| IVOD_ID |
157130 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157130 |
| 日期 |
2024-11-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-2-26-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-11-20T10:26:09+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-11-20T10:42:49+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:40 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab0086b26e5bd29a5f15c44cfb233885202ae224b9eab90f6174d47481ca160e5e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:26:09 - 10:42:49 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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2.13 |
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來,有請部長蔡署長你並上來吧我也好部長辛苦了但這件事情從11月4號發生到現在如果再處理不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
30.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
48.809 |
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你會越來越苦了。勞動部上上下下的同仁也一樣會越來越苦。會發生這樣的憾事絕對不是一個單一事件。所以你們的調查報告裡面,我覺得有很多討論的空間。 |
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51.543 |
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77.125 |
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雖然是外部委員的這樣的一個調查但畢竟是經過您跟次長對外公開說明所以就必須要概括承受當然當然今天北昏暑發生這個憾事會有這麼多執政黨的地方議員到現在還窮追不捨 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
79.659 |
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103.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
也有政治黨的委員也看不下去所以今天蘇昭偉排這樣的專案報告當然就是要趕快來釐清不要讓這樣的憾事再持續發生下去但是我們真的有這樣的決心跟魄力跟環形確實不要讓這樣的憾事再發生下去嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
105.302 |
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109.264 |
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顯然在這個報告裡面我說真的是看不出來真的是看不出來我在講我們的許傳勝次長有特別提到嘛鄭雲峰組長有凌晨1點、5點船內在交辦事情而且還規定在10分鐘內要回復 |
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130.215 |
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149.966 |
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10分鐘內如果沒有回覆,隔天就叫到辦公室去罵這是你們的報告嘛,是次長所講的嘛,對不對好,針對這一位已經失去生命的同仁你們報告裡面說這個副處長對他沒有霸凌但在這個次長上,他確實有霸凌的行為這不是很衝突,不是很矛盾委員我剛剛已經解釋了,可以讓我解釋嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
159.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
179.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我再講一下啦我一定給你時間解釋因為你講說他是因為領導統一的風格嘛對不對都在你報告裡面那與同仁互信破裂還要繼續執行職務恐有爭議且對機關生意有重大之影響建議先行調整職務 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
180.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
190.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
所以分所長的調理限職是在他的領導統一不是讓同仁命上在這個辦公室而且我們只是擔心他繼續執行職務影響到機關的聲譽是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
198.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
215.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
委員就是說他是一個機關的最高首長他的任何行為一定會影響到每一個人所以他有對一級主管會影響到每一個人嘛所以一定包含這個11月4號在自己的辦公室結束生命的這個同仁我想透過層層傳導也會的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
217.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
241.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
對嘛對,可是不是直接原因不是直接他霸凌他他中間還隔著兩位主管就是我這一次也進行懲處的副分署長以及秘書室主任這就是這兩位主管才是直接督導這位離開的同仁那謝分署長的確有對其他的一級主管進行霸凌可是他是透過層層傳導的機制傳導到我們離開的同仁身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
246.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
272.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
應該是這麼說部長我覺得你這麼講我可以理解你對這事情的認知跟感受還有你在公部門的職場的相關一些經驗但是有些事情是已經是整個系統已經出的很嚴重的問題對我覺得是要凸顯系統性的問題才去做這樣的調查這個系統性問題應該也不是只有北分署是的連老花署本身問題也非常嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
275.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
302.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
要不要問一下我們的署長在他的任內他的任內中副署長還有相關的有多少同仁都被都被提早退休有多少個科長級的現在從九職等八職等自己調到地方的區公所署長要不要對外說明一下署已經出問題分署哪有不出問題的道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
305.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
320.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
有沒有跟委員報告齁我們在今年如果以今年齁我們大概是有3名同仁退休對那其中都是借齡對對都是借齡不是提前退休就是達到退休的條件 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
321.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
342.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
中戶也不是中戶署長也不是體檢退休薛組長也不是體檢退休陳峰署長也不是體檢退休都不是你把握明確跟委員會講對他們就是依法退休對是依法退休不是要做體檢退休你要看這幾天有其他的機關被提早退休引鬧的灰黑洋洋喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
