| IVOD_ID |
163616 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163616 |
| 日期 |
2025-08-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-3-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第26次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
26 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第26次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-08-26T09:33:11+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-08-26T09:49:22+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:11 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e79022530a4dd902d45d7691804860db32efc647bf34d2ac095c9afa05eb447b671b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:33:11 - 09:49:22 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-08-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第26次會議（事由：一、行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案報告並備質詢（8月25日）。二、行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案」編製經過並備質詢（8月26日上午）。三、行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢（8月26日下午）。四、8月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.069 |
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0.289 |
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謝謝韓院長 請鍾院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
56.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
麻煩再請左院長備詢張委員好左院長經歷了兩次大罷免大失敗之後賴總統有特別提他說要做四大調整包括行政跟立法要調整結果看了你們送來的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
57.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
76.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
中央政府總預算的追加案啊都沒有改沒有調整耶那至少有三大違法它就是一個調整能夠把636億如果能夠把636億追加回來如果能把636億追加回來那就是一種我們善意的調整我們希望從此開始審查預算大家平心靜氣依法論事 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
88.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
116.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
三節預算絕對應該但是要合理而且重大的要跟兩院來協商我們說過去立法院都是如此未來的立法院我充滿信心你還是這樣硬碰硬不是硬碰硬不是硬碰硬你都不做改變人民會問賴總統對他講的調整包括行政立法的步驟要調整是真的嗎還是本來已經請辭了你根本就沒準備要調你今天送來至少有三大問題本來都應該改的 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
117.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
145.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
民眾已經清清楚楚透過選票而且很呼應你說 第一個該編列要加進去 驚人的加薪警消人員退休的所得替代力結果你不加這個不該編的又編進來636億立法院已經要求你去統三了你硬要把它塞進來還把地方政府 把人民當作票第三個更嚴重了立法院三讀通過 刪減很多預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
147.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
152.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
你很多都回編耶我統計你的七個單位回編的這個金額啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
153.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
182.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
是我們砍掉的超過百分之五十七十個七個單位喔超過五成喔還有三個單位竟然超過百分之百這三大違法你怎麼還敢送呢未來在實質審查的時候也請委員耐心聽聽各部會面臨的困難讓他們能夠有機會表達委員你也是預算的專家你真的認為立法院可以編一個預算要行政院增加預算嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
184.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
210.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
法律案通過當然可以啊那怎麼可以這樣說來我先問你三個來來來憲法跟預算法的規定都不是如此你如果經過了兩次大罷免大失敗你都完全不像那種調整的你就繼續再大失敗下去不只明年底的縣市長會輸你們總統大選會輸掉如果兩院的權責一直無法理清的話那不是任何一次投票決定的憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
212.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
215.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
憲法不是任何一個投票可以決定的除非修憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
218.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
233.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
你很有可能是中華民國啊有史以來第一個違憲而且一直違法不願意好好編列依法編列預算的行政院長行政機關認為有違憲之餘送請大法官解釋申請暫時處分這是憲法賦給我們的權利跟責任沒有違憲之餘那你釋憲之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
