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完整會議 @ 第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第23次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:32:06,530 | 00:32:09,410 | 好 我們現在開會 請逐密報告出席人數 |
| 00:32:09,850 | 00:32:12,330 | 報告委員會 出席委員務人員已阻法盡人數 |
| 00:32:13,480 | 00:32:15,800 | 那我們現在開會進行報告事項 |
| 00:32:15,800 | 00:32:18,160 | 請宣讀上次會議議事錄 |
| 00:32:19,220 | 00:32:23,340 | 立法院第十一屆第五會籍經濟委員會第二十二次全體委員會議事錄 |
| 00:32:23,340 | 00:32:25,980 | 時間115年7月22日星期三 |
| 00:32:25,980 | 00:32:27,900 | 9時至10時48分 |
| 00:32:27,900 | 00:32:29,580 | 地點紅樓101會議室 |
| 00:32:29,580 | 00:32:31,380 | 出席人數 邱一營等14人 |
| 00:32:31,930 | 00:32:33,850 | 業習人員劉書斌等10人 |
| 00:32:33,850 | 00:32:35,850 | 業習人員經濟部部長公明星等 |
| 00:32:35,850 | 00:32:37,530 | 主席 召集委員邱志偉 |
| 00:32:37,530 | 00:32:38,170 | 報告事項 |
| 00:32:38,170 | 00:32:39,450 | 宣讀上次會議事錄 |
| 00:32:39,450 | 00:32:40,530 | 決定 確定 |
| 00:32:40,530 | 00:32:41,290 | 團事項 |
| 00:32:41,290 | 00:32:42,650 | 1.繼續審查 |
| 00:32:42,650 | 00:32:44,610 | 1.本問委員賴岳永等17人 |
| 00:32:44,610 | 00:32:45,850 | 委員蔡吉昌等19人 |
| 00:32:45,850 | 00:32:47,530 | 委員張家斌等20人 |
| 00:32:47,530 | 00:32:51,410 | 分別擬具能源管理法部門條件修正草案等3案 |
| 00:32:51,410 | 00:32:53,770 | 2.本問委員邱營等21人擬具 |
| 00:32:53,770 | 00:32:56,050 | 能源管理法第7條條件修正草案 |
| 00:32:56,050 | 00:32:59,010 | 3.本問委員邱一營等17人擬具 |
| 00:32:59,010 | 00:33:01,530 | 能源管理法增訂第19條之2 |
| 00:33:01,570 | 00:33:03,250 | 之2及第27條之1 |
| 00:33:03,250 | 00:33:05,010 | 天安法案 |
| 00:33:05,010 | 00:33:05,810 | 二審查 本 |
| 00:33:06,560 | 00:33:09,639 | 事本願行政院函情審議 |
| 00:33:09,639 | 00:33:11,639 | 能源管理法部份條件修正草案 |
| 00:33:12,340 | 00:33:14,420 | 本問委員鄭天才等17人 |
| 00:33:14,420 | 00:33:15,900 | 委員徐心瑩等16人 |
| 00:33:15,900 | 00:33:17,460 | 委員楊雄英等23人 |
| 00:33:17,460 | 00:33:18,860 | 委員陳庭菲等20人 |
| 00:33:18,860 | 00:33:20,540 | 委員邱志偉等16人 |
| 00:33:20,540 | 00:33:23,540 | 分別擬具能源管理法部份條件修正草案等5案 |
| 00:33:24,210 | 00:33:26,210 | 6.本問委員郭國安等16人擬具 |
| 00:33:26,210 | 00:33:28,330 | 能源管理法增訂第19條之2 |
| 00:33:28,330 | 00:33:30,530 | 及第27條之1條件草案 |
| 00:33:30,530 | 00:33:32,930 | 7.本問委員鄭天才等16人擬具 |
| 00:33:32,930 | 00:33:35,210 | 能源管理法第2條條件修正草案 |
| 00:33:35,210 | 00:33:36,770 | 談事項合并詢答 |
| 00:33:36,770 | 00:33:38,530 | 經濟部部長龔明星報告後 |
| 00:33:38,530 | 00:33:40,610 | 委員邱一營等10人提出質詢 |
| 00:33:40,610 | 00:33:43,250 | 就由經濟部部長龔明星等及其答覆 |
| 00:33:43,250 | 00:33:44,930 | 登記發文委員除不在場者外 |
| 00:33:44,930 | 00:33:46,850 | 均以均以發言完畢詢答結束 |
| 00:33:46,850 | 00:33:48,970 | 委員謝一鳳 傅坤琦 蔡依宜 |
| 00:33:48,970 | 00:33:50,330 | 張家俊及賴榮 |
| 00:33:50,370 | 00:33:51,889 | 所提順利執行列入紀錄 |
| 00:33:51,889 | 00:33:52,889 | 刊登通報 |
| 00:33:53,260 | 00:33:55,060 | 書面質詢和未及答覆部分 |
| 00:33:55,060 | 00:33:56,180 | 請相關單位於一週內 |
| 00:33:56,180 | 00:33:57,900 | 以書面答覆並複製本會 |
| 00:33:57,900 | 00:33:59,900 | 為沒有要求期限者從即鎖定 |
| 00:34:01,260 | 00:34:02,140 | 詢答結束 |
| 00:34:02,140 | 00:34:03,860 | 以上更安靜命定級繼續審查 |
| 00:34:03,860 | 00:34:04,860 | 散會 宣布完畢 |
| 00:34:05,960 | 00:34:07,040 | 好 請問各位同仁 |
| 00:34:07,040 | 00:34:08,680 | 上次會議事務有錯誤 |
| 00:34:09,929 | 00:34:11,810 | 沒有錯 議事入確定 |
| 00:34:11,810 | 00:34:13,489 | 繼續進行討論事項 |
| 00:34:13,489 | 00:34:14,689 | 請一邊宣讀 |
| 00:34:26,409 | 00:34:28,370 | 本運委員邱志偉等21人擬具 |
| 00:34:28,370 | 00:34:29,129 | 能源發展條例 |
| 00:34:29,129 | 00:34:31,409 | 增訂第65條之一調研草案 |
| 00:34:31,409 | 00:34:33,770 | 3 本運委員邱政軍等20人擬具 |
| 00:34:33,770 | 00:34:34,529 | 能源發展條例 |
| 00:34:34,529 | 00:34:36,170 | 第3條調研修正草案 |
| 00:34:36,170 | 00:34:38,370 | 4 本運委員劉建國等18人擬具 |
| 00:34:38,370 | 00:34:39,129 | 能源發展條例 |
| 00:34:39,129 | 00:34:41,009 | 第2條調研修正草案 |
| 00:34:41,009 | 00:34:43,290 | 5 本運安民政黨黨團擬具 |
| 00:34:43,290 | 00:34:44,009 | 能源發展條例 |
| 00:34:44,009 | 00:34:47,009 | 第10條之一及第69條調研修正草案 |
| 00:34:47,009 | 00:34:48,489 | 2 繼續並按審查 |
| 00:34:48,489 | 00:34:50,569 | 1 本運委員萬美齡等17人 |
| 00:34:50,569 | 00:34:52,649 | 為林黛樺等18人分別擬具 |
| 00:34:52,649 | 00:34:53,370 | 隨圖保持法 |
| 00:34:53,409 | 00:34:55,049 | 第2條調研修正草案 |
| 00:34:55,049 | 00:34:55,569 | 等月案 |
| 00:34:56,649 | 00:34:58,529 | 本運委員林建吉等16人擬具 |
| 00:34:58,529 | 00:35:01,049 | 隨圖保持法第33條調研修正草案 |
| 00:35:01,049 | 00:35:03,129 | 3 本運臺灣民眾黨黨團擬具 |
| 00:35:03,129 | 00:35:05,250 | 隨圖保持法第23條第32條 |
| 00:35:05,250 | 00:35:07,450 | 及第33條調研修正草案 |
| 00:35:07,450 | 00:35:08,770 | 3 繼續並按審查 |
| 00:35:08,770 | 00:35:10,649 | 1 本運委員謝一鳳等17人 |
| 00:35:10,649 | 00:35:12,009 | 委員萬美齡等17人 |
| 00:35:12,009 | 00:35:14,930 | 委員林大漢等18人分別擬具 |
| 00:35:14,930 | 00:35:16,089 | 三部地保育利用條例 |
| 00:35:16,089 | 00:35:18,169 | 第2條調研修正草案等3案 |
| 00:35:18,169 | 00:35:20,410 | 2 本運委員徐富貴等17人 |
| 00:35:20,410 | 00:35:22,730 | 委員羅志強等16人分別擬具 |
| 00:35:22,730 | 00:35:23,970 | 三部地保育利用條例 |
| 00:35:23,970 | 00:35:26,169 | 第15條調研修正草案等2案 |
| 00:35:26,569 | 00:35:28,930 | 本運委員鄭天才等17人擬具 |
| 00:35:28,930 | 00:35:30,089 | 三部地保育利用條例 |
| 00:35:30,089 | 00:35:33,049 | 第2條及第37條調研修正草案 |
| 00:35:33,049 | 00:35:35,529 | 4 本運委員鄭天才等17人擬具 |
| 00:35:35,529 | 00:35:36,649 | 三部地保育利用條例 |
| 00:35:36,649 | 00:35:38,529 | 第37條調研修正草案 |
| 00:35:38,529 | 00:35:40,529 | 5 本運臺灣民眾黨黨團擬具 |
| 00:35:40,529 | 00:35:41,810 | 三部地保育利用條例 |
| 00:35:41,810 | 00:35:44,850 | 第10條、第34條及第35條 |
| 00:35:44,850 | 00:35:45,730 | 調研修正草案 |
| 00:35:45,730 | 00:35:46,250 | 宣布完畢 |
| 00:35:47,570 | 00:35:49,730 | 好在場的介紹一下 |
| 00:35:49,730 | 00:35:51,610 | 我們有這個呂一林委員 |
| 00:35:52,130 | 00:35:53,850 | 然後陳廷飛委員 |
| 00:35:54,650 | 00:35:56,090 | 初期的機關首長 |
| 00:35:56,090 | 00:35:59,130 | 首先農業部部長陳俊濟陳部長 |
| 00:36:00,030 | 00:36:03,030 | 農村發展水流保存署署長陳靜遠 |
| 00:36:04,060 | 00:36:05,860 | 農糧署副署長陳啟龍 |
| 00:36:06,830 | 00:36:09,190 | 農業級自然保衛署副署長廖一光 |
| 00:36:10,530 | 00:36:12,450 | 農業金融署副署長施捏田 |
| 00:36:13,950 | 00:36:16,189 | 農田水利署主任秘書朱孝恩 |
| 00:36:17,480 | 00:36:19,840 | 經濟部南院署副署長陳崇憲 |
| 00:36:21,530 | 00:36:23,810 | 水利署副總工人是王國良 |
| 00:36:25,550 | 00:36:27,990 | 電子調查匡位管理中心主長王偉光 |
| 00:36:29,120 | 00:36:32,200 | 台灣自然所公司財務處處長白榮譽 |
| 00:36:33,240 | 00:36:36,160 | 原住民族委員會土地管理處處長謝亞傑 |
| 00:36:37,029 | 00:36:39,109 | 內政部國土管理署一見管理組 |
| 00:36:39,109 | 00:36:40,870 | 檢認證供盤是真一拳 |
| 00:36:41,780 | 00:36:43,860 | 消防署專委陳建南 |
| 00:36:44,700 | 00:36:47,899 | 財政部國有財產署科長王永泰 |
| 00:36:49,000 | 00:36:52,320 | 交通部陸政籍大致是簡政黃順興 |
| 00:36:53,790 | 00:36:56,070 | 環境部環境委員署主長徐建雄 |
| 00:36:56,970 | 00:36:58,689 | 法務部參事料將限 |
| 00:37:01,960 | 00:37:05,440 | 本日議程所列討論事項三個法案 |
| 00:37:05,440 | 00:37:07,480 | 分別為農業發展條例 |
| 00:37:07,480 | 00:37:11,160 | 收土保持法及山坡地保育利用條例 |
| 00:37:11,160 | 00:37:13,319 | 部分條文相關修正草案 |
| 00:37:13,720 | 00:37:18,319 | 均以本會期5月6日巡達結束局宣讀條文完畢 |
| 00:37:18,640 | 00:37:20,520 | 今日繼續進行審查 |
| 00:37:20,520 | 00:37:22,839 | 依慣例就不進行廣泛討論 |
| 00:37:22,839 | 00:37:24,680 | 直接進行逐條討論 |
| 00:37:25,160 | 00:37:28,200 | 請先宣讀今日新提出之修正動議 |
| 00:37:34,960 | 00:37:36,160 | 水土保持法 |
| 00:37:36,640 | 00:37:39,320 | 臺灣民眾黨團提案水土保持法 |
| 00:37:40,200 | 00:37:43,880 | 委員洪育祥等三人提案水土保持法 |
| 00:37:43,880 | 00:37:48,080 | 第23條第32條第33條條文修正草案 |
| 00:37:48,710 | 00:37:52,110 | 第23條除第3項 |
| 00:37:53,790 | 00:37:54,990 | 因案 |
| 00:37:55,540 | 00:37:56,940 | 連續處罰 |
| 00:37:57,600 | 00:38:00,000 | 改成因案次連續處罰外 |
| 00:38:00,000 | 00:38:02,880 | 於同臺灣民眾黨團提案 |
| 00:38:03,200 | 00:38:04,160 | 第4項 |
| 00:38:06,310 | 00:38:12,390 | 第4項修正為以完工道路或設施支養戶 |
| 00:38:12,390 | 00:38:14,549 | 準用第一項及第二項規定 |
| 00:38:14,870 | 00:38:16,150 | 第32條 |
| 00:38:17,140 | 00:38:19,620 | 第一項罰則 |
| 00:38:21,110 | 00:38:24,630 | 為併科新臺幣200萬元以上 |
| 00:38:24,630 | 00:38:26,790 | 2500萬元以下罰金 |
| 00:38:26,790 | 00:38:30,950 | 於同臺灣民眾黨團提案第32條第一項 |
| 00:38:31,640 | 00:38:34,680 | 第二項修正為處以第二項 |
| 00:38:35,979 | 00:38:37,899 | 具中處一年以上 |
| 00:38:37,899 | 00:38:39,580 | 修正為處一年以上 |
| 00:38:39,580 | 00:38:40,939 | 七年以下有期徒刑 |
| 00:38:40,939 | 00:38:43,580 | 得併科新臺幣6000萬元以下罰金 |
| 00:38:43,580 | 00:38:46,140 | 因而致人於死者處五期徒刑 |
| 00:38:46,140 | 00:38:48,299 | 或七年以上有期徒刑 |
| 00:38:48,299 | 00:38:51,180 | 得併科新臺幣1億元以下罰金 |
| 00:38:51,180 | 00:38:53,259 | 致重傷者處三年以上 |
| 00:38:53,259 | 00:38:54,779 | 十年以下有期徒刑 |
| 00:38:54,779 | 00:38:57,819 | 得併科新臺幣8000萬元以下罰金 |
| 00:38:58,210 | 00:38:59,090 | 於同 |
| 00:39:00,540 | 00:39:03,100 | 臺灣民眾黨團提案第32條 |
| 00:39:03,930 | 00:39:05,290 | 第33條 |
| 00:39:05,770 | 00:39:06,730 | 除第 |
| 00:39:08,410 | 00:39:10,250 | 除第二項 |
| 00:39:38,890 | 00:39:42,569 | 應由經營人使用人或所有人負擔 |
| 00:39:42,810 | 00:39:43,690 | 於同 |
| 00:39:44,550 | 00:39:47,350 | 民眾黨團提案第33條條文 |
| 00:39:49,120 | 00:39:50,640 | 農業發展條例 |
| 00:39:50,640 | 00:39:53,520 | 洪運祥委員等三人 |
| 00:39:53,520 | 00:39:58,800 | 針對農業發展條例第69條修正動議 |
| 00:39:58,800 | 00:40:01,840 | 除第三項修正為 |
| 00:40:01,840 | 00:40:04,400 | 違反第10條之一第二項規定 |
| 00:40:04,400 | 00:40:07,200 | 擅自於農業用地推支 |
| 00:40:08,410 | 00:40:12,810 | 填埋或回填沙石磚瓦 |
| 00:40:12,810 | 00:40:14,010 | 混泥土塊 |
| 00:40:14,549 | 00:40:16,709 | 營建剩餘土石方 |
| 00:40:16,709 | 00:40:21,430 | 廢棄物或其他不適合種植農作物資物質 |
| 00:40:21,430 | 00:40:26,310 | 或非天然原土或適合農作之有機質改 |
| 00:40:26,310 | 00:40:28,549 | 土糧土者 |
| 00:40:28,549 | 00:40:30,629 | 處新臺幣六十萬元以上 |
| 00:40:30,629 | 00:40:33,350 | 三百萬元以下罰原 |
| 00:40:33,350 | 00:40:35,669 | 沒入其施工器具 |
| 00:40:35,669 | 00:40:39,350 | 並應限其令其清除改正 |
| 00:40:39,350 | 00:40:41,109 | 並恢復原狀 |
| 00:40:41,109 | 00:40:43,189 | 藉其為改正完成者 |
| 00:40:43,190 | 00:40:44,790 | 因暗次連續處罰 |
| 00:40:44,790 | 00:40:46,550 | 至其恢復原狀為止 |
| 00:40:46,550 | 00:40:48,950 | 並由直轄縣市主管機關 |
| 00:40:48,950 | 00:40:50,870 | 代為恢復原狀 |
| 00:40:50,870 | 00:40:52,870 | 其費用由行為人負擔 |
| 00:40:55,550 | 00:40:57,070 | 何育祥本人提案 |
| 00:40:57,070 | 00:41:01,390 | 三波土地利用條例第34條第35條 |
| 00:41:01,390 | 00:41:02,590 | 條文修正動議 |
| 00:41:04,200 | 00:41:07,240 | 第34條違反第10條規定者 |
| 00:41:07,240 | 00:41:08,040 | 處新 |
| 00:41:08,040 | 00:41:09,399 | 處六個月以上 |
| 00:41:09,399 | 00:41:10,759 | 五年以下有期徒刑 |
| 00:41:10,759 | 00:41:13,080 | 得併科新臺幣兩百萬元以上 |
| 00:41:13,080 | 00:41:14,839 | 兩千五百萬元以下罰金 |
| 00:41:15,690 | 00:41:16,730 | 前項情形 |
| 00:41:16,730 | 00:41:18,330 | 致釀成災害者 |
| 00:41:18,330 | 00:41:19,290 | 處一年以上 |
| 00:41:19,290 | 00:41:21,050 | 七年以下有期徒刑 |
| 00:41:21,050 | 00:41:24,010 | 得併科新臺幣六千萬元以上罰金 |
| 00:41:24,010 | 00:41:26,090 | 因而致人於死者 |
| 00:41:26,090 | 00:41:27,850 | 處無期徒刑 |
| 00:41:27,850 | 00:41:29,690 | 或七年以上有期徒刑 |
| 00:41:29,690 | 00:41:32,170 | 得併科新臺幣一億元以下罰金 |
| 00:41:32,170 | 00:41:33,050 | 致重傷者 |
| 00:41:33,050 | 00:41:34,330 | 處三年以上 |
| 00:41:34,330 | 00:41:35,770 | 十年以下有期徒刑 |
| 00:41:35,770 | 00:41:38,570 | 得併科新臺幣八千萬元以下罰金 |
| 00:41:38,570 | 00:41:39,610 | 因過失 |
| 00:41:39,610 | 00:41:41,370 | 犯第一項之罪 |
| 00:41:41,370 | 00:41:42,970 | 致釀成災害者 |
| 00:41:42,970 | 00:41:44,490 | 處一年以下有期徒刑 |
| 00:41:44,490 | 00:41:47,049 | 得併科新臺幣一百萬元以下罰金 |
| 00:41:47,049 | 00:41:50,009 | 第一項未遂犯罰資 |
| 00:41:50,780 | 00:41:51,580 | 本條 |
| 00:41:51,580 | 00:41:53,660 | 犯本條之罪者 |
| 00:41:53,660 | 00:41:57,100 | 其肯職務工作物施工材 |
| 00:41:57,100 | 00:41:59,420 | 材料及所使用之機具 |
| 00:41:59,420 | 00:42:02,620 | 不問屬於犯罪行為人與否 |
| 00:42:02,620 | 00:42:03,340 | 沒收之 |
| 00:42:03,910 | 00:42:05,670 | 第35條 |
| 00:42:06,740 | 00:42:08,339 | 除第二項 |
| 00:42:09,340 | 00:42:11,420 | 前項各款情形之一 |
| 00:42:11,420 | 00:42:13,500 | 兼限其改正而不改正 |
| 00:42:13,500 | 00:42:16,060 | 或未依改正事項改正者 |
| 00:42:16,060 | 00:42:17,740 | 得按次分別處罰 |
| 00:42:17,740 | 00:42:19,340 | 至改正為止 |
| 00:42:19,340 | 00:42:21,500 | 並得令其提供 |
| 00:42:21,500 | 00:42:25,740 | 並沒入其設施及所使用之機具 |
| 00:42:25,740 | 00:42:26,940 | 並強制拆除 |
| 00:42:26,940 | 00:42:29,180 | 並清除其工作物所需費用 |
| 00:42:29,180 | 00:42:30,860 | 除為經同意 |
| 00:42:30,860 | 00:42:31,980 | 擅自開發 |
| 00:42:31,980 | 00:42:33,420 | 經營使用者 |
| 00:42:33,420 | 00:42:35,420 | 由行為人負擔外 |
| 00:42:35,420 | 00:42:37,420 | 應由經營人使用人 |
| 00:42:37,500 | 00:42:40,300 | 或所有人負擔之 |
| 00:42:40,300 | 00:42:42,700 | 於同臺灣民眾黨團提案 |
| 00:42:43,410 | 00:42:44,290 | 宣讀完畢 |
| 00:42:47,009 | 00:42:49,009 | 我們現在協商討論 |
| 00:42:49,009 | 00:42:51,890 | 事項與有關農業發展條例部分 |
| 00:42:51,890 | 00:42:54,370 | 條文相關修正草案 |
| 00:42:54,370 | 00:42:56,689 | 共有八個提案的版本 |
| 00:43:00,980 | 00:43:03,060 | 與本次會一併審查 |
| 00:43:03,710 | 00:43:06,190 | 我們先從第二條開始協商 |
| 00:43:06,190 | 00:43:08,190 | 先請農業部說明 |
| 00:43:17,020 | 00:43:17,740 | 主席各位委員 |
| 00:43:17,740 | 00:43:18,940 | 第二條的部分 |
| 00:43:18,940 | 00:43:21,340 | 是將原來的農業委員 |
| 00:43:21,340 | 00:43:22,380 | 會改成農業部 |
| 00:43:22,380 | 00:43:24,380 | 我們同意委員的版本 |
| 00:43:26,800 | 00:43:27,920 | 我們審查結果 |
| 00:43:29,060 | 00:43:29,620 | 同意 |
| 00:43:30,960 | 00:43:32,080 | 交案通過 |
| 00:43:33,730 | 00:43:35,810 | 接下來我們進行第三條 |
| 00:43:37,420 | 00:43:39,420 | 第三條的部分 |
| 00:43:39,420 | 00:43:41,420 | 是針對有關於 |
| 00:43:41,420 | 00:43:42,620 | 委員所提到的 |
| 00:43:42,620 | 00:43:44,620 | 天然災害的一個 |
| 00:43:44,620 | 00:43:46,620 | 在農業發展條例的定義 |
| 00:43:46,620 | 00:43:48,620 | 農業部的立場是 |
| 00:43:48,620 | 00:43:50,620 | 因為天然災害的種類在 |
| 00:43:50,620 | 00:43:52,620 | 災防 |
| 00:43:51,620 | 00:43:54,420 | 災害防救法已經有明確的一個規定 |
| 00:43:54,420 | 00:43:56,420 | 並沒有必要重複的規定 |
| 00:43:56,420 | 00:43:58,420 | 而且在重複的規定的時候 |
| 00:43:58,420 | 00:44:00,420 | 在司法性會有一些問題 |
| 00:44:00,420 | 00:44:02,420 | 第二個部分就是委員所關切的 |
| 00:44:02,420 | 00:44:04,420 | 後續的相併從害的一個 |
| 00:44:06,630 | 00:44:07,630 | 影響的時候 |
| 00:44:07,630 | 00:44:10,630 | 那事實上在天然災害救助辦法裡面 |
| 00:44:10,630 | 00:44:12,630 | 如果說病狀害是屬於 |
| 00:44:12,630 | 00:44:14,630 | 因為天后異常引起 |
| 00:44:14,630 | 00:44:16,630 | 全面性普遍性跟一致性的 |
| 00:44:16,630 | 00:44:17,830 | 損失的時候 |
| 00:44:17,830 | 00:44:19,830 | 那我們可以在天然災害裡面 |
| 00:44:19,830 | 00:44:22,630 | 用專案認定的方式來處理 |
| 00:44:22,630 | 00:44:24,630 | 所以也建議不予修正 |
| 00:44:24,630 | 00:44:26,630 | 那至於說野生動物 |
| 00:44:26,630 | 00:44:28,630 | 危害的種類 |
| 00:44:28,630 | 00:44:30,630 | 也把它納入定義的部分 |
| 00:44:33,580 | 00:44:35,580 | 上次我在委員會也報告 |
| 00:44:35,580 | 00:44:37,580 | 針對動物的這些 |
| 00:44:37,580 | 00:44:39,580 | 這些危害的部分 |
| 00:44:39,580 | 00:44:41,580 | 我們已經進行好 |
| 00:44:41,580 | 00:44:43,580 | 相關的可能的一些規劃 |
| 00:44:43,580 | 00:44:45,580 | 那我在這邊跟委員報告 |
| 00:44:45,580 | 00:44:47,580 | 就是我們立法完了以後 |
| 00:44:47,580 | 00:44:49,580 | 一定要可執行 |
| 00:44:49,580 | 00:44:51,580 | 那現在的侯害 |
| 00:44:51,580 | 00:44:53,580 | 最主要大家所關注的侯害的部分 |
| 00:44:53,580 | 00:44:55,580 | 那這兩個月來 |
| 00:44:55,580 | 00:44:57,580 | 我們還在找一個新的 |
| 00:44:57,580 | 00:44:59,580 | 有沒有更好的方法 |
| 00:44:59,580 | 00:45:01,580 | 因為當你沒有辦法去計算 |
| 00:45:01,580 | 00:45:03,580 | 那如果說有些損失的時候 |
| 00:45:03,580 | 00:45:05,580 | 還有它的一致性跟普遍性的時候 |
| 00:45:05,580 | 00:45:07,580 | 那很難 |
| 00:45:07,580 | 00:45:09,580 | 去因為法的 |
| 00:45:09,580 | 00:45:11,580 | 要求而去做一個落實 |
| 00:45:11,580 | 00:45:13,580 | 那這個部分 |
| 00:45:13,580 | 00:45:15,580 | 我們是建議說先不要 |
| 00:45:15,580 | 00:45:17,580 | 修正 |
| 00:45:17,580 | 00:45:19,580 | 因為相關的野生動物 |
| 00:45:19,580 | 00:45:21,580 | 在清洗這個農田的時候 |
| 00:45:21,580 | 00:45:23,580 | 它的樣態非常多 |
| 00:45:23,580 | 00:45:25,580 | 那它的樣態也必定是單一因子 |
| 00:45:25,580 | 00:45:27,580 | 那等到我們真正的 |
| 00:45:27,580 | 00:45:29,580 | 跟外界 |
| 00:45:29,580 | 00:45:31,580 | 跟農民討論完 |
| 00:45:31,580 | 00:45:33,580 | 如果有適當的一個機會 |
| 00:45:33,580 | 00:45:35,580 | 我想我們也會用天然災害救助辦法裡面的 |
| 00:45:35,580 | 00:45:37,580 | 相關的一個規定 |
| 00:45:37,580 | 00:45:39,580 | 來做辦理 |
| 00:45:39,580 | 00:45:41,580 | 這是第三條的一個回應 |
| 00:45:45,190 | 00:45:47,190 | 第三條我們看到的 |
| 00:45:47,190 | 00:45:49,190 | 跟原條文差別是在 |
| 00:45:49,190 | 00:45:51,190 | 第十九款 |
| 00:45:51,570 | 00:45:53,570 | 是不是 |
| 00:45:53,570 | 00:45:55,570 | 第十九款只有講到 |
| 00:45:55,330 | 00:45:57,330 | 你剛剛有回應的部分好像有超出我們這個修正範圍 |
| 00:45:59,480 | 00:46:01,480 | 這裡面沒講到受害啊 |
| 00:46:01,510 | 00:46:03,510 | 這裡講的是 |
| 00:46:03,510 | 00:46:05,510 | 他們有的在第六十條也有提到 |
| 00:46:05,510 | 00:46:07,510 | 那是後面的事情啦 |
| 00:46:07,510 | 00:46:09,510 | 那你就是要講第六十條嘛 |
| 00:46:09,510 | 00:46:11,510 | 那你就是一併回應就對了 |
| 00:46:11,510 | 00:46:13,510 | 所以你是回應第六十條我們李委員的部分啦 |
| 00:46:13,510 | 00:46:15,510 | 那在這裡 |
| 00:46:15,510 | 00:46:17,510 | 不是吧 |
| 00:46:17,510 | 00:46:19,510 | 所以他回應到後面我們就 |
| 00:46:19,510 | 00:46:21,510 | 不是不是 |
| 00:46:21,510 | 00:46:23,510 | 有其他的委員 |
| 00:46:23,510 | 00:46:25,510 | 你到這一條再來說就好了好不好 |
| 00:46:26,260 | 00:46:28,260 | 因為他只是寫法上的問題而已 |
| 00:46:28,260 | 00:46:30,260 | 因為目前 |
| 00:46:30,260 | 00:46:32,260 | 定義寫在第三條啦 |
| 00:46:32,260 | 00:46:34,260 | 但是有的委員是在第六十條的時候 |
| 00:46:34,260 | 00:46:36,260 | 把這個部分放進去 |
| 00:46:36,260 | 00:46:38,260 | 我了解啦 |
| 00:46:38,260 | 00:46:40,260 | 但是你回應的時候要說明標的 |
| 00:46:40,260 | 00:46:42,260 | 我們在看第三條的時候 |
| 00:46:42,260 | 00:46:44,260 | 是九款並沒有講到受害 |
| 00:46:44,260 | 00:46:46,260 | 那其實呢其他委員 |
| 00:46:46,260 | 00:46:48,260 | 很多委員的提案呢 |
| 00:46:48,260 | 00:46:50,260 | 我們都相對可以理解 |
| 00:46:50,260 | 00:46:52,260 | 那是不是這一條 |
| 00:46:52,260 | 00:46:54,260 | 九款呢 |
| 00:46:53,790 | 00:46:55,790 | 的確在天然災這邊 |
| 00:46:55,790 | 00:47:01,790 | 原來的颱風、焚風、龍捲風、豪雨、淫雨、冰暴、寒流、旱災或地震所造成的災害 |
| 00:47:01,790 | 00:47:03,790 | 這是天然災害救助辦法裡面有規定的 |
| 00:47:03,790 | 00:47:05,790 | 對其實就已經有規定 |
| 00:47:05,790 | 00:47:09,790 | 但是呢氣候異常導致的病蟲害之災害啊 |
| 00:47:09,790 | 00:47:11,790 | 我想確認一下喔 |
| 00:47:11,790 | 00:47:13,790 | 你們有沒有辦法去認定氣候異常跟病蟲害之間的關聯性 |
| 00:47:13,790 | 00:47:15,790 | 這個就是要看個案喔 |
| 00:47:15,790 | 00:47:17,790 | 因為 |
| 00:47:17,790 | 00:47:19,790 | 病蟲害如果是因為 |
| 00:47:19,790 | 00:47:21,790 | 天然就是天候的異常 |
| 00:47:21,790 | 00:47:23,790 | 導致病蟲害的發生的頻度 |
| 00:47:23,790 | 00:47:25,790 | 在瞬間的增加 |
| 00:47:25,790 | 00:47:27,790 | 那那個時候就可以被認定 |
| 00:47:27,790 | 00:47:29,790 | 是因為天然災害所影響的 |
| 00:47:29,790 | 00:47:31,790 | 那如果說是一般的 |
| 00:47:31,790 | 00:47:33,790 | 病蟲害的話 |
| 00:47:33,790 | 00:47:35,790 | 因為天氣我們遇到是每天都遇到 |
| 00:47:35,790 | 00:47:39,790 | 所以他必須要有一些普遍性跟一致性的部分 |
| 00:47:39,790 | 00:47:41,790 | 所以這個部分會變成 |
| 00:47:41,790 | 00:47:43,790 | 個案的認定 |
| 00:47:43,790 | 00:47:45,790 | 他不像颱風、豪雨這樣子 |
| 00:47:45,790 | 00:47:47,790 | 是一下子就知道是全面的或是區域性的 |
| 00:47:47,790 | 00:47:49,790 | 那你們舉個例子喔 |
| 00:47:49,790 | 00:47:51,790 | 我這邊先給你一個提示啦 |
| 00:47:51,790 | 00:47:53,790 | 其實沒有錯啦 |
| 00:47:53,790 | 00:47:55,790 | 在這個 |
| 00:47:55,530 | 00:47:57,530 | 如果是局部氣候的異常導致的 |
| 00:47:57,530 | 00:47:59,530 | 譬如說你雨水多了、雨水少了 |
| 00:47:59,530 | 00:48:01,530 | 有些病蟲他的生長 |
| 00:48:01,530 | 00:48:03,530 | 就有異常的改變 |
| 00:48:03,530 | 00:48:05,530 | 但是舉例 |
| 00:48:05,530 | 00:48:07,530 | 但是不是在台灣的天候異常 |
| 00:48:07,530 | 00:48:09,530 | 他所造成的這些病蟲害 |
| 00:48:09,530 | 00:48:11,530 | 譬如說 |
| 00:48:11,530 | 00:48:13,530 | 有一陣子呢在中國地區 |
| 00:48:13,530 | 00:48:15,530 | 他們的蝗蟲 |
| 00:48:15,530 | 00:48:17,530 | 大量的增生就到台灣來侵蝕 |
| 00:48:17,530 | 00:48:19,530 | 那這個時候 |
| 00:48:19,530 | 00:48:21,530 | 因為台灣並沒有氣候異常嘛 |
| 00:48:21,530 | 00:48:23,530 | 是對岸嘛 |
| 00:48:23,530 | 00:48:25,530 | 在這裡我們農業部怎麼去認定 |
| 00:48:25,530 | 00:48:27,530 | 因為這裡的意思是說 |
| 00:48:27,530 | 00:48:29,530 | 好像在這裡所指的天然災害 |
| 00:48:29,530 | 00:48:31,530 | 是指台灣地區 |
| 00:48:31,530 | 00:48:33,530 | 因台灣地理區域上的天然災害 |
| 00:48:33,530 | 00:48:35,530 | 導致的 |
| 00:48:35,530 | 00:48:37,530 | 氣候異常所導致的 |
| 00:48:37,530 | 00:48:39,530 | 病蟲害 |
| 00:48:39,530 | 00:48:41,530 | 那我們可以 |
| 00:48:41,530 | 00:48:43,530 | 那如果在其他地區的氣候異常 |
| 00:48:43,530 | 00:48:45,530 | 導致台灣蒙受到的病蟲害災害 |
| 00:48:45,530 | 00:48:47,530 | 農業部有辦法認定嗎 |
| 00:48:47,530 | 00:48:49,530 | 我想跟委員報告 |
| 00:48:49,530 | 00:48:51,530 | 你所舉的例子 |
| 00:48:51,530 | 00:48:53,530 | 就是類似秋行軍蟲 |
| 00:48:53,530 | 00:48:55,530 | 那我們現在的天然災害 |
| 00:48:55,530 | 00:48:57,530 | 的定義一定是針對 |
| 00:48:57,530 | 00:48:59,530 | 台灣遭受的天然災害 |
| 00:48:59,530 | 00:49:01,530 | 所造成的農業的影響 |
| 00:49:01,530 | 00:49:03,530 | 我們才會去處理 |
| 00:49:03,530 | 00:49:05,530 | 那如果說國外 |
| 00:49:05,530 | 00:49:07,530 | 造成的天然災害的 |
| 00:49:07,530 | 00:49:09,530 | 異常造成一些像 |
| 00:49:09,530 | 00:49:11,530 | 秋行軍蟲由境外 |
| 00:49:11,530 | 00:49:13,530 | 進來的這種入侵的 |
| 00:49:13,530 | 00:49:15,530 | 這些種我們都是用專案的方式 |
| 00:49:15,530 | 00:49:17,530 | 去做撲殺跟處理 |
| 00:49:17,530 | 00:49:19,530 | 跟救助 |
| 00:49:19,500 | 00:49:21,500 | 所以你的意思是說在目前我們 |
| 00:49:21,500 | 00:49:23,500 | 修訂的本法 |
| 00:49:23,500 | 00:49:25,500 | 就是我們農花條例當中 |
| 00:49:25,760 | 00:49:27,760 | 就算沒有訂出像秋行軍蟲 |
| 00:49:27,760 | 00:49:29,760 | 這樣的一個病蟲害 |
| 00:49:29,760 | 00:49:31,760 | 我們一樣農業部 |
| 00:49:31,760 | 00:49:33,760 | 可以在我們的農業 |
| 00:49:33,760 | 00:49:35,760 | 天然災害救助辦法當中 |
| 00:49:35,760 | 00:49:37,760 | 予以專案認定是不是這樣子 |
| 00:49:37,760 | 00:49:39,760 | 我們也不用天然不動用到天然災害救助辦法 |
| 00:49:39,760 | 00:49:41,760 | 我們是針對重大的 |
| 00:49:41,760 | 00:49:43,760 | 這些異病蟲害 |
| 00:49:43,760 | 00:49:45,760 | 從國外導入的時候 |
| 00:49:45,760 | 00:49:47,760 | 而且是不是人為導入的時候 |
| 00:49:47,760 | 00:49:49,760 | 那我們會 |
| 00:49:49,760 | 00:49:51,760 | 在行政院的同意之下 |
| 00:49:51,760 | 00:49:53,760 | 我們會開啟專案的一個救助 |
| 00:49:53,760 | 00:49:55,760 | 跟相當的移除 |
| 00:49:55,760 | 00:49:57,760 | 那秋行軍蟲就是一個例子 |
| 00:49:57,760 | 00:49:59,760 | 就是當初開始的時候我們在處理的 |
| 00:49:59,760 | 00:50:01,760 | 包括農藥的防治的話 |
| 00:50:01,760 | 00:50:03,760 | 都是由中央政府這邊 |
| 00:50:03,760 | 00:50:05,760 | 來提供經費給地方政府 |
| 00:50:05,760 | 00:50:07,760 | 發給農民的部分 |
| 00:50:07,410 | 00:50:09,410 | 好那主席跟委員也爭取一下 |
| 00:50:09,410 | 00:50:11,410 | 那我是覺得第十九款 |
| 00:50:11,410 | 00:50:13,410 | 既然委員提案了我們予以尊重 |
| 00:50:13,410 | 00:50:15,410 | 是不是那個豆號後面 |
| 00:50:15,410 | 00:50:17,410 | 或因氣候異常導致發生病蟲害之災害 |
| 00:50:17,410 | 00:50:19,410 | 那麼依主管部 |
| 00:50:19,410 | 00:50:21,410 | 部會的說明 |
| 00:50:21,410 | 00:50:23,410 | 是不是我們就保留到 |
| 00:50:23,410 | 00:50:25,410 | 那個豆點之前 |
| 00:50:25,410 | 00:50:27,410 | 因為這個跟天然災害救助辦法是一樣 |
| 00:50:27,410 | 00:50:29,410 | 既然委員有提案了 |
| 00:50:29,410 | 00:50:31,410 | 那雖然行政部門覺得 |
| 00:50:31,410 | 00:50:33,410 | 有重複規定 |
| 00:50:33,410 | 00:50:35,410 | 但是訂在我們的農法條例當中 |
| 00:50:35,410 | 00:50:37,410 | 天然災害重複的序名 |
| 00:50:37,410 | 00:50:39,410 | 除非農業部認為說 |
| 00:50:39,410 | 00:50:41,410 | 寫了之後掛一六萬不如不要寫 |
| 00:50:41,410 | 00:50:43,410 | 不然的話如果跟既有的 |
| 00:50:43,410 | 00:50:45,410 | 農業部天然災害救助辦法是一致的 |
| 00:50:45,410 | 00:50:47,410 | 那麼我們就應該尊重委員的提案 |
| 00:50:47,410 | 00:50:49,410 | 我跟委員先報告一下 |
| 00:50:49,410 | 00:50:51,410 | 因為天然災害用到這個字 |
| 00:50:51,410 | 00:50:53,410 | 我們在一般法的前面的 |
| 00:50:53,410 | 00:50:55,410 | 定義的話就是後面的條文 |
| 00:50:55,410 | 00:50:57,410 | 經常會用到 |
| 00:50:57,410 | 00:50:59,410 | 那天然災害這個定義只在第六十條 |
| 00:50:59,410 | 00:51:01,410 | 用到 |
| 00:51:00,720 | 00:51:02,720 | 這是第一點 |
| 00:51:02,720 | 00:51:04,720 | 第二點就是說天然災害因為剛才在災防法 |
| 00:51:04,720 | 00:51:06,720 | 災防就法已經有定了 |
| 00:51:06,780 | 00:51:08,780 | 你們這個不一樣 |
| 00:51:08,780 | 00:51:10,780 | 你去看一下 |
| 00:51:10,780 | 00:51:12,780 | 你們這個內容是天然災害救助辦法裡面的內容 |
| 00:51:12,780 | 00:51:14,780 | 不是災防法的內容 |
| 00:51:14,780 | 00:51:16,780 | 沒有 |
| 00:51:16,780 | 00:51:18,780 | 災防法的定義裡面就是風災水災 |
| 00:51:21,020 | 00:51:23,020 | 漢災、鄭災、寒海、土石流、大規模崩塌等天然災害 |
| 00:51:28,000 | 00:51:30,000 | 我念一下 |
| 00:51:30,000 | 00:51:32,000 | 你們目前農業部的天然災害救助辦法 |
| 00:51:32,000 | 00:51:34,000 | 是指颱風、焚風、龍捲風、 |
| 00:51:34,000 | 00:51:36,000 | 蠔雨、淫雨、冰雹、 |
| 00:51:36,000 | 00:51:38,000 | 寒流、旱災或地震 |
| 00:51:38,000 | 00:51:40,000 | 所造成的災害 |
| 00:51:40,000 | 00:51:42,000 | 其實這個條款是跟你們的救助辦法 |
| 00:51:42,000 | 00:51:44,000 | 抄出來的 |
| 00:51:44,000 | 00:51:46,000 | 不要說抄啦,就是引引出來的 |
| 00:51:46,000 | 00:51:48,000 | 你們不要再去自我否定你們的救助辦法 |
| 00:51:48,000 | 00:51:50,000 | 那如果說你 |
| 00:51:50,000 | 00:51:52,000 | 災害防救法的順序內容 |
| 00:51:52,000 | 00:51:54,000 | 不完全一致 |
| 00:51:54,000 | 00:51:56,000 | 所以你是說第四九款我們不要規定 |
| 00:51:56,000 | 00:51:58,000 | 我們直接在第二,第六十條的部分 |
