| IVOD_ID |
149477 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149477 |
| 日期 |
2024-03-07 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-1-19-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
1 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2024-03-07T10:17:38+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2024-03-07T10:29:34+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:56 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1441ba9c2015bdbe175cd3d1cd9a4f8b3ebf0b3ad7e91c05f8ba9b0039caa7a68c21961156552d785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:17:38 - 10:29:34 |
| 會議時間 |
2024-03-07T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【3月4日、3月6日及7日三天一次會】） |
| gazette.lineno |
390 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時18分）主席、委員。請部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：好，我們再請王部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還有董事長，今天是總經理嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
主席：請台電董事長、總經理，請哪一位？ |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：總經理好了。 |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
主席：請總經理，董事長不用，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。 |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
王部長美花：是，委員好。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：辛苦了，今天談電價調漲，我們看歷年電價一覽表，大家都知道平均電價都在提升，我們看電價漲價的歷程，開會的時間、審議的時間在10月、4月，早期也有在6月、也有在7月，這個規定有什麼樣的考量嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
王部長美花：原則上都是在3月跟9月召開會議，然後來決定4月跟10月以後的電價情形。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：3月跟9月？ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
王部長美花：對，3月跟9月開會，然後來決定4月跟10月以後的電價情形。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以今年會在什麼時候開會？ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
王部長美花：都是3月在開會。 |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：已經開了嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
王部長美花：相關作業的小組會先開，然後再由審議會來召開。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有時候在6月，有時候在7月是…… |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
王部長美花：以前沒有比較明確的規定，原則上就是這兩個時間在開會。 |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們通稱這個時候是看守內閣，部長，過去我們都是事務官，事務官當知道總統換了，然後院長或是部長可能會換，有這可能性的時候，通常很多重大的政策，因為這個是涉及到重大政策，都會往後延。所以我看有時候是7月，有時候是4月、6月，很可能就是有這樣的一個考量，所以這個部分，我們必須第一個大原則要先請部長跟院長報告，是不是還是要考量這個因素？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
王部長美花：不過，我跟委員說明，因為這一次其實是延續的執政，所以也不能完全叫做看守內閣啦，另外，事實上在馬總統2016年的時候，他其實也有開會，也有去調整。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我只是給你建議啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
王部長美花：是，謝謝委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個部分我們看你的理由，國際燃料價格飆漲係台電虧損主因，尤其提到俄烏戰爭，導致國際燃料價格暴漲，台電購煤均價由2020年每噸64美元，漲至2022年的276美元，這是事實沒有錯。 |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
王部長美花：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：請問一下我們台電購煤，是不是會後可以提供，還是現在就有資料？就是購煤的量，在這10年之間，有沒有什麼變動？這10年之間是一樣，還是有增加購煤的量？ |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是金額喔！是量。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
王總經理耀庭：大概差不多一億噸左右啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：多少？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
王總經理耀庭：大概九千萬噸，九千多到一億噸，大概就差不多那個數量啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：九千萬噸？ |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
王總經理耀庭：慢慢逐步降低，因為我們燃煤的占比從前幾年的43%，現在已經降到34%左右，所以燃煤的部分逐步在降。 |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：10年來有一直降嗎？還是曾經停頓過？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
王總經理耀庭：也曾經停頓過啦！因為大概10年前那時候，我們林口電廠那些新的燃煤機組還沒上來，上來之後當然有稍微幅度上升一點，但是整體目前的趨勢，這幾年趨勢都是逐步在下降。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，這個數字再提供，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
王總經理耀庭：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我現在都先引用經濟部的報告，這裡面提到，2015年核能一、二、三廠尚在服役中，在當時核能發電占比16%，火力發電占比約百分之八十，所以火力發電的占比，也提供10年來的，可以嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
王總經理耀庭：可以。 |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：其實跟購煤有關係啦，火力發電的占比。 |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
王總經理耀庭：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當然這裡面，我們數字寫法會這樣寫啦，我是公務員我也會這樣寫，但是如果我們要去探討，真正要探討的話，尤其是台電，真正要探討的時候就要很誠實，而且要很詳細。我為什麼說要詳細呢？這裡面漏寫了什麼呢？核四啊！我們本來有核四啊，不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
王部長美花：沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
王總經理耀庭：核四沒有運轉過！ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道啊，我知道啊！核四那個花了多少千億，對不對？如果有核四就不是這樣囉，對不對？所以這個部分，就台電事業的立場，如果有核四的時候，又是怎麼樣？因為那畢竟已經蓋了，花了人民幾千億的納稅錢蓋了，多少你還記得嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