242.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
268.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
大法官還會議還沒有做裁決之前你依法行政立法院通過的法案你有沒有執行我有申請暫時處分你有執行嗎我有申請暫時處分我剛剛講的軍人的加薪剛剛講的警消的所得替代率提高委員你顯然還不瞭解暫時處分的目的你已經過了你為什麼沒有執行呢你顯然還不瞭解暫時處分的目的來來來 我們談三個很基本的原則啦看看你的法治觀念來 等一下我問你法例經過立法院三途通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
271.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
277.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
總統公告立即生效以後行政院 包括行政院長你們義務依法律來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
278.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
308.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我認為有違憲之餘我申請釋憲申請暫時處分我們就能夠暫時停在這個階段第一個你認為是對的你要執行第二個我沒有認為對的要執行你不要誤會我的答覆你不要誤會我的答覆不是你誤會我的答覆這樣不行如果行政院行政院不依法辦理是不是過程違法我有申請釋憲跟暫時處分第三個如果行政院向 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
308.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
327.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
總院長講的 你覺得有違憲之疑你是不是應該依照憲政程序 你要先依法執行顯然委員不知道暫時處分的效率是什麼有暫時處分嗎我有申請暫時處分有嗎 有暫時處分嗎我有申請你申請 有啊 但我會有...有暫時處分嗎沒有暫時處分前你要不要執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
332.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
343.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
還沒暫時處問之前 你要不要執行如果我們對中華民國憲法相關程序都認識不清的話你真的問你回答嘛 一定沒有暫時處問吧你要不要執行 驚人加薪 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
344.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
372.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
警消人員退休所得替代率提高目前有沒有暫時處分暫時處分就是暫時停止現在的新的制度我們停在這裡等大法官就暫時處分做準駁之後我們才能進到下一步否則我請問委員如果制限出來是一個違憲的那麼我們發了是你違憲還是我違憲如果我們發了你是中華民國有史以來第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
373.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
398.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第一個這樣做的你也是第一個委員立法院114年來只要是立法院通過總統公告的馬上就執行了全中華民國有史以來前無古人後無來者有一個著容態你也是第一個你也是第一個不了解暫時處分的委員你也是第一個院長接下來我跟你講上次有解決方法的啦您在講636億是 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
402.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
430.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
以前2002年那時候行政院長叫張進雄張進雄 你的前輩嘛 對不對那一年一樣立法院通過三讀以後要求他要自行刪減比636億還多耶658億那時候中央政府總預算只有現在差不多一半一兆五千多億人家張進雄透過朝野協商之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
431.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
451.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
人家就可以做啊沒有像你去砍了地方的一般補助款然後到今天送到立法院來的追加案還把地方政府把人民當成弱票要立法院去附贖金張委員你已經自己講出答案了經過草野協商之後有跟行政院協商嗎有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
452.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
480.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
協商是被你們破壞的從萬年總召柯建民你們三長跟整個黨團還有協商嗎沒有協商就可以大軍壓境嗎韓院長在主持會議的時候要朝野協商你們連主計長都不敢來耶中華民國有洗了朝野協商主計長財政部長要在被你們下令不能來立法院內的朝野協商發生困難就可以將行政院的意見完全不顧嗎是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
482.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
511.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
你們也不能完全不尊重立法院嘛所以我希望朝野協商第一個主計長 財政部長 相關人員要在我們要跟你談要三減多少你們要去精算嘛結果你們下令他不准來你們一開始就為了大罷免天才火你們就不要他來這段完全是惡意的誤會院長我們今天是要解決問題我跟你講有更好的解決方案我們從歷史找答案嘛以前有成功的個案啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
512.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
536.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你已經大罷免大失敗為什麼要困在那個大罷免大失敗裡面呢大罷免是公民團體所提出的不要說是我們大罷免是公民團體我們尊重人民就要有這樣的民主至上人民至上的主要的觀念在這裡不要一直說大罷免大失敗是我們提出的我們看成功的個案你是有智慧的人我相信你應該開始要調整了你不要一直陷在以前那個經驗裡面來 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
539.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