344.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
364.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
跟委員報告所以這三位都不是提早退休跟委員報告他們不是被提早退休那個是因為他們都有各自所以他們是自願提早退休都有各自因為每一位我都跟他懇談所以他們是自願的提前退休嘛對不對不是借領嘛不是借領是嗎是好所以這個因素我們在討論吼那是不是還有很多包含重規組訓練組有多位科長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
368.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
388.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
已經降調 只是已經請調降到降級 然後調到其他居公所去 有沒有有幾位 有幾位就好我們今年有兩位是有商調到其他機關 對但是他的商調了解的原因有些真的是因為家庭上的因素或是其他的因素他的主管都有去 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
391.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
409.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
他商調他調到那個單位有沒有志祺降級才有辦法調到那個單位有嘛對不對因為這個是有這個情形是有嘛是你說今年只有兩位你們在你們在中規組還有訓練組只有兩位而已嗎這兩組只有兩位今年對今年就兩位啊去年呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
413.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
435.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那個在去年齁去年在評調到其他機關是有16位16位對評調到其他機關16位16位所以書本部這樣這一兩年來講總共已經提前退休然後調離現職然後明明總總啦反正就這樣加起來總共有幾位 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
437.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
458.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我們大概如果以今年到目前大概有總共是36位這裡面含這個約用人員、臨時人員你什麼時候到今年?去年到今年是不是?只有今年只有今年就票了36位?36位阿去年有沒有辦法馬上做報告?對,去年有總共是有65位總共有65位嘛36加65,101嘛對不對?你們離開了101 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
464.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
488.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
對老化署有期待的同仁,你覺得這樣正常嗎?署長你自己跟部長講,跟委員會講,你覺得這樣正常嗎?跟委員報告,因為他的離開的原因真的是很多啦,有些是退休,有些是考試,所以他有離開,他離開有很多原因,所以你認定是正常就對了?這每一位我們其實都能看看。就是說在職場上,在公部的職場上,他是一個算是一個正常的樣態,你要回答我是這樣是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
490.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
504.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
部長請你慎重回答好不好署裡面因為他在北部北部因為各行政機關的職缺很多有時候這個選擇性確實是存在我要回到昨天記者會我看部長的說法裡面有一段話齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
506.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
533.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
認為有制度性人力缺乏問題是這樣嗎我想我在這個委會不只一次提起當然有人力缺乏的問題嘛所以我也希望部長要積極爭取這個人力的補給嘛但是如果像老花署這樣的單位自己的署本部單位兩年就掉了不到兩年就這樣請掉提前退休一百零一位然後我們再看到北分署 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
534.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
536.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以部長你講的系統性問題確實如此啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
565.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
585.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
確實如此啊那跟你自由性能力缺乏有什麼關係而且你知道喔北溫署是17個主管桃枝腰腰的你書本部有幾個主管還有副書長級的他需要提前退休還有幾個組長還有志願將級到地方公所去 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
594.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
606.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
誰會希望說在中央單位待好好又跑到地方的區公所去怎麼會有這個狀況部長你有深刻的去理解深刻去調查深刻去知道到底原因何在嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
607.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
630.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
委員我想喔就是這個管理風格的問題確實是要檢討啦是究竟是管理風格導致人留不住還是說這個勞動署本身是因為勞動條件太差這只有管理風格問題嗎如果是所謂的管理風格問題就會回到北溫署長的身上發生了這樣的憾事嘛在他的領導不統一之下嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
631.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
652.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這就是當然就是署本身領導者的責任嘛當然署長他的管理風格恰不恰當我會要他檢討好嗎對我也在這一次也一遍把他送考機會了我們會在這裡面來檢討他好不好這是考機問題嗎當然考機裡面你管理得不當也是一個問題啊也是一個評分的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
654.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
669.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
從署本部一直到分署被分署發生這樣的事情他是考機問題嗎?考機裡面包含了對你管理的這個你怎麼去管理這個機關這當然也是一個部長你到勞動部時間真的不長啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
670.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
688.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我知道很多事情你還要再去摸索再去理解嘛但是有時候有一件有發生這樣的憾事反而可以讓你更快速的了解到勞動部上上下下到底出了什麼樣的嚴重性的問題嘛對不對但是有時候當你知道這問題所在的時候你就是該斷則斷了 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
692.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
713.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
