| IVOD_ID |
154866 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154866 |
| 日期 |
2024-09-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-2-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第2會期第1次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
2 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第2會期第1次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-09-24T09:48:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-09-24T10:18:49+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:30:49 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| gazette.lineno |
270 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
羅委員智強：（9時48分）主席，有請行政院院長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。 |
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卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。 |
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羅委員智強：院長好。我想請教一下，我唸一句話「對總預算有意見，有幾種處理的方式包括退回總預算、修正、說明、通過或擇期再議」，這句話誰說的？ |
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卓院長榮泰：委員說的。 |
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羅委員智強：這句話是2003年柯建銘說的，偉大的柯總召說的。我想請教您，在2008年曾經民進黨提案要退回馬英九政府的總預算，請問你知道提案人是誰嗎？我告訴你…… |
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卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。 |
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羅委員智強：是當時的民進黨黨團幹事長賴清德。說真的，跟院長說一下，有點感慨啦！全世界、全臺灣都知道民進黨雙標，但也不要雙標得這麼明顯啦！柯建銘自己都說對總預算有意見可以退回啊！現在民進黨總預算被退回了，我現在看到網路上很多謠言，包括民進黨很多人站出來，把國家說得好像要滅亡一樣。如果退回總預算有這麼禍國殃民，那麼民進黨是不是要先發個聲明來譴責一下賴清德總統呢？因為他以前也想退馬英九總統的總預算啊！還是民進黨的邏輯是：退民進黨的總預算叫傷天害理，退國民黨的總預算就是天公地道？不要這麼雙標可以嗎？院長。 |
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卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，對於總預算被退回，我只有兩個字，感覺「遺憾」。過去我覺得不管什麼時候…… |
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羅委員智強：好啦，謝謝你對柯建銘「遺憾」，也謝謝你對賴清德「遺憾」！ |
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卓院長榮泰：過去不管什麼時候總預算被退回，這對於我們行政單位…… |
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羅委員智強：我現在想要問你下一個問題…… |
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卓院長榮泰：應該也會做同樣的表達。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
羅委員智強：沒關係啦，你要努力打臉柯建銘跟賴清德，我也尊重啦！畢竟你是賴清德的愛將嘛！你這麼愛賴清德，愛到去打臉他，我也接受啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[13][1] |
那我想請教一下，其實在野黨退行政院總預算也不是師出無名啊！今天我跟你講，行政院提的很多預算、過去預算的使用也有很多人不滿意吧？院長，是不是？ |
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卓院長榮泰：可以實質地審查、討論。 |
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羅委員智強：對嘛！也有人不滿意嘛！可以檢討嘛！對不對？你知道有一個人非常不滿意喔！我很尊敬他，他超級不滿意，他對民進黨過去預算執行的做法很不滿意喔！你知道是誰嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
羅委員智強：就是卓榮泰院長你自己啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[17][1] |
9月16號，有關民進黨過去在反詐宣導標案上，民視電視臺拿走高達94%的預算，院長當時是不是說過：真的過度集中在某個廠商的話，不是廠商的問題，是政府的問題。你有沒有這樣說過？ |
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卓院長榮泰：沒有錯。 |
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羅委員智強：未來不允許這樣的情形！你有沒有這樣說過？ |
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卓院長榮泰：是的。 |
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羅委員智強：對啊，所以你自己都知道民進黨過去的預算執行、使用有問題，在野黨來為您把關、好好監督人民的荷包，也是遂行我們卓院長的意志啊！所以難道只許榮泰不滿，不准在野退回嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我發現問題，我們是解決問題，退回解決不了問題。 |
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羅委員智強：好啦！你今天不滿叫做解決問題，我們不滿就叫製造問題…… |
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卓院長榮泰：退回解決不了問題…… |
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羅委員智強：謝謝你！再繼續…… |
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卓院長榮泰：實質審查才…… |
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羅委員智強：你不要再打臉賴清德跟柯建銘！我真的是…… |
| gazette.blocks[27][1] |
我代替賴清德跟柯建銘求求你啦！不要再打臉他們了啦！ |
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卓院長榮泰：當時的行政機關也會這樣表達啊！ |
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羅委員智強：又是時空環境不同！我知道！幫你講啦！ |
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那我跟你講啊，剛剛我們偉大的卓院長這麼樣反省所謂標案集中的問題，你知道嗎？立法院預算中心有說，政府各個機關媒體宣傳多以限制性招標的方式，部分得標廠商過度集中，你有注意到這個問題嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
卓院長榮泰：如果這個是產生問題的原因，我們就要把這個原因檢討之後，從新的方式來做…… |
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羅委員智強：謝謝！謝謝！新的方式！我待會兒跟你講新的方式。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][1] |
那你知道農業部限制性招標的比例多少嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。 |
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羅委員智強：你要新的方式，鑑往知來，過去怎麼做的方式都不知道，新的方式不容易找到啦！我告訴你，99.99%是限制性招標！衛福部多少？99.82%！勞動部多少？99.47%！內政部多少？98.25%！ |
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卓院長榮泰：委員，請部長來說明。 |
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羅委員智強：國發會多少？ |
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卓院長榮泰：請部長來說明。 |
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羅委員智強：百分之百啊！ |
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卓院長榮泰：請部長來說明，讓委員瞭解為什麼要這樣用。 |
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羅委員智強：沒關係啦，部長待會兒…… |
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可以、可以，全部列在你後面，來，全部都站出來！部長，你講啊！我們的衛福部、農業部、勞動部、內政部、法務部、國發會主管，院長請你們全部上來。 |
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好，沒關係，我要跟你講！我就要講新方法啦！鑑往知來，檢討過去才能策勵未來嘛！對不對？ |
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卓院長榮泰：是。 |
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羅委員智強：那很簡單啊！預算94.04%，這個叫什麼？花人民錢、洗人民腦，我用白話文說，就是養友綠媒體嘛！ |
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卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。 |
