| IVOD_ID |
151269 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151269 |
| 日期 |
2024-04-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-23-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-04-17T10:59:12+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-04-17T11:08:15+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:03 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627c715ae1ac06800970e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c94f0c8cd608c1fd9b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林俊憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:59:12 - 11:08:15 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。
【詢答及處理】
【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
126 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
林委員俊憲：（10時59分）感謝雪公主席。本席邀請交通部王部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：王部長請。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
林委員俊憲：我也請臺鐵。臺鐵在嗎？公路局長在嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
王部長國材：林委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
林委員俊憲：部長，4月3日發生了花蓮大地震，4月10日有一塊落石在台9線160K的地方掉下來打到了火車，你知道吧？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
王部長國材：知道。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
林委員俊憲：還好運氣好，那個石頭非常、非常大，砸中了臺鐵，幸好沒有人傷亡。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
王部長國材：它是掉在軌道的旁邊，然後車子在行駛中去擦撞它。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
林委員俊憲：好，但是那個地方就是台9線160K，臺鐵說那個地方不是落石區，你知道吧，臺灣經過地震以後，所有鐵公路沿線都做邊坡安全檢測。這次發生這塊大石頭的地方，臺鐵裡面是不列為落石區，但是很奇怪，公路局是把它列為落石區，是同樣一座山、同樣一個地方，台9線鐵公路是並行的，是連在一起的，為什麼一個單位說是落石區，一個單位說不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
王部長國材：我先初步說明一下。台9線是在鐵路的上面，所以台9它的邊坡，然後鐵路在下面…… |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
林委員俊憲：所以不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
王部長國材：等於是從…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
林委員俊憲：掉到公路，不會再往下掉？再滾過去就到鐵路啦！一條在上面，一條在下面啊，你有規定石頭只能滾到公路就要停下來？如果公路以上是落石區，鐵路當然也是吧，這樣才合理吧？哪有可能同一個地方，公總說它那個邊坡是落石區，那臺鐵同樣經過啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
王部長國材：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
林委員俊憲：就旁邊而已啊！兩條線上下平行的啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
王部長國材：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
林委員俊憲：但又不是落石區。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
王部長國材：的確，那個公路事實上等於在我們蘇花安裡面的和平到和中段。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
林委員俊憲：你們要全部再去通盤檢討、檢測。當時就是發生了落石意外，因為地震，你知道臺灣現在地震恐怕越來越頻繁了。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
王部長國材：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
林委員俊憲：2022年臺東就6級多了，今年2024年花蓮就7級多了，上次大地震在臺南，2018年嘛！對不對？也是6級多大地震嘛！就算公路局把它列為落石區，那麼既然是落石區，公路局也沒有安裝落石警告系統，所以它沒有辦法預先偵測到落石，它也沒辦法去警告臺鐵。我來找一下，目前公路局的落石警告系統就做了大概這8個地方，是經費預算不夠嗎？還是要逐年安裝，還沒有安裝好？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，因為我們主要還是做防落石相關設施，告警的話其實就是先警告用路者，比如說前方的，不過有落石的地方，我們是先做邊坡的整治。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
林委員俊憲：你們不要看這個是小事情喔！ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
陳局長文瑞：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
林委員俊憲：你們那個邊坡檢測都假的啊！同一個邊坡，臺鐵說不是落石區，公總說是，我就用這個案子給你參考。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
王部長國材：是。我跟委員報告，的確…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
林委員俊憲：而且這個地方確實發生損害了，還好落石沒有直接擊中車廂，也沒有導致火車翻覆或遊客有死傷，你懂我的意思嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
王部長國材：我想這部分要跟鐵路和公路都要做個討論。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
林委員俊憲：再來我談一下今天的主題，就是國六東延到花蓮這個問題，我記得以前高工局有估算過預算，好像3年前估8,800億，是不是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
王部長國材：大概8,000億左右。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
林委員俊憲：8,000億嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
王部長國材：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
林委員俊憲：那是3年前，但如果以現在，我看要破兆了。3年來加上物調，再加上人工、物料的漲價，超級錢坑！重點是蓋得起來嗎？做得起來嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
王部長國材：所以我們現在…… |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
林委員俊憲：國民黨提的這個國六東延規定10年要完成，你知道雪隧12公里花了15年，在國六東延裡面最困難的就是能高山，能高山隧道幾公里？好像18公里吧！ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
趙局長興華：17公里多。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
