| IVOD_ID |
151689 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151689 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-24T12:09:49+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-24T12:18:03+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:08:14 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3adf8331e4588e7d27e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b84432caaa58e7967e20ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
賴士葆 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:09:49 - 12:18:03 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
869 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
賴委員士葆：（12時9分）謝謝主席。主席、各位先進，有請法務部蔡部長及司法院吳秘書長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請蔡部長跟吳秘書長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
賴委員士葆：部長好。 |
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蔡部長清祥：委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。有關昨天的廢死辯論，我們很清楚的看到大法官幾乎一面倒，就是要廢死啊！秘書長，你聽就好了，我不要你怎麼回答，因為你沒有講話的餘地。就是大法官要冒著一個違反八成以上民意的大不諱，極可能做成違憲決定。請教部長，如果三個月以後做成死刑是違憲的解釋，下一步怎麼樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
蔡部長清祥：如果很明確做這樣的釋憲結果，我們都會遵照這個結果來做必要的修法提案。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
賴委員士葆：所以要怎麼樣？就要把死刑拿掉了？ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
蔡部長清祥：這要看他釋憲的結果如何，我想沒有那麼悲觀啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
賴委員士葆：秘書長要不要補充一下？如果做成這樣子，你們通常會怎麼樣要求法務部？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
吳秘書長三龍：我們是負責司法行政。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
賴委員士葆：所以不管這個？秘書長，我跟部長的對話，你聽一下。過去不是有三次的釋憲嗎？三次釋憲都說死刑是合憲，部長，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
蔡部長清祥：對！ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
賴委員士葆：對嘛！很奇怪，為什麼可以一而再、再而三、三而四的一直來釋憲呢？為什麼可以？如果這樣做出來，對於那些受害者的家屬，被無故殺掉的受害者的那些家屬可不可以也提出一個釋憲？可以嗎？請問部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
蔡部長清祥：聲請權一事當然就依照憲法訴訟法規定，誰有權就可以提出聲請，但是受不受理當然就由憲法法院來做決定。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
賴委員士葆：現在在國會殿堂，我就明白主張，如果兩、三個月之後，大法官會議、這一次憲法法庭之後做成死刑是違憲的，這絕對會引起一大波民怨，我們來發動公投，請教部長，你是這部分的專家，是公投的效力大？還是大法官解釋的效力大？你告訴我哪個大？誰大？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
蔡部長清祥：各有其效力。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
賴委員士葆：什麼各有效力？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
蔡部長清祥：公投有公投的結果…… |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
賴委員士葆：公投的結果，大法官要不要遵守？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
蔡部長清祥：大法官有大法官的權限，大法官的釋憲裡面也有不同意見，到時候結果出來…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
賴委員士葆：好，拜託你，結果出來大法官說是違憲，然後人民發動公投把它推翻掉，可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
蔡部長清祥：那我們就看它不同的規定，公投有公投法，釋憲有憲法訴訟法，就是看各相關的…… |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
賴委員士葆：居然大法官會講民意不重要？臺灣老是在國際上跟人家講我們的民主、我們的自由，民主叫什麼？民主就是以人民為主叫民主，人民最大！結果每一次民意就是八成，每一次民意就是八成，老實講，蔡部長，你們這個時候義憤填膺講這麼大聲的話，說你們反對廢死啊，其實你們是始作俑者，你們如果不要有那個行政命令，哪裡有什麼再審、非常上訴跟憲法法庭？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
蔡部長清祥：那不是行政命令，那是刑事訴訟法，刑事訴訟法就有規定再審、非常上訴，他有這樣的權利。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
賴委員士葆：對，憲法法庭，對死刑的不執行，是你們的行政命令，你剛剛講是刑事訴訟，這是另外一件事。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
蔡部長清祥：行政命令是根據法律來訂定的，法律刑事訴訟法就有規定他有再審的權利，他有非常上訴的權利。 |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
賴委員士葆：沒有規定死刑犯有這個權利啦！沒有規定死刑犯有這個權利，是你們自己加的。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
蔡部長清祥：沒有、沒有，法律有規定，我們只是依照法律來訂定。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
賴委員士葆：沒有，上一次我在這裡問你的問題，但是你今天的回答不一樣喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
蔡部長清祥：但是釋憲這個部分，刑事訴訟法…… |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
賴委員士葆：不一樣喔，刑事訴訟法沒有規定這個，死刑犯不執行是因為你們有一個死刑犯的執行條件，你們說一定要經過再審、非常上訴、憲法法庭，是你們的行政命令把它加上去的。我的感覺是你們跟大法官在唱雙簧，你們兩個單位在唱雙簧，因為你不敢違背總統的意思，總統和司法院長就是想要廢死啊，他們就是想要廢死啊，號稱什麼先進法案啊，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][1] |