該段就要折斷了如果這單純是一個領導統一出這個問題我覺得我覺得這樣的延伸會很可怕應該也不是只有勞化署因為時間的關係我們從勞化署的世界裡面可以看到勞動部真的是真的是很嚴重出現的結構性問題最後再給部長看一個數據我為什麼講113.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
721.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
733.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我們都知道是81嘛,北溫署這兩年,不到兩年時間有81位的同仁,包含17位主管,要調理他其實他真正的數字是82了 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
736.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
757.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就包含11月4號這位這位生命不見的同仁他也有要請調他也走不了因為他同仁寫這篇文章我不想護送請部長你自己過目我都有看如果他當時請調順利的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
760.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
780.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
他當時如果不要因為跟同仁彼此之間這種感情的羈絆太甜就對了或許他請掉離開他是有生命的離開他今天是他今天也算是離開了啦但是是生命喪失的離開 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
788.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
806.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我最後是不是請銓敘部跟人事總處兩位單位來一下好不好你們這個一個單位、一個機關、一個機構人員異常的異動站在人事的管理上你們都沒有相關的預警機制嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
809.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
831.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
還是都是後知後覺我們如果保障這個辛苦考進來的這些國考的這些公務人員可以在職場上得到一定程度的這樣的一個保障而不是因為他們的主管機關領導同意出了問題然後就讓這個單位可以好像幾乎快瓦解了 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
833.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
833.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
報告．劉建國 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
864.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
893.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
你們上網公告是什麼資料?就是辭職,辭職嘛,啊調離的都沒有嗎?調離的部分我們現在正在跟,我們為了要讓資料更加精準,因為我們部裡面只有現在才要做?是因為這個事件才要做?不是,不是,在我們之前就已經在跟人事總處在密集的開會你們的之前是多久之前?從今年的6月份開始,我們就在處理這件事情你們6月份到現在還沒有辦法把這樣的機制建立完成? |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
893.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
912.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
因為這個部分涉及到WebHR的這個系統的建構我們要把它在系統上面我們已經有速發部了我們已經走到AI了創新行動內閣了你們從六月討論到現在連一個掌控所有單位的禮職的這樣的一個系統沒辦法建置起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
917.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
942.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
現在正在努力啦包括我們大概預計是在明年會完成要到明年因為這部分涉及到系統要徵修要發包要你們有系統可以馬上查閱到這個離職的嘛請辭的嘛辭職的嘛對不對你們有這個系統然後要有另外一個系統就是調職的還要到明年才能夠建設完成而且從6月討論到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
944.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
950.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這兩個系統加起來就可以把整個機關有送審和沒送審的人做一個完整的呈現那這兩個系統目前是不相容我們希望把他兩個系統能夠整合在一起所以到明年了我們盡量 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
968.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
997.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
要到明年 盡量希望能夠提前啦 這個部分我們不堅持很努力可以提前多早啊 時間到了 一個月可不可以一個月不行啦 那我到時候再拜託兩位召委我們再排特別針對你們的針對這些事情的整個疫情機制看怎樣來做回報好不好 OK一個月內我就請他們兩位召委一定要排來做這樣處理 好不好 好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
998.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
998.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好 謝謝 謝謝劉建國 |
| gazette.lineno |
706 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
劉委員建國：（10時26分）來，有請部長，蔡署長，你一併上來吧。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
劉委員建國：部長辛苦了。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
何部長佩珊：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
劉委員建國：這件事情從11月4號發生到現在，如果再處理不好，你會越來越苦，勞動部上上下下的同仁也一樣會越來越苦，會發生這樣的憾事絕對不是一個單一事件，所以你們的調查報告裡面，我覺得有很多討論的空間，雖然是外部委員的調查，但畢竟是經過您跟次長對外公開說明，所以你就必須要概括承受。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
何部長佩珊：當然、當然。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
劉委員建國：今天北分署發生這個憾事，會有這麼多執政黨的地方議員到現在還窮追不捨，也有執政黨的委員看不下去，今天蘇召委排這樣的專案報告，當然就是要趕快來釐清，不要讓這樣的憾事再持續發生下去，但是我們真的有這樣的決心、魄力跟反省，確實不要讓這樣的憾事再發生下去嗎？顯然在這個報告裡面，我說真的，看不出來，真的是看不出來。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，我…… |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
劉委員建國：我再講許傳盛次長有特別提到，這名分署長有凌晨1點、5點傳LINE在交辦事情，而且還規定在10分鐘內要回復，10分鐘內如果沒有回復，隔天就叫到辦公室去罵，這是你們的報告，是次長所講的，對不對？好，針對這一位已經失去生命的同仁，你們的報告裡面說這個分署長對他沒有霸凌，但在這個職場上，他確實有霸凌的行為，這不是很衝突、不是很矛盾？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，我剛剛已經解釋了，可以讓我解釋嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