| 00:51:58,000 | 00:52:00,000 | 就直接把它寫在那裡面 |
| 00:52:00,000 | 00:52:02,000 | 那本席可以接受 |
| 00:52:02,000 | 00:52:04,000 | 就是說你們認為 |
| 00:52:04,000 | 00:52:06,000 | 這個第十九款就直接放在第六十條的部分 |
| 00:52:06,000 | 00:52:08,000 | 那六十條的部分 |
| 00:52:08,000 | 00:52:10,000 | 我們就是以你們的天然災害救助辦法 |
| 00:52:10,000 | 00:52:12,000 | 那幾個款項 |
| 00:52:12,000 | 00:52:14,000 | 是不是這個意思 |
| 00:52:14,000 | 00:52:16,000 | 我再跟委員報告一下 |
| 00:52:16,000 | 00:52:18,000 | 我們把這個東西放在天然災害救助辦法 |
| 00:52:18,000 | 00:52:20,000 | 如果你看天然災害救助辦法的第四條裡面 |
| 00:52:20,000 | 00:52:22,000 | 還有加一個第二項 |
| 00:52:22,000 | 00:52:24,000 | 就是我們剛才講的您所念的 |
| 00:52:24,000 | 00:52:26,000 | 我們還有一個前項以外的天然災害發生 |
| 00:52:26,000 | 00:52:28,000 | 且有救助之必要時 |
| 00:52:28,000 | 00:52:30,000 | 得由中央助管機關專案認定 |
| 00:52:30,000 | 00:52:32,000 | 所以這個就是我們剛才講的 |
| 00:52:32,000 | 00:52:34,000 | 如果遇到病蟲害的時候 |
| 00:52:34,000 | 00:52:36,000 | 會放在那個辦法裡面去定盤 |
| 00:52:36,000 | 00:52:38,000 | 而有一個比較適度的彈性 |
| 00:52:43,420 | 00:52:45,420 | 好那我再確認一下 |
| 00:52:45,420 | 00:52:47,420 | 因為我看六十條主席 |
| 00:52:47,420 | 00:52:49,420 | 因為大家講來講去都會直接跟六十條掛鉤 |
| 00:52:49,420 | 00:52:51,420 | 那六十條的內容 |
| 00:52:51,420 | 00:52:55,420 | 其實委員就是要把天然災害救助辦法裡面的定義 |
| 00:52:55,420 | 00:52:57,420 | 放到第六十條 |
| 00:52:57,420 | 00:52:59,420 | 那這個除非我們是一併討論說 |
| 00:52:59,420 | 00:53:01,420 | 你們認為寫在母法裡面 |
| 00:53:01,420 | 00:53:03,420 | 反而侷限了未來天然災害救助辦法的修訂 |
| 00:53:03,420 | 00:53:05,420 | 那不然的話 |
| 00:53:05,420 | 00:53:07,420 | 目前那項第一項 |
| 00:53:08,710 | 00:53:10,710 | 委員都把它放進來了 |
| 00:53:10,710 | 00:53:12,710 | 但是第二項沒有放進來 |
| 00:53:12,710 | 00:53:14,710 | 那第二項沒有放進來反而造成了 |
| 00:53:14,710 | 00:53:16,710 | 未來天然災害救助辦法 |
| 00:53:16,710 | 00:53:18,710 | 它的執法的層次被提高到母法之後 |
| 00:53:18,710 | 00:53:20,710 | 母法寫死了 |
| 00:53:20,710 | 00:53:22,710 | 未來你們天然災害救助辦法 |
| 00:53:22,710 | 00:53:24,710 | 如果要擴充會受到影響 |
| 00:53:24,710 | 00:53:26,710 | 所以你們認為是不是保留在 |
| 00:53:26,710 | 00:53:28,710 | 天然災害救助辦法就可以了 |
| 00:53:28,710 | 00:53:30,710 | 是這個意思嗎 |
| 00:53:30,710 | 00:53:32,710 | 所以那是不是我建議主席我們這個第三條 |
| 00:53:32,710 | 00:53:34,710 | 的第十九款 |
| 00:53:34,710 | 00:53:36,710 | 跟第六十條很多委員的提案 |
| 00:53:36,710 | 00:53:38,710 | 是不是一併討論 |
| 00:53:38,710 | 00:53:40,710 | 到底大家認不認為 |
| 00:53:40,710 | 00:53:42,710 | 應該把天然災害救助辦法當中的第一項跟第二項 |
| 00:53:42,710 | 00:53:46,710 | 或者是放到第三條的第十九款 |
| 00:53:46,710 | 00:53:48,710 | 或者就是放在第六十條的完整內容 |
| 00:53:48,710 | 00:53:50,710 | 那不過我現在看起來 |
| 00:53:50,710 | 00:53:52,710 | 不管是目前委員提案的第三條第十九款 |
| 00:53:52,710 | 00:53:54,710 | 還是第六十條的第二項 |
| 00:53:54,710 | 00:53:56,710 | 其實並沒有完整的把天然災害救助辦法裡面的第一項第二項放進去 |
| 00:53:56,710 | 00:53:58,710 | 的確會有一點掛一漏萬之魚 |
| 00:53:58,710 | 00:54:00,710 | 是不是請問 |
| 00:54:00,710 | 00:54:02,710 | 那如果我們現在看起來 |
| 00:54:02,710 | 00:54:04,710 | 我們來討論看看第六十條跟第三條第十九款 |
| 00:54:04,710 | 00:54:06,710 | 一起 |
| 00:54:06,710 | 00:54:08,710 | 是不是請主席 |
| 00:54:08,710 | 00:54:10,710 | 我們來討論看看第六十條跟第三條第十九款 |
| 00:54:10,710 | 00:54:12,710 | 一起 |
| 00:54:13,750 | 00:54:15,750 | 我們先請 |
| 00:54:15,750 | 00:54:17,750 | 因為還有委員 |
| 00:54:17,750 | 00:54:19,750 | 所以政天才我們方委員在李玉琳委員 |
| 00:54:21,290 | 00:54:23,290 | 這個 |
| 00:54:23,540 | 00:54:25,540 | 邱振軍委員之所以會 |
| 00:54:26,810 | 00:54:28,810 | 希望把這個 |
| 00:54:28,900 | 00:54:30,900 | 農業天然災害救助辦法 |
| 00:54:32,870 | 00:54:34,870 | 原來所訂的第四條 |
| 00:54:35,970 | 00:54:37,970 | 再 |
| 00:54:37,090 | 00:54:39,090 | 認為需要提升到法律的位階 |
| 00:54:40,870 | 00:54:42,870 | 最主要 |
| 00:54:42,940 | 00:54:44,940 | 這個農業天然災害救助辦法 |
| 00:54:46,590 | 00:54:48,590 | 的一級 |
| 00:54:47,910 | 00:54:51,910 | 就是我們今天要審查的農業發展條例 |
| 00:54:52,510 | 00:54:54,510 | 所授權訂定的 |
| 00:54:54,600 | 00:54:56,600 | 那我們現在 |
| 00:54:56,310 | 00:54:58,310 | 立法委員或是民眾 |
| 00:54:58,960 | 00:55:00,960 | 或是地方政府機關 |
| 00:55:01,000 | 00:55:03,000 | 常常會建議你們 |
| 00:55:03,000 | 00:55:05,000 | 應該包含這個包含這個 |
| 00:55:05,470 | 00:55:07,470 | 但是你們就會限收在 |
| 00:55:08,170 | 00:55:10,170 | 你們的條文 |
| 00:55:10,110 | 00:55:12,110 | 第四條 |
| 00:55:11,950 | 00:55:13,950 | 第四條雖然有寫 |
| 00:55:13,960 | 00:55:15,960 | 啊 |
| 00:55:15,230 | 00:55:19,230 | 這個另外好其他的得由中央主管機關專案論定制 |
| 00:55:20,740 | 00:55:22,740 | 那現在我們現在是 |
| 00:55:23,190 | 00:55:25,190 | 修法 |
| 00:55:24,730 | 00:55:26,730 | 把它明確定在 |
| 00:55:26,730 | 00:55:28,730 | 認為需要增加的把它列在這邊 |
| 00:55:29,590 | 00:55:31,590 | 以這個救生軍委員的提案 |
| 00:55:31,590 | 00:55:33,590 | 就是因氣候異常 |
| 00:55:33,590 | 00:55:35,590 | 導致發生病毒害 |
| 00:55:37,320 | 00:55:39,320 | 自在害 |
| 00:55:38,870 | 00:55:40,870 | 如果認為這個還不夠 |
| 00:55:41,260 | 00:55:43,260 | 我們可以再增加 |
| 00:55:43,260 | 00:55:45,260 | 或者是在這裡 |
| 00:55:45,260 | 00:55:47,260 | 也定 |
| 00:55:46,870 | 00:55:48,870 | 也增訂 |
| 00:55:48,770 | 00:55:50,770 | 得由中央主管機關專案論定制 |
| 00:55:50,770 | 00:55:52,770 | 提升為法律的位階 |
| 00:55:54,760 | 00:55:56,760 | 因為我們每一次建議的時候 |
| 00:55:57,280 | 00:55:59,280 | 你們就不修了 |
| 00:55:58,850 | 00:56:00,850 | 啊不累啊 |
| 00:56:00,200 | 00:56:02,200 | 沒事都很困難啊 |
| 00:56:02,200 | 00:56:04,200 | 才會 |
| 00:56:03,420 | 00:56:05,420 | 把它列為 |
| 00:56:05,010 | 00:56:07,010 | 提升為法律的位階 |
| 00:56:07,760 | 00:56:09,760 | 那為什麼這個 |
| 00:56:10,100 | 00:56:12,100 | 要列在第三條 |
| 00:56:12,090 | 00:56:14,090 | 啊 |
| 00:56:13,340 | 00:56:15,340 | 就是因為這邊是在講這個 |
| 00:56:16,580 | 00:56:18,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:18,580 | 00:56:20,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:20,580 | 00:56:22,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:22,580 | 00:56:24,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:24,580 | 00:56:26,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:26,580 | 00:56:28,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:28,580 | 00:56:30,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:30,580 | 00:56:32,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:32,580 | 00:56:34,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:34,580 | 00:56:36,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:36,580 | 00:56:38,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:38,580 | 00:56:40,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:40,580 | 00:56:42,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:42,580 | 00:56:44,580 | 所以我們就不修了 |
| 00:56:17,980 | 00:56:19,980 | 啊 |
| 00:56:19,500 | 00:56:21,500 | 我的建議還是說這個 |
| 00:56:21,500 | 00:56:23,500 | 當然我們 |
| 00:56:23,500 | 00:56:25,500 | 這李議員委員 |
| 00:56:25,500 | 00:56:27,500 | 在這個第60條裡面 |
| 00:56:27,500 | 00:56:29,500 | 也有提到啦 |
| 00:56:29,500 | 00:56:31,500 | 那因為這個是在講 |
| 00:56:31,940 | 00:56:33,940 | 定義的嘛 |
| 00:56:33,940 | 00:56:35,940 | 就是講定義 |
| 00:56:35,940 | 00:56:37,940 | 所以就那個立法體力的話 |
| 00:56:37,940 | 00:56:39,940 | 就會放在這個 |
| 00:56:39,940 | 00:56:41,940 | 既然我們這個 |
| 00:56:41,940 | 00:56:43,940 | 這個農業發展條例 |
| 00:56:43,010 | 00:56:45,010 | 有這個 |
| 00:56:44,480 | 00:56:46,480 | 用此定義 |
| 00:56:46,480 | 00:56:48,480 | 就立法體力的話 |
| 00:56:48,480 | 00:56:50,480 | 就把它併在一起 |
| 00:56:51,950 | 00:56:53,950 | 這個我建議農業部 |
| 00:56:54,770 | 00:56:56,770 | 你們應該就 |
| 00:56:56,850 | 00:56:58,850 | 立法委員所提的提案 |
| 00:57:00,480 | 00:57:02,480 | 就這個第19 |
| 00:57:02,480 | 00:57:04,480 | 第19款而言 |
| 00:57:04,730 | 00:57:06,730 | 哪些還需要把它 |
| 00:57:07,630 | 00:57:09,630 | 定的會更明確會更好 |
| 00:57:10,740 | 00:57:12,740 | 而不是去否定說它放在這裡 |
| 00:57:12,740 | 00:57:14,740 | 因為 |
| 00:57:14,260 | 00:57:16,260 | 你本來就要定義嘛 |
| 00:57:16,120 | 00:57:18,120 | 你現在的定義本來是放在辦法 |
| 00:57:18,890 | 00:57:20,890 | 那現在立法委員希望把它提升為法律的位階 |
| 00:57:22,950 | 00:57:24,950 | 我不要去否定它 |
| 00:57:24,950 | 00:57:26,950 | 而是說這個條文 |
| 00:57:26,950 | 00:57:28,950 | 這樣的寫法還少了什麼 |
| 00:57:28,950 | 00:57:30,950 | 因為經過這麼多年 |
| 00:57:32,070 | 00:57:34,070 | 的一個實施 |
| 00:57:34,070 | 00:57:36,070 | 那怎麼樣能夠把它強化 |
| 00:57:36,890 | 00:57:38,890 | 能夠 |
| 00:57:39,860 | 00:57:41,860 | 透過認裝啊 |
| 00:57:41,860 | 00:57:43,860 | 認定的都把它寫進去不是以後更明確嗎 |
| 00:57:44,590 | 00:57:46,590 | 對不對 |
| 00:57:46,590 | 00:57:48,590 | 我的建議是這樣以上 |
| 00:57:48,600 | 00:57:50,600 | 謝謝 |
| 00:57:50,310 | 00:57:52,310 | 主席喔 |
| 00:57:52,310 | 00:57:54,310 | 我們今天針對產發條例的修法 |
| 00:57:54,310 | 00:57:56,310 | 我們都提了 |
| 00:57:56,310 | 00:57:58,310 | 很多次了 |
| 00:57:58,310 | 00:58:00,310 | 你們也質詢過了 |
| 00:58:00,310 | 00:58:02,310 | 然後我們條文也宣讀過了 |
| 00:58:02,310 | 00:58:04,310 | 但是我們就是要等行政院的版本進來 |
| 00:58:04,310 | 00:58:06,310 | 你們都一直不進來 |
| 00:58:06,310 | 00:58:08,310 | 我們大家來共同討論 |
| 00:58:08,310 | 00:58:10,310 | 所以今天我們主席特別排這個案子的話 |
| 00:58:10,310 | 00:58:12,310 | 我們也謝謝部長李青志到 |
| 00:58:12,310 | 00:58:14,310 | 來討論這個案子 |
| 00:58:14,310 | 00:58:16,310 | 那剛剛這個第三條 |
| 00:58:16,310 | 00:58:18,310 | 我們中委員有說 |
| 00:58:18,310 | 00:58:20,310 | 我們第60條是一樣的 |
| 00:58:20,310 | 00:58:22,310 | 那我們為什麼要在這個 |
| 00:58:22,310 | 00:58:24,310 | 母法裡面來提這個 |
| 00:58:24,310 | 00:58:26,310 | 最重要是我們產發條例裡面 |
| 00:58:26,310 | 00:58:28,310 | 並沒有明確的 |
| 00:58:28,310 | 00:58:30,310 | 定義說我們天然災害的種類 |
| 00:58:30,310 | 00:58:32,310 | 種類沒有定義出來 |
| 00:58:32,310 | 00:58:34,310 | 雖然剛剛念出來的 |
| 00:58:34,310 | 00:58:36,310 | 什麼天災風災 |
| 00:58:36,310 | 00:58:38,310 | 冰雹還是說我們地震 |
| 00:58:38,310 | 00:58:40,310 | 等等這些並沒有說 |
| 00:58:40,310 | 00:58:42,310 | 我們農作物的這個受損的情形 |
| 00:58:42,310 | 00:58:44,310 | 還有其他的因素 |
| 00:58:44,310 | 00:58:46,310 | 那部長你說把這其他 |
| 00:58:46,310 | 00:58:48,310 | 因素給你們有專案 |
| 00:58:48,310 | 00:58:50,310 | 為什麼設專案 |
| 00:58:50,150 | 00:58:52,150 | 我們需要的就是給你們有法源 |
| 00:58:52,150 | 00:58:54,150 | 要不然的話我們母法 |
| 00:58:54,150 | 00:58:56,150 | 有你執法裡面沒有明確的 |
| 00:58:56,150 | 00:58:58,150 | 把這種類項目定出來的話 |
| 00:58:58,150 | 00:59:00,150 | 在執行的時候 |
| 00:59:00,150 | 00:59:02,150 | 會有摯愛男性或卡卡的地方 |
| 00:59:02,150 | 00:59:04,150 | 所以我們才說 |
| 00:59:04,150 | 00:59:06,150 | 希望把他把這天然災害的種類 |
| 00:59:06,150 | 00:59:08,150 | 明確出來 |
| 00:59:08,150 | 00:59:10,150 | 包括我們這天然災害裡面 |
| 00:59:10,150 | 00:59:12,150 | 不只是氣候的問題啊 |
| 00:59:12,150 | 00:59:14,150 | 還有野生的保護動物 |
| 00:59:14,150 | 00:59:16,150 | 這也會造成啊 |
| 00:59:16,150 | 00:59:18,150 | 剛剛部長也有講啊可能是猴子的問題 |
| 00:59:18,150 | 00:59:20,150 | 還有綠西瓜的問題 |
| 00:59:20,150 | 00:59:22,150 | 還有紅火蟻的問題 |
| 00:59:22,150 | 00:59:24,150 | 很多種我們就把明確定出來 |
| 00:59:24,150 | 00:59:26,150 | 讓你在執行執法的時候 |
| 00:59:26,150 | 00:59:28,150 | 有法源根據 |
| 00:59:28,150 | 00:59:30,150 | 這樣子的話我們的農民的災損啊 |
| 00:59:30,150 | 00:59:32,150 | 才能夠獲得保障 |
| 00:59:32,150 | 00:59:34,150 | 對我們農民才是公平的好不好 |
| 00:59:34,150 | 00:59:36,150 | 所以這個第十九條 |
| 00:59:36,150 | 00:59:38,150 | 不要不要把它廢掉 |
| 00:59:38,150 | 00:59:40,150 | 可以把它納入六十條裡面 |
| 00:59:40,150 | 00:59:42,150 | 我們把明確的定義確定種類 |
| 00:59:42,150 | 00:59:44,150 | 然後確定他的法源 |
| 00:59:44,150 | 00:59:46,150 | 讓我們執法更加公平公正 |
| 00:59:46,800 | 00:59:48,800 | 好謝謝謝謝委員的 |
| 00:59:49,390 | 00:59:51,390 | 可以回應了 |
| 00:59:51,180 | 00:59:53,180 | 謝謝委員的一些建議 |
| 00:59:53,180 | 00:59:55,180 | 那我想我分幾個層面 |
| 00:59:55,180 | 00:59:57,180 | 跟各位來說明 |
| 00:59:57,180 | 00:59:59,180 | 就是在法的設計上 |
| 00:59:59,180 | 01:00:01,180 | 有母法跟相關的辦法 |
| 01:00:01,180 | 01:00:03,180 | 那當然相關的辦法 |
| 01:00:03,180 | 01:00:05,180 | 最主要是作用法在執行面的部分 |
| 01:00:05,180 | 01:00:07,180 | 那我想各位都知道 |
| 01:00:07,180 | 01:00:09,180 | 這幾年天然災害救助 |
| 01:00:09,180 | 01:00:11,180 | 農業部一定是盡全力 |
| 01:00:11,180 | 01:00:13,180 | 甚至於都是用主動公告的方式 |
| 01:00:13,180 | 01:00:15,180 | 來第一時間協助農民 |
| 01:00:15,180 | 01:00:17,180 | 但是我們如果把 |
| 01:00:17,180 | 01:00:19,180 | 很多辦法裡面的條文 |
| 01:00:19,180 | 01:00:21,180 | 要把它搬到母法的時候 |
| 01:00:21,180 | 01:00:23,180 | 那我們考慮農村條例 |
| 01:00:23,180 | 01:00:25,180 | 有非常非常多的條例 |
| 01:00:25,180 | 01:00:27,180 | 它有相關的辦法 |
| 01:00:27,180 | 01:00:29,180 | 那相關的辦法都全部 |
| 01:00:29,240 | 01:00:31,240 | 放在母法的時候 |
| 01:00:31,510 | 01:00:33,510 | 就不會去呈現出它的一個重要性 |
| 01:00:33,510 | 01:00:35,510 | 所以我們用辦法的方式 |
| 01:00:35,510 | 01:00:37,510 | 有它的彈性 |
| 01:00:37,510 | 01:00:39,510 | 那這個彈性本身 |
| 01:00:39,510 | 01:00:41,510 | 我剛才說到的就是說 |
| 01:00:41,510 | 01:00:43,510 | 我們有一個第二項其他的方式 |
| 01:00:43,510 | 01:00:45,510 | 那其他的部分它是 |
| 01:00:45,510 | 01:00:47,510 | 比較不容易是直接的 |
| 01:00:47,510 | 01:00:49,510 | 天然災害它是因為天然災害 |
| 01:00:49,510 | 01:00:51,510 | 而影響的像病蟲害等這個部分 |
| 01:00:51,510 | 01:00:53,510 | 那它都要 |
| 01:00:53,690 | 01:00:55,690 | 一些專案的認定 |
| 01:00:55,690 | 01:00:57,690 | 而不是說只要病蟲害 |
| 01:00:57,690 | 01:00:59,690 | 它不是天然災害一種 |
| 01:00:59,690 | 01:01:01,690 | 它是因為受天然災害影響 |
| 01:01:01,690 | 01:01:03,690 | 而造成它的族群 |
| 01:01:03,690 | 01:01:05,690 | 那那個族群的話不是第一時間就可以判斷 |
| 01:01:05,690 | 01:01:07,690 | 所以我們必須去了解以後 |
| 01:01:07,690 | 01:01:09,690 | 才去做判斷 |
| 01:01:09,690 | 01:01:11,690 | 那第二個部分是 |
| 01:01:11,690 | 01:01:13,690 | 在整個的一個法的設計裡面 |
| 01:01:13,690 | 01:01:15,690 | 我想後續的這些 |
| 01:01:15,690 | 01:01:17,690 | 作為包括 |
| 01:01:17,690 | 01:01:19,690 | 專案認定的部分或是在 |
| 01:01:19,690 | 01:01:21,690 | 辦法裡面做修訂的部分會比較好 |
| 01:01:21,690 | 01:01:23,690 | 那最後回應就是剛才講的就是 |
| 01:01:23,690 | 01:01:25,690 | 我們在定義裡面 |
| 01:01:25,690 | 01:01:27,690 | 去寫的時候 |
| 01:01:27,690 | 01:01:29,690 | 我們在一個法會有 |
| 01:01:29,690 | 01:01:31,690 | 名詞定義是因為後面的條文 |
| 01:01:31,690 | 01:01:33,690 | 會經常用到 |
| 01:01:33,690 | 01:01:35,690 | 我們才會去定義 |
| 01:01:35,690 | 01:01:37,690 | 但是天然災害這幾個定義的話 |
| 01:01:37,690 | 01:01:39,690 | 只在60條出現 |
| 01:01:39,690 | 01:01:41,690 | 所以在60條出現的天然災害裡面 |
| 01:01:41,690 | 01:01:43,690 | 我們就回到我們的辦法去設計 |
| 01:01:43,690 | 01:01:45,690 | 所以這個法當初的設計 |
| 01:01:45,690 | 01:01:47,690 | 是這樣的方式 |
| 01:01:47,690 | 01:01:49,690 | 而且到目前為止也沒有特別自愛難行的部分 |
| 01:01:51,050 | 01:01:53,050 | 必須要去做這樣的一個處理 |
| 01:01:55,330 | 01:01:57,330 | 主席我先建議 |
| 01:01:57,330 | 01:01:59,330 | 因為我們剛剛這樣討論的話 |
| 01:01:59,330 | 01:02:01,330 | 就是第三條我們先把 |
| 01:02:01,330 | 01:02:03,330 | 邱政軍委員19條 |
| 01:02:03,330 | 01:02:05,330 | 放在第60條裡面 |
| 01:02:05,330 | 01:02:07,330 | 一併來解釋再討論 |
| 01:02:07,330 | 01:02:09,330 | 所以我們先把第三條過了 |
| 01:02:09,330 | 01:02:11,330 | 再往下走吧 |
| 01:02:11,480 | 01:02:13,480 | 第三條就沒有了 |
| 01:02:13,480 | 01:02:15,480 | 把19條放到 |
| 01:02:15,480 | 01:02:17,480 | 第19款放到 |
| 01:02:17,480 | 01:02:19,480 | 60條 |
| 01:02:19,480 | 01:02:21,480 | 我現在先這樣子 |
| 01:02:21,480 | 01:02:23,480 | 因為結構很清楚 |
| 01:02:23,480 | 01:02:25,480 | 就是說你天然災害是不是要定在第三條 |
| 01:02:25,480 | 01:02:27,480 | 的名詞的定義就這樣子 |
| 01:02:27,480 | 01:02:29,480 | 還是要放在第60條 |
| 01:02:29,480 | 01:02:31,480 | 我們先徵求在場委員 |
| 01:02:31,480 | 01:02:33,480 | 我們先確定他天然災害 |
| 01:02:33,480 | 01:02:35,480 | 的程序是要放在第 |
| 01:02:36,630 | 01:02:38,630 | 你要放在第19款還是要放在 |
| 01:02:38,630 | 01:02:40,630 | 不要放在19款 |
| 01:02:40,630 | 01:02:42,630 | 不要放在60條 |
| 01:02:45,380 | 01:02:47,380 | 這樣啊你如果 |
| 01:02:47,380 | 01:02:49,380 | 第三條第19款裡面 |
| 01:02:50,060 | 01:02:52,060 | 我覺得要加三個 |
| 01:02:52,990 | 01:02:54,990 | 也是中物保育法 |
| 01:02:54,990 | 01:02:56,990 | 第20條 |
| 01:02:56,990 | 01:02:58,990 | 你現在把他放在前面 |
| 01:02:58,990 | 01:03:00,990 | 農業部不承認啦 |
| 01:03:00,990 | 01:03:02,990 | 你不要跟我講辦法 |
| 01:03:02,990 | 01:03:04,990 | 我哪一次艦隊法的部分有所謂的不承認 |
| 01:03:04,990 | 01:03:06,990 | 沒有絕對沒有 |
| 01:03:06,990 | 01:03:08,990 | 我把他放進去你們才會承認啦 |
| 01:03:08,990 | 01:03:10,990 | 我每次拜託你說 |
| 01:03:10,990 | 01:03:12,990 | 河外從南部到北部了 |
| 01:03:12,990 | 01:03:14,990 | 國家都一直在反應 |
| 01:03:14,990 | 01:03:16,990 | 你每次講到天然災害 |
| 01:03:16,990 | 01:03:18,990 | 河外的話 |
| 01:03:18,990 | 01:03:20,990 | 你跟委員報告我上次已經承諾 |
| 01:03:20,990 | 01:03:22,990 | 河外的部分我們一定會來 |
| 01:03:22,990 | 01:03:24,990 | 想辦法去認定 |
| 01:03:24,990 | 01:03:26,990 | 把他抓在裡面嘛 |
| 01:03:30,880 | 01:03:32,880 | 不過這樣子好不好 |
| 01:03:32,880 | 01:03:34,880 | 我們在場委員先決定就是說 |
| 01:03:34,880 | 01:03:36,880 | 我們如果在第三條第19款 |
| 01:03:36,880 | 01:03:38,880 | 不加就是把他放到第60條 |
| 01:03:38,880 | 01:03:40,880 | 來處理 |
| 01:03:40,880 | 01:03:42,880 | 這樣在場委員有沒有意見 |
| 01:03:42,990 | 01:03:44,990 | 我就要問政天才委員 |
| 01:03:46,910 | 01:03:48,910 | 這樣好 |
| 01:03:51,800 | 01:03:53,800 | 我還是要跟部長 |
| 01:03:53,800 | 01:03:55,800 | 農業部這邊來做說明 |
| 01:03:57,290 | 01:03:59,290 | 因為 |
| 01:03:58,500 | 01:04:00,500 | 災害防救法 |
| 01:04:00,500 | 01:04:02,500 | 他是法律 |
| 01:04:01,590 | 01:04:03,590 | 他裡面定的災害 |
| 01:04:04,360 | 01:04:06,360 | 天然災害 |
| 01:04:06,360 | 01:04:08,360 | 就累積了 |
| 01:04:08,360 | 01:04:10,360 | 就沒有包含很多跟農業 |
| 01:04:10,360 | 01:04:12,360 | 有關的部分 |
| 01:04:11,580 | 01:04:13,580 | 就會怪異漏網 |
| 01:04:13,580 | 01:04:15,580 | 所以我們現在把他提升為法律的位階 |
| 01:04:15,580 | 01:04:17,580 | 那到底要放在第三條 |
| 01:04:19,280 | 01:04:21,280 | 還是放在第60條 |
| 01:04:21,280 | 01:04:23,280 | 大家可以討論 |
| 01:04:23,280 | 01:04:27,280 | 反正我認為都應該提升為法律的位階 |
| 01:04:27,280 | 01:04:29,280 | 但是這個條文字 |
| 01:04:29,280 | 01:04:31,280 | 文字還是要增加 |
| 01:04:31,280 | 01:04:33,280 | 所以農業部這邊也幫忙 |
| 01:04:33,280 | 01:04:35,280 | 這個 |
| 01:04:35,280 | 01:04:37,280 | 想一下這個文字 |
| 01:04:37,280 | 01:04:39,280 | 還是要把這個 |
| 01:04:39,280 | 01:04:41,280 | 因為我們怪異漏網 |
| 01:04:41,280 | 01:04:45,280 | 所以還是要有這個授權給中央主管機關來另外認定 |
| 01:04:45,280 | 01:04:47,280 | 增加其他的認定的部分 |
| 01:04:47,280 | 01:04:49,280 | 好以上 |
| 01:04:49,280 | 01:04:51,280 | 我現在結論是這樣子好不好 |
| 01:04:51,280 | 01:04:53,280 | 我想這場文大概就是說 |
| 01:04:53,280 | 01:04:55,280 | 我們在第三條第19款 |
| 01:04:55,280 | 01:04:57,280 | 所列這些東西 |
| 01:04:57,280 | 01:04:59,280 | 我們全部都把它放到第60條 |
| 01:04:59,280 | 01:05:01,280 | 那在第60條 |
| 01:05:01,280 | 01:05:03,280 | 等一下我們討論的時候 |
| 01:05:03,280 | 01:05:05,280 | 我們也許在討論完 |
| 01:05:05,280 | 01:05:07,280 | 也許也可以先暫時休息 |
| 01:05:07,280 | 01:05:09,280 | 把那個修正的文字 |
| 01:05:09,280 | 01:05:11,280 | 弄出來 |
| 01:05:11,390 | 01:05:13,390 | 現在就可以寫了 |
| 01:05:14,000 | 01:05:16,000 | 那這樣子好不好 |
| 01:05:16,000 | 01:05:18,000 | 我們第三條我們就是 |
| 01:05:18,000 | 01:05:20,000 | 就維持這個 |
| 01:05:20,000 | 01:05:22,000 | 現行的條文 |
| 01:05:22,000 | 01:05:24,000 | 等一下我們就到第49款的項目 |
| 01:05:24,000 | 01:05:26,000 | 移到第60條 |
| 01:05:29,610 | 01:05:33,610 | 好接下來我們進行這個第10條之一 |
| 01:05:35,420 | 01:05:37,420 | 第10條之一也是一樣 |
| 01:05:37,420 | 01:05:39,420 | 就是在有關於農地填土的規範 |
| 01:05:39,420 | 01:05:41,420 | 已經在農法條例子 |
| 01:05:41,420 | 01:05:43,420 | 實施細則裡面的第二條第一項 |
| 01:05:43,420 | 01:05:45,420 | 已經規定了 |
| 01:05:45,420 | 01:05:47,420 | 那這邊我要跟委員報告就是 |
| 01:05:47,420 | 01:05:49,420 | 從法的執行來 |
| 01:05:49,420 | 01:05:51,420 | 不管是母法或執法 |
| 01:05:51,420 | 01:05:53,420 | 它的執行結果的效率是一樣的 |
| 01:05:53,420 | 01:05:55,420 | 所以我們也覺得說 |
| 01:05:55,420 | 01:05:57,420 | 在執法已經有明確的明定的時候 |
| 01:05:57,420 | 01:05:59,420 | 我們就不用 |
| 01:05:59,420 | 01:06:01,420 | 再提升到母法的位階 |
| 01:06:01,420 | 01:06:03,420 | 這是農業部的立場 |
| 01:06:05,180 | 01:06:07,180 | 好那這個回應是一樣 |
| 01:06:07,180 | 01:06:09,180 | 因為我們是之前已經通過 |
| 01:06:09,180 | 01:06:11,180 | 獨裁法 |
| 01:06:11,180 | 01:06:13,180 | 獨裁法之後的清單會讀到這邊的話 |
| 01:06:13,180 | 01:06:15,180 | 這個是我們當時 |
| 01:06:15,180 | 01:06:17,180 | 提案的一個目的 |
| 01:06:17,180 | 01:06:19,180 | 那也是跟剛剛一樣 |
| 01:06:19,180 | 01:06:21,180 | 就是說我們把這個東西 |
| 01:06:21,180 | 01:06:23,180 | 放到法夾只是讓你有一個 |
| 01:06:23,180 | 01:06:25,180 | 更好的法人的依據 |
| 01:06:25,180 | 01:06:27,180 | 那基本上來講就是 |
| 01:06:27,180 | 01:06:29,180 | 理念上來講的話 |
| 01:06:29,180 | 01:06:31,180 | 我們覺得以這樣子的方式 |
| 01:06:31,180 | 01:06:33,180 | 來做這個控管 |
| 01:06:33,180 | 01:06:35,180 | 這個地方政府機關在執行這個 |
| 01:06:35,180 | 01:06:37,180 | 法則的判定的時候 |
| 01:06:37,180 | 01:06:39,180 | 會比較好一點 |
| 01:06:38,600 | 01:06:40,600 | 好 |
| 01:06:40,940 | 01:06:42,940 | 部長 |
| 01:06:42,170 | 01:06:44,170 | 請問那個養殖漁業 |
| 01:06:44,170 | 01:06:46,170 | 漁溫它算不算農業用地 |
| 01:06:47,240 | 01:06:49,240 | 算了嗎 |
| 01:06:49,240 | 01:06:51,240 | 算好了那我就大概就教一下大家 |
| 01:06:51,240 | 01:06:53,240 | 其實它這裡面我是認同第一項 |
| 01:06:53,240 | 01:06:55,240 | 農業用地應維持農業生產 |
| 01:06:55,240 | 01:06:57,240 | 功能與日然生態這是非常好的 |
| 01:06:57,240 | 01:06:59,240 | 但是 |
| 01:06:59,240 | 01:07:01,240 | 第二項的部分其實 |
| 01:07:01,240 | 01:07:03,240 | 這個版本的用意 |
| 01:07:03,240 | 01:07:07,240 | 它是針對營建剩餘土石方廢棄物 |
| 01:07:07,240 | 01:07:09,240 | 大概就是目前我們最痛恨的 |
| 01:07:09,240 | 01:07:11,240 | 就是這些廢土 |
| 01:07:11,450 | 01:07:13,450 | 那這些廢土啊兩個字 |
| 01:07:13,450 | 01:07:15,450 | 包含了哪些要怎麼去認定 |
| 01:07:15,450 | 01:07:17,450 | 其實要有一個明確的定義 |
| 01:07:17,450 | 01:07:19,450 | 那我是覺得 |
| 01:07:19,450 | 01:07:21,450 | 如果真的要把十條之一的精神放進去 |
| 01:07:21,450 | 01:07:23,450 | 就是要把這樣的 |
| 01:07:23,450 | 01:07:25,450 | 一個 |
| 01:07:24,730 | 01:07:26,730 | 原則的概念把它表達出來 |
| 01:07:26,730 | 01:07:28,730 | 但是戲幕的時候 |
| 01:07:28,730 | 01:07:30,730 | 在執行上 |
| 01:07:30,730 | 01:07:32,730 | 我們委員目前在母法上的版本 |
| 01:07:32,730 | 01:07:34,730 | 會有一些些現實上 |
| 01:07:34,730 | 01:07:36,730 | 不太一樣的地方比如說好了 |
| 01:07:36,730 | 01:07:38,730 | 因為它這裡面 |
| 01:07:38,730 | 01:07:40,730 | 它的貨制第二款 |
| 01:07:40,730 | 01:07:42,730 | 第二項的貨制或其他不適合 |
| 01:07:42,730 | 01:07:44,730 | 種植農作物 |
| 01:07:45,080 | 01:07:47,080 | 物質之堆置 |
| 01:07:47,080 | 01:07:49,080 | 這就想像的是 |
| 01:07:49,080 | 01:07:51,080 | 是種植農作物 |
| 01:07:51,080 | 01:07:53,080 | 但是餘溫 |
| 01:07:53,080 | 01:07:55,080 | 它那個土地不是要種植農作物的 |
| 01:07:55,080 | 01:07:57,080 | 所以適合在餘溫當中 |
| 01:07:57,080 | 01:07:59,080 | 他們那些 |
| 01:07:59,080 | 01:08:01,080 | 可能在餘溫跟餘溫之間 |
| 01:08:01,080 | 01:08:03,080 | 它需要有一些 |
| 01:08:03,080 | 01:08:05,080 | 人走的 |
| 01:08:04,520 | 01:08:06,520 | 那些通道 |
| 01:08:06,520 | 01:08:08,520 | 或者是說 |
| 01:08:08,520 | 01:08:10,520 | 小型車輛要去搬運 |
| 01:08:10,520 | 01:08:12,520 | 餘溫的這些路面 |
| 01:08:12,520 | 01:08:14,520 | 你說它用的這些田的 |
| 01:08:15,000 | 01:08:17,000 | 物質它可能就不是農作物 |
| 01:08:18,649 | 01:08:20,649 | 這是很明顯的 |
| 01:08:20,649 | 01:08:22,649 | 因為我們在養殖地區 |
| 01:08:22,649 | 01:08:24,649 | 很多餘溫的養殖業者 |
| 01:08:24,649 | 01:08:26,649 | 他們在餘溫跟餘溫之間 |
| 01:08:26,649 | 01:08:28,649 | 他們需要人員搬運工具 |
| 01:08:28,649 | 01:08:30,649 | 出入的時候 |
| 01:08:30,649 | 01:08:32,649 | 他需要去填出一條走道 |
| 01:08:32,590 | 01:08:34,590 | 那這個走道它不可能用優質的 |
| 01:08:34,590 | 01:08:36,590 | 種植農作物的 |
| 01:08:36,590 | 01:08:38,590 | 物質嘛 |
| 01:08:38,590 | 01:08:40,590 | 那這種情況之下 |
| 01:08:40,590 | 01:08:42,590 | 它既然是農業用地 |
| 01:08:42,590 | 01:08:44,590 | 它也維持農業生產的功能 |
| 01:08:44,590 | 01:08:46,590 | 它做餘溫使用 |
| 01:08:46,590 | 01:08:48,590 | 但是你限制它餘溫的這些 |
| 01:08:48,590 | 01:08:50,590 | 必要的設施 |
| 01:08:50,590 | 01:08:52,590 | 限制要在不能夠用那些 |
| 01:08:52,590 | 01:08:54,590 | 不適合種植農作物的物質 |
| 01:08:54,590 | 01:08:56,590 | 那這恐怕就會造成 |
| 01:08:56,590 | 01:08:58,590 | 餘溫在經營上他們的困難 |
| 01:08:58,590 | 01:09:00,590 | 它不可能把隔壁聯務員的優質土壤 |
| 01:09:00,590 | 01:09:02,590 | 餘溫啊 |
| 01:09:02,590 | 01:09:04,590 | 所以我是覺得這個部分主席也在觀察 |
| 01:09:04,590 | 01:09:06,590 | 在看 |
| 01:09:07,529 | 01:09:09,529 | 條文的用意是很好 |
| 01:09:09,529 | 01:09:11,529 | 但是他在表達的時候呢 |
| 01:09:11,529 | 01:09:13,529 | 他們有涵蓋到所有的農業生產樣態 |
| 01:09:13,529 | 01:09:15,529 | 那恐怕當我們 |
| 01:09:15,529 | 01:09:17,529 | 心中想像的是農作物 |
| 01:09:17,529 | 01:09:19,529 | 種植的農業用途 |
| 01:09:19,529 | 01:09:21,529 | 的時候你的 |
| 01:09:21,529 | 01:09:23,529 | 定義所造成的限制 |
| 01:09:23,529 | 01:09:25,529 | 就會造成其他 |
| 01:09:25,529 | 01:09:27,529 | 非農作物種植的 |
| 01:09:27,529 | 01:09:29,529 | 其他農業設施它在使用的時候的困難 |
| 01:09:29,529 | 01:09:31,529 | 所以我是覺得這一點呢 |
| 01:09:31,529 | 01:09:33,529 | 是不是讓農業部去想一下 |
| 01:09:33,529 | 01:09:35,529 | 怎麼樣保留這個條文 |
| 01:09:35,529 | 01:09:37,529 | 我們的精神 |
| 01:09:37,529 | 01:09:39,529 | 就是我們要宣示不允許 |
| 01:09:39,529 | 01:09:41,529 | 廢土進入到農業用地 |
| 01:09:41,529 | 01:09:43,529 | 但是又不至於限制了 |
| 01:09:43,529 | 01:09:45,529 | 那些在不同形態的 |
| 01:09:45,529 | 01:09:47,529 | 農業生產的使用時 |
| 01:09:47,529 | 01:09:49,529 | 他必須要做一些地形地貌 |
