| IVOD_ID |
149762 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149762 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-36-6 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
6 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-13T10:18:47+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-13T10:29:25+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:38 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7ed54bd69a3b6903e0c85a70a10b903b3ee337926754d043f8ba9b0039caa7a6f0154244ba07af355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
謝龍介 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:18:47 - 10:29:25 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。） |
| gazette.lineno |
789 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
謝委員龍介：（10時18分）請秘書長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：有請劉秘書長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：委員早。 |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
謝委員龍介：秘書長好。你跟賴總統共事過多久？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：在臺南市政府大概將近3年，在總統府時間比較久。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
謝委員龍介：總統府也不是他當主管，我是問你臺南市，3年你對他應該滿瞭解的，在個性上，他也有一些優點，對於制度，我的認定是他還算蠻尊重制度，是不是這樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
謝委員龍介：剛剛貴院的報告就提到，現在公務人員考的人很少，看你們的報告這10年來等於降了56%。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：是，我剛剛有補充說明，那個是用最高峰期來比較。 |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
謝委員龍介：當然也不是只有我們啦，日本跟韓國也是這樣。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：的確是。 |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
謝委員龍介：日本就提到要準備提出無條件週休3日鼓勵大家來報考，是這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：有這樣的一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
謝委員龍介：尤其是比較專業的，譬如土木的、建築的、電機的，你們的考試缺差不多都沒人要來了。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：還是有啦，只是有時候會出現不足額的現象。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
謝委員龍介：幾乎零，每次都欠缺那些啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：它是有不足額。 |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
謝委員龍介：他薪資年薪大概70、80萬，可是我現在講外面最低的，對這些人才最低的薪資，最少年薪140萬到150萬，好一點的，水平高一點點的，差不多200萬，你看誰要來考？這是其中一個原因啦，不來考最主要還有一個原因，就是我不用考就可以去上班了，對不對？10年前本院就有做過決議，機關約聘不得超過5%嘛，你們知道嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：是，有這個限制。 |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
謝委員龍介：所以那時候立法院還算不錯，要求各機關的時候立法院本身就是到期就不續聘，立法院有做到喔！可是你們有做到嗎？沒有啊！你看數位部，你不要看我！你們有認同數位部的做法嗎？我剛剛問你，就是依你跟賴清德共事過及對他的理解，他會同意現在數位部這種做法嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：我跟委員報告，各組織會不會超過5%的約聘人員，有時候組織法上會有特別的規定，數位部或金融機構、文化機構，都有這樣的規定。 |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
謝委員龍介：沒有啦，它有比較離譜啊！九百多個！ |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：我跟委員報告，他們也找不了那麼多人，現實上並沒有用到這麼多。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
謝委員龍介：不是啦，整個裝在你的口袋裡面，九百七十幾個缺它準備聘用幾個？這不用考試呢！ |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：它組織法裡面，我記得每一個機關100個，如果數位部的話。 |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
謝委員龍介：對啊！那有幾個機關？ |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：其他機關，因為我記得在科技或是文化部、金融機構裡面，有的幾十個不同……立法院也有啦，也有相關規定。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
謝委員龍介：然後它還要持續從民間徵才？ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
謝委員龍介：這講到考試制度，從民間徵才為什麼不透過考選來？ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：有，我們今年有開辦資安的類科，從今年開始，我們也注意到大家很關心這個問題，所以我們跟數位部一起來研究，然後在今年的高考開始，我們增加了資安類科。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
謝委員龍介：數位部現在用的這一些，你們是今年開辦，什麼時候考？ |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：今年7月份高普考。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
謝委員龍介：我拜託你追蹤一下啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
謝委員龍介：就現在數位部已經聘用的這些人，有多少人去考？最後有多少人通過了？這個資料，考試結束後你們要給我，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：您說的是他們今年有沒有來考的狀況，是不是？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
謝委員龍介：因為他已經聘用…… |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：好，瞭解。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
謝委員龍介：所有考的人，我要你報考的這些資料，就是說我們立法院有必要去做人事任用的追蹤啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
謝委員龍介：因為你們不方便啦！我幫你們做事情你們知道嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
許部長舒翔：跟委員報告，因為他們的報考資料不會呈現他們在數位部工作，所以未來…… |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
謝委員龍介：不用，你將報考人的那些資料給我就可以比對，我們來比對啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
許部長舒翔：除非數位部這邊願意提供名單跟我們來做比對。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
謝委員龍介：我們可以來比對啊！因為它裡面請了什麼人，我可以跟他要啊，對不對？我跟你說這是「紅龜包豆餡」─偷渡啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：委員剛剛講的有…… |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