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羅委員智強：就是養友綠媒體！ |
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沒關係，待會兒我講完再問他，給他回答。 |
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所以我跟你講，我有一個很好的建設性方案。現在我跟各位講，請問院長，你知道我們的媒體政策及業務宣導費明年編列多少嗎？ |
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不會這個不知道吧？ |
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卓院長榮泰：全部政府嗎？ |
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羅委員智強：對啊！ |
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卓院長榮泰：全部政府編列的數字增加了9.5億，一共十四點多億。 |
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羅委員智強：好啦！我跟你講，沒關係啦！可是院長對數字還是要稍微盯一下。 |
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14億9,288萬，較今年增加5.9億元，暴增65%！我不知道耶！卓院長，你都對過去的做法覺得很有問題，對不對？太過集中！94%集中在特定媒體、99%是限制性招標，結果我不知道我們的政府哪來的自信，還可以增加65%的預算讓你去洗腦啊！ |
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卓院長榮泰：三句話跟委員解釋，14.93億是我們預算數編列的數字，是編列數，你說的…… |
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羅委員智強：好啦、好啦！我跟你講，謝謝你啦！ |
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卓院長榮泰：9.7億元是去年審查之後的…… |
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羅委員智強：好啦，沒關係啦！我告訴你…… |
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卓院長榮泰：法定預算數。 |
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羅委員智強：沒關係，我跟你講…… |
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卓院長榮泰：第三句話…… |
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羅委員智強：好啦，謝謝啦！ |
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卓院長榮泰：去年的編列數是十一點多億，去年跟今年的編列數只增加3.3億。 |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
羅委員智強：我告訴你，我還是回到令我尊敬的9月16號的卓院長，關鍵跟你編列數跟你現在的成長數，我告訴你，沒有正相關，真正相關是什麼？你要讓政府今天真真正正善用人民納稅的錢，就是把你過去沒做好的，把它扣掉啦！對不對？ |
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卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的…… |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
羅委員智強：你94%的預算集中給特定媒體，我就砍你94%的預算啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的指導。 |
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羅委員智強：這樣子，剩下6%，你會不會好好運用？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你不用尊敬我，你相信我就可以。 |
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羅委員智強：我相信你，我也尊敬你…… |
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卓院長榮泰：好，那9月14號我說的話…… |
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羅委員智強：但是我只限於相信9月16號的卓榮泰啦！ |
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卓院長榮泰：我們會落實在預算的執行當中。 |
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羅委員智強：今天你到目前為止表現，我有點疑慮啦！ |
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卓院長榮泰：9月14號我說的話，我們會落實在未來預算執行當中。 |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
羅委員智強：好啦！我跟卓院長講，砍到你行政院預算，你就會立場有點改變，沒有關係啦！但是我跟你講，立法院幫人民把守荷包，是我們天職嘛！對不對？過去你都承認集中預算、標案這樣是不對的！ |
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卓院長榮泰：我們發現問題啊！ |
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羅委員智強：我就用這個做預算指標來看看行政院未來預算該怎麼編嘛！你太集中的，我就砍嘛！回應民意，每一分每一毛都是人民的納稅錢啊，你都斤斤計較原住民禁伐補償了，對不對？20億，你那麼計較！ |
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卓院長榮泰：不是斤斤計較，那是預算編列原則的問題…… |
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羅委員智強：那我跟你講，行政院的文宣預算亂用，我砍一砍，拿去給原住民用，我也覺得開心，原住民也開心，陳瑩也開心，伍麗華也開心啊！ |
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卓院長榮泰：那是預算編列的原則問題，要合法合憲。 |
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羅委員智強：你的原則啊！浪費如果作為原則，我無法接受啦！我再跟你講，我們講師出有名，我跟你講，整個預算書我也看了，大致粗略的看了一下，真的問題很多，你知道吧？院長，在野立委是幫你把關，找出很多的問題。 |
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卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們各個部會都很用心編列…… |
| gazette.blocks[77][0] |
羅委員智強：來，我跟你講，我要講下一個問題…… |
| gazette.blocks[78][0] |
卓院長榮泰：要實質審查，告訴我們的意見，我們都會尊重。 |
| gazette.blocks[79][0] |
羅委員智強：來，沒關係，我們一個一個講，真的我講三天三夜也講不完，但我只舉幾個比較好玩的例子啊！我們大家一起當作一個有趣的事情來共同探討一下。我想請教一下，剛剛張啓楷委員就對您的官邸電費暴增，他覺得很有意見，他就說你們是在挖比特礦、比特幣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[80][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我剛剛說這種比喻不對。 |
| gazette.blocks[81][0] |
羅委員智強：當然你不認同嘛！你覺得這樣的說法不好，我也不認同，怎麼會是挖比特幣呢？是在養北極熊啊！什麼挖比特幣，是養北極熊啊！我再問我們的卓院長，我想問一下，你比較怕熱，還是陳建仁比較怕熱？ |
| gazette.blocks[82][0] |
卓院長榮泰：一樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[83][0] |
羅委員智強：一樣啊？不、不、不，我覺得你比較怕熱。你有沒有看過X戰警？ |
| gazette.blocks[84][0] |
卓院長榮泰：X戰警？ |
| gazette.blocks[85][0] |
羅委員智強：X戰警。 |
| gazette.blocks[86][0] |
卓院長榮泰：他不怕熱啊！ |
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羅委員智強：X戰警不怕熱？錯！X戰警有一個人很怕熱，誰？你知道嗎？ |
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卓院長榮泰：我不知道。 |
| gazette.blocks[89][0] |
羅委員智強：冰人很怕熱啦！冰人在X戰警裡面就是被火噴死的，很怕熱啦！你可以去應徵X戰警的冰人，我們的陳建仁可以應徵X戰警的火人，火人不怕熱，你超級怕熱，你一個電費可以比陳建仁多50%，到底發生什麼事？ |
| gazette.blocks[90][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我剛剛已經答復過張啓楷委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[91][0] |
羅委員智強：我知道，你說要檢討，我們幫你檢討嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[92][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我用的時間並不多。 |
| gazette.blocks[93][0] |
羅委員智強：你用的時間並不多，比他還多50%？ |
| gazette.blocks[94][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是，所以我回去檢查這個電力是不是…… |
| gazette.blocks[95][0] |
羅委員智強：6月到8月不是你用的？ |
| gazette.blocks[96][0] |
卓院長榮泰：電器是不是有問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[97][0] |
羅委員智強：不是，6月到8月是不是你用的嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[98][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我一個禮拜只有兩個晚上…… |
| gazette.blocks[99][0] |
羅委員智強：今年6月到8月是多少？你花多少度電？快兩萬度？ |
| gazette.blocks[100][0] |
卓院長榮泰：對，所以比過去多了…… |
