| IVOD_ID |
164058 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164058 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-13T12:49:56+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-13T13:09:26+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:19:30 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edcdd977ca2d203cf9beadaba87319979820384c49a5c49387943b8e70d39bd81cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:49:56 - 13:09:26 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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好 謝謝主席我邀請食安辦許主任還有江署長食安辦許主任 部長你那一位我希望跟主任跟署長對話也請部長聽看看部長因為我們在修食安法的時候那個時候你應該是144的司長100年的時候 你說 |
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應該主任跟江署長都應該都會有這樣的印象不過當時你們都還沒有來啦從100年的時候什麼地溝油啦毒奶粉啦然後工業用的其中還有一個是工業用的某某什麼樣的一個原料他基本上也流用到很大的食品廠裡面去做他的添加物這個所以從100年的時候一直修修修修了修了將近 |
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應該是七次到八次就是要讓這個食安法更正完備也建立起台灣消費者對政府的信心除此之外還有所有的這些業者的有所遵循不要再有這樣的一個這麼大的一個食安危機來產生 |
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所以今天才會特別來辦這樣的一個 召開這樣的一個專案報告我要接續剛剛王子旭委員的槌尋還有廖偉祥召委的槌尋剛剛主任是回答他一個月時間你說這一個月 如果再給你一個月時間 |
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三華可能又要再重來大修了然後如果剛剛聽到部長針對蘇清泉召委那個臨時提案部長跟那個江署長的回應目前我們已經有封信的是 |
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128.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
剛剛署長講是好像兩萬多噸嘛後來部長趕快把麥克風搶起來說是一千兩百多公斤嘛然後從這家不銷廠家已經分送到應該是屬於中下游的這個廠家基本上應該有扣兩千多公斤起來嘛對不對但是已經出去的七八百公斤左右嘛這說實在正確嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
130.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
157.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
但是我會很驚訝因為署長就坐在部長旁邊為什麼你們兩個講的數據天狼地瘪今天是專案報告 今天是專案報告署長 今天是專案報告你們的專案報告裡面兩份基本上很多的數據該去凸顯出來通通沒有你們自己回去看你們的專案報告是非常非常我實在不願意講這些話了是已經藐視到未還委員會所有的委員也藐視台灣的消費者 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
160.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
184.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
剛剛林委員講那些話我覺得坦白講你如果還不覺得那是一個非常重的話其實對江署長來講是一個很大的挑戰跟諷刺了因為我們都看好江署長就任之後應該對整個不管是食品不管是藥物會有很多的革新的這樣的積極的作為那怎麼會在你任內發生這麼嚴重的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
184.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
211.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
他已經用到怠惰 獨持內神通外鬼還是外神通內鬼各位剛剛都有在場嘛 都有聽到這些話那你們怎麼還會在臨時提案的時候會把數據又講錯如果要再追下去這些數據是這些而已嗎我再簡單講啦我實在是很想再聽徐主任講說這個事情怎麼會發生 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
213.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
236.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
怎麼可能這樣發生怎麼發生完之後的處理的整個SOP是這個樣子到今天在委員會對所有委員做出的報告又是這個樣子連剛剛你們打呼王委員的那一個內容你們就這樣講的過去我要簡單講 當時因為很多的面向 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
239.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
260.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以才會在這個委員會一直修一直修一直修有一個法律修得好像跟交通處罰條例一模一樣修不完耶 修不停修到最後大家覺得台灣的食安已經往前邁進一大步 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
261.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
284.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那今天回過稻草發生這件事情 六月初被檢舉到十月才有這樣的動作然後你們剛剛答覆的是要會同保七總隊你跟我講在剛剛部長答覆委員的相關的問題這五年就好 總共有告發三百五十幾件 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
285.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
310.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
總共金額花了兩千多萬 對不對好 這五年 這五年花了兩千多萬三百多件跟這一件雷同的 跟這件的樣態差不多的有需要收到檢舉六月 然後才十月初擴大檢警調 好 然後相關單位去做處理嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