劉委員建國：我再講一下啦！我一定給你時間解釋啦。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
何部長佩珊：好、是。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
劉委員建國：你們報告裡面說考量他的領導統御風格，與同仁互信破裂，若還要繼續執行職務，恐有爭議且對機關聲譽有重大之影響，建議先行調整職務。所以分署長的調離現職是因為他的領導統御，不是讓同仁命喪在這個辦公室，而且你們只是擔心他繼續執行職務，影響到機關的聲譽。是這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，他是一個機關的最高首長，他的任何行為一定會影響到每一個人，所以他有對一級主管…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
劉委員建國：會影響到每一個人，所以一定包含11月4號在自己辦公室結束生命的這個同仁。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
何部長佩珊：我想透過層層傳導也會的。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
劉委員建國：對嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
何部長佩珊：可是不是直接原因，不是直接他霸凌他，他中間還隔著兩位主管，就是我這一次也進行懲處的副分署長以及秘書室主任，這兩位主管才是直接督導這位離開的同仁，而謝分署長的確有對其他的一級主管進行霸凌，可是他是透過層層傳導的機制傳導到我們離開的同仁身上，應該是這麼說。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
劉委員建國：部長，我覺得你這麼講，我可以理解你對這件事情的認知跟感受啦，還有你在公部門職場相關的一些經驗，但是有些事情已經是整個系統出了很嚴重的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
何部長佩珊：對，我就是要凸顯系統性的問題，才去做這樣的調查。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
劉委員建國：這個系統性問題應該也不是只有北分署。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
何部長佩珊：是的。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
劉委員建國：連勞發署本身問題也非常嚴重，要不要問一下我們的署長，在他的任內中，鍾副署長、還有相關的多少同仁都被提早退休？有多少個科長級的現在從九職等、八職等自己調到地方區公所？署長，要不要對外說明一下？署已經出問題，分署哪有不出問題的道理？有沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們在今年，如果以今年來看，我們大概有3名同仁退休，其中…… |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
劉委員建國：對，都是屆齡？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
蔡署長孟良：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
劉委員建國：都是屆齡，不是提前退休？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
蔡署長孟良：就是達到退休的條件。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
劉委員建國：鍾副署長也不是提前退休？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
蔡署長孟良：對，他是…… |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
劉委員建國：薛組長也不是提前退休？陳分署長也不是提前退休？都不是？你把握？明確的跟委員會講。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
蔡署長孟良：他們就是依法退休…… |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
劉委員建國：對，是依法退休，不是叫做提前退休？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
蔡署長孟良：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
劉委員建國：你要看這幾天有其他機關被提早退休也鬧得沸沸揚揚喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
劉委員建國：所以這三位都不是提早退休？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，他們不是被提早退休，那個是因為他們都有…… |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
劉委員建國：所以他們是自願提早退休？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
蔡署長孟良：都有各自……因為每一位我都有跟他懇談。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
劉委員建國：所以他們是自願的提前退休，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
蔡署長孟良：對、是。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
劉委員建國：不是屆齡？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
蔡署長孟良：不是屆齡。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
劉委員建國：是嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
蔡署長孟良：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
劉委員建國：好。所以這個因素，我們再來討論啦，是不是還有很多，包含綜規組、訓練組有多位科長已經降調、請調，降級調到其他區公所去，有沒有？有幾位就好。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，我們今年有兩位是有商調到其他機關。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
劉委員建國：今年兩位？ |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
蔡署長孟良：對。但是他的商調我們了解原因，有些真的是因為家庭上的因素或是其他的因素，他的主管…… |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
劉委員建國：他商調有沒有等同降調？他商調調到那個單位，有沒有自己降級才有辦法調到那個單位？有嘛！對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
蔡署長孟良：因為是有這個情形。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
劉委員建國：是有嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
蔡署長孟良：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
劉委員建國：你說今年只有兩位？你們綜規組、訓練組只有兩位而已嗎？這兩組只有兩位，今年？ |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
蔡署長孟良：對，今年只有兩位。 |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
劉委員建國：去年呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
蔡署長孟良：去年平調到其他機關的是有16位。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
劉委員建國：16位？ |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
蔡署長孟良：對，平調到其他機關16位。 |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
