| IVOD_ID |
169547 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/169547 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-19-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-21T11:53:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-21T12:05:06+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:36 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14c66ee36e76b85c94a2ac657c33fd1aca1860e2f1c42d1af929c1ba330123fbb44aa4b1a787b5ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
蔡易餘 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:53:30 - 12:05:06 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣糖業股份有限公司董事長、農業部部長、行政院災害防救辦公室首長、行政院公共工程委員會首長、內政部首長率國土管理署首長、交通部首長、原住民族委員會首長、財政部國有財產署首長、國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會首長及衛生福利部首長就「全台各縣市汛期防洪防災工程準備情形及花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖災後復原重建工作」執行進度及預算運用進行報告，並備質詢。
【5月20日及5月21日二天一次會】） |
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蔡委員易餘 |
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0.924 |
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蔡委員易餘 |
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0.924 |
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SPEAKER_02 |
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蔡署長長展 |
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蔡委員易餘 |
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蔡委員易餘 |
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蔡署長長展 |
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蔡委員易餘 |
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蔡署長長展 |
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蔡委員易餘 |
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蔡署長長展 |
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陳組長智華 |
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陳組長智華 |
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蔡署長長展 |
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蔡署長長展 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
27.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
我們有請蔡奕宇委員謝謝主席我們先請這個國產署的今天是主秘來今天是國產署 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
35.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
37.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
社會委員好主委好 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
38.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
63.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
主任因為我們基於這個國有財產法就是關於國有耕地的國有耕地的放豬販林那以及關於造林農耕養殖的事業等事業可以來辦理放豬販林辦法是由財政部會同有關機關來擬定那所以我們依此去看了國有耕地的放豬辦法第6條那第2條有 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
65.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
87.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
第6條他們針對所謂國有根定放豬的一個對象那有規定了所謂這個第6條裡面始終第3就是說實際耕作毗邻耕地的耕地所有權人那第4款是說實地耕作毗邻耕地的耕地成豬人那表示說 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
88.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
108.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
以第三跟第四內,它基於一個土地的一個完整性那它去放租的一個對象,它在耕地的所有權人,毗鄰耕地的所有權人或者是毗鄰耕地的成租人,他們就可以去要求過耕地的放租這在耕地上有這樣的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
110.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
138.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
最近因為我接受不少陳情那就發現說像這樣的耕地跟所謂的養殖用地的規定是不一樣的也就是說養殖用地如果我毗鄰我旁邊有個餘溫那我這邊是餘溫那我基於我養殖的完整性我可能需要把我旁邊的土地同樣的這一塊養殖用地把它租起來那就方便我整個養殖的一個完整性 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
139.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
160.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
阿基哥沒有辦法,他只能用標租的方式,那標租基本上就充滿著不確定性,就沒辦法用所謂的一個放租。那我想這樣的規定當時是設計上的瑕疵呢?那還是你們對於所謂國有耕地跟國有的養殖用地,你們用這樣不同的標準的用意是何在呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
161.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
188.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
耕委員報告就是因為主要是國有耕地放豬他當時是為了擴大農地的耕作所以他在國有耕地他的定義裡面就是指的是區域計劃範圍的特定農業區一般農業區還有山坡地保育區森林區的農牧用地並作為這個農作跟畜牧使用那因為養殖用地他不是這個國有耕地放豬辦法所定義的農牧 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
188.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
213.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
所以他沒有辦法來適用這個法條來辦理那養殖用地呢另外我們針對養殖用地的出租呢我們在國產法42條裡面就是規範就是說如果是在82年7月21號以前有實際使用而且符合一些規定的話是可以來進行辦理出租的來訂定養殖地的租約另外如果是在海岸地區的土地的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
214.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
236.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
如果漁業主管機關准許他來養殖的話我們也可以來辦理養殖地的放豬那第三種就是說如果他養殖地我們是可以來辦理標豬的所以目前針對養殖地的部分那現行機制是已經有來出放豬給漁民來使用養殖以上說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
236.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
258.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
