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郭國文 @ 第11屆第5會期財政委員會第23次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:03,000 | 委員好 |
| 00:00:03,000 | 00:00:06,000 | 部長好 我想要跟你探討一下今天的會議主題 |
| 00:00:06,000 | 00:00:09,000 | 關於居住減壓的房屋稅跟定價稅 |
| 00:00:09,000 | 00:00:13,000 | 來因應整個台灣這個少子化的問題 |
| 00:00:13,000 | 00:00:16,000 | 但行政院版本當中對外講得非常的好 |
| 00:00:16,000 | 00:00:21,000 | 就是說基本上會有百萬戶人這個收益 |
| 00:00:21,000 | 00:00:22,000 | 超過百萬戶人收益 |
| 00:00:22,000 | 00:00:26,000 | 而且這個稅減可能到50到75億 |
| 00:00:26,000 | 00:00:29,000 | 我真的不曉得這個部長這個新聞稿 |
| 00:00:29,000 | 00:00:32,000 | 可以寫這麼大的目標是怎麼寫出來的 |
| 00:00:32,000 | 00:00:36,000 | 如果對照一下行政院版本是得適當減免 |
| 00:00:36,000 | 00:00:38,000 | 得耶 不是因耶 |
| 00:00:38,000 | 00:00:40,000 | 那你怎麼算得出來呢 |
| 00:00:40,000 | 00:00:43,000 | 那你怎麼知道地方要不要減這個稅 |
| 00:00:43,000 | 00:00:46,000 | 那50到75億要怎麼算出來 |
| 00:00:46,000 | 00:00:48,000 | 百萬戶要怎麼形成 |
| 00:00:48,000 | 00:00:51,000 | 這是一個非常非常大的問號 |
| 00:00:51,000 | 00:00:56,000 | 部長一來我也稍微換算了一下 |
| 00:00:56,000 | 00:00:58,000 | 你透過稅減的方式當然是最好 |
| 00:00:58,000 | 00:01:03,000 | 這是減少這個地方政府甚至公所亂發獎金 |
| 00:01:03,000 | 00:01:05,000 | 沒有達到實質的成效 |
| 00:01:05,000 | 00:01:08,000 | 如果你去從你的相對的統計來說 |
| 00:01:08,000 | 00:01:13,000 | 從自用住宅當中的定價稅總共是71億 |
| 00:01:13,000 | 00:01:17,000 | 是善所有的定價稅當中的7.2% |
| 00:01:17,000 | 00:01:20,000 | 那平均的美戶的定價稅是1715元 |
| 00:01:20,000 | 00:01:23,000 | 台北市稍微高一點是5141元 |
| 00:01:23,000 | 00:01:28,000 | 新北桃園 新竹 台南 高雄平均在1000多 |
| 00:01:28,000 | 00:01:30,000 | 其他都在1000以下 |
| 00:01:30,000 | 00:01:33,000 | 也就是說單用住宅的這個部分 |
| 00:01:33,000 | 00:01:36,000 | 基本上的總共的部分 |
| 00:01:36,000 | 00:01:40,000 | 你能夠減免它負擔的大概是約略這個區間 |
| 00:01:40,000 | 00:01:44,000 | 那另外你從自用住宅的部分 |
| 00:01:44,000 | 00:01:46,000 | 總體的稅額是113億 |
| 00:01:46,000 | 00:01:50,000 | 占全部房屋稅的大概11% |
| 00:01:50,000 | 00:01:53,000 | 平均大概3500 |
| 00:01:53,000 | 00:01:56,000 | 那簡單講你如果把全國單一住宅 |
| 00:01:56,000 | 00:02:00,000 | 最多的符合資格的能夠少多少的絕對額 |
| 00:02:00,000 | 00:02:01,000 | 約莫是多少 |
| 00:02:01,000 | 00:02:05,000 | 是定價稅加房屋稅大概是5000元 |
| 00:02:05,000 | 00:02:10,000 | 我不曉得你這個50到75億是怎麼估出來的 |
| 00:02:10,000 | 00:02:13,000 | 這新聞稿不要寫得太誇張 |
| 00:02:13,000 | 00:02:15,000 | 你如果要達到這個目標的話 |
| 00:02:15,000 | 00:02:16,000 | 你要改什麼 |