請主席讓我講完，再給我一分鐘。很清楚的，外界的解讀是什麼？這幾個大法官要感念啦，可能都快要退休了，要感念蔡英文提名他當大法官，所以在他們退以前要獻給蔡英文一個卸任的禮物！蔡英文念茲在茲，包括司法院長許宗力這兩位都是主張廢死，一路在推動廢死，然後法務部長也不敢去講話，因為他是老闆，所以只能這樣子啊！所以今天我們看到法務部盡力去fight，其實這都假的，老闆最重要！ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
蔡部長清祥：沒有，我們是堅定我們的立場跟我們的職責嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
賴委員士葆：沒有，部長，你確定不會留任嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
蔡部長清祥：不會！ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
賴委員士葆：所以要走之前要講真話啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
蔡部長清祥：所以我講的都是真話啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
賴委員士葆：要講真話就是說，你現在搞了半天，這些都是假的，就玩一套過程給大家看。最後我請問你，我只有一句話，問完我就下來。如果大法官解釋說違憲，你能不能接受？個人能不能接受？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我們就看解釋文如何，也會參考不同意見書。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
賴委員士葆：你這樣講，我們聽不懂啦，你就說能接受或是不能接受，兩個字而已，就二選一，可不可以接受？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
蔡部長清祥：看結果之後再說。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
賴委員士葆：結果我不知道，我的大帽子就是合乎憲法，大帽子就是不合乎憲法，就是違憲或不違憲，就這樣子而已啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
蔡部長清祥：法務部的立場就是認為合憲。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
主席：好，謝謝啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
賴委員士葆：所以你不能接受？大法官的解釋如果是說違憲，你不能接受，這樣就對了。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
蔡部長清祥：我們法務部就是一貫的立場，就是這樣子！ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
賴委員士葆：合憲，所以你不能接受這個是違憲？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
蔡部長清祥：能不能接受，等結果出來以後，請下一任的部長來說明。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
主席：好，謝謝賴委員，謝謝蔡部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
賴委員士葆：其實你要卸任的人不需要這麼客氣啦，不用嚇成這樣啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
主席：謝謝賴委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][1] |
接下來請鄭天財委員，鄭天財，鄭天財委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][2] |
請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][3] |
所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][4] |
委員傅崐萁所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
250 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-16 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
莊瑞雄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
黃珊珊 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
187 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-04-24 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1133301 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1133301_00004 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運
用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專案報告，並備質詢 |
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1133301_00003 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝主席以及各位先進有請法務部的蔡部長以及司法院的吳秘書長請蔡部長跟吳秘書長部長兩位長官好昨天的Face的辯論很清楚地看得到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
35.909 |
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61.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
這大法官幾乎一面倒就是要廢死啊那個秘書長這裡啊你聽就好啦我不要你怎麼回答因為你沒講話餘地就是大法官要冒著乾冒著一個違反八成以上民意的大部會極可能做成違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
63.444 |
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那我就請教部長如果他做成為說好三個月以後做成一個說死刑是違憲下一步怎麼樣如果很明確的做這樣的釋憲結果我們都會遵照這個結果來做必要的修法的提案所以會怎麼樣所以如果有就把死刑拿掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
90.482 |
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113.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這要看他釋憲的結果如何啦我想我們沒有那麼悲觀啦這個那個秘書長要補充一下如果做成這樣子你們通常會怎麼樣要求法務部那我們這個負責司法行政啦不管這個好那我講請你上去你要聽啦我們兩個人對話你聽一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
117.932 |