| gazette.blocks[101][0] |
羅委員智強：15萬？去年6月到8月陳建仁花多少度，1萬5,000度？10萬？ |
| gazette.blocks[102][0] |
卓院長榮泰：今年多了3,900度…… |
| gazette.blocks[103][0] |
羅委員智強：對啊！那我說你當冰人蠻適合的啊！X戰警冰人非你莫屬。 |
| gazette.blocks[103][1] |
所以我講第二件事了啊！你覺得我講你們預算編列沒有道理嗎？今天民眾質疑沒有道理嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[104][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我會檢討。 |
| gazette.blocks[105][0] |
羅委員智強：我再講第三個啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[106][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我會檢討官邸電器的檢查…… |
| gazette.blocks[107][0] |
羅委員智強：來，沒關係，我現在考你一個自然保育常識題啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[108][0] |
卓院長榮泰：希望能夠儘速讓大家清楚，因為實際上用電並沒有那麼多…… |
| gazette.blocks[109][0] |
羅委員智強：沒有，我現在來考考我們卓院長的國際觀，也跟預算有關。請問北海道是黑熊的棲息地，還是棕熊的棲息地？北海道是黑熊的棲息地，還是棕熊的棲息地？難倒你了啦！對不對？我給你一個暗示，臺灣是黑熊棲息地，還是棕熊棲息地？ |
| gazette.blocks[110][0] |
卓院長榮泰：臺灣黑熊比較有名。 |
| gazette.blocks[111][0] |
羅委員智強：黑熊嘛！對不對？那越北方，你知道哪一種熊比較在北方一點的？北海道是誰的棲息地？ |
| gazette.blocks[112][0] |
卓院長榮泰：也有白熊啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[113][0] |
羅委員智強：北極熊就是你們行政院官邸養的，我知道啦！那是到北極去了。棕熊啦！北海道是棕熊棲息地啦！我問你喔！如果今天政府編一筆預算，說我偉大的政府超級關心國際的生態保育，我要到北海道去考察黑熊保育，這個預算如果院長看了，舌頭會不會掉下來啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[114][0] |
卓院長榮泰：叫他更改，去考察棕熊。 |
| gazette.blocks[115][0] |
羅委員智強：很好啊！理由都亂編啊！就在預算書裡面，當然不是行政院啦！也不能算給你，是監察院，監察院編一筆預算，說到北海道考察黑熊保育，我都快昏了，黑熊保育跟監察院業務什麼關係啊？是第一個問號。第二個，跑到人家日本北海道，人家明明是棕熊棲息地，結果考察黑熊。我跟院長說，我剛剛講過了，今年的總預算是歷史新高吧？是吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[116][0] |
卓院長榮泰：因為國人非常努力，歲入有比較高，我們有餘裕…… |
| gazette.blocks[117][0] |
羅委員智強：我覺得今天我們要努力幫老百姓把關，這是我們的天職，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[118][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[119][0] |
羅委員智強：所以我剛剛隨便舉就三個例子，然後接下來我們再講下一個啦！好不好？下一個，今天我們講退回總預算，對不對？原因之一就是因為行政院沒有編足我們立法院三讀通過的原住民禁伐補償條例的預算，對不對？是啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[120][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這個是原因。 |
| gazette.blocks[121][0] |
羅委員智強：原因之一啦！對不對？那我想請問，你不編足這21億，我剛剛隨便講那些東西加起來，也真的是……夯不啷噹，包括政府的電費大增啊！什麼大增啊！說真的，原住民的禁伐補償這麼多年沒調整，我們對原住民總要有點交代嘛！對不對？你知道這個禁伐補償條例提出來，你知道是誰提案的嗎？誰提案的？ |
| gazette.blocks[122][0] |
陳部長駿季：高金素梅委員提案的。 |
| gazette.blocks[123][0] |
羅委員智強：何止高金素梅，還有陳瑩跟伍麗華。院長，我真的跟你講啦！今天這一件事情沒有那麼難解決，只要院長有一顆柔軟的心，對原住民有一點柔軟的心，你對立法院立的國家法律、三讀通過的法律有一顆柔軟的心，你就直接跟在野黨溝通，你就溝通，今天既然三讀通過對原住民、對農民的照顧，行政院絕對努力的把預算編足，來對伍麗華交代、來對陳瑩交代，院長願不願意？ |
| gazette.blocks[124][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們絕對有柔軟的心，但是在柔軟之前…… |
| gazette.blocks[125][0] |
羅委員智強：做不到？ |
| gazette.blocks[126][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們對憲法跟法定的預算程序…… |
| gazette.blocks[127][0] |
羅委員智強：好柔軟啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[128][0] |
卓院長榮泰：必須要維護。 |
| gazette.blocks[129][0] |
羅委員智強：好柔軟。 |
| gazette.blocks[130][0] |
卓院長榮泰：必須要維護。 |
| gazette.blocks[131][0] |
羅委員智強：好柔軟，在你的柔軟心之下，把原住民踩在腳底下，你叫民進黨的立委怎麼到原住民選區去面對…… |
| gazette.blocks[132][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員，這樣的講法不公平。 |
| gazette.blocks[133][0] |
羅委員智強：沒有關係，我跟你講…… |
| gazette.blocks[134][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們照顧的是全民。 |
| gazette.blocks[135][0] |
羅委員智強：今天總預算退回，起因之一是禁伐補償條例，那我今天也知道院長的態度，沒關係，反正原住民的票或原住民的福利、原住民的福祉、原住民的權益，原住民過去所謂的正義…… |
| gazette.blocks[136][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這不是黨派的問題，不是哪一個委員、哪一個黨的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[137][0] |
羅委員智強：講的非常好！原住民，連民進黨也有原住民立委…… |
| gazette.blocks[138][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以這個是憲法給予行政院編列預算，預算完整性的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[139][0] |
羅委員智強：好啦！接下來我想請教您，柯建銘就說要去釋憲嘛！是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[140][0] |
卓院長榮泰：黨團也可以有這樣的釋憲。 |
| gazette.blocks[141][0] |
羅委員智強：請問你們行政院要不要也來釋憲一下？ |
| gazette.blocks[142][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我們還是希望能夠順利的付委，實質的審查。 |
| gazette.blocks[143][0] |
羅委員智強：所以你也不太認同柯建銘的釋憲主張？你們還是不打算走釋憲的路？ |
| gazette.blocks[144][0] |
卓院長榮泰：黨團可以有這樣的思維跟主張啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[145][0] |
羅委員智強：我要跟院長說，今天政府創下歷史新高的預算，增加了4,000多億，連一個對原住民柔軟的心都沒有，然後現在到處有很多謠言，說什麼總預算被退回，社福支出什麼都不見了。我講一個東西給院長聽，看你認不認同，這是我們現在法律的狀況，即便總預算被退回，法律性的所謂支出，法律義務支出其實也是不受影響，包括社會保險補助、教育經費補助、地方補助大概占六成，如果真的沒有收到補助，反而是行政機關怠惰、侵害人民權益。至於非法律義務的支出，根據預算法第五十四條之規定，國會就算沒有在法定期限內通過預算審查，行政部門可以依照上一年度的預算先執行。 |
| gazette.blocks[145][1] |
我真的說實在話，民進黨不要一天到晚搞認知作戰，這件事的起因就是民進黨政府對國家法律的不尊重、預算濫編，我隨便講就有那麼多預算濫編的例子，然後加上今天我們必須為原住民伸張，所以這個事情搞了半天，如果真的要讓總預算不被退，我們就去審，看看我們到底該到北海道去考察黑熊還是棕熊？對原住民謙卑就解決了啦！我想請教您下一個問題…… |
| gazette.blocks[146][0] |
卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們對原民會的預算今年增加了12%。 |
| gazette.blocks[147][0] |
羅委員智強：院長，根據各大機構的民調，包括臺灣民意基金會等等的民調，臺灣民眾普遍對司法沒有信心，你知道原因是什麼嗎？我跟你講，一個跟死刑有關，一個是偵查不公開變成偵查大公開啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[147][1] |
我想再請教您下一個問題，民進黨在黨綱的「自由人權」章裡面直接寫「研議廢止死刑的可行性」，院長，你贊成廢除死刑嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[148][0] |
卓院長榮泰：對不起，再說一次黨綱。 |
| gazette.blocks[149][0] |
羅委員智強：我跟你講，我剛剛問問題的時候……好啦！沒關係，您先喝口水，先緩和一下，喝口水沒關係，然後我再重問我的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[149][1] |
謝謝院長，民進黨在黨綱的「自由人權章」直接寫「研議廢止死刑的可行性」，院長你贊成廢除死刑嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[150][0] |
卓院長榮泰：黨綱這麼寫是研議它的可行性，現在的可行、不可行在憲法法庭之後，它就是一個標準，我們要在這個標準底下…… |
| gazette.blocks[151][0] |
羅委員智強：您贊成廢除死刑嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[152][0] |
卓院長榮泰：現在大法官在憲法法庭所作出來的決定就是我們的共同標準。 |