| 01:09:49,529 | 01:09:51,529 | 他可能要去做一些 |
| 01:09:51,529 | 01:09:53,529 | 設施的鋪設的時候 |
| 01:09:53,529 | 01:09:55,530 | 他可能沒有辦法一律採用 |
| 01:09:55,530 | 01:09:57,530 | 通通是用來種植農作物的優質土壤 |
| 01:09:57,530 | 01:09:59,530 | 去回填 |
| 01:09:59,530 | 01:10:01,530 | 這個是有困難的 |
| 01:10:01,870 | 01:10:03,870 | 所以我才說後面有一些認定的話就是 |
| 01:10:06,110 | 01:10:08,110 | 有機關會箱啊 |
| 01:10:08,660 | 01:10:10,660 | 你把那個 |
| 01:10:10,660 | 01:10:12,660 | 貨旗它不適合種植農作物的堆置 |
| 01:10:12,660 | 01:10:14,660 | 放在母髮裡面 |
| 01:10:15,980 | 01:10:17,980 | 我漁溫又不是要種植農作物的 |
| 01:10:17,980 | 01:10:19,980 | 你叫我漁溫裡面要做的布道 |
| 01:10:19,980 | 01:10:21,980 | 必須要用適合種植農作物的 |
| 01:10:21,980 | 01:10:23,980 | 這個母髮這樣定 |
| 01:10:23,980 | 01:10:25,980 | 植髮再怎麼寫寫不出來啦 |
| 01:10:25,980 | 01:10:27,980 | 我簡單的意思說這個條文 |
| 01:10:27,980 | 01:10:29,980 | 沒有完整的把 |
| 01:10:29,980 | 01:10:31,980 | 所有的農業生產的樣態都想進去啦 |
| 01:10:31,980 | 01:10:33,980 | 在漁溫的這個 |
| 01:10:33,980 | 01:10:35,980 | 農業生產的樣態當中 |
| 01:10:35,980 | 01:10:37,980 | 他的土地的使用性質 |
| 01:10:37,980 | 01:10:39,980 | 會受到這個限制啦 |
| 01:10:39,980 | 01:10:41,980 | 這已經有農民在反應了啦 |
| 01:10:44,300 | 01:10:46,300 | 還沒有寫這條就有反應了 |
| 01:10:47,960 | 01:10:49,960 | 我們這都有公道的耶 |
| 01:10:50,670 | 01:10:52,670 | 不是啦 |
| 01:10:52,670 | 01:10:54,670 | 我是不是可以跟委員報告一下 |
| 01:10:57,960 | 01:10:59,960 | 謝謝主席 |
| 01:10:59,960 | 01:11:01,960 | 來針對這一條民眾黨黨團的提案 |
| 01:11:01,960 | 01:11:03,960 | 把農業的用地上面 |
| 01:11:03,960 | 01:11:05,960 | 能夠覆蓋或不能覆蓋的土石 |
| 01:11:05,960 | 01:11:07,960 | 寫得這麼 |
| 01:11:08,460 | 01:11:10,460 | 啊 |
| 01:11:10,130 | 01:11:12,130 | 詳細或者是說這麼細索 |
| 01:11:12,130 | 01:11:14,130 | 我看到一個叫做 |
| 01:11:14,130 | 01:11:16,130 | 銀劍剩餘土石方 |
| 01:11:16,130 | 01:11:18,130 | 這個我們有沒有內政部的同仁 |
| 01:11:21,720 | 01:11:23,720 | 簡潤工程師 |
| 01:11:23,720 | 01:11:25,720 | 來是不是我請教一下 |
| 01:11:26,700 | 01:11:28,700 | 如果就銀劍屬 |
| 01:11:28,700 | 01:11:30,700 | AV |
| 01:11:29,540 | 01:11:31,540 | 這個你們銀劍工程的規定 |
| 01:11:32,980 | 01:11:34,980 | 欸 |
| 01:11:37,980 | 01:11:39,980 | 上發煙台啊 |
| 01:11:42,030 | 01:11:44,030 | 你們的銀劍剩餘土石方 |
| 01:11:44,030 | 01:11:46,030 | 應該是有分很多種類吧 |
| 01:11:46,030 | 01:11:48,030 | 比如說我現在一個新的基地開挖 |
| 01:11:48,030 | 01:11:50,030 | 新的基地開挖下去 |
| 01:11:50,030 | 01:11:52,030 | 挖起來的豪土 |
| 01:11:52,030 | 01:11:54,030 | 算不算銀劍剩餘土石方 |
| 01:11:55,240 | 01:11:57,240 | 那這個豪土能不能去做 |
| 01:11:57,240 | 01:11:59,240 | 農地的土質改良 |
| 01:12:01,230 | 01:12:03,230 | 你們的銀劍剩餘土石方 |
| 01:12:03,230 | 01:12:05,230 | 依照我的了解應該是有分很多的級別 |
| 01:12:05,230 | 01:12:07,230 | 很多的不同種類嘛 |
| 01:12:07,230 | 01:12:09,230 | 所以如果我們的文字直接這樣寫 |
| 01:12:09,230 | 01:12:11,230 | 好像你的這個所有銀劍的 |
| 01:12:11,230 | 01:12:13,230 | 挖起來的土石全部是爛的 |
| 01:12:13,230 | 01:12:15,230 | 全部是不好的土 |
| 01:12:15,230 | 01:12:17,230 | 那怎麼處理 |
| 01:12:18,390 | 01:12:20,390 | 這個部分回答委員 |
| 01:12:20,390 | 01:12:22,390 | 那的確我們銀劍剩餘土石方 |
| 01:12:22,390 | 01:12:24,390 | 指的是是來源的部分 |
| 01:12:24,390 | 01:12:26,390 | 只要凡是是相關的 |
| 01:12:26,390 | 01:12:28,390 | 建築公共工程或是管線 |
| 01:12:28,390 | 01:12:30,390 | 工程所施工產生 |
| 01:12:30,390 | 01:12:32,390 | 挖出來的都叫做我們的銀劍 |
| 01:12:32,390 | 01:12:34,390 | 剩餘土石方那這個部分的確也 |
| 01:12:34,390 | 01:12:36,390 | 包括了非常多的種類我們有分 |
| 01:12:36,390 | 01:12:38,390 | B1到B7 |
| 01:12:38,390 | 01:12:40,390 | 可能裡面就會有所謂的表土 |
| 01:12:40,390 | 01:12:42,390 | 黏土一般的土壤 |
| 01:12:42,390 | 01:12:44,390 | 沙子礫石岩塊 |
| 01:12:44,390 | 01:12:46,390 | 這些都是在我們的銀劍剩餘土石方 |
| 01:12:46,390 | 01:12:48,390 | 的範疇裡面 |
| 01:12:48,390 | 01:12:50,390 | 所以目前如果照這個 |
| 01:12:50,390 | 01:12:52,390 | 修法文字所所寫的部分 |
| 01:12:52,390 | 01:12:54,390 | 銀劍剩餘土石方 |
| 01:12:54,390 | 01:12:56,390 | 就會範疇這些所有挖出來的 |
| 01:12:56,390 | 01:12:58,390 | 這些相關的所有的土壤 |
| 01:12:58,390 | 01:13:00,390 | 都包含在裡面 |
| 01:13:00,390 | 01:13:02,390 | 所以範疇是比較大的以上說明 |
| 01:13:03,110 | 01:13:05,110 | 好,所以這個好土壞土 |
| 01:13:06,790 | 01:13:08,790 | 只要是銀劍剩餘土石方 |
| 01:13:08,790 | 01:13:10,790 | 通通都不能回填 |
| 01:13:10,600 | 01:13:12,600 | 不能回填農地,來,部長 |
| 01:13:12,640 | 01:13:14,640 | 好土能不能回填農地 |
| 01:13:15,830 | 01:13:17,830 | 一線量的辦法 |
| 01:13:17,830 | 01:13:19,830 | 就是農地如果需要改良的時候 |
| 01:13:19,830 | 01:13:21,830 | 它銀劍的這些廢土 |
| 01:13:21,830 | 01:13:23,830 | 它經過土資廠去 |
| 01:13:23,830 | 01:13:25,830 | 做分類了以後 |
| 01:13:25,830 | 01:13:27,830 | 適合農地的還是可以用 |
| 01:13:27,830 | 01:13:29,830 | 然後如果你再... |
| 01:13:29,830 | 01:13:31,830 | 所以我才會說 |
| 01:13:31,830 | 01:13:33,830 | 有一些很細的東西 |
| 01:13:33,830 | 01:13:35,830 | 相關的在種類的部分 |
| 01:13:35,830 | 01:13:37,830 | 應該是在細則裡面去做 |
| 01:13:37,830 | 01:13:39,830 | 規範跟處理 |
| 01:13:39,830 | 01:13:41,830 | 但是你一旦拉到母法的時候 |
| 01:13:41,830 | 01:13:43,830 | 你寫死了就完全不能用了 |
| 01:13:43,830 | 01:13:45,830 | 那你要修的話要重新再修法 |
| 01:13:45,830 | 01:13:47,830 | 那個時間的反應就會比較慢 |
| 01:13:47,830 | 01:13:49,830 | 這個我... |
| 01:13:49,830 | 01:13:51,830 | 我覺得講大白話 |
| 01:13:51,830 | 01:13:53,830 | 寫這一條就是你們當時在說 |
| 01:13:53,830 | 01:13:55,830 | 這個所謂的美農大峽谷 |
| 01:13:55,830 | 01:13:57,830 | 被挖了 |
| 01:13:57,830 | 01:13:59,830 | 所以大家現在就是說農地 |
| 01:13:59,830 | 01:14:01,830 | 要有很多的限制 |
| 01:14:01,830 | 01:14:03,830 | 這個我也同意 |
| 01:14:03,830 | 01:14:05,830 | 不適合回填到農地的土質 |
| 01:14:05,830 | 01:14:07,830 | 當然不能回填到農地 |
| 01:14:07,830 | 01:14:09,830 | 我們還是要回復農地可以種植使用 |
| 01:14:09,830 | 01:14:11,830 | 但是如果能夠對於農地進行土質改良 |
| 01:14:11,830 | 01:14:13,830 | 又或者你所有的土方 |
| 01:14:13,830 | 01:14:15,830 | 比如說你有的土 |
| 01:14:17,140 | 01:14:19,140 | 有的農地他的種子是需要砂的 |
| 01:14:19,140 | 01:14:21,140 | 然後你現在寫砂也不行填農地 |
| 01:14:22,490 | 01:14:24,490 | 那請問需要砂質土的 |
| 01:14:24,490 | 01:14:26,490 | 這個農地要怎麼做 |
| 01:14:26,490 | 01:14:28,490 | 那你的銀建剩餘土石方 |
| 01:14:28,490 | 01:14:30,490 | 按照你們講的國土屬的講法 |
| 01:14:30,490 | 01:14:32,490 | 銀建剩餘土石方就有分七種 |
| 01:14:33,410 | 01:14:35,410 | 從B1到B7啊 |
| 01:14:35,410 | 01:14:37,410 | 那你只有短短幾個字 |
| 01:14:37,410 | 01:14:39,410 | 七個字就把七種全部打掉了 |
| 01:14:40,480 | 01:14:42,480 | 我覺得這個也不盡合理吧 |
| 01:14:42,480 | 01:14:44,480 | 我們這修法不能因業廢食啊 |
| 01:14:44,480 | 01:14:46,480 | 我總是要留一個彈性 |
| 01:14:46,480 | 01:14:48,480 | 讓你們在執法裡頭去明定 |
| 01:14:48,480 | 01:14:50,480 | 那你們執法在明定的時候 |
| 01:14:50,480 | 01:14:52,480 | 哪一些是可以哪一些是不可以 |
| 01:14:52,480 | 01:14:54,480 | 你們一定是要跟 |
| 01:14:54,550 | 01:14:56,550 | 這個 |
| 01:14:55,700 | 01:14:57,700 | 內政部相關的單位 |
| 01:14:57,700 | 01:14:59,700 | 跨部會的單位一起去做 |
| 01:14:59,870 | 01:15:01,870 | 一起去做討論嘛 |
| 01:15:01,870 | 01:15:03,870 | 所以我不是很贊同在這裡 |
| 01:15:03,870 | 01:15:05,870 | 直接把這個法就把它寫死啊 |
| 01:15:06,550 | 01:15:08,550 | 我這邊稍微回應一下 |
| 01:15:08,550 | 01:15:10,550 | 就是我們現在也正在積極的處理 |
| 01:15:10,550 | 01:15:12,550 | 原來放在史詩戲者的 |
| 01:15:12,550 | 01:15:14,550 | 第十條 |
| 01:15:14,550 | 01:15:16,550 | 那個戲者裡面 |
| 01:15:16,550 | 01:15:18,550 | 的一些內容 |
| 01:15:18,550 | 01:15:20,550 | 內容裡面有一些當初在寫的時候 |
| 01:15:20,550 | 01:15:22,550 | 也太過於籠統 |
| 01:15:22,550 | 01:15:24,550 | 那太過於籠統的時候 |
| 01:15:24,550 | 01:15:26,550 | 可能造成後續執行的困難 |
| 01:15:26,550 | 01:15:28,550 | 所以在戲者裡面去做彈性的調整 |
| 01:15:28,550 | 01:15:30,550 | 他對於 |
| 01:15:30,550 | 01:15:32,550 | 外界的這些需要處理的 |
| 01:15:32,550 | 01:15:34,550 | 反應速度會比放在 |
| 01:15:34,550 | 01:15:36,550 | 無法來快啦 |
| 01:15:36,550 | 01:15:38,550 | 這是我想我們當初我們建議說 |
| 01:15:38,550 | 01:15:40,550 | 還是維持在戲者裡面的一個重要性 |
| 01:15:42,750 | 01:15:44,750 | 好等一下我先簡單回應一下 |
| 01:15:44,750 | 01:15:46,750 | 等一下再請楊全文再增添起來 |
| 01:15:46,750 | 01:15:48,750 | 因為當時這一條的話 |
| 01:15:48,750 | 01:15:50,750 | 基本上是從你的這個 |
| 01:15:50,750 | 01:15:52,750 | 農業發展條例 |
| 01:15:52,750 | 01:15:54,750 | 實行戲者對不對 |
| 01:15:54,750 | 01:15:56,750 | 二之一你們寫的嘛 |
| 01:15:56,750 | 01:15:58,750 | 所以我這些的話剛剛中間 |
| 01:15:58,750 | 01:16:00,750 | 楊二之一還沒來跟我談 |
| 01:16:00,480 | 01:16:02,480 | 我都是照你們的寫的喔 |
| 01:16:25,150 | 01:16:27,150 | 在 |
| 01:16:27,150 | 01:16:29,150 | 農業發展條例 |
| 01:16:29,150 | 01:16:31,150 | 實行戲者 |
| 01:16:31,150 | 01:16:33,150 | 委員的條例裡面 |
| 01:16:33,150 | 01:16:35,150 | 出現了所謂的天然原土 |
| 01:16:35,580 | 01:16:37,580 | 或適合農作物資 |
| 01:16:37,580 | 01:16:39,580 | 有機質改良土外 |
| 01:16:39,580 | 01:16:41,580 | 那基本上有機質 |
| 01:16:41,580 | 01:16:43,580 | 本來就是可以放在 |
| 01:16:43,580 | 01:16:45,580 | 土壤裡面去的 |
| 01:16:45,580 | 01:16:47,580 | 我們相關的放在土壤裡面的 |
| 01:16:47,580 | 01:16:49,580 | 這些添加物 |
| 01:16:49,580 | 01:16:51,580 | 也有相關的一個標準 |
| 01:16:51,580 | 01:16:53,580 | 所以我們才會一直說這樣的一個法律 |
| 01:16:53,580 | 01:16:55,580 | 對我現在 |
| 01:16:55,580 | 01:16:57,580 | 你現在剛剛跟我回的是 |
| 01:16:57,580 | 01:16:59,580 | 剛剛委員我現在在回台委員的 |
| 01:16:59,580 | 01:17:01,580 | 一個就是 |
| 01:17:01,580 | 01:17:03,580 | 不得殺食專瓦混淋土壞 |
| 01:17:03,580 | 01:17:05,580 | 或其他不適合種植 |
| 01:17:05,580 | 01:17:07,580 | 這是從我從你們的農業實行戲者 |
| 01:17:07,580 | 01:17:09,580 | 條例二之一條拉出來的 |
| 01:17:11,140 | 01:17:13,140 | 對啊 |
| 01:17:12,940 | 01:17:14,940 | 謝謝 |
| 01:17:15,800 | 01:17:17,800 | 我只是在講這些事 |
| 01:17:17,800 | 01:17:19,800 | 至於你講的農業目的天然原土 |
| 01:17:19,800 | 01:17:21,800 | 所以我前面後面也講了 |
| 01:17:21,800 | 01:17:23,800 | 就是讓你可以去改 |
| 01:17:24,060 | 01:17:26,060 | 所以你是遵行你的認定 |
| 01:17:26,630 | 01:17:28,630 | 好我這樣回答完請這個 |
| 01:17:29,730 | 01:17:31,730 | 好楊全英委員 |
| 01:17:31,680 | 01:17:33,680 | 部長我知道 |
| 01:17:34,040 | 01:17:36,040 | 因為之前發生了那麼多事情 |
| 01:17:36,040 | 01:17:38,040 | 也成為一個 |
| 01:17:38,040 | 01:17:40,040 | 社會議題大家共同在 |
| 01:17:40,040 | 01:17:42,040 | 討論 |
| 01:17:41,430 | 01:17:43,430 | 那我剛剛要舉手表達的就是說 |
| 01:17:43,430 | 01:17:45,430 | 你本來就是在你的 |
| 01:17:47,820 | 01:17:49,820 | 你的實行戲者二之一裡頭 |
| 01:17:49,820 | 01:17:51,820 | 就是在這些重點文字 |
| 01:17:53,700 | 01:17:55,700 | 那你當委員有 |
| 01:17:55,960 | 01:17:57,960 | 每一個人都有每一個人的看法 |
| 01:17:58,490 | 01:18:00,490 | 當這個看法提出的時候 |
| 01:18:00,490 | 01:18:02,490 | 你應該要坦白的去說明 |
| 01:18:02,490 | 01:18:04,490 | 在你的二之一你本來 |
| 01:18:04,490 | 01:18:06,490 | 就是這樣寫啊 |
| 01:18:06,490 | 01:18:08,490 | 對不對 |
| 01:18:08,490 | 01:18:10,490 | 而且他這個第十條之一 |
| 01:18:10,490 | 01:18:12,490 | 所以最後倒數第二行 |
| 01:18:12,990 | 01:18:14,990 | 以上所相關由中央主管機關貴商 |
| 01:18:14,990 | 01:18:16,990 | 有關當 |
| 01:18:16,990 | 01:18:18,990 | 有關機關訂定之 |
| 01:18:20,070 | 01:18:22,070 | 所以我們今天在審法案 |
| 01:18:22,070 | 01:18:24,070 | 應該是針對於 |
| 01:18:24,310 | 01:18:26,310 | 法案的法條的內容 |
| 01:18:26,310 | 01:18:28,310 | 以及你在執行方面 |
| 01:18:28,310 | 01:18:30,310 | 要怎麼去做 |
| 01:18:30,310 | 01:18:32,310 | 你不能自己打臉自己啊 |
| 01:18:32,310 | 01:18:34,310 | 你自己本身二之一就這麼寫 |
| 01:18:34,310 | 01:18:36,310 | 然後你在這邊讓人家以為說 |
| 01:18:36,310 | 01:18:38,310 | 這個是亂寫我覺得這樣不好 |
| 01:18:38,310 | 01:18:40,310 | 那我覺得討論到現在 |
| 01:18:40,310 | 01:18:42,310 | 大家都是非常 |
| 01:18:42,310 | 01:18:44,310 | 用心有責任的要怎麼樣 |
| 01:18:44,310 | 01:18:46,310 | 去解決 |
| 01:18:46,380 | 01:18:48,380 | 目前我們所碰到的這些問題 |
| 01:18:48,380 | 01:18:50,380 | 讓人民有所依歸 |
| 01:18:51,460 | 01:18:53,460 | 他依照你的法規 |
| 01:18:53,460 | 01:18:55,460 | 你的法條去執行之 |
| 01:18:55,460 | 01:18:57,460 | 這是民主國家裡頭最珍貴的一點嘛 |
| 01:18:57,460 | 01:18:59,460 | 所以你應該是 |
| 01:18:59,460 | 01:19:01,460 | 以下的發言我是充分建議 |
| 01:19:01,460 | 01:19:03,460 | 大家目標一致 |
| 01:19:04,590 | 01:19:06,590 | 目標是一致 |
| 01:19:06,590 | 01:19:08,590 | 那你的條文裡頭文字 |
| 01:19:08,590 | 01:19:10,590 | 你認為 |
| 01:19:09,970 | 01:19:11,970 | 已經有提出 |
| 01:19:11,970 | 01:19:13,970 | 行政部門認為 |
| 01:19:13,970 | 01:19:15,970 | 你在執行當中你認為 |
| 01:19:15,970 | 01:19:17,970 | 文字可以需要怎麼樣做調整 |
| 01:19:17,970 | 01:19:19,970 | 應該是在這個討論才對 |
| 01:19:21,360 | 01:19:23,360 | 是我的建議 |
| 01:19:23,840 | 01:19:25,840 | 這樣聽起來好遠 |
| 01:19:28,330 | 01:19:30,330 | 好 |
| 01:19:29,600 | 01:19:33,600 | 這個我真的是要誠心的建議農業部 |
| 01:19:34,420 | 01:19:36,420 | 立法委員 |
| 01:19:35,990 | 01:19:37,990 | 根據民意 |
| 01:19:37,700 | 01:19:39,700 | 提出這個法律案 |
| 01:19:40,380 | 01:19:42,380 | 就是認為 |
| 01:19:41,820 | 01:19:43,820 | 在現行的 |
| 01:19:43,770 | 01:19:45,770 | 農業發展條例施行細則 |
| 01:19:47,050 | 01:19:49,050 | 有不周圍的地方 |
| 01:19:49,050 | 01:19:51,050 | 所以要修正 |
| 01:19:51,110 | 01:19:53,110 | 但是我常常會建議你們修正 |
| 01:19:53,110 | 01:19:55,110 | 說因為 |
| 01:19:54,150 | 01:19:56,150 | 要不要修正決定權在裡面 |
| 01:19:56,150 | 01:19:58,150 | 那立法委員只能做的就是 |
| 01:19:58,150 | 01:20:00,150 | 把它列為法律的條文 |
| 01:20:00,830 | 01:20:02,830 | 我們唯一的方法就是這樣 |
| 01:20:03,040 | 01:20:05,040 | 所以在這樣的一個情形之下 |
| 01:20:05,580 | 01:20:07,580 | 我們現在討論這個條文 |
| 01:20:08,240 | 01:20:10,240 | 就應該好好地檢視 |
| 01:20:10,740 | 01:20:12,740 | 怎麼樣讓這個條文會更周延 |
| 01:20:14,550 | 01:20:16,550 | 應該是朝這個方向 |
| 01:20:17,660 | 01:20:19,660 | 而不是朝說不要訂不要訂 |
| 01:20:21,100 | 01:20:23,100 | 因為你本來就訂在辦法 |
| 01:20:23,100 | 01:20:25,100 | 而是你細則裡面 |
| 01:20:25,370 | 01:20:27,370 | 有不周圍的地方 |
| 01:20:27,370 | 01:20:29,370 | 所以我們要希望提升法律的位階 |
| 01:20:31,500 | 01:20:33,500 | 我們應該是這樣來討論 |
| 01:20:33,500 | 01:20:35,500 | 這是第一個 |
| 01:20:35,500 | 01:20:37,500 | 看文字要怎麼改 |
| 01:20:37,860 | 01:20:39,860 | 譬如說讓這個第一項 |
| 01:20:39,860 | 01:20:43,860 | 民眾黨團提案的第四條之一的第一項 |
| 01:20:45,420 | 01:20:49,420 | 這個文字是不是要再好好的討論 |
| 01:20:50,140 | 01:20:52,140 | 農業部也應該提供意見 |
| 01:20:52,760 | 01:20:54,760 | 如果這樣寫的話 |
| 01:20:54,760 | 01:20:58,760 | 農業用地應維持其農業生產功能以自然生態 |
| 01:20:59,860 | 01:21:01,860 | 如果這樣寫的話 |
| 01:21:01,720 | 01:21:03,720 | 是不是 |
| 01:21:02,980 | 01:21:04,980 | 是不是會限制了什麼 |
| 01:21:05,450 | 01:21:07,450 | 而不是全盤的活動 |
| 01:21:07,450 | 01:21:09,450 | 我們應該是怎麼樣去討論 |
| 01:21:10,980 | 01:21:12,980 | 所以把文字修得更好 |
| 01:21:12,980 | 01:21:14,980 | 以上 |
| 01:21:15,780 | 01:21:17,780 | 周家斌委 |
| 01:21:17,780 | 01:21:19,780 | 謝謝主席 |
| 01:21:19,780 | 01:21:21,780 | 主席把元雄抓到了 |
| 01:21:21,070 | 01:21:23,070 | 就是目前 |
| 01:21:23,070 | 01:21:25,070 | 目前這個條文十之一條 |
| 01:21:25,070 | 01:21:29,070 | 他是從農法條例施行細則的第二之一條 |
| 01:21:28,970 | 01:21:30,970 | 那我請主席 |
| 01:21:31,670 | 01:21:37,670 | 是不是主席可以把農法條例第二之一條把它秀出來 |
| 01:21:37,340 | 01:21:41,340 | 其實這裡面剛好凸顯的不是現在修法的問題 |
| 01:21:41,340 | 01:21:46,340 | 是在原來執法的施行細則存在著一個長期困擾 |
| 01:21:46,340 | 01:21:49,340 | 不同農業用途使用的農民的困擾 |
| 01:21:49,340 | 01:21:51,340 | 剛剛主席提到說 |
| 01:21:51,340 | 01:21:53,340 | 這個條文他們正在修 |
| 01:21:53,340 | 01:21:57,340 | 為什麼農民就知道原來不是出在這次的修法 |
| 01:21:57,340 | 01:22:00,340 | 出在目前農法條例施行細則第二之一條 |
| 01:22:00,340 | 01:22:04,340 | 他寫說前條農業用地從事農業使用 |
| 01:22:04,340 | 01:22:06,340 | 好 |
| 01:22:09,310 | 01:22:11,310 | 你看一下第二條寫的 |
| 01:22:11,310 | 01:22:13,310 | 什麼叫做農業用地 |
| 01:22:13,310 | 01:22:14,310 | 農業用地有包括什麼 |
| 01:22:14,310 | 01:22:16,310 | 他按照使用分區 |
| 01:22:16,310 | 01:22:17,310 | 他有林業用地 |
| 01:22:17,310 | 01:22:18,310 | 養殖用地 |
| 01:22:18,310 | 01:22:19,310 | 水利用地 |
| 01:22:19,310 | 01:22:20,310 | 生態保護用地 |
| 01:22:20,310 | 01:22:21,310 | 國安保 |
| 01:22:21,310 | 01:22:23,310 | 國土保安地 |
| 01:22:23,310 | 01:22:25,310 | 急供農路使用之土地 |
| 01:22:25,500 | 01:22:27,500 | 這些都是農業用地耶 |
| 01:22:28,420 | 01:22:29,420 | 對不對 |
| 01:22:29,420 | 01:22:32,420 | 這些農業用地通通含塞在你第二條之一 |
| 01:22:33,180 | 01:22:34,180 | 必須 |
| 01:22:34,700 | 01:22:36,700 | 他如果是做農業使用 |
| 01:22:36,700 | 01:22:37,700 | 請教一下 |
| 01:22:37,860 | 01:22:39,860 | 農路是不是做農業使用 |
| 01:22:40,720 | 01:22:42,720 | 現在當然是做農業使用 |
| 01:22:42,720 | 01:22:46,720 | 前一陣子有一次省級部來糾正我們農業部 |
| 01:22:46,720 | 01:22:50,720 | 說我們對於我們的農業災害天然救助辦法當中 |
| 01:22:50,720 | 01:22:54,720 | 到底他的損害面積他的救助金額要根據種植面積去 |
| 01:22:54,720 | 01:22:56,720 | 結果省級部就挑了毛病 |
| 01:22:56,720 | 01:22:57,720 | 他根據空照圖 |
| 01:22:57,720 | 01:23:01,720 | 把我們農民申請農業災害天然救助的那些農地面積 |
| 01:23:01,720 | 01:23:03,720 | 裡面的農舍 |
| 01:23:03,720 | 01:23:04,720 | 裡面的農路 |
| 01:23:04,720 | 01:23:05,720 | 儲存空間 |
| 01:23:05,720 | 01:23:07,720 | 通通扣除 |
| 01:23:07,720 | 01:23:10,720 | 還要求農民要把這些義齡的金額還給部長 |
| 01:23:10,720 | 01:23:11,720 | 部長還記得吧 |
| 01:23:12,580 | 01:23:14,580 | 後來經過農業部的距離力增 |
| 01:23:14,580 | 01:23:16,580 | 其實也是因為農業部自己的辦法定的 |
| 01:23:16,580 | 01:23:18,580 | 讓省級部誤以為 |
| 01:23:18,580 | 01:23:22,580 | 這些農地上的農路進出的通道 |
| 01:23:22,580 | 01:23:25,580 | 跟農業生產無關 |
| 01:23:25,580 | 01:23:27,580 | 所以把它扣除了其實是有關 |
| 01:23:27,580 | 01:23:29,580 | 那如果農路是跟農業生產有關 |
| 01:23:29,580 | 01:23:31,580 | 一個農田如果沒有農路要怎麼耕作 |
| 01:23:32,340 | 01:23:34,340 | 那你這個農路也是農業用地 |
| 01:23:34,340 | 01:23:37,340 | 請問這個農業用地按照你二條之一 |
| 01:23:37,340 | 01:23:38,340 | 那是要什麼 |
| 01:23:38,340 | 01:23:39,340 | 要用 |
| 01:23:39,630 | 01:23:41,630 | 適合農業生產的 |
| 01:23:41,790 | 01:23:43,790 | 優質土壤區 |
| 01:23:43,770 | 01:23:45,770 | 你這是整死農民的農民在農地上 |
| 01:23:45,770 | 01:23:47,770 | 一整塊農地 |
| 01:23:47,770 | 01:23:48,770 | 他什麼時候他會去 |
| 01:23:48,770 | 01:23:50,770 | 一整地的時候他去撿嘛 |
| 01:23:50,770 | 01:23:51,770 | 就算種西瓜 |
| 01:23:51,770 | 01:23:53,770 | 裡面西瓜削不掉也有九頭嘛 |
| 01:23:54,870 | 01:23:56,870 | 他會把九頭撿來做 |
| 01:23:56,870 | 01:23:59,870 | 他出的農村要出的農路嘛 |
| 01:23:59,870 | 01:24:00,870 | 所以他一定會怎麼樣 |
| 01:24:00,870 | 01:24:02,870 | 他一定會有的地方好 |
| 01:24:02,870 | 01:24:03,870 | 有的地方吞 |
| 01:24:03,870 | 01:24:06,870 | 然後把那種沒有設計的九頭 |
| 01:24:06,870 | 01:24:08,870 | 他就撿做農路 |
| 01:24:08,870 | 01:24:10,870 | 我說教練現在不要說現在就罰了 |
| 01:24:11,710 | 01:24:13,710 | 原來的你們的施行細則 |
| 01:24:13,710 | 01:24:15,710 | 就有可能讓農民因為出版了二條之一 |
| 01:24:16,840 | 01:24:18,840 | 被你們根據農法條例去處罰 |
| 01:24:18,840 | 01:24:21,840 | 所以問題不是出在現在委員的版本 |
| 01:24:21,840 | 01:24:23,840 | 出在我們農法條例當初二條之一 |
| 01:24:23,840 | 01:24:26,840 | 忽略了剛剛我們說的這些情況 |
| 01:24:26,840 | 01:24:28,840 | 他說前一條農業用地 |
| 01:24:28,840 | 01:24:30,840 | 這裡面包括農路喔 |
| 01:24:30,840 | 01:24:31,840 | 從事農業使用 |
| 01:24:31,840 | 01:24:33,840 | 農路也是從事農業使用喔 |
| 01:24:33,840 | 01:24:34,840 | 而有田土需要者 |
| 01:24:34,840 | 01:24:36,840 | 農路要不要田 |
| 01:24:36,840 | 01:24:37,840 | 要田啊 |
| 01:24:37,840 | 01:24:41,840 | 你田土的土質應該適合農業種植農作物之土壤 |
| 01:24:43,000 | 01:24:43,500 | 對啊 |
| 01:24:44,000 | 01:24:45,000 | 我事過於行 |
| 01:24:45,000 | 01:24:46,000 | 事過於行內 |
| 01:24:46,000 | 01:24:49,000 | 我要出農村才要出農路 |
| 01:24:49,000 | 01:24:51,000 | 我已經是用九頭去吞了 |
| 01:24:51,780 | 01:24:52,280 | 對不對 |
| 01:24:52,280 | 01:24:54,780 | 這你還規定要用什麼優質土壤 |
| 01:24:54,780 | 01:24:56,780 | 所以顯然的問題不是出在什麼 |
| 01:24:56,780 | 01:24:57,780 | 不是出在母法 |
| 01:24:57,780 | 01:24:59,780 | 是出在施行細則當中 |
| 01:24:59,780 | 01:25:00,780 | 二條之一 |
| 01:25:00,780 | 01:25:02,780 | 的確有在施行上有一些 |
| 01:25:02,780 | 01:25:03,780 | 致害難行之處 |
| 01:25:03,780 | 01:25:06,780 | 所以或許我們應該要求農業部 |
| 01:25:06,780 | 01:25:07,780 | 把二條之一的施行細則 |
| 01:25:07,780 | 01:25:08,780 | 好好的檢視一下 |
| 01:25:08,780 | 01:25:10,780 | 不然你二條之一講的農業用地 |
| 01:25:11,760 | 01:25:12,760 | 水利用地算不算 |
| 01:25:12,760 | 01:25:13,760 | 是啊 |
| 01:25:14,220 | 01:25:14,720 | 啊 |
| 01:25:15,280 | 01:25:17,280 | 農業用地什麼算 |
| 01:25:17,970 | 01:25:19,970 | 啊農路是做農業使用的 |
| 01:25:19,970 | 01:25:20,470 | 是啊 |
| 01:25:20,470 | 01:25:21,970 | 啊做農業使用的農路 |
| 01:25:21,970 | 01:25:22,970 | 不能用石頭去填 |
| 01:25:22,970 | 01:25:23,970 | 你告訴我用什麼填 |
| 01:25:25,290 | 01:25:27,290 | 不過這個在他們農法條例的 |
| 01:25:27,290 | 01:25:29,290 | 八字一條第三項 |
| 01:25:29,290 | 01:25:31,290 | 大概就有授權訂定了 |
| 01:25:31,720 | 01:25:34,720 | 因為你們在申請農業用地農業設施 |
| 01:25:34,720 | 01:25:36,720 | 容許使用審查辦法 |
| 01:25:36,720 | 01:25:38,720 | 還有對這些農路什麼這些的 |
| 01:25:38,720 | 01:25:40,720 | 有去做設施的審查規定 |
| 01:25:40,720 | 01:25:41,720 | 有啦 |
| 01:25:41,720 | 01:25:42,720 | 所以說 |
| 01:25:42,720 | 01:25:44,720 | 他在八字一條第三項這邊 |
| 01:25:45,370 | 01:25:46,370 | 就是因為有困擾 |
| 01:25:46,370 | 01:25:48,370 | 我們才會過來關心這個題目 |
| 01:25:48,370 | 01:25:49,370 | 我想謝謝委員 |
| 01:25:49,370 | 01:25:51,370 | 我想我們的目標都是一次的 |
| 01:25:51,370 | 01:25:52,370 | 包括剛才委員講的 |
| 01:25:52,370 | 01:25:56,370 | 我從來沒有為反對而反對的部分 |
| 01:25:56,370 | 01:25:57,370 | 那我這邊考慮 |
| 01:25:57,370 | 01:26:00,370 | 我剛才一開始也特別提到就是說 |
| 01:26:00,370 | 01:26:02,370 | 因為填土的時候 |
| 01:26:02,370 | 01:26:04,370 | 會有各種不同的樣態 |
| 01:26:04,370 | 01:26:06,370 | 那如果在摸法寫的時候 |
| 01:26:06,370 | 01:26:07,370 | 就會很容易 |
| 01:26:08,390 | 01:26:10,390 | 就是把他鎖住了 |
| 01:26:10,390 | 01:26:12,390 | 包括營建土石方 |
| 01:26:12,390 | 01:26:14,390 | 那營建土石方經過土資廠 |
| 01:26:14,390 | 01:26:17,390 | 去萃出來的適合農地的土壤 |
| 01:26:17,390 | 01:26:18,390 | 他還是可以用 |
| 01:26:18,390 | 01:26:20,390 | 但是我也說過 |
| 01:26:20,390 | 01:26:23,390 | 我們現在的實施細則二字一條 |
| 01:26:23,390 | 01:26:25,390 | 也應該要檢討 |
| 01:26:25,390 | 01:26:27,390 | 而這個檢討是應該放在 |
| 01:26:27,390 | 01:26:29,390 | 實施細則裡面去做一個 |
| 01:26:29,390 | 01:26:31,390 | 更詳細的解釋跟分類 |
| 01:26:31,390 | 01:26:34,390 | 而不是說放在摸法裡面 |
| 01:26:34,390 | 01:26:36,390 | 我這邊只是建議說不要放在摸法 |
| 01:26:36,390 | 01:26:37,390 | 放在實施細則 |
| 01:26:37,390 | 01:26:39,390 | 實施細則我們可以非常認真 |
| 01:26:39,390 | 01:26:41,390 | 再跟大家來討論 |
| 01:26:42,530 | 01:26:44,530 | 好 今天長官委員 |
| 01:26:47,940 | 01:26:48,940 | 這個 |
| 01:26:50,760 | 01:26:51,760 | 因為你現在的 |
| 01:26:52,450 | 01:26:54,450 | 施行細則農業發展條例 |
| 01:26:54,450 | 01:26:57,450 | 施行細則第二條之一 |
| 01:26:58,370 | 01:26:59,370 | 最後一項 |
| 01:27:00,300 | 01:27:02,300 | 違反前項規定者 |
| 01:27:02,300 | 01:27:06,300 | 就是前面的土石 砂石什麼那些 |
| 01:27:06,860 | 01:27:08,860 | 違反前項規定者 |
| 01:27:08,860 | 01:27:10,860 | 因依本條例第69條 |
| 01:27:10,860 | 01:27:12,860 | 規定處理 |
| 01:27:13,200 | 01:27:15,200 | 那69條是什麼呢 |
| 01:27:15,450 | 01:27:16,450 | 這是9條是說 |
| 01:27:16,450 | 01:27:19,450 | 你要用地違反7計劃法 |
| 01:27:19,450 | 01:27:21,450 | 都市計劃法 |
| 01:27:22,400 | 01:27:25,400 | 那它是不是所有你列舉的這些 |
| 01:27:26,100 | 01:27:29,100 | 所寫的這些難道都是違反 |
| 01:27:30,160 | 01:27:32,160 | 7計劃法都是計劃法 |
| 01:27:32,850 | 01:27:34,850 | 你要使用 |
| 01:27:35,290 | 01:27:36,290 | 你要列舉 |
| 01:27:37,400 | 01:27:41,400 | 所以就必須要涉及到要處罰各方面 |
| 01:27:41,400 | 01:27:43,400 | 那就要提升為法律的慰藉 |
| 01:27:43,400 | 01:27:46,400 | 的必要性就會產生 |
| 01:27:46,400 | 01:27:48,400 | 所以這個部分 |
| 01:27:50,950 | 01:27:54,950 | 剛剛您提到69條的那個違反使用的規定 |
| 01:27:54,950 | 01:27:56,950 | 違反土地使用的規定 |
| 01:27:56,950 | 01:27:58,950 | 那違反土地使用規定還有非常 |
| 01:27:58,950 | 01:28:01,950 | 因為土地使用規定還有相關的法 |
| 01:28:01,950 | 01:28:02,950 | 那它會共同去處理 |
| 01:28:02,950 | 01:28:05,950 | 像包括廢青法現在又加重了嘛 |
| 01:28:05,950 | 01:28:09,950 | 那它填的東西如果是屬於廢青法管轄的部分的話 |
| 01:28:09,950 | 01:28:12,950 | 那就又違反了相關的相關的這個 |
| 01:28:13,670 | 01:28:15,670 | 廢青法的一些條文裡面 |
| 01:28:15,670 | 01:28:20,670 | 所以我們還會說一個土地被爛到了東西的時候 |
| 01:28:20,670 | 01:28:24,670 | 它有非常多的墓地事業的法在去會罰它 |
| 01:28:24,670 | 01:28:27,670 | 而不是在農法條例這邊去處理 |
| 01:28:28,470 | 01:28:30,470 | 就是因為這樣所以 |
| 01:28:30,830 | 01:28:32,830 | 民眾黨團的提案 |
| 01:28:32,830 | 01:28:36,830 | 除了在第十條之一增加這一條之外 |
| 01:28:37,980 | 01:28:42,980 | 它連帶的在第69條也特別去明定 |
| 01:28:43,870 | 01:28:45,870 | 這是一個連帶的 |
| 01:28:46,460 | 01:28:51,460 | 就是怎麼樣一定是一定是因為執行這麼多年 |
| 01:28:51,460 | 01:28:56,460 | 尤其是這幾年發現了這樣的一個實際的案例 |
| 01:28:56,460 | 01:28:58,460 | 實際的情況 |
| 01:28:58,450 | 01:29:00,450 | 然後法有不周圓 |
| 01:29:00,450 | 01:29:02,450 | 電在市場細則也不周圓 |
| 01:29:03,750 | 01:29:05,750 | 的情況之下 |
| 01:29:05,220 | 01:29:07,220 | 提升為法律的位階 |
| 01:29:07,630 | 01:29:09,630 | 希望大家能夠支持 |
| 01:29:15,770 | 01:29:17,770 | 主席我想這樣 |
| 01:29:17,770 | 01:29:19,770 | 這一條其實我們都認為在母法 |
| 01:29:19,770 | 01:29:21,770 | 或者是在你們施行細則裡頭 |
| 01:29:21,770 | 01:29:23,770 | 其實就已經產生很大的落差 |
| 01:29:23,770 | 01:29:26,770 | 我是不是具體建議這一條我們就先保留 |
| 01:29:26,770 | 01:29:29,770 | 要不要把它放在母法或者是你的執法 |
| 01:29:29,770 | 01:29:31,770 | 其實要同併修 |
| 01:29:31,770 | 01:29:33,770 | 這個我們會來支持好不好 |
| 01:29:33,770 | 01:29:35,770 | 那我建議是不是這一條我們就先保留 |
| 01:29:36,510 | 01:29:38,510 | 我負荷 |
| 01:29:46,360 | 01:29:48,360 | 已經是 |
| 01:29:47,830 | 01:29:49,830 | 會有知愛難行的地方 |
| 01:29:49,910 | 01:29:52,910 | 這個當然是抄你們的施行細則來的 |
| 01:29:52,910 | 01:29:56,910 | 很顯然你們施行細則其實也是有大幅更動的 |
| 01:29:57,670 | 01:30:00,670 | 空間喔所以我的建議是不是我們就先保留 |
| 01:30:01,360 | 01:30:03,360 | 好謝謝主席 |
| 01:30:03,360 | 01:30:05,360 | 我是負荷我們邱委員的 |