| 00:02:16,000 | 00:02:18,000 | 也就是說得適當減免 |
| 00:02:18,000 | 00:02:21,000 | 應改成 應減免 |
| 00:02:21,000 | 00:02:23,000 | 很多委員提出來是這樣子 |
| 00:02:23,000 | 00:02:27,000 | 你這樣居住減壓的這個因應少子化政策 |
| 00:02:27,000 | 00:02:29,000 | 才能達到這個良法美意 |
| 00:02:29,000 | 00:02:32,000 | 部長你嘛說一下 解釋一下 |
| 00:02:32,000 | 00:02:35,000 | 好 謝謝 謝謝委員 |
| 00:02:35,000 | 00:02:37,000 | 在這裡我們可以看到 |
| 00:02:37,000 | 00:02:41,000 | 在自住裡面總共有651萬 |
| 00:02:41,000 | 00:02:43,000 | 以115年有651萬戶 |
| 00:02:43,000 | 00:02:49,000 | 那單一自住裡面就有318萬件 |
| 00:02:49,000 | 00:02:51,000 | 所以佔的比例是大概有 |
| 00:02:51,000 | 00:02:55,000 | 單一自住佔了48.8%這樣的一個金額 |
| 00:02:55,000 | 00:02:56,000 | 那單一自住裡面 |
| 00:02:56,000 | 00:02:58,000 | 如果他是婚喻家庭的話 |
| 00:02:58,000 | 00:03:00,000 | 那我們當然是用一個 |
| 00:03:00,000 | 00:03:02,000 | 就是說我們先去做這樣一個估算 |
| 00:03:02,000 | 00:03:03,000 | 先是做一個 |
| 00:03:03,000 | 00:03:05,000 | 我們相信呢 |
| 00:03:05,000 | 00:03:08,000 | 我們授權地方政府去做相關的一些減免 |
| 00:03:08,000 | 00:03:11,000 | 地方政府也會意識到少子女化 |
| 00:03:11,000 | 00:03:14,000 | 以及在他們自治條例裡面去做相關規範 |
| 00:03:14,000 | 00:03:16,000 | 所以我們有一個區間 |
| 00:03:16,000 | 00:03:19,000 | 我們以一個最大的額度的估算 |
| 00:03:19,000 | 00:03:23,000 | 少子化本來就應該是全國共同的名字 |
| 00:03:23,000 | 00:03:26,000 | 是國家跟家庭 也是中央跟地方 |
| 00:03:26,000 | 00:03:29,000 | 可是問題你如果是有這麼大的期待的話 |
| 00:03:29,000 | 00:03:31,000 | 你就條文上不要把它用得 |
| 00:03:31,000 | 00:03:34,000 | 就用因就好啦 對不對 |
| 00:03:34,000 | 00:03:36,000 | 我是想說這個條文在討論 |
| 00:03:36,000 | 00:03:38,000 | 我想說先跟您對話啦 |
| 00:03:38,000 | 00:03:39,000 | 是是是 好不好 |
| 00:03:39,000 | 00:03:40,000 | 好 |
| 00:03:40,000 | 00:03:42,000 | 這個應該是要從這個角度 |
| 00:03:42,000 | 00:03:45,000 | 你才能貫徹這個中央的政策嘛 |
| 00:03:45,000 | 00:03:47,000 | 那你授權的條款空間越大 |
| 00:03:47,000 | 00:03:50,000 | 你達到的目標基本上就越不可能 |
| 00:03:50,000 | 00:03:53,000 | 那另外本席要預留多一點時間 |
| 00:03:53,000 | 00:03:56,000 | 來跟您對話有關這個新清安的問題 |
| 00:03:56,000 | 00:03:58,000 | 好 新清安問題 |
| 00:03:58,000 | 00:04:00,000 | 你現在有這個新的版本出現 |
| 00:04:00,000 | 00:04:01,000 | 我們討論的非常多 |
| 00:04:01,000 | 00:04:03,000 | 新清安的問題 |
| 00:04:03,000 | 00:04:04,000 | 我總結來說 |
| 00:04:04,000 | 00:04:05,000 | 它最大的問題 |
| 00:04:05,000 | 00:04:07,000 | 如果它今天都自助的話 |
| 00:04:07,000 | 00:04:09,000 | 不會有什麼問題 |
| 00:04:09,000 | 00:04:11,000 | 問題就是在它的投資行為 |