謝委員龍介：偷渡這種的要幹嘛？所以為什麼賴清德會找人點名他最不適任？第一個要甩丟掉的人就是他，你不知道嗎？你不要跟他太靠近我跟你說，真的啦！你會被他害到啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：委員，您剛剛講一個問題很重要、很關鍵，其實他們最大的問題可能不是考不考，而是因為薪資跟民間的落差真的很大，所以考進來或約聘僱的人才有留不住的問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
謝委員龍介：問題是，相對剝奪感就出來了嘛！因為他不用考試，錢領的比我們這裡考試的還要多，你聽得懂嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：是，所以我們也希望來解決這個問題啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
謝委員龍介：你是考試院呢！ |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：是，所以我們就積極來推動資安類科。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
謝委員龍介：你應該要比我還憤慨才對啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：因為它組織法裡面的規定是立法院立法，這我們必須尊重。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
謝委員龍介：這麼多公務人員，大家都是經過考選，大家是拼命考上的，領的錢比他們進去的還少，連他們的七成都不到！不是啦，我跟你說，這不服啦！公務人員如果「起叛」，這個國家就倒了，對不對？我們的文官制度在亞洲可算是數一數二，我是捨不得你們讓一個部會把你們搞得整個都亂了調，這不好啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[55][1] |
我要請教一下公務人員的退休，按照CPI這樣調整，你覺得跟勞工這些團體能不能一致啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：我是不是請周部長來回答？ |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
謝委員龍介：包括老年給付，對比起來，我們可以跟他們一致嗎？在條件跟辦法方面。 |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
周部長志宏：我們的規定，基本上在公保的部分跟勞保比較，可能勞保稍微多一點，但是就退休…… |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
謝委員龍介：能不能一致啦？有辦法做到這樣嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
周部長志宏：我們儘量讓公務人員的這些退撫制度不要比勞工差，基本上要有…… |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
謝委員龍介：我知道儘量啊，那你要怎麼努力啊？ |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
周部長志宏：我們現在建構的制度，就退休的部分，其實不見得比勞工差啦，目前只有公保年金給付或者是公保一次退的老年給付，基本上給付率會稍微比勞保低一點，但是…… |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
謝委員龍介：能不能做到一樣？ |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
周部長志宏：一樣不見得好啦！因為勞保之所以窟窿那麼大，也是因為它給付率比較高啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[65][0] |
謝委員龍介：你對政府的財政這麼體諒，但公務人員很慘欸！像你當部長，你說這些公務人員會心寒耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[66][0] |
周部長志宏：我們會儘量爭取公務人員的待遇，尤其是退休制度的部分，現在因為已經實施新制了…… |
| gazette.blocks[67][0] |
謝委員龍介：公務人員為國家打拼一輩子，退休之後給付能不能跟勞工一樣？差了差不多百分之一、二而已耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[68][0] |
周部長志宏：我們退休給與每4年或是 CPI達到正負5%的時候會做調整，而且今年也已經做調整了。 |
| gazette.blocks[69][0] |
謝委員龍介：我知道啦！你今年調整的4%就差不多都被通膨吃光了，這哪有什麼，還少1%，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[70][0] |
周部長志宏：因為如果是隨 CPI要看適用的對象，因為這一次適用對象是112年12月31日以前退休都適用，所以不能照CPI啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[71][0] |
謝委員龍介：好啦，沒關係，所有的公務人員都有這種期待啦，退休的家庭……政府是這樣啦，要有一個態度。秘書長，就是不要把大家搞到均貧，要把壞的拉起來讓大家都均富。勞工辛苦沒錯，但不能把公務人員打到跟勞工一樣辛苦，不是這樣啦，要把勞工拉起來讓大家均富，不要搞到大家都均貧，要有這個概念，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[72][0] |
劉秘書長建忻：謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[73][0] |
主席：謝謝謝委員，謝謝秘書長及部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[73][1] |
接下來有請林委員思銘質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
76 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-36-6 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
沈發惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
謝龍介 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
翁曉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
吳思瑤 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
吳宗憲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
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2024-03-13 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1131201 |
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1131201_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業
務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢 |
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請秘書長好,有請劉秘書長秘書長你好早安你跟那個賴總統共事過多久在台南市政府大概將近三年三年喔在總統府 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
41.167 |
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總統府不是他做主管的,我是問你第一次那三年你對他應該蠻了解的所以說個性上應該他也算,他也有一些優點他對於制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
64.093 |
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他對制度我認定他還算蠻尊重制度嘛是不是這樣是那你知道就是說剛剛貴院的報告就提到說現在公務人員考的人很少看你的報告這10年來等於降了百分之五十幾五十六 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
92.885 |
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118.938 |
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我剛有補充說明那個是用最高峰期來比較當然啊可是也不是只有我們啦日本到韓國也是這樣啊那日本他就提到說要準備提出這個無條件週休三日來鼓勵大家來報考是不是這樣有這樣的一個尤其是 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
121.443 |
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144.485 |
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比較專業的,譬如說土木的、建築書、建築的、土木的、電機的,那幾乎差不多你們課差不多都沒人要來啊還是有啦,只是說他有時候會出現不足額幾乎零欸,每次都欠了啊那薪資的話年薪大概七八十萬嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
146.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
173.029 |
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可是他外面我現在講外面最低的喔對這些人才最低的薪資啊相接八四萬年薪啊一百四到一百五那好一點的就是他水平高一點點的就正常一般的就差不多兩百萬啊你看什麼人要來幫你扣啊這是基中一個原因啊最主要就是怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