| 01:30:05,360 | 01:30:07,360 | 其實問題不是出在母法啦 |
| 01:30:07,360 | 01:30:09,360 | 是出在執法啦 |
| 01:30:09,360 | 01:30:11,360 | 我把母法唸一遍因為剛剛我們講的那件事情 |
| 01:30:12,520 | 01:30:14,520 | 我們的署長我們的部長 |
| 01:30:14,520 | 01:30:16,520 | 當時審計部的時候 |
| 01:30:16,520 | 01:30:18,520 | 監察院來就證的時候我們都一起開協調會 |
| 01:30:18,520 | 01:30:20,520 | 我那時候還請審計部來 |
| 01:30:20,520 | 01:30:22,520 | 後來我們農法條例修改了哪裡 |
| 01:30:22,520 | 01:30:24,520 | 我們農法條例修改了第三條 |
| 01:30:24,520 | 01:30:26,520 | 第十款 |
| 01:30:27,600 | 01:30:29,600 | 它裡面有三目 |
| 01:30:29,600 | 01:30:31,600 | 你把農法條例 |
| 01:30:31,000 | 01:30:33,000 | 第三條第十款 |
| 01:30:33,000 | 01:30:35,000 | 它寫農業用地包含了什麼 |
| 01:30:35,700 | 01:30:37,700 | 包含了非都跟都市的農業區保護區 |
| 01:30:37,700 | 01:30:39,700 | 一發使用 |
| 01:30:39,700 | 01:30:41,700 | 做什麼使用做三個目的使用 |
| 01:30:41,700 | 01:30:43,700 | 有做農作的 |
| 01:30:43,700 | 01:30:45,700 | 有做森林的 |
| 01:30:45,700 | 01:30:47,700 | 有做養殖的 |
| 01:30:47,700 | 01:30:49,700 | 有做畜牧的有做保育的 |
| 01:30:48,970 | 01:30:50,970 | 然後最關鍵的是第二目 |
| 01:30:50,970 | 01:30:52,970 | 他說工農業經營不可分離之農舍 |
| 01:30:54,910 | 01:30:56,910 | 敘情色 |
| 01:30:56,340 | 01:30:58,340 | 倉儲設施 |
| 01:30:58,340 | 01:31:04,340 | 賽場集貨場農路灌溉排水及其他農用之土地 |
| 01:31:04,340 | 01:31:06,340 | 我們很清楚農業有包括什麼 |
| 01:31:06,340 | 01:31:08,340 | 有包括敘情色 |
| 01:31:07,780 | 01:31:09,780 | 有包括養殖 |
| 01:31:09,780 | 01:31:11,780 | 對不對 |
| 01:31:11,780 | 01:31:13,780 | 然後農作物要有灌溉跟排水 |
| 01:31:13,780 | 01:31:15,780 | 還有農路 |
| 01:31:15,780 | 01:31:17,780 | 這些都涵蓋在農業用地的範圍 |
| 01:31:17,780 | 01:31:19,780 | 結果你們的母馬農法條例 |
| 01:31:19,780 | 01:31:21,780 | 第三條第一項第十 |
| 01:31:21,780 | 01:31:23,780 | 第十款第一第二目 |
| 01:31:23,780 | 01:31:25,780 | 這些都是 |
| 01:31:25,780 | 01:31:27,780 | 都是農業用地 |
| 01:31:27,780 | 01:31:29,780 | 結果你們在第二條之一 |
| 01:31:30,330 | 01:31:32,330 | 你們在施行細則第二條之一寫了什麼 |
| 01:31:33,400 | 01:31:35,400 | 就寫說錢向農業用地 |
| 01:31:37,010 | 01:31:39,010 | 錢向農業用地就只能講東西含不嚷嚷的 |
| 01:31:39,010 | 01:31:41,010 | 在母馬裡面規定的 |
| 01:31:41,010 | 01:31:43,010 | 都必須要填土需要時 |
| 01:31:43,010 | 01:31:45,010 | 他填的土壤因為適合種植的農作物 |
| 01:31:45,580 | 01:31:47,580 | 請問一下如果我的農業用地我是做敘情色 |
| 01:31:48,870 | 01:31:50,870 | 我那裡比較低我怕淹水 |
| 01:31:50,900 | 01:31:52,900 | 我要填敘情色來蓋敘情色的土壤 |
| 01:31:52,900 | 01:31:54,900 | 需要是要適合種植的嗎 |
| 01:31:54,900 | 01:31:56,900 | 所以問題不是出在農法條例 |
| 01:31:56,900 | 01:31:58,900 | 農法條例後來的修正 |
| 01:31:58,900 | 01:32:00,900 | 已經符合貼近了我們農業生產現場的需求 |
| 01:32:00,900 | 01:32:02,900 | 但是你們原來施行細則的二之一 |
| 01:32:02,900 | 01:32:04,900 | 沒有跟得動 |
| 01:32:04,900 | 01:32:06,900 | 以至於他的含色範圍 |
| 01:32:06,900 | 01:32:08,900 | 把我剛剛所說的 |
| 01:32:08,900 | 01:32:10,900 | 那些農業用地 |
| 01:32:10,900 | 01:32:12,900 | 通通狹隘著局限在農業種植的思考當中 |
| 01:32:12,900 | 01:32:14,900 | 通通狹隘著局限在農業種植的思考當中 |
| 01:32:14,900 | 01:32:16,900 | 通通狹隘著局限在農業種植的思考當中 |
| 01:32:16,900 | 01:32:18,900 | 所以我是建議符合我們邱委員的 |
| 01:32:18,900 | 01:32:20,900 | 是不是請農業部 |
| 01:32:20,900 | 01:32:22,900 | 去想一下你的施行細則 |
| 01:32:22,900 | 01:32:24,900 | 二之一條要怎麼幹 |
| 01:32:24,630 | 01:32:26,630 | 不是我們把一個不符合農法條例 |
| 01:32:26,630 | 01:32:28,630 | 第三條的 |
| 01:32:28,630 | 01:32:30,630 | 施行細則二之一條 |
| 01:32:30,630 | 01:32:32,630 | 拿回來裝在我們的地 |
| 01:32:32,650 | 01:32:34,650 | 六十條 |
| 01:32:34,490 | 01:32:36,490 | 我是具體這樣建議去調整 |
| 01:32:37,340 | 01:32:39,340 | 來 楊瓊宇委員 |
| 01:32:40,160 | 01:32:42,160 | 部長 我們有時候思考議題 |
| 01:32:42,160 | 01:32:44,160 | 針對第十條之一的爭議有兩個 |
| 01:32:44,160 | 01:32:46,160 | 針對第十條之一的爭議有兩個 |
| 01:32:47,380 | 01:32:49,380 | 第一個 內容對執行 |
| 01:32:50,080 | 01:32:52,080 | 執行的成效會如何 |
| 01:32:52,080 | 01:32:54,080 | 有沒有什麼可通 |
| 01:32:54,080 | 01:32:56,080 | 或者是摯愛難行的部分 |
| 01:32:56,080 | 01:32:58,080 | 明瞭說明的是這個 |
| 01:32:58,080 | 01:33:00,080 | 這是第一個 |
| 01:32:59,500 | 01:33:01,500 | 第一個 我也覺得說 |
| 01:33:01,560 | 01:33:03,560 | 將它列入某法 |
| 01:33:03,800 | 01:33:05,800 | 跟你長期都在施行細則 |
| 01:33:08,830 | 01:33:10,830 | 你們的成效又是如何 |
| 01:33:10,830 | 01:33:12,830 | 因為到目前為止 |
| 01:33:12,830 | 01:33:14,830 | 衍生了這麼多的社會議題 |
| 01:33:15,660 | 01:33:17,660 | 也因為技術 |
| 01:33:17,970 | 01:33:19,970 | 氣候等等 |
| 01:33:19,970 | 01:33:21,970 | 情境條件的一個改變 |
| 01:33:21,970 | 01:33:23,970 | 如果只依照 |
| 01:33:23,970 | 01:33:25,970 | 目前你們的執行 |
| 01:33:25,970 | 01:33:27,970 | 施行細則來執行之 |
| 01:33:27,970 | 01:33:29,970 | 難怪會出這樣的 |
| 01:33:29,970 | 01:33:31,970 | 一個社會現象 |
| 01:33:31,970 | 01:33:33,970 | 那麼討論到現在 |
| 01:33:34,010 | 01:33:36,010 | 我個人也非常認為就是說 |
| 01:33:36,010 | 01:33:38,010 | 我們定法目的 |
| 01:33:38,010 | 01:33:40,010 | 就是要讓執行者 |
| 01:33:40,010 | 01:33:42,010 | 能夠執行 |
| 01:33:41,970 | 01:33:43,970 | 讓遵循者能夠 |
| 01:33:43,970 | 01:33:45,970 | 有法規可遵循 |
| 01:33:45,970 | 01:33:47,970 | 這非常重要 |
| 01:33:47,970 | 01:33:49,970 | 所以我要請教一個議題 |
| 01:33:50,480 | 01:33:52,480 | 你也意識到在你的施行細則裡頭 |
| 01:33:52,480 | 01:33:54,480 | 你是沒有辦法 |
| 01:33:54,480 | 01:33:56,480 | 去應對目前的樣態 |
| 01:33:56,480 | 01:33:58,480 | 那請問已經這麼久了 |
| 01:33:58,480 | 01:34:00,480 | 你什麼時候可以把你的 |
| 01:34:00,480 | 01:34:02,480 | 施行細則你所具具要調整的 |
| 01:34:02,480 | 01:34:04,480 | 你提出來 請問 |
| 01:34:04,620 | 01:34:06,620 | 你應該要給一個時間 |
| 01:34:06,620 | 01:34:08,620 | 要不然我們一直卡在這裡 |
| 01:34:08,620 | 01:34:10,620 | 我們看到社會問題一直呈現 |
| 01:34:10,620 | 01:34:12,620 | 這不行的 |
| 01:34:11,690 | 01:34:13,690 | 來 我教你 |
| 01:34:13,810 | 01:34:15,810 | 好 第一個部分我想 |
| 01:34:15,810 | 01:34:17,810 | 謝謝委員的一個提醒 |
| 01:34:17,810 | 01:34:19,810 | 我剛才強調就是說 |
| 01:34:19,810 | 01:34:21,810 | 我們要改 |
| 01:34:21,810 | 01:34:23,810 | 是實施細則裡面有非常多的 |
| 01:34:23,810 | 01:34:25,810 | 細目必須要去調整才能夠符合 |
| 01:34:25,810 | 01:34:27,810 | 現代的一個規範 |
| 01:34:27,810 | 01:34:29,810 | 那實施細則 |
| 01:34:29,810 | 01:34:31,810 | 你就是因為你施行細則不行 |
| 01:34:31,810 | 01:34:33,810 | 所以人家都已經要提出母法 |
| 01:34:33,460 | 01:34:35,460 | 對不對 所以你要告訴我們 |
| 01:34:35,460 | 01:34:37,460 | 你認為不行的 |
| 01:34:37,460 | 01:34:39,460 | 我們一個月到兩個月就可以把它完成 |
| 01:34:39,460 | 01:34:41,460 | 一個月到兩個月 |
| 01:34:41,460 | 01:34:43,460 | 一個月到兩個月之間就可以把它提出來 |
| 01:34:43,460 | 01:34:45,460 | 那你一個月提出來嘛 |
| 01:34:45,460 | 01:34:47,460 | 我們一個月把它提出來 |
| 01:34:47,460 | 01:34:49,460 | 那我是不是充分建議 |
| 01:34:49,460 | 01:34:51,460 | 我覺得也不能停滯在這裡 |
| 01:34:51,460 | 01:34:53,460 | 因為這個問題不解決不行的 |
| 01:34:53,460 | 01:34:55,460 | 所以我認為因為包刮帶 |
| 01:34:55,460 | 01:34:57,460 | 69條 |
| 01:34:57,460 | 01:34:59,460 | 後面的69條是依照 |
| 01:34:59,460 | 01:35:01,460 | 違反第10條之一的 |
| 01:35:01,460 | 01:35:03,460 | 情況 所以這兩條 |
| 01:35:03,460 | 01:35:05,460 | 是不是你們就承諾喔 |
| 01:35:05,460 | 01:35:07,460 | 在一個月內要提出 |
| 01:35:07,460 | 01:35:09,460 | 你們的方案 |
| 01:35:09,460 | 01:35:11,460 | 我個人認為這個是可以保留 |
| 01:35:11,460 | 01:35:13,460 | 送協商 就運用在這一個 |
| 01:35:13,460 | 01:35:15,460 | 月內 我們去討論 |
| 01:35:15,460 | 01:35:17,460 | 去調整 這樣好嗎 |
| 01:35:21,400 | 01:35:23,400 | 謝謝大家 |
| 01:35:23,490 | 01:35:25,490 | 我告訴你實在 |
| 01:35:25,490 | 01:35:27,490 | 你的母法裡面把這個設死掉了 |
| 01:35:27,490 | 01:35:29,490 | 你施行細則的話 |
| 01:35:29,490 | 01:35:31,490 | 你做出來不完整 |
| 01:35:32,080 | 01:35:34,080 | 因為你們做這樣的做法 |
| 01:35:34,080 | 01:35:36,080 | 是在保護你自己 怕被人家攻擊 |
| 01:35:36,080 | 01:35:38,080 | 那我現在跟你講幾個重點 |
| 01:35:38,080 | 01:35:40,080 | 你什麼叫做天然黏土 |
| 01:35:41,820 | 01:35:43,820 | 什麼叫做四合龍 |
| 01:35:44,870 | 01:35:48,870 | 四合龍就只有機制改良圖外 |
| 01:35:48,870 | 01:35:50,870 | 沒有確切的標準 |
| 01:35:50,870 | 01:35:52,870 | 我也跟你講實際地方的情形 |
| 01:35:53,710 | 01:35:57,710 | 在台中以北如果挖地下室的那個土壤 |
| 01:35:58,420 | 01:36:00,420 | 在北部 |
| 01:35:59,820 | 01:36:01,820 | 叫做四葉廢墟 |
| 01:36:01,820 | 01:36:03,820 | 被抓到罰了很慘 |
| 01:36:03,820 | 01:36:05,820 | 所以這些台北的 |
| 01:36:05,820 | 01:36:07,820 | 地下室挖的那個 |
| 01:36:07,820 | 01:36:09,820 | 土方 |
| 01:36:09,820 | 01:36:11,820 | 都送到南部去 |
| 01:36:11,820 | 01:36:13,820 | 南部縣政府認可 |
| 01:36:13,820 | 01:36:15,820 | 沒有事 一口兩字 |
| 01:36:15,820 | 01:36:17,820 | 你可能不知道這個情形 |
| 01:36:18,330 | 01:36:20,330 | 地下室 |
| 01:36:19,400 | 01:36:21,400 | 我跟你們講 |
| 01:36:21,400 | 01:36:23,400 | 你現在這種土方的來源 |
| 01:36:23,400 | 01:36:25,400 | 天然的沿土外 |
| 01:36:25,400 | 01:36:27,400 | 還在北那裡 |
| 01:36:27,530 | 01:36:29,530 | 水土保存法去挖了一塊 |
| 01:36:29,530 | 01:36:31,530 | 你們就花錢了 |
| 01:36:31,530 | 01:36:33,530 | 百姓不管挖 |
| 01:36:33,530 | 01:36:35,530 | 現在土方要添土的主要來源 |
| 01:36:35,530 | 01:36:37,530 | 是什麼 |
| 01:36:37,530 | 01:36:39,530 | 就是地下室的土方 |
| 01:36:39,530 | 01:36:41,530 | 還有一個營建 |
| 01:36:41,530 | 01:36:43,530 | 廢棄物的一個 |
| 01:36:43,530 | 01:36:45,530 | 資源在分類的時候 |
| 01:36:45,530 | 01:36:47,530 | 打脆了再分類 |
| 01:36:47,530 | 01:36:49,530 | 那個是可以用的 |
| 01:36:49,590 | 01:36:51,590 | 但是你們就叫它巴西地 |
| 01:36:52,050 | 01:36:54,050 | 我是跟你講地方時期的情形 |
| 01:36:54,840 | 01:36:56,840 | 阿今次去跟你聊 |
| 01:36:56,840 | 01:36:58,840 | 無法在你實行信水都沒有改 |
| 01:37:00,020 | 01:37:02,020 | 我確實發現一個很嚴重 |
| 01:37:02,020 | 01:37:04,020 | 台中以北都當作 |
| 01:37:04,020 | 01:37:06,020 | 事業會居住 |
| 01:37:05,520 | 01:37:07,520 | 台中以南都當作一般土方 |
| 01:37:07,520 | 01:37:09,520 | 兩種標準 |
| 01:37:11,440 | 01:37:13,440 | 讓大家無所遵循 |
| 01:37:13,440 | 01:37:15,440 | 很多人說南部怎麼會有北部的 |
| 01:37:15,440 | 01:37:17,440 | 我也覺得莫名其妙 |
| 01:37:17,440 | 01:37:19,440 | 原來問題在這個地方 |
| 01:37:20,370 | 01:37:22,370 | 他們當初講的不清楚 |
| 01:37:23,080 | 01:37:25,080 | 因為挖地下室的土方 |
| 01:37:25,080 | 01:37:27,080 | 有很多是乾淨的 |
| 01:37:27,080 | 01:37:29,080 | 但是南美有一兩塊磚塊 |
| 01:37:29,080 | 01:37:31,080 | 你曉得警方會壓不住的嗎 |
| 01:37:31,080 | 01:37:33,080 | 只要一大片旅居裡面 |
| 01:37:33,080 | 01:37:35,080 | 找出三四個磚塊 |
| 01:37:35,080 | 01:37:37,080 | 就說這個是廢棄物處理 |
| 01:37:37,080 | 01:37:39,080 | 就用廢棄物的方法來處罰百姓 |
| 01:37:41,550 | 01:37:43,550 | 哪裡有照顧老民 |
| 01:37:43,500 | 01:37:45,500 | 黑市教育不敢當場 |
| 01:37:45,950 | 01:37:47,950 | 不敢當場 |
| 01:37:47,950 | 01:37:49,950 | 你們要做這樣的事情 |
| 01:37:49,950 | 01:37:51,950 | 把它分裂得很清楚 |
| 01:37:51,950 | 01:37:53,950 | 一有事的話你們就講 |
| 01:37:53,950 | 01:37:55,950 | 我還不可以啊你怎麼可以這麼做 |
| 01:37:56,410 | 01:37:58,410 | 這個問題確實很嚴重 |
| 01:37:58,410 | 01:38:00,410 | 不是要跟你爹辯論這裡有沒有 |
| 01:38:01,630 | 01:38:03,630 | 教官 略殘啊 |
| 01:38:04,510 | 01:38:06,510 | 你說去那邊 給我去那邊 |
| 01:38:08,020 | 01:38:10,020 | 那個沿途來 |
| 01:38:10,020 | 01:38:12,020 | 要帶他去你告訴我 拴你的沿途 |
| 01:38:12,020 | 01:38:14,020 | 我跟威翔報告天然沿途不是我寫的 |
| 01:38:14,020 | 01:38:16,020 | 不是你寫的 以前的人教的 |
| 01:38:16,020 | 01:38:18,020 | 你寫的 |
| 01:38:18,020 | 01:38:20,020 | 這些委員的提議 |
| 01:38:20,020 | 01:38:22,020 | 我就是沒什麼叫做天然 |
| 01:38:22,690 | 01:38:24,690 | 立法院地下室的土是不是天然領土 |
| 01:38:26,720 | 01:38:28,720 | 經濟的裁定 |
| 01:38:28,720 | 01:38:30,720 | 隨便你們講隨便你們寫 |
| 01:38:30,720 | 01:38:32,720 | 真的要撤離改革的時候 |
| 01:38:32,720 | 01:38:34,720 | 拜託一下 |
| 01:38:56,660 | 01:38:58,660 | 好第十條之一的話 |
| 01:38:58,660 | 01:39:00,660 | 我們主席保留宋協商 |
| 01:39:04,890 | 01:39:06,890 | 現在一起唸吧 跟第69條 |
| 01:39:06,890 | 01:39:08,890 | 一起保留宋協商 |
| 01:39:08,890 | 01:39:10,890 | 還有69條修正動議 |
| 01:39:13,090 | 01:39:15,090 | 修正動議是對取罰則而已 |
| 01:39:15,090 | 01:39:17,090 | 對準屠宰法的罰則 |
| 01:39:17,090 | 01:39:19,090 | 那個部長 |
| 01:39:19,090 | 01:39:21,090 | 那你一個月內一定要提出喔 |
| 01:39:21,360 | 01:39:23,360 | 因為他跨了三個部門 |
| 01:39:23,360 | 01:39:27,360 | 一定要整體去做對照 |
| 01:39:27,360 | 01:39:33,360 | 我希望在法條協商期限結束之前 |
| 01:39:33,360 | 01:39:35,360 | 我們一定會提出 |
| 01:39:35,360 | 01:39:37,360 | 一個月嘛 |
| 01:39:37,360 | 01:39:39,360 | 他提出他的方案啦 |
| 01:39:45,710 | 01:39:47,710 | 第十條之一跟 |
| 01:39:47,710 | 01:39:49,710 | 因為第69條還有修正動議 |
| 01:39:49,710 | 01:39:51,710 | 會連動 |
| 01:39:53,830 | 01:39:55,830 | 好接下來我們進行第60條 |
| 01:39:58,150 | 01:40:00,150 | 那我再跟各位委員複習一下 |
| 01:40:00,150 | 01:40:02,150 | 因為第60條我剛剛看過 |
| 01:40:02,150 | 01:40:04,150 | 就是跟剛剛我們第 |
| 01:40:04,150 | 01:40:06,150 | 第三條的第19款的這些 |
| 01:40:06,150 | 01:40:08,150 | 定義天然菜 |
| 01:40:08,150 | 01:40:10,150 | 還要訂到這邊來 |
| 01:40:10,150 | 01:40:12,150 | 所以這邊就請 |
| 01:40:12,240 | 01:40:14,240 | 剛剛應該有說明過 |
| 01:40:14,240 | 01:40:16,240 | 對 都說過啦 |
| 01:40:16,420 | 01:40:18,420 | 還要再說明喔 |
| 01:40:21,060 | 01:40:23,060 | 第60條來 |
| 01:40:23,060 | 01:40:25,060 | 為什麼要保留 |
| 01:40:26,770 | 01:40:28,770 | 現在改啊 |
| 01:40:28,770 | 01:40:30,770 | 我要跟委員報告喔 |
| 01:40:30,700 | 01:40:32,700 | 我當然都知道 |
| 01:40:32,700 | 01:40:34,700 | 包括我們自己農業補給之下 |
| 01:40:34,700 | 01:40:36,700 | 一定是農民受到了一些天然災害 |
| 01:40:36,700 | 01:40:38,700 | 或您所關切的一些動物的影響的時候 |
| 01:40:38,700 | 01:40:40,700 | 一定要想辦法去協助 |
| 01:40:40,700 | 01:40:42,700 | 可是相對的法一定的時候 |
| 01:40:42,700 | 01:40:44,700 | 一定要他可執行性啦 |
| 01:40:44,700 | 01:40:46,700 | 那天然災害的部分是沒問題 |
| 01:40:46,700 | 01:40:48,700 | 我們很有經驗的 |
| 01:40:48,700 | 01:40:50,700 | 那天然災害導致的病蟲害的部分 |
| 01:40:50,700 | 01:40:52,700 | 我想我們也沒問題 |
| 01:40:52,700 | 01:40:54,700 | 可以去如果認定 |
| 01:40:54,700 | 01:40:56,700 | 但是唯一的就是 |
| 01:40:56,700 | 01:40:58,700 | 李委員提到動物性 |
| 01:40:58,700 | 01:41:00,700 | 特別是野生動物的部分 |
| 01:41:00,700 | 01:41:02,700 | 因為他的危害本身的樣態 |
| 01:41:02,700 | 01:41:04,700 | 跟他未來認定 |
| 01:41:04,700 | 01:41:06,700 | 這個我們大概已經花了兩個月的時間 |
| 01:41:06,700 | 01:41:08,700 | 在內部討論 |
| 01:41:08,700 | 01:41:10,700 | 也跟外界做溝通 |
| 01:41:10,700 | 01:41:12,700 | 還沒有辦法有一個很明確的認定的標準 |
| 01:41:12,700 | 01:41:14,700 | 因為沒有認定標準 |
| 01:41:14,700 | 01:41:16,700 | 就沒辦法執行啦 |
| 01:41:16,700 | 01:41:18,700 | 所以我認為這個部分 |
| 01:41:18,700 | 01:41:20,700 | 我們把天然災害所引起的這個 |
| 01:41:20,700 | 01:41:22,700 | 這個植物病蟲害的部分納入是OK的 |
| 01:41:22,700 | 01:41:24,700 | 但是如果把動物 |
| 01:41:24,700 | 01:41:26,700 | 野生動物進去的時候 |
| 01:41:26,700 | 01:41:28,700 | 那就會比較好 |
| 01:41:28,700 | 01:41:30,700 | 還有保育動物 |
| 01:41:30,700 | 01:41:32,700 | 因為有的唯一寫保育動物啦 |
| 01:41:32,700 | 01:41:34,700 | 那猴子不是保育類的喔 |
| 01:41:34,700 | 01:41:36,700 | 那就會有非常非常不同的動物出來了 |
| 01:41:36,700 | 01:41:38,700 | 所以這個部分我想 |
| 01:41:38,700 | 01:41:40,700 | 動物的部分是不是可以先不放 |
| 01:41:40,700 | 01:41:42,700 | 放在這個條文裡面 |
| 01:41:46,990 | 01:41:48,990 | 好 李一鯉委員 |
| 01:42:06,130 | 01:42:08,130 | 在什麼情況之下才會啟動這個救助 |
| 01:42:08,130 | 01:42:10,130 | 我們也請教過了很多農民 |
| 01:42:10,130 | 01:42:12,130 | 在座談會裡面 |
| 01:42:12,130 | 01:42:14,130 | 每個人講話都不一樣 |
| 01:42:15,540 | 01:42:17,540 | 他是單塊田看 |
| 01:42:17,540 | 01:42:19,540 | 還是普遍性的看 |
| 01:42:19,540 | 01:42:21,540 | 每一個農民的想法都不一樣 |
| 01:42:21,540 | 01:42:23,540 | 所以這個部分是非常 |
| 01:42:23,540 | 01:42:25,540 | 就是要聚集成一個 |
| 01:42:25,540 | 01:42:27,540 | 有共識而且可執行 |
| 01:42:27,540 | 01:42:29,540 | 我說法一定要可執行啦 |
| 01:42:29,540 | 01:42:31,540 | 那現階段這個部分 |
| 01:42:31,540 | 01:42:33,540 | 還真的是很難處理 我們還在努力當中 |
| 01:42:34,460 | 01:42:36,460 | 主席我建議好不好 |
| 01:42:36,460 | 01:42:38,460 | 因為你也找過專家 |
| 01:42:38,460 | 01:42:40,460 | 保育類的動物 |
| 01:42:40,460 | 01:42:42,460 | 不只是保育類 |
| 01:42:42,460 | 01:42:44,460 | 你剛剛講的還有猴子嘛 |
| 01:42:44,460 | 01:42:46,460 | 這些你都請專家研究過了 |
| 01:42:46,460 | 01:42:48,460 | 這個問題已經很久了 |
| 01:42:48,450 | 01:42:50,450 | 那可不可以一樣 |
| 01:42:50,450 | 01:42:52,450 | 一個月內你們研究出來 |
| 01:42:52,450 | 01:42:54,450 | 我們先保留你研究出來 |
| 01:42:54,830 | 01:42:56,830 | 一個月可以嗎 |
| 01:42:59,770 | 01:43:01,770 | 一個月 |
| 01:43:01,770 | 01:43:03,770 | 我剛才說的 |
| 01:43:03,770 | 01:43:05,770 | 像這個特別是比較重要的動物性的 |
| 01:43:05,770 | 01:43:07,770 | 危害我們一定要想辦法啟動 |
| 01:43:07,770 | 01:43:09,770 | 一個機制去救助 |
| 01:43:09,770 | 01:43:11,770 | 我已經承諾這個 但是 |
| 01:43:11,770 | 01:43:13,770 | 我的問題是我在執行面 |
| 01:43:13,770 | 01:43:15,770 | 還沒有辦法找到一個基準 |
| 01:43:15,770 | 01:43:17,770 | 是可以 |
| 01:43:17,770 | 01:43:19,770 | 這個一個月就動不到 |
| 01:43:19,770 | 01:43:21,770 | 這個基準有哪些動物會危害 |
| 01:43:21,770 | 01:43:23,770 | 這個都很明確了 |
| 01:43:23,770 | 01:43:25,770 | 農民都清楚哪些動物 |
| 01:43:25,770 | 01:43:27,770 | 專家也都清楚 |
| 01:43:27,770 | 01:43:29,770 | 這就是動物的危害 |
| 01:43:29,770 | 01:43:31,770 | 很難去計算 |
| 01:43:31,550 | 01:43:33,550 | 因為天才不是說你一陣子 |
| 01:43:33,550 | 01:43:35,550 | 把年齡水果 |
| 01:43:35,550 | 01:43:37,550 | 很要賠償 |
| 01:43:37,550 | 01:43:39,550 | 這個就沒完沒了 |
| 01:43:39,260 | 01:43:41,260 | 你們都會有專家在鑑定 |
| 01:43:41,260 | 01:43:43,260 | 都會去考核 |
| 01:43:44,700 | 01:43:46,700 | 這個就是我們有包括您講的 |
| 01:43:46,700 | 01:43:48,700 | 保育類動物 |
| 01:43:48,700 | 01:43:50,700 | 野生動物 |
| 01:43:50,700 | 01:43:52,700 | 那狗呢 |
| 01:43:52,020 | 01:43:54,020 | 因為也有一些地區不是被狗 |
| 01:43:54,020 | 01:43:56,020 | 所以他 |
| 01:43:56,020 | 01:43:58,020 | 通牌把列入來研究 |
| 01:43:58,020 | 01:44:00,020 | 每一個樣態是不一樣的 |
| 01:44:00,020 | 01:44:02,020 | 所以我說我們已經在做 |
| 01:44:02,020 | 01:44:04,020 | 但是一個月沒辦法把所有的動物 |
| 01:44:04,150 | 01:44:06,150 | 我覺得至少要三個月 |
| 01:44:06,300 | 01:44:08,300 | 我覺得至少要三個月才能夠 |
| 01:44:08,300 | 01:44:10,300 | 有一點可以去討論的 |
| 01:44:11,170 | 01:44:13,170 | 陳聰 |
| 01:44:33,130 | 01:44:35,130 | 危害的認定 |
| 01:44:35,130 | 01:44:37,130 | 栽損嘛 |
| 01:44:37,130 | 01:44:39,130 | 你講的是栽損 |
| 01:44:39,130 | 01:44:41,130 | 好趕快研究 |
| 01:44:41,130 | 01:44:43,130 | 兩個月時間 |
| 01:44:43,130 | 01:44:45,130 | 我覺得有困難 |
| 01:44:45,130 | 01:44:47,130 | 那你三個月一定要有結果出來 |
| 01:44:47,130 | 01:44:49,130 | 我上個月一定會有個版本給委員了解 |
| 01:44:49,130 | 01:44:51,130 | 我可以願意提一個專案報告來處理 |
| 01:44:51,130 | 01:44:53,130 | 陳聰 |
| 01:44:53,240 | 01:44:55,240 | 世界情形沒你說的那麼困難 |
| 01:44:56,380 | 01:44:58,380 | 你知道狗在這裡是從外圍先吃 |
| 01:44:58,380 | 01:45:00,380 | 吃飽了牠就不去了 |
| 01:45:00,380 | 01:45:02,380 | 那不飽再進來 |
| 01:45:02,380 | 01:45:04,380 | 所以我告訴你 |
| 01:45:04,380 | 01:45:06,380 | 我都有去看過 |
| 01:45:06,380 | 01:45:08,380 | 牠吃的話那水果是怎麼吃 |
| 01:45:08,380 | 01:45:10,380 | 大概排一排就丟在地下 |
| 01:45:10,380 | 01:45:12,380 | 排一排牠又不能帶回去 |
| 01:45:12,380 | 01:45:14,380 | 我告訴你牠是用困的啦 |
| 01:45:14,380 | 01:45:16,380 | 你跟農民你把我一隻一隻的 |
| 01:45:16,380 | 01:45:18,380 | 收出來有一樣一隻一隻的沒一樣 |
| 01:45:18,380 | 01:45:20,380 | 而且 |
| 01:45:20,380 | 01:45:22,380 | 活該的話喔 |
| 01:45:22,380 | 01:45:24,380 | 不是很大大概你圍完出來 |
| 01:45:24,380 | 01:45:26,380 | 你去投資會很累啦 |
| 01:45:26,380 | 01:45:28,380 | 但是也是有 |
| 01:45:28,380 | 01:45:30,380 | 其實這個地方跟你天然災害比起來 |
| 01:45:30,380 | 01:45:32,380 | 只有一點點你這樣去計較 |
| 01:45:32,380 | 01:45:34,380 | 那些 |
| 01:45:34,380 | 01:45:36,380 | 那是你挑戰的沒有要檢討 |
| 01:45:36,380 | 01:45:38,380 | 我告訴你 |
| 01:45:38,380 | 01:45:40,380 | 那是人家喔 |
| 01:45:40,380 | 01:45:42,380 | 抱歉告訴你保護動物 |
| 01:45:42,380 | 01:45:44,380 | 我來委員報告 |
| 01:45:44,380 | 01:45:46,380 | 我感覺你還兩個月 |
| 01:45:46,380 | 01:45:48,380 | 好啦給你兩個月啦 |
| 01:45:48,380 | 01:45:50,380 | 猴子真的也來明天來後天來 |
| 01:45:50,380 | 01:45:52,380 | 你第二十一條 |
| 01:45:52,380 | 01:45:54,380 | 有嗎 |
| 01:45:54,380 | 01:45:56,380 | 農民做家庭家庭 |
| 01:45:56,380 | 01:45:58,380 | 水產養殖 |
| 01:45:58,380 | 01:46:00,380 | 你用這條來就可以了 |
| 01:46:00,380 | 01:46:02,380 | 你說牠常常來 |
| 01:46:02,380 | 01:46:04,380 | 牠吃的話沒有那麼嚴重 |
| 01:46:04,940 | 01:46:06,940 | OK的 |
| 01:46:06,450 | 01:46:08,450 | 農民會受不了 |
| 01:46:08,450 | 01:46:10,450 | 受害的固定外圍的那幾個地區啊 |
| 01:46:12,690 | 01:46:14,690 | 我曾經去看猴海喔 |
| 01:46:14,690 | 01:46:16,690 | 牠是整封給你吞掉了喔 |
| 01:46:16,690 | 01:46:18,690 | 吞掉那個 |
| 01:46:18,690 | 01:46:20,690 | 那個很明顯你都很難去救 |
| 01:46:20,690 | 01:46:22,690 | 牠不是每一顆全部把你摘喔 |
| 01:46:22,690 | 01:46:24,690 | 牠這一顆把你摘一格 |
| 01:46:24,690 | 01:46:26,690 | 所以我們 |
| 01:46:26,690 | 01:46:28,690 | 在看這個東西的時候 |
| 01:46:28,690 | 01:46:30,690 | 至少要有個基準嘛 |
| 01:46:30,690 | 01:46:32,690 | 不能說一顆嘛 |
| 01:46:32,690 | 01:46:34,690 | 一顆也不會啦 |
| 01:46:34,690 | 01:46:36,690 | 一顆我們投小報就給農民了啦 |
| 01:46:36,690 | 01:46:38,690 | 我是擔心未來 |
| 01:46:38,690 | 01:46:40,690 | 公所在查勘的時候 |
| 01:46:40,690 | 01:46:42,690 | 沒有依據的時候 |
| 01:46:42,690 | 01:46:44,690 | 是沒有辦法執行的啦 |
| 01:46:44,690 | 01:46:46,690 | 楊瓊元委員在鄭天才委員之後 |
| 01:46:46,690 | 01:46:48,690 | 鍾嘉斌委員 |
| 01:46:48,780 | 01:46:50,780 | 這個喔 |
| 01:46:50,780 | 01:46:52,780 | 因為我一直在強調說 |
| 01:46:52,780 | 01:46:54,780 | 我們為什麼一直說 |
| 01:46:53,270 | 01:46:55,270 | 這個天然災害損失 |
| 01:46:55,270 | 01:46:57,270 | 以往沒有說 |
| 01:46:57,270 | 01:46:59,270 | 猴子沒有加入在裡面 |
| 01:46:59,270 | 01:47:01,270 | 動物 |
| 01:47:01,270 | 01:47:03,270 | 我們現在意識到動物 |
| 01:47:03,270 | 01:47:05,270 | 牠跟人類越來越親越來越密切 |
| 01:47:05,270 | 01:47:07,270 | 進行啊什麼越來越密切 |
| 01:47:07,270 | 01:47:09,270 | 所以我們發覺到牠也有破壞 |
| 01:47:10,000 | 01:47:12,000 | 因為有破壞的情況之下 |
| 01:47:12,000 | 01:47:14,000 | 我覺得我們討論這個議題 |
| 01:47:14,000 | 01:47:16,000 | 應該是結果論 |
| 01:47:16,380 | 01:47:18,380 | 不是哪一種動物 |
| 01:47:18,380 | 01:47:20,380 | 不是牠保育不保育 |
| 01:47:20,380 | 01:47:22,380 | 我們應該是在保護農民 |
| 01:47:22,380 | 01:47:24,380 | 牠的農損 |
| 01:47:24,380 | 01:47:26,380 | 比如說我們的天然災害 |
| 01:47:26,380 | 01:47:28,380 | 你超過了20% |
| 01:47:28,380 | 01:47:30,380 | 我們都要去計算嘛 |
| 01:47:30,380 | 01:47:32,380 | 你講的有一個標準嘛 |
| 01:47:32,380 | 01:47:34,380 | 那牠就可以公布這個現金救助了嘛 |
| 01:47:34,380 | 01:47:36,380 | 那你應該是 |
| 01:47:36,380 | 01:47:38,380 | 定一個標準 |
| 01:47:38,380 | 01:47:40,380 | 到底是標準要多少 |
| 01:47:40,380 | 01:47:42,380 | 你要比照 |
| 01:47:42,380 | 01:47:44,380 | 天然災害的這個20% |
| 01:47:44,380 | 01:47:46,380 | 還是因為動物跟 |
| 01:47:47,440 | 01:47:49,440 | 整個氣候又不一樣 |
| 01:47:49,440 | 01:47:51,440 | 牠是有區塊的問題啊 |
| 01:47:51,440 | 01:47:53,440 | 牠不是整區的問題啊 |
| 01:47:53,440 | 01:47:55,440 | 牠集中在那裡啊 |
| 01:47:55,440 | 01:47:57,440 | 所以你應該是 |
| 01:47:57,440 | 01:47:59,440 | 用農損的損害 |
| 01:47:59,440 | 01:48:01,440 | 去來定你的標準 |
| 01:48:01,440 | 01:48:03,440 | 我們在地方政府的時候 |
| 01:48:03,440 | 01:48:05,440 | 各公所 |
| 01:48:05,440 | 01:48:07,440 | 區公所也好 |
| 01:48:07,440 | 01:48:09,440 | 鄉鎮公所 |
| 01:48:09,440 | 01:48:11,440 | 牠才有所依歸 |
| 01:48:11,440 | 01:48:13,440 | 你要定的是這個 |
| 01:48:13,440 | 01:48:15,440 | 而不是今天定猴子明天定什麼 |
| 01:48:15,440 | 01:48:17,440 | 牠一直跑出來啊 |
| 01:48:17,440 | 01:48:19,440 | 螞蟻現在很嚴重啊 |
| 01:48:19,440 | 01:48:21,440 | 對不對 小鳥也很嚴重啊 |
| 01:48:21,440 | 01:48:23,440 | 小鳥跟你那裡吃一口 |
| 01:48:23,440 | 01:48:25,440 | 那裡吃一口 你是整顆都不硬了捏 |
| 01:48:25,440 | 01:48:27,440 | 就像你說的啊 |
| 01:48:27,390 | 01:48:29,390 | 咖哇牠是整個自己吞吞去啊捏 |
| 01:48:30,740 | 01:48:32,740 | 對不對 你是應該 |
| 01:48:32,740 | 01:48:34,740 | 是定牠的農損 |
| 01:48:34,740 | 01:48:36,740 | 的一個標準 我個人 |
| 01:48:36,740 | 01:48:38,740 | 具體跟你建議你要定是這個 |
| 01:48:38,740 | 01:48:40,740 | 你把複雜的事情要 |
| 01:48:40,740 | 01:48:42,740 | 簡單化 因為你的目標 |
| 01:48:42,740 | 01:48:44,740 | 鎖定目標 我就是要照顧農民 |
| 01:48:45,310 | 01:48:47,310 | 我的目標要照顧農民 |
| 01:48:47,310 | 01:48:49,310 | 要協助農民 |
| 01:48:49,310 | 01:48:51,310 | 補償也是補償農民 |
| 01:48:51,480 | 01:48:53,480 | 是這個概念 |
| 01:48:53,480 | 01:48:55,480 | 那第二個是我自己所提的 |
| 01:48:55,480 | 01:48:57,480 | 我們現在你 |
| 01:48:57,480 | 01:48:59,480 | 包括了這個 |
| 01:48:59,480 | 01:49:01,480 | 現金救助的部分的那個金額 |
| 01:49:02,940 | 01:49:04,940 | 對不對 我每一年都一直 |
| 01:49:04,940 | 01:49:06,940 | 跟你在討論這個問題 |
| 01:49:06,940 | 01:49:08,940 | 你跟他把它定下來啊 |
| 01:49:08,940 | 01:49:10,940 | 你什麼時間 依照消費者指數 |
| 01:49:10,940 | 01:49:12,940 | 比較 |
| 01:49:12,940 | 01:49:14,940 | 然後你來公告知啊 |
| 01:49:14,940 | 01:49:16,940 | 當然本級的提案是說 |
| 01:49:16,940 | 01:49:18,940 | 如果是麻辣式的那就不要動 |
| 01:49:18,940 | 01:49:20,940 | 啊那普拉斯的你當然 |
| 01:49:20,940 | 01:49:22,940 | 就要依照那個比例來做調整啊 |
| 01:49:22,940 | 01:49:24,940 | 要不然每一次我們 |
| 01:49:24,940 | 01:49:26,940 | 所有的委員 至少我個人 |
| 01:49:26,940 | 01:49:28,940 | 每一次都萬一碰到 |
| 01:49:28,940 | 01:49:30,940 | 這個事情 最好不要碰到 |
| 01:49:30,940 | 01:49:32,940 | 不可能不碰到 |
| 01:49:32,940 | 01:49:34,940 | 每一年都要跟你討論這個 |
| 01:49:34,940 | 01:49:36,940 | 現在入不敷出啦 |
| 01:49:36,940 | 01:49:38,940 | 這個金額要怎麼樣 |
| 01:49:38,940 | 01:49:40,940 | 長久沒有調整 不可能啊 |
| 01:49:40,940 | 01:49:42,940 | 因為我們的農業成本越來越增加 |
| 01:49:42,940 | 01:49:44,940 | 所以要明定下來啊 |
| 01:49:44,940 | 01:49:46,940 | 這個是公道啊 |
| 01:49:47,460 | 01:49:49,460 | 謝謝委員喔 我剛才說的喔 |
| 01:49:49,460 | 01:49:51,460 | 我們現在最困擾就是定那個基準 |