| 00:04:11,000 | 00:04:15,000 | 也就是說會造成央行第七次的 |
| 00:04:15,000 | 00:04:18,000 | 強烈的信用管制的一個很重要的關鍵 |
| 00:04:18,000 | 00:04:22,000 | 就是政府的政策左右互搏的結果 |
| 00:04:22,000 | 00:04:24,000 | 那你現在改了 |
| 00:04:24,000 | 00:04:26,000 | 改成這個版本 |
| 00:04:26,000 | 00:04:28,000 | 新的新清安版本出來之後 |
| 00:04:28,000 | 00:04:30,000 | 這個所謂新清安3.0 |
| 00:04:30,000 | 00:04:31,000 | 好 我們就看啊 |
| 00:04:31,000 | 00:04:32,000 | 我們就看啊 |
| 00:04:32,000 | 00:04:34,000 | 這新清安2.0的部分呢 |
| 00:04:34,000 | 00:04:36,000 | 你曾經在立法院的壓力 |
| 00:04:36,000 | 00:04:37,000 | 跟輿論的壓力當中 |
| 00:04:37,000 | 00:04:39,000 | 有去查違規的案件 |
| 00:04:39,000 | 00:04:42,000 | 高達10449件 |
| 00:04:42,000 | 00:04:45,000 | 違規率高達6.5% |
| 00:04:45,000 | 00:04:48,000 | 那違規的部分出租營業跟人頭 |
| 00:04:48,000 | 00:04:50,000 | 人頭的部分還比較少 |
| 00:04:50,000 | 00:04:51,000 | 相對這三項當中 |
| 00:04:51,000 | 00:04:53,000 | 是不是還有其他的 |
| 00:04:53,000 | 00:04:54,000 | 老實講 |
| 00:04:54,000 | 00:04:56,000 | 相對而言 我認為寬鬆 |
| 00:04:56,000 | 00:04:59,000 | 但是我想要問你一件事情 |
| 00:04:59,000 | 00:05:01,000 | 未來的清清安3.0 |
| 00:05:01,000 | 00:05:02,000 | 類似的違規出現 |
| 00:05:02,000 | 00:05:04,000 | 違規事件還會不會再出現 |
| 00:05:04,000 | 00:05:06,000 | 你有沒有把握 |
| 00:05:06,000 | 00:05:08,000 | 把10449件降為0 |
| 00:05:08,000 | 00:05:10,000 | 有沒有可能 |
| 00:05:10,000 | 00:05:12,000 | 跟委員報告 |
| 00:05:12,000 | 00:05:14,000 | 新清安就是2.0的時候 |
| 00:05:14,000 | 00:05:18,000 | 其實它違規的是2579件 |
| 00:05:18,000 | 00:05:20,000 | 那1萬多件包含是 |
| 00:05:20,000 | 00:05:22,000 | 原來的清安的1.0的部分 |
| 00:05:22,000 | 00:05:24,000 | 好 2500多件 |
| 00:05:24,000 | 00:05:26,000 | 那我跟委員報告 |
| 00:05:26,000 | 00:05:28,000 | 我們在其實2.0執行的時候 |
| 00:05:28,000 | 00:05:30,000 | 第一個我們後來再 |
| 00:05:30,000 | 00:05:32,000 | 就改了一生只有一次 |
| 00:05:32,000 | 00:05:35,000 | 第二個要提自住的切結書 |
| 00:05:35,000 | 00:05:37,000 | 因為在一開始實施的時候 |
| 00:05:37,000 | 00:05:38,000 | 所以你有把握 |
| 00:05:38,000 | 00:05:40,000 | 清清安3.0就不會再有違規事件是不是 |
| 00:05:40,000 | 00:05:42,000 | 我們不是用保證的 |
| 00:05:42,000 | 00:05:44,000 | 我們是用加強查核 |
| 00:05:44,000 | 00:05:47,000 | 一定會加強去查核 |
| 00:05:47,000 | 00:05:49,000 | 制度上的源頭的設計 |
| 00:05:49,000 | 00:05:51,000 | 就是要阻絕有可能的落洞 |
| 00:05:51,000 | 00:05:53,000 | 結果你還是要透過事後的加強查核 |