| gazette.blocks[153][0] |
羅委員智強：院長，我一直很欣賞你，我覺得你是個有擔當的人，連這句話你都答不出來，沒關係，那我就問你下一題。你知道依照國內目前的多項民調，多數人贊成廢除死刑，還是反對廢除死刑？ |
| gazette.blocks[154][0] |
卓院長榮泰：依照民調的結果，贊成死刑的是比較多。 |
| gazette.blocks[155][0] |
羅委員智強：對啊！台灣民意基金會84%反對廢死，中華人權協會也是，這兩個都是今年的民調，有80%反對廢死。那我想請問你，在這麼強大的反廢死民意之下，你贊成大法官用憲法解釋的方式廢除死刑嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[156][0] |
卓院長榮泰：第一個，它的解釋是有條件的合憲，下面訴諸了很多條件，我們現在行政機關就是在這個條件底下，如何逐一去執行。 |
| gazette.blocks[157][0] |
羅委員智強：沒關係，你的回答就是我下一個要問的問題。你贊成大法官用憲法解釋的方式，表面說死刑合憲，但又用有條件的方式設下十八銅人陣的超高門檻來達到實質廢死嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[158][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我不能說同意、不同意，因為大法官解釋出來，我們就只能作社會共通的標準。我們在研究行政部門該做的，比方說兩年內該修很多的法，我們要不要去做…… |
| gazette.blocks[159][0] |
羅委員智強：蔡英文政府的法務部長曾經主張死刑的存廢應該由立法院透過修法的方式決定，不應由大法官來解釋，你認同這樣的主張嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[160][0] |
卓院長榮泰：部長說說看。 |
| gazette.blocks[161][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，法務部在這一次死刑憲法訴訟的言詞辯論，一直主張死刑制度是合憲的。 |
| gazette.blocks[162][0] |
羅委員智強：認不認同蔡清祥？ |
| gazette.blocks[163][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：當然我們知道死刑這個議題是社會意見紛陳，我們也是認為…… |
| gazette.blocks[164][0] |
羅委員智強：很好。其實我也問過你，你也是認為要用立法，對不對？這次大法官對死刑的憲法判決，社會有很大的質疑喔！認為大法官雖然宣布死刑合憲，但其實已經是實質廢死了，你覺得大法官已經實質廢死了嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[165][0] |
卓院長榮泰：在滿足所列的狀況、條件底下，應該是有執行的空間。 |
| gazette.blocks[166][0] |
羅委員智強：我再講一個更具體、更直觀的指標，有沒有實質廢死就看死刑有沒有執行，對不對？這樣好了，更具體一點，如果到2028年賴清德總統任滿之前，你覺得死刑有執行的可能性嗎？目前有37個死刑定讞的死刑犯，死刑有執行的可能性嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[167][0] |
卓院長榮泰：裡面有很多必須在2年內完成修法…… |
| gazette.blocks[168][0] |
羅委員智強：我直接跟你講，我告訴你，零啦！不會有啦！我很篤斷地說，我們到…… |
| gazette.blocks[169][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員為什麼有這樣…… |
| gazette.blocks[170][0] |
羅委員智強：到2028年5月19日不管你還在不在院長這個位置上，我們把我今天講的這個話打開來看看，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[171][0] |
卓院長榮泰：委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[172][0] |
羅委員智強：社會大眾就認為已經實質廢死了啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[173][0] |
卓院長榮泰：相關的不管是刑事訴訟法或者監獄行刑法…… |
| gazette.blocks[174][0] |
羅委員智強：我為什麼這樣講？不是沒有憑證…… |
| gazette.blocks[175][0] |
卓院長榮泰：2年修法完成之後，它是有空間的，現在我們就……逐條討論…… |
| gazette.blocks[176][0] |
羅委員智強：那我就問法務部長，部長，你要不要找一天來司法及法制委員會報告一下接下來37名死刑犯的非常上訴你打算怎麼應對，以及他們的死刑執行，你打算怎麼應對？你這個可不要推大法官，大法官現在是說合憲喔！既然合憲，就執行啊！執不執行？要不要依法執行？ |
| gazette.blocks[177][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：我們是依法辦理，我一直強調依法辦理…… |
| gazette.blocks[178][0] |
羅委員智強：很好，沒關係啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[179][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個部分因為目前的階段就是要先由最高檢察署來審核…… |
| gazette.blocks[180][0] |
羅委員智強：沒關係，所以我跟你講，我第一個跟卓院長講，2028之前，賴清德任滿之前，我不認為有任何死刑會執行，就是實質廢死，但會不會有死刑執行？這個問號也不用卓院長回答，就是法務部長，因為現在是法務部的事了，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[181][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個我們就依法來辦理。 |
| gazette.blocks[182][0] |
羅委員智強：對啊！所以我也會請我們司法及法制委員會的召委請你來做個專案報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[183][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：初步…… |
| gazette.blocks[184][0] |
羅委員智強：好好跟國人解釋一下我們是不是實質廢死。 |
| gazette.blocks[184][1] |
我跟院長說，我講是不是實質廢死？我跟你講，不是沒有根據的，現在要判死是不是很難？院長，你對相關數據有概念嗎？我直接講，司法院殺人案件量刑系統統計，犯下刑法第兩百七十一條普通殺人罪的罪犯，你知道有百分之多少會被判死嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[185][0] |
卓院長榮泰：4%。 |
| gazette.blocks[186][0] |
羅委員智強：對，我上面已經秀給你看了，可是在過去5年，過去5年誰執政？誰執政？民進黨執政。476件殺人確定案件只有1件死刑定讞，所以是降到千分之二，1,000件殺人案件只有2個兇嫌會判死，所以還不用大法官設門檻，現狀要判就不容易了，死刑要定讞很難，但要執行死刑，我跟你講更難，你知道過去4年來，從2020年5月到現在，請問政府有沒有執行過死刑？上面有，我都很大方的啦！我也不想用這種方式突襲院長…… |
| gazette.blocks[187][0] |
卓院長榮泰：零件。 |
| gazette.blocks[188][0] |
羅委員智強：沒有，零啦！那我想請問，我就不算現在的賴總統，我們最近的三位總統，你知道陳水扁任內執行多少個死刑嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[189][0] |
卓院長榮泰：那有執行過。 |
| gazette.blocks[190][0] |
羅委員智強：32個，馬英九任內多少個？33個，蔡英文任內多少個？2個，難不難？賴清德到現在為止幾個？當然是零啦！可是我直接跟你講，賴清德就是零，一路零到底，是不是實質廢死？其實判準很簡單，我們就看著法務部接下來對於37位死刑定讞的（所謂的死刑犯）作法到底是什麼，到底實質廢死是大法官實質廢死，還是今天卓榮泰內閣（行政院）實質廢死？人民都睜大眼睛在看喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[191][0] |
卓院長榮泰：報告委員，大法官是有條件合憲，行政機關就是在這個條件底下…… |
| gazette.blocks[192][0] |
羅委員智強：我講的是結果論。 |
| gazette.blocks[193][0] |
卓院長榮泰：對，行政機關就在這個條件底下要依法行政。 |
| gazette.blocks[194][0] |
羅委員智強：好啦！行政機關推大法官，大法官推行政機關，但是我跟你講，為什麼我今天已經沒有興趣去管你到底是大法官推給行政機關，還是行政機關推給大法官？我們今天站在這裡真的是對那些無辜枉死的被害人還有被害者家屬感到深深的沉痛！ |
| gazette.blocks[195][0] |
卓院長榮泰：憲法法庭也說2年內要完成很多法律的修改，這不只是行政院的責任，大院也應該可以在這個時間內跟行政院互相來配合…… |
| gazette.blocks[196][0] |
羅委員智強：沒關係啊！所以修法工作我們好好做，我跟法務部繼續參商啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[196][1] |
接下來我想要請教一下，大法官說犯罪情節屬最嚴重之罪才能判死，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[197][0] |
卓院長榮泰：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[198][0] |
羅委員智強：那麼如果犯下情節最嚴重的罪，就應該要考慮死刑，我想請問標準在哪裡？ |
| gazette.blocks[199][0] |
卓院長榮泰：你說情節最嚴重？ |
| gazette.blocks[200][0] |
羅委員智強：我舉個例子，姦殺、殺警察、殺父母、殺小孩，嚴重危害社會治安，這些算不算犯罪情節嚴重？ |
| gazette.blocks[201][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：這個是算非常嚴重的。 |
| gazette.blocks[202][0] |
卓院長榮泰：算。 |
| gazette.blocks[203][0] |
羅委員智強：非常嚴重，謝謝。我就看法務部接下來對於現在死刑定讞的一些死刑犯是不是用這個標準去看。我們看到這37名死刑犯裡面，有人姦殺83歲的老婦人，有人十年連殺3人，有人殺母親、殺婆婆、殺丈夫企圖詐領保險金，有人持霰彈槍殺警察，有人綁票、勒贖、撕票、棄屍，有人在KTV縱火燒死5個人，有人在審判時直接嗆法官：沒有判我死刑，依我的個性會繼續殺人。請問這些叫不叫犯罪情形嚴重？如果這些不叫犯罪情形嚴重，我還真不知道什麼叫犯罪情形嚴重。我再請問院長，你知道這37案背負多少人命嗎？你知道嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[204][0] |
卓院長榮泰：這些行為如果都經過合於憲法規定的正當法律程序，就應該依法執行。 |