174.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
177.213 |
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有這個限制所以那陣立法院還算不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
203.393 |
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要求各機關的時候呢立法院本身就是到期就不續聘立法院有做到嗎可是你呢沒有啊你看數位部你也看好了數位部你有沒有認同他做我問你我剛剛問你就說你跟賴清德的共識對他的理解他會同意現在數位部這種做法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
232.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
256.003 |
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我跟委員報告各組織可以會不會超過5%的會聘人員那他有時候組織法制會有特別的規定那有數位部啦或金融機構都有這樣的規定沒有啦那要有比較離譜啊但實務上我跟委員報告他們也找不了那麼多人現實上並沒有用到這麼多不是啦你賣錢買你就啊啊啊整個都在你那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
257.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
271.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
九百七十幾個他準備要聘用幾個不用科技捏這個他第一個還是他在組織法裡面我記得每個機關一百個所以如果說數位補的話對啊還有幾個機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
275.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
295.879 |
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其他機關因為我記得在科技啦或是文化部金融機構裡面有的幾十個不同立法院也有啦然後他還要持續從民間徵才這講的科技最多嘛從民間徵才為什麼不透過考選來有我們有今年開辦了資安特的類科有 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
296.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
297.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
現在數位部已經聘用了這些人了 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
321.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
340.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
有多少人去考啊?最好多少人通過啊?這個資料你最好你科技結束你來給我好不好?您說的是他們今年會有沒有來考的狀況是不是?就是因為他已經聘用了喔 了解 好所有考的 我要你報考這個資料就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
342.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
363.503 |
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我們立法院有必要去做這種人事任用的追蹤啦因為你們沒方便啦我不替你們做事情你知道嗎跟委員報告因為他們的報告資料不會呈現他們在蘇衛部工作因為你幫報告的人主要我就可以比對我們比對啊我們可以比對啊因為他裡面請什麼人我可以幫忙啊對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
372.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
394.219 |
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我告訴你這叫紅骨寶刀啦頭刀喔 頭刀這種的說什麼所以為什麼賴清德會找人點名他最不適任套一個要跟海特教的就是他 你不知道嗎你不知道他是誰最壞我告訴你真的啦 我問 你的姓海德啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
397.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
414.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
其實您剛剛講一個問題很重要很關鍵啦就是說其實真的是他們最大的問題可能不是考不考而是因為薪資跟民間的落差真的很大所以問題相對剝奪感的出來了嗎?因為沒有科技 比我們這裡的科技還要多你聽得懂嗎?是 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
416.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
436.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以我們也希望能解決這個問題那你是考試院呢?是,所以我們就積極來推動你應該比我比較分開、比較對勒因為這個,他的組織法裡面的規定是立法院立法啦這麼多公務人員,大家都是經過考選,大家都拚到出來你還要是比他們利益比較好,不跟他們的妻子不是啦,這,這我要說,這不合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
443.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
460.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
公務人員起盤就對了,這個國家就對了我們的文官制度在亞洲可算是屬一屬二我不是不敢跟你們說,給一個補費把我們弄得整個都亂經了,這不好那我要請教一下,公務人員的退休 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
468.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
488.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
按照CPR的調整,你覺得合理的團體能不能一致,能不能一致啊?請周部長來回答包括老年級、富家就對比起來,我們能不能一致、調整及辦法? |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
491.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
513.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
我們的規定基本上在公保的部分那可能跟勞保相對比較可能勞保稍微多一點但是就退休制度﹖能不能一致啦﹖有辦法做到這樣嗎我們盡量讓公務人員的這些退府制度不要比勞工差﹖你要怎麼努力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
516.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
543.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們現在建構的制度其實就退休的部分不見得會比老公差目前只有公保年金給付或者是公保的一次退的那個老年給付基本上那個給付率會稍微比老保低一點能不能做到一樣一樣不見得好因為老保之所以那個窟窿那麼大也是因為他的給付率比較高 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
546.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
546.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
李卓人議員 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
561.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
584.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
公務人員為國家發表一四人退休後說要來扛勞工這幾乎可以扛人一樣差差不多2%而已我們退休給予會每四年或是CPI達到正負5%的時候會做調整而且今年已經做調整了我知道你今年調整的4%就差不多都去通膨吃料料去還有減1% |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
588.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
604.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
因為如果是隨CPI要看適用的對象因為這一次適用對象是沒關係所有的公務人員齁 都有這種機械啦那退休的家庭政府是這樣 要有一個態度啦 譬如說就說不可以把大家拉到變三隻要把肉拉起來 讓大家都變好東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
615.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
615.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
謝謝謝委員 |