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郭澳區不是有三次的釋憲嗎?三次釋憲都說死刑是核心對不對?部長對對嘛 啊奇怪呢啊為什麼可以一要再、再要三、三要四一直來釋憲呢?為什麼可以?啊如果他這樣做出來能不能我受害者我的家屬、受害者家屬被殺掉的、無辜殺掉的那些家屬可以不可以我也提出一個釋憲可以嗎?我請加盟你 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
149.323 |
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| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
申請權當然就依照憲法訴訟法誰有權他就可以提出申請但你受不受理當然是憲法法院來做決定這個我現在就明白主張了在這個國會殿堂我就明白主張了如果大法官兩三個月之後大法官會議這一次憲法法庭之後做成說 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
178.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
180.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
實行是違憲的話．絕對引起一大波的一個民怨我們來發動公投啊公投我請教部長你是這份專家公投的效力大還是司法官還是大法官解釋的效力大你要告訴我哪個大 誰大 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
204.721 |
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| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
結果出來就大法官說是違憲然後人民發動公投把他推翻掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
228.226 |
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那我們就看他不同的規定嘛公投有公投法那事先有憲法訴訟法那看各相關的 居然大法官會講說民意不重要阿台灣現在是什麼國際上跟人家講就是我們的民主我們的自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
249.143 |
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275.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
民主叫什麼?民主就是以人民為主叫人民主啊人民最大結果每一次命令就是八成每一次命令八成老實講 蔡部長你們這個時候一分天命啊講這個這麼大聲的話說你們反對廢食啊結果你們死出庸職而已你們如果不要有那個行政命令哪裡有什麼債神非常上訴跟憲法法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
276.892 |
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296.005 |
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那不是行政命令行事訴訟法就有規定在審非常上述他有這樣的權利啊憲法法庭實行的不只是你們的行政命令你剛剛講是行事訴訟是另外一件事行政命令是根據法律來訂定的嘛法律行事訴訟法就有規定他有在審的權利他有非常上述的權利嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
297.099 |
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313.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
沒有規定死刑犯有這個權利啦沒有規定死刑犯有這個權利是你們自己家的法律有規定我們只是跟照法律來訂定沒有我上一次我在這裡問你的問題是你跟我回答今天不一樣喔但是事先這個部分就是說沒有規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
314.376 |
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333.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
行政法院沒有規定這個喔沒有規定這個死刑犯不執行是你們有一個死刑犯的執行條件你們說一定要經過再審非常上述憲法法庭是你們的行政命令把它加上去的所以你們現在就感覺好像我的感覺是你們跟大法官在唱雙簧捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
334.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
335.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
很清楚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
359.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
375.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
外界的解讀是什麼?這幾個大法官要感念啊!他可能都快學了要感念蔡英文提名當大法官所以在他們退以前要獻給蔡英文一個卸任的禮物啊! |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
376.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
390.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
蔡英文、念茲再次包括你們司法院長、許中立這兩位都是主張廢死一路在推動廢死然後法務部長也不敢去講話因為他是老闆所以只能這樣子所以今天來講看到說法務部這樣盡力去fight其實這都假的老闆最重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
399.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
408.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
沒有 我們是鑑定我們的立場嘛跟我們的職責嘛不是啦 那個 那個 部長啊你 你 你確定不會留任嗎不會啊啊 所以要走之前 要講真話啊那所以我講的都是真話啊講真話就是說 你今天不幾步不幾步這就是 這種假的啊 就玩一趟過程給大家看 最後我請問你 我就一句話 問完我就下來了齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
428.638 |
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如果大法官解釋說違憲,你能不能接受?個人能不能接受?我們就看他解釋文如何,然後也會參考不同意見書。不是你要聽沒有啦,你就說能接受不能接受兩句而已啊,要選你啊,能不能接受?結果我大帽子就是合乎憲法。 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
457.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
462.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
大帽子不合乎憲法就是違憲不違憲法務部的立場就是認為合憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
465.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
466.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
接下來有請 |