| 00:05:53,000 | 00:05:55,000 | 才有補強的空間 |
| 00:05:55,000 | 00:05:56,000 | 那不就是制度設計 |
| 00:05:56,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 還有它需要再精進的空間嗎 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:06:00,000 | 不是嗎 |
| 00:06:00,000 | 00:06:02,000 | 你沒有把握嘛 |
| 00:06:02,000 | 00:06:04,000 | 要意識要告訴他們 |
| 00:06:04,000 | 00:06:06,000 | 第一個清清安為什麼大家會這麼重視 |
| 00:06:06,000 | 00:06:08,000 | 不是反對新清安 |
| 00:06:08,000 | 00:06:10,000 | 是反對新清安的投資行為 |
| 00:06:10,000 | 00:06:12,000 | 會造成房市的波動 |
| 00:06:12,000 | 00:06:14,000 | 還有信用管制的一個失衡 |
| 00:06:14,000 | 00:06:16,000 | 這是第一個問題 |
| 00:06:16,000 | 00:06:18,000 | 好 第一個問題 |
| 00:06:18,000 | 00:06:20,000 | 違規的事件可能會造成這種結果 |
| 00:06:20,000 | 00:06:22,000 | 還有第二個你只抓這些違規 |
| 00:06:22,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 你有沒有辦法處理 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:26,000 | 你有沒有辦法處理它這個投資的行為 |
| 00:06:26,000 | 00:06:28,000 | 你看喔 |
| 00:06:28,000 | 00:06:30,000 | 新清安當中到2014年當中 |
| 00:06:30,000 | 00:06:32,000 | 高達2893件 |
| 00:06:32,000 | 00:06:34,000 | 其中是1835件 |
| 00:06:34,000 | 00:06:36,000 | 因為轉售而獲利100萬元 |
| 00:06:36,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 其中有5件不到2個月 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:40,000 | 轉售大賺500萬元 |
| 00:06:40,000 | 00:06:42,000 | 簡單的講 |
| 00:06:42,000 | 00:06:44,000 | 它只要自備款139萬 |
| 00:06:44,000 | 00:06:46,000 | 月繳7000多元 |
| 00:06:46,000 | 00:06:48,000 | 繳2個月就可以獲利555萬 |
| 00:06:48,000 | 00:06:50,000 | 在5年之內 |
| 00:06:50,000 | 00:06:52,000 | 雖然我們兩稅合一 |
| 00:06:52,000 | 00:06:54,000 | 有比較高的稅率來遏止 |
| 00:06:54,000 | 00:06:56,000 | 這樣的交易成為 |
| 00:06:56,000 | 00:06:58,000 | 增加它的交易成本 |
| 00:06:58,000 | 00:07:00,000 | 但是新清安的目的 |
| 00:07:00,000 | 00:07:02,000 | 部長 |
| 00:07:02,000 | 00:07:04,000 | 新清安的目的是什麼 |
| 00:07:04,000 | 00:07:06,000 | 是自住嘛不是嗎 |
| 00:07:06,000 | 00:07:08,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:07:08,000 | 00:07:10,000 | 自住的定義是第幾年 |
| 00:07:10,000 | 00:07:12,000 | 財政部 |
| 00:07:12,000 | 00:07:14,000 | 什麼自住 |
| 00:07:14,000 | 00:07:16,000 | 第幾年 |
| 00:07:16,000 | 00:07:18,000 | 第六年嘛 |
| 00:07:18,000 | 00:07:20,000 | 才回歸稅率10%嘛 |
| 00:07:20,000 | 00:07:22,000 | 就簡單的講 |
| 00:07:22,000 | 00:07:24,000 | 你對新清安的目的是自住 |
