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洪毓祥 @ 第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第22次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:10,000 | 好 謝謝主席 |
| 00:00:10,000 | 00:00:13,000 | 有請這個經濟部公務長 |
| 00:00:13,000 | 00:00:20,000 | 來 副王早 |
| 00:00:20,000 | 00:00:25,000 | 我想前面的這個討論大家關心的都一樣 |
| 00:00:25,000 | 00:00:30,000 | 我大概就針對院板提修正動議 |
| 00:00:30,000 | 00:00:32,000 | 我覺得沒有再提特別法 |
| 00:00:32,000 | 00:00:37,000 | 因為其他的大方向我大概遵照其他委員的一個版本 |
| 00:00:37,000 | 00:00:41,000 | 現在主要的問題我是覺得大概就這幾個 |
| 00:00:41,000 | 00:00:46,000 | 其中8.9條的話它是由核備 |
| 00:00:46,000 | 00:00:48,000 | 本來是原法你們是核備 |
| 00:00:48,000 | 00:00:49,000 | 現在改成核定 |
| 00:00:49,000 | 00:00:52,000 | 第10條是最大的concern |
| 00:00:52,000 | 00:00:55,000 | 要求一定契約容量以上用戶自行設置 |
| 00:00:55,000 | 00:00:58,000 | 但這個語意非常的不詳 |
| 00:00:58,000 | 00:01:01,000 | 因為就是一定的這個契約容量用戶 |
| 00:01:01,000 | 00:01:06,000 | 當然第24條當然就是對位置設置或設備不符合裁罰 |
| 00:01:06,000 | 00:01:10,000 | 我大概針對這幾條比較有一些意見的一個看法 |
| 00:01:10,000 | 00:01:12,000 | 那我覺得這個大概就是 |
| 00:01:12,000 | 00:01:15,000 | 到底我們在修這個第10條 |
| 00:01:15,000 | 00:01:17,000 | 其實它有它的政策的目的 |
| 00:01:17,000 | 00:01:18,000 | 這個到底是什麼 |
| 00:01:18,000 | 00:01:21,000 | 但是從這個法條這樣下來的話 |
| 00:01:21,000 | 00:01:24,000 | 就是你的政策的目的性 |
| 00:01:24,000 | 00:01:26,000 | 到底我們是要先處理缺電 |
| 00:01:26,000 | 00:01:28,000 | 還是尖峰用電要降載 |
| 00:01:28,000 | 00:01:31,000 | 還是我區域電網某些的優色不足 |
| 00:01:31,000 | 00:01:34,000 | 還是是契約的備援 |
| 00:01:34,000 | 00:01:36,000 | 我大概列了6個影響的可能性 |
| 00:01:36,000 | 00:01:38,000 | 再來你的影響的對象 |
| 00:01:38,000 | 00:01:43,000 | 像你第9條在你能管列管的大概我去統計大概4900多家 |
| 00:01:43,000 | 00:01:46,000 | 然後第10條因為你達一定契約容量 |
| 00:01:46,000 | 00:01:50,000 | 那剛剛如果用部長回答5MW大概是700多 |
| 00:01:50,000 | 00:01:54,000 | 那契約的成本執行的可行性 |
| 00:01:54,000 | 00:01:56,000 | 也有其他委員提到 |
| 00:01:56,000 | 00:01:58,000 | 我一看我就覺得說 |
| 00:01:58,000 | 00:02:03,000 | 其他的不管是半導體自通訊AI資料傳產醫院學校 |
| 00:02:03,000 | 00:02:05,000 | 這些是不是都要納入 |
| 00:02:05,000 | 00:02:08,000 | 因為它可能也是一定契約容量的一個用電的一個大戶 |
| 00:02:08,000 | 00:02:12,000 | 那程序的正當性還有替代的一個方案 |