312.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
326.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我隨便都可以列舉 等一下我的資料裡面就會顯示出來有拖這麼久嗎有需要這麼做嗎有需要這個是你們原有的SOP啊還是換了江書長之後SOP改了 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
331.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
358.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以我希望在委員會你們就很坦誠的很實際的把狀況講清楚了這個事情怎麼可能還有讓你一個月的時間去做什麼樣的調整跟修正部長 新官三任三把火你該立位就該要立位了因為畢竟你也當過衛福部的次長所以你去履歷一下這整個過程 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
359.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
382.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
真的問題大到很難想像啊我再簡單提醒兩件事情這家公司啊 這家公司營業項目一大堆這家公司我們一樣算五年就好他用的工業用的 淨的工業用的這雙氧水 他淨了多少量他不是關注的化學物質 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
383.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
407.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
但是他的這個化學物質一直流向這家公司這家公司零零總總登記的多數都是在做茶葉 煙酒 食品 農產 畜產 水產其他農畜產品還有飼料 還有食品實貨 飲料 零售業還有太多 太多通通跟食品有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
409.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
434.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這五年這家公司這家公司進了多少公寓用的這雙重水我們的政府不管是環境部的毒化署 化學署現在改為化學署我們的衛護部的FDA通通不知道通通沒有掌握還需要經過人家檢舉之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
437.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
465.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
然後現在說要一個月時間來做相關的調整還是處理還是怎麼樣這個你們說得過去你知道剛剛說查扣封存的查扣的這些這些是你們現在有扣的那再往前推還有其他廠家像這樣類似的大廠用在什麼樣的用在什麼樣的食物上 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
469.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
496.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
主任你知道吧不是只有台灣的特色小吃叫做大腸麵線他用了幾項我們每天台灣的國人幾乎通通要吃到大腸麵線不一定大家每天都會吃嘛那早餐有一個叫做什麼大腸豬尾湯 吃得到嗎 會嘛那火鍋店的主要食材大腸是不是很重要的 對 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
497.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
514.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
然後咧 還有什麼你可以講 大家講給我聽聽幾項時間到了這麼快對啊 滷味啊 麻辣啊 燒烤啊各種的其實炸肥腸啊 薑絲炒大腸啊肥腸茄堡啊我剛剛在底下就寫了11項就寫了11項不只啦 還有還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
527.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
547.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我們每天到底這一家被你們查獲的被檢舉被你們查獲的這個廠家百威流入到這些店面餐廳火鍋店小吃店串燒店每天到底多少量查獲之前這五年我們就抓這五年就好了所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
555.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
580.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
主席給我一點時間讓主任講清楚好不好好那個跟委員報告委員一開始從食安法的修法開始那事實上這個是一個它是一個非法行為就是說我們如果從正規的業者應該用食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
581.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
600.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
及的食品添加物的雙氧水來做的時候是在我們的納管之中在這個案子裡面大概我們看到有幾個盲點就是說我們先前沒有注意到主任我希望你不要用盲點兩個字好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
601.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
627.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
你應該直接了當講說這個哪一個環節是不應該會這樣發生的我希望我們就直接坦承了好不好謝謝對 其實從今天上午到現在有相當多討論第一個就是它在這個畜牧之後到食品的銜接的權責然後它業別一樣是很特別然後第二個它既然有食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
629.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