| 00:07:24,000 | 00:07:26,000 | 它的目標是10% |
| 00:07:26,000 | 00:07:28,000 | 也就是說在5年之內的交易 |
| 00:07:28,000 | 00:07:30,000 | 只要符合兩稅合一 |
| 00:07:30,000 | 00:07:32,000 | 基本上都不是新清安可以容許的範圍 |
| 00:07:32,000 | 00:07:34,000 | 但是你去看 |
| 00:07:34,000 | 00:07:36,000 | 你的違規行為 |
| 00:07:36,000 | 00:07:38,000 | 你的違規行為當中 |
| 00:07:38,000 | 00:07:40,000 | 你去查到的 |
| 00:07:40,000 | 00:07:42,000 | 使用5年了 |
| 00:07:42,000 | 00:07:44,000 | 總共基本上只會平均 |
| 00:07:44,000 | 00:07:46,000 | 追回來利息的補貼 |
| 00:07:46,000 | 00:07:48,000 | 1萬多件包括舊清安 |
| 00:07:48,000 | 00:07:50,000 | 收回金的2億5千多萬當中 |
| 00:07:50,000 | 00:07:52,000 | 只是平均一件的2.3萬 |
| 00:07:52,000 | 00:07:54,000 | 各位 |
| 00:07:54,000 | 00:07:56,000 | 你去想一想 |
| 00:07:56,000 | 00:07:58,000 | 新清安在5年之內不符合 |
| 00:07:58,000 | 00:08:00,000 | 自住原則的投機炒作行為 |
| 00:08:00,000 | 00:08:02,000 | 一來 |
| 00:08:02,000 | 00:08:04,000 | 沒有禁止轉售 |
| 00:08:04,000 | 00:08:06,000 | 二來沒有罰則 |
| 00:08:06,000 | 00:08:08,000 | 三來獲利沒有損失 |
| 00:08:08,000 | 00:08:10,000 | 也簡單的講說 |
| 00:08:10,000 | 00:08:12,000 | 轉售無禁止無罰則 |
| 00:08:12,000 | 00:08:14,000 | 獲利無損三無的階段 |
| 00:08:14,000 | 00:08:16,000 | 你三無的階段 |
| 00:08:16,000 | 00:08:18,000 | 你改成新清安3.0 |
| 00:08:18,000 | 00:08:20,000 | 他會不會轉售 |
| 00:08:20,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 我再請問一下部長你有沒有把握 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:24,000 | 財產權 |
| 00:08:24,000 | 00:08:26,000 | 沒有辦法 |
| 00:08:26,000 | 00:08:28,000 | 委員在2.0的時候 |
| 00:08:28,000 | 00:08:30,000 | 有這樣的一個情況 |
| 00:08:30,000 | 00:08:32,000 | 3.0已經屬於第一個 |
| 00:08:32,000 | 00:08:34,000 | 我們告訴他你只有一生 |
| 00:08:34,000 | 00:08:36,000 | 沒有就是一生只有一次 |
| 00:08:36,000 | 00:08:38,000 | 我們在代管會去連征中心 |
| 00:08:38,000 | 00:08:40,000 | 但是他照樣會轉售 |
| 00:08:40,000 | 00:08:42,000 | 他要轉售第一個就有稅 |
| 00:08:42,000 | 00:08:44,000 | 那個房地合一稅 |
| 00:08:44,000 | 00:08:46,000 | 你這個大的方向 |
| 00:08:46,000 | 00:08:48,000 | 當中你寫現在就應該 |
| 00:08:48,000 | 00:08:50,000 | 符合自住本息剛剛就請教你了 |
| 00:08:50,000 | 00:08:52,000 | 第二個就是有差價 |
| 00:08:52,000 | 00:08:54,000 | 除了稅之外我直接了當跟你講 |
| 00:08:54,000 | 00:08:56,000 | 你在這個政策上他違反了自住原則 |
| 00:08:56,000 | 00:08:58,000 | 你就應該適當的行政 |
| 00:08:58,000 | 00:09:00,000 | 處理啦也就是說你這個 |