對,所以剛剛事實上講的就是答案啦,就是說你們養殖的地的用標株,那跟現在國有耕地用放豬的這個方法,不一樣。對,是的。那你說國有耕地有基於說,你希望他們就是比較大規模的一個耕作,那養殖一樣啊? |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
260.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
277.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我如果餘溫我在旁邊還有另外一塊餘溫那我可能一套設備或一套管理機制那就方便他養殖那為什麼同樣的一個精神沒有辦法就比照我有耕地那這涉及到你們的辦法你們就調整你們的辦法就好啦也不用用到修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
278.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
294.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
因為應該是說國產法46條裡面它針對國有耕地的部分它會來提供放租所以當時內政部在訂國有耕地放租辦法的時候它已經去界定了這個耕地的範圍了它並不包括養殖用地那是第一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
295.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
321.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
你說國有耕地得提供,得提供為放豬或放羚之用但是你第二項一樣是有規定啊可供、造羚、農啃、養殖等事業用者得辦理放豬或放羚事實上是一樣的啊第二項它所授予就法條授予你們的權利一樣只是你們在訂辦法的時候你們卻把國有耕地跟所謂的養殖用地你們把它做了一個很大的一個區隔 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
324.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
347.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那這個是你們當時的考量的問題,那考量問題就是說,您希望耕地可以越大規模越好,養殖你們卻沒有把這一塊放進來那如果是當時的一個缺漏,一個瑕疵的話,我們就辦法把它補辦就好啦為什麼一定要堅持說,好那國有的養殖用地,你們就要用標諸的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
349.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
367.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
應該是說這個國產法46台南第二項的是邊際跟海岸土地他指的是那個海岸地區的土地在辦理所以如果海岸地屬於海岸土地的話如果是屬於漁業主管機關同意養殖的話那是可以直接放豬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
368.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
391.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
對啊,那養殖也並不是只有海岸地啊養殖事實上很誇張啊那你指的海岸地到底多少範圍是海岸?這個有定義嗎?有,就是土地法14條第一項第一款就是不得私有的土地到低潮線的地方這個範圍是我們的所稱的那這看起來範圍就是小嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
393.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
411.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
範圍就是以現在我們傳統認知的養殖啦,事實上養殖應該還是有一點在,也不是純海岸才有養殖,它像餘溫的養殖,那餘溫的養殖咧,主委我是沒辦法理解啦,是怎樣,就把它放寬規定這樣就可以了。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
412.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
433.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
讓他一樣有放豬嘛,我既然在旁邊有,我在旁邊已經有養殖,已經有養殖適時那我希望把我旁邊的土地一併取得,那也是一樣在你做啊,那你為什麼不能讓他放豬應該說他當時在訂定的時候,在耕地放豬辦法裡面,他是針對農牧用地去訂而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
434.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
447.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
對 那是耕地啊 那你們還是有一條關於養殖的辦法那你們只要把精神比照就好啦因為它這個第二項的養殖 它是邊際跟海岸地邊際跟那邊際跟海岸 那所以一般的養殖用地就沒有在裡面對 是的所以你認為說這還是要回到修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
463.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
491.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
如果祖密你的意思是說要回答那修法我就來提案了所以說我是覺得這件事情理解起來並沒有那麼複雜我也不覺得說這個你們用去用辦法調整因為精神是一樣的嘛你若聚農民你希望他們生活比較快讓他們方便管理對於漁民一樣啊精神一樣啊讓他們方便管理啊他們既然養殖你就讓他們大面積來養殖這有什麼問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
494.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
515.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
而且他還是要養殖用,他不能做其他使用他違反使用的話,你們的租約會收回去,沒有錯吧?對不對,就會中止他的租約所以他一樣是要維持養殖,那指於說他在管理上的方便,他需要跟旁邊的人既然那個地是固有地,他就自己租起來這樣怎麼有什麼問題? |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
521.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
523.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那我再有請這個內政部國土署署長 蔡署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
533.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
552.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
主長因為時間是不太夠了我想要跟你聊一下我們現在嘉義的再生水廠的興建目前的評估大概每日的供水量是6500噸那它的再生水的來源當然是民生的污水以及這個這個溪的一個節流的一個水 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
557.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
579.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
目前我們嘉義縣的普遍接管率還是不足嘛所以署長你們認為說要怎麼去強化未來我們整個嘉義縣區尤其在縣制特區這裡它的污水的一個污水下水道的接管率那第二個我們如果用瀑子溪的節流水那為什麼不把鄰近的巴掌溪一併考量在內呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
581.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
596.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
跟我們報告那個嘉義縣這個地方的污水接管我想我們每年度都有編列預算去補助地方政府那這個部分我們再來盤點說哪些區域包含用戶接管的那個實施能夠再增加這個部分我們會再跟地方政府加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
597.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
618.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那另外再生水的部分應該今年會完成完成招商他119年應該可以供水但是他節流的部分剛剛委員提到的是說節流巴掌溪我們再來跟那個縣政府溝通一下因為這個部分要涉及到那個水體的一個水質他有可能在那個位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
619.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
644.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
是趕潮段或等等的我們再來去評估一下那部分巴掌溪還不是趕潮段那我們再來基本上應該如果真的在做節流應該還是會從水上就是中埔到水上這一段我認為說這一段基本上它是還有一定的水量而且這邊如果做一樣做節流的話未來可以有更穩定的水因為我們知道整個未來台積電COWAS的設廠它的水 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