655.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個從事食品加工的行為然後他沒有去食品業者去登錄然後我們在原有的這樣的他為什麼他為什麼他為什麼沒有去登錄因為他為什麼到這事情發生之後才知道他沒有去登錄對這個這家公司開多久了你們掌握他這家公司開多久了上午的商登大概是一二十年的百威他五百萬的那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
657.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
682.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
資本額 對然後那我們初步的了解是他認為他是屬農方在管理在那個屠宰場裡面所以屠宰場就是農方但事實上他的業他的從業的行為是在跟食品就等於分分切處理那一塊了所以我們其實就會對這一塊在介於農方跟衛方間的兩邊都 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
685.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
704.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
會未來共同去管理那至於剛剛先不要講未來我們先講說這家公司我這邊寫的是核准設立的日期是102年最後核准變更日期是113年就是這樣的數據應該不會 trauma 對不對不管怎樣他就是一個叫做他的名稱叫做百威食品 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
705.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
722.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
有限公司對那我們一樣追五年嘛這五年他到底他到底進了多少的這個工業用的這個雙氧水嘛為什麼這件事情他是食品公司啊他進了這麼多的工業用的雙氧水 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
724.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
752.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
你們剛剛還在講說雙空水有分食用跟工業用他就是禁工業用啊工業用的在現在的狀況是沒有納入環境部的這個關注化學所以我們現在第一步就要把他這個請環境部納到他的這個關注化學他沒有納入到關注的化學物質的情況之下他是又是一家食品有限公司他這五年到底進了多少工業用的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
753.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
775.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個雙氧水怎麼你們通通不知道食安五環是這樣嗎食安五環是一定要關注的化學物質你們才有辦法勾結的到嗎是這樣嗎你真的要很慎重很專業的回答我的問題喔我剛剛在主席台我就已經提醒你們今天為什麼要辦這個專案報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
778.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
802.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我們如果不清楚 我不會這樣講啦我希望我們把事情就講清楚因為已經有人講說你們瀆職了啊你們內省通外鬼 外鬼通內省我是不想再講這些話那個現行的情況確實我們沒有掌握這個怎麼會沒有掌握怎麼會有這樣的落實沒有掌握到 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
804.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
828.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
因為只有關注化學物質才要去化學雲申報是然後因為他並沒有列進去所以一家食品有限公司他只要他進的都不是關注的化學物質他這五年進了已經完全不合乎常理的情況之下來供應這個食品加工廠他自己本身的廠廠去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
829.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
857.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
什麼樣的情況去調配或是加入或是添加我們通通管不到只因為它不叫做關注的化學物質所以我們食安辦我們FDA我們環境部通通管不到是這樣嗎我們當時修法有辦法修到讓你可以今天來對委會講說這就是盲點這就是修法上的遺漏之處你現在要答呼我是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
859.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
888.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
你對過去的100年那第8屆第9屆的委員你要講說你們修法就是很兩光啊今天才會發生這樣的事情啊他根本不能夠用那如果他進了這一類的這一個非實天的第8屆說楊耀文已經來了喔他有參與修法那個他要說明他是怎麼樣的用途是在洗地板的或者是環境用途特別的用途要跟誰說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
891.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
915.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
他自己就要寫記錄然後跟集合的時候就要可以解釋出來一般的時候會有地方的這個衛生局然後那定期如果排專案的時候會有這個跨單位的去聯機所以地方政府有問題還是你不好意思說 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
917.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
941.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
還是地方政府跟FDA南區的都有問題你也不好意思說你是食安辦的主任你有什麼好不好意思說的因為實際狀況因為他沒有登錄所以很可能會在名單之外所以這個得要緊迫的要把這個洞補上我實在因為這個講下去時間用很多啦後面還有兩個位委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
944.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
964.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
昨天你剛答覆我第一句話 我覺得食安辦已經不見了我已經把結論寫出來了環境部不管 衛福部不吃然後就創造台灣成千上萬個無辜的消費者因為每天都要吃這些東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