| 00:09:00,000 | 00:09:02,000 | 規範當中要加強這個 |
| 00:09:02,000 | 00:09:04,000 | 違反這個政策的規範啦不是嗎 |
| 00:09:04,000 | 00:09:06,000 | 是 |
| 00:09:06,000 | 00:09:08,000 | 有道理啊你要去思考這個問題 |
| 00:09:08,000 | 00:09:10,000 | 但是問題你3.0當中 |
| 00:09:10,000 | 00:09:12,000 | 有沒有這樣的規範部長 |
| 00:09:12,000 | 00:09:14,000 | 沒有 |
| 00:09:14,000 | 00:09:16,000 | 你如果違規的話會追回你的利息 |
| 00:09:16,000 | 00:09:18,000 | 第二個追回利息的補貼 |
| 00:09:18,000 | 00:09:20,000 | 第二個 |
| 00:09:20,000 | 00:09:22,000 | 那個貸款條件會重新 |
| 00:09:22,000 | 00:09:24,000 | 重新合理 |
| 00:09:24,000 | 00:09:26,000 | 你還是只有利息的追回而已嘛 |
| 00:09:26,000 | 00:09:28,000 | 他一樣可以獲利了結 |
| 00:09:28,000 | 00:09:30,000 | 獲利無損啊他一樣可以 |
| 00:09:30,000 | 00:09:32,000 | 照樣投資啊他一樣可以 |
| 00:09:32,000 | 00:09:34,000 | 造成房市的這個 |
| 00:09:34,000 | 00:09:36,000 | 波動嘛對不對 |
| 00:09:36,000 | 00:09:38,000 | 你還是會造成那個跟房市 |
| 00:09:38,000 | 00:09:40,000 | 整個信用管制的左右互搏啊 |
| 00:09:40,000 | 00:09:42,000 | 你沒有改變這個問題嘛 |
| 00:09:42,000 | 00:09:44,000 | 委員房屋 |
| 00:09:44,000 | 00:09:46,000 | 買了以後我們第一個我們 |
| 00:09:46,000 | 00:09:48,000 | 已經告訴你醫生你只能戴一次 |
| 00:09:48,000 | 00:09:50,000 | 那你戴的人你要 |
| 00:09:50,000 | 00:09:52,000 | 你要轉售獲利 |
| 00:09:52,000 | 00:09:54,000 | 是有稅的問題 |
| 00:09:54,000 | 00:09:56,000 | 要克服你的 |
| 00:09:56,000 | 00:09:58,000 | 年輕人提早進入房市讓他 |
| 00:09:58,000 | 00:10:00,000 | 減少利息的成本而擁有 |
| 00:10:00,000 | 00:10:02,000 | 自住的房屋 |
| 00:10:02,000 | 00:10:04,000 | 自住的房屋沒有錯 |
| 00:10:04,000 | 00:10:06,000 | 那何以你不能把它 |
| 00:10:06,000 | 00:10:08,000 | 強化說符合你 |
| 00:10:08,000 | 00:10:10,000 | 你不去想一想 |
| 00:10:10,000 | 00:10:12,000 | 這個部分我們都想過 |
| 00:10:12,000 | 00:10:14,000 | 你找各部會來開過會 |
| 00:10:14,000 | 00:10:16,000 | 謝謝 |
| 00:10:16,000 | 00:10:18,000 | 謝謝國會委員 |
| 00:10:18,000 | 00:10:20,000 | 你只有追回利息沒意思嘛 |
| 00:10:20,000 | 00:10:22,000 | 謝謝委員 |
| 00:10:22,000 | 00:10:24,000 | 來 |
| 00:10:24,000 | 00:10:26,000 | 這下一位請到會員委員質詢 |
| 00:10:26,000 | 00:10:28,000 | 請到會員委員質詢 |
| 00:10:28,000 | 00:10:30,000 | 請到會員委員質詢 |
| 00:10:30,000 | 00:10:32,000 | 請到會員委員質詢 |
| 00:10:32,000 | 00:10:34,000 | 請到會員委員質詢 |
| 00:10:34,000 | 00:10:36,000 | 請到會員委員質詢 |
| 00:10:36,000 | 00:10:38,000 | 謝謝 |
| 00:10:38,000 | 00:10:40,000 | 謝謝主席 |
| 00:10:40,000 | 00:10:42,000 | 請部長 |