| 01:49:51,460 | 01:49:53,460 | 那還有一件事情喔 |
| 01:49:53,460 | 01:49:55,460 | 就是他不像颱風 |
| 01:49:55,460 | 01:49:57,460 | 完了以後這一季我們就補補助了 |
| 01:49:57,460 | 01:49:59,460 | 因為他可能這個月來 |
| 01:49:59,780 | 01:50:01,780 | 他下個月又來 |
| 01:50:01,780 | 01:50:03,780 | 然後他下個禮拜又來 |
| 01:50:03,780 | 01:50:05,780 | 那樣連續性的部分我們怎麼樣去計算 |
| 01:50:05,780 | 01:50:07,780 | 所以我們現在正在 |
| 01:50:08,920 | 01:50:10,920 | 討論這個東西 |
| 01:50:38,920 | 01:50:40,920 | 所以我們現在正在 |
| 01:50:40,920 | 01:50:42,920 | 討論這個東西 |
| 01:50:42,920 | 01:50:44,920 | 所以我們現在正在 |
| 01:50:44,920 | 01:50:46,920 | 討論這個東西 |
| 01:50:46,920 | 01:50:48,920 | 所以我們現在正在 |
| 01:50:48,920 | 01:50:50,920 | 討論這個東西 |
| 01:50:50,920 | 01:50:52,920 | 所以我們現在正在 |
| 01:50:52,920 | 01:50:54,920 | 討論這個東西 |
| 01:50:54,920 | 01:50:56,920 | 所以我們現在正在 |
| 01:50:56,920 | 01:50:58,920 | 討論這個東西 |
| 01:50:58,920 | 01:51:00,920 | 所以我們現在正在 |
| 01:51:00,920 | 01:51:02,920 | 討論這個東西 |
| 01:51:02,920 | 01:51:04,920 | 所以我們現在正在 |
| 01:51:04,920 | 01:51:06,920 | 討論這個東西 |
| 01:50:56,090 | 01:50:58,090 | 我那個金額你們在講啊 |
| 01:50:58,090 | 01:51:00,090 | 我那個金額你們在講啊 |
| 01:51:00,090 | 01:51:02,090 | 金額的部分喔 |
| 01:51:02,090 | 01:51:04,090 | 我給委員報告喔 |
| 01:51:04,090 | 01:51:06,090 | 我應該給今年大幅調整的資料給您 |
| 01:51:06,090 | 01:51:08,090 | 我們也看到了 |
| 01:51:08,090 | 01:51:10,090 | 現在天然災害 |
| 01:51:10,090 | 01:51:12,090 | 我們每一年調一次 |
| 01:51:12,000 | 01:51:14,000 | 每一年調一次 |
| 01:51:14,730 | 01:51:16,730 | 20%平均拉到25% |
| 01:51:16,730 | 01:51:18,730 | 20%平均拉到25% |
| 01:51:18,730 | 01:51:20,730 | 那第三個是有一些多年生的果樹 |
| 01:51:20,730 | 01:51:22,730 | 那第三個是有一些多年生的果樹 |
| 01:51:22,730 | 01:51:24,730 | 它可以符合第二次災害的時候 |
| 01:51:24,730 | 01:51:26,730 | 所以我們有很多 |
| 01:51:26,730 | 01:51:28,730 | 您看得到的我們也看到了 |
| 01:51:28,730 | 01:51:30,730 | 所以我們一直在處理這個區塊 |
| 01:51:30,730 | 01:51:32,730 | 而且是每一年調整的部分 |
| 01:51:32,730 | 01:51:34,730 | 那很好啊每一年本席也是每一年 |
| 01:51:34,730 | 01:51:36,730 | 那你現在所說的 |
| 01:51:36,730 | 01:51:38,730 | 跟本席的提案 |
| 01:51:38,730 | 01:51:40,730 | 讓他明文化 |
| 01:51:40,730 | 01:51:42,730 | 那更好啊 |
| 01:51:42,730 | 01:51:44,730 | 但是你不能用CPI |
| 01:51:44,730 | 01:51:46,730 | 因為農業的生產層面 |
| 01:51:46,730 | 01:51:48,730 | 不會每一項都是根據CPI在跑啊 |
| 01:51:50,860 | 01:51:52,860 | CPI是消費指數 |
| 01:51:52,860 | 01:51:54,860 | 那我們算的天然災害救助 |
| 01:51:54,860 | 01:51:56,860 | 是用農業的生產成本 |
| 01:51:56,860 | 01:51:58,860 | 所以我們會調查農業生產成本 |
| 01:51:58,860 | 01:52:00,860 | 它跟CPI是沒有直接的關係 |
| 01:52:02,790 | 01:52:04,790 | 怎麼會沒有直接的關係 |
| 01:52:04,790 | 01:52:06,790 | 你調查你的農業成本 |
| 01:52:06,790 | 01:52:08,790 | 本來就是你的本業要做 |
| 01:52:08,790 | 01:52:10,790 | 農業成本一定會影響到 |
| 01:52:10,790 | 01:52:12,790 | 消費端 |
| 01:52:12,790 | 01:52:14,790 | 你不可能種起來不賣啊 |
| 01:52:14,790 | 01:52:16,790 | 我有的成本我高成本 |
| 01:52:16,790 | 01:52:18,790 | 當然我 |
| 01:52:18,790 | 01:52:20,790 | 所得獲取 |
| 01:52:20,790 | 01:52:22,790 | 會減少也獲取會增加 |
| 01:52:22,790 | 01:52:24,790 | 對不對 |
| 01:52:24,790 | 01:52:26,790 | 所以你要你現在做的好 |
| 01:52:26,790 | 01:52:28,790 | 你要把你的成本 |
| 01:52:28,790 | 01:52:30,790 | 因為每一年本席的意見就是說 |
| 01:52:30,790 | 01:52:32,790 | 你不要每一年我們講啊 |
| 01:52:32,790 | 01:52:34,790 | 你才來調整 |
| 01:52:34,790 | 01:52:36,790 | 我上任以後是每一年都調喔 |
| 01:52:38,220 | 01:52:40,220 | 你要去把它計算出來 |
| 01:52:40,220 | 01:52:42,220 | 對我們生產成本每一年都會重新計算 |
| 01:52:42,220 | 01:52:44,220 | 重新去調整 |
| 01:52:44,360 | 01:52:46,360 | 我要做天才為 |
| 01:52:46,550 | 01:52:48,550 | 好有關這個第60條 |
| 01:52:48,550 | 01:52:50,550 | 討論了很久 |
| 01:52:50,550 | 01:52:52,550 | 事實上是從剛才 |
| 01:52:53,220 | 01:52:55,220 | 這個前面的那個 |
| 01:52:55,220 | 01:52:57,220 | 第19款的時候 |
| 01:52:57,220 | 01:52:59,220 | 就開始討論了 |
| 01:52:59,340 | 01:53:01,340 | 這個 |
| 01:53:00,930 | 01:53:02,930 | 農業不好 |
| 01:53:02,920 | 01:53:04,920 | 要特別去 |
| 01:53:05,940 | 01:53:07,940 | 重視 |
| 01:53:07,510 | 01:53:09,510 | 立法委員所提的提案 |
| 01:53:10,360 | 01:53:12,360 | 我們就講這個 |
| 01:53:12,880 | 01:53:14,880 | 野生兔保義 |
| 01:53:15,000 | 01:53:17,000 | 所保育的這些動物 |
| 01:53:17,420 | 01:53:19,420 | 不只是我們李一林委員提 |
| 01:53:19,420 | 01:53:21,420 | 其他委員也都有提 |
| 01:53:25,180 | 01:53:27,180 | 事實上是產生了這個問題 |
| 01:53:27,960 | 01:53:29,960 | 因為法律 |
| 01:53:30,430 | 01:53:32,430 | 法律保障保育的這些動物 |
| 01:53:34,360 | 01:53:36,360 | 所以這些動物 |
| 01:53:36,360 | 01:53:38,360 | 他到底要吃啊 |
| 01:53:38,160 | 01:53:40,160 | 他當然要吃他當然就吃這些農作物 |
| 01:53:40,160 | 01:53:42,160 | 就方便了 |
| 01:53:43,350 | 01:53:45,350 | 有這樣的一個情形之下 |
| 01:53:46,410 | 01:53:48,410 | 所以我們現在就是要 |
| 01:53:48,410 | 01:53:50,410 | 要去補助他 |
| 01:53:50,410 | 01:53:52,410 | 救助他 |
| 01:53:52,550 | 01:53:54,550 | 要去補助或救助 |
| 01:53:55,230 | 01:53:57,230 | 或是其他的 |
| 01:53:56,970 | 01:53:58,970 | 方式 |
| 01:53:58,140 | 01:54:00,140 | 來去給他低利貸款還是什麼 |
| 01:54:01,190 | 01:54:03,190 | 這裡面授權 |
| 01:54:03,190 | 01:54:05,190 | 第一項就授權的很清楚 |
| 01:54:05,160 | 01:54:07,160 | 然後這個要怎麼去補助 |
| 01:54:07,620 | 01:54:09,620 | 好 |
| 01:54:08,950 | 01:54:10,950 | 這個補助授權 |
| 01:54:10,950 | 01:54:12,950 | 也是授權裡面的補助辦法 |
| 01:54:14,150 | 01:54:16,150 | 所以你剛剛講的那些 |
| 01:54:16,330 | 01:54:18,330 | 都可以在補助辦法去思考 |
| 01:54:19,530 | 01:54:21,530 | 到底是要 |
| 01:54:21,530 | 01:54:23,530 | 你剛剛講說要一顆還是什麼 |
| 01:54:23,530 | 01:54:25,530 | 還是要等個面積 |
| 01:54:24,850 | 01:54:26,850 | 你就在補助辦法裡面去思考 |
| 01:54:26,850 | 01:54:28,850 | 怎麼樣讓地方 |
| 01:54:28,850 | 01:54:30,850 | 政府在執行的時候 |
| 01:54:31,870 | 01:54:33,870 | 能夠方便能夠快 |
| 01:54:35,180 | 01:54:37,180 | 最重要的就是說 |
| 01:54:37,640 | 01:54:39,640 | 讓農民因為 |
| 01:54:40,360 | 01:54:42,360 | 國家的法律 |
| 01:54:42,150 | 01:54:44,150 | 保護了這些 |
| 01:54:46,180 | 01:54:48,180 | 所以應該要補償 |
| 01:54:48,180 | 01:54:50,180 | 要補助 |
| 01:54:49,350 | 01:54:51,350 | 要救助 |
| 01:54:50,950 | 01:54:52,950 | 這個都是合理的 |
| 01:54:53,100 | 01:54:55,100 | 所以這個部分 |
| 01:54:55,100 | 01:54:57,100 | 我還是很誠心的希望農業部 |
| 01:54:58,630 | 01:55:00,630 | 能夠救 |
| 01:55:00,130 | 01:55:02,130 | 因為好幾個的版本 |
| 01:55:02,380 | 01:55:04,380 | 你們綜合 |
| 01:55:04,660 | 01:55:06,660 | 包括剛才講的第19款 |
| 01:55:06,660 | 01:55:08,660 | 也一併納入 |
| 01:55:08,660 | 01:55:10,660 | 看怎麼樣去 |
| 01:55:10,660 | 01:55:12,660 | 修得會更完善 |
| 01:55:13,300 | 01:55:15,300 | 應該是朝這個方向 |
| 01:55:15,300 | 01:55:17,300 | 而不是全部計劃 |
| 01:55:19,220 | 01:55:21,220 | 中嘉賓委員在陳超明委員 |
| 01:55:23,810 | 01:55:25,810 | 好 |
| 01:55:25,330 | 01:55:27,330 | 謝謝 |
| 01:55:26,930 | 01:55:28,930 | 那個 |
| 01:55:28,050 | 01:55:30,050 | 部長我是覺得部長 |
| 01:55:29,990 | 01:55:31,990 | 我們在面對委員的提案的時候 |
| 01:55:31,990 | 01:55:33,990 | 其實要了解 |
| 01:55:33,990 | 01:55:35,990 | 委員的提案一定有他所本 |
| 01:55:36,420 | 01:55:38,420 | 那可能有些問題的釐清 |
| 01:55:38,420 | 01:55:40,420 | 在法治化的分類 |
| 01:55:40,420 | 01:55:42,420 | 我們可以予以說明 |
| 01:55:42,420 | 01:55:44,420 | 但是委員絕對不會 |
| 01:55:44,420 | 01:55:46,420 | 要去一定是反應民眾的心聲 |
| 01:55:46,420 | 01:55:48,420 | 那因此我們也請行政機關 |
| 01:55:48,420 | 01:55:50,420 | 要從善如流 |
| 01:55:50,420 | 01:55:52,420 | 在我看來 |
| 01:55:52,420 | 01:55:54,420 | 旅委員這個提案 |
| 01:55:54,420 | 01:55:56,420 | 老實說啦 |
| 01:55:56,420 | 01:55:58,420 | 我也沒有覺得有什麼 |
| 01:55:58,420 | 01:56:00,420 | 摯愛難行之處啦 |
| 01:56:00,420 | 01:56:02,420 | 但是我們剛剛把一些問題給混淆了 |
| 01:56:02,420 | 01:56:04,420 | 我們本來是從第3條 |
| 01:56:04,420 | 01:56:06,420 | 跑到所謂的天然災害 |
| 01:56:06,420 | 01:56:08,420 | 那剛剛有人提到說 |
| 01:56:08,420 | 01:56:10,420 | 那天然災害到底要從哪一個法律 |
| 01:56:10,420 | 01:56:12,420 | 來援引 |
| 01:56:12,260 | 01:56:14,260 | 災防法沒有天然災害這個規類 |
| 01:56:15,700 | 01:56:17,700 | 災防法只有災害的類型 |
| 01:56:17,700 | 01:56:19,700 | 但是他的災害類型 |
| 01:56:19,700 | 01:56:21,700 | 跟我們這個天然災害救助辦法 |
| 01:56:23,210 | 01:56:25,210 | 天然災害是規定的比較詳細 |
| 01:56:25,210 | 01:56:27,210 | 所以當委員在關心 |
| 01:56:27,210 | 01:56:29,210 | 農民受天然災害的時候 |
| 01:56:29,210 | 01:56:31,210 | 他當然會去援引 |
| 01:56:31,210 | 01:56:33,210 | 我們的事情系 |
| 01:56:33,210 | 01:56:35,210 | 就是我們天然災害救助辦法裡面的項目 |
| 01:56:35,210 | 01:56:37,210 | 不然如果回到災防法 |
| 01:56:37,210 | 01:56:39,210 | 我這把問題不是要發散 |
| 01:56:39,210 | 01:56:41,210 | 但是災防法裡面農業部 |
| 01:56:41,210 | 01:56:43,210 | 要負責的什麼呢 |
| 01:56:43,210 | 01:56:45,210 | 農業部負責的有寒害 |
| 01:56:44,510 | 01:56:46,510 | 那請問 |
| 01:56:45,740 | 01:56:47,740 | 含害有在我們目前災防法的災害類型嗎 |
| 01:56:49,400 | 01:56:51,400 | 沒有啊 |
| 01:56:51,210 | 01:56:53,210 | 含害土石流 |
| 01:56:53,210 | 01:56:55,210 | 大規模的崩塌災害 |
| 01:56:55,210 | 01:56:57,210 | 森林火災 |
| 01:56:57,480 | 01:56:59,480 | 動植物的疫災 |
| 01:56:59,540 | 01:57:01,540 | 這些是寫在 |
| 01:57:01,540 | 01:57:03,540 | 那不是天然災害 |
| 01:57:03,540 | 01:57:05,540 | 所以我就是說為什麼談天然災害 |
| 01:57:05,540 | 01:57:07,540 | 我們不適合去援引災防法 |
| 01:57:07,540 | 01:57:09,540 | 所以請部長你不要焦慮 |
| 01:57:09,540 | 01:57:11,540 | 不要急 |
| 01:57:11,050 | 01:57:13,050 | 我們在講的很清楚 |
| 01:57:13,050 | 01:57:15,050 | 至少我的邏輯很清楚 |
| 01:57:15,050 | 01:57:17,050 | 我現在就說如果援引災防法 |
| 01:57:17,050 | 01:57:19,050 | 目前的這些條項不是援引災防法 |
| 01:57:19,340 | 01:57:21,340 | 不是援引災防法 |
| 01:57:21,340 | 01:57:23,340 | 災防法也不適合對於農作的天然災害來援引 |
| 01:57:25,230 | 01:57:27,230 | 這點是很清楚的 |
| 01:57:27,230 | 01:57:29,230 | 所以不要急著去反駁委員的意見 |
| 01:57:29,230 | 01:57:31,230 | 我們再告訴你釐清問題 |
| 01:57:31,270 | 01:57:33,270 | 災防法裡面的災害類型 |
| 01:57:33,270 | 01:57:35,270 | 在前條它有寫 |
| 01:57:34,930 | 01:57:36,930 | 然後如果真的要談到農業部的職責 |
| 01:57:36,930 | 01:57:38,930 | 就我剛剛講的那些 |
| 01:57:38,930 | 01:57:40,930 | 那些也不在 |
| 01:57:40,820 | 01:57:42,820 | 災防法當中的用詞的災害項目當中 |
| 01:57:44,610 | 01:57:46,610 | 有啦 |
| 01:57:46,300 | 01:57:48,300 | 含害、土石流、大規模的崩塌災害 |
| 01:57:48,300 | 01:57:50,300 | 這些才會屬於到農業部 |
| 01:57:50,300 | 01:57:52,300 | 但是這些 |
| 01:57:52,300 | 01:57:54,300 | 有大規模的崩塌 |
| 01:57:54,300 | 01:57:56,300 | 不見得是天然災害 |
| 01:57:56,300 | 01:57:58,300 | 所以農業部你們太太 |
| 01:57:58,300 | 01:58:00,300 | 盡量去做辦法的確把天然災害 |
| 01:58:00,300 | 01:58:02,300 | 定義的比較符合農業 |
| 01:58:02,300 | 01:58:04,300 | 經營所遇到的情況 |
| 01:58:04,300 | 01:58:06,300 | 所以你們應該要去支持 |
| 01:58:06,300 | 01:58:08,300 | 李玉琳委員 |
| 01:58:08,300 | 01:58:10,300 | 把所謂的農法條例當中的天然災害 |
| 01:58:10,300 | 01:58:12,300 | 它的定義 |
| 01:58:12,300 | 01:58:14,300 | 這些項目你們實施以來 |
| 01:58:14,960 | 01:58:16,960 | 有沒有增加 |
| 01:58:16,960 | 01:58:18,960 | 有沒有減少 |
| 01:58:18,740 | 01:58:20,740 | 你們的天然災害救助辦法 |
| 01:58:20,740 | 01:58:22,740 | 定出來之後 |
| 01:58:22,740 | 01:58:24,740 | 這些都已經涵蓋了 |
| 01:58:24,740 | 01:58:26,740 | 那麼委員主張把執法的天然災害定義 |
| 01:58:26,740 | 01:58:28,740 | 寫在母帽裡面 |
| 01:58:28,740 | 01:58:30,740 | 並沒有自愛難行啦 |
| 01:58:30,740 | 01:58:32,740 | 所以你剛剛講的邏輯 |
| 01:58:32,740 | 01:58:34,740 | 有一點不能接受 |
| 01:58:34,740 | 01:58:36,740 | 你說你有第二項 |
| 01:58:36,740 | 01:58:38,740 | 其他 |
| 01:58:35,760 | 01:58:37,760 | 專案認定 |
| 01:58:37,760 | 01:58:39,760 | 母帽這樣寫沒有妨礙到你們 |
| 01:58:39,760 | 01:58:41,760 | 救助辦法去專案認定 |
| 01:58:42,090 | 01:58:44,090 | 所以不要因為我們行政官僚 |
| 01:58:44,090 | 01:58:46,090 | 千萬不要因為說我們委員的提案 |
| 01:58:46,090 | 01:58:48,090 | 跟你們意見不一樣 |
| 01:58:48,090 | 01:58:50,090 | 你們就把我們的意見打成說 |
| 01:58:50,090 | 01:58:52,090 | 這個是不需要的 |
| 01:58:52,090 | 01:58:54,090 | 法的體力獲取委員的本意 |
| 01:58:54,090 | 01:58:56,090 | 跟法的體力有些出入 |
| 01:58:56,090 | 01:58:58,090 | 但是我們本意是好的 |
| 01:58:58,090 | 01:59:00,090 | 所以李玉琳委員這裡面把天然災害裡面 |
| 01:59:00,090 | 01:59:02,090 | 援引你們救助辦法當中 |
| 01:59:02,090 | 01:59:04,090 | 強烈 |
| 01:59:04,090 | 01:59:06,090 | 所以你會告訴我說 |
| 01:59:06,090 | 01:59:08,090 | 有些災害以後可能會沒有 |
| 01:59:08,090 | 01:59:10,090 | 你定在母法 |
| 01:59:08,890 | 01:59:10,890 | 在後面已經不見了我母法有沒有妨礙 |
| 01:59:11,500 | 01:59:13,500 | 那 |
| 01:59:12,280 | 01:59:14,280 | 項目有跑出新的類型 |
| 01:59:14,280 | 01:59:16,280 | 也不影響啊 |
| 01:59:16,280 | 01:59:18,280 | 因為你們還有專案認定嘛 |
| 01:59:17,830 | 01:59:19,830 | 所以不要一味的去排斥委員 |
| 01:59:19,830 | 01:59:21,830 | 基於民眾需要 |
| 01:59:21,830 | 01:59:23,830 | 所反應的這些問題 |
| 01:59:23,790 | 01:59:25,790 | 第二項 |
| 01:59:24,870 | 01:59:26,870 | 剛剛把問題搞混了 |
| 01:59:26,870 | 01:59:28,870 | 委員的辦法寫的是 |
| 01:59:28,770 | 01:59:30,770 | 野生動物保護法 |
| 01:59:30,770 | 01:59:32,770 | 鎖定保育類野生動物 |
| 01:59:32,770 | 01:59:34,770 | 剛剛委員在提的哪一項 |
| 01:59:34,980 | 01:59:36,980 | 受害是屬於保育類野生動物 |
| 01:59:36,980 | 01:59:38,980 | 沒有嘛 |
| 01:59:38,980 | 01:59:40,980 | 台灣名牌是不是不是嘛 |
| 01:59:40,980 | 01:59:42,980 | 梅花鹿是不是不是嘛 |
| 01:59:42,980 | 01:59:44,980 | 更不要說綠烈溪了 |
| 01:59:44,980 | 01:59:46,980 | 現在我們遇到的各種的受害 |
| 01:59:46,980 | 01:59:48,980 | 其實綠烈溪應該 |
| 01:59:48,980 | 01:59:50,980 | 不知道算不算受害 |
| 01:59:50,980 | 01:59:52,980 | 他是爬蟲類啦 |
| 01:59:52,980 | 01:59:54,980 | 好這些呂委員的提案當中 |
| 01:59:54,980 | 01:59:56,980 | 為什麼要請你們針對 |
| 01:59:56,980 | 01:59:58,980 | 野包法的保育類野生動物 |
| 01:59:58,980 | 02:00:00,980 | 所造成的損害去對農民 |
| 02:00:00,980 | 02:00:02,980 | 視同天然災害的救助辦法去 |
| 02:00:02,980 | 02:00:04,980 | 補償 為什麼 |
| 02:00:04,690 | 02:00:06,690 | 因為野包法是你們負責的啊 |
| 02:00:06,970 | 02:00:08,970 | 野包法的保育類野生動物是你們定義的 |
| 02:00:08,970 | 02:00:10,970 | 你們林保署在這裡嘛 |
| 02:00:10,970 | 02:00:12,970 | 就是你農業部定義的嘛 |
| 02:00:12,970 | 02:00:14,970 | 農業部基於整個國家 |
| 02:00:14,970 | 02:00:16,970 | 負責你們機關的任務 |
| 02:00:16,970 | 02:00:18,970 | 要對整個大自然的自然生態 |
| 02:00:18,970 | 02:00:20,970 | 這些野生動物要保育 |
| 02:00:20,970 | 02:00:22,970 | 他病因絕種要保育 |
| 02:00:22,970 | 02:00:24,970 | 那基於保育是基於整個社會的公法意 |
| 02:00:24,970 | 02:00:26,970 | 但是當公法意跟市法意 |
| 02:00:26,970 | 02:00:28,970 | 有侵犯的時候 |
| 02:00:28,970 | 02:00:30,970 | 你要補償嘛 |
| 02:00:30,970 | 02:00:32,970 | 假如說今天梅花鹿是我們要保育的野生動物 |
| 02:00:32,970 | 02:00:34,970 | 要絕種了 |
| 02:00:34,970 | 02:00:36,970 | 我們農民種的黑豆被他啃食了 |
| 02:00:36,970 | 02:00:38,970 | 甚至造成我們肯定國家公園 |
| 02:00:38,970 | 02:00:40,970 | 那些稀有的林相 |
| 02:00:40,970 | 02:00:42,970 | 被他啃食了 |
| 02:00:44,330 | 02:00:46,330 | 那你要怎麼辦 |
| 02:00:46,330 | 02:00:48,330 | 兩邊都要保育啊 |
| 02:00:48,080 | 02:00:50,080 | 那當然你們野保法當中 |
| 02:00:50,080 | 02:00:52,080 | 為什麼對保有不要的野生動物 |
| 02:00:52,080 | 02:00:54,080 | 跟農民的衝突 |
| 02:00:54,080 | 02:00:56,080 | 很多是來自於棲地嘛 |
| 02:00:55,620 | 02:00:57,620 | 可能他這個棲地縮小 |
| 02:00:57,620 | 02:00:59,620 | 以至於病因絕種 |
| 02:00:59,620 | 02:01:01,620 | 你要復育 |
| 02:01:01,620 | 02:01:03,620 | 那他復育之後他的棲地不夠 |
| 02:01:03,620 | 02:01:05,620 | 他就要往外擴張 |
| 02:01:05,620 | 02:01:07,620 | 擴張就進入到農民的已開發地區 |
| 02:01:07,620 | 02:01:09,620 | 那如果你們認為為了要讓他繼續生存下去 |
| 02:01:09,620 | 02:01:11,620 | 難免會侵犯到農民已經開發的地區 |
| 02:01:11,620 | 02:01:13,620 | 那當然要給農民補償嘛 |
| 02:01:14,220 | 02:01:18,220 | 不然的話你就是限制到棲地不要侵犯到農民已開發土地嘛 |
| 02:01:18,220 | 02:01:20,220 | 這個是野生類的保育動物 |
| 02:01:20,220 | 02:01:24,220 | 他的棲地跟農民已開發的農業用地之間的衝突 |
| 02:01:24,220 | 02:01:26,220 | 這個衝突是農業部可以調試的 |
| 02:01:27,150 | 02:01:29,150 | 所以農業部要去對這個部分進行調試 |
| 02:01:29,150 | 02:01:31,150 | 要不你就認為這個已經很多了 |
| 02:01:31,150 | 02:01:33,150 | 沒包爐很多了不用保育了 |
| 02:01:33,150 | 02:01:35,150 | 那農民可能怎麼處理 |
| 02:01:35,310 | 02:01:37,310 | 農民就可以補砂嘛 |
| 02:01:37,240 | 02:01:39,240 | 那你補砂動保團又抗議 |
| 02:01:39,240 | 02:01:41,240 | 動保團也搞不出這是保育類 |
| 02:01:41,240 | 02:01:43,240 | 他已經富裕到不需要保育了 |
| 02:01:43,630 | 02:01:45,630 | 澳洲的袋鼠都有在補砂 |
| 02:01:46,370 | 02:01:48,370 | 有沒有 有嘛 |
| 02:01:47,700 | 02:01:49,700 | 那澳洲的袋鼠是不是袋鼠說很可愛 |
| 02:01:49,700 | 02:01:50,700 | 澳洲的象徵 |
| 02:01:50,700 | 02:01:52,700 | 那澳洲政府有禁止農民去補砂嗎 |
| 02:01:53,620 | 02:01:57,620 | 也是因為為了農民的農業設施的農業的使用 |
| 02:01:57,620 | 02:02:02,620 | 他也開放給農民去限制這些已經不是保育類的野生動物 |
| 02:02:02,620 | 02:02:03,620 | 一定的數量 |
| 02:02:04,830 | 02:02:06,830 | 那農民現在是不知道要怎麼搞 |
| 02:02:06,830 | 02:02:08,830 | 可以啊 |
| 02:02:08,830 | 02:02:10,830 | 可以但是農民有沒有事 |
| 02:02:10,830 | 02:02:12,830 | 台灣是槍支管制的國家 |
| 02:02:14,070 | 02:02:16,070 | 猴子很難處理啦 |
| 02:02:15,960 | 02:02:17,960 | 綠烈溪我們現在是開放補砂嘛 |
| 02:02:17,960 | 02:02:19,960 | 那目前開放補砂用什麼工具 |
| 02:02:21,650 | 02:02:23,650 | 用什麼工具 |
| 02:02:24,050 | 02:02:26,050 | 用繩索補捉 |
| 02:02:26,050 | 02:02:28,050 | 用彈弓補捉 |
| 02:02:28,050 | 02:02:31,050 | 對不對 甚至我們地方政府還有開班 |
| 02:02:31,050 | 02:02:33,050 | 告訴這些合格的人 |
| 02:02:33,050 | 02:02:35,050 | 訓練他怎麼去捕捉綠烈溪 |
| 02:02:35,050 | 02:02:37,050 | 甚至有人主張找射擊國手來打 |
| 02:02:37,550 | 02:02:39,550 | 你們農業部林包署也有啊 |
| 02:02:39,550 | 02:02:41,550 | 林包署可以起來回應一下 |
| 02:02:41,550 | 02:02:43,550 | 林包署是不是有買獵槍 |
| 02:02:43,540 | 02:02:45,540 | 買了獵槍之後花那麼多錢 |
| 02:02:45,540 | 02:02:47,540 | 有沒有獵手 有沒有獵人 |
| 02:02:47,990 | 02:02:49,990 | 你們開放獵人用獵槍 |
| 02:02:49,990 | 02:02:51,990 | 買了獵槍 |
| 02:02:51,990 | 02:02:53,990 | 徵集獵人去打綠烈溪 |
| 02:02:54,930 | 02:02:56,930 | 效果其實沒有很好 |
| 02:02:57,360 | 02:03:00,360 | 所以其實這個觀念不要混在一起 |
| 02:03:00,360 | 02:03:02,360 | 旅委員的版本講的就是 |
| 02:03:02,360 | 02:03:04,360 | 保育類的野生動物 |
| 02:03:04,360 | 02:03:06,360 | 是政府明文要保障的公法役 |
| 02:03:06,360 | 02:03:08,360 | 當這個公法役侵犯到 |
| 02:03:08,360 | 02:03:10,360 | 跟人民的司法有衝突的時候 |
| 02:03:10,360 | 02:03:12,360 | 你主管機關你要進行救助跟補償嘛 |
| 02:03:13,240 | 02:03:14,240 | 不然你就說這不用保育了 |
| 02:03:14,240 | 02:03:15,240 | 這太多了不用保育 |
| 02:03:15,240 | 02:03:17,240 | 那盡量的保育 |
| 02:03:17,240 | 02:03:19,240 | 那農民的 他的棲地跟農民的 |
| 02:03:19,240 | 02:03:21,240 | 開育肯定地產生的衝突重疊 |
| 02:03:21,240 | 02:03:23,240 | 他的破壞農作的行為要不要救助 |
| 02:03:23,240 | 02:03:25,240 | 我是認為要救助 |
| 02:03:25,390 | 02:03:27,390 | 所以我認為旅委員的版本 |
| 02:03:27,390 | 02:03:28,390 | 其實在我看來 |
| 02:03:28,390 | 02:03:29,390 | 你們好好地思考一下 |
| 02:03:29,390 | 02:03:31,390 | 並沒有所謂的自害難行不當之處 |
| 02:03:31,390 | 02:03:32,390 | 以上 |
| 02:03:32,390 | 02:03:33,390 | 我先稍微說明一下 |
| 02:03:33,390 | 02:03:35,390 | 這個非常重要 |
| 02:03:35,390 | 02:03:36,390 | 旅委員的版本裡面 |
| 02:03:36,390 | 02:03:37,390 | 他是指的是 |
| 02:03:37,390 | 02:03:39,390 | 野生動物保護法所訂的 |
| 02:03:39,390 | 02:03:40,390 | 保育類野生動物 |
| 02:03:40,390 | 02:03:42,390 | 那我在講的部分是 |
| 02:03:42,390 | 02:03:43,390 | 真正的遇到天然障礙的 |
| 02:03:43,390 | 02:03:44,390 | 不是保育類動物 |
| 02:03:44,390 | 02:03:45,390 | 猴子不是保育類動物 |
| 02:03:45,390 | 02:03:47,390 | 山豬不是保育類動物 |
| 02:03:49,450 | 02:03:50,450 | 不是 |
| 02:03:50,450 | 02:03:52,450 | 我是在強調就是說 |
| 02:03:52,450 | 02:03:54,450 | 在立這個法的時候 |
| 02:03:54,450 | 02:03:57,450 | 只寫到野生動物的保育類動物的時候 |
| 02:03:57,450 | 02:04:00,450 | 沒有辦法解決現在農民所遭遇的問題 |
| 02:04:00,450 | 02:04:02,450 | 我承認的就是這個而已 |
| 02:04:02,450 | 02:04:03,450 | 但是那沒有 |
| 02:04:03,450 | 02:04:05,450 | 委員沒有要求你去做你的問題嗎 |
| 02:04:05,450 | 02:04:06,450 | 那部長的意思是說 |
| 02:04:06,450 | 02:04:07,450 | 保育拿掉就可以是嗎 |
| 02:04:07,450 | 02:04:08,450 | 不是 |
| 02:04:08,450 | 02:04:09,450 | 所以我才會說 |
| 02:04:09,450 | 02:04:10,450 | 我才會說 |
| 02:04:10,450 | 02:04:11,450 | 你說 |
| 02:04:11,450 | 02:04:12,450 | 沒有 |
| 02:04:12,450 | 02:04:13,450 | 委員所訂的東西 |
| 02:04:13,450 | 02:04:15,450 | 也是為了減少農民損失 |
| 02:04:15,450 | 02:04:17,450 | 我只是回應現況 |
| 02:04:17,990 | 02:04:20,990 | 其實呂委員的版本目前 |
| 02:04:20,990 | 02:04:21,990 | 並沒有要求你們 |
| 02:04:21,990 | 02:04:23,990 | 針對非保育類野生動物 |
| 02:04:23,990 | 02:04:24,990 | 要進行救助 |
| 02:04:26,480 | 02:04:27,480 | 受害 |
| 02:04:27,480 | 02:04:29,480 | 委員講的受害有很多種 |
| 02:04:29,480 | 02:04:31,480 | 呂委員只針對保育類野生動物造成的受害 |
| 02:04:31,480 | 02:04:32,480 | 你要救助 |
| 02:04:32,480 | 02:04:34,480 | 其他委員關心的受害 |
| 02:04:34,480 | 02:04:35,480 | 彌猴的受害 |
| 02:04:35,480 | 02:04:36,480 | 梅花鹿的受害 |
| 02:04:36,480 | 02:04:37,480 | 那些的受害 |
| 02:04:37,480 | 02:04:39,480 | 那你們怎麼去調整 |
| 02:04:39,480 | 02:04:40,480 | 委員說了嘛 |
| 02:04:40,480 | 02:04:41,480 | 三個月提出一個報告 |
| 02:04:41,980 | 02:04:42,980 | 這樣子啦 |
| 02:04:42,980 | 02:04:45,980 | 那個第60條有幾個議案 |
| 02:04:46,980 | 02:04:50,980 | 第一個就是農損的來源 |
| 02:04:50,980 | 02:04:52,980 | 它有保育跟非保育動物類別 |
| 02:04:54,180 | 02:04:57,180 | 但是我們大家一致的共同目標就是說 |
| 02:04:57,180 | 02:04:58,180 | 只要是農損 |
| 02:04:59,130 | 02:05:00,130 | 有達到我們的標準 |
| 02:05:00,130 | 02:05:02,130 | 政府應該要協助 |
| 02:05:02,130 | 02:05:04,130 | 這是大家達成一個共識 |
| 02:05:04,130 | 02:05:07,130 | 那所以至於文字上面 |
| 02:05:07,130 | 02:05:08,130 | 既然我們的目標一次 |
| 02:05:08,130 | 02:05:10,130 | 那文字上面 |
| 02:05:10,130 | 02:05:12,130 | 我就充分建議 |
| 02:05:12,130 | 02:05:14,130 | 就跟這個第10條 |
| 02:05:15,940 | 02:05:18,940 | 第1條跟第69條一樣 |
| 02:05:18,940 | 02:05:20,940 | 我們就是一個月你們提出 |
| 02:05:20,940 | 02:05:21,940 | 那 |
| 02:05:22,960 | 02:05:23,960 | 我們送出 |
| 02:05:23,960 | 02:05:25,960 | 然後協商 |
| 02:05:25,960 | 02:05:27,960 | 那趁著這個一個月的時間 |
| 02:05:27,960 | 02:05:30,960 | 請行政部門去提出 |
| 02:05:30,960 | 02:05:32,960 | 因為目標都已經一次 |
| 02:05:32,960 | 02:05:33,960 | 那這個部分另外 |
| 02:05:33,960 | 02:05:35,960 | 也就是我非常在意的 |
| 02:05:35,960 | 02:05:39,960 | 我們每一年的現金救助的標準 |
| 02:05:40,690 | 02:05:41,690 | 不管是農業 |
| 02:05:42,480 | 02:05:44,480 | 所產生的成本成長 |
| 02:05:44,480 | 02:05:46,480 | 或者是CPI的成本成長 |
| 02:05:46,480 | 02:05:48,480 | 這些我們的來源 |
| 02:05:48,480 | 02:05:51,480 | 是依據什麼每一年去做調整 |
| 02:05:51,480 | 02:05:55,480 | 我認為必須要去把它列出來 |
| 02:05:55,480 | 02:05:57,480 | 那我充分建議主席臺 |
| 02:05:57,480 | 02:05:58,480 | 各位同仁 |
| 02:05:58,480 | 02:06:00,480 | 跟行政部門就是說 |
| 02:06:00,480 | 02:06:02,480 | 這一個大家好不容易討論這麼久 |
| 02:06:02,480 | 02:06:04,480 | 已經達成共識 |
| 02:06:04,480 | 02:06:05,480 | 我再重複講 |
| 02:06:05,480 | 02:06:07,480 | 也就是只要是農損的 |
| 02:06:07,480 | 02:06:09,480 | 不管你是保育類 |
| 02:06:10,120 | 02:06:11,120 | 保護類 |
| 02:06:11,120 | 02:06:14,120 | 或者是一般動物影響農損 |
| 02:06:14,120 | 02:06:15,120 | 我們結果論就是 |
| 02:06:15,120 | 02:06:18,120 | 農損的我們是要補助給農民 |
| 02:06:18,120 | 02:06:21,120 | 那另外就是本席所提出的 |
| 02:06:21,120 | 02:06:23,120 | 現金救助的標準來源 |
| 02:06:23,120 | 02:06:25,120 | 要依據什麼去訂定資 |
| 02:06:25,120 | 02:06:28,120 | 我認為這個必須要說明清楚 |
| 02:06:28,120 | 02:06:30,120 | 因為我們大家都贊成 |
| 02:06:30,120 | 02:06:31,120 | 農民這麼辛苦 |
| 02:06:31,120 | 02:06:32,120 | 不是去吃 |
| 02:06:32,120 | 02:06:34,120 | 不是每年來拜託來賓 |
| 02:06:34,120 | 02:06:35,120 | 不必要這樣子 |
| 02:06:35,120 | 02:06:37,120 | 你給他一個合理 |
| 02:06:37,120 | 02:06:38,120 | 大家都歡喜 |
| 02:06:38,120 | 02:06:39,120 | 好不好 |
| 02:06:39,120 | 02:06:40,120 | 所以充分建議 |
| 02:06:40,120 | 02:06:41,120 | 一樣是一個月 |
| 02:06:41,120 | 02:06:42,120 | 你們去提出 |
| 02:06:42,120 | 02:06:44,120 | 我們趁著這個時間 |
| 02:06:44,120 | 02:06:45,120 | 大家好好來討論 |
| 02:06:45,120 | 02:06:46,120 | 謝謝 |
| 02:06:47,810 | 02:06:51,810 | 我剛也要處理了 |
| 02:06:51,810 | 02:06:52,810 | 因為剛剛李永維 |
| 02:06:52,810 | 02:06:54,810 | 那三個月我是不同意的 |
| 02:06:54,810 | 02:06:55,810 | 因為我 |
| 02:06:57,140 | 02:06:58,140 | 三個月的什麼 |
| 02:06:58,140 | 02:07:00,140 | 那個寫出那個 |
| 02:07:00,440 | 02:07:01,440 | 對啊 |
| 02:07:01,760 | 02:07:02,760 | 沒有 |
| 02:07:02,760 | 02:07:04,760 | 我是要一個月的 |
| 02:07:04,760 | 02:07:05,760 | 為什麼呢 |
| 02:07:05,760 | 02:07:06,760 | 這個在我們當初 |
| 02:07:06,760 | 02:07:08,760 | 在做土產法律修改 |
| 02:07:08,760 | 02:07:09,760 | 就已經跟你們農業部 |
| 02:07:09,760 | 02:07:12,760 | 就已經同步都是一併溝通 |
| 02:07:12,760 | 02:07:14,760 | 然後溝通了那麼久 |
| 02:07:14,760 | 02:07:15,760 | 我們經濟部的所有的土壤 |
| 02:07:15,760 | 02:07:16,760 | 都已經過了 |
| 02:07:16,760 | 02:07:17,760 | 三讀都過了 |
| 02:07:17,760 | 02:07:19,760 | 今天還在討論這一個 |
| 02:07:19,760 | 02:07:21,760 | 你們又自己又沒有版本 |
| 02:07:22,500 | 02:07:24,500 | 然後前面兩次溝通也說 |
| 02:07:24,500 | 02:07:25,500 | 你們都開會 |
| 02:07:25,500 | 02:07:26,500 | 但沒結論 |
| 02:07:27,220 | 02:07:28,220 | 好 |
| 02:07:28,220 | 02:07:29,220 | 所以我不要再這樣子拖延 |
| 02:07:29,220 | 02:07:30,220 | 我在科技業 |
| 02:07:30,220 | 02:07:31,220 | 我受不了這一種 |
| 02:07:33,060 | 02:07:34,060 | 一個月 |
| 02:07:34,110 | 02:07:36,110 | 好我們用這個保留條文 |
| 02:07:36,110 | 02:07:37,110 | 送出協商 |
| 02:07:37,110 | 02:07:39,110 | 一個月指的是什麼 |
| 02:07:39,110 | 02:07:40,110 | 一個月 |
| 02:07:40,860 | 02:07:41,860 | 協商很痛奇 |
| 02:07:41,860 | 02:07:42,860 | 我現在是保留條文 |
| 02:07:42,860 | 02:07:43,860 | OK保留條文 |
| 02:07:43,860 | 02:07:45,860 | 那我剛才講的就是說 |
| 02:07:46,480 | 02:07:48,480 | 我會針對裡面 |
| 02:07:48,480 | 02:07:51,480 | 可能天然災害受影響的這些種類 |