| gazette.blocks[205][0] |
羅委員智強：這個數字我請院長跟部長牢牢記在心裡，這個數字我真的是很誠懇請你們兩個牢牢記在心裡，61條人命。 |
| gazette.blocks[206][0] |
卓院長榮泰：所以依照大法官…… |
| gazette.blocks[207][0] |
羅委員智強：當這個社會走向實質廢死的時候…… |
| gazette.blocks[208][0] |
卓院長榮泰：沒有，委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[209][0] |
羅委員智強：請大家看看這61條枉死的人命…… |
| gazette.blocks[210][0] |
卓院長榮泰：依照憲法法庭的文字，這些行為如果合於憲法規定…… |
| gazette.blocks[211][0] |
羅委員智強：沒有關係啦！我跟你講，院長，今天你講也沒有用嘛！我剛剛已經說過…… |
| gazette.blocks[212][0] |
鄭部長銘謙：還是要先由最高檢察署來…… |
| gazette.blocks[213][0] |
羅委員智強：部長，先不用緊張，我現在在跟院長對話，我跟你的對話在司法及法制委員會裡多的是。我說過了，2028年賴清德任滿之前，一個死刑都不會執行，這就叫做實質廢死，你可以否定這句話，但我希望你把我否定掉，我希望你用法務部的行動否定我，否定羅智強、打臉羅智強，2028年5月19號的時候，我不管卓院長在哪裡，來跟我講說：羅智強，你錯了，你看你說錯了。我會非常樂意你指正我的錯誤啊！因為當看到這些枉死的人，請問院長心裡淌不淌血？你淌不淌血？ |
| gazette.blocks[214][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我覺得這種行為國人都無法容忍，法律也無法容忍，但如果他合於憲法規定的正當法律程序，經過這個程序之後，政府必須依法執行。 |
| gazette.blocks[215][0] |
羅委員智強：好啦！院長，我的時間也差不多了，謝謝你啦！我本來要問偵查不公開變偵查大公開，但我只剩一分鐘，所以我問你另外一個簡單一點的題目。請問最近衛福部長邱泰源公開爆料說賴清德打電話罵環境部長彭啓明，這件事你有聽聞嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[216][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我看媒體知道…… |
| gazette.blocks[217][0] |
羅委員智強：你看媒體知道，所以邱部長也沒跟你講？可不可以請邱部長跟彭部長上來一下？ |
| gazette.blocks[218][0] |
卓院長榮泰：沒有，我看媒體知道，事後詢問，我覺得邱部長的發言相當不當，他自己也深表歉意。 |
| gazette.blocks[219][0] |
羅委員智強：好啦！那請他們兩個上來一下。我幫助你們大和解一下，兩個握個手啦！真的，不好看。 |
| gazette.blocks[220][0] |
卓院長榮泰：我跟他沒有怎樣啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[221][0] |
羅委員智強：我不是說你，我是說他們兩個。你跟他沒怎樣，你跟他問題才大了，他跳過你…… |
| gazette.blocks[222][0] |
卓院長榮泰：三個人都握手。 |
| gazette.blocks[223][0] |
羅委員智強：三個更好。部長，不要跳過行政院長去告御狀，不好啦！這樣對卓院長不尊重。 |
| gazette.blocks[224][0] |
邱部長泰源：報告委員，我跟彭部長是多年的好友，一起並肩作戰很久，我們是一直都在努力，為節能減碳在努力。 |
| gazette.blocks[225][0] |
羅委員智強：我知道啦！好好的團隊努力為國家做事，謝謝您。 |
| gazette.blocks[226][0] |
邱部長泰源：謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[227][0] |
卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[228][0] |
主席：謝謝羅智強委員質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[228][1] |
報告院會，現在休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢。 |
| gazette.blocks[228][2] |
休息（10時18分） |
| gazette.blocks[228][3] |
繼續開會（10時30分） |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
322 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
院會-11-2-1 |
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韓國瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
陳瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
黃秀芳 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
李柏毅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
許智傑 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
陳素月 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
233 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-09-24 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1137501 |
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1137501_00003 |
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1137501_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第2會期第1次會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
施政質詢
行政院院長施政報告並備質詢─ 繼續質詢─ |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1137501_00010 |
| 委員名稱 |
羅智強 |
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主席有請行政院院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢陸委員好院長好我想請教一下我念一句話對總預算有意見有幾種處理的方式包括退回總預算修正說明通過或擇期在意這句話誰說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
52.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
70.255 |
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委員說的這句話是2003年柯建民說的我們偉大的柯總召說的我想請教您在2008年曾經民進黨提案要退回馬英九政府的總預算請問你知道提案人是誰嗎我告訴你是當時的民進黨黨團幹事長賴清德說真的跟院長說一下有點感慨 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
83.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
102.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
全世界全台灣都知道民進黨雙標但也不要雙標這麼明顯啦柯建民自己都說對總預算有意見可以退回阿阿現在民進黨總預算被退回了我現在看到網路上很多謠言包括民進黨很多人站出來把國家說得好像滅亡一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
103.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
127.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
那麼如果推回總預算有這麼禍國殃民那民進黨是要先發個聲明來譴責一下賴清德總統呢以前也想推馬英九總統的總預算啊還是民進黨的邏輯是退民進黨的總預算叫傷天害理對不對退國民黨的總預算就是天公地道不要這麼雙標可以嗎 院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
129.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
137.971 |
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謝謝你對柯建民遺憾也謝謝你對賴清德遺憾再想要問你下一個問題沒關係阿你要努力打臉柯建民跟賴清德我也尊重啦畢竟你是賴清德 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
149.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
149.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
議員長施政報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
168.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
168.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
9月16號民進黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
192.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
192.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
210.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
230.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
未來不允許這樣的情形你有沒有這樣說過所以你自己都知道民進黨過去預算執行使用有問題在野黨來為人民把關好好監督荷包也是順行我們卓議院長的意志啊所以難道只許龍泰不滿不准在野退回嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
231.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
253.065 |
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我發現問題我們是解決問題退回解決不了問題你今天不滿叫做解決問題我們不滿就叫製造問題退回解決不了問題你不要再打臉賴清德跟柯建民我真的是我代替賴清德柯建民求求你啦不要再打臉他們啦又是時空環境不同我知道幫你講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