967.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
991.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
最後我再講部長可能底下提供給你訊息的你要用可能要小心一點過去5年355件花了2500多萬然後這一件花了5400萬要給他破產我覺得這件事情這個業者還沒有破產我們的食安班跟食藥署就已經破產了 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
994.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1022.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
你要跟我講說這一件是故意的 所以就重罰5400萬355件 花了2500多萬 通通不是故意的是這樣嗎2500多萬除以355件 平均一件7萬你這一件叫做故意的所以就是你平均裁罰在五年委婉食品相關的法律的這些業者高於幾倍呢 770倍了 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1028.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1057.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
你們覺得在過嗎所以我再問下去再提醒剛剛主任才講到第一個環節而已喔後面還有很多這邊都留下一些歷史紀錄不管是FDA不管是地方政府不管是新北台北台南高雄等等等只要稽查 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1059.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1082.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
稽查相關視頻過期啊你們就雷力風行到什麼程度了這些事情一個大腸每天台灣消費者在很多面向都必須要實用到你們可以6月被接受檢舉之後拖到10月你才大張旗鼓的有減掉 減減掉大大大七個單位六七個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1084.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1103.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
去做 去做 去做稽查然後才 才 才封存的一千兩百多公斤而已三個多月從六月被檢舉我們都不要再抓了我們從六月開始你們受以檢舉那個時候這家公司又製造的 又 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1104.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1128.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
又加入了公用的雙氧水每天多少量每天出到什麼地方去總共一直到被你們封存之後這組組將近一百多天請把數據公布給大家知道請把數據公布給大家知道然後相關的人員必須要負起什麼樣的責任要不要連跟你們一起去的減掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1130.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1158.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
檢察官一併辦這裡面到底涉及多少的隱匿不報涉及多少的工人該作為而不作為就獨持要不要一併辦請這個禮拜請這個禮拜把相關的一些調查報告是不是給未還委員會我禮拜四還是可以變更議程不可能等到你們一個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1160.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1168.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
請主任 署長 還有部長來正視這個事情是好 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝劉建國稍微的發言謝謝 |
| gazette.lineno |
1100 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
劉委員建國：（12時50分）謝謝主席。有請食安辦許主任還有姜署長。部長，你歇一下沒關係。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請食安辦、姜署長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
許主任輔：召委好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
姜署長至剛：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
劉委員建國：我希望我跟主任、署長的對話，也請部長聽看看。部長，我們在修食安法的時候，那時你應該是醫事司司長，100年的時候。主任跟姜署長應該都有這樣的印象，不過當時你們都還沒有來，從100年的時候什麼地溝油、毒奶粉，其中還有一個是工業用的、某某什麼樣的一個原料，它基本上也流用到很大的食品廠裡面做為添加物。所以從100年的時候一直修、修、修，應該修了將近7次到8次，就是要讓食安法更臻完備，也建立起臺灣消費者對政府的信心；除此之外，還讓所有的業者有所遵循，不要再產生這麼大的食安危機。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][1] |
所以今天才會特別召開這樣的一個專案報告，我要接續剛剛王正旭委員還有廖偉翔召委的垂詢，剛剛主任回答是1個月的時間，但如果再給你1個月時間，食安法可能又要再重來、大修了。剛剛聽到針對蘇清泉召委那個臨時提案，部長跟姜署長的回應，目前我們已經有封存的，剛剛署長講是好像2萬多噸，後來部長趕快把麥克風搶過來說是一千兩百多公斤。然後從這家不肖廠家已經分送到中下游廠家的，基本上應該有扣了兩千多斤起來，對不對？但是已經出去的有七、八百公斤左右，這個數字才正確嘛！但是我會很驚訝，因為署長就坐在部長旁邊，為什麼你們兩個講的數據是天南地北？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
姜署長至剛：這個是我的錯，因為腦袋…… |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
劉委員建國：今天是專案報告。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
姜署長至剛：抱歉、抱歉。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