| 02:07:51,480 | 02:07:53,480 | 我把它更明確的講 |
| 02:07:53,480 | 02:07:55,480 | 但是不是在以後的執行面 |
| 02:07:55,480 | 02:07:57,480 | 執行面是另外一件事情 |
| 02:07:57,480 | 02:07:58,480 | 就是針對法裡面 |
| 02:07:58,480 | 02:08:00,480 | 該怎麼樣去放的部分 |
| 02:08:00,480 | 02:08:03,480 | 我可以提出一個內容 |
| 02:08:08,530 | 02:08:10,530 | 所以我覺得這60條 |
| 02:08:10,530 | 02:08:12,530 | 我們這樣訂的沒有問題 |
| 02:08:12,530 | 02:08:13,530 | 應該是可以過的 |
| 02:08:13,530 | 02:08:15,530 | 它只是在它的執法 |
| 02:08:15,530 | 02:08:17,530 | 它的執行辦法裡面去訂定 |
| 02:08:17,530 | 02:08:18,530 | 該怎麼去執行而已 |
| 02:08:19,840 | 02:08:20,840 | 這不影響啊 |
| 02:08:21,650 | 02:08:23,650 | 我們現在就先暫時休息 |
| 02:08:23,650 | 02:08:24,650 | 如果沒關係 |
| 02:08:24,650 | 02:08:26,650 | 因為剛剛還包含楊全委員 |
| 02:08:26,650 | 02:08:27,650 | 鄭天才委員的意見 |
| 02:08:27,650 | 02:08:30,650 | 還有天然災害防護的認定 |
| 02:08:30,650 | 02:08:32,650 | 所以我是認為是說 |
| 02:08:32,650 | 02:08:33,650 | 根據各位的意見 |
| 02:08:33,650 | 02:08:34,650 | 我們先休息一下好了 |
| 02:08:34,650 | 02:08:35,650 | 等一下再跟各位講 |
| 02:08:42,710 | 02:08:43,710 | 謝謝大家 |
| 02:08:48,450 | 02:08:49,450 | 我的還沒過啊 |
| 02:08:49,450 | 02:08:50,450 | 我的還沒有過啊 |
| 02:08:50,450 | 02:08:51,450 | 怎麼過 |
| 02:08:52,270 | 02:08:53,270 | 我的它還沒有啊 |
| 02:08:54,080 | 02:08:55,080 | 好啦 就一個月啦 |
| 02:08:57,150 | 02:08:58,150 | 主席這個60條 |
| 02:08:58,150 | 02:08:59,150 | 有好幾個理由 |
| 02:08:59,150 | 02:09:01,150 | 可以讓我休息五分鐘上廁所 |
| 02:09:02,700 | 02:09:03,700 | 這個就是保留啊 |
| 02:09:03,700 | 02:09:05,700 | 不是 這每個委員的都保留嘛 |
| 02:09:05,700 | 02:09:06,700 | 不是我這一條而已啊 |
| 02:09:06,700 | 02:09:07,700 | 對啊 |
| 02:09:07,700 | 02:09:08,700 | 好啦 一起保留好了 |
| 02:09:08,700 | 02:09:09,700 | 一起保留啊 |
| 02:09:09,700 | 02:09:10,700 | 因為你知道它野生端娃 |
| 02:09:10,700 | 02:09:12,700 | 還有那個秋志偉招尾的啊 |
| 02:09:12,700 | 02:09:13,700 | 可是一個月後 |
| 02:09:13,700 | 02:09:15,700 | 它要有明確的定義出來 |
| 02:09:15,700 | 02:09:16,700 | 當然啊 不然我們就 |
| 02:09:16,700 | 02:09:17,700 | 我們都無法去執行 |
| 02:09:17,700 | 02:09:18,700 | 不要又告訴我們說 |
| 02:09:18,700 | 02:09:19,700 | 要用執法 |
| 02:09:20,620 | 02:09:21,620 | 對 不然我就收山竹啊 |
| 02:09:21,620 | 02:09:23,620 | 一定要修好去執法 |
| 02:09:23,620 | 02:09:24,620 | 不是推到執法 |
| 02:09:27,220 | 02:09:28,220 | 對啊 不然我們就是 |
| 02:09:28,220 | 02:09:29,220 | 其他人往自己弄 |
| 02:09:29,220 | 02:09:30,220 | 我們就山竹了啊 |
| 02:09:33,230 | 02:09:34,230 | 我們 |
| 02:09:34,610 | 02:09:36,610 | 還是我們把第65條弄完 |
| 02:09:36,610 | 02:09:38,610 | 再休息五分鐘好了 好不好 |
| 02:09:42,390 | 02:09:44,390 | 我們只剩65條之一啦 好不好 |
| 02:09:45,300 | 02:09:46,300 | 我才等一下啦 |
| 02:09:46,950 | 02:09:48,950 | 那個 中央電話 |
| 02:09:49,850 | 02:09:50,850 | 不是 |
| 02:09:50,850 | 02:09:51,850 | 第65條弄完這一個 |
| 02:09:51,850 | 02:09:53,850 | 讓它再休息 |
| 02:09:53,850 | 02:09:55,850 | 阿林 秋志偉偉 |
| 02:10:00,080 | 02:10:01,080 | 第65條之一 |
| 02:10:06,200 | 02:10:07,200 | 現在是65條 |
| 02:10:18,440 | 02:10:20,440 | 中央電話 |
| 02:10:21,800 | 02:10:22,800 | 其他的一樣 |
| 02:10:25,780 | 02:10:26,780 | 我們先保留好了 |
| 02:10:26,780 | 02:10:27,780 | 它一變反 跟一個月沒有 |
| 02:10:27,780 | 02:10:28,780 | 我們一定處理 好不好 |
| 02:10:32,260 | 02:10:34,260 | 剛剛農業部是不是接受69條 |
| 02:10:34,260 | 02:10:35,260 | 65之一 |
| 02:10:35,260 | 02:10:37,260 | 65之一可以接受嗎 |
| 02:10:37,260 | 02:10:39,260 | 對 只是最後一個並訂定相關辦法 |
| 02:10:39,260 | 02:10:40,260 | 可以不用 |
| 02:10:40,260 | 02:10:41,260 | 好不容易 |
| 02:10:41,260 | 02:10:42,260 | 我們今天休息之前 |
| 02:10:42,260 | 02:10:44,260 | 有一個行政院可以接受的吧 |
| 02:10:46,700 | 02:10:47,700 | 沒有關係嘛 |
| 02:10:47,700 | 02:10:49,700 | 這一條至少讓它先過嘛 |
| 02:10:49,700 | 02:10:50,700 | 65條嘛 |
| 02:10:50,700 | 02:10:51,700 | 60條之一嘛 |
| 02:10:53,980 | 02:10:55,980 | 後半段改一下嘛 |
| 02:10:55,980 | 02:10:56,980 | 那這好不好 |
| 02:10:56,980 | 02:10:58,980 | 行政機關你們把文字修一下 |
| 02:10:58,980 | 02:10:59,980 | 我們待會休息完 |
| 02:10:59,980 | 02:11:00,980 | 我們就讓它過嘛 好不好 |
| 02:11:02,990 | 02:11:03,990 | 我們今天休息 |
| 02:11:04,570 | 02:11:06,570 | 就這一條你休息一下 |
| 02:11:06,570 | 02:11:07,570 | 看其他委員的意見 好不好 |
| 02:11:07,570 | 02:11:08,570 | 休息五分鐘 |
| 02:12:15,970 | 02:12:16,970 | 謝謝大家 |
| 02:12:17,690 | 02:12:18,690 | 休息五分鐘 |
| 02:12:18,690 | 02:12:19,690 | 晚安 |
| 02:12:30,180 | 02:12:32,180 | 晚安 |
| 02:12:39,120 | 02:12:41,120 | 晚安 |
| 02:12:40,760 | 02:12:41,760 | 晚安 |
| 02:12:45,220 | 02:12:46,220 | 晚安 |
| 02:12:46,820 | 02:12:48,820 | 晚安 |
| 02:13:14,970 | 02:13:15,970 | 晚安 |
| 02:13:17,460 | 02:13:18,460 | 晚安 |
| 02:13:18,460 | 02:13:20,460 | 晚安 |
| 02:13:25,080 | 02:13:27,080 | 晚安 |
| 02:13:29,630 | 02:13:30,630 | 晚安 |
| 02:13:38,610 | 02:13:40,610 | 晚安 |
| 02:13:45,920 | 02:13:46,920 | 晚安 |
| 02:14:06,890 | 02:14:08,890 | 晚安 |
| 02:14:15,350 | 02:14:16,350 | 晚安 |
| 02:14:22,010 | 02:14:24,010 | 晚安 |
| 02:14:38,040 | 02:14:39,040 | 晚安 |
| 02:14:39,290 | 02:14:40,290 | 晚安 |
| 02:14:42,730 | 02:14:43,730 | 但是不是你的 我這是 |
| 02:14:43,730 | 02:14:44,730 | 水寶的啦 |
| 02:14:44,730 | 02:14:45,730 | 水寶的 我的 |
| 02:14:45,730 | 02:14:46,730 | 水寶你的 對對 |
| 02:14:46,730 | 02:14:47,730 | 水寶你的 |
| 02:14:47,730 | 02:14:48,730 | 等一下我去拿火機 |
| 02:14:48,730 | 02:14:49,730 | 要先到 |
| 02:14:49,730 | 02:14:50,730 | 要先到 |
| 02:14:50,730 | 02:14:52,730 | 那邊就不會動了 |
| 02:14:54,160 | 02:14:57,160 | 我不能多做東西 |
| 02:14:58,900 | 02:14:59,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:14:59,900 | 02:15:00,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:00,900 | 02:15:01,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:01,900 | 02:15:02,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:02,900 | 02:15:03,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:03,900 | 02:15:04,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:04,900 | 02:15:05,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:05,900 | 02:15:06,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:06,900 | 02:15:07,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:07,900 | 02:15:08,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:08,900 | 02:15:09,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:09,900 | 02:15:10,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:10,900 | 02:15:11,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:11,900 | 02:15:12,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:12,900 | 02:15:13,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:13,900 | 02:15:14,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:14,900 | 02:15:15,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:15,900 | 02:15:16,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:16,900 | 02:15:17,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:17,900 | 02:15:18,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:18,900 | 02:15:19,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:19,900 | 02:15:20,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:20,900 | 02:15:21,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:21,900 | 02:15:22,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:22,900 | 02:15:23,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:23,900 | 02:15:24,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:24,900 | 02:15:25,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:25,900 | 02:15:26,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:26,900 | 02:15:27,900 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:00,010 | 02:15:01,010 | 我去拿火機 |
| 02:15:02,120 | 02:15:04,120 | 新聞稿啦 |
| 02:15:12,670 | 02:15:14,670 | 謝謝 |
| 02:15:21,720 | 02:15:23,720 | 你們不是用戴著保險的 |
| 02:15:32,970 | 02:15:33,970 | 謝謝 |
| 02:15:33,810 | 02:15:35,810 | 謝謝 |
| 02:15:50,980 | 02:15:51,980 | 謝謝 |
| 02:15:55,970 | 02:15:57,970 | 謝謝 |
| 02:15:57,960 | 02:15:58,960 | 謝謝 |
| 02:15:58,550 | 02:16:00,550 | 謝謝 |
| 02:16:00,970 | 02:16:01,970 | 謝謝 |
| 02:16:14,970 | 02:16:15,970 | 謝謝 |
| 02:16:17,340 | 02:16:18,340 | 不堅持啦 |
| 02:16:18,340 | 02:16:19,340 | 但是如果大家沒有反對 |
| 02:16:19,340 | 02:16:20,340 | 也不可能 |
| 02:16:20,340 | 02:16:21,340 | 因為那個 |
| 02:16:21,340 | 02:16:22,340 | 你跟他講 |
| 02:16:22,340 | 02:16:23,340 | 因為那個海洋 |
| 02:18:29,969 | 02:18:30,969 | 謝謝 |
| 02:18:32,790 | 02:18:33,790 | 謝謝 |
| 02:18:39,250 | 02:18:41,250 | 謝謝 |
| 02:18:41,850 | 02:18:42,850 | 其實也要交易啦 |
| 02:18:49,530 | 02:18:51,530 | 謝謝 |
| 02:18:51,709 | 02:18:53,709 | 謝謝 |
| 02:18:55,129 | 02:18:57,129 | 謝謝 |
| 02:18:57,510 | 02:18:59,510 | 謝謝 |
| 02:19:11,240 | 02:19:12,240 | 對啊 |
| 02:19:12,240 | 02:19:13,240 | 因為 |
| 02:19:13,240 | 02:19:14,240 | 會跟 |
| 02:19:14,240 | 02:19:16,240 | 會還是一樣的做啊 |
| 02:19:16,240 | 02:19:17,240 | 對 還是要做 |
| 02:19:17,660 | 02:19:19,660 | 謝謝 |
| 02:19:29,930 | 02:19:31,930 | 謝謝 |
| 02:19:41,420 | 02:19:43,420 | 謝謝 |
| 02:19:43,969 | 02:19:44,969 | 謝謝 |
| 02:19:47,719 | 02:19:48,720 | 謝謝 |
| 02:19:58,940 | 02:20:00,940 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:02,040 | 02:20:03,040 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:08,590 | 02:20:09,590 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:18,120 | 02:20:20,120 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:26,730 | 02:20:27,730 | 好啦 一個月體重 |
| 02:20:33,130 | 02:20:34,130 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:34,970 | 02:20:35,970 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:36,100 | 02:20:37,100 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:38,510 | 02:20:39,510 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:39,510 | 02:20:40,510 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:40,510 | 02:20:41,510 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:41,510 | 02:20:42,510 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:42,510 | 02:20:43,510 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:45,010 | 02:20:46,010 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:46,010 | 02:20:47,010 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:47,010 | 02:20:48,010 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:48,010 | 02:20:49,010 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:49,010 | 02:20:50,010 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:49,820 | 02:20:51,820 | 謝謝 |
| 02:20:54,340 | 02:20:56,340 | 謝謝 |
| 02:21:16,970 | 02:21:18,970 | 謝謝 |
| 02:21:21,630 | 02:21:22,630 | 謝謝 |
| 02:21:23,410 | 02:21:24,410 | 謝謝 |
| 02:21:26,370 | 02:21:27,370 | 謝謝 |
| 02:21:53,470 | 02:21:54,470 | 謝謝 |
| 02:22:04,830 | 02:22:06,830 | 謝謝 |
| 02:22:06,990 | 02:22:07,990 | 不是 |
| 02:22:15,000 | 02:22:16,000 | 好 |
| 02:22:18,920 | 02:22:19,920 | 我們繼續開會 |
| 02:22:23,300 | 02:22:25,300 | 那第65條之1的話 |
| 02:22:27,510 | 02:22:28,510 | 主席我才是 |
| 02:22:28,510 | 02:22:30,510 | 因為就是我們這邊沒到 |
| 02:22:30,510 | 02:22:31,510 | 我才是覺得 |
| 02:22:31,510 | 02:22:33,510 | 我們今天這邊都保留好不好 |
| 02:22:33,510 | 02:22:34,510 | 因為這個一併上學商 |
| 02:22:36,450 | 02:22:37,450 | 給他第一條有過 |
| 02:22:38,290 | 02:22:39,290 | I had it |
| 02:22:39,790 | 02:22:40,790 | 問一下 |
| 02:22:40,790 | 02:22:41,790 | 65條如果大家都沒有意見也讓他過啦 |
| 02:22:43,380 | 02:22:44,380 | 六條之一怎麼樣 |
| 02:22:44,380 | 02:22:45,380 | 可以保留嗎 |
| 02:22:45,380 | 02:22:46,380 | 全部保留 |
| 02:22:46,380 | 02:22:47,380 | 好 |
| 02:22:47,380 | 02:22:48,380 | 66條保留 |
| 02:22:48,160 | 02:22:49,160 | 第一條 |
| 02:22:49,160 | 02:22:50,160 | 第一條 |
| 02:22:50,160 | 02:22:52,160 | 那65條之一有什麼 |
| 02:22:52,160 | 02:22:53,160 | 大家有不同意見嗎 |
| 02:22:55,690 | 02:22:56,690 | 好不好 |
| 02:22:56,690 | 02:22:57,690 | 爭取啦爭取啦 |
| 02:22:57,690 | 02:22:59,690 | 65條之一如果沒問題我們就讓他過了 |
| 02:23:01,880 | 02:23:02,880 | 沒有我剛剛已經裁決了 |
| 02:23:02,880 | 02:23:03,880 | 就先這樣子 |
| 02:23:03,880 | 02:23:04,880 | 因為這樣我一併處理比較好處理 |
| 02:23:06,450 | 02:23:07,450 | 好 |
| 02:23:08,260 | 02:23:10,260 | 請一併宣讀學商的 |
| 02:23:11,570 | 02:23:12,570 | 結論 |
| 02:23:36,640 | 02:23:37,640 | 請問各位同仁 |
| 02:23:37,640 | 02:23:39,640 | 照剛剛宣讀的學商結論通過 |
| 02:23:39,640 | 02:23:40,640 | 請問有意義 |
| 02:23:41,180 | 02:23:42,180 | 無意義通過 |
| 02:23:42,180 | 02:23:45,180 | 討論事項有關農業發展條例部分條文 |
| 02:23:45,180 | 02:23:48,180 | 相關修正場等8案審查玩具 |
| 02:23:48,180 | 02:23:52,180 | 並讓你去審查報告提報院會討論 |
| 02:23:52,720 | 02:23:54,720 | 請問需不需加油黨團 |
| 02:23:56,170 | 02:23:57,170 | 學商 |
| 02:23:57,550 | 02:23:58,550 | 需要好 |
| 02:23:59,420 | 02:24:03,420 | 請問教主席我確認一下是直接進到院會處理還是黨團協商 |
| 02:24:03,420 | 02:24:04,420 | 黨團協商 |
| 02:24:04,420 | 02:24:05,420 | 謝謝 |
| 02:24:11,270 | 02:24:13,270 | 院會討論時有本席說明審查 |
| 02:24:13,270 | 02:24:14,270 | 通過之調查相關法制 |
| 02:24:14,270 | 02:24:17,270 | 容許授權主席及議事人員處理 |
| 02:24:21,750 | 02:24:23,750 | 好我們現在學商討論事項2 |
| 02:24:23,750 | 02:24:27,750 | 有關隨圖保持法部分條文相關修正場案 |
| 02:24:27,750 | 02:24:29,750 | 共有4個提案版本 |
| 02:24:29,750 | 02:24:32,750 | 以本次會議一併審查 |
| 02:24:32,750 | 02:24:35,750 | 我們先從第二條開始協商 |
| 02:24:35,750 | 02:24:37,750 | 請農業部說明 |
| 02:24:37,970 | 02:24:39,970 | 好第二條的部分我們也支持委員的版本 |
| 02:24:39,970 | 02:24:41,970 | 配合行政院的組織改造 |
| 02:24:41,970 | 02:24:45,970 | 我們新政修正行政院農委會為農業部 |
| 02:24:50,610 | 02:24:52,610 | 第二條大家都一樣 |
| 02:24:52,980 | 02:24:54,980 | 好 |
| 02:24:56,020 | 02:24:57,020 | 還有4 |
| 02:25:01,050 | 02:25:03,050 | 好 |
| 02:25:01,950 | 02:25:03,950 | 所以就照樣通過 |
| 02:25:06,810 | 02:25:09,810 | 提案以及靈代化的提案照樣通過 |
| 02:25:13,290 | 02:25:16,290 | 好接下來的話我們進行第23條 |
| 02:25:19,460 | 02:25:22,460 | 第三條的部分我們也參與委員的意見 |
| 02:25:22,460 | 02:25:23,460 | 將無法 |
| 02:25:23,780 | 02:25:29,780 | 無法使用權責納入裁處及費用之負擔的規定 |
| 02:25:29,780 | 02:25:33,780 | 這個部分等一下我們會念相關的文字 |
| 02:25:33,780 | 02:25:40,780 | 至於說裁處的部分我們還是建議是用暗次的處罰 |
| 02:25:41,550 | 02:25:43,550 | 好 |
| 02:25:44,820 | 02:25:49,820 | 對我們就剛才講的就是說我們將那個無法使用權納入裁處的部分 |
| 02:25:49,820 | 02:25:52,820 | 那我們做文字的一些說明 |
| 02:25:53,870 | 02:25:55,870 | 我跟委員說明一下 |
| 02:25:55,870 | 02:25:57,870 | 那個第一項的部分 |
| 02:25:57,870 | 02:25:59,870 | 你有我的修正動議嗎 |
| 02:25:59,870 | 02:26:01,870 | 那我跟委員說明一下 |
| 02:26:01,870 | 02:26:03,870 | 你的修正動議的部分 |
| 02:26:03,870 | 02:26:05,870 | 那個我們還是做一下調整 |
| 02:26:05,870 | 02:26:07,870 | 就是說第一項的部分 |
| 02:26:07,870 | 02:26:11,870 | 第一項的部分還是維持我們的線性條文 |
| 02:26:11,870 | 02:26:13,870 | 就跟 |
| 02:26:14,370 | 02:26:16,370 | 那重點是在第二項 |
| 02:26:16,370 | 02:26:18,370 | 第二項的部分是 |
| 02:26:18,370 | 02:26:22,370 | 為依第12條至第14條規定之一 |
| 02:26:22,370 | 02:26:24,370 | 擬具隨度保持計畫 |
| 02:26:24,370 | 02:26:26,370 | 送主管機關核定而擅自開發者 |
| 02:26:26,370 | 02:26:31,370 | 除依第33條規定暗示分別處罰外 |
| 02:26:31,370 | 02:26:35,370 | 主管機關因令違規行為人停工鬥點 |
| 02:26:35,370 | 02:26:43,370 | 並得通知其限期改正、遁號、沒入或其設施及所使用之機具 |
| 02:26:43,370 | 02:26:46,370 | 強制拆除及清除其工作物 |
| 02:26:46,370 | 02:26:49,370 | 所需費用由違規行為人負擔 |
| 02:26:49,370 | 02:26:53,370 | 分號且得自第一次處罰之日起 |
| 02:26:53,370 | 02:26:57,370 | 二年內暫停該地址開發申請 |
| 02:26:57,370 | 02:27:01,370 | 就是說我們把處罰的對象明定為違規行為人 |
| 02:27:01,370 | 02:27:05,370 | 這個名詞把它很確定出來才行為責任 |
| 02:27:05,370 | 02:27:09,370 | 誰違規在山坡地開發沒有擬具水保計畫 |
| 02:27:09,370 | 02:27:12,370 | 我就罰他然後命他停工 |
| 02:27:12,980 | 02:27:14,980 | 我們在第二項最主要的修正 |
| 02:27:14,980 | 02:27:16,980 | 然後第三項的部分 |
| 02:27:18,630 | 02:27:20,630 | 就很清楚的在說明說 |
| 02:27:20,630 | 02:27:23,630 | 前項違規行為人無合法使用權者 |
| 02:27:23,630 | 02:27:26,630 | 於辦理限期改正事項前 |
| 02:27:26,630 | 02:27:30,630 | 無法取得經營人、使用人或所有權人同意 |
| 02:27:30,630 | 02:27:36,630 | 主管機關因通知經營人、使用人或所有權人限期改正 |
| 02:27:36,630 | 02:27:40,630 | 那這一條就是在處理剛剛第二項委員 |
| 02:27:40,630 | 02:27:42,630 | 我們要強調說我罰的是違規行為人 |
| 02:27:42,630 | 02:27:44,630 | 那違規行為人可能不是地主 |
| 02:27:44,630 | 02:27:46,630 | 那不是地主的時候 |
| 02:27:46,630 | 02:27:51,630 | 那他要去那個地上要去限期改正可能地主是反對的 |
| 02:27:51,630 | 02:27:54,630 | 那地主如果反對的話就由主管機關通知他 |
| 02:27:54,630 | 02:27:56,630 | 由他來負責改正 |
| 02:27:56,630 | 02:27:58,630 | 那這是我們第三項的修正 |
| 02:27:58,630 | 02:28:00,630 | 那最後一項的修正就是 |
| 02:28:00,630 | 02:28:05,630 | 以完工道路或設施之養護准用第一項及第二項之規定 |
| 02:28:05,630 | 02:28:07,630 | 因為我們相似變動了 |
| 02:28:07,630 | 02:28:10,630 | 所以這一項的相似再重新做修正 |
| 02:28:10,630 | 02:28:11,630 | 以上 |
| 02:28:14,070 | 02:28:15,070 | 這樣好不好 |
| 02:28:15,070 | 02:28:18,070 | 因為等一下休息再給我看一下好了 |
| 02:28:20,720 | 02:28:22,720 | 對啊 |
| 02:28:26,320 | 02:28:27,320 | 都沒有 |
| 02:28:28,010 | 02:28:29,010 | 同志是我們 |
| 02:28:40,930 | 02:28:42,930 | 第三項簡化就對了 |
| 02:28:44,890 | 02:28:48,890 | 第三項是我們配合配合這一次委員講的是 |
| 02:28:48,890 | 02:28:52,890 | 因為有不少是違規開發是沒有合法使用權的人 |
| 02:28:52,890 | 02:28:56,890 | 那我們再把第三項在實務上遇到的問題 |
| 02:28:56,890 | 02:28:58,890 | 把它做一個處理 |
| 02:29:09,050 | 02:29:10,050 | 嗯 |
| 02:29:10,210 | 02:29:14,210 | 你這個跟你的這個行政部門所提出 |
| 02:29:14,210 | 02:29:17,210 | 跟主題人差別 |
| 02:29:17,210 | 02:29:18,210 | 第一個是日 |
| 02:29:18,970 | 02:29:19,970 | 跟次 |
| 02:29:19,970 | 02:29:21,970 | 你們現在是認為要次 |
| 02:29:21,970 | 02:29:23,970 | 這是第一個 |
| 02:29:23,970 | 02:29:25,970 | 第二個就在於 |
| 02:29:25,970 | 02:29:28,970 | 這個違規行為人停工 |
| 02:29:28,970 | 02:29:31,970 | 並得通知其期限改正 |
| 02:29:31,970 | 02:29:35,970 | 你是增加讓他改善的時間 |
| 02:29:35,970 | 02:29:37,970 | 那你這個並期 |
| 02:29:37,970 | 02:29:40,970 | 並得通知其期限改正 |
| 02:29:40,970 | 02:29:41,970 | 限期改正 |
| 02:29:41,970 | 02:29:42,970 | 限期改正 |
| 02:29:42,970 | 02:29:43,970 | 那你的限期 |
| 02:29:45,030 | 02:29:46,030 | 委員您要知道 |
| 02:29:46,030 | 02:29:49,030 | 以前立法體例上曾經出現一個問題 |
| 02:29:49,030 | 02:29:50,030 | 我們很困擾的問題 |
| 02:29:50,030 | 02:29:53,030 | 準期請問的是你的限期 |
| 02:29:53,030 | 02:29:54,030 | 你的限期 |
| 02:29:54,030 | 02:29:56,030 | 如果沒有寫時間 |
| 02:29:56,030 | 02:29:59,030 | 是不是依照他的case來決定 |
| 02:29:59,030 | 02:30:01,030 | 行政部門來決定 |
| 02:30:01,030 | 02:30:02,030 | 所以沒有固定 |
| 02:30:02,030 | 02:30:04,030 | 比如說我們很多的法律 |
| 02:30:04,030 | 02:30:07,030 | 就是一個月內兩個禮拜內一個禮拜內 |
| 02:30:07,030 | 02:30:09,030 | 要依實際的狀況 |
| 02:30:09,030 | 02:30:11,030 | 所以你的是要依你的case |
| 02:30:11,030 | 02:30:12,030 | 依照你的case |
| 02:30:12,030 | 02:30:14,030 | 是授權給行政部門 |
| 02:30:14,030 | 02:30:15,030 | 你的意思是不是這樣子 |
| 02:30:15,030 | 02:30:16,030 | 委員我要跟您說 |
| 02:30:16,030 | 02:30:18,030 | 我們當初第一項跟第二項 |
| 02:30:18,030 | 02:30:20,030 | 常受外面的困擾的是 |
| 02:30:20,030 | 02:30:22,030 | 第一項就是 |
| 02:30:22,030 | 02:30:23,030 | 他有你水保計畫 |
| 02:30:23,030 | 02:30:25,030 | 只是沒有一合套水保計畫 |
| 02:30:25,030 | 02:30:27,030 | 但第一項委員您要看一下 |
| 02:30:27,030 | 02:30:30,030 | 他上面有時候也要有限期改正 |
| 02:30:30,030 | 02:30:32,030 | 第一項有限期改正 |
| 02:30:32,030 | 02:30:34,030 | 就是因為你如果 |
| 02:30:34,030 | 02:30:35,030 | 你們要依照原先核定去挖 |
| 02:30:35,030 | 02:30:37,030 | 然後我們就請你限期改正 |
| 02:30:37,030 | 02:30:39,030 | 那第二項您去看限期的條文 |
| 02:30:39,030 | 02:30:41,030 | 他沒有限期改正這個我自言 |
| 02:30:41,030 | 02:30:44,030 | 沒有擬具的人卻沒有限期改正 |
| 02:30:44,030 | 02:30:46,030 | 所以就造成外界很多人困擾說 |
| 02:30:46,030 | 02:30:48,030 | 以為好亂來的人就不用改正 |
| 02:30:48,030 | 02:30:49,030 | 是要的 |
| 02:30:49,030 | 02:30:51,030 | 所以我們這次把他寫得很清楚 |
| 02:30:51,030 | 02:30:54,030 | 說不論你是未依核定或未擬具 |
| 02:30:54,030 | 02:30:56,030 | 那個現地的狀況 |
| 02:30:56,030 | 02:30:58,030 | 你被你挖了亂七八糟的狀況 |
| 02:30:58,030 | 02:31:01,030 | 是必須要你把他改正回來的 |
| 02:31:01,030 | 02:31:04,030 | 所以我們最主要的問題就是限期改正 |
| 02:31:04,030 | 02:31:05,030 | 那剛剛委員您詢問的 |
| 02:31:05,030 | 02:31:07,030 | 因為開挖整地的狀態 |
| 02:31:07,030 | 02:31:08,030 | 你看每個人的狀況 |
| 02:31:08,030 | 02:31:10,030 | 有很嚴重的也有很輕微的 |
| 02:31:10,030 | 02:31:12,030 | 改正的方式都有不同 |
| 02:31:12,030 | 02:31:15,030 | 所以他都必須符合水土保鮮技術規範 |
| 02:31:15,030 | 02:31:17,030 | 的要求去做改正 |
| 02:31:17,030 | 02:31:19,030 | 所以主管機關在下的時候 |
| 02:31:19,030 | 02:31:21,030 | 他必須要合情合理 |
| 02:31:21,030 | 02:31:23,030 | 去看照規範的 |
| 02:31:23,030 | 02:31:25,030 | 水土保鮮技術規範 |
| 02:31:25,030 | 02:31:28,030 | 有地方政府一失誤狀況去做改善 |
| 02:31:30,480 | 02:31:31,480 | 是 |
| 02:31:31,740 | 02:31:34,740 | 也的確目前在執行的過程當中 |
| 02:31:34,740 | 02:31:37,740 | 都有讓這個 |
| 02:31:38,520 | 02:31:40,520 | 去限期改善 |
| 02:31:41,510 | 02:31:42,510 | 那現在你說 |
| 02:31:42,510 | 02:31:44,510 | 因為在當地的縣市政府 |
| 02:31:44,510 | 02:31:46,510 | 他要去執行的時候 |
| 02:31:46,510 | 02:31:48,510 | 因為我經常說我們訂的法 |
| 02:31:48,510 | 02:31:49,510 | 是要讓當地的縣市政府 |
| 02:31:49,510 | 02:31:51,510 | 他可以執行的了 |
| 02:31:51,510 | 02:31:54,510 | 而且他有一個依據 |
| 02:31:54,510 | 02:31:57,510 | 所以這個依據各縣市政府 |
| 02:31:57,510 | 02:32:00,510 | 22個縣市政府他們的依據 |
| 02:32:00,510 | 02:32:04,510 | 是不是有一個基本的一個 |
| 02:32:04,680 | 02:32:05,680 | 一個規範 |
| 02:32:07,450 | 02:32:09,450 | 就是跟委員報告 |
| 02:32:09,450 | 02:32:11,450 | 就是依照他的樣態 |
| 02:32:11,450 | 02:32:14,450 | 會依照我們的技術規範的 |
| 02:32:14,450 | 02:32:16,450 | 作業的一般的期程 |
| 02:32:16,450 | 02:32:18,450 | 去限定他的期間 |
| 02:32:18,450 | 02:32:20,450 | 他有一個標準 |
| 02:32:20,450 | 02:32:22,450 | 所以說這個樣態太多 |
| 02:32:22,450 | 02:32:25,450 | 沒有辦法在這裡做這樣的規範 |
| 02:32:25,450 | 02:32:27,450 | 就是說不管你的樣態是怎麼樣 |
| 02:32:27,450 | 02:32:29,450 | 但是我們目前為止 |
| 02:32:29,450 | 02:32:31,450 | 還是有一個基本的標準 |
| 02:32:31,450 | 02:32:34,450 | 對 技術規範裡面的作業方式 |
| 02:32:47,430 | 02:32:48,430 | 我再問一下 |
| 02:32:48,430 | 02:32:50,430 | 所以你們把你們的第三項 |
| 02:32:50,430 | 02:32:52,430 | 前面那些公有或私人三破地 |
| 02:32:52,430 | 02:32:53,430 | 國公有鄰區 |
| 02:32:53,430 | 02:32:54,430 | 他人私有鄰區 |
| 02:32:54,430 | 02:32:56,430 | 那些全部都 |
| 02:32:57,840 | 02:32:59,840 | 我要跟委員說 |
| 02:32:59,840 | 02:33:01,840 | 為擬具水保計畫 |
| 02:33:01,840 | 02:33:02,840 | 不管你背後 |
| 02:33:02,840 | 02:33:04,840 | 到底有沒有合法使用權 |
| 02:33:04,840 | 02:33:06,840 | 就說你到底是地主 |
| 02:33:06,840 | 02:33:07,840 | 還是不是地主 |
| 02:33:07,840 | 02:33:08,840 | 是侵佔別人土地來 |
| 02:33:08,840 | 02:33:10,840 | 都會適用第二項 |
| 02:33:10,840 | 02:33:12,840 | 因為你沒有經過主管機關核定 |
| 02:33:12,840 | 02:33:15,840 | 所以在裡面的辦法 |
| 02:33:15,840 | 02:33:17,840 | 就是把它就是把我們這個 |
| 02:33:17,840 | 02:33:18,840 | 我們就認定是第二項的情況 |
| 02:33:18,840 | 02:33:20,840 | 因為你沒有擬具水保機關 |
| 02:33:20,840 | 02:33:21,840 | 送主管機關核定 |
| 02:33:21,840 | 02:33:22,840 | 對不對 |
| 02:33:22,840 | 02:33:23,840 | 不管你什麼 |
| 02:33:23,840 | 02:33:25,840 | 不管你是侵佔別人 |
| 02:33:25,840 | 02:33:26,840 | 你有沒有合法使用權 |
| 02:33:26,840 | 02:33:28,840 | 你外觀上就是沒有擬水保計畫 |
| 02:33:28,840 | 02:33:29,840 | 送主管機關核定 |
| 02:33:29,840 | 02:33:32,840 | 所以他會被第二項涵蓋進來了 |
| 02:33:35,250 | 02:33:39,250 | 那如果你現在找不到違規行為人的話 |
| 02:33:39,250 | 02:33:40,250 | 會怎麼辦 |
| 02:33:40,250 | 02:33:41,250 | 第三項有講 |
| 02:33:41,250 | 02:33:42,250 | 不是 |
| 02:33:42,250 | 02:33:43,250 | 找不到違規行為人的話 |
| 02:33:43,250 | 02:33:44,250 | 就會通知地主 |
| 02:33:49,100 | 02:33:51,100 | 由地主來處理 |
| 02:33:52,950 | 02:33:54,950 | 可是你的第三項 |
| 02:33:54,950 | 02:33:55,950 | 感覺不是這樣寫 |
| 02:33:55,950 | 02:33:58,950 | 這個第一這個也是我一併討論 |
| 02:33:58,950 | 02:34:00,950 | 因為這個最後你說使用人 |
| 02:34:00,950 | 02:34:02,950 | 或所有權人同意 |
| 02:34:02,950 | 02:34:03,950 | 那你的主管機關單位 |
| 02:34:03,950 | 02:34:05,950 | 應通知經營人 |
| 02:34:05,950 | 02:34:08,950 | 使用人或所有權人限期改善 |
| 02:34:08,950 | 02:34:09,950 | 我們現在在做的 |
| 02:34:09,950 | 02:34:12,950 | 就譬如我給你做你這堆 |
| 02:34:12,950 | 02:34:14,950 | 那一般都是經營者 |
| 02:34:14,950 | 02:34:16,950 | 他第一順位要負責 |
| 02:34:16,950 | 02:34:17,950 | 是不是 |
| 02:34:17,950 | 02:34:19,950 | 那地主是到最後 |
| 02:34:19,950 | 02:34:20,950 | 對 |
| 02:34:20,950 | 02:34:22,950 | 一落跑也找不到了 |
| 02:34:22,950 | 02:34:23,950 | 地主要負全責 |
| 02:34:23,950 | 02:34:24,950 | 是不是 |
| 02:34:24,950 | 02:34:26,950 | 那你直接把它同步 |
| 02:34:26,950 | 02:34:28,950 | 同步通知的時候 |
| 02:34:28,950 | 02:34:30,950 | 會不會讓人家以為 |
| 02:34:30,950 | 02:34:32,950 | 就是地主的這個 |
| 02:34:33,700 | 02:34:35,700 | 那這三個 |
| 02:34:35,700 | 02:34:37,700 | 有沒有那個數位問題 |
| 02:34:37,700 | 02:34:38,700 | 你現在在執行的 |
| 02:34:38,700 | 02:34:40,700 | 有數位問題嗎 |
| 02:34:40,700 | 02:34:42,700 | 地主是在最後嗎 |
| 02:34:42,700 | 02:34:43,700 | 我跟委員講 |
| 02:34:43,700 | 02:34:45,700 | 你剛剛講的是成株人 |