林委員俊憲：17公里多，比雪隧還要長，雪隧花15年喔，能高山要花幾年？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
趙局長興華：跟委員報告，這個還要再評估。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
林委員俊憲：還要再評估嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
王部長國材：也需要很長的時間。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
林委員俊憲：而且能高山那個地質很脆弱的，什麼岩盤啦、湧泉啦等等，挖個雪隧死了13個人，我看能高山這種難度會更危險，對不對？同時為了要東延到花蓮，那個橋墩要架很高，因為它才可以通過高山嘛！我看你的計畫裡面估算，這非常可怕，臺灣第二高，附近的南投國姓鄉那個橋墩70公尺，就是橋墩高有23層樓，現在國六如果東延，到霧社就將近1,150公尺，比國姓還要高很多，所以橋墩恐怕一定會破100公尺，100公尺是30幾層樓高的橋墩，然後還要再估算它能不能抵擋天災、強震，而且它也不是直接就做那麼高，而是要慢慢、慢慢、慢慢讓那個車子爬坡上去，所以這個工程有相當高的一個困難度。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][1] |
我看這個計畫，傅崐萁委員都拿歐洲，尤其是瑞士的鐵路隧道來做比較，瑞士的山脈都是古老山脈岩盤，那個非常穩定，但臺灣不一樣，臺灣的中央山脈是新生的山脈，尤其像能高山這種，中央山脈的地質是片岩，一片一片的，那個很脆弱，挖下去很容易整個崩塌下來，所以困難度絕對是遠高於瑞士隧道。因為要挖隧道就要把岩盤破壞掉，因為它整個都是石頭，要把它挖起來嘛！雪隧的岩盤覆蓋高度大概是750公尺，國六這個都超過1,000公尺，各位可以想一想當時挖雪隧挖了十幾年，挖得很痛苦，現在限定國六到花蓮要10年完成，這哪有可能啦？而且又經過了丹大野生動物保護區、能丹野鳥棲息地，光是環評就要做到何年何月了？所以怎麼可能？怎麼可能限期完成？而且是一個破兆的工程，蓋下去如果蓋到一半蓋不起來，蓋下去以後安全性的考量，這是一個超級錢坑法案，不要這樣亂搞啦！對不對？現在花東公路最重要的是趕快去做蘇花安，蘇花改做好了嘛！所以趕快去做蘇花安，趕快把它做好啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
王部長國材：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
林委員俊憲：這才是花蓮人回家安全的路，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
王部長國材：對。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
林委員俊憲：這個已經在做的要趕快去做，包括地方的溝通，蘇花安光一個高架，居民就反對了，反對就沒辦法，但它稍微一修改就經過國家公園，環評就卡在那裡了，更何況整個國道六，這個環評恐怕更複雜。所以我是覺得政策一定要考量現實面，還有它的可執行度，否則都沒辦法啦！好不好？我提幾點來跟大家做參考、交換意見。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
王部長國材：好，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
主席：謝謝林俊憲委員的發言。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][1] |
下一位請何欣純委員發言。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
342 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-23-7 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
陳雪生 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
李昆澤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
蔡其昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
游顥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
何欣純 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
陳素月 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
林國成 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
魯明哲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
林沛祥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
黃健豪 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
徐富癸 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
廖先翔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
王世堅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
許宇甄 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
麥玉珍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
邱若華 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
林憶君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
黃仁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
許智傑 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
陳培瑜 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
沈伯洋 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
291 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-04-17 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1133001 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1133001_00007 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並
備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案 |
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感謝雪公主席本期邀請我們交通部王部長王部長請委員請台鐵,台鐵在嗎?公總在嗎?公路局在嗎?部長我們4月3號發生發生了花蓮大地震那4月10號有一塊落石 |
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在台九線160的地方掉下來打到了火車你知道吧知道是還有運氣啊那個石頭非常非常大砸中了台鐵啊幸好沒有人傷亡啊他是掉在軌道的旁邊然後車子在走去插到去插中他好 |
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但是那個地方就是台九線160台鐵說那個地方不是落石區了。台鐵你知道嗎?台灣經過地震以後我們所有的鐵公路沿線都做邊坡的安全檢測。所以在這一次發生這塊大石頭的地方台鐵裡面是不列為落石區了。但是很奇怪了公路局是把它列為落石區了。 |
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是同樣一座山,同樣一個地方。台九線這個鐵公路是並行的,是連在一起的。為什麼一個單位說落石區,一個單位說不是?我先初步說明一下。台九線是在鐵路的上面,所以台九有它的邊坡,然後鐵路在下面,鐵路有它的邊坡。所以不是嗎?它等於是從……它掉到公路不會再往下掉,再滾過去就到鐵路啊。 |
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108.72 |
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他一條上面一條下面啊你有規定石頭只能滾到公路就要停下來啊如果你公路以上是落水區你鐵路當然也是吧這樣才合理吧 |