劉委員建國：署長，今天是專案報告，你們的兩份專案報告基本上很多數據該凸顯出來的，通通沒有。你們自己回去看你們的專案報告是非常非常……我實在不願意講這些話，這已經藐視到衛環委員會所有的委員，也藐視臺灣的消費者。剛剛林委員講那些話，坦白講，你如果還不覺得那是一個非常重的話……其實對於姜署長來講是一個很大的挑戰跟諷刺了。我們都看好姜署長就任之後，應該對於整個不管是食品，不管是藥物會有很多革新的積極作為，所以怎麼會在你任內發生這麼嚴重的事情？他已經用到怠惰、瀆職、內神通外鬼還是外神通內鬼！各位剛剛都在場嘛！都有聽到這些話，那你們怎麼還會在臨時提案的時候又把數據講錯？如果要再追下去，這些數據是這些而已嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][1] |
我再簡單講，我實在是很想再聽許主任講這個事情怎麼會發生、怎麼可能這樣發生，怎麼發生之後整個處理的SOP是這個樣子？到今天在委員會對所有委員做出的報告又是這個樣子？連剛剛你們答復王委員的那個內容，你們覺得這樣講得過去？ |
| gazette.blocks[8][2] |
我要簡單講，當時因為很多的面向與原因，所以才會在這個委員會一直修、一直修、一直修！一部法律修得跟道路交通處罰條例一模一樣，修不完、修不停，修到最後大家才覺得臺灣的食安已經往前邁進一大步。而今天，回過頭來看，發生這件事情，6月初被檢舉，到10月才有這樣的動作。然後你們剛剛答復的是要會同保七總隊，你跟我講，剛剛部長答復委員的相關問題時說，這5年總共告發三百五十幾件，罰了兩千多萬，對不對？好，這5年罰了兩千多萬、有三百多件，跟這一件雷同的、跟這件的樣態差不多的，有需要到6月收到檢舉，10月初才擴大檢警調，動員相關單位去做處理嗎？我隨便都可以列舉，等一下我的資料裡面就會顯示出來，有拖這麼久嗎？有需要這麼做嗎？這個是你們原有的SOP啊！還是換了姜署長之後SOP改了？所以我希望在委員會，你們就很坦誠、很實際地把狀況講清楚，這個事情怎麼還可能讓你花1個月的時間去做什麼樣的調整跟修正！ |
| gazette.blocks[8][3] |
部長，新官上任三把火，你該立威就該要立威了！畢竟你也當過衛福部次長，所以你去review一下這整個過程，真的問題大到很難想像。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][4] |
我再簡單提醒兩件事情。這家公司營業項目一大堆，我們一樣算5年就好，他進的工業用雙氧水進了多少量？它不是關注的化學物質，但是這一個化學物質一直流向這家公司，這家公司林林總總登記的多數、通通是在做茶葉、菸酒、食品、農產、畜產、水產、其他農畜產品還有飼料，以及食品、什貨、飲料、零售業，太多太多的項目通通跟食品有關係。這5年這家公司進了多少工業用雙氧水？我們的政府不管是環境部的毒化署，現在改為化學署，包括衛福部FDA，通通不知道、通通沒有掌握，還需要經過人家檢舉，然後現在說要1個月時間來做相關的調整、還是處理或怎麼樣！這個你們說得過去？你剛剛說的封存、查扣的這些，這些是你們現在有扣的，那再往前推，還有其他廠家類似像這樣的，大腸用在什麼樣的食物上，主任，你知道吧？不是只有臺灣的特色小吃叫做大腸麵線，他用了幾項，每天臺灣的國人幾乎通通要吃到喔！大腸麵線不一定大家每天都會吃，而早餐有一個叫做什麼？大腸豬血湯，吃得到嗎？會嘛！火鍋店的主要食材，大腸是不是很重要的？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
許主任輔：麻辣的。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
劉委員建國：對，然後還有什麼？你可以講大項、講給我聽聽有幾項。我時間到了，這麼快。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
許主任輔：對，滷味、麻辣、燒烤各種的其實…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
劉委員建國：對，炸肥腸、薑絲炒大腸、肥腸茄煲，我剛剛在底下就寫了11項，不只啊！還有！被檢舉、被你們查獲的這個廠家百威，流入到這些店面、餐廳、火鍋店、小吃店、串燒店的，每天到底有多少量？查獲之前這5年，我們就抓這5年就好了。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][1] |
主席，給我一點時間，讓主任講清楚，好不好？很嚴重。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
許主任輔：跟委員報告，委員從食安法的修法開始講，事實上它是一個非法行為，如果是正規的業者，應該用食品級的食品添加物雙氧水來做，那是在我們的納管之中。但在這一個案子裡面，我們大概看到幾個盲點，就是我們先前沒有注意到，我們會儘速…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
劉委員建國：主任，我希望你不要用「盲點」兩個字，好不好？你應該直接了當說哪一個環節不應該這樣發生，我希望就直接坦承，好不好？謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
許主任輔：好。其實從今天上午到現在有相當多討論，第一，在畜牧之後到食品銜接的權責問題，然後他的業別一樣是很特別。第二，他既然有從事食品加工行為，卻沒有食品業者的登錄，我們在原有的…… |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
劉委員建國：為什麼沒有登錄？為什麼到這個事情發生之後，你們才知道他沒有登錄？這家公司開多久了？你們掌握這家公司開多久了？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
許主任輔：上午的商登資料大概是一、二十年的百威，有500萬資本額，根據我們初步了解，他認為是屬農方管理，因為是在屠宰場裡面，而屠宰場就是農方管理，但事實上他從業的行為跟食品有關，等於是分切處理的那一塊，所以針對介於農方跟衛方間的這一塊，未來我們兩邊會共同管理。至於剛剛委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
劉委員建國：先不要講未來，我們先講這家公司，我這邊資料寫的核准設立日期是102年，最後核准變更日期是113年，這個數據應該不會錯，對不對？不管怎樣，它的名稱就叫做百威食品有限公司，我們一樣追5年，這5年到底進了多少工業用的雙氧水？它是食品公司，進了這麼多工業用的雙氧水，你剛剛還說雙氧水有分食用跟工業用，它就是進工業用的啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
許主任輔：工業用的，目前的狀況是沒有納入環境部關注化學物質，所以現在第一步就是要請環境部把它納入關注化學物質裡。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
劉委員建國：在沒有納入關注化學物質的情況下，它是一家食品有限公司，這5年到底進了多少工業用的雙氧水，怎麼你們通通不知道？食安五環是這樣嗎？食安五環是一定要關注化學物質，你們才有辦法勾稽得到嗎？是這樣嗎？主任，你真的要很慎重、很專業的回答我的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
許主任輔：我了解…… |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