| 02:34:45,700 | 02:34:47,700 | 成株人違規 |
| 02:34:47,700 | 02:34:49,700 | 成株人是有合法使用權人 |
| 02:34:49,700 | 02:34:50,700 | 因為他有成株權 |
| 02:34:50,700 | 02:34:51,700 | 他在另外的土地 |
| 02:34:51,700 | 02:34:52,700 | 他就不是第三項 |
| 02:34:52,700 | 02:34:53,700 | 無合法使用權 |
| 02:34:53,700 | 02:34:54,700 | 我們真的是在講 |
| 02:34:54,700 | 02:34:57,700 | 你完全沒有任何使用權的部分 |
| 02:34:57,700 | 02:34:58,700 | 所以成株人跟地主 |
| 02:34:58,700 | 02:34:59,700 | 成株人去開發 |
| 02:34:59,700 | 02:35:00,700 | 他沒有擬具 |
| 02:35:00,700 | 02:35:01,700 | 我會罰成株人 |
| 02:35:02,410 | 02:35:03,410 | 我會罰成株人 |
| 02:35:03,410 | 02:35:05,410 | 那第三項是無合法使用權 |
| 02:35:05,410 | 02:35:06,410 | 是說你任何權利都沒有 |
| 02:35:06,410 | 02:35:08,410 | 你去侵占別人土地 |
| 02:35:08,410 | 02:35:10,410 | 就如剛剛委員之前提到 |
| 02:35:10,410 | 02:35:11,410 | 你沒有經過統一 |
| 02:35:11,410 | 02:35:13,410 | 擅自去開發的那種人 |
| 02:35:13,410 | 02:35:17,410 | 你就是去侵占人家土地的這種人 |
| 02:35:17,410 | 02:35:18,410 | 所以這個是在講 |
| 02:35:18,410 | 02:35:19,410 | 第三項這種人 |
| 02:35:19,410 | 02:35:21,410 | 那如果地主跟成株戶的問題 |
| 02:35:21,410 | 02:35:23,410 | 是他們之間的問題 |
| 02:35:23,410 | 02:35:24,410 | 誰挖我就找誰 |
| 02:35:26,080 | 02:35:27,080 | 他會是在第二項 |
| 02:35:28,970 | 02:35:30,970 | 最後找不到還是地主要付全權 |
| 02:35:30,970 | 02:35:31,970 | 所以的確委員剛剛有講的 |
| 02:35:31,970 | 02:35:33,970 | 完全找不到違規行為人 |
| 02:35:33,970 | 02:35:35,970 | 那我也贊同委員 |
| 02:35:35,970 | 02:35:37,970 | 如果這個部分也要處理的話 |
| 02:35:37,970 | 02:35:39,970 | 我們可能就是說 |
| 02:35:39,970 | 02:35:41,970 | 那個無法獲取 |
| 02:35:41,970 | 02:35:43,970 | 我們前面前項違規行為人 |
| 02:35:43,970 | 02:35:44,970 | 無合法使用權者 |
| 02:35:44,970 | 02:35:46,970 | 與辦理刑期改正事項前 |
| 02:35:46,970 | 02:35:48,970 | 無法取得經營人使用人同意 |
| 02:35:48,970 | 02:35:49,970 | 然後呢 |
| 02:35:49,970 | 02:35:53,970 | 或無法尋得違規行為人時 |
| 02:35:53,970 | 02:35:54,970 | 有沒有 |
| 02:35:54,970 | 02:35:55,970 | 主管通知 |
| 02:35:55,970 | 02:35:57,970 | 主管就歡迎通知經營人使用人 |
| 02:35:57,970 | 02:35:59,970 | 然後去改善 |
| 02:36:01,350 | 02:36:02,350 | 因為當時我們立這個 |
| 02:36:02,350 | 02:36:04,350 | 在後面立這個法律就是說 |
| 02:36:04,350 | 02:36:05,350 | 怕這個違規行為人 |
| 02:36:05,350 | 02:36:06,350 | 你就找不到嘛 |
| 02:36:06,350 | 02:36:08,350 | 因為地主也不知道啊 |
| 02:36:08,350 | 02:36:09,350 | 他也不是成株都不知道 |
| 02:36:09,350 | 02:36:11,350 | 找不到的時候 |
| 02:36:11,350 | 02:36:12,350 | 我才會要求是 |
| 02:36:12,350 | 02:36:15,350 | 地方的主管機關是代為整副嘛 |
| 02:36:15,350 | 02:36:18,350 | 然後再找行為人負擔啊 |
| 02:36:18,350 | 02:36:19,350 | 因為找不到行為人 |
| 02:36:19,350 | 02:36:21,350 | 你怎麼找他 |
| 02:36:21,350 | 02:36:22,350 | 但是你就這樣割著啊 |
| 02:36:22,350 | 02:36:26,350 | 因為違規行為人就是非法的人嘛 |
| 02:36:26,350 | 02:36:28,350 | 那他現在就倒在你的山坡地 |
| 02:36:28,350 | 02:36:29,350 | 也沒有同意什麼都沒有 |
| 02:36:29,350 | 02:36:30,350 | 對不對 |
| 02:36:30,350 | 02:36:34,350 | 那現在如果他這邊量到造成風險危害 |
| 02:36:34,350 | 02:36:38,350 | 所以我才說地方機關主管現在負起責任 |
| 02:36:38,350 | 02:36:40,350 | 那不然你這個風險怎麼辦 |
| 02:36:41,310 | 02:36:43,310 | 小心 |
| 02:36:42,340 | 02:36:44,340 | 這個法治單位 |
| 02:36:44,340 | 02:36:47,340 | 其實剛剛委員點出了你們一個部分 |
| 02:36:47,340 | 02:36:49,340 | 就是你們的思考 |
| 02:36:49,340 | 02:36:52,340 | 都是站在有你具水保計畫的 |
| 02:36:52,340 | 02:36:54,340 | 那他的水保計畫怎麼樣怎麼樣 |
| 02:36:54,340 | 02:36:56,340 | 那為你具水保計畫的 |
| 02:36:56,340 | 02:36:57,340 | 那怎麼樣怎麼樣 |
| 02:36:57,340 | 02:36:59,340 | 然後呢為你具水保計畫的那些行為人 |
| 02:36:59,340 | 02:37:02,340 | 你沒辦法取得同意 |
| 02:37:02,340 | 02:37:04,340 | 那就不能你具水保計畫 |
| 02:37:04,340 | 02:37:06,340 | 所以就怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣 |
| 02:37:06,340 | 02:37:07,340 | 好那跑出一個項目 |
| 02:37:07,340 | 02:37:08,340 | 就是楊委員所說的 |
| 02:37:08,340 | 02:37:10,340 | 那找不到違規行為人 |
| 02:37:10,340 | 02:37:11,340 | 也是目前主席關切的 |
| 02:37:11,340 | 02:37:12,340 | 那該怎麼處理 |
| 02:37:12,340 | 02:37:14,340 | 那我是同意也是認同說 |
| 02:37:14,340 | 02:37:15,340 | 如果找不到違規行為人 |
| 02:37:15,340 | 02:37:17,340 | 當然是要由經營人使用人 |
| 02:37:17,340 | 02:37:19,340 | 或所有權人限期改善 |
| 02:37:19,340 | 02:37:21,340 | 因為這些人一定找得到 |
| 02:37:21,340 | 02:37:23,340 | 因為經營人不可能找不到 |
| 02:37:23,340 | 02:37:24,340 | 使用人也不能找不到 |
| 02:37:24,340 | 02:37:27,340 | 這些都找不到就是所有權人 |
| 02:37:27,340 | 02:37:30,340 | 所有權人一定是可以看得到找得到的 |
| 02:37:30,340 | 02:37:34,340 | 那這些人應該優先的負責去改正 |
| 02:37:34,340 | 02:37:38,340 | 那麼至於說連所有權人都不願意改正 |
| 02:37:38,340 | 02:37:39,340 | 這個就事情大了 |
| 02:37:39,340 | 02:37:42,340 | 這種情況之下那個土地要怎麼處理 |
| 02:37:42,340 | 02:37:43,340 | 這個到時候我們關心 |
| 02:37:43,340 | 02:37:45,340 | 所有權人他應該負責 |
| 02:37:45,340 | 02:37:46,340 | 如果找不到他 |
| 02:37:46,340 | 02:37:49,340 | 我說如果所有權人無法改正的時候 |
| 02:37:49,980 | 02:37:50,980 | 你們要說明是這一個 |
| 02:37:50,980 | 02:37:53,980 | 當所有權人他也無力改正的時候 |
| 02:37:53,980 | 02:37:55,980 | 那行政機關如何 |
| 02:37:55,980 | 02:37:58,980 | 我們就會由行政機關先代為執行 |
| 02:37:58,980 | 02:37:59,980 | 再慢慢處理 |
| 02:37:59,980 | 02:38:00,980 | 對嘛 |
| 02:38:00,980 | 02:38:03,980 | 這個就是我剛剛也一直在講的 |
| 02:38:03,980 | 02:38:06,980 | 因為一般承租的就是最後找地主 |
| 02:38:06,980 | 02:38:08,980 | 那你沒有這個的時候 |
| 02:38:08,980 | 02:38:10,980 | 那當然很多人人頭 |
| 02:38:10,980 | 02:38:12,980 | 你一定他沒有辦法去改善 |
| 02:38:12,980 | 02:38:14,980 | 那是誰 |
| 02:38:14,980 | 02:38:15,980 | 那最後是政府 |
| 02:38:15,980 | 02:38:18,980 | 你講的就對了 |
| 02:38:18,980 | 02:38:20,980 | 如果是沒有人的時候 |
| 02:38:20,980 | 02:38:22,980 | 政府當然就是 |
| 02:38:22,980 | 02:38:26,980 | 代為先改善然後再事後再去追捕 |
| 02:38:26,980 | 02:38:28,980 | 要不然你就爛在那裡 |
| 02:38:28,980 | 02:38:31,980 | 那個等一下主席就是說 |
| 02:38:31,980 | 02:38:34,980 | 其實一定找得到所有權人 |
| 02:38:34,980 | 02:38:36,980 | 只是所有權人有沒有能力改正 |
| 02:38:36,980 | 02:38:39,980 | 那如果所有權人無能力改正 |
| 02:38:39,980 | 02:38:41,980 | 那當然國家就會介入 |
| 02:38:41,980 | 02:38:44,980 | 那國家介入去代為執行的時候 |
| 02:38:44,980 | 02:38:46,980 | 後續再跟所有權人求償 |
| 02:38:46,980 | 02:38:48,980 | 那這個部分是規定在哪裡 |
| 02:38:48,980 | 02:38:50,980 | 因為現在主席的問題是 |
| 02:38:50,980 | 02:38:52,980 | 如果我這裡不寫 |
| 02:38:52,980 | 02:38:54,980 | 那你後面最後這一段國家執行的時候 |
| 02:38:54,980 | 02:38:55,980 | 是依哪些法 |
| 02:38:55,980 | 02:38:58,980 | 其實我也因為我在地方租管機關也待過 |
| 02:38:58,980 | 02:39:01,980 | 其實我們就會跟所有權人 |
| 02:39:01,980 | 02:39:03,980 | 先代為執行之後 |
| 02:39:03,980 | 02:39:04,980 | 就讓他求償 |
| 02:39:04,980 | 02:39:06,980 | 那求償他如果拿不出來 |
| 02:39:06,980 | 02:39:07,980 | 他的土地會被拍賣 |
| 02:39:07,980 | 02:39:08,980 | 大概是這樣 |
| 02:39:08,980 | 02:39:11,980 | 那這個你們把這個法令一去說明一下 |
| 02:39:11,980 | 02:39:12,980 | 這個請你們說明一下 |
| 02:39:12,980 | 02:39:14,980 | 因為在隨法法第24條裡面有一些規範 |
| 02:39:16,160 | 02:39:18,160 | 跟委員講說待履行的部分 |
| 02:39:18,160 | 02:39:22,160 | 我們在隨法法24條就有做規定 |
| 02:39:22,160 | 02:39:24,160 | 那行政執行法也可以做處理 |
| 02:39:24,160 | 02:39:28,160 | 我給你們看一下24條的部分的最後一項 |
| 02:39:28,160 | 02:39:30,160 | 他的第三項 |
| 02:39:30,160 | 02:39:32,160 | 有前二條情形之一者 |
| 02:39:32,160 | 02:39:33,160 | 然後呢 |
| 02:39:33,160 | 02:39:34,160 | 經縣級改正、階級不改正 |
| 02:39:34,160 | 02:39:37,160 | 或實施人不符合水土保持技術規範者 |
| 02:39:37,160 | 02:39:40,160 | 應由主管機關、會同各該目的式委員機關 |
| 02:39:40,160 | 02:39:41,160 | 待為履行 |
| 02:39:41,160 | 02:39:44,160 | 並向隨法義務人徵收費用 |
| 02:39:44,160 | 02:39:45,160 | 然後呢 |
| 02:39:45,160 | 02:39:48,160 | 所以24條的最後一項就有規定 |
| 02:39:48,160 | 02:39:52,160 | 那這一條可能對幾乎所有狀況就可以處理 |
| 02:39:52,160 | 02:39:56,160 | 如果沒有行政執行法也有一個規定 |
| 02:39:56,160 | 02:39:58,160 | 也是一樣有待履行的義務 |
| 02:39:58,160 | 02:39:59,160 | 待履行的條文 |
| 02:39:59,160 | 02:40:00,160 | 那但是這一天 |
| 02:40:00,160 | 02:40:02,160 | 像我的確贊同委員剛剛的說法 |
| 02:40:02,160 | 02:40:04,160 | 就是完全找不到行為人的時候 |
| 02:40:04,160 | 02:40:06,160 | 我們就要通知地主 |
| 02:40:06,160 | 02:40:08,160 | 你要負起這個責任來 |
| 02:40:08,160 | 02:40:10,160 | 所以我們的第三項是不是在 |
| 02:40:10,160 | 02:40:12,160 | 無法取得機遇人、使用人或所有權人同意 |
| 02:40:12,160 | 02:40:14,160 | 後面我們再往下加 |
| 02:40:14,160 | 02:40:16,160 | 我們在鬥點之後寫說 |
| 02:40:16,160 | 02:40:20,160 | 或無法尋得那個違規行為人時 |
| 02:40:20,160 | 02:40:25,160 | 那鬥點主管機關應通知經營人、使用人或所有人 |
| 02:40:25,160 | 02:40:26,160 | 獻起改正 |
| 02:40:26,160 | 02:40:28,160 | 那這樣就完結委員所有的意見 |
| 02:40:28,160 | 02:40:30,160 | 把它融合起來了 |
| 02:40:32,820 | 02:40:37,820 | 或無法尋得那個違規行為人時 |
| 02:40:37,820 | 02:40:40,820 | 那主管機關應通知 |
| 02:40:40,820 | 02:40:44,820 | 經營人、使用人或所有權人獻起改正 |
| 02:40:45,600 | 02:40:47,600 | 那至於委員剛剛你講說 |
| 02:40:47,600 | 02:40:49,600 | 如果後面待履行的部分 |
| 02:40:49,600 | 02:40:51,600 | 已經有條文可以出力了 |
| 02:40:53,340 | 02:40:55,340 | 你要把文字寫出來 |
| 02:40:55,340 | 02:40:57,340 | 因為他就剛剛中交部或其他委員 |
| 02:40:57,340 | 02:40:59,340 | 扛勝的就是說 |
| 02:40:59,340 | 02:41:01,340 | 沒有那些待履權還是無能嘛 |
| 02:41:01,340 | 02:41:03,340 | 沒有能力的時候 |
| 02:41:03,340 | 02:41:05,340 | 你要再寫在這邊說 |
| 02:41:05,340 | 02:41:07,340 | 政府就用待委員這個啊 |
| 02:41:07,340 | 02:41:09,340 | 那你才會接到24啊 |
| 02:41:09,340 | 02:41:11,340 | 不是不是,他一定是先通知地主 |
| 02:41:11,340 | 02:41:13,340 | 因為地主你是那塊地的責任 |
| 02:41:13,340 | 02:41:15,340 | 就好像我們建築法規或費心法一樣 |
| 02:41:15,340 | 02:41:17,340 | 我找不到任何行為人 |
| 02:41:17,340 | 02:41:19,340 | 我還是會先找地主 |
| 02:41:19,340 | 02:41:21,340 | 那地主如果無法處理的話 |
| 02:41:21,340 | 02:41:23,340 | 那我會做待履行 |
| 02:41:23,340 | 02:41:25,340 | 那待履行剛剛跟委員講 |
| 02:41:25,340 | 02:41:27,340 | 隨法法24條已經有規定 |
| 02:41:27,340 | 02:41:29,340 | 還有行政執行法也有規定 |
| 02:41:28,980 | 02:41:30,980 | 那我們這邊只是告訴說 |
| 02:41:30,980 | 02:41:32,980 | 義務人我會找誰 |
| 02:41:33,230 | 02:41:35,230 | 那我們剛剛講第二項 |
| 02:41:35,230 | 02:41:37,230 | 我一定先找行為人嘛 |
| 02:41:37,230 | 02:41:39,230 | 違規行為人先找 |
| 02:41:39,230 | 02:41:41,230 | 因為你沒有報住管教我先找行為人 |
| 02:41:41,230 | 02:41:43,230 | 那行為人如果你沒辦法 |
| 02:41:43,230 | 02:41:45,230 | 地主如果沒辦法同意 |
| 02:41:45,230 | 02:41:47,230 | 那你就回到地主 |
| 02:41:47,230 | 02:41:49,230 | 那還有一種就是你找不到行為人 |
| 02:41:49,230 | 02:41:51,230 | 那也是由地主來處理 |
| 02:41:51,230 | 02:41:53,230 | 但地主不是馬上罰他 |
| 02:41:53,230 | 02:41:55,230 | 因為對地主太苛刻 |
| 02:41:55,230 | 02:41:57,230 | 所以一定先通知地主 |
| 02:41:57,230 | 02:41:59,230 | 請你處理,你不處理才會啟動後面的手段 |
| 02:41:58,830 | 02:42:00,830 | 修正了再 |
| 02:42:00,830 | 02:42:02,830 | 好,那24條的第三項就有了 |
| 02:42:02,830 | 02:42:04,830 | 因為我們這是23條 |
| 02:42:04,830 | 02:42:06,830 | 那24條第三項 |
| 02:42:06,830 | 02:42:08,830 | 他寫有前二條之情形之一者 |
| 02:42:08,830 | 02:42:10,830 | 就已經有了 |
| 02:42:16,940 | 02:42:18,940 | 我還是小小抱怨一下 |
| 02:42:18,940 | 02:42:20,940 | 就是說這已經是很久很久很久了 |
| 02:42:20,940 | 02:42:22,940 | 然後當時問你們也都 |
| 02:42:22,940 | 02:42:24,940 | 毫無意義 |
| 02:42:24,940 | 02:42:26,940 | 然後覺得可以遵照委員的狀況來辦理 |
| 02:42:26,940 | 02:42:28,940 | 然後 |
| 02:42:31,060 | 02:42:33,060 | 要交考卷了 |
| 02:42:33,060 | 02:42:35,060 | 才今天再加這個答題內容 |
| 02:42:39,210 | 02:42:41,210 | 好 |
| 02:42:40,950 | 02:42:42,950 | 我殺小寶奶 |
| 02:42:44,550 | 02:42:46,550 | 放學後留下來操作 |
| 02:42:50,130 | 02:42:52,130 | 前向違規行為人 |
| 02:42:54,570 | 02:42:56,570 | 不合法,白馬 |
| 02:43:20,850 | 02:43:22,850 | 我們這個再往上看一下 |
| 02:43:22,850 | 02:43:24,850 | 我整個挑了 |
| 02:43:25,540 | 02:43:27,540 | 用整夜模式 |
| 02:43:45,480 | 02:43:47,480 | 因為按日變按次就同意 |
| 02:43:47,480 | 02:43:49,480 | 因為配合圖裁法 |
| 02:43:49,480 | 02:43:51,480 | 維持行政法一致 |
| 02:43:51,480 | 02:43:53,480 | 因為修正動議也有 |
| 02:43:54,630 | 02:43:56,630 | 好 |
| 02:43:56,620 | 02:43:58,620 | 再往下 |
| 02:44:17,190 | 02:44:19,190 | 好 |
| 02:44:18,440 | 02:44:20,440 | 再往下 |
| 02:44:20,440 | 02:44:22,440 | 前向違規行為人 |
| 02:44:23,970 | 02:44:25,970 | 法事要求,犯的期限改正 |
| 02:44:25,970 | 02:44:27,970 | 我發去的紀念寫好說 |
| 02:44:27,970 | 02:44:29,970 | 我全然不想再做了 |
| 02:44:48,750 | 02:44:50,750 | 我都說了,我全然不想再做了 |
| 02:44:52,390 | 02:44:54,390 | 好 |
| 02:44:55,280 | 02:44:57,280 | 好,其他委員 |
| 02:44:57,280 | 02:44:59,280 | 再看一下 |
| 02:45:13,100 | 02:45:15,100 | 這實在是,我們還要再想想 |
| 02:45:16,610 | 02:45:18,610 | 看一下 |
| 02:45:30,550 | 02:45:32,550 | 其實,這一條條文 |
| 02:45:32,550 | 02:45:34,550 | 也就是說,雖然我們 |
| 02:45:34,550 | 02:45:36,550 | 在條文裡頭,已經 |
| 02:45:36,550 | 02:45:38,550 | 剛剛那個說明的 |
| 02:45:38,550 | 02:45:40,550 | 在條文裡頭 |
| 02:45:40,550 | 02:45:42,550 | 就夯不讓當,不管是 |
| 02:45:42,550 | 02:45:44,550 | 有經營權,沒有經營權的 |
| 02:45:44,550 | 02:45:46,550 | 這一些,他都可以 |
| 02:45:46,550 | 02:45:48,550 | 代執行,你的說法是如此 |
| 02:45:48,550 | 02:45:50,550 | 但是現在就是 |
| 02:45:50,550 | 02:45:52,550 | 為什麼會提出這個 |
| 02:45:52,550 | 02:45:54,550 | 也就是說,目前雖然 |
| 02:45:54,550 | 02:45:56,550 | 有,但是他的 |
| 02:45:56,550 | 02:45:58,550 | 層面,執行起來 |
| 02:45:58,550 | 02:46:00,550 | 不完整 |
| 02:45:59,880 | 02:46:01,880 | 並不完整 |
| 02:46:01,880 | 02:46:03,880 | 所以才會提出這樣子 |
| 02:46:03,880 | 02:46:05,880 | 我個人認為說,應該行政部門 |
| 02:46:05,880 | 02:46:07,880 | 你們要提出說 |
| 02:46:07,880 | 02:46:09,880 | 那我現在已經有這個 |
| 02:46:10,610 | 02:46:12,610 | 執行細則,已經有這個法條 |
| 02:46:12,610 | 02:46:14,610 | 但是為什麼 |
| 02:46:14,610 | 02:46:16,610 | 社會現象就沒有辦法解決 |
| 02:46:17,700 | 02:46:19,700 | 你們應該是針對這個來說明 |
| 02:46:19,700 | 02:46:21,700 | 而不是說 |
| 02:46:21,700 | 02:46:23,700 | 現在第23條 |
| 02:46:23,700 | 02:46:25,700 | 裡頭,你修正這樣 |
| 02:46:25,700 | 02:46:27,700 | 文字很漂亮 |
| 02:46:27,700 | 02:46:29,700 | 但是問題是說 |
| 02:46:29,700 | 02:46:31,700 | 你的執行會不會跟原先的 |
| 02:46:31,700 | 02:46:33,700 | 已經有,那一條擺在那裡 |
| 02:46:33,700 | 02:46:35,700 | 你依照這一條 |
| 02:46:35,700 | 02:46:37,700 | 但是他不依照這一條去執行 |
| 02:46:37,700 | 02:46:39,700 | 問題是這個 |
| 02:46:39,750 | 02:46:41,750 | 那你要怎麼去解決這個問題才是 |
| 02:46:44,260 | 02:46:46,260 | 我跟委員報告 |
| 02:46:46,260 | 02:46:48,260 | 當初您所關心的就是 |
| 02:46:48,260 | 02:46:50,260 | 我們在第二項裡面就講 |
| 02:46:50,260 | 02:46:52,260 | 因為當初並沒有限期改正 |
| 02:46:52,260 | 02:46:54,260 | 就是說你自己違法 |
| 02:46:54,260 | 02:46:56,260 | 沒有相關的計畫的時候 |
| 02:46:56,260 | 02:46:58,260 | 有限期改正第一項 |
| 02:46:58,260 | 02:47:00,260 | 但第二項就是沒有的時候 |
| 02:47:00,260 | 02:47:02,260 | 並沒有通知限期改正 |
| 02:47:02,260 | 02:47:04,260 | 所以他可以無限的 |
| 02:47:04,260 | 02:47:06,260 | 拖破無限的怎麼樣 |
| 02:47:06,260 | 02:47:08,260 | 所以我們就為了解決這個問題 |
| 02:47:08,260 | 02:47:10,260 | 特別加了限期改正 |
| 02:47:10,260 | 02:47:12,260 | 這樣的話就能夠讓 |
| 02:47:11,210 | 02:47:13,210 | 不管是原來 |
| 02:47:13,210 | 02:47:15,210 | 不依照隨保法的部分 |
| 02:47:15,210 | 02:47:17,210 | 跟完全沒有提隨保法的部分 |
| 02:47:17,210 | 02:47:19,210 | 都 |
| 02:47:18,680 | 02:47:20,680 | 都有處理的方式 |
| 02:47:20,680 | 02:47:22,680 | 然後第三條就是處理 |
| 02:47:21,960 | 02:47:23,960 | 要改正的時候怎麼辦 |
| 02:47:23,960 | 02:47:25,960 | 就是他要地主同意 |
| 02:47:25,960 | 02:47:27,960 | 地主如果不同意的時候 |
| 02:47:27,960 | 02:47:29,960 | 或者是找不到這些違規行為的人的時候 |
| 02:47:29,960 | 02:47:31,960 | 我們怎麼辦 |
| 02:47:31,960 | 02:47:33,960 | 都沒辦法處理的時候才會落到24條 |
| 02:47:33,960 | 02:47:35,960 | 由主管機關代為覺醒 |
| 02:47:35,960 | 02:47:37,960 | 代為處理 |
| 02:47:37,960 | 02:47:39,960 | 然後後續才去做相關的追查 |
| 02:47:43,980 | 02:47:45,980 | 就是說精神上有符合 |
| 02:47:45,980 | 02:47:49,980 | 就是我當時要立法的一個目的要求 |
| 02:47:49,980 | 02:47:53,980 | 我大致上看過文字以及後續 |
| 02:47:53,980 | 02:47:55,980 | 我比較關心是代為旅行 |
| 02:47:55,980 | 02:47:57,980 | 另外 |
| 02:47:57,980 | 02:47:59,980 | 在這一條如果是這樣子的話 |
| 02:47:59,980 | 02:48:01,980 | 等一下的我的32條 |
| 02:48:01,980 | 02:48:03,980 | 就是等一下我們再討論 |
| 02:48:03,980 | 02:48:05,980 | 就是我還是希望有罰則 |
| 02:48:05,980 | 02:48:07,980 | 因為現在倒下去之後 |
| 02:48:07,980 | 02:48:09,980 | 就是找不到人 |
| 02:48:09,980 | 02:48:11,980 | 然後就落在那邊 |
| 02:48:11,980 | 02:48:13,980 | 然後就落在那邊就有風險 |
| 02:48:13,980 | 02:48:15,980 | 那我覺得這個我們政府機關 |
| 02:48:15,980 | 02:48:17,980 | 應該負起這個責任 |
| 02:48:17,980 | 02:48:19,980 | 那我覺得你們這樣寫 |
| 02:48:19,980 | 02:48:21,980 | 我OK啦我這樣看起來 |
| 02:48:21,980 | 02:48:23,980 | 是有達到精神好不好 |
| 02:48:25,520 | 02:48:27,520 | 好那我們就照這個修正通過 |
| 02:48:32,090 | 02:48:34,090 | 好接下來進行第32條 |
| 02:48:38,200 | 02:48:40,200 | 32條的部分我們是 |
| 02:48:40,200 | 02:48:42,200 | 支持委員提供罰金的上限 |
| 02:48:42,200 | 02:48:44,200 | 但是我們還是建議 |
| 02:48:44,200 | 02:48:46,200 | 維持罰金 |
| 02:48:46,200 | 02:48:48,200 | 就是不定下限 |
| 02:48:48,590 | 02:48:50,590 | 違規的樣態有非常多 |
| 02:48:50,590 | 02:48:52,590 | 那有小有大的部分 |
| 02:48:52,590 | 02:48:54,590 | 那如果說有定下限的時候 |
| 02:48:54,590 | 02:48:56,590 | 如果是比較輕微的違規的時候 |
| 02:48:56,590 | 02:49:00,590 | 那可能會造成比較多的一些問題 |
| 02:49:01,640 | 02:49:03,640 | 好 |
| 02:49:04,520 | 02:49:06,520 | 那上線就看尊重委員討論的一個 |
| 02:49:10,060 | 02:49:12,060 | 修正通過是 |
| 02:49:12,060 | 02:49:14,060 | 上限是2500萬 |
| 02:49:14,060 | 02:49:16,060 | 然後那個行程 |
| 02:49:16,060 | 02:49:18,060 | 因為這是對齊這個圖財法的 |
| 02:49:19,270 | 02:49:21,270 | 你們今天 |
| 02:49:21,270 | 02:49:23,270 | 修正的 |
| 02:49:25,140 | 02:49:27,140 | 下線不要訂 |
| 02:49:27,140 | 02:49:29,140 | 那2500萬就看主席跟委員 |
| 02:49:29,140 | 02:49:31,140 | 因為這是對齊的圖財法 |
| 02:49:31,860 | 02:49:33,860 | 因為我們圖財法已經三讀過了 |
| 02:49:34,220 | 02:49:36,220 | 不要訂下限 |
| 02:49:36,220 | 02:49:38,220 | 因為農業的法規 |
| 02:49:38,220 | 02:49:40,220 | 有些農民的一些行為 |
| 02:49:40,220 | 02:49:42,220 | 那如果 |
| 02:49:42,220 | 02:49:44,220 | 有些農民的行為誤觸了這個法規 |
| 02:49:44,220 | 02:49:46,220 | 那就罰到200萬可能過重 |
| 02:49:46,220 | 02:49:48,220 | 所以我們建議說 |
| 02:49:48,220 | 02:49:50,220 | 還是有上限 |
| 02:49:50,220 | 02:49:52,220 | 行政單位去裁量 |
| 02:49:52,890 | 02:49:54,890 | 好 |
| 02:49:53,810 | 02:49:55,810 | 那你們就文字在 |
| 02:49:55,790 | 02:49:57,790 | 訂上限我贊成 |
| 02:49:57,790 | 02:49:59,790 | 下限的不用去訂 |
| 02:49:59,790 | 02:50:01,790 | 因為有時候善良的農民 |
| 02:50:02,640 | 02:50:04,640 | 我知道我知道 |
| 02:50:04,640 | 02:50:06,640 | 文字修正 |
| 02:50:06,600 | 02:50:08,600 | 根據我的修正動議 |
| 02:50:08,650 | 02:50:10,650 | 我 |
| 02:50:10,150 | 02:50:12,150 | 委員您的修正動議其實就是 |
| 02:50:12,150 | 02:50:14,150 | 您的修正動議就是 |
| 02:50:14,150 | 02:50:16,150 | 左邊修正你只要把那個新台幣200萬 |
| 02:50:16,150 | 02:50:18,150 | 以上這幾個字殺掉就可以了 |
| 02:50:18,150 | 02:50:20,150 | 就是得幣第一項 |
| 02:50:20,150 | 02:50:22,150 | 就是得幣課2500萬以下 |
| 02:50:22,150 | 02:50:24,150 | 罰金 |
| 02:50:23,750 | 02:50:25,750 | OK |
| 02:50:27,230 | 02:50:29,230 | 我可以啊就再修正 |
| 02:50:29,590 | 02:50:31,590 | 好 |
| 02:50:53,430 | 02:50:55,430 | 用現行條文 |
| 02:50:55,430 | 02:50:57,430 | 我們的罰金的上限都尊重委員的意見調高 |
| 02:50:57,430 | 02:50:59,430 | 其他的部分不要動 |
| 02:51:01,010 | 02:51:03,010 | 其他的部分不要動就用現行條文來看 |
| 02:51:05,400 | 02:51:07,400 | 謝謝 |
| 02:51:08,810 | 02:51:10,810 | 就是有關於罰金的額度我們都同意委員您的調 |
| 02:51:15,300 | 02:51:17,300 | 好 |
| 02:51:17,800 | 02:51:19,800 | 現行條文 |
| 02:51:19,340 | 02:51:21,340 | 你們把文字寫出來 |
| 02:51:21,340 | 02:51:23,340 | 我們就直接這邊委員簽了就提修正 |
| 02:51:23,340 | 02:51:25,340 | 再修正動議就好了 |
| 02:51:25,340 | 02:51:27,340 | 然後金額就是委員的金額 |
| 02:51:27,340 | 02:51:29,340 | 比如說您後面那個 |
| 02:51:29,340 | 02:51:31,340 | 有致人於死 |
| 02:51:31,340 | 02:51:33,340 | 致人於死委員您要的是1億元 |
| 02:51:33,340 | 02:51:35,340 | 對不對 |
| 02:51:35,340 | 02:51:37,340 | 那個地方改1億元 |
| 02:51:37,340 | 02:51:39,340 | 那如果致重傷的部分來講 |
| 02:51:39,340 | 02:51:41,340 | 改成8000萬 |
| 02:51:41,340 | 02:51:43,340 | 所以就這個 |
| 02:51:43,340 | 02:51:45,340 | 現行條文這兩個地方改 |
| 02:51:45,340 | 02:51:47,340 | 然後過失犯的話 |
| 02:51:47,300 | 02:51:49,300 | 您是現在過失犯第三項的部分 |
| 02:51:49,300 | 02:51:51,300 | 現在過失犯第三項的部分 |
| 02:51:51,300 | 02:51:53,300 | 現在過失犯第三項的部分 |
| 02:51:53,270 | 02:51:55,270 | 改喔 |
| 02:51:55,270 | 02:51:57,270 | 過失犯沒有改 |
| 02:51:57,270 | 02:51:59,270 | 就是100萬嘛 |
| 02:51:59,270 | 02:52:01,270 | 這也是比現行條文調高 |
| 02:52:01,270 | 02:52:03,270 | 那我們也是尊重100萬 |
| 02:52:03,270 | 02:52:05,270 | 那第四項就不動了 |
| 02:52:03,130 | 02:52:05,130 | 第五項也不動 |
| 02:52:07,210 | 02:52:09,210 | 這個你們把文字弄完 |
| 02:52:09,210 | 02:52:11,210 | 我們就直接委員簽修正動議就可以了 |
| 02:52:11,210 | 02:52:13,210 | 再修正動議就好 |
| 02:52:13,210 | 02:52:15,210 | 好不好 |
| 02:52:16,200 | 02:52:18,200 | 通通都用現行條文只是把軍事上線改 |
| 02:52:19,360 | 02:52:21,360 | 就是你們趕快調換我們委員簽再修正動議 |
| 02:52:21,360 | 02:52:23,360 | 這樣子 |
| 02:52:23,360 | 02:52:25,360 | 再唸一次喔 |
| 02:52:25,360 | 02:52:27,360 | 32項第一項的上限是2500萬 |
| 02:52:27,360 | 02:52:29,360 | 第二項 |
| 02:52:29,360 | 02:52:31,360 | 那個致死的話他的上限是1億元 |
| 02:52:31,360 | 02:52:33,360 | 致重傷的上限是8000萬 |
| 02:52:35,290 | 02:52:37,290 | 就這三點幹 |
| 02:52:43,000 | 02:52:45,000 | 那你的刑期那些 |
| 02:52:45,000 | 02:52:47,000 | 我也是按照屠宰法 |
| 02:52:47,000 | 02:52:49,000 | 所以你們那些 |
| 02:52:49,000 | 02:52:51,000 | 我比較建議是說 |
| 02:52:51,000 | 02:52:53,000 | 因為我們有關於刑期 |
| 02:52:53,000 | 02:52:55,000 | 有關於釀成災害 |
| 02:52:55,000 | 02:52:57,000 | 第二項釀成災害 |
| 02:52:57,000 | 02:52:59,000 | 那目前加重期刑1% |
| 02:52:59,000 | 02:53:01,000 | 我覺得這是現行做法 |
| 02:53:01,000 | 02:53:03,000 | 沒有太大的困擾 |
| 02:53:03,000 | 02:53:05,000 | 不要再動它 |
| 02:53:05,000 | 02:53:07,000 | 那刑期的部分你要改成無期徒刑 |
| 02:53:07,000 | 02:53:09,000 | 或一年以上七年以下有期徒刑 |
| 02:53:09,000 | 02:53:11,000 | 可能我們要尊重問一下法務部 |
| 02:53:08,990 | 02:53:12,990 | 是不是符合刑罰的額度 |
| 02:53:15,490 | 02:53:17,490 | 好 了解你的意思 |
| 02:53:17,490 | 02:53:19,490 | 法務部有沒有 |
| 02:53:20,380 | 02:53:22,380 | 有沒有什麼建議 |
| 02:53:27,370 | 02:53:29,370 | 法務部的額度調到這麼高 |
| 02:53:30,510 | 02:53:32,510 | 跟委員說明了 |
| 02:53:33,660 | 02:53:35,660 | 委員的這個提案我知道 |
| 02:53:35,660 | 02:53:37,660 | 大概就是跟最新通過的土石採取法 |
| 02:53:37,660 | 02:53:39,660 | 對阿 |
| 02:53:39,660 | 02:53:41,660 | 對標 |
| 02:53:41,660 | 02:53:43,660 | 每一部法律的那個 |
| 02:53:43,660 | 02:53:45,660 | 追求政策目標 |
| 02:53:45,660 | 02:53:47,660 | 還有立法目的不太一樣 |
| 02:53:47,660 | 02:53:49,660 | 土石採取法是不是跟 |
| 02:53:49,660 | 02:53:51,660 | 我們水保法這邊 |
| 02:53:51,660 | 02:53:53,660 | 的整個政策評估是不是 |
| 02:53:53,660 | 02:53:55,660 | 完全一致 |
| 02:53:55,660 | 02:53:57,660 | 這個我尊重主管機關的意見 |
| 02:53:57,660 | 02:53:59,660 | 因為拉的行動非常的高 |
| 02:53:59,660 | 02:54:01,660 | 那如果主管機關 |
| 02:54:01,660 | 02:54:03,660 | 在水土保持的 |
| 02:54:04,260 | 02:54:06,260 | 政策管理上他評估 |
| 02:54:06,260 | 02:54:08,260 | 認為說現行的行動 |
| 02:54:08,260 | 02:54:10,260 | 已經足以規範了 |
| 02:54:10,260 | 02:54:12,260 | 那只是說罰金的部分 |
| 02:54:12,260 | 02:54:14,260 | 那 |
| 02:54:14,260 | 02:54:16,260 | 裁委員的方式就是提高上限 |
| 02:54:16,260 | 02:54:18,260 | 這個部分他們在政策 |
| 02:54:18,260 | 02:54:20,260 | 管理上認為就足以應付 |
| 02:54:20,260 | 02:54:22,260 | 現在實務上的問題 |
| 02:54:22,260 | 02:54:24,260 | 那我想還是尊重主管機關的意見 |
| 02:54:24,260 | 02:54:26,260 | 沒有去動到原來的 |
| 02:54:26,260 | 02:54:28,260 | 法定構成要件跟行動 |
| 02:54:29,310 | 02:54:31,310 | 然後我要跟委員說明一下 |
| 02:54:31,310 | 02:54:33,310 | 因為土石採取法裡面的 |
| 02:54:33,310 | 02:54:35,310 | 大部分是業者 |
| 02:54:35,310 | 02:54:37,310 | 土石業者 |
| 02:54:37,310 | 02:54:39,310 | 所以他的下限把他拉高沒有太大的問題 |
| 02:54:39,310 | 02:54:41,310 | 但是我們今天水保法 |
| 02:54:41,310 | 02:54:43,310 | 的那個違規有一般是 |
| 02:54:43,310 | 02:54:45,310 | 很多是自然人 |
| 02:54:45,310 | 02:54:47,310 | 有的是農民 |
| 02:54:47,310 | 02:54:49,310 | 所以如果您後面的那個罰則 |
| 02:54:49,310 | 02:54:51,310 | 就算您的行動下限都把他拉高 |
| 02:54:51,310 | 02:54:53,310 | 恐怕遇到我們這種純農業 |
| 02:54:53,310 | 02:54:55,310 | 或者是自然人那些違規 |
| 02:54:55,310 | 02:54:57,310 | 也都一律適用跟業者 |
| 02:54:57,310 | 02:54:59,310 | 所以我覺得可能有要思考他的 |
| 02:54:59,310 | 02:55:01,310 | 政策這樣適不適當 |
| 02:55:02,240 | 02:55:04,240 | 好 |
| 02:55:03,400 | 02:55:05,400 | 所以我們還是維持這個加重 |
| 02:55:05,400 | 02:55:07,400 | 行情是二分之一 |
| 02:55:07,400 | 02:55:09,400 | 維持線型條文的部分 |
| 02:55:09,400 | 02:55:11,400 | 就是行度的部分 |
| 02:55:11,400 | 02:55:13,400 | 行度的部分都維持線型的條文 |
| 02:55:13,400 | 02:55:15,400 | 因為他的確跟第一項還是有落差 |
| 02:55:15,400 | 02:55:17,400 | 所以你們就是因為 |
| 02:55:17,400 | 02:55:19,400 | 好 了解你的意思 |
| 02:55:19,400 | 02:55:21,400 | 就是還是維持原本 |
| 02:55:21,400 | 02:55:23,400 | 加重其行之二分之一 |
| 02:55:23,400 | 02:55:25,400 | 這裡 |
| 02:55:25,850 | 02:55:27,850 | 但是罰金金額我們就是維持我們的上限 |
| 02:55:27,850 | 02:55:29,850 | 一律標籤那些的 |
| 02:55:31,140 | 02:55:33,140 | 好 那你們就是再寫一下 |
| 02:55:33,140 | 02:55:35,140 | 我們就提再修正統一 |
| 02:55:35,140 | 02:55:37,140 | 讓我們委員簽 好不好 |
| 02:55:37,140 | 02:55:39,140 | 委員就在這 |
| 02:55:41,000 | 02:55:43,000 | 委員那個螢幕的部分來講 |
| 02:55:43,000 | 02:55:45,000 | 就是紅色的部分就是我們修正的部分 |
| 02:55:45,000 | 02:55:47,000 | 其餘的條文都跟線型條文一致 |
| 02:55:50,080 | 02:55:52,080 | 三個額度改 |
| 02:55:51,660 | 02:55:53,660 | 再稍微放大 |