254.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
276.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那我跟你講剛剛我們偉大的卓院長這麼樣反省這個所謂的標案集中的問題那我跟您說來你知道嗎立法院預算中心有說政府各個機關媒體宣傳多以限制性招標的方式部分得標廠商過度集中你有注意到這個問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
278.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
308.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
如果這個是產生問題的原因我們就要把這個原因檢討之後從新的方式來做問題的解決那你知道農委會限制性招標的比例多少嗎你要新的方式見往之來過去怎麼做的方式都不知道新的方式不容易找到我告訴你99.99%限制性招標衛福部多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
311.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
337.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
99.82勞動部多少?99.47內政部多少?98.25國發會多少?百分之百啊請部長來說明沒關係啊 全部列在你後面來 全部都站出來 部長你講啊我們的衛福部 農委會 勞動部 內政部 法務部 國發會主管 院長 請你們全部上來好 沒關係 我要跟你講我就要講新方法了 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
338.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
362.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
建網之來 檢討過去才能設立未來嘛 對不對那很簡單啊你預算94%給民視 這個叫什麼 花人民錢洗人民腦我用白話文說 就是養有慮媒體嘛就是養有慮媒體 沒關係啊 待會我講完再問他回答所以我跟你講 我有一個很好的建設性方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
364.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
387.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
現在我跟各位講請問我們院長你知道我們的媒體政策跟業務宣導費編列多少嗎?今年?明年?不會這個不知道吧?全部政府嗎?對啊全部政府的編列的數字有說增加了9.5億14 14點多億好啦我跟你講沒關係啦學長這數字還是要稍微定一下齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
392.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
393.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
14億9288萬較今年增加5.9億元暴增65% |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
400.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
401.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
三句話跟委員解釋14.93億是我們預算數編列的數字編列數 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
427.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
429.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我告訴你我還是回到我們令我尊敬的9月16號的卓議院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
447.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
472.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
關鍵跟你編列數跟你現在成長數我告訴你沒有政相關政相關是什麼你要讓政府今天真真正正善用人民納稅的錢就是把你過去沒做好把它扣掉啦對不對你94%的預算集中給特定媒體我就砍你94%的預算啊這樣子我現在剩下6%你會不會好好運用 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
473.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
498.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
你不用尊敬我你相信我就可以我相信你我也尊敬你我只限於相信9月16號的主流報今天到目前為止表現我有點疑慮9月13號我說的話我們落實在未來預算執行當中我跟主委員長講砍到行政院院長你就會立場有點改變沒有關係但是我跟你講立法院幫人民把守荷包是我們天職對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
499.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
521.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
你過去你都承認集中預算標案這樣是不對的那我就用這個做預算指標來看看行政院未來預算該怎麼編嘛你太集中了我就砍嘛回應民意嘛每一分每一毛都是人民的納稅錢啊你都斤斤計較原住民進法補償了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
524.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
550.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
對 21億那麼計較 那我跟你講 行政院的完全預算濫用我砍一砍 拿去給原住民用 我也覺得開心原住民也開心 陳穎也開心 伍麗華也開心啊你的原則啊 讓費羅作為原則 我無法接受啦那我再跟你講 我們講師出有名啊我跟你講 整個預算書我也看了 大致粗略的看了一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
551.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
554.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
實質審查告訴我們的意見我們都會尊重我想請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
580.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
606.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
剛剛齁我們這個張祺凱委員齁就對我們的您的官邸齁這個電費齁暴增他覺得齁很有意見他就說齁你們是在挖比特礦嗎?比特幣嗎?我剛剛說這種比喻當然你就不認同嗎?你覺得這樣說法不好我也不認同怎麼會是挖比特幣呢?是在養北極熊啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
607.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
608.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
X戰警他不怕熱啊X戰警有一個人很怕熱誰你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
631.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
651.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
兵人很怕熱啦兵人在一級X戰裡面就是被火噴死的啦很怕熱啦你可以去應徵X戰級的兵人啦我們的陳進仁可以應徵X戰級的火人啦火人不怕熱你超級怕熱你跟電費可以比陳進仁多50%到底發生什麼事啊我知道你說檢討嘛我們幫你檢討嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
657.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
665.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我用的時間並不多你用的時間並不多 比那台多50%66到8月不是你用的不是 66到8月是不是你用的嘛今年6月到8月是多少今年6月到8月你發多少度電快2萬度 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
675.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
675.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以我講第二件事啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
693.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
697.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
請問北海道是黑熊的棲息地還是棕熊的棲息地北海道是黑熊的棲息地還是棕熊的棲息地難倒你了啦 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
723.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
747.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我給你一個暗示台灣是黑熊棲息地還是棕熊棲息地台灣黑熊比較有名黑熊嘛對不對那越北方你知道哪一種熊比較在北方一點的那北海道的棲息地是誰是誰的棲息地因為我白熊啊再過去北極熊就你們行政院官邸養的我知道啦那個我現在是到北極去了啦棕熊啦北海道是棕熊棲息地啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
748.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
751 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
叫他更改去考察中熊很好阿 理由都亂編阿 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
770.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
