| IVOD_ID |
162269 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162269 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-23-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-05T09:47:26+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-05T09:55:58+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:08:32 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae56448b7de3026ec7f53cd8722aad0b92e7fe7f061fc5ac7c7dc76d6fe535e5dfa9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林俊憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:47:26 - 09:55:58 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」及三、委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草案」案。
【本日會議僅進行詢答】） |
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感謝主席 本席邀請我們工程會陳金德 陳主委請主委委員長主委好 主委你剛剛有提到就是因為北捷這個特休小偷的事件你剛剛有說到工程會要對於所頒布的採購契約範本 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
26.209 |
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要把它調回剛性讓採購機關執行的採購機關能夠遵循是不是應該這樣子這要修正政府採購法明定這個契約範本是機關必須遵循第一個其實由這個個案但實際上它是普遍存在這種狀況就我們工程會頒布的採購契約範本那實際上執行採購的單位很多都沒有依照這個來 |
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54.165 |
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甚至有很多是違反了這種採購報告就影響到勞權影響到勞工的權益這案件非常多其實北捷的案件2018年早在2018年監察院就提出了調查報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
70.78 |
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說北捷啊他利用他集團下面的公司輪流承攬這種清潔的標案但是勞工如果留任那他的年資兩年一標換個公司換個老闆年資歸零這種狀況2018年 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
88.423 |
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監察院就提出報告然後呢我們再來看看一直拖拖拖拖到最近啊爆發出來了那北捷才承認然後他要回歸到我們政府所頒布的勞動這種契約的一個範本 |
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104.469 |
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那過去啦就是說你北捷沒有依照工程會所訂的勞務採購區的範本啦那這個狀況其實所在都有啦那通常都是由各採購單位他自己有一個所謂的採購機油小組 |
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121.314 |
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在集合他的各項採購有沒有合法啦有沒有違反人權啊違反勞權等等那實際上因為這種集合小組都是機關就採購單位自己組的啦球員兼裁判啊 |
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139.516 |
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你工程會是有你工程會的 但是他本身也有一個集合小組嘛他不可能去抓自己的啦 我覺得那個都虛設的啦你等於自己的集合小組很少會抓到自己的一個狀況啦否則你看北捷這個2018年存在到現在 抓不出來所以我們政府呢 |
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163.49 |
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189.428 |
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你剛提到要把它轉為剛性啦 應該是按照採購法第63條啦各類的採購契約應該以採用主管機關訂定的範本為原則對 你訂的是原則嘛所以他很多他就不遵守啊所以基本上他並沒有一個強制力啦那實際上啊這一點啦 你轉為剛性啦 主委你是有道理的啦因為我們採用一個法院判決的範本 |
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191.55 |
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法院的一個民事裁決範本它就明定啦機關你要有正當的合理性還有一個理由以及必要性你才可以例外的不採用契約範本實際上法院已經做出有利於你工程會就是主委你剛講的你要轉回剛性的過去就有這樣的一個判例啦換言之也有說啦你一個機關喔你若沒有提出正當的理由還要被要請 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
219.983 |
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你一定要按照主管機關就是我們工程會頒布的契約範本所以你說要把它調整現在也來得及啦我認為這種狀況不會只有北捷一個個案應該是存在很多有這種狀況的主委您的看法 |
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因為不只是這個案例其他相關的這個採購跟採購對象之間是否有公平或要求這個得票廠商多做其他事情的要求等等存在很多很多個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
258.732 |
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286.235 |
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不適合這個採購的這些樣態都會透過我們將來修訂這個採購的這個企業換本改為剛性之後呢那希望所有機關就遵循工程會頒布的企業換本來做這個採購的行為就是除非你有事先提出特別的理由以及必要性是有以外 否則就應該要按照我們的企業換本是不是這個意思嗎 |