564.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個是主計處的故事你回到行政院主計總署你都可以看到這一頁這個講的是2002年那一年中央政府總議在審查的時候針對稅客收入大幅刪減了812億造成短差擴大到685億所以決議要求行政院自行檢列同耳的稅出彌補 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
565.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
592.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
有沒有看到那個關鍵字你的重點要畫在下一段你的重點要畫在下一段對 沒錯 你都沒有看到關鍵字也是要你自行調整嘛每一年立法院三讀通過的時候都會要求行政部門同時去做自行的調整 這是第一點我請委員繼續把下面那一段唸出來比今年的636億還多 685億那委員請把下面那一段唸出來啊來來 你來唸下面那一段唸出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
593.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
602.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
你下面那段啊行政院跟朝野黨團協商時提出各種可行的處理方案3月1號、12號、13號三次協商討論後兩院院長協議後3月22日簽署協議書有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
609.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
632.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
協商好幾次啊 韓院長就坐在上面啊韓院長主持過幾次會議韓院長為了解決這問題還進了總統府耶回來還邀集了各黨的黨團協商 怎麼會沒有協商呢韓院長已經很幫忙了 兩院院長協議後3月22日簽署協議書 有嗎院長你不要扭曲事實喔這個是你寫的喔 今天主席長來 主席長來坐在這邊 這是你的喔來來 你看 我先給你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
634.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
660.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
主席長我講的話主席長有聽進去嘛所以後來主席長參考了2002年的個案齊凱那時候也提出來所以後來主席長給你做了三個建議案對不對他說姐姐這636億很簡單嘛第一個山寨席什麼叫山寨席就是2002年用的方法嘛對啊我也同意主席長的點頭他有聽進去朝野協商有功效是你不採用 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
661.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
676.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
2002年的成功經驗也不採用主計程有良心的經驗你這樣有記事實嗎要在立法院繼續說謊你自己拿出來的影片裡面的文字你自己不在意你只念出那一段 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
677.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
703.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你只有頭沒有尾這樣的諮詢不行的啦我現在跟你講有草野協商不是嗎有兩院院長協商嗎有兩院院長簽字同意嗎那個 院長你就繼續留在那個大失敗裡面硬拗的那個過程我留在你的資料裡面經過以前有成功的個案而且草野協商 主席也跟你提了你就依照2002年看清楚嘛36億馬就解決了結果不是報告委員 我說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
704.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
719.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
沒有沒有 讓我講 時間有限要篩檢再洗 但是財政部是表示有困難所以才會這個測下來 是這樣因為他本身沒辦法 636對他來講他到7月他就付不出來你用以前成功個案 把再洗 以前 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
720.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
738.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
可能是降低 或者是延後 你就可以解決問題嘛韓院長那麼辛苦 還找大家來協商 本來是一個很好的成果沒關係 我今天不跟你爭辯這個我現在跟你講說 以前張進雄行 我不相信卓榮泰不行啦我也可以 兩院院長同意就可以不可能現在的戴清德不行張委員 兩院院長同意就可以 有嗎兩院院長同意就可以 有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
741.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
754.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
你有提出用再洗嗎沒有耶 你就去砍了一般補助款耶你們在這裡表決有給我機會嗎不只是私能耶 你叫私德耶這也是社會福利的預算基礎建設的預算教育的預算你們在這裡表決有給我機會嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
758.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
784.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以你後來有草野協商嘛 說不聽草野協商主席都提案子 你就照這樣做你們內部協商困難 你不能就讓行政院接受沒關係 你摸著良心 這錢你會做公平來 剛剛講的是你該送過來的 另外一個我該送的我都有送你看你送過來的是什麼不該送的636億堅持要送 該送的不送 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
785.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
805.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
金人加薪這個事情你看金人你送過來金人有加值你周榮泰想要怎麼做都可以對不對立法院通過你就是不願意做加值你一句話你就做了然後立法院通過幫金人一個月加薪三萬塊錢你偏偏就不做這是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
806.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
833.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
你有沒有考慮到憲法的程序你有考慮到國家的財政跟立法院還有所有你有考慮到所有公務人員的衡平性嗎我們加急量力而為而且循序漸進你有考慮到所有公務員的衡平性跟公平性嗎而且不只是金人警察人員 消防人員 海巡 移民署 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
