 00:10:14,000 | 6月30號通報 |
| 00:10:14,000 | 00:10:17,000 | 7月20號才委託食品所 |
| 00:10:17,000 | 00:10:18,000 | 要成立調查小組 |
| 00:10:18,000 | 00:10:21,000 | 所以所謂的即時我也看不到 |
| 00:10:21,000 | 00:10:24,000 | 三個禮拜我認為這個不叫即時 |
| 00:10:24,000 | 00:10:26,000 | 所以我還是要跟你們說明一個點 |
| 00:10:26,000 | 00:10:29,000 | 就因為我自己是請阿寬出生 |
| 00:10:29,000 | 00:10:31,000 | 但是我後來轉去念公共衛生 |
| 00:10:31,000 | 00:10:34,000 | 所以相關的專業治理 |
| 00:10:34,000 | 00:10:36,000 | 我想我還是沒有辦法接受 |
| 00:10:36,000 | 00:10:37,000 | 你們很多地方 |
| 00:10:37,000 | 00:10:38,000 | 就像我剛剛講的 |
| 00:10:38,000 | 00:10:41,000 | 你們說的那個20%的標準 |
| 00:10:41,000 | 00:10:43,000 | 我到現在我還找不到 |
| 00:10:43,000 | 00:10:45,000 | 科學的依據在哪裡 |
| 00:10:45,000 | 00:10:46,000 | 我問了我很多同學 |
| 00:10:46,000 | 00:10:47,000 | 我問了我很多老師 |
| 00:10:47,000 | 00:10:50,000 | 他們都是公衛生專業的 |
| 00:10:50,000 | 00:10:51,000 | 甚至臨床醫師 |
| 00:10:51,000 | 00:10:52,000 | 他們也講不出來 |
| 00:10:52,000 | 00:10:54,000 | 所謂的致癌物質20%以下 |
| 00:10:54,000 | 00:10:55,000 | 這是可容許範圍 |
| 00:10:55,000 | 00:10:59,000 | 從來我不知道這個數據是從何來 |
| 00:10:59,000 | 00:11:01,000 | 一個行政機關這麼專業的機關 |
| 00:11:01,000 | 00:11:02,000 | 可以這麼做 |
| 00:11:02,000 | 00:11:04,000 | 我是覺得不可思議啦 |
| 00:11:04,000 | 00:11:06,000 | 因為我跟你講 |
| 00:11:06,000 | 00:11:08,000 | 跟部長報告一件事情 |
| 00:11:08,000 | 00:11:10,000 | 今天這是我很不高興 |
| 00:11:10,000 | 00:11:12,000 | 我認為要替人民講話就是 |
| 00:11:12,000 | 00:11:15,000 | 我爸爸媽媽都80幾歲了 |
| 00:11:15,000 | 00:11:17,000 | 我小孩兩個多月 |
| 00:11:17,000 | 00:11:18,000 | 我讓他們吃這種東西 |
| 00:11:18,000 | 00:11:20,000 | 我一定跟你拼命 |
| 00:11:20,000 | 00:11:21,000 | 哪一個業者哪有毒的東西 |
| 00:11:21,000 | 00:11:22,000 | 給我的爸媽吃 |
| 00:11:22,000 | 00:11:23,000 | 給我的小孩吃 |
| 00:11:23,000 | 00:11:25,000 | 我一定跟你拼命 |
| 00:11:25,000 | 00:11:26,000 | 所以今天這個事情 |
| 00:11:26,000 | 00:11:28,000 | 我不能容許這樣發生 |
| 00:11:28,000 | 00:11:30,000 | 更何況受害的是我們全國的人民 |
| 00:11:30,000 | 00:11:31,000 | 好不好 |
| 00:11:31,000 | 00:11:33,000 | 所以麻煩你們這件事情真的 |
| 00:11:33,000 | 00:11:34,000 | 要趕快處理 |
| 00:11:34,000 | 00:11:35,000 | 我跟委員報告 |
| 00:11:35,000 | 00:11:37,000 | 我的感受是跟你一樣 |
| 00:11:37,000 | 00:11:38,000 | 所以對這個業者 |
| 00:11:38,000 | 00:11:40,000 | 我們要給予最嚴厲的處分 |
| 00:11:40,000 | 00:11:43,000 | 那麼至於剛剛的下架標準 |
| 00:11:43,000 | 00:11:44,000 | 也跟委員說明 |
| 00:11:44,000 | 00:11:46,000 | 我們過去的下架標準 |
| 00:11:46,000 | 00:11:47,000 | 跟歐盟是一樣 |
| 00:11:47,000 | 00:11:49,000 | 那這一次我們採比歐盟 |
| 00:11:49,000 | 00:11:51,000 | 更高的下架標準 |
| 00:11:51,000 | 00:11:52,000 | 我知道 |
| 00:11:52,000 | 00:11:53,000 | 就是下架標準 |
| 00:11:53,000 | 00:11:55,000 | 我們是比歐盟還要嚴 |
| 00:11:55,000 | 00:11:56,000 | 我沒有問題 |
| 00:11:56,000 | 00:11:58,000 | 你現在最後全部都下架了 |
| 00:11:58,000 | 00:11:59,000 | 那我沒有意見 |
| 00:11:59,000 | 00:12:00,000 | 我只跟你說那20% |
| 00:12:00,000 | 00:12:01,000 | 到現在我還是找不到任何 |
| 00:12:01,000 | 00:12:04,000 | 因為歐盟只有低層有品下架 |
| 00:12:04,000 | 00:12:05,000 | 我們是比歐盟下架的 |
| 00:12:05,000 | 00:12:06,000 | 我知道 |
| 00:12:06,000 | 00:12:07,000 | 我講東你講西嘛 |
| 00:12:07,000 | 00:12:08,000 | 部長 |
| 00:12:08,000 | 00:12:10,000 | 部長我不是外行人 |
| 00:12:10,000 | 00:12:11,000 | 好不好 |
| 00:12:11,000 | 00:12:12,000 | 我不是外行人 |
| 00:12:12,000 | 00:12:14,000 | 我講東你講西 |
| 00:12:14,000 | 00:12:15,000 | 你講你全面下架 |
| 00:12:15,000 | 00:12:16,000 | 我沒意見 |
| 00:12:16,000 | 00:12:18,000 | 歐盟是低層下架 |
| 00:12:18,000 | 00:12:19,000 | 我也沒有意見 |
| 00:12:19,000 | 00:12:21,000 | 但是我要跟你們報告的是 |
| 00:12:21,000 | 00:12:22,000 | 20%的數據 |
| 00:12:22,000 | 00:12:24,000 | 沒有任何科學依據 |
| 00:12:24,000 | 00:12:26,000 | 我不懂為什麼行政機關 |
| 00:12:26,000 | 00:12:27,000 | 可以拿這個東西 |
| 00:12:27,000 | 00:12:30,000 | 然後來讓我們又多吃了好多天 |
| 00:12:30,000 | 00:12:31,000 | 我的意思在這裡 |
| 00:12:31,000 | 00:12:32,000 | 那也麻煩你們 |
| 00:12:32,000 | 00:12:34,000 | 那也麻煩法務部在 |
| 00:12:34,000 | 00:12:36,000 | 將來的稽查上面 |
| 00:12:36,000 | 00:12:37,000 | 偵查上面 |
| 00:12:37,000 | 00:12:38,000 | 能夠更積極的作為 |
| 00:12:38,000 | 00:12:39,000 | 好謝謝兩位部長 |
| 00:12:39,000 | 00:12:40,000 | 謝謝 |
| 00:12:40,000 | 00:12:41,000 | 謝謝 |