797.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就在預算書裡面當然不是你行政院啦不能算給你啦監察院啦監察院給我編一筆預算所有的北海道考察黑熊保育我都快昏了黑熊保育跟監察院業務什麼關係第一個問號第二個跑到人家日本北海道人家明明是中熊七七地就考察黑熊我跟院長說啊我跟他講過了今年的總預算是歷史新高吧是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
800.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
801.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
今天我們講退回總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
821.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
847.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
原因之一就是因為行政院沒有編足我們立法院三讀通過的原住民禁法補償條例的預算嘛 對不對這個是原因之一啦 對不對那我想請問齁你不編足這21億我剛剛隨便講那些東西加起來也真的是夯不啷噹包括政府的電費大增啊 什麼大增啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
848.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
875.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
說真的 原住民的進法補償這麼多年沒調整我們對原住民總要有點交代嘛 對不對你知道這個進法補償條例提出來 你知道是誰提案的嗎誰提案的 高金素梅委員提案的何止高金素梅啊 還有陳寅跟伍麗華院長我真的跟你講啦今天這一件事情沒有那麼難解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
877.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
899.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
只要院長一顆柔軟的心對原住民有一點柔軟的心你對立法院立的國家法律三讀通過法律有一顆柔軟的心你就直接跟在野黨溝通你就溝通你今天既然三讀通過對原住民對農民的照顧行政院絕對努力的把預算編組來對武麗華交代來對陳盈交代院長願不願意 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
906.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
927.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我們絕對有柔軟的心但是在柔軟之前我們對憲法跟法定的預算承受必須要維護好柔軟在你的柔軟心之下原住民踩在腳底下你叫民進黨立委怎麼到原住民選區去面對你沒有關係我告訴你講今天總預算退回 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
935.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
961.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
今天起因之一是進法補償條例那我今天也知道院長您的態度沒關係反正原住民的票或原住民的福利原住民的福祉原住民的權益原住民過去的所謂的正義這不是黨派的問題不是哪一個委員哪一個黨的問題所以這個是憲法給予行政院編列預算預算完整性的問題好啦 接下來我想請教您啊柯建民就說要去釋憲嘛是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
964.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
966.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
今天政府創下歷史新高的預算 增加了4000多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
990.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1011.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
連一個對原住民柔軟的心都沒有然後到處 現在很多到處謠言啊講到說什麼總預算被退回 社福支出 什麼都不見了我講一個東西給院長聽 你認不認同這是我們現在法律規則的狀況即便總預算被退回 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1012.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1031.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
法律性的所謂的支出法律義務支出其實也是不受影響包括社會保險包括社會保險補助教育經費補助地方補助大概佔六成如果真的沒有收到補助反而是行政機關怠惰 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1032.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1059.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
然後侵害人民權益至於非法律義務的支出根據預算法54條之規定國會就算沒有在法定期限內通過預算審查行政部門可以依照上一年度預算先執行我真的說實在話啦民進黨不要一天到晚搞認知作戰這件事起因就是對民進黨政府對國家法律的不尊重預算濫編我隨便講那麼多的例子預算濫編然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1060.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1081.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
加上今天對原住民我們必須為原住民伸張啊所以這個事情搞了半天如果真的要讓總預算不要退 對不對我們來去審啦 看看我們到底是北海道該考察黑熊還是棕熊就是對原住民謙卑就解決了啦我想請教您下一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1083.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1089.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
院長除外根據各大機構民調包括臺灣民意基金會等等的民調臺灣民眾土片對司法沒有信心你知道原因是什麼嗎我跟你講一個是跟死刑有關一個是偵查不公開變偵查大公開我想再請教你下一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1107.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1127.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
民進黨在黨綱的自由人權章裡面直接寫嚴議廢止死刑的可行性 院長你贊成廢除死刑嗎對不起 再說一次黨綱就跟你講 我剛剛問問題的時候好啦好啦 沒關係來 您先喝口水來 先喝口水先緩和一下喝口水沒關係然後我再問我的問題 對好 謝謝院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1136.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1166.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
民進黨在黨綱的自由人權章直接寫研議廢止死刑的可行性 院長你贊成廢除死刑嗎黨綱這麼寫是研議它的可行性 那現在的可行不可行在憲法法庭之後它就是一個標準 那我們在這個標準底下你贊成廢除死刑嗎現在大法官憲法法庭所做出來的決定就是我們的東方投票我一直很欣賞你 我覺得你是有擔當的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1168.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1196.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
連這句話有打不出來沒有那我就問你下一題你知道依照國內目前的多項民調多數人贊成廢除死刑還是反對廢除死刑依照民調的結果這個贊成死刑的是比較多對啊就是桃園民意基金會84%反對廢死嘛中華人權協會是今年這樣都今年的民調80%反對廢死那我想請問你齁在這麼強大的反廢死的民意之下你贊成大法官用憲法解釋的方式廢除死刑嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1197.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1220.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
第一個他的解釋是有條件的合憲那下面訴出來很多的條件我們現在行政機關就在這個條件底下我們如何逐一的去執行你的回答是我下一個要問的問題啦那你贊成大法官用憲法解釋的方式表面說實行合憲但又有條件的方式設下18同仁證的超高門檻來達到實質廢死嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1223.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1248.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我不能說同意不同意 因為大法官出來我們就只能做社會共通的標準我們在研究行政部門該做的 比方說兩年內該修很多的法蔡英文政府的法務部長曾經主張死刑的存費應該由立法院透過修法的方式決定不應由大法官來解釋 你認同這樣的主張嗎各位委員報告那法務部在這次的那個死刑的憲法訴訟的延遲編入 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1250.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1256.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
認為大法官雖然宣布死刑核限但其實已經是實質廢死了你覺得大法官已經實質廢死了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1281.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1296.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
在滿足他所列的那種狀況條件底下是應該有執行的空間是有空間的我講一個更具體更直觀的指標有沒有實質廢死就看死刑有沒有執行對不對如果到2028年我們賴清德總統任滿之前你覺得死刑有執行的可能性嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1309.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1336.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