王總經理耀庭：2,838啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，所以這個部分又不一樣啊！所以這個都是台電要提供事實的數據，能夠讓決策者參考，因為臺灣不能一直這樣啊！未來可能要怎麼樣去改變，政策不是不能改變啊！所以這個部分，數字的提供很重要。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][1] |
經濟部的報告裡面也提到，2023、2024分別編列預算增資1,500億及1,000億元，並以特別預算補貼500億，以支持台電的財務，這個是有需要的。這一次有沒有考慮特別編列預算增資或者是特別預算補貼？這次有沒有？ |
| gazette.blocks[46][0] |
王部長美花：有，我們也在爭取當中。 |
| gazette.blocks[47][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要強力的爭取。 |
| gazette.blocks[48][0] |
王部長美花：是。 |
| gazette.blocks[49][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要強力的爭取。所以本席認為不應該調漲電價，因為現在我們的物價上漲，大家都知道缺工、缺料，很多建設也是缺料，都影響很多的民生。所以要強力的爭取，繼續編列預算、增資或以特別預算撥補台電的虧損，現在超徵稅收是多少你知道嗎？3,617億耶！ |
| gazette.blocks[50][0] |
王部長美花：不過委員，第一個，這個不叫超徵啦！第二個，3,600是包括中央跟地方的部分。 |
| gazette.blocks[51][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，但是在臺灣已經用這個詞不是我所創的，不是我所創的喔！部長，這也不是我所創的，「超徵稅收」這個大家都是這樣用，媒體也都這樣用。 |
| gazette.blocks[52][0] |
王部長美花：應該說徵收的稅收跟當時的預算，有多出來這樣子。 |
| gazette.blocks[53][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：為了照顧民生，穩定物價兼顧產業，強烈的要去跟行政院、決策者爭取，要用超徵稅收來撥補，非不得已的時候，當然我不願意、不希望，那家庭用電會不會漲？可不可以不漲？當然不要漲啊！家庭用電部分，部長。 |
| gazette.blocks[54][0] |
王部長美花：這個部分我們在過往幾次確實都有按照這三個大原則來做規劃，所以規劃的是非常的細膩啦！這個部分我們相關的、客觀的數據等等，都會拿給審議委員會來做參考。 |
| gazette.blocks[55][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以現在有哪些數據？ |
| gazette.blocks[56][0] |
王部長美花：因為…… |
| gazette.blocks[57][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：家庭用電的部分，你們一定有幾個評估嘛，對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[58][0] |
王部長美花：是，是。 |
| gazette.blocks[59][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我是老公務員，我知道會有幾個評估，你可以講嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[60][0] |
王部長美花：事實上我的報告也有提，像現在我們在120度以下的，不僅2004到現在沒有漲，而且還曾經降過，所以現在的120度以下是1.63元，這個的價格跟現在的成本價，大概只有四折左右，其實是非常非常的低。 |
| gazette.blocks[61][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：反正我強烈的，也請部長強烈的去爭取…… |
| gazette.blocks[62][0] |
王部長美花：是，是。 |
| gazette.blocks[63][0] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：台電不應調漲電價，好，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[64][0] |
主席（鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員代）：接下來我們請楊瓊瓔召委質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
250 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-1-19-2 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
張啓楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
洪申翰 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
徐巧芯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
王世堅 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
黃國昌 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
羅智強 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
洪孟楷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
王美惠 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
劉建國 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
林俊憲 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
187 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2024-03-07 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1130801 |
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1130801_00005 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長就「電價調漲對產業、民生等衝擊研擬配套措
施」進行報告，並備質詢 |
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請鄭天財委員請作詢答。 |
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70.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
主席我們委員還有我們部長還有請部長好我們再請黃部長還有董事長總經理嗎今天請台電董事長總經理請來一位總經理好了請總經理董事長不用謝謝好部長好是委員好好辛苦了這個今天談這個電價調漲 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
74.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
89.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我們看這個例年電價這個一覽表大家都知道這個平均電價都在提升我們看這個電價漲價的一個過程、歷程這個開會的時間到底審議的時間在10月、4月早期也有在6月也有在7月這個有 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
105.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
132.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
規定在什麼樣的考量嗎?原則上都是在3月跟9月召開會議然後來決定4月跟10月以後的電價的情形3月跟9月對,3月跟9月開會然後來決定4月跟10月以後的這個電價的情形所以今年會在什麼時候開會?都是3月再開會已經開了嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
134.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
151.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
相關的作業的小組會先開然後再由審議會來召開那有時候在6月有時候在7月是那個以前沒有比較明確的規定那原則上原則上就是這兩個時間在開會這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
159.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
183.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這個我們很明顯的通稱這個時候是看守內閣通稱我們都過去部長過去我們都是事務官事務官這個在當知道這個總統換了然後這個院長可能會換或是部長可能會換 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
185.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
212.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