835.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
847.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你提復一案你提了復一案你又失敗你今年追加你也不編115年也不編追加預算你腦袋裡面眼睛裡面有法治嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
848.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
873.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
你把憲法放在哪裡 把法律放在哪裡如果追加預算是一個法定可以走的程序那我們是依照這個程序 懇請委員就各部會現在自然難行執行業務困難之處 能夠再跟委員拜託請可委員來執行我只跟你講 你繼續留在以前那個你再硬啊 繼續再大失敗啦好 另外一個大問題你這是回編的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
874.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
892.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
不只是嚴重違反預算法預算法裡面四項才可以追加預算的你今天送來的幾乎都不是我統計了一下七個單位內政部被刪的預算回編追加率將近100%95國防部75行政院327農業部 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
903.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
916.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
超過54%環境部超過597個機關立法院砍掉了你全部把它補回來 補超過一半還有三個機關竟然還超過100%行政院327%外交部151%海委會139% 院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
926.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
943.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
你眼裡面有憲法有立法院嗎 有人民嗎立法院負責審查預算結果立法院砍掉了你全部把他追回來我們是爭取再一次機會讓各委員聽聽各部會的困難以後你們掙錢換成是其他黨的時候我看你們當在議長怎麼辦最重要比槍聲為內我們要認證憲法 尊重法治法 院長在議總統已經講了 行政立法不要再叫我再講了今天我跟你講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
956.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
960.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
好 謝謝好 謝謝張祺凱委員的資訊 |
| gazette.lineno |
247 |
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張委員啓楷：（9時33分）謝謝韓院長，請卓院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
卓院長榮泰：張委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
張委員啓楷：卓院長，經歷了兩次大罷免、大失敗之後，賴總統有特別提，他說要做四大調整，包括行政跟立法要調整，對不對？結果看了你們送來的中央政府總預算追加預算案都沒有改、沒有調整，至少有三大違法，第一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
卓院長榮泰：它就是一個調整。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
張委員啓楷：有調整嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
卓院長榮泰：能夠把636億…… |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
張委員啓楷：我在想是賴清德總統騙大家…… |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
卓院長榮泰：如果能夠把636億追加回來…… |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
張委員啓楷：還是卓院長本來請辭了以後來不及改？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
卓院長榮泰：把636億追加回來，那就是一種我們善意的調整，我們希望從此開始，審查預算大家平心靜氣、依法論事，刪減預算絕對應該，但是要合理，而且重大的要兩院來協商，過去立法院都是如此，未來的立法院我充滿信心。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
張委員啓楷：卓院長，你還是這樣硬碰硬，然後再狡辯的話…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
卓院長榮泰：不是硬碰硬。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
張委員啓楷：你都不做改變，人民會問，賴總統對大家講的調整，包括行政、立法的互動要調整，是真的嗎？還是本來已經請辭了，你根本就沒準備要調呢？你今天送來的至少有三大問題，本來都應該改的啊！民眾已經清清楚楚透過選票，而且很呼應你說的，第一個，該編列的要加進去，軍人的加薪、警消人員的退休所得替代率，結果你不加，不該編的又編進來，636億，立法院已經要求你去統刪了，你硬要把它塞進來，還把地方政府、把人民當作……第三個更嚴重了，立法院三讀通過刪減的很多預算，很多你都回編了。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們是請求…… |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
張委員啓楷：我統計有7個單位回編的金額是我們砍掉的超過50%，7個單位喔，超過五成喔！還有3個單位竟然超過百分之百！這三大違法，你怎麼還敢送呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
卓院長榮泰：未來在實質…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
張委員啓楷：你這樣有做到賴總統說的要調整嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
卓院長榮泰：張委員，未來在實質審查的時候，也請委員耐心聽聽各部會面臨的困難，讓他們能夠有機會表達。委員，你也是預算的專家，你真的認為立法院可以編一個預算要行政院增加預算嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
張委員啓楷：法律案通過當然可以啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
卓院長榮泰：怎麼可以這樣做？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
張委員啓楷：預算審查當然也可以啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