| 00:02:12,000 | 00:02:15,000 | 這個大概是我看這第10條 |
| 00:02:15,000 | 00:02:17,000 | 我覺得會有這些問題 |
| 00:02:17,000 | 00:02:19,000 | 那我從因為時間有限 |
| 00:02:19,000 | 00:02:22,000 | 就是說假設你現在的話 |
| 00:02:22,000 | 00:02:24,000 | 我們現在是核備改核定 |
| 00:02:24,000 | 00:02:27,000 | 那你在第9條所列管的 |
| 00:02:27,000 | 00:02:29,000 | 這個4900家的 |
| 00:02:29,000 | 00:02:30,000 | 這樣子結門 |
| 00:02:30,000 | 00:02:32,000 | 到底以後是自己決定 |
| 00:02:32,000 | 00:02:34,000 | 還是經濟部要批准 |
| 00:02:34,000 | 00:02:35,000 | 而業前是核備 |
| 00:02:35,000 | 00:02:37,000 | 現在是核定 |
| 00:02:37,000 | 00:02:39,000 | 因為當初就是 |
| 00:02:39,000 | 00:02:42,000 | 核備已遇很含糊 |
| 00:02:42,000 | 00:02:43,000 | 到底是 |
| 00:02:43,000 | 00:02:46,000 | 核備有什麼失敗的案件還是什麼 |
| 00:02:46,000 | 00:02:47,000 | 基本上 |
| 00:02:47,000 | 00:02:49,000 | 假設不與核備的話 |
| 00:02:49,000 | 00:02:51,000 | 也就是不與核定的意思 |
| 00:02:51,000 | 00:02:52,000 | 對啊 |
| 00:02:52,000 | 00:02:56,000 | 所以說你改這個好像也沒有什麼特別意義 |
| 00:02:56,000 | 00:02:57,000 | 就是講清楚 |
| 00:02:57,000 | 00:02:59,000 | 就是一定要核定 |
| 00:02:59,000 | 00:03:01,000 | 不要讓羽翼模糊 |
| 00:03:01,000 | 00:03:03,000 | 讓業者他們不知道說 |
| 00:03:03,000 | 00:03:06,000 | 這個好像去報備就好了 |
| 00:03:06,000 | 00:03:07,000 | 不是 |
| 00:03:07,000 | 00:03:09,000 | 你不與核備就是不與核定 |
| 00:03:09,000 | 00:03:12,000 | 因為定的管理會比較強烈 |
| 00:03:12,000 | 00:03:14,000 | 理論上嘛 |
| 00:03:14,000 | 00:03:16,000 | 自言上是比較強烈 |
| 00:03:16,000 | 00:03:19,000 | 因為這樣子下一個我覺得害怕 |
| 00:03:19,000 | 00:03:21,000 | 因為假設我是企業主卻說 |
| 00:03:21,000 | 00:03:23,000 | 那企業主管機關是可以要求 |
| 00:03:23,000 | 00:03:24,000 | 我要提高目標 |
| 00:03:24,000 | 00:03:26,000 | 換設備或改製程 |
| 00:03:26,000 | 00:03:28,000 | 不然你就不核定 |
| 00:03:28,000 | 00:03:32,000 | 你核定的標準期限變更程序這些 |
| 00:03:32,000 | 00:03:34,000 | 你一定會告訴我這個列入執法 |
| 00:03:34,000 | 00:03:36,000 | 但是我現在就很恐慌 |
| 00:03:36,000 | 00:03:37,000 | 這是一個問題 |
| 00:03:37,000 | 00:03:39,000 | 你們可以書面回答我 |
| 00:03:39,000 | 00:03:40,000 | 因為時間有限 |
| 00:03:40,000 | 00:03:41,000 | 因為我覺得這個是 |
| 00:03:41,000 | 00:03:43,000 | 因為如果核備核定沒什麼的話 |
| 00:03:43,000 | 00:03:45,000 | 我其實覺得核備 |
| 00:03:45,000 | 00:03:47,000 | 那你再強烈的抽查也行 |
| 00:03:47,000 | 00:03:49,000 | 再來你的第十條 |