645.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
663.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
需求是會持續攀升的上次我們在省區計畫的時候也知道說這個地方的再生水量不足那如果說剛剛委員提到的這個建議我們評估完可以的話可能就是在這個方案裡面我們再把它調整進去所以我希望把巴掌系納進來因為鋪子溪跟巴掌系一樣有一個問題就是說他遇到這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
666.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
693.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
汛期跟非汛期尤其說像現在溫某漏洪的情況它的水源就會少所以你們多一點來源未來對於整個再生水的供應的一個穩定度這個才會有更大的幫忙而且以現在來說現在累者相對的成本是比較低的你跟未來已經都規劃差不多差不多來追加那整個成本又會提高很多好不好好謝謝委員提供這個非常好的意見謝謝好那就麻煩署長好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
695.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
696.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
好 謝謝蔡英文委員 |
| transcript.gazette[0].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[0].start |
2026-05-21T11:53:47.701000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[0].end |
2026-05-21T11:53:54.966000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].text |
謝謝主席，我先請國產署的主秘。 |
| transcript.gazette[0].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[1].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[1].start |
2026-05-21T11:53:57.467000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[1].end |
2026-05-21T11:53:57.467000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].text |
請國產署。 |
| transcript.gazette[1].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[2].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[2].start |
2026-05-21T11:54:05.918000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[2].end |
2026-05-21T11:54:06.240000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].text |
委員好。 |
| transcript.gazette[2].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[3].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[3].start |
2026-05-21T11:54:07.347000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[3].end |
2026-05-21T11:54:07.608000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].text |
主秘好。 |
| transcript.gazette[3].quality |
0.667 |
| transcript.gazette[4].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[4].start |
2026-05-21T11:54:08.629000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[4].end |
2026-05-21T11:54:29.023000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].text |
主秘，我們基於國有財產法，關於國有耕地的放租、放領，以及關於造林、農墾、養殖的事業可以來辦理放租、放領，辦法是由財政部會同有關機關來擬定。 |
| transcript.gazette[4].quality |
0.867 |
| transcript.gazette[5].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[5].start |
2026-05-21T11:54:29.884000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[5].end |
2026-05-21T11:55:18.369000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].text |
所以我們依此去看了國有耕地放租實施辦法第六條，這條有國有耕地放租的對象，第一項第三款規定「實際耕作毗鄰耕地之耕地所有權人」、第四款是「實際耕作毗鄰耕地之耕地承租人」，表示第三款跟第四款是基於土地的完整性放租的對象，在毗鄰耕地的所有權人或者是毗鄰耕地的承租人，他們就可以要求國有耕地的放租，在耕地上有這樣的規定。 |
| transcript.gazette[5].quality |
0.804 |
| transcript.gazette[6].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[6].start |
2026-05-21T11:55:20.512000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[6].end |
2026-05-21T11:55:48.182000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].text |
最近因為我接到不少陳情，我發現像這樣的耕地跟所謂養殖用地的規定是不一樣的，也就是養殖用地如果毗鄰，我旁邊有個魚塭，我這邊也是魚塭，基於我養殖的完整性，我可能需要把我旁邊的土地，即同樣的這一塊養殖用地把它租起來，方便我整個養殖的完整性。 |
| transcript.gazette[6].quality |
0.926 |
| transcript.gazette[7].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[7].start |
2026-05-21T11:55:49.822000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[7].end |
2026-05-21T11:55:57.686000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].text |
結果是沒有辦法，他只能用標租的方式，但標租基本上就充滿著不確定性，就沒辦法用所謂的放租。 |
| transcript.gazette[7].quality |
0.9 |
| transcript.gazette[8].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[8].start |
2026-05-21T11:55:59.827000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[8].end |
2026-05-21T11:56:02.969000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].text |
這樣的規定是當時設計上的瑕疵嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[8].quality |
0.867 |
| transcript.gazette[9].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[9].start |
2026-05-21T11:56:04.110000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[9].end |
2026-05-21T11:56:10.453000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].text |
你們對於國有耕地跟國有養殖用地使用標準不同的用意何在？ |
| transcript.gazette[9].quality |
0.885 |
| transcript.gazette[10].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[10].start |
2026-05-21T11:56:11.970000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[10].end |
2026-05-21T11:56:32.442000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].text |