因為他裡面有很多 為什麼有37個 死刑定驗的死刑犯喔死刑有執行的可能性嗎他裡面有很多 必須在兩年內完成修法我直接跟你講啦 我告訴你啦零啦 不會有啦我很獨斷的說啦我們到2028年5月19號 吳國遠院長不管你還在不在這個位置上我們把我今天講這話打開來看看 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1337.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1366.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
社會大眾就認為已經實質廢死了啦來 我為什麼這樣講不是因為有憑證那我就問法務部長啊 你要不要找一天來司法法治委員會報告一下接下來37名死刑犯的非常上訴你打算怎麼應對以及他死刑執行你打算怎麼應對欸你這可不要推大法官了 大法官現在是說核限喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1367.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1378.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
阿既然合憲 就執行阿 執不執行 要不要依法執行很好阿 沒關係啦沒關係 所以我跟你講 我第一個跟我們的卓院長講2028之前 大憲熱滿之前 我不認為有任何死刑會執行 就是實質廢死 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1394.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1415.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
但會不會有死刑執行這個問號也不用卓院長回答就是法務部長因為現在是法務部的事了吧不是吧 是不是對啊 所以請我也會跟我們的司法法務委員會招委來請你來做個專案報告好好跟國人解釋一下是不是實質廢死 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1417.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1444.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
那我跟院長說我講說是不是實質廢死我跟你講不是沒有本據的啦現在要判死是不是很難啦院長你對相關數據有概念嗎我直接講司法院殺人案件量刑系統統計犯下刑法271條普通殺人罪的罪犯你知道有百分之多少會被判死嗎百分之四對我上面已經秀給你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1445.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1470.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
可是在過去5年,過去5年誰執政?誰執政?民進黨執政476件殺人權利案件只有一件死刑定讞所以是降到千分之二一千件殺人案件只有兩個兇嫌會判死所以還不用大法官設門檻現狀要判就不容易了 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1471.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1497.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
施行要訂閱很難但要執行施行我跟你講更難你知道過去4年來從2020年5月到現在請問政府有沒有執行過施行上面有啦 我都很大方的啦對 我也不想用這種方式突襲院長沒有啦 零啦那我想請問齁我就不算現在賴總統啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1499.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1526.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我們最近的3位總統你知道陳水扁任內執行多少個死刑嗎32個馬英九任內多少個33個蔡英文任內多少個2個難不難賴清德到現在為止幾個當然是0可是我直接跟你講賴清德就是0一路0到底是不是實質廢死其實判準很簡單 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1527.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1553.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
我們就看著法務部接下來對37位死刑定讞的所謂的死刑犯你今天到底的做法是什麼到底實質廢死是大法官實質廢死還是今天卓榮泰內閣行政院實質廢死人民都睜大眼睛在看喔報告委員大法官是有條件合憲行政機關就是在這個條件底下我講的是結果論 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1554.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1569.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
對 行政機關就在這個條件底下要依法行政好啦 行政機關推大法官 大法官推行政機關但是我跟你講為什麼今天已經沒有興趣去管你到底是大法官推給行政機關還是行政機關推給大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1570.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1591.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我們今天站在這裡是真的是對那些無辜往死的被害人還有被害者家屬感到深深的沉痛憲法法庭也說兩年內要完成很多法律的修改這不只是行政院的責任大院也應該可以在這個時間內跟行政院互相來配合好 那接下來我要想請教一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1597.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1620.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
我們的大法官說犯罪情節屬最嚴重之罪才能判死嘛對不對是那麼如果犯下情節最嚴重的罪就應該要考慮死刑嘛那我想請問標準在哪裡你說情節最嚴重我舉個例子啊姦殺殺警察殺父母殺小孩嚴重危害社會治安這些算不算犯罪情節嚴重這個是算非常嚴重的非常嚴重謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1624.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1636.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
我就看我們法務部接下來對於現在死刑定讞的一些死刑犯你是不是用這個標準去看我們看到這37名的死刑犯裡面有人監察83歲的老婦人 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1638.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1639.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
請問這些叫不叫犯罪情形嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1665.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1665.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
61條人命 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1696.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1710.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
當這個社會走向實質廢死的時候請大家請真的請大家看看這61條往死的人沒有關係嘛 我跟你講院長今天你講也沒有用嘛我剛已經說過我現在跟院長對話好不好 我跟你對話我就說過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1724.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1725.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
我會非常樂意你指證我的錯誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1753.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1781.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
因為當看到這些往死的人請問院長你心裡躺不躺血你躺不躺血我覺得這種行為國人都無法容忍法律也無法容忍但如果它合於憲法規定的正當法律程序經過這個程序之後政府必須依法執行謝謝你啦我本來要問偵查不公開變偵查大公開但我只剩1分鐘所以我問你一個簡單一點的題目 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1783.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1808.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
請問最近衛福部長邱太元公開爆料說賴清德打電話罵環境部長彭啟明這件事你有聽聞嗎我看媒體知道所以我們的邱部長也沒跟你講啊我看媒體知道事後的詢問我覺得邱部長的發言相當的不當他自己也聲表歉意好啦那請他們兩個上來一下啦對不對我幫助你們大和解一下啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1810.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1822.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
兩個握個手啦真的不好看我跟他沒有怎樣啊我說我不說你我說兩個他們兩個你跟他沒怎樣你跟他問題才大了他跳過你三個更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1824.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1826.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
謝謝羅智強委員 紫薰 謝謝卓院長的備詢報言會現在我們休息10分鐘 休息之後 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-09-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:48:00 - 10:18:49 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第2會期第1次會議（事由：行政院院長施政報告並備質詢） |