卓院長榮泰：那你就不是預算專家了。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
張委員啓楷：來，我先問你三個，來、來、來…… |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
卓院長榮泰：憲法跟預算法的規定都不是如此。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
張委員啓楷：卓院長，你經過了兩次大罷免大失敗，卻完全不像賴總統所說的要調整，你就繼續再大失敗下去，不只明年底的縣市長會輸，你們總統大選會輸掉，就看人民怎麼制裁你。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
卓院長榮泰：如果兩院的權責一直無法釐清的話，那不是…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
張委員啓楷：你是學法律的嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
卓院長榮泰：那不是任何一次投票可以決定的憲法。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，你是法律系畢業的。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
卓院長榮泰：憲法不是任何一個投票可以決定的，除非修憲。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
張委員啓楷：卓院長，你很有可能是中華民國有史以來第一個違憲，而且一直違法、不願意好好依法編列預算的行政院長，前無古人，後無來者！ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
卓院長榮泰：行政機關認為有違憲之虞送請大法官解釋，聲請暫時處分，這是憲法賦給我們的權利跟責任，沒有違憲之虞。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，那你釋憲之前，大法官會議還沒有作裁決之前，你依法行政，立法院通過的法案，你要不要執行？ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我有聲請暫時處分。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
張委員啓楷：你有執行嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我有聲請暫時處分。 |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
張委員啓楷：剛剛講的軍人的加薪、剛剛講的警消所得替代率提高…… |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員，你顯然不了解暫時處分的目的。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
張委員啓楷：已經通過了，你為什麼沒有執行呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你顯然不了解暫時處分的目的。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，來、來、來，我們談三個很基本的原則，看看你的法治觀念。第一個，我問你，法律經過立法院三讀通過，總統公告立即生效以後，行政院，包括行政院長有沒有義務依法律來辦理？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我認為有違憲之虞…… |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
張委員啓楷：有嘛！第二個…… |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我聲請釋憲、聲請暫時處分，我們就能夠暫時停在這個階段。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
張委員啓楷：這是第三個問題，我問你。好，第一個，你認為是對的，你要執行。第二個…… |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我沒有認為是對的要執行。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
張委員啓楷：第二個，如果行政院…… |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你不要誤會我的答復。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
張委員啓楷：看題目啦！看題目啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你不要誤會我的答復，不是，你誤會我的答復，這樣不行！ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
張委員啓楷：第二個，如果行政院不依法辦理，是不是構成違法？ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我有聲請釋憲跟暫時處分。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
張委員啓楷：第三個，如果行政院像卓院長講的，你覺得有違憲之虞，你是不是應該依照憲政程序要先依法執行？ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
卓院長榮泰：顯然委員不知道暫時處分的效力是什麼。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
張委員啓楷：有暫時處分嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我有聲請暫時處分。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
張委員啓楷：有嗎？有暫時處分嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我有聲請。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
張委員啓楷：你聲請，有嗎？大法官會議有暫時處分嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
卓院長榮泰：它還沒有做出決定啊！它有決定…… |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
張委員啓楷：沒有暫時處分前，你要不要執行？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員，我們這樣…… |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
張委員啓楷：還沒有暫時處分之前，你要不要執行？ |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
卓院長榮泰：如果我們對中華民國憲法相關程序都認識不清的話…… |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
張委員啓楷：你針對問題回答嘛！院長，目前沒有暫時處分嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
卓院長榮泰：暫時處分就是…… |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