劉委員建國：16位，所以署本部這一、兩年來，總共已經提前退休、調離現職，林林總總反正這樣加起來總共有幾位？ |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
蔡署長孟良：如果以今年到目前大概總共是36位，這裡面含約用人員、臨時人員。 |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
劉委員建國：你什麼時候到今年？去年到今年是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
蔡署長孟良：只有今年。 |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
劉委員建國：只有今年就調了36位？ |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
蔡署長孟良：36位。 |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
劉委員建國：去年的有沒有辦法馬上報告？ |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
蔡署長孟良：去年總共是有65位。 |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
劉委員建國：總共有65位，36加65是101，對不對？你們離開了101位對勞發署有期待的同仁，你覺得這樣正常嗎？署長，你自己跟部長講，跟委員會講，你覺得這樣正常嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為離開的原因真的很多，有些是退休，有些是考試分發…… |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
劉委員建國：離開有很多原因，所以你認定是正常就對了？ |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
蔡署長孟良：這每一位我們其實都有…… |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
劉委員建國：就是在職場上、在公部門職場上，這算是一個正常的樣態，你要回答我是這樣，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，因為我們…… |
| gazette.blocks[74][0] |
劉委員建國：署長，請你慎重回答，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[75][0] |
蔡署長孟良：因為署在北部，而北部各行政機關的職缺很多，所以有時候選擇性確實存在。 |
| gazette.blocks[76][0] |
劉委員建國：回到昨天的記者會，我們看部長的說法，裡面有一段話提到，認為這有制度性人力缺乏問題，是這樣嗎？我在這個委員會我不只一次提過，當然有人力缺乏的問題，所以我也希望部長要積極爭取人力的補給，但是如果像勞發署這樣的單位，自己的署本部單位不到兩年，請調、提前退休的有101位，然後我們再看北分署，也不遑多讓，異動人數從109年的19人、110年12人、111年18人、112年36人，到113年，你們給我的數字是45，等一下我再跟各位報告為什麼是46，再對照其他分署，並沒有像北分署這樣啊！沒有像署本部這樣啊！部長你說的系統性問題，確實如此啊！確實如此！那跟你制度性人力缺乏有什麼關係？而且你要知道，北分署是17個主管逃之夭夭，署本部有幾個主管？有副署長級要提前退休，還有幾個組長自願降級到地方公所，誰會在中央單位待得好好的，又跑到地方區公所去？怎麼會有這樣的狀況？部長，你有深刻去理解、深刻去調查、深刻去知道到底原因何在嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
何部長佩珊：委員，我想管理風格的問題確實要檢討，究竟是管理風格導致人留不住，還是勞發署本身勞動條件太差…… |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
劉委員建國：只有管理風格的問題嗎？如果是所謂的管理風格問題，那就回到北分署署長身上，在他的領導統御之下，發生了這樣的憾事，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
何部長佩珊：這當然就是署本身領導者的責任，當然署長的管理風格恰不恰當，我會要他檢討，然後這一次我也會一併把他送考績會，我們會在這裡面來檢討他，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
劉委員建國：這是考績問題嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
何部長佩珊：當然，在考績部分，管理不當也是一個評分標準。 |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
劉委員建國：這個單位這麼多人調動、調職，自願降調，從署本部一直到分署，北分署發生這樣的事情，是考績問題嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
何部長佩珊：考績也包含管理的一面，你怎麼去管理這個機關，當然也是一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
劉委員建國：部長，你到勞動部的時間真的不長，我知道很多事情你還在摸索、理解，但是有時候發生了這樣的憾事，反而可以讓你更快速了解勞動部上上下下到底出了什麼嚴重問題，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
何部長佩珊：是，是。 |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
劉委員建國：有時候當你知道問題所在時，你就要該斷則斷。 |
| gazette.blocks[87][0] |
何部長佩珊：是，我了解，我了解。 |
| gazette.blocks[88][0] |
劉委員建國：該斷就要斷啊！如果單純只是一個領導統御出問題，我覺得這樣的問題衍生會很可怕，應該也不是只有勞發署。因為時間關係，我們從勞發署的事件可以看到勞動部真的是嚴重出現了結構性問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[88][1] |
我再給部長看一個數據，為什麼我講113年是46位？我們都知道北分署這兩年、不到兩年時間，有81位同仁，包含17位主管調離職位，其實真正的數字是82位，就包含11月4號這位生命不見的同仁，他也有請調，但他走不了，他的同仁寫了這篇文章，我不想複誦，請部長你自己過目。 |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
何部長佩珊：我都有看，我都有看。 |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
劉委員建國：好，如果他當時請調順利的話，如果不要因為跟同仁彼此之間感情的羈絆，就是相挺，或許他請調離開，他是有生命的離開，他今天也算是離開了，但是是生命喪失的離開。 |
| gazette.blocks[90][1] |
最後請教銓敘部和人事總處兩個單位，對於一個單位、一個機關、一個機構人員異常的異動，站在人事管理上，你們沒有相關預警機制嗎？還是都是後知後覺？ |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
雷司長諶：報告委員，我們之前是…… |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
劉委員建國：你們如何保障？讓這些辛苦經過國考考進來的公務人員，可以在職場上得到一定程度的保障，而不是因為他們的主管機關領導統御出了問題，然後就讓這個單位幾乎好像要瓦解了，有時候這個不是缺乏人力的問題，是這個主管要讓這個機關瓦解，那站在兩個單位的立場，你們怎麼看待這個事情？有沒有什麼預警機制？還是完全都沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
雷司長諶：報告委員，我們目前是有針對每年各機關的辭職情形做統計，然後會上網公告，我們覺得一年的時間比較久，而且我們部裡面掌握的只有銓敘審定的人數…… |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
劉委員建國：你們有上網公告？你們上網公告是什麼資料？ |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
雷司長諶：就是辭職、辭職率…… |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
劉委員建國：辭職嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
雷司長諶：對，對。 |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
劉委員建國：調離的沒有嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