| 00:03:49,000 | 00:03:51,000 | 到底我們是要解決什麼問題 |
| 00:03:51,000 | 00:03:53,000 | 我覺得有點像把這種發電 |
| 00:03:53,000 | 00:03:57,000 | 這種給外部丟到企業去 |
| 00:03:57,000 | 00:03:59,000 | 給予企業責任化這樣子 |
| 00:03:59,000 | 00:04:00,000 | 會不會 |
| 00:04:00,000 | 00:04:02,000 | 八五委員因為他是用電大戶 |
| 00:04:02,000 | 00:04:06,000 | 他好歹對於這個電力上的韌性 |
| 00:04:06,000 | 00:04:08,000 | 也要負擔一些責任 |
| 00:04:08,000 | 00:04:09,000 | 要不然的話 |
| 00:04:09,000 | 00:04:11,000 | 假如發生這個意外事後 |
| 00:04:12,000 | 00:04:14,000 | 所以你覺得是要解決他 |
| 00:04:14,000 | 00:04:16,000 | 企業社會責任的問題 |
| 00:04:16,000 | 00:04:18,000 | 不是要處理缺電 |
| 00:04:18,000 | 00:04:20,000 | 韌性的問題 |
| 00:04:20,000 | 00:04:22,000 | 因為他也是保障他自己 |
| 00:04:22,000 | 00:04:24,000 | 所以是企業自己的韌性的問題 |
| 00:04:24,000 | 00:04:27,000 | 這個國外大概也有這樣的 |
| 00:04:27,000 | 00:04:29,000 | 相關的一些規範 |
| 00:04:29,000 | 00:04:32,000 | 因為我覺得這個真的要想清楚 |
| 00:04:32,000 | 00:04:34,000 | 因為這幾個問題不一樣 |
| 00:04:34,000 | 00:04:37,000 | 如果你是台電整個在供應經濟發展 |
| 00:04:37,000 | 00:04:38,000 | 有缺電對不對 |
| 00:04:38,000 | 00:04:42,000 | 所以我們希望企業自主設備發電 |
| 00:04:42,000 | 00:04:44,000 | 甚至是除能 |
| 00:04:44,000 | 00:04:45,000 | 這個地方的話 |
| 00:04:45,000 | 00:04:47,000 | 我們就要去統計你大概缺多少 |
| 00:04:47,000 | 00:04:50,000 | 區域電網的擁設這也是一個 |
| 00:04:50,000 | 00:04:51,000 | 因為你不能全國 |
| 00:04:51,000 | 00:04:53,000 | 鄉村跟都市跟產業 |
| 00:04:53,000 | 00:04:57,000 | 他可能整個用電的擁設程度是不一樣 |
| 00:04:57,000 | 00:04:59,000 | 如果你是巔峰的調度 |
| 00:04:59,000 | 00:05:03,000 | 那巔峰調度你要求的是可驗證的降載量 |
| 00:05:03,000 | 00:05:06,000 | 這些東西就是你在這個地方 |
| 00:05:06,000 | 00:05:09,000 | 就是說我們背後一定有個動機 |
| 00:05:09,000 | 00:05:11,000 | 然後我要解決什麼樣的問題再下去 |
| 00:05:11,000 | 00:05:14,000 | 你不可能一個東西解決同時的問題 |
| 00:05:14,000 | 00:05:16,000 | 那如果你是講備援 |
| 00:05:16,000 | 00:05:17,000 | 我如果是講備援 |
| 00:05:17,000 | 00:05:20,000 | 我企業可能要的是可靠度跟穩壓 |
| 00:05:20,000 | 00:05:23,000 | 他可能也不是電量所謂的問題 |
| 00:05:23,000 | 00:05:26,000 | 因為在第十條我覺得很恐怖的是 |
| 00:05:26,000 | 00:05:29,000 | 因為現在節能的設備這邊來講 |
| 00:05:29,000 | 00:05:32,000 | 相對的其實不會比發電設備便宜 |
| 00:05:32,000 | 00:05:35,000 | 你現在是要求他是設發電 |
| 00:05:35,000 | 00:05:37,000 | 跟儲能 |