張委員啓楷：你要不要執行？軍人加薪、警消人員退休所得替代率提高目前有沒有暫時處分？沒有嘛，對不對？你是不是要執行？ |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
卓院長榮泰：暫時處分就是暫時停止現在新的制度，我們停在這裡，等大法官就暫時處分做准駁之後，我們才能進到下一步，否則我請問委員，如果釋憲出來是一個違憲的，那麼我們發了，是你違憲還是我違憲？如果我們發了…… |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，你是中華民國有史以來第一個這樣做的。 |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你也是第一個委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
張委員啓楷：立法院114年來，只要是立法院通過、總統公告的，馬上就執行了，全中華民國有史以來前無古人、後無來者，就有一個卓榮泰！ |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你也是第一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
張委員啓楷：再這樣下去，大罷免大失敗了，還繼續這樣硬拗！ |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你也是第一個不了解暫時處分的委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
張委員啓楷：好，沒關係。來，院長…… |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你也是第一個！ |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，接下來我跟你講，是有解決方法的啦！你在講636億。 |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
張委員啓楷：以前2002年，那時候行政院長叫張俊雄，你的前輩嘛，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
張委員啓楷：那一年一樣，立法院通過三讀以後，要求他要自行刪減，比636億還多耶，685億，那時候中央政府總預算只有現在差不多一半，一兆五千多億，人家張俊雄透過朝野協商之後，人家就可以做啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
卓院長榮泰：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
張委員啓楷：沒有像你去砍地方的一般補助款，然後到今天送到立法院的追加案，還把地方政府、把人民當成肉票，要立法院去付贖金。 |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
卓院長榮泰：張委員，你已經自己講出答案了「經過朝野協商之後」，有跟行政院協商嗎？有嗎？有嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
張委員啓楷：協商是你們破壞的，從萬年總召柯建銘，你們三長有跟整個黨團好好協商嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
卓院長榮泰：沒有協商就可以大軍壓境嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
張委員啓楷：最根本的，韓院長要朝野協商在主持會議的時候，你們連主計長都不敢來，中華民國有史以來的朝野協商，主計長、財政部長要在，被你們下令不能來…… |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
卓院長榮泰：立法院內的朝野協商發生困難，就可以將行政院的意見完全不顧嗎？是這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
張委員啓楷：沒有，卓院長，你們也不能完全不尊重立法院…… |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我尊重，所以我希望朝野協商啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
張委員啓楷：朝野協商第一個，主計長、財政部長等相關人員要在，我們跟你談要刪減多少，你們就要去精算嘛！結果你們下令他不准來，你們一開始就為了大罷免添柴火，你們就不要讓他來，第二個，你們又推翻了整個朝野協商…… |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這一段完全是誤解、這一段完全是惡意的誤會。 |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，我們今天是要解決問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
張委員啓楷：我跟你講有更好的解決方案。 |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
卓院長榮泰：好。 |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
張委員啓楷：我們從歷史找答案，以前有成功的個案，你已經大罷免、大失敗，你為什麼要困在那個大罷免、大失敗裡面？ |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
卓院長榮泰：大罷免是公民團體所提出的，不要說是我們要大罷免。 |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
張委員啓楷：以前就有成功的個案，院長，我給你看…… |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是公民團體，我們尊重人民，就要有民主至上、人民至上的主要觀念在這裡，不要一直說大罷免、大失敗是我們提出的。 |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，我們看成功的個案，你是有智慧的人，我相信你應該要開始調整了，你不要一直陷在以前那個經驗裡面。這個是主計處的故事，你回到行政院主計總處就可以看到這一頁，講的是2002年，那一年中央政府總預算審查的時候，針對稅課收入大幅刪減了812億，造成短差擴大到685億，所以決議要求行政院自行減列同額的歲出彌補。有沒有看到那個關鍵字？ |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你的重點，委員，你的重點要畫在下一段。 |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
張委員啓楷：對、對，沒錯，你都沒有看到關鍵字，也是要你自行調整嘛，每一年立法院三讀通過的時候，都會要求行政部門同時做自行的調整，這是第一個，而且…… |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我請委員繼續把下面那一段唸出來。 |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
張委員啓楷：金額比今年的636億還多，是685億…… |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員，就把下面那一段唸出來啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