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120.816 |
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那花蓮港鐵所在公路公總說它那個邊坡是落實區那台鐵同樣經過啊就旁邊有兩條線上下平行的啊它就變不是落實區的確那個公路齁它事實上我們等於在我們蘇阿安裡面的和平到合作我們要全部再去全部要再去通盤檢討檢測啦因為當時就是發生了那個落實的意外嘛 |
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150.287 |
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地震嘛你知道台灣現在地震恐怕越來越頻繁了2022年台東就六級多啦今年2024年花蓮就七級多了上次大地震在台南2018年嘛對不對也是六級多大地震嘛好那就算公路局把它列為落實區啊那公路局啊既然是落實區他也沒有安裝落實警告系統那種地方也沒有也沒有 |
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180.799 |
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也沒有裝上所以他沒有辦法預先偵測到落實他也沒辦法去警告台鐵那我來找一下目前公務局的落實警告系統就做大概這8個地方了是經費預算不夠嗎還是你逐年安裝還沒有做好 |
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203.753 |
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各位報告因為我們主要還是做就是說防落實的相關的一個設施啦因為告警的話就是說他其實是就是說是先警告就是用路者比如說前方的不過因為有落實的地方的話其實我們是先做整治你不要看這個小事情喔你那個變波檢測都假的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
224.619 |
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同一個邊坡台鐵說不是落實區公總說是我就用這個案用這個案子給你參考了而且這個地方確實發生損害啦還好啦落實沒有直接擊中車廂啦有沒有導致火車翻覆或遊客有死傷啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
249.552 |
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我跟鐵路跟公路都要做個討論啦再來我來談一下今天的主題啦國六東延到花蓮的問題啦我記得當以前高空局有估算過預算嘛好像3年前估8815這樣子大概8000億左右8000億嘛那3年前嘛而如果以現在啊我看要破照啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
278.713 |
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289.197 |
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三年來再加上物條再加上人工物料的漲價這超級乾坑啊那重點是蓋得起來嗎?你做得開嗎?在這個國民黨提的這個東延國六東延裡面它規定10年要完成各位你知道雪水12公里挖了15年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
308.564 |
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325.029 |
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在這個國六東延裡面啊最困難的就是能高山啊能高山碎到幾公里?好像18公里喔17公里多比雪碎還要長雪碎挖15年喔能高山要挖幾年? |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
327.234 |
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353.479 |
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跟委員報告這個還要再評估還要再評估嗎?也效益很長而且龍高山那個地質很脆弱的啦什麼岩盤啦、湧泉啦等等啦雪碎啊死了13個人啦我在龍高山這種難度啦我看會更危險啦對不對那同時啊你為了要東延到花蓮啦你那個橋墩要架很高啦因為他才可以衝過高山嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
354.431 |
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380.56 |
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我看你的計劃裡面估算喔哇這個這非常可怕啦台灣第二高的啦就附近啦國信啦南投國信鄉的那個橋墩啦70公尺啦就橋墩高有23層樓啦你現在國六如果東延喔到霧社啦就超將近1150公尺啦比國信還要高很多啦所以呢橋墩恐怕一定會破100公尺啦100公尺30幾層樓高的橋墩欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
385.305 |
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413.552 |
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然後你要再估算他能不能抵擋天災強震啊而且他也不是直接就裝那麼高你要慢慢慢慢慢慢讓車子滑坡上去啊所以這個工程啊有相當高的一個困難度啦那以前我看這個計劃裡面吳君濟委員啊他說拿歐洲尤其像瑞士的鐵路隧道來做比較啦那瑞士的上面都古老上面的研板他那個非常穩定啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
414.363 |
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436.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
台灣不一樣喔台灣的中央山脈啊是新生的山脈尤其像龍高山這種喔中央山脈地址那是片岩一片一片那個很脆弱那歪下去很容易整個崩塌下來所以困難度不知道是絕對是遠高於像類似隧道這種等等啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
436.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
464.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為你要挖隧道你要把那個岩盤破壞掉因為它整個都石頭嘛你要把它拗開嘛雪碎的岩盤啦岩覆啦就岩、岩、岩、那個岩盤的覆蓋高度大概750公尺國六這個都超過1000公尺各位可以想一想當時挖雪碎喔50幾噸拗到剪痛口啦那現在啊限定國六到花蓮要10年完成那怎麼可能啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
466.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
488.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
而且你還經過了丹大野生動物保護區、能丹野鳥棲息地。這光是環評,環評又做到合理合約了。那怎麼可能?怎麼可能限期完成?而且啊是破造的工程。蓋下去如果蓋到一半蓋不起來。蓋下去以後安全性的考量。這超級成功法案。也這樣亂闖啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
493.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
513.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
對不對?現在花東公路最重要的應該趕快去做蘇花安啦。蘇花改做好了嘛。趕快去做蘇花安趕快把它做好啦。這是花蓮很回家安全的路啦。對不對?這個已經在做要趕快去做。包括過地方的溝通啦。蘇花安供一個高價居民就反對啦。 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
514.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
541.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
反對沒辦法他稍微一修改就經過國家公園你看環評就卡那裡更何況整個國道六這個環評恐怕更複雜所以我是覺得政策一定要考量現實面還有它的可執行度否則都弄不好了好不好提起點來跟大家做參考交換意見謝謝部長、謝謝主席 |