劉委員建國：剛剛在主席台我就已經提醒你們，今天為什麼要辦這個專案報告？我如果不清楚，不會這樣講，我希望大家就是把事情講清楚，因為已經有人說你們瀆職了，是內神通外鬼、外鬼通內神！我實在不想再講這些話。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
許主任輔：現行的情況，確實我們沒有掌握這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
劉委員建國：怎麼會沒有掌握？怎麼會有這樣的lose而沒有掌握到？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
許主任輔：因為只有關注化學物質才要去化學雲申報，但它並沒有列進去…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
劉委員建國：所以一家食品有限公司只要進的不是關注化學物質，在完全不合乎常理的情況下，這5年進了這麼多工業用雙氧水來供應食品加工廠，然後去做什麼樣的調配、加入或添加，我們通通管不到，只因為它不叫做「關注化學物質」，所以食安辦、FDA、環境部通通管不到，是這樣嗎？我們當初修法，有辦法修到讓你今天可以對委員會說這就是盲點、這就是修法上的遺漏之處！你現在要答復我是這樣嗎？你要對過去第8屆、第9屆一百多個委員說因為你們修法很兩光，所以今天才會發生這樣的事情？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
許主任輔：那根本不能夠用，如果他進了這一類非食添的…… |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
劉委員建國：第8屆的時候，楊曜委員已經來了，他有參與修法喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
許主任輔：他要說明它是什麼樣的用途，是要洗地板、環境用或是有特別用途。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
劉委員建國：是嘛！要跟誰說明？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
許主任輔：他自己就要寫紀錄，然後稽核的時候，就可以解釋出來…… |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
劉委員建國：誰稽核？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
許主任輔：一般會有地方衛生局，然後定期排專案的時候，會有跨單位聯稽。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
劉委員建國：是，所以地方政府有問題？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
許主任輔：嗯…… |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
劉委員建國：你不好意思說？還是地方政府跟南區FDA都有問題？你也不好意思說？你是食安辦主任，有什麼好不好意思說的？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
許主任輔：實際狀況是因為沒有登錄，所以很有可能會在名單之外，我們應該儘速把這個洞補上。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
劉委員建國：這個再講下去時間會用很多，後面還有兩位委員要質詢。主任，你剛剛答復我的第一句話，就讓我覺得食安辦已經不見了，我已經把結論寫出來了：環境部不管，衛福部不知，然後創造了臺灣成千上萬個無辜的消費者，因為每天都要吃這些東西！ |
| gazette.blocks[38][1] |
最後我要再講，部長，幕僚提供給你的訊息，你使用時可能要小心一點，過去5年有355件，罰了兩千五百多萬，然後這一件罰了5,400萬，要讓他破產。我覺得這件事情，這個業者還沒有破產，食安辦跟食藥署就已經破產了！你跟我講這一件是故意的，所以重罰5,400萬，難道罰了兩千五百多萬的355件，通通不是故意的？是這樣嗎？兩千五百多萬除以355件，平均一件7萬，這一件叫做故意的，所以你的裁罰就比近5年違反食品相關法律案件的平均裁罰高達770倍，你覺得交代得過去嗎？我要提醒你們，剛剛主任才講到第一個環節而已，後面還有很多，這邊都有留下一些歷史紀錄，不管是FDA，不管是地方政府，不管是新北、臺北、臺南、高雄等等，只要稽查相關食品過期問題，你們就雷厲風行到什麼程度。而這件事情，一個大廠，臺灣消費者每天在很多面向都會食用到的食品，你們可以6月接到檢舉之後，拖到10月才大張旗鼓的由檢、警、調等6、7個單位去稽查，然後才封存一千兩百多公斤而已。3個多月時間，6月被檢舉，你們沒有去抓，從6月開始受理檢舉之後，這家公司又製造、加入的工業用雙氧水，每天多少量、出貨到什麼地方，一直到被你們封存，這足足將近一百多天時間，請把數據公布給大家知道，然後相關人員必須要負起什麼樣的責任，要不要連跟你們一起去查的檢、調、檢察官一併辦？這裡面到底涉及多少的隱匿不報、涉及多少的公務員該作為而不作為？這就是瀆職，要不要一併辦？請在這個禮拜把相關的調查報告提供給衛環委員會，我禮拜四還是可以變更議程，不可能等你們一個月，請主任、署長，還有部長正視這個事情。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
許主任輔：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
劉委員建國：好，謝謝主席，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
主席：謝謝劉建國召委的發言，也謝謝許主任的回應。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][1] |
下一位我們請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][2] |
下一位請葉元之委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
260 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-4-26-3 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
林淑芬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
楊曜 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
189 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2025-10-13 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1148201 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1148201_00005 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足
問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1148201_00004 |