張委員啓楷：來、來，你來唸，對，要協商嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你下面那一段唸出來啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
張委員啓楷：來，你說紅字嘛！你來讀。 |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
卓院長榮泰：下面那一段「行政院亦於朝野黨團協商時提出各種可行之處理方案，經3月1日、12日、19日三次協商討論後，並經兩院院長協議後於3月22日簽署協議書」，有嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
張委員啓楷：協商好幾次，韓院長就在上面啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
卓院長榮泰：兩院院長…… |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
張委員啓楷：討論過幾次會議，韓院長為了要解決這個問題，還進了總統府耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
卓院長榮泰：韓院長…… |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
張委員啓楷：後來還邀集各黨黨團協商，怎麼會沒有協商呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
卓院長榮泰：韓院長已經很幫忙了，「兩院院長協議後於3月22日簽署協議書」，有嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，你不要扭曲事實…… |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這是你寫的、這是你的喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
張委員啓楷：今天主計長還坐這邊，我先給你看，我講的話主計長有聽進去嘛，所以後來主計長參考了2002年的個案，啓楷那時候也提出來，所以後來主計長給你做了三個建議案，對不對？他說解決這636億很簡單，第一個刪債息，什麼叫刪債息？就是2002年用的方法嘛，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
卓院長榮泰：對，我也同意，下面那一段。 |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
張委員啓楷：主計長點頭，他有聽進去，朝野協商有功效。 |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
卓院長榮泰：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[123][0] |
張委員啓楷：是你不採用2002年的成功經驗、也不採用主計長有良心的經驗…… |
| gazette.blocks[124][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我覺得張委員，你這樣的質詢、你這樣子斷章取義…… |
| gazette.blocks[125][0] |
張委員啓楷：你要繼續扭曲事實，在立法院繼續說謊…… |
| gazette.blocks[126][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你自己拿出來的影片，裡面的文字你自己不在意，你只唸出那一段，你只有頭沒有尾，這樣的質詢不行的啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[127][0] |
張委員啓楷：對啊，你唸了朝野協商，我現在跟你講有朝野協商，不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[128][0] |
卓院長榮泰：有兩院院長協商嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[129][0] |
張委員啓楷：連主計長都聽進去了…… |
| gazette.blocks[130][0] |
卓院長榮泰：有兩院院長簽字同意嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[131][0] |
張委員啓楷：院長，你就繼續留在大失敗那個硬拗的過程，我就跟你講…… |
| gazette.blocks[132][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我留在你的資料裡面…… |
| gazette.blocks[133][0] |
張委員啓楷：經過以前有成功的個案，而且朝野協商後主計長也跟你提了…… |
| gazette.blocks[134][0] |
卓院長榮泰：看清楚嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[135][0] |
張委員啓楷：你就依照2002年，636億就解決了，結果不是。 |
| gazette.blocks[136][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我說明一下…… |
| gazette.blocks[137][0] |
張委員啓楷：沒有、沒有，時間有限…… |
| gazette.blocks[138][0] |
陳主計長淑姿：要刪減債息，但是財政部表示有困難，所以才會撤下來，它本身沒辦法，636對它來講，它到7月就付不出來…… |
| gazette.blocks[139][0] |
張委員啓楷：你用以前成功個案，針對債息，以前可能是降低或者是延後，就可以解決問題嘛！韓院長那麼辛苦，還找大家來協商，本來是一個很好的成果，沒關係，我今天不跟你爭辯這個。我現在是跟你講說以前張俊雄行，我不相信卓榮泰不行啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[140][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我也可以，兩院院長同意就可以！ |
| gazette.blocks[141][0] |
張委員啓楷：以前的陳水扁行，不可能現在的賴清德不行…… |
| gazette.blocks[142][0] |
卓院長榮泰：張委員，兩院院長同意就可以，有嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[143][0] |
張委員啓楷：都可以喔…… |
| gazette.blocks[144][0] |
卓院長榮泰：兩院院長同意就可以，有嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[145][0] |
張委員啓楷：你有提出用債息嗎？你沒有耶！你就去砍了一般補助款…… |
| gazette.blocks[146][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你有給我們機會嗎？你們在這裡表決有給我機會嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[147][0] |
張委員啓楷：你不只是失能，你這是失德耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[148][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你們在這裡表決有給我機會嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[149][0] |