| 00:05:37,000 | 00:05:39,000 | 而且你是用一種核電 |
| 00:05:39,000 | 00:05:41,000 | 然後你如果又不達到一定的數量設置 |
| 00:05:41,000 | 00:05:43,000 | 又會有罰則 |
| 00:05:43,000 | 00:05:46,000 | 我覺得是不是可以在這邊再思考一下 |
| 00:05:46,000 | 00:05:48,000 | 因為你一定會推到執法去 |
| 00:05:48,000 | 00:05:50,000 | 但是現在就是我覺得這個大方向 |
| 00:05:50,000 | 00:05:53,000 | 是不是可以用成是比較鼓勵的一個方式 |
| 00:05:55,000 | 00:05:57,000 | 而且你現在是急嘛 |
| 00:05:57,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 有些人他可能是發電 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:05:59,000 | 有些人是儲能 |
| 00:05:59,000 | 00:06:02,000 | 假設我現在是企業用電大戶的話 |
| 00:06:02,000 | 00:06:04,000 | 其實我在需量反應的話 |
| 00:06:04,000 | 00:06:07,000 | 我其實搞不好我是要買儲能的設備就好 |
| 00:06:07,000 | 00:06:11,000 | 然後我用這個離峰的東西去做儲能 |
| 00:06:11,000 | 00:06:14,000 | 那我到尖峰再放電出來 |
| 00:06:14,000 | 00:06:16,000 | 讓我的企業的用電控制 |
| 00:06:16,000 | 00:06:19,000 | 所以我們會讓發電跟儲能之間有一些彈性 |
| 00:06:19,000 | 00:06:21,000 | 因為你是用擠啊 |
| 00:06:21,000 | 00:06:25,000 | 所以我就覺得很恐怖 |
| 00:06:25,000 | 00:06:28,000 | 另外有些他可能認為說 |
| 00:06:28,000 | 00:06:30,000 | 我儲能很貴 |
| 00:06:30,000 | 00:06:32,000 | 所以我可能買柴油發電機 |
| 00:06:32,000 | 00:06:35,000 | 或是接在深圳的可能比較便宜 |
| 00:06:35,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 容許企業端他有個彈性他可以調配 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:40,000 | 因為你的法條寫的是擠啊 |
| 00:06:40,000 | 00:06:43,000 | 擠的話他是可以調配嘛 |
| 00:06:43,000 | 00:06:44,000 | 就是不同的企業因為他 |
| 00:06:44,000 | 00:06:46,000 | 擠就表示我M的啊 |
| 00:06:46,000 | 00:06:47,000 | 我兩個都要有 |
| 00:06:47,000 | 00:06:48,000 | 我發電要有 |
| 00:06:48,000 | 00:06:49,000 | 節能也要有 |
| 00:06:49,000 | 00:06:53,000 | 不是他的比例容許他有一個調整的空間 |
| 00:06:53,000 | 00:06:56,000 | 不是說一定就是5050這樣不會 |
| 00:06:56,000 | 00:07:01,000 | 因為有些企業他覺得他的儲能設備可以高一點 |
| 00:07:01,000 | 00:07:04,000 | 所以我是覺得我是會好一點 |
| 00:07:04,000 | 00:07:05,000 | 這個 |
| 00:07:05,000 | 00:07:07,000 | 我覺得你可以去考慮 |
| 00:07:07,000 | 00:07:08,000 | 因為這個是問題 |
| 00:07:08,000 | 00:07:11,000 | 然後這是少數大型企業的問題 |
| 00:07:11,000 | 00:07:13,000 | 還是我們醫院學校 |
| 00:07:13,000 | 00:07:15,000 | 甚至我們要鼓勵發展的資料中心 |
| 00:07:15,000 | 00:07:17,000 | 傳產這些都要全部納進去 |