跟委員報告，主要是國有耕地放租當時是為了擴大農地的耕作，所以在國有耕地的定義裡面，指的就是區域計畫範圍的特定農業區、一般農業區還有山坡地保育區、森林區的農牧用地，並作為農作跟畜牧使用。 |
| transcript.gazette[10].quality |
0.953 |
| transcript.gazette[11].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[11].start |
2026-05-21T11:56:33.102000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[11].end |
2026-05-21T11:56:41.626000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].text |
而因為養殖用地不是國有耕地放租辦法所定義的農牧用地，所以他沒有辦法適用這個法條來辦理。 |
| transcript.gazette[11].quality |
0.902 |
| transcript.gazette[12].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[12].start |
2026-05-21T11:56:42.887000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[12].end |
2026-05-21T11:57:01.014000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].text |
至於養殖用地，另外我們針對養殖用地的出租，我們在國產法第四十二條裡面規範，如果在82年7月21號以前已實際使用，而且符合一些規定的話，是可以來進行辦理出租的，來訂定養殖地的租約。 |
| transcript.gazette[12].quality |
0.909 |
| transcript.gazette[13].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[13].start |
2026-05-21T11:57:01.014000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[13].end |
2026-05-21T11:57:17.326000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].text |
另外，如果是在海岸地區的土地，漁業主管機關准許他來養殖的話，我們也可以來辦理養殖地的放租；第三種，如果是養殖地，我們是可以來辦理標租的。 |
| transcript.gazette[13].quality |
0.951 |
| transcript.gazette[14].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[14].start |
2026-05-21T11:57:17.786000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[14].end |
2026-05-21T11:57:26.193000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].text |
所以目前針對養殖地的部分，現行機制是已經有出、放租給漁民來使用養殖，以上說明。 |
| transcript.gazette[14].quality |
0.971 |
| transcript.gazette[15].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[15].start |
2026-05-21T11:57:26.873000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[15].end |
2026-05-21T11:57:40.022000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].text |
對，所以剛剛事實上講的就是答案，養殖地用標租跟現在國有耕地用放租的方法不一樣。 |
| transcript.gazette[15].quality |
0.944 |
| transcript.gazette[16].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[16].start |
2026-05-21T11:57:40.022000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[16].end |
2026-05-21T11:57:40.222000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].text |
對，是的。 |
| transcript.gazette[16].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[17].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[17].start |
2026-05-21T11:57:40.803000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[17].end |
2026-05-21T11:58:02.564000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].text |
你說國有耕地有基於希望他們比較大規模的耕作；養殖一樣啊，如果我在旁邊還有另外一塊魚塭，可能一套設備或一套管理機制就方便他來養殖，為什麼同樣的精神，沒有辦法比照國有耕地？ |
| transcript.gazette[17].quality |
0.949 |
| transcript.gazette[18].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[18].start |
2026-05-21T11:58:03.385000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[18].end |
2026-05-21T11:58:07.590000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].text |
這涉及到你們的辦法，你們就調整你們的辦法就好了，也不用到修法。 |
| transcript.gazette[18].quality |
0.964 |
| transcript.gazette[19].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[19].start |
2026-05-21T11:58:08.741000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[19].end |
2026-05-21T11:58:23.758000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].text |
應該是說，國產法第四十六條裡面，針對國有耕地的部分可以提供放租，所以當時內政部在定國有耕地放租辦法的時候，已經去界定耕地的範圍了，它並不包括養殖用地。 |
| transcript.gazette[19].quality |
0.899 |
| transcript.gazette[20].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[20].start |
2026-05-21T11:58:23.898000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[20].end |
2026-05-21T11:58:38.347000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].text |
那是第一項，你說國有耕地得提供為放租或放領之用，但是第二項一樣是有規定，可供造林、農墾、養殖等事業用者，得辦理放租或放領。 |
| transcript.gazette[20].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[21].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[21].start |
2026-05-21T11:58:38.747000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[21].end |
2026-05-21T11:59:17.544000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].text |
事實上是一樣的，法條授予你們的權利一樣，只是你們在訂辦法的時候，你們卻把國有耕地跟養殖用地做了一個很大的區隔，這是你們當時考量的問題，就是你們希望耕地可以越大規模越好，你們卻沒有把養殖這塊放進來，如果只是當時的一個缺漏、一個瑕疵的話，你們就調整辦法就好了，為什麼一定要堅持國有的養殖用地就是要用標租的？ |
| transcript.gazette[21].quality |
0.921 |
| transcript.gazette[22].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[22].start |
2026-05-21T11:59:19.199000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[22].end |
2026-05-21T11:59:37.379000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].text |