| 02:55:53,250 | 02:55:55,250 | 是那個病 |
| 02:55:55,250 | 02:55:57,250 | 是那個病 |
| 02:55:59,310 | 02:56:01,310 | 是那個病 |
| 02:56:05,990 | 02:56:07,990 | 第一項就是把原來委員的200萬劃掉而已 |
| 02:56:07,990 | 02:56:09,990 | OK |
| 02:56:09,990 | 02:56:11,990 | 好 第二項我看一下 |
| 02:56:12,640 | 02:56:14,640 | 加重刑期二分之一 |
| 02:56:14,640 | 02:56:16,640 | 兌病科新臺幣一億 |
| 02:56:16,640 | 02:56:18,640 | 以下罰金兌病科八千萬元以下罰金 |
| 02:56:20,980 | 02:56:22,980 | 好 |
| 02:56:24,760 | 02:56:26,760 | OK |
| 02:56:25,950 | 02:56:27,950 | 這樣好不好 把它印出來我們這個委員簽名 |
| 02:56:27,950 | 02:56:29,950 | 再修正統一就可以 |
| 02:56:32,100 | 02:56:34,100 | 包括剛剛那一條也是 |
| 02:56:34,360 | 02:56:36,360 | OK |
| 02:56:35,840 | 02:56:37,840 | 就是前面的第23條 |
| 02:56:37,840 | 02:56:39,840 | 32條 |
| 02:56:41,210 | 02:56:43,210 | 233 |
| 02:56:43,210 | 02:56:45,210 | 對阿23條32條都寫出來 |
| 02:56:45,210 | 02:56:47,210 | 印出來我們就再修正統一 |
| 02:56:47,210 | 02:56:49,210 | 我已經說獲什麼 |
| 02:56:48,770 | 02:56:50,770 | 沒有啦 第23啦 |
| 02:56:50,810 | 02:56:52,810 | 會加貨 |
| 02:56:52,810 | 02:56:54,810 | 文字啦 |
| 02:56:54,810 | 02:56:56,810 | 他就是說文字給他寫出來我們看一下 |
| 02:56:56,810 | 02:56:58,810 | 再修正統一 |
| 02:56:58,810 | 02:57:00,810 | 好 第32條就這樣子 |
| 02:57:00,810 | 02:57:02,810 | 再來我們看第33條 |
| 02:57:02,810 | 02:57:04,810 | 那33條也是一樣 |
| 02:57:04,810 | 02:57:06,810 | 我們也同意委員提高罰金 |
| 02:57:06,810 | 02:57:08,810 | 的法案的上限 |
| 02:57:08,810 | 02:57:10,810 | 但是建議為是暗示的處罰 |
| 02:57:10,810 | 02:57:12,810 | 對 我已經改成暗示了 |
| 02:57:12,810 | 02:57:14,810 | 然後罰金不訂下限的規定 |
| 02:57:14,810 | 02:57:16,810 | 這剛才已經都特別提到了 |
| 02:57:18,790 | 02:57:20,790 | 然後委員那個部分 |
| 02:57:20,790 | 02:57:22,790 | 第二項的部分有沒有 |
| 02:57:22,790 | 02:57:24,790 | 那個最下面有沒有 |
| 02:57:24,790 | 02:57:26,790 | 最下面應由誰來負擔這個部分 |
| 02:57:26,790 | 02:57:28,790 | 現行條文是 |
| 02:57:28,790 | 02:57:30,790 | 經營人使用人或所有人 |
| 02:57:30,790 | 02:57:32,790 | 那我們剛剛23條創造一個 |
| 02:57:32,790 | 02:57:34,790 | 我們就想說是違規行為人 |
| 02:57:34,790 | 02:57:36,790 | 所以這邊的第二項 |
| 02:57:36,790 | 02:57:38,790 | 會加 所以我們會優先找 |
| 02:57:38,790 | 02:57:40,790 | 違規行為人 |
| 02:57:40,790 | 02:57:42,790 | 應由違規行為人 |
| 02:57:42,790 | 02:57:44,790 | 經營人使用人或所有人負擔 |
| 02:57:44,790 | 02:57:46,790 | 我們會加這一段 |
| 02:57:46,330 | 02:57:48,330 | 加違規行為人 |
| 02:57:48,100 | 02:57:50,100 | 負擔的部分 |
| 02:57:50,190 | 02:57:54,190 | 然後罰金的額度都 |
| 02:57:54,190 | 02:57:56,190 | 尊重委員的部分調高 |
| 02:57:58,380 | 02:58:00,380 | 就是你們不要下限 |
| 02:58:00,380 | 02:58:02,380 | 下限不要上 不要動 |
| 02:58:02,380 | 02:58:04,380 | 上限這樣子 |
| 02:58:04,380 | 02:58:06,380 | 委員的意見 |
| 02:58:07,320 | 02:58:09,320 | 好 |
| 02:58:08,610 | 02:58:10,610 | 法務局 |
| 02:58:11,560 | 02:58:13,560 | 跟主席說明 |
| 02:58:13,560 | 02:58:15,560 | 就說33條 |
| 02:58:15,560 | 02:58:17,560 | 呃 |
| 02:58:17,570 | 02:58:21,570 | 修正的主要是在第一項的第二款 |
| 02:58:21,570 | 02:58:22,570 | 第二款的後段 |
| 02:58:22,570 | 02:58:24,570 | 增訂了一段未經同意 |
| 02:58:24,570 | 02:58:26,570 | 三資開發經營使用者 |
| 02:58:26,570 | 02:58:28,570 | 的行政處罰 |
| 02:58:28,570 | 02:58:30,570 | 那關於他的裁罰 |
| 02:58:30,570 | 02:58:32,570 | 行政處罰的部分 |
| 02:58:32,570 | 02:58:34,570 | 這個部分我們就尊重主管機關的意見 |
| 02:58:34,570 | 02:58:36,570 | 不過我們必須要提醒 |
| 02:58:36,570 | 02:58:38,570 | 就是說因為第二款 |
| 02:58:38,570 | 02:58:40,570 | 他會連動到第三項 |
| 02:58:40,570 | 02:58:42,570 | 第三項是一個刑事處罰的規定 |
| 02:58:42,570 | 02:58:44,570 | 第三項是一個刑事處罰的規定 |
| 02:58:44,570 | 02:58:46,570 | 第三項是一個刑事處罰的規定 |
| 02:58:46,570 | 02:58:48,570 | 第三項是規定 |
| 02:58:48,570 | 02:58:50,570 | 第一項第二款有這些情形 |
| 02:58:50,570 | 02:58:52,570 | 自生水土流失 |
| 02:58:52,570 | 02:58:54,570 | 他後面有一些那個 |
| 02:58:54,570 | 02:58:56,570 | 刑事處罰的規定 |
| 02:58:56,570 | 02:58:58,570 | 所以呢 |
| 02:58:59,250 | 02:59:01,250 | 這個部分不是只單純 |
| 02:59:01,250 | 02:59:03,250 | 行政處 |
| 02:59:03,250 | 02:59:05,250 | 行政裁罰的部分他會連動到第三項的行政處罰 |
| 02:59:05,250 | 02:59:07,250 | 行政處罰 |
| 02:59:07,250 | 02:59:09,250 | 他規範的這種行為 |
| 02:59:09,250 | 02:59:11,250 | 這種類型 |
| 02:59:11,250 | 02:59:13,250 | 未經同意 |
| 02:59:13,190 | 02:59:15,190 | 擅自開發經營的 |
| 02:59:15,190 | 02:59:17,190 | 這個 |
| 02:59:16,510 | 02:59:18,510 | 處罰的類型 |
| 02:59:18,510 | 02:59:20,510 | 跟32條 |
| 02:59:20,510 | 02:59:22,510 | 前面那一條32條 |
| 02:59:22,510 | 02:59:24,510 | 在公有土地等等 |
| 02:59:24,510 | 02:59:26,510 | 擅自懇職 |
| 02:59:26,510 | 02:59:28,510 | 佔用或者從事 |
| 02:59:28,900 | 02:59:30,900 | 相關的開發經營使用行為 |
| 02:59:30,900 | 02:59:32,900 | 他本來就整條 |
| 02:59:32,900 | 02:59:34,900 | 都有一個完整的刑事處罰規定 |
| 02:59:34,900 | 02:59:36,900 | 所以 |
| 02:59:36,900 | 02:59:38,900 | 這樣的話他會 |
| 02:59:38,900 | 02:59:40,900 | 透過33條 |
| 02:59:40,900 | 02:59:42,900 | 第三項的規定 |
| 02:59:42,900 | 02:59:44,900 | 他會跟32條現有的 |
| 02:59:44,900 | 02:59:46,900 | 刑事處罰規定會產生進合 |
| 02:59:46,900 | 02:59:48,900 | 那要件又不太一樣 |
| 02:59:48,900 | 02:59:50,900 | 因為32條 |
| 02:59:50,900 | 02:59:52,900 | 會拉出來做刑事處罰 |
| 02:59:52,900 | 02:59:54,900 | 但是限定在 |
| 02:59:54,770 | 02:59:56,770 | 林區山坡地 |
| 02:59:57,180 | 02:59:59,180 | 然後他處罰的類型 |
| 02:59:59,180 | 03:00:01,180 | 比我們 |
| 03:00:01,180 | 03:00:03,180 | 後面委員的提案還廣 |
| 03:00:03,180 | 03:00:05,180 | 除了開發行為之外 |
| 03:00:05,180 | 03:00:07,180 | 他還包括 |
| 03:00:07,180 | 03:00:09,180 | 佔用懇職等等 |
| 03:00:10,040 | 03:00:12,040 | 如果在33條 |
| 03:00:12,040 | 03:00:14,040 | 的第二款 |
| 03:00:14,040 | 03:00:16,040 | 後段直接加進去 |
| 03:00:16,040 | 03:00:18,040 | 這一個新增的部分 |
| 03:00:18,040 | 03:00:20,040 | 他會產生 |
| 03:00:20,040 | 03:00:22,040 | 跟32條之間有進合 |
| 03:00:22,040 | 03:00:24,040 | 有矛盾的問題 |
| 03:00:24,040 | 03:00:26,040 | 所以我們是建議說 |
| 03:00:26,040 | 03:00:28,040 | 如果主管機關這邊接受 |
| 03:00:28,040 | 03:00:30,040 | 要增訂這一條 |
| 03:00:30,040 | 03:00:32,040 | 那不要把它直接加在第二款 |
| 03:00:32,040 | 03:00:34,040 | 另立一個第三款 |
| 03:00:34,740 | 03:00:36,740 | 委員您的修正動議 |
| 03:00:36,740 | 03:00:38,740 | 這個部分 |
| 03:00:38,740 | 03:00:40,740 | 法務部講的這個問題都不存在 |
| 03:00:40,740 | 03:00:42,740 | 剛剛委員您的修正動議 |
| 03:00:42,740 | 03:00:44,740 | 33條第一項第二款 |
| 03:00:44,740 | 03:00:46,740 | 他沒有後半段 |
| 03:00:46,740 | 03:00:48,740 | 如果這個拿掉 |
| 03:00:48,740 | 03:00:50,740 | 當然就沒有這個問題了 |
| 03:00:50,740 | 03:00:52,740 | 如果說主管機關要接受的話 |
| 03:00:52,740 | 03:00:54,740 | 我們建議他要另立一款 |
| 03:00:54,740 | 03:00:56,740 | 就不會去牽動到第三項的刑事處罰規定 |
| 03:00:56,740 | 03:00:58,740 | 所以這樣建議 |
| 03:00:58,740 | 03:01:00,740 | 你們把討論到現在 |
| 03:01:00,740 | 03:01:02,740 | 大家最新有共識的 |
| 03:01:02,740 | 03:01:04,740 | 不然那個已經刪掉了 |
| 03:01:04,740 | 03:01:06,740 | 法務部還在講這個內容 |
| 03:01:06,740 | 03:01:08,740 | 沒有因為他剛沒有看 |
| 03:01:08,740 | 03:01:10,740 | 委員的後來修正動議今天才發 |
| 03:01:10,740 | 03:01:12,740 | 那委員您剛的 |
| 03:01:12,740 | 03:01:14,740 | 未經同意我已經跟您說明 |
| 03:01:14,740 | 03:01:16,740 | 是用我們23條的第二項就可以處理了 |
| 03:01:16,740 | 03:01:18,740 | 所以您的罰則那個地方 |
| 03:01:18,740 | 03:01:20,740 | 就可以不用處理 |
| 03:01:20,740 | 03:01:22,740 | 因為他就是當然違法23條第二項 |
| 03:01:22,740 | 03:01:24,740 | 所以他的33條的第一項 |
| 03:01:24,740 | 03:01:26,740 | 第二款就可以處理了 |
| 03:01:26,740 | 03:01:28,740 | 都是一併處理的 |
| 03:01:28,740 | 03:01:30,740 | 所以這邊33條就會非常的單純 |
| 03:01:30,740 | 03:01:32,740 | 就是用現行條文的 |
| 03:01:32,740 | 03:01:34,740 | 您的罰款的額度 |
| 03:01:34,740 | 03:01:36,740 | 我們上限調高 |
| 03:01:36,740 | 03:01:38,740 | 然後第二項 |
| 03:01:38,740 | 03:01:40,740 | 義務人最後段的義務人加了一個違規行為人 |
| 03:01:40,740 | 03:01:42,740 | 因為費用 |
| 03:01:42,740 | 03:01:44,740 | 一定先找違規行為人 |
| 03:01:44,740 | 03:01:46,740 | 這個地方加進來 |
| 03:01:46,740 | 03:01:48,740 | 你現在是在33吧 |
| 03:01:48,740 | 03:01:50,740 | 我再講33對 |
| 03:01:50,740 | 03:01:52,740 | 33第二項有沒有 |
| 03:01:52,740 | 03:01:54,740 | 那您現在提的當然有未經同意 |
| 03:01:54,740 | 03:01:56,740 | 我剛剛是簽您的修正是為了23條來的 |
| 03:01:56,740 | 03:01:58,740 | 那23條我們剛剛處理完畢了 |
| 03:01:58,740 | 03:02:00,740 | 我們現在就處理完畢了嘛 |
| 03:02:00,470 | 03:02:02,470 | 所以他第一項第二款是不用修的 |
| 03:02:02,470 | 03:02:04,470 | 就是維持我們現在 |
| 03:02:04,470 | 03:02:06,470 | 第一項第二款的部分 |
| 03:02:06,470 | 03:02:09,470 | 所以我就說你把討論到現在的文字 |
| 03:02:09,470 | 03:02:11,470 | 你把它提出來嘛 |
| 03:02:11,470 | 03:02:13,470 | 不然每個單位都還在講過去式 |
| 03:02:13,470 | 03:02:16,470 | 已經討論過了還在講 |
| 03:02:16,470 | 03:02:18,470 | 先列了 |
| 03:02:20,460 | 03:02:22,460 | 我們33條罰金額度 |
| 03:02:22,460 | 03:02:24,460 | 委員上限是300 |
| 03:02:24,460 | 03:02:26,460 | 那個罰制處不要那麼緊張 |
| 03:02:26,460 | 03:02:30,460 | 主席我大概充分了解主席心裡的明白 |
| 03:02:30,460 | 03:02:32,460 | 就是主席一直很在意 |
| 03:02:32,460 | 03:02:34,460 | 他們的提案內容對於那些行為人 |
| 03:02:34,460 | 03:02:36,460 | 他本來就是沒有經過同意的人 |
| 03:02:36,460 | 03:02:38,460 | 那個在已經23條已經處理了 |
| 03:02:38,460 | 03:02:40,460 | 那我們現在原條文的33條 |
| 03:02:40,460 | 03:02:42,460 | 他的第二款 |
| 03:02:42,460 | 03:02:44,460 | 他要寫 |
| 03:02:44,460 | 03:02:46,460 | 或違反第23條規定 |
| 03:02:46,460 | 03:02:48,460 | 那因為23條規定已經把 |
| 03:02:48,460 | 03:02:52,460 | 違規行為人已經放進去了 |
| 03:02:52,460 | 03:02:56,460 | 所以23條經過那樣的修改之後 |
| 03:02:56,460 | 03:02:58,460 | 他已經後面不用再加上 |
| 03:02:58,460 | 03:03:00,460 | 未經同意而擅自開發經營使用者 |
| 03:03:00,460 | 03:03:02,460 | 這些文字這樣 |
| 03:03:02,460 | 03:03:04,460 | 因為那在23條已經放到 |
| 03:03:04,460 | 03:03:06,460 | 所謂違規行為人的裡面 |
| 03:03:06,460 | 03:03:08,460 | 只要那23條是屬於違規行為人 |
| 03:03:08,460 | 03:03:12,460 | 他就會適用到33條的第二款 |
| 03:03:12,460 | 03:03:14,460 | 所以不用在後面那一段 |
| 03:03:14,790 | 03:03:16,790 | 因為當時我們提出來 |
| 03:03:16,790 | 03:03:18,790 | 是32條是未經同意的 |
| 03:03:18,790 | 03:03:20,790 | 那33條是說 |
| 03:03:20,790 | 03:03:22,790 | 我同意嘛 |
| 03:03:22,790 | 03:03:24,790 | 然後他違規使用 |
| 03:03:24,790 | 03:03:26,790 | 就是把這個分出來 |
| 03:03:26,790 | 03:03:28,790 | 然後精神好不好 |
| 03:03:28,790 | 03:03:30,790 | 然後他該有的罰則拉高 |
| 03:03:30,790 | 03:03:32,790 | 就這樣子 |
| 03:03:32,030 | 03:03:34,030 | 就這樣子 |
| 03:03:35,960 | 03:03:37,960 | 好 |
| 03:03:37,960 | 03:03:39,960 | 阿英出來了嗎 |
| 03:03:40,990 | 03:03:42,990 | 決定了 |
| 03:03:43,790 | 03:03:45,790 | 我們沒有帶音感機來 |
| 03:03:48,100 | 03:03:50,100 | 好 |
| 03:03:49,530 | 03:03:51,530 | 現在電腦系統重新開始 |
| 03:04:01,680 | 03:04:03,680 | 33條 |
| 03:04:03,680 | 03:04:05,680 | 螢幕上是33條的部分 |
| 03:04:05,680 | 03:04:07,680 | 已經在印了 |
| 03:04:07,130 | 03:04:09,130 | 第一個部分 |
| 03:04:09,130 | 03:04:11,130 | 往下 |
| 03:04:11,130 | 03:04:13,130 | 第二項 |
| 03:04:13,130 | 03:04:15,130 | 違反23條規定 |
| 03:04:15,130 | 03:04:17,130 | 那為什麼23條已經把違規行為人放進去了 |
| 03:04:17,130 | 03:04:19,130 | 是 |
| 03:04:22,740 | 03:04:24,740 | 再往下 |
| 03:04:24,740 | 03:04:26,740 | 就這裡 |
| 03:04:26,740 | 03:04:28,740 | 就加了一個違規行為人 |
| 03:04:35,260 | 03:04:37,260 | 再往下看一下 |
| 03:04:37,260 | 03:04:39,260 | 往下應該就沒有了 |
| 03:04:38,920 | 03:04:40,920 | 就是上限調高而已 |
| 03:04:43,600 | 03:04:45,600 | 好這樣子OK |
| 03:04:47,160 | 03:04:49,160 | 那就是印出來我們幾個委員 |
| 03:04:49,160 | 03:04:51,160 | 簽一下再修正同意好不好 |
| 03:04:56,540 | 03:04:58,540 | 好 |
| 03:05:00,590 | 03:05:02,590 | 文字還沒出來 |
| 03:05:02,590 | 03:05:04,590 | 沒辦法念 |
| 03:05:04,590 | 03:05:06,590 | 簽完你之後再簽 |
| 03:05:06,590 | 03:05:08,590 | 可以吧 |
| 03:05:12,570 | 03:05:14,570 | 等一下再宣讀吧 |
| 03:05:15,150 | 03:05:17,150 | 我們先進行往下的好不好 |
| 03:05:19,040 | 03:05:21,040 | 你們還是一樣要印出來給我們 |
| 03:05:21,040 | 03:05:23,040 | 好 |
| 03:05:29,500 | 03:05:31,500 | 好我們現在行商討論事項三 |
| 03:05:31,500 | 03:05:33,500 | 有關山破地保疫利用條例 |
| 03:05:33,500 | 03:05:35,500 | 部分條文相關修正長 |
| 03:05:35,500 | 03:05:37,500 | 跟我拍的版本及政天才委員 |
| 03:05:37,500 | 03:05:39,500 | 等等之修正動議 |
| 03:05:39,500 | 03:05:41,500 | 以本次會議一併審查 |
| 03:05:41,500 | 03:05:43,500 | 那我們先從第二條 |
| 03:05:43,500 | 03:05:45,500 | 開始先請農業部 |
| 03:05:45,500 | 03:05:47,500 | 說明 |
| 03:05:47,500 | 03:05:49,500 | 第二條也是一樣就是配合行政院主持改造 |
| 03:05:50,470 | 03:05:52,470 | 就是我們自治委員的版本 |
| 03:05:56,140 | 03:05:58,140 | 好所以我們 |
| 03:05:58,660 | 03:06:00,660 | 就 |
| 03:06:00,190 | 03:06:04,190 | 萬美齡委員林丹化文政天才委員等人的提案 |
| 03:06:04,190 | 03:06:06,190 | 加按通過 |
| 03:06:07,470 | 03:06:09,470 | 對還有謝一芬委員 |
| 03:06:09,470 | 03:06:11,470 | 通過 |
| 03:06:12,060 | 03:06:14,060 | 現在的話 |
| 03:06:14,280 | 03:06:16,280 | 民眾黨團第十條 |
| 03:06:16,280 | 03:06:18,280 | 第十條的部分 |
| 03:06:18,280 | 03:06:20,280 | 委員這邊寫一個未經同意的部分 |
| 03:06:20,280 | 03:06:22,280 | 可是在現行的文字 |
| 03:06:22,280 | 03:06:24,280 | 那個擅自 |
| 03:06:24,280 | 03:06:26,280 | 其實就已經涵蓋了未經同意 |
| 03:06:26,280 | 03:06:28,280 | 所以我們是建議 |
| 03:06:28,280 | 03:06:30,280 | 為行現行的一個規定 |
| 03:06:35,110 | 03:06:37,110 | 三波未經同意不得擅自 |
| 03:06:40,640 | 03:06:42,640 | 對啊三字這個字眼 |
| 03:06:42,640 | 03:06:44,640 | 當初第十條 |
| 03:06:44,640 | 03:06:46,640 | 跟委員說明一下當初第十條 |
| 03:06:46,640 | 03:06:48,640 | 在公有或他人三波地內不得擅自 |
| 03:06:48,640 | 03:06:50,640 | 懇職佔用 |
| 03:06:50,640 | 03:06:52,640 | 擅自的意思一定就是沒有經過同意 |
| 03:06:53,620 | 03:06:55,620 | 所以他這個文字內涵已經包含未經同意的意思了 |
| 03:06:55,620 | 03:06:57,620 | 所以我們建議是不是 |
| 03:06:57,620 | 03:06:59,620 | 維持現行條文不予修正 |
| 03:06:59,620 | 03:07:01,620 | 因為文意是一樣的 |
| 03:07:06,580 | 03:07:08,580 | 我知道 |
| 03:07:08,580 | 03:07:10,580 | 當初我們為什麼要下這個的話 |
| 03:07:10,580 | 03:07:12,580 | 再回想一下 |
| 03:07:13,800 | 03:07:15,800 | 對啊 |
| 03:07:26,120 | 03:07:28,120 | 未經同意不得懇職 |
| 03:07:28,120 | 03:07:30,120 | 這跟不得擅自懇職是一樣 |
| 03:07:30,120 | 03:07:32,120 | 不用多好嘛 |
| 03:07:32,120 | 03:07:34,120 | 未經同意不得懇職 |
| 03:07:35,400 | 03:07:37,400 | 對也是一樣 |
| 03:07:39,350 | 03:07:41,350 | 濃度這樣可以嗎 |
| 03:07:41,040 | 03:07:43,040 | 就是未經同意不得懇職 |
| 03:07:45,600 | 03:07:47,600 | 跟不得擅自可能是一樣 |
| 03:07:48,730 | 03:07:50,730 | 感覺未經同意比較理解 |
| 03:07:53,090 | 03:07:55,090 | 我自治是主席啦 |
| 03:07:55,090 | 03:07:57,090 | 因為未經同意就要有一個人同意嘛 |
| 03:07:57,090 | 03:07:59,090 | 那擅自是 |
| 03:07:59,090 | 03:08:01,090 | 我就大主大義台語就不一樣了 |
| 03:08:01,090 | 03:08:03,090 | 不經過你同意我不行做 |
| 03:08:03,090 | 03:08:05,090 | 我不行大主大義做 |
| 03:08:05,090 | 03:08:07,090 | 當然才不經過同意 |
| 03:08:07,090 | 03:08:09,090 | 因為我們也不會那麼無聊說為什麼要加這個 |
| 03:08:09,090 | 03:08:11,090 | 因為那時候就是你沒有經過這個同意 |
| 03:08:11,090 | 03:08:13,090 | 因為擅自就是 |
| 03:08:14,450 | 03:08:16,450 | 可以嗎 |
| 03:08:16,450 | 03:08:18,450 | 全人同意啊 |
| 03:08:18,450 | 03:08:20,450 | 擅自就包含 |
| 03:08:19,360 | 03:08:21,360 | 更明確一點 |
| 03:08:23,060 | 03:08:25,060 | 那是不是未經同意不得懇職 |
| 03:08:27,410 | 03:08:29,410 | 因為如果未經同意 |
| 03:08:29,410 | 03:08:31,410 | 他還會不會還有一個主持 |
| 03:08:31,410 | 03:08:33,410 | 未經誰同意不得懇職 |
| 03:08:33,410 | 03:08:35,410 | 未經同意不得懇職 |
| 03:08:36,630 | 03:08:38,630 | 謝謝大家 |
| 03:08:38,850 | 03:08:40,850 | 好 |
| 03:08:42,310 | 03:08:44,310 | 那我們就修正通過 |
| 03:08:48,490 | 03:08:50,490 | 非常好 |
| 03:08:51,270 | 03:08:53,270 | 第15條 |
| 03:08:53,270 | 03:08:55,270 | 徐富可羅志強 |
| 03:08:54,770 | 03:08:56,770 | 提案 |
| 03:08:56,770 | 03:08:58,770 | 請說 |
| 03:08:58,770 | 03:09:00,770 | 第15條這邊我們現行的文字是 |
| 03:09:00,770 | 03:09:02,770 | 發生災害之虞 |
| 03:09:02,770 | 03:09:04,770 | 那他的文字範圍其實也包含了 |
| 03:09:04,770 | 03:09:06,770 | 危害人身安全之虞 |
| 03:09:07,660 | 03:09:09,660 | 好 |
| 03:09:08,670 | 03:09:10,670 | 但是我們是希望這樣明確 |
| 03:09:10,670 | 03:09:12,670 | 所以你們應該也沒有意見吧 |
| 03:09:12,500 | 03:09:14,500 | 不是委員您如果這樣寫人身安全 |
| 03:09:14,500 | 03:09:16,500 | 別人就可能會問 |
| 03:09:16,500 | 03:09:18,500 | 那財產的安全呢 |
| 03:09:18,500 | 03:09:20,500 | 那所以那時候我們就前面有 |
| 03:09:20,500 | 03:09:22,500 | 自身自有發生災害 |
| 03:09:22,500 | 03:09:24,500 | 之虞 |
| 03:09:24,500 | 03:09:26,500 | 那時候的意思只要有災害 |
| 03:09:26,500 | 03:09:28,500 | 那災害之虞 |
| 03:09:28,500 | 03:09:30,500 | 那範圍會很大 |
| 03:09:30,500 | 03:09:32,500 | 如果你只限人身安全 |
| 03:09:32,500 | 03:09:34,500 | 那財產呢還有很多的 |
| 03:09:34,500 | 03:09:36,500 | 部分要處理 |
| 03:09:36,500 | 03:09:38,500 | 所以我們會比較建議是說是不是還是 |
| 03:09:38,500 | 03:09:40,500 | 維持現行條文 |
| 03:09:40,500 | 03:09:42,500 | 都發生災害或危害 |
| 03:09:42,500 | 03:09:44,500 | 公共設施之虞 |
| 03:09:44,500 | 03:09:46,500 | 所以意思是說只要有這樣的風險 |
| 03:09:46,500 | 03:09:48,500 | 我們就要做處理 |
| 03:09:48,500 | 03:09:50,500 | 我們就可以做限制 |
| 03:09:50,500 | 03:09:52,500 | 所以您後面限說人身安全 |
| 03:09:52,500 | 03:09:54,500 | 可能就會凸顯怪異漏漫的問題 |
| 03:09:55,890 | 03:09:57,890 | 不是我提的 |
| 03:09:58,910 | 03:10:00,910 | 那麼我很好奇 |
| 03:10:01,340 | 03:10:03,340 | 那麼危害公共設施是不是等同於 |
| 03:10:04,440 | 03:10:06,440 | 好 |
| 03:10:05,520 | 03:10:07,520 | 發生災害 |
| 03:10:07,520 | 03:10:09,520 | 危害公共設施算不算發生災害 |
| 03:10:09,520 | 03:10:11,520 | 有沒有被涵蓋在裡面 |
| 03:10:11,020 | 03:10:13,020 | 謝謝大家 |
| 03:10:12,220 | 03:10:14,220 | 發生災害是已經要發生了嘛 |
| 03:10:14,220 | 03:10:16,220 | 對不對 |
| 03:10:16,220 | 03:10:18,220 | 要明確的生命人身 |
| 03:10:18,220 | 03:10:20,220 | 財產的損失叫災害 |
| 03:10:20,220 | 03:10:22,220 | 那危害公共設施是 |
| 03:10:22,990 | 03:10:24,990 | 危害公共設施 |
| 03:10:24,990 | 03:10:26,990 | 所以你這個之虞是只有修飾 |
| 03:10:26,990 | 03:10:28,990 | 危害公共設施還是 |
| 03:10:29,620 | 03:10:31,620 | 連同災害 |
| 03:10:31,620 | 03:10:33,620 | 連發生災害之虞都在裡面 |
| 03:10:33,620 | 03:10:35,620 | 好 |
| 03:10:35,620 | 03:10:37,620 | 那如果你連發生災害之虞 |
| 03:10:37,620 | 03:10:39,620 | 跟危害公共設施之虞 |
| 03:10:39,620 | 03:10:41,620 | 那麼請問危害公共設施 |
| 03:10:41,620 | 03:10:43,620 | 有沒有 |
| 03:10:42,920 | 03:10:44,920 | 涵蓋在發生災害的當中 |
| 03:10:45,430 | 03:10:47,430 | 也是啊 |
| 03:10:47,430 | 03:10:49,430 | 也是嘛 |
| 03:10:49,430 | 03:10:51,430 | 所以其實它這裡面的是 |
| 03:10:51,430 | 03:10:53,430 | 這個法條的原因是說 |
| 03:10:53,430 | 03:10:55,430 | 只要發生災害之虞就應該限制 |
| 03:10:55,430 | 03:10:57,430 | 那特別強調這個發生災害的內容 |
| 03:10:57,430 | 03:10:59,430 | 還特別標示 |
| 03:10:59,430 | 03:11:01,430 | 公共設施也是其中之一 |
| 03:11:01,430 | 03:11:03,430 | 所以 |
| 03:11:02,140 | 03:11:04,140 | 公共設施是在前面災害的 |
| 03:11:04,140 | 03:11:06,140 | 含色的範圍內 |
| 03:11:06,140 | 03:11:08,140 | 那如果按照這個邏輯 |
| 03:11:08,140 | 03:11:10,140 | 人身安全也在這個災害的 |
| 03:11:10,140 | 03:11:12,140 | 含色範圍內沒有寫到的財產 |
| 03:11:12,140 | 03:11:14,140 | 也害這個災害的 |
| 03:11:14,140 | 03:11:16,140 | 含色範圍內所以其實 |
| 03:11:16,140 | 03:11:18,140 | 不管是加入 |
| 03:11:18,140 | 03:11:20,140 | 危害公共設施或是人身安全 |
| 03:11:20,140 | 03:11:22,140 | 都是在災害的項目 |
| 03:11:22,140 | 03:11:24,140 | 下立法者強化 |
| 03:11:24,140 | 03:11:26,140 | 強調我們的目的保障 |
| 03:11:26,140 | 03:11:28,140 | 的課題所以我是覺得 |
| 03:11:28,140 | 03:11:30,140 | 這個到 |
| 03:11:29,360 | 03:11:31,360 | 也沒有關係啦 |
| 03:11:30,960 | 03:11:32,960 | 委員只是說您說的問題 |
| 03:11:32,960 | 03:11:34,960 | 您說的這種說法 |
| 03:11:34,960 | 03:11:36,960 | 也算一個說法但是 |
| 03:11:36,960 | 03:11:38,960 | 它也可能凸顯另外一個說法 |
| 03:11:38,960 | 03:11:40,960 | 為什麼因為你現在如果假設 |
| 03:11:40,960 | 03:11:42,960 | 危害公共設施及人身安全之虞 |
| 03:11:42,960 | 03:11:44,960 | 我特別把它寫出來 |
| 03:11:44,960 | 03:11:46,960 | 公共設施人身安全 |
| 03:11:46,960 | 03:11:48,960 | 它是綁在一起 |
| 03:11:48,960 | 03:11:50,960 | 那這樣私人的財產 |
| 03:11:50,960 | 03:11:52,960 | 就不在你手上 |
| 03:11:52,960 | 03:11:54,960 | 不會啊在災害裡面啊因為我們只是 |
| 03:11:54,960 | 03:11:56,960 | 在災害底下去特別強調 |
| 03:11:56,960 | 03:11:58,960 | 公共設施 先從就不夠 |
| 03:11:58,960 | 03:12:00,960 | 還要加上人身安全 |
| 03:12:00,960 | 03:12:02,960 | 那麼因為在如果災害 |
| 03:12:02,960 | 03:12:04,960 | 已經含色後面的公共設施了 |
| 03:12:04,960 | 03:12:06,960 | 我後面要加人身安全你要加什麼 |
| 03:12:06,960 | 03:12:08,960 | 都是隨便我們要重視 |
| 03:12:08,960 | 03:12:10,960 | 什麼都可以重視啊其實並沒有說 |
| 03:12:10,960 | 03:12:12,960 | 民事其一排除其他啦 |
| 03:12:12,960 | 03:12:14,960 | 並沒有這個意思嘛難道我民事公共設施 |
| 03:12:14,960 | 03:12:16,960 | 我就排除其他嗎也沒有啊 |
| 03:12:17,450 | 03:12:19,450 | 好我是覺得喔 |
| 03:12:18,920 | 03:12:20,920 | 委員有這樣的一個目的 |
| 03:12:20,920 | 03:12:22,920 | 盡量讓委員在立法者 |
| 03:12:22,920 | 03:12:24,920 | 彰顯他們的保障的課題啦 |
| 03:12:24,920 | 03:12:26,920 | 好不好 |
| 03:12:26,920 | 03:12:28,920 | 我想我們也尊重委員的意見啦 |
| 03:12:28,920 | 03:12:30,920 | 因為我們剛才只是表達說 |
| 03:12:30,920 | 03:12:32,920 | 就是發生災害之虞其實已經涵蓋了 |
| 03:12:32,920 | 03:12:34,920 | 但是如果立法裡面要去凸顯的時候 |
| 03:12:34,920 | 03:12:36,920 | 我想我也尊重委員的意見 |
| 03:12:37,280 | 03:12:39,280 | 好啦這樣子我覺得他只是要強調 |
| 03:12:39,280 | 03:12:41,280 | 因為你人身嘛 |
| 03:12:41,280 | 03:12:43,280 | 好不好 |
| 03:12:42,510 | 03:12:44,510 | 我們就照徐富奎委員 |
| 03:12:44,510 | 03:12:46,510 | 羅志強委員的提案 |
| 03:12:46,510 | 03:12:48,510 | 照樣通過 |
| 03:12:50,970 | 03:12:54,970 | 好接下來臺灣民眾黨黨團第34條 |
| 03:12:54,970 | 03:12:56,970 | 34條我們基本上也是 |
| 03:12:56,970 | 03:12:58,970 | 採取一貫的立場就是 |
| 03:12:58,970 | 03:13:00,970 | 致誓委員提高罰金的上限 |
| 03:13:00,970 | 03:13:02,970 | 但是建議維持 |
| 03:13:02,970 | 03:13:04,970 | 下限不定下限的一個規定 |
| 03:13:06,540 | 03:13:08,540 | 看一下34條我們的 |
| 03:13:08,540 | 03:13:10,540 | 修正動議 |
| 03:13:15,060 | 03:13:17,060 | 所以一樣你也是200萬元以上拿掉 |
| 03:13:17,060 | 03:13:19,060 | 對不對 |
| 03:13:18,910 | 03:13:20,910 | 修正動議 |
| 03:13:23,530 | 03:13:25,530 | 委員下限不定 |
| 03:13:25,530 | 03:13:27,530 | 所以基本上來講上限就 |
| 03:13:27,530 | 03:13:29,530 | 維持 |
| 03:13:29,530 | 03:13:31,530 | 維持您要到2500萬嘛 |
| 03:13:31,530 | 03:13:33,530 | 對不對 |
| 03:13:33,530 | 03:13:35,530 | 所以第一項就是上限調成2500萬 |
| 03:13:35,530 | 03:13:37,530 | 那第二項刑罰 |
| 03:13:37,530 | 03:13:39,530 | 是加重二分之一我們還是 |
| 03:13:39,530 | 03:13:41,530 | 維持刑刑條文就剛剛跟水保法一樣 |
| 03:13:41,530 | 03:13:43,530 | OK |
| 03:13:43,530 | 03:13:45,530 | 所以上限的部分一樣 |
| 03:13:45,530 | 03:13:47,530 | 您要調成6000萬 |
| 03:13:47,530 | 03:13:49,530 | 就調成6000萬 |
| 03:13:49,530 | 03:13:51,530 | 然後有關於致誓中傷的 |
| 03:13:51,530 | 03:13:53,530 | 以上十年以下委員 |
| 03:13:53,530 | 03:13:55,530 | 我們還是維持現行的 |
| 03:13:55,530 | 03:13:57,530 | 條文 |
| 03:13:57,530 | 03:13:59,530 | 我們刑度都不調 |
| 03:13:59,530 | 03:14:01,530 | 我們都只調上限 |
| 03:14:01,530 | 03:14:03,530 | 罰金的部分上限都調成8000萬 |
| 03:14:04,120 | 03:14:06,120 | 這是第二項 |
| 03:14:08,290 | 03:14:10,290 | 所以第二項只改一個 |
| 03:14:10,850 | 03:14:12,850 | 沒有三保條例 |
| 03:14:12,850 | 03:14:14,850 | 就是到三保就是說 |
| 03:14:14,850 | 03:14:16,850 | 刑期的部分就是二分之一的 |
| 03:14:16,850 | 03:14:18,850 | 原則然後那個 |
| 03:14:18,850 | 03:14:20,850 | 新台幣200萬以上的上限就不要 |
| 03:14:20,850 | 03:14:22,850 | 就這樣子上限我們都 |
| 03:14:22,850 | 03:14:24,850 | 把它拉高跟我們委員版本一樣 |
| 03:14:26,650 | 03:14:28,650 | 刑度我們都不調 |
| 03:14:28,650 | 03:14:30,650 | 只有罰金調他 |
| 03:14:30,650 | 03:14:32,650 | 罰金的上限調 |
| 03:14:32,650 | 03:14:34,650 | 所以第二項第三項都一樣 |
| 03:14:34,650 | 03:14:36,650 | 那一樣也是 |
| 03:14:36,650 | 03:14:38,650 | 就是寫出來我們就是在簽免在修正動議 |
| 03:14:39,740 | 03:14:41,740 | 好接下來的話 |
| 03:14:45,010 | 03:14:47,010 | 第35條 |
| 03:14:47,010 | 03:14:49,010 | 也是一樣就是 |
| 03:14:49,010 | 03:14:51,010 | 就是致誓委員提高 |
| 03:14:51,010 | 03:14:53,010 | 罰金好法案的上限但是 |
| 03:14:53,010 | 03:14:55,010 | 維持暗次處罰 |
| 03:14:55,010 | 03:14:57,010 | 然後法案的下限 |
| 03:14:57,010 | 03:14:59,010 | 跟他的罰金 |
| 03:14:59,010 | 03:15:01,010 | 他不定下限 |
| 03:15:02,300 | 03:15:04,300 | 因為我的修正動議也是配合 |
| 03:15:04,300 | 03:15:06,300 | 那個圖裁法我都改成 |
| 03:15:06,300 | 03:15:08,300 | 暗次然後那個字 |
| 03:15:08,300 | 03:15:10,300 | 改正那個字我把它修正 |
| 03:15:10,300 | 03:15:12,300 | 掉因為那是錯字 |
| 03:15:12,300 | 03:15:14,300 | 然後其他的話 |
| 03:15:14,300 | 03:15:16,300 | 一樣就是跟上面的法條 |
| 03:15:16,300 | 03:15:18,300 | 一樣就是下限 |
| 03:15:18,300 | 03:15:20,300 | 把它拿掉但上限都維持 |
| 03:15:20,300 | 03:15:22,300 | 我們委員的一個調整 |
| 03:15:22,300 | 03:15:24,300 | 的修正 |
| 03:15:28,970 | 03:15:30,970 | 我們也有這一款 |
| 03:15:30,970 | 03:15:32,970 | 因為我們的 |
| 03:15:32,970 | 03:15:34,970 | 線型條文只有 |
| 03:15:34,970 | 03:15:36,970 | 因為那個我們的線型條文 |
| 03:15:36,970 | 03:15:38,970 | 只有兩款 |
| 03:15:39,360 | 03:15:41,360 | 35條是35我們現在討論35條 |
| 03:15:41,360 | 03:15:43,360 | 對不對35條 |
| 03:15:43,360 | 03:15:45,360 | 的時候用第10條 |
| 03:15:45,360 | 03:15:47,360 | 第10條剛回到一樣 |
| 03:15:47,360 | 03:15:49,360 | 第10條委員您的那個 |
| 03:15:49,360 | 03:15:51,360 | 擅自開發的那個部分就跟 |
| 03:15:51,360 | 03:15:53,360 | 水保法那個邏輯是一樣的 |
| 03:15:54,750 | 03:15:56,750 | 所以他不用獨立一款出來 |
| 03:16:01,130 | 03:16:03,130 | 我們線型條文就是一個 |
| 03:16:03,130 | 03:16:05,130 | 因你拒一個為你拒 |
| 03:16:05,130 | 03:16:07,130 | 對不對 |
| 03:16:07,130 | 03:16:09,130 | 你看35條線型條文就是 |
| 03:16:09,130 | 03:16:11,130 | 您這邊第二款依法因你拒 |
| 03:16:11,130 | 03:16:13,130