張委員啓楷：那是社會福利的預算、基礎建設的預算、教育的預算…… |
| gazette.blocks[150][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你們在這裡表決有給我機會嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[151][0] |
張委員啓楷：所以後來有朝野協商嘛！講不聽！朝野協商主計長都提案子，你就照這樣做，你不這樣做…… |
| gazette.blocks[152][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你們內部協商困難，不能就讓行政院接受嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[153][0] |
張委員啓楷：沒關係、沒關係，你摸著良心，這全民會做公評。剛剛講的是你該送過來的，好，另外一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[154][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我該送的我都有送…… |
| gazette.blocks[155][0] |
張委員啓楷：你看今年你送過來的是什麼，不該送的636億堅持要送，該送的不送，軍人加薪這個事情，你看今年你送過來軍人有加給，你卓榮泰想要怎麼做都可以，對不對？立法院通過的，你就是不願意送，加給你一句話你們就做了，然後立法院通過幫軍人一個月加薪3萬塊錢，你偏偏就不做，這是怎樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[156][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你有沒有考慮到憲法的程序？ |
| gazette.blocks[157][0] |
張委員啓楷：你有尊重立法院？有尊重憲法嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[158][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你有考慮到國家的財政跟立法院，還有所有公務人員的衡平性嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[159][0] |
張委員啓楷：你的加給就沒有財政問題？你的加給就沒有財政問題？立法院通過的就有財政問題？ |
| gazette.blocks[160][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們的加給量力而為，而且循序漸進，你有考慮到所有公務員的衡平性跟公平性嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[161][0] |
張委員啓楷：而且不只是軍人…… |
| gazette.blocks[162][0] |
卓院長榮泰：不要轉移話題！ |
| gazette.blocks[163][0] |
張委員啓楷：警察人員、消防人員、海巡、移民署，你提覆議案！你提了覆議案，你又失敗，今年追加你也不編，115年也不編，你什麼意思啊？你腦袋裡面、你眼睛裡面有法治嗎？你把憲法放在哪裡？把法律放在哪裡？ |
| gazette.blocks[164][0] |
卓院長榮泰：如果追加預算是一個法定可以走的程序，我們是依照這個程序，懇請委員就各部會現在窒礙難行、執行業務困難之處，能夠再跟委員拜託，請委員來支持…… |
| gazette.blocks[165][0] |
張委員啓楷：你出一張嘴啦！立法院三讀通過的條文及憲法都不想遵守就對了？我就跟你講，你繼續留在以前，你再硬拗繼續大失敗啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[165][1] |
好，另外一個大問題…… |
| gazette.blocks[166][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你只有這一句話啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[167][0] |
張委員啓楷：你這次回編的預算不只是嚴重違反預算法，預算法裡面四項才能追加預算，你今天送來的，幾乎都不是。我統計了一下7個單位，內政部被刪的預算，回編追加將近100%、國防部75%、行政院327%、農業部超過54%、環境部超過59%，7個機關，立法院砍掉的你全部把它補回來，補超過一半！還有3個機關竟然超過100%，行政院327%、外交部151%、海委會139%。院長，你眼裡面有憲法、有立法院嗎？有人民嗎？立法院負責審查預算，結果立法院砍掉的，你全部把它追回來…… |
| gazette.blocks[168][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們是爭取再一次機會讓委員聽聽各部會的困難…… |
| gazette.blocks[169][0] |
張委員啓楷：你們這樣大罷免、大失敗，以後你們政權換成其他黨的時候，我看你們當在野黨怎麼辦。最重要以蒼生為念嘛！我們要尊重憲法、尊重法治，院長，賴總統已經講了，行政、立法要調整…… |
| gazette.blocks[170][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們有調整，所以送來請大院理性討論…… |
| gazette.blocks[171][0] |
張委員啓楷：不要再焦土戰爭也不要硬拗，今天我跟你講的三大違失、三大違法，先把它補起來，該編的就要編，不該編的就不要編，好不好？尊重憲法，我希望你不管當多久，人民會記得你是一個守法、尊重憲法的院長，好不好？謝謝，以蒼生為念。 |
| gazette.blocks[172][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我願意跟一個守法的委員對話。 |
| gazette.blocks[173][0] |
主席：好，謝謝張啓楷委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長答詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[173][1] |
接下來請吳思瑤委員質詢，請洪孟楷委員準備。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
215 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
院會-11-3-26 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
賴惠員 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
159 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2025-08-26 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1147401 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1147401_00005 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「114年度中央政府總預算追加預算
案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─ |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1147401_00004 |