應該是說，國產法第四十六條第二項是邊際跟海岸土地，指的是海岸地區的土地得辦理，所以屬於海岸土地的話，如果漁業主管機關同意養殖，那是可以直接放租的。 |
| transcript.gazette[22].quality |
0.896 |
| transcript.gazette[23].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[23].start |
2026-05-21T11:59:38.803000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[23].end |
2026-05-21T11:59:45.307000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].text |
對啊，不過我們的養殖也並不只有海岸地，事實上養殖是很廣義的。是。 |
| transcript.gazette[23].quality |
0.571 |
| transcript.gazette[24].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[24].start |
2026-05-21T11:59:46.628000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[24].end |
2026-05-21T11:59:49.710000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].text |
你指的海岸地到底多少範圍是海岸？ |
| transcript.gazette[24].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[25].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[25].start |
2026-05-21T11:59:51.031000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[25].end |
2026-05-21T11:59:51.912000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].text |
這個有定義嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[25].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[26].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[26].start |
2026-05-21T11:59:51.912000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[26].end |
2026-05-21T11:59:59.857000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].text |
有，土地法第十四條第一項第一款不得私有土地到低潮線的地方，這個範圍是我們所稱的海岸土地。 |
| transcript.gazette[26].quality |
0.829 |
| transcript.gazette[27].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[27].start |
2026-05-21T12:00:00.037000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[27].end |
2026-05-21T12:00:01.178000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].text |
那這個範圍看起來就是小嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[27].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[28].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[28].start |
2026-05-21T12:00:03.292000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[28].end |
2026-05-21T12:00:14.541000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].text |
以我們傳統認知的養殖，事實上養殖應該還是有一點在……也不是純海岸才有養殖，像漁塭的養殖，那漁塭的養殖呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[28].quality |
0.891 |
| transcript.gazette[29].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[29].start |
2026-05-21T12:00:15.862000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[29].end |
2026-05-21T12:00:17.122000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].text |
主秘，我是沒辦法理解啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[29].quality |
0.9 |
| transcript.gazette[30].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[30].start |
2026-05-21T12:00:19.044000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[30].end |
2026-05-21T12:00:36.332000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].text |
把它放寬規定就可以了，讓它一樣有放租，因為既然在我旁邊已經有養殖事實，我希望把旁邊的土地一併取得，也是一樣跟你們租，你為什麼不能讓他放租？ |
| transcript.gazette[30].quality |
0.841 |
| transcript.gazette[31].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[31].start |
2026-05-21T12:00:37.994000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[31].end |
2026-05-21T12:00:43.520000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].text |
應該是說，當時在訂定國有耕地放租辦法裡面，是針對農牧用地去定而已。 |
| transcript.gazette[31].quality |
0.833 |
| transcript.gazette[32].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[32].start |
2026-05-21T12:00:44.389000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[32].end |
2026-05-21T12:00:49.993000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].text |
對，那是耕地，你們還是有一條關於養殖的辦法，你們只要把精神比照就好了。 |
| transcript.gazette[32].quality |
0.968 |
| transcript.gazette[33].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[33].start |
2026-05-21T12:00:50.294000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[33].end |
2026-05-21T12:00:53.036000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].text |
因為這個第二項的養殖是邊際跟海岸地。 |
| transcript.gazette[33].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[34].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[34].start |
2026-05-21T12:00:53.236000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[34].end |
2026-05-21T12:00:56.518000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].text |
邊際跟海岸，所以一般的養殖用地就沒有在裡面？ |
| transcript.gazette[34].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[35].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[35].start |
2026-05-21T12:00:56.559000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[35].end |
