| IVOD_ID |
153412 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153412 |
| 日期 |
2024-05-30 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-19-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-05-30T12:18:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-05-30T12:28:13+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:59 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba8e98704494bafccc1766e5648a1e6b71446d6a815e913744bbbba23be64eeb1d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:18:14 - 12:28:13 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
802 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
張委員啓楷：（12時18分）謝謝主席，請主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：好，請劉主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：張委員午安。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
張委員啓楷：主委，你第一次來，先給你加油、幫你打氣。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：感謝！ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
張委員啓楷：你是AI專家，產業界風評不錯啦！我今天聽你的簡報，夠水準！是值得期許的國發會主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
張委員啓楷：不過，我要提醒，不要被那些背離事實、危言聳聽，甚至邏輯不通的話，特別是政治語言的影響。大家想像一個畫面，現在113位立委當中，有誰敢刺探台積電的商業機密、核心價值？台積電是我們的護國神山啊！我們疼愛它都來不及了，怎麼會有立委說：「我們去刺探。把台積電找來，刺探它的商業機密，刺探它核心的技術。」哪有這種立委！他一定被罷免嘛！對不對？這個政黨要被唾棄嘛！所以，主委，以後如果有立委問你政治性的語言，你不要隨便點頭哦！ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
張委員啓楷：剛才邱議瑩委員提到立法院職權行使法第五十九條之五，他說這個是侵犯人權，事實是什麼？立法院職權行使法第五十九條之五說的是什麼？出席人員有下列情形者，可以拒絕證言，或是可以根本不要講話、不要表達意見，有下面四項，第一個，涉及到國家安全、國防及外交之國家機密事項；第二個，如果是辦聽證會，你來出席，逾越了聽證會調查之目的所提出之詰問或對質，你可以拒絕證言，也可以不要表達意見；第三個，依照行政訴訟法規定可以拒絕的事項；第四個最重要，涉及受到法律明定保護之個人隱私或其他秘密事項。這四個不就是在保障個人跟企業嗎？台積電首先不會被找來，就算找來，所有的企業跟個人都受到保障，這就是邱議瑩說的第五十九條之五的真相。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][1] |
第二個來看第五十九條之一，什麼東西都要講給立委聽嗎？No！有侵犯人權嗎？尤其是涉及外交跟國防或者其他法令應遵守秘密的，要開什麼？秘密會議耶！秘密會議任何人在這邊，包括立法委員，如果洩密是要法辦的。聽證會一定要公開嗎？也No，不是喔！如果有以下條件要開聽證會可以不公開，用秘密的方式來做聽證：第一個，如果牽涉到個人隱私，遭受到不當的侵害之虞；第二個，個人的生命、身體或其他自由遭受到威脅；第三個最重要，就是在說台積電或者任何企業被邀請來立法院，我先強調平常立法院要邀企業來，幾乎是非常非常不可能的，所以牽涉到的一定是非常大的公眾利益，台積電沒有犯法的情況下，為什麼會找台積電來呢？我們統計了第四屆到第十屆所有的調查委員會，第四屆到第十屆，每一屆的立委任期四年，才辦4次的調查委員會，等於幾年才1次，很嚴格，而且有這麼多的規定。你看這個條文的第三項，有牽扯到營業秘密遭受到不當侵害之虞，你可以不要講話，而且是開秘密會議，所以台積電的know-how怎麼會流出去呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][2] |
剛剛邱議瑩委員又提到一個很嚴重的事情，這個事情歐洲商會已經澄清好幾次了，他引述及轉傳的這個文章原作者方格恩有出來澄清，他說他沒有講過臺灣的國會改革是荒謬，他說這個荒謬的詞是誰講的？民進黨的立法委員候選人林志潔。他特別澄清這不代表他的立場，也不代表歐洲商會的立場，最重要的是後面那句話，他說你引述我的文章，但是我的文章裡面寫得清清楚楚，沒有寫到會影響到跨國企業投資臺灣的意願。主委，你是專業的，大家對你是有期許的，你來這邊當然會碰到一些政治的語言，但是政治的語言你不要隨便點頭，我這樣一路解釋清楚，沒有侵犯到人權、沒有侵犯到企業。而且你看歐洲商會，我們這次的修法很重要，就是跟美國學的，調查權跟聽證會不就是跟美國學、跟歐洲重要的國家學的？包括德國、法國、英國，歐洲的國家怎麼會反對呢？所以對於政治性的語言我們今天把它解釋清楚。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][3] |
主委，我們來談一下用電的問題，你是AI的專家，未來你想要落實AI產業化，不過現在大家都問一個重要的問題，臺灣的發展除了積極推動AI，還有市區公車電動化、電動車的興起及半導體精密晶片的發展，這些都很耗電，對不對？是不是非常耗電？所以你現在的重責大任是什麼？要供應非常充裕且便宜的電。我知道早上已經很多人問過你核電的事情，我們簡單看一下，這三位從經濟部長到童子賢和上一屆主委龔明鑫都提過，我今天只有問一個最重要的事情，我請教你，連G7七個主要的工業國都講「不再反對核能」，你說你不排斥，可是有3個原則，當然你今天已經解釋很多次了，我最關心的是什麼？AI增加了3成以上的電力，經濟部的處長很專業，他都出來說至少1年要增加3%。但我要問，這是很簡單的數學問題，你要增加3%的用電，你也講AI產業會增加3成，可是今年7月27日核三廠1號機就停了，明年的5月17日又停，3.5%加3.5%共減少7%，這邊的電需要這麼多，然後那邊的電又變少了，怎麼供應充分又便宜的電？怎麼做得到？怎麼做得到？請說。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：就台電的說明，台電是有準備機組，但是現在的準備機組還是以天然氣為主。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
張委員啓楷：天然氣、以肺發電，對不對？尤其臺中就跳起來，一定跳起來嘛。不好意思，我今天比較激動，因為我要澄清很多的真相，這對全民跟對企業都很重要。我有最後一個要求，民進黨政府能夠打破8年這個魔咒，代表他們要承擔更大的責任，現在不能只有台灣民眾黨，像我在經濟委員會，我負責提案要去解決核電廠、核三廠能不能延役的問題，國民黨已經提案了，可是更需要承擔的是誰？執政黨，包括國發會主委。你現在不是只有聽台電講話，我剛剛講這是數學的問題，用電量一直增加，包括AI產業要發展，半導體像台積電一直在擴廠。我是嘉義人，它要來嘉義設廠，我都很高興，問題是電到底夠不夠？所以我提出具體建議，至少這3點要很注意，核電到底要不要用，你們可以考慮，可是相對的至少這3個問題要去解決。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][1] |