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我們目前修正的方向就如委員剛剛的指示但是我們當然會例外因為有些特殊的採購確實嘛所以原則上我們要求他要報到上級機關來核准他才能例外不採用好 謝謝主委另外我們最近在討論那個祭司法的修動草案 |
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314.92 |
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341.736 |
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為什麼要提祭司法修正草案呢我們來看一下 最近幾年各類的祭司被移送懲戒的人數統計大概有50件後來有做出懲戒處分的大概有30個人受懲戒處分的比例是60%左右實際上大概移送案件有4成都是 |
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342.878 |
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等於說都沒有達成懲戒的必要那為什麼會有那麼多的懲戒案件呢我認為我們祭司法有一個必須要修正的地方就是現在是由利害關係人他可以引用法條尤其是第19條他只要有那些行為他就可以直接把祭司給移送了 |
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370.782 |
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那其中啊 我看案件最多的都是鑑定的 技術版鑑定喔 這可能是有時候一般普遍的業務啦那有時你辦鑑定一定會有一個 兩個對照嘛 或者是說 我業壓關係 我覺得你的鑑定對我不利 |
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389.895 |
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他如果不滿他如果就可以引用這個計時法裡面的條文就把你給移送懲戒所以造成你看最後符合懲戒的比例其實六成其實很低表示有四成案件是根本不需要的那我們現在應該要在移送懲戒就關係人就是說你即使在被移送懲戒之前應該要有一個初步篩檢的一個機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
419.091 |
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426.981 |
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所謂的出塞的機制那到底這個技師有沒有違反相關法律規定才必要達到移送懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
428.981 |
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452.016 |
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那這個修法方向主委你要幹嘛因為非常正確那我們目前修法方向是說希望透過主管機關縣市或這個直轄市主管機關或者是他那個工會工會如果來審核之後由工會來移送那這樣會篩掉很多是利害關係人之間的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
453.997 |
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479.569 |
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糾紛然後利用這個提起懲戒來做這個必要的要求所以我們目前會這個祭司法是朝這個方向來修正那如果主委認同的話那為什麼我們工程會沒有自己的版本行政院沒有院本送出來因為是5月20號才送到行政院那這個版本大概大概是兩年前就有提到上一屆就有提到那因為屆期不連續 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
480.91 |
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487.144 |
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所以現在我們這一屆的立法院現在也有很多立委在關心這個事情 |
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488.33 |
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511.705 |
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那我覺得應該要有願本我們5月20送到行政會竣訴不過我們相對跟委員提案的條文內容大同小異所以我們今天有提出工程會的主張那稍微有修正部分委員的提案那方向都是一致的好那我們應該就往這個方向來努力好不好好 謝謝主委好 謝謝主席 |
| gazette.lineno |
236 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
林委員俊憲：（9時47分）感謝主席，本席邀請工程會陳金德主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
陳主任委員金德：委員早。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
林委員俊憲：主委好。因為北捷這個特休小偷的事件，你剛有說工程會要把所頒布的採購契約範本調為剛性，讓執行的採購機關能夠遵循，是不是應該這樣子？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
陳主任委員金德：我們要修正政府採購法，明定契約範本是機關必須遵循。 |
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林委員俊憲：第一個，其實這個個案實際上是普遍存在的狀況，就工程會頒布的採購契約範本，實際上執行採購的單位很多都沒有依照辦理，甚至有很多是違反採購法，就會影響到勞工的權益，這種案件非常多。其實北捷的案件，早在2018年監察院就提出調查報告，說北捷利用集團下面的公司，輪流承攬清潔的標案，這是兩年一標，換個公司、換個老闆，但是如果勞工留任，他的年資歸零，有這種狀況，在2018年監察院就提出報告了。但一直拖拖拖，拖到最近爆發出來，北捷才承認，然後才回歸到政府所頒布的勞務契約範本，過去北捷沒有依照工程會所訂的勞務採購契約範本，這個狀況其實所在多有，通常都是由各採購單位自己有一個所謂的採購稽核小組，在稽核各項採購有沒有合法、有沒有違反人權、違反勞權等等。實際上，因為這種稽核小組都是機關採購單位自己組的，球員兼裁判。工程會是有工程會的，機關本身也有一個稽核小組，但他們不可能去抓自己的問題，我覺得那個都虛設的，單位自己的稽核小組，很少會抓到自己的狀況，否則，北捷的狀況從2018年存在到現在都抓不出來。你剛剛提到要把它轉為剛性，應該是按照採購法第六十三條，各類的採購契約應該採用主管機關訂定的範本為原則。 |
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陳主任委員金德：這會新增。 |