2026-05-21T12:00:56.579000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].text |
對，是的。 |
| transcript.gazette[35].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[36].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[36].start |
2026-05-21T12:00:56.879000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[36].end |
2026-05-21T12:00:57.259000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].text |
所以你認為這還是要回到修法？ |
| transcript.gazette[36].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[37].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[37].start |
2026-05-21T12:01:13.154000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[37].end |
2026-05-21T12:01:16.055000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].text |
如果主秘的意思是要回到修法，那我就來提案啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[37].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[38].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[38].start |
2026-05-21T12:01:17.555000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[38].end |
2026-05-21T12:01:41.381000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].text |
我是覺得這件事情理解起來並沒有那麼複雜，我覺得這個你們去用辦法來調整，因為精神是一樣的，至於農民，你們希望他們種得比較寬一點，讓他們方便管理；對於漁民，精神一樣啊，讓他們方便管理，他們既然養殖，你就給他們大面積的養殖，這有什麼問題嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[38].quality |
0.895 |
| transcript.gazette[39].speaker |
陳主任秘書智華 |
| transcript.gazette[39].start |
2026-05-21T12:01:41.381000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[39].end |
2026-05-21T12:01:44.192000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].text |
委員，這部分…… |
| transcript.gazette[39].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[40].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[40].start |
2026-05-21T12:01:44.192000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[40].end |
2026-05-21T12:01:48.195000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].text |
而且他還是要養殖用，他並不能做其他使用，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[40].quality |
0.81 |
| transcript.gazette[41].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[41].start |
2026-05-21T12:01:50.297000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[41].end |
2026-05-21T12:01:53.760000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].text |
基本上他違反使用的話，你們的租約會收回去，沒有錯吧？是的。 |
| transcript.gazette[41].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[42].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[42].start |
2026-05-21T12:01:55.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[42].end |
2026-05-21T12:01:56.762000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].text |
就會取消、終止他的租約。是。 |
| transcript.gazette[42].quality |
0.636 |
| transcript.gazette[43].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[43].start |
2026-05-21T12:01:56.762000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[43].end |
2026-05-21T12:02:05.389000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].text |
所以他一樣是要維持養殖，只是他在管理上方便需要毗鄰地，既然那塊是國有地，他們就跟你們一併承租，這樣哪有什麼問題？ |
| transcript.gazette[43].quality |
0.706 |
| transcript.gazette[44].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[44].start |
2026-05-21T12:02:05.389000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[44].end |
2026-05-21T12:02:11.860000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].text |
主秘先回。 |
| transcript.gazette[44].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[45].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[45].start |
2026-05-21T12:02:11.860000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[45].end |
2026-05-21T12:02:13.623000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].text |
我再有請內政部國土署蔡署長。 |
| transcript.gazette[45].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[46].speaker |
蔡署長長展 |
| transcript.gazette[46].start |
2026-05-21T12:02:13.623000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[46].end |
2026-05-21T12:02:23.630000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].text |
委員好。 |
| transcript.gazette[46].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[47].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[47].start |
2026-05-21T12:02:23.630000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[47].end |
2026-05-21T12:02:50.323000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].text |
署長，因為時間不太夠，我想要跟你聊一下，現在我們嘉義再生水廠的興建，目前評估大概每日的供水量是6,500噸，再生水的來源當然是民生的污水以及溪的截流水，目前嘉義縣普遍接管率還是不足嘛？對。 |
| transcript.gazette[47].quality |
0.927 |
| transcript.gazette[48].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[48].start |
2026-05-21T12:02:51.984000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[48].end |