第一個，新北市跟台電的乾式貯存槽爭議，不要擺在那邊，互相踢皮球，中央政府有責任要去處理好。第二個，核能如果要延役，就是你一直在說的會碰到法規問題，需要5年，可是不能等停電、跳電、大停電的時候才來喊來不及，所以你要準備好，這個法令到底有沒有可能解得開？像美國的例子，美國加州就突然發現電是不夠的，它的核電廠本來已經要延了，於是就一邊檢查是安全的，一邊又延用。德國碰到烏俄戰爭的時候也是這樣子，它本來要停了，結果緊急修法，經過安全評估之後又用了一段時間，這個有前例可循，美國加州的例子、德國的例子都可以參考。另外，核能最終處置場的期程與選址，好不好？大家對主委有很高的期待，我期待的不是只有爭執現在的電夠不夠的問題，我覺得至少這3個問題你要去好好解決，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
張委員啓楷：好，謝謝主委。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
主席：現在請王美惠委員詢答，王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][1] |
現在請徐欣瑩委員詢答，徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][2] |
現在請蔡易餘委員詢答。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
402 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-19-14 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
羅美玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
李柏毅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
347 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-05-30 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1135501 |
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1135501_00007 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢 |
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主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
32.911 |
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57.299 |
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主委你第一遍來,先幫你加油,幫你打氣,因為你是AI專家,產業界風評不錯,我今天聽你的簡報,過水準是值得啟示的國會主委,難度不過,我要提醒不要背那些背離事實、危言聳聽甚至邏輯不通的話,特別是政治語言的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
60.219 |
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74.589 |
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大家想像一個畫面現在13位有誰敢有誰敢試探台積電的商業機密核心價值台積電是我們的護國神山啊怎麼會有立委說我們要去試探把台積電找來試探它的商業機密試探它的核心的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
90.233 |
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116.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
核心的這個技術那有其中一位他一定被罷免嘛對不對這個政黨要被唾棄嘛所以主委你或有立委問你政治性的原因不要隨便點頭喔對啊 邱議員邱委員講到立法院執行刑事法第59條15他說這個是侵犯人權嗎事實是什麼立法院執行刑事法第95條講什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
120.461 |
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147.699 |
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出席人員有下列情形者你是可以拒絕證言的或者你根本就不要講話你可以不要表達意見有下面四項第一個涉及到國家安全、國防跟外交之國家機密事項第二個如果是辦聽證會你來出席一列的聽證會調查的目的跟所提出的結論或者要對質你可以拒絕證言也可以不要表達意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
149.448 |
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174.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
第三．依照《刑事訴訟法》規定．你可以拒絕的事項．第四．放中了你看．涉及受到法律明定．保障之個人隱私或其他秘密事項這四個不就是在保障個人跟企業嗎臺積電第一個不會被找來啊第一個找來．所有的企業跟個人都受到保障啊這給邱委員講的95條．59條之5的真相 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
178.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
206.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
第二個我們看看59條之一什麼東西都要講給立委聽嗎?NO有千萬人權嗎尤其是涉及外交跟國防或者其他法令應該遵守秘密的要開什麼?秘密會議耶秘密會議任何人在這邊包括立法院聽到誰他如果洩密是要法辦的聽證會一定要公開嗎?也NO不是喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
208.41 |
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228.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
如果有以下的這個條件要開這個聽證會．他可以不公開用秘密的方式來做聽證．第一,如果牽涉到個人的隱私遭受到不當的侵害之餘．第二,個人的生命或者身體或其他自有遭受到威脅．第三個重點,就是說台積電．或者任何企業,邀請來我們的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
231.121 |
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245.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我先強調平常立法院要辦要企業來幾乎是非常非常不可能的所以你牽涉到的是非常大的公眾這個利益台積電沒有犯法為什麼要找台積電來呢我們去統計了第4屆到第10屆所有辦的這個調查委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
251.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
273.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
從第4屆到第10屆每一屆為信你才辦4次的調查委員會等於1年才一次很嚴格而且有這麼多的規定你看這個條文的第三條有牽扯到營業秘密遭受到不當侵害之餘你可以不要講話而且開秘密會議所以台積電的know-how怎麼會流出去呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
277.605 |
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297.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