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林委員俊憲：對！你訂的是原則，所以很多他就不遵守啊！基本上，它並沒有強制力。實際上，這一點你轉為剛性，主委，你是有道理的，法院的一個民事裁決就明定機關要有正當合理之事由以及必要性，才可以例外不採用契約範本，實際上，法院已經做出有利於工程會的判決，就主委剛剛講的，你要轉為剛性的規定，過去就有這樣的判例，機關如果沒有提出正當理由跟必要性，一定要按照主管機關工程會頒布的契約範本，所以你說要把它調整，現在來得及啦！我認為這種狀況不會只有北捷一個個案，應該很多都存在這種狀況。主委，你的看法呢？ |
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陳主任委員金德：因為不只是這個案例，其他相關的採購跟採購對象之間是否有公平或要求得標廠商多做其他事情等等，存在很多不適合的採購樣態，都會透過我們將來修訂採購法的契約範本，改為剛性之後，希望所有機關就遵循工程會頒布的契約範本來進行採購行為。 |
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林委員俊憲：對，除非你有事先提出特別的理由以及必要性以外，否則就應該要按照契約範本，是不是這個意思？ |
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陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，我們目前修正的方向，就如委員剛剛的指示，但是我們當然會有例外，因為確實有些特殊的採購，所以原則上，我們會要求他要報到上級機關核准，才能例外不採用。 |
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林委員俊憲：好，謝謝主委。另外，我們最近在討論技師法的修正草案，為什麼要提技師法的修正草案呢？我們來看一下，最近幾年各類技師被移送懲戒的人數統計大概有50件，後來有做出懲戒處分的大概有30個人，受懲戒處分的比例是60%左右，實際上大概移送案件有四成等於是沒有懲戒的必要，為什麼會有那麼多的懲戒案件呢？我認為技師法有一個必須要修正的地方，現在是由利害關係人可以引用法條，尤其是第十九條，他只要有那些行為，就可以直接把技師移送。其中，我看案件最多的都是鑑定，技師在辦理鑑定可能是很普遍的業務，辦鑑定一定會有兩個對造，或者是利害關係人覺得你的鑑定對我不利，如果他不滿，就可以引用技師法裡面的條文把你移送懲戒，造成最後符合懲戒的比例很低，六成其實很低，表示有四成案件是根本不需要的。在技師被移送懲戒之前，應該要有一個初步篩檢機制，即所謂的初篩機制，到底這個技師有沒有違反相關法律規定而有必要達到移送懲戒？對這個修法方向，主委的看法呢？ |
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陳主任委員金德：這個非常正確。我們目前修法方向是希望透過縣市或直轄市主管機關，或者是他們的公會，如果公會來審核之後，由公會來移送，這樣會篩掉很多利害關係人之間的糾紛，然後利用提起懲戒來做必要的要求，所以我們目前技師法是朝這個方向來修正。 |
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林委員俊憲：如果主委也認同的話，為什麼工程會沒有自己的版本呢？行政院沒有送院版出來呢？ |
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陳主任委員金德：因為是5月20日才送到行政院，這個版本大概是兩年前就有提到。 |
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林委員俊憲：上一屆就有提到。 |
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陳主任委員金德：對。 |
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林委員俊憲：因為屆期不連續，我們這屆立法院現在也有很多立委在關心這個事情，我覺得應該要有院版。 |
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陳主任委員金德：我們5月20日送到行政院會儘速，不過相對我們跟委員提案的條文內容大同小異，所以我們今天有提出工程會的主張，稍微有修正部分委員的提案，方向都是一致的。 |
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林委員俊憲：好，那我們就往這個方向來努力，好不好？ |
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陳主任委員金德：好。 |
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林委員俊憲：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。 |
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主席：謝謝。現在請魯明哲委員。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
176 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-3-23-14 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
許智傑 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
李昆澤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
魯明哲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
陳素月 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
徐富癸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
蔡其昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
邱若華 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
游顥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
廖先翔 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
133 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2025-06-05 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1145701 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1145701_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
審查一、委員徐欣瑩等18人、二、委員陳俊宇等20人分別擬具「技師法第十一條條文修正草案」
及三、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人擬具「技師法第十一條及第四十二條條文修正草
案」案【本日會議僅進行詢答】 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1145701_00003 |