| 00:07:17,000 | 00:07:20,000 | 因為剛剛很多委員院一定企業容電 |
| 00:07:20,000 | 00:07:21,000 | 這到底是多少 |
| 00:07:21,000 | 00:07:24,000 | 影響多少電號多少法人 |
| 00:07:24,000 | 00:07:27,000 | 當初公共法你們就說這個會影響8000家 |
| 00:07:27,000 | 00:07:30,000 | 我這個看起來影響也是750幾家 |
| 00:07:30,000 | 00:07:31,000 | 700多家 |
| 00:07:31,000 | 00:07:34,000 | 對啊那搞不好以後還會再更多不知道 |
| 00:07:34,000 | 00:07:36,000 | 因為經濟發展之後對不對 |
| 00:07:36,000 | 00:07:37,000 | 他可能會更多 |
| 00:07:37,000 | 00:07:40,000 | 然後他儲能完之後能不能賣什麼等等 |
| 00:07:40,000 | 00:07:42,000 | 我覺得這個都是很多的問題 |
| 00:07:42,000 | 00:07:46,000 | 所以我是覺得在第十條這個大方向可能要改一下 |
| 00:07:46,000 | 00:07:48,000 | 那再來就第十條這邊 |
| 00:07:48,000 | 00:07:52,000 | 因為你第十條是後面的第三第二新增進來的 |
| 00:07:52,000 | 00:07:55,000 | 那是不是有重新公開徵詢過 |
| 00:07:55,000 | 00:07:57,000 | 你講第十條是不是 |
| 00:07:57,000 | 00:07:58,000 | 對 |
| 00:07:58,000 | 00:08:02,000 | 我們有剛剛有提到就是我們有辦過一些座談會 |
| 00:08:02,000 | 00:08:07,000 | 那座談會可不可以給我一些他們的廠商的一些的反應的意見的資料 |
| 00:08:07,000 | 00:08:08,000 | 我覺得要再多辦幾場 |
| 00:08:08,000 | 00:08:11,000 | 因為現在廠商跟我反應的是很恐怖 |
| 00:08:11,000 | 00:08:14,000 | 他們也不知道該怎麼辦的 |
| 00:08:14,000 | 00:08:16,000 | 然後我覺得還有一個就是說 |
| 00:08:16,000 | 00:08:18,000 | 像你可能在你們的報告寫 |
| 00:08:18,000 | 00:08:20,000 | 反對政經財委員刪除第九條的 |
| 00:08:20,000 | 00:08:23,000 | 達中央主管機關規定數量門檻 |
| 00:08:23,000 | 00:08:27,000 | 理由是無法估算行政執行成本跟效益 |
| 00:08:27,000 | 00:08:30,000 | 但是我覺得你的第十條連門檻都不敢寫 |
| 00:08:30,000 | 00:08:31,000 | 對 |
| 00:08:31,000 | 00:08:35,000 | 那你沒有試用加速也沒有評估影響成本 |
| 00:08:35,000 | 00:08:37,000 | 我覺得你應該是先做真正的效益 |
| 00:08:37,000 | 00:08:39,000 | 因為他那個如果沒有門檻的話 |
| 00:08:39,000 | 00:08:43,000 | 我們每一個用戶我們每個各戶家庭都會被管到 |
| 00:08:43,000 | 00:08:47,000 | 所以當初為什麼會有一定的容量以上 |
| 00:08:47,000 | 00:08:50,000 | 我說你要先估算一下你的執行成本跟成本效益 |
| 00:08:50,000 | 00:08:52,000 | 我們用戶有1300萬戶 |
| 00:08:52,000 | 00:08:53,000 | 對 |
| 00:08:54,000 | 00:08:56,000 | 我覺得你還是 |
| 00:08:56,000 | 00:08:59,000 | 那你如果有評估完的成本下一報告再送給我 |
| 00:08:59,000 | 00:09:01,000 | 再看看你是什麼評估效益的 |
| 00:09:01,000 | 00:09:02,000 | 好 |
| 00:09:02,000 | 00:09:04,000 | 好謝謝宏義祥委員 |
| 00:09:04,000 | 00:09:05,000 | 部長先回座 |