好,剛剛邱議員委員提到一個很嚴重的事情這個事情歐洲商務已經澄清了好幾次了嘛他引述了,現在傳的東西這個文章這個文章也作者方格映出來澄清啊他說他沒有講過什麼台灣的國會改革是什麼荒謬他說這個荒謬的詞是誰講的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
299.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
322.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
林晉棟：立法院委員：郝酸炎：林智傑他特別澄清這個不代表他的立場也不代表歐洲商會的立場 同時還不會說話他說我的文章 你們引述我的文章我的文章裡面寫得清清楚楚沒有寫到會影響到跨國企業投資台灣的意願所以 主委 你是很壯硬的 大家對你是有期許的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
324.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
342.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
您在這邊當然會碰到一些政治的語言可是政治語言你不要隨便點頭我剛剛這樣一路解釋清楚沒有侵犯到人權沒有侵犯到企業而且你看歐洲商會RG我們這次這個修法很重要就跟美國學啊調查權跟聽證會不就是跟美國學跟歐洲重要的國家學啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
343.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
369.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
包括帝國、法國、英國啊。歐洲的國家怎麼會反對呢?所以對於政治性的語言,我們今天把它解釋清楚。好,主委,我們來談一下用電的問題。你是AI的專家啦。你為了理想要落實AI的產業化。但是現在大家都問一個同樣的問題。我們台灣的發電,你看下一張。台灣的發電,你積極要推動的這個AI。 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
374.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
378.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
市區的公車電動化、電動車的興起、電線、半導體、精密晶片的發展這都很耗電對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
384.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
412.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以你現在的重責大任是什麼?要供應一個非常充裕而且便宜的這個電我知道早上已經很多人問過你核電的事情我們看一下,簡單看一下三位經濟部長到童子賢跟你的上一任鞏明信都提過我們一直跳下來我今天只有問一個最重要的事情我請教你連第7個主要的工業國他都講了不再反對核能我們再往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
415.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
419.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你說你不排斥嘛可是有三個原則啦當然你今天已經解釋很多個了 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
420.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
447.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我最關心的是什麽?AI又增加了三成以上的這個電力今天連經濟部的處長,那也是很專業嘛對不對?他都出來說嘛,至少一年要增加3%嘛那我要問喔,用這個很簡單的數學問題你要增加3%的這個用電,你要講AI產業增加三成可是我們今年7月27,可是三成1號機就停了明年的517又停了 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
449.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
458.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
三點五加三點五你這邊的電需要這麼多然後這邊的電又變少了你怎麼去供應充分又是一個便宜的電怎麼做得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
464.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
486.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
台電是有準備機組 但是他現在的準備機組還是以天然氣為主 我就台電的說明以廢發電嘛 對不對 因為台電一定跳起來啊 一定跳起來嘛 所以不好意思 因為今天我比較激動 因為我要澄清很多的真相 這對錢比跟對企業都很重要的 我最後做一個最後的一個要求 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
488.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
505.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
民進黨政府能夠打破八年這個魔咒代表他們要承擔更大的這個責任現在不能只有臺灣民眾黨像我在經濟委員會我不得提案我們要解決核電廠、核三廠能不能營利這個問題國民黨已經提案了可是更需要承擔的是誰執政黨啊包括你國發會的主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
507.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
532.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你現在不是只有聽台電的講話或是講數學的問題喔你用電量一直在增加對不對包括AI的產業要發展半導體你看台積電一直在新的拓展嘛對不對像我家裡人他要來嘉義設廠我都很高興啊問題電到底夠不夠所以我做一個具體的建議請你要可能至少這三點要很注意的核電到底要不要用你們可以考慮可是相對的至少這三個目的要轉去改觀 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
533.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
549.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
第一、新北市跟台電那個干涉雛貞草這個爭議不要擺在那邊互相踢皮球我對中央政府有責任去處理好事第二、核能如果嚴厲就是一直在講的有碰到法規問題要五年嘛可是不能夠等停電 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
550.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
550.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
美國加州﹗ |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
578.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
578.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
謝謝委員 |