2026-05-21T12:03:09.571000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].text |
所以署長，你們認為要怎麼去強化未來整個嘉義縣區，尤其是在縣治特區污水下水道的接管率；第二個，我們如果用朴子溪的截流水，為什麼不把鄰近的八掌溪一併考量在內呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[48].quality |
0.931 |
| transcript.gazette[49].speaker |
蔡署長長展 |
| transcript.gazette[49].start |
2026-05-21T12:03:11.704000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[49].end |
2026-05-21T12:03:26.142000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].text |
跟委員報告，嘉義縣這個地方的污水接管，我們每年度都有編列預算去補助地方政府，我們會再來盤點哪些區域，包含用戶接管的實施能夠再增加，這個部分我們會再跟地方政府加強。 |
| transcript.gazette[49].quality |
0.96 |
| transcript.gazette[50].speaker |
蔡署長長展 |
| transcript.gazette[50].start |
2026-05-21T12:03:27.163000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[50].end |
2026-05-21T12:03:51.683000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].text |
另外，再生水的部分，今年應該會完成招商；119年應該可以供水，但是截流的部分，剛剛委員提到的是納入八掌溪，我們再跟縣政府溝通一下，因為這個部分涉及到水體的水質，有可能在那個位置是感潮段等等的，我們再去評估一下水質。 |
| transcript.gazette[50].quality |
0.904 |
| transcript.gazette[51].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[51].start |
2026-05-21T12:03:52.203000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[51].end |
2026-05-21T12:04:01.387000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].text |
八掌溪的那部分還不是感潮段，如果真的在做截流應該還是會從水上，就是中埔到水上這一段。 |
| transcript.gazette[51].quality |
0.846 |
| transcript.gazette[52].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[52].start |
2026-05-21T12:04:02.227000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[52].end |
2026-05-21T12:04:17.398000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].text |
基本上我認為這一段還是有一定的水量，而且如果這邊一樣做截流的話，未來可以有更穩定的水，因為我們知道未來整個台積電CoWoS的設廠對水的需求是會持續攀升的。 |
| transcript.gazette[52].quality |
0.808 |
| transcript.gazette[53].speaker |
蔡署長長展 |
| transcript.gazette[53].start |
2026-05-21T12:04:17.799000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[53].end |
2026-05-21T12:04:21.962000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].text |
上次我們在審區域計畫的時候，也知道這個地方的再生水量不足。對。 |
| transcript.gazette[53].quality |
0.893 |
| transcript.gazette[54].speaker |
蔡署長長展 |
| transcript.gazette[54].start |
2026-05-21T12:04:22.803000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[54].end |
2026-05-21T12:04:29.548000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].text |
如果剛剛委員提到的這個建議，我們評估完若可以的話，我們可能在這個方案裡面再把它調整進去。 |
| transcript.gazette[54].quality |
0.927 |
| transcript.gazette[55].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[55].start |
2026-05-21T12:04:30.329000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[55].end |
2026-05-21T12:04:59.984000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].text |
我希望把八掌溪納進來，因為朴子溪跟八掌溪有一樣的問題，就是遇到汛期跟非汛期，尤其像現在都沒有下雨的情況下，水源就會少，所以你們多一點水源，未來對於整個再生水供應的穩定度才會有更大的幫忙，而且以現狀來說，現在相對的成本是比較低的，當未來已經都規劃差不多了，後來再來追加，等於成本又會提高，好不好？ |
| transcript.gazette[55].quality |
0.836 |
| transcript.gazette[56].speaker |
蔡署長長展 |
| transcript.gazette[56].start |
2026-05-21T12:05:00.264000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[56].end |
2026-05-21T12:05:03.025000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].text |
好，謝謝委員提供非常好的意見，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[56].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[57].speaker |
蔡委員易餘 |
| transcript.gazette[57].start |
2026-05-21T12:05:03.025000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[57].end |
2026-05-21T12:05:03.906000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].text |
好，就麻煩署長，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[57].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[58].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[58].start |
2026-05-21T12:05:05.322000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[58].end |
2026-05-21T12:05:06.472000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].text |
好，謝謝蔡易餘委員。 |
| transcript.gazette[58].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[59].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[59].start |
2026-05-21T12:05:06.972000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[59].end |
2026-05-21T12:05:10.400571+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].text |
接下來我們有請洪孟楷委員。 |
| transcript.gazette[59].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[60].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[60].start |
2026-05-21T12:05:10.700571+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[60].end |
2026-05-21T12:05:16.414857+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].text |
我們中午不休息，延長開會時間至議程處理完畢。 |
| transcript.gazette[60].quality |
0 |