雷司長諶：調離的部分，為了要讓資料更加精準，因為我們部裡只有銓敍審定的…… |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
劉委員建國：現在才要做？是因為這個事件才要做？ |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
雷司長諶：不是，不是，在之前我們就已經有跟人事總處密集開會，我們要…… |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
劉委員建國：你們的之前是多久之前？ |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
雷司長諶：從今年6月份開始，我們就有在處理這件事情。 |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
劉委員建國：6月份到現在，還沒有辦法把這樣的機制建立完成？ |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
雷司長諶：因為這個部分涉及到WebHR系統的建構，我們要把它在系統上面…… |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
劉委員建國：我們已經有數發部了，已經走到AI、創新行動內閣，你們從6月討論到現在，連一個掌控所有單位離職情形的一個系統都沒辦法建置起來？ |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
雷司長諶：現在正在努力啦！預計大概明年會完成。 |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
劉委員建國：要到明年？ |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
雷司長諶：這部分涉及到系統要增修、發包，要…… |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
劉委員建國：你們有系統可以馬上查閱到請辭…… |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
雷司長諶：辭職和調動有，但是…… |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
劉委員建國：辭職的，對不對？你們有這個系統，然後還要有另外一個調職的系統，這要到明年才有辦法建置完成，而且從6月討論到現在，這太離譜了！ |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
雷司長諶：報告委員，銓敘部是銓敘審定的部分，人事總處那邊會有WebHR，他們有未送審人員，這兩個系統加起來，就可以把整個機關有送審和沒送審的人員做完整的呈現，而這兩個系統目前不相容，所以我們是希望把這兩個系統整合在一起。 |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
劉委員建國：所以要到明年？ |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
雷司長諶：我們希望儘量可以提前，這個部分我們部裡面很努力…… |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
劉委員建國：對啦！那可以提前多早？簡單一句話，我時間到了，一個月，可不可以？ |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
雷司長諶：一個月可能…… |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
劉委員建國：一個月不行？到時候我再拜託兩位召委排案，特別針對你們這部分的整個預警機制，看要怎麼回報。 |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
雷司長諶：我們儘速來處理。 |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
劉委員建國：一個月內我請他們兩位召委一定要排，做這樣的處理，好不好？謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
主席：好，謝謝劉建國委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[121][1] |
休息10分鐘。 |
| gazette.blocks[121][2] |
休息（10時42分） |
| gazette.blocks[121][3] |
繼續開會（10時54分） |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
主席：我們繼續開會。 |
| gazette.blocks[122][1] |
請黃秀芳委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
360 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-2-26-9 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
陳昭姿 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
陳菁徽 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
林淑芬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
王正旭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
林月琴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
邱鎮軍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
王育敏 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
楊曜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
涂權吉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
盧縣一 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
廖偉翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
徐巧芯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
葉元之 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
邱若華 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[28] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[29] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[30] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[31] |
林倩綺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[32] |
羅廷瑋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[33] |
張雅琳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[34] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[35] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[36] |
柯志恩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[37] |
萬美玲 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
231 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-11-20 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
11310201 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
11310201_00010 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試
院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作
業」進行專題報告，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
11310201_00012 |