的可能性的時候通常很多的重大政策因為這個是涉及到重大政策都會往後延往後延所以我在看的時候有時候7月有時候4月、6月很可能就是有這樣的一個考量所以這個部分我們必須要去第一個答言者要先請部長跟院長來報告是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
214.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
235.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
還是要考量這個因素不過我跟委員說明因為這一次其實是延續的執政所以也不能完全叫做cancel那個那另外就是說事實上在馬總統2015年的時候他其實也有開會也有去調整2016的時候對我只是給你建議是是謝謝委員這個部分我們看你的理由這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
243.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
254.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
國際燃料價格飆漲是臺電虧損主因尤其提到二屋戰爭導致國際燃料價格暴漲臺電購買均價由2020年每噸64美元漲至2022年的276元這是事實沒有錯那請問一下這個我們過電 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
273.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
295.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我們台電購煤是不是匯後可以提供還是現在就有資料就是說這個購煤的量在這個10年之間有沒有什麼變動這10年之間是一樣還是說有增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
296.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
296.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
韓國瑜主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
324.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
347.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
有一直降嗎?還是說曾經停頓過?也曾經停頓過了因為那個時候大概10年前那時候我們林口的電廠那些新的燃煤機組還沒上來上來之後當然有稍微幅度上升一點但是整個整體目前的趨勢都是逐步在這幾年趨勢都是逐步在下降好 這個數字再提供好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
349.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
378.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們看這個我現在都先引用你的報告啊經濟部的報告這裡面提到這個2015年核能123廠尚在服役中在當時核能發電占比16%火力發電占比約80%所以火力發電的占比也提供10年來的可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
380.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
403.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
可以,就會其實跟那個購煤有關係啦,購煤有關係。好,火力發電的占比。當然這裡面,這個我們這樣的數字,寫法當然會這樣寫啦。我是公務員,我也會這樣寫啦。但是如果我們要去探討,真正要探討的話, |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
405.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
405.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我知道!我知道! |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
428.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
454.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那個花了多少千億對不對合適啊如果有合適呢就不是這樣了對不對所以這個部分舊台電的立場舊台電這個事業的立場如果有合適的時候又是怎麼樣所以這個部分因為畢竟已經蓋了花了人民的納稅錢蓋了 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
459.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
461.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
臺灣不能一直這樣啊未來可能要怎麼樣去改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
489.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
517.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
政策不是不能改變嗎?所以這個部分這個數字的提供很重要好這個經濟部的報告裡面也提到2023、2024分別編列預算增資1500億及1000億元並以特別預算補貼500億以支持台電的財務這個是有需要的這個是有需要的那這一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
519.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
542.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
有沒有考慮特別便利預算增資或是特別預算補貼?這次有沒有?有,我們也在爭取當中,是。要強力的爭取,要強力的爭取。所以本席認為不應該調漲電價,因為現在這個我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
548.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
549.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
三千六百一十七億元 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
577.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
585.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
三千六百一十七...不過委員這個第一個齁不叫超增啦齁那第二個那個三千六是包括中央跟地方的部分對 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
586.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
612.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
好 這個但是因為在台灣已經用這個用詞不是我所創的不是我所創的部長這也不是我所創的超徵稅收這個大家都是這樣用媒體都這樣用應該說徵收的稅收跟當時的預算有多出來這樣子為了照顧民生穩定物價兼顧產業強烈的要去跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
613.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
639.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
行政院決策者要用超徵稅收來去撥補。非不得已的時候,當然我不願意,我不希望。家庭用電,家庭用電會不會漲?可不可以不漲?當然不要漲啊!家庭用電不漲。 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
639.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
640.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
所以現在有哪些數據?家庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
662.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
691.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
用電的部分你們一定有幾個評估嘛 對不對我是老公務員知道會幾個評估嘛 可以講嗎事實上我的報告也有提像現在我們在120度以下的因為不僅2004到現在沒有漲而且還曾經降過所以現在的120度以下是1.63那這個的價格跟現在的成本價大概只有4折左右其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
691.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
701.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
非常非常的低是反正我的強烈的也請你請部長強烈的去爭取是是台電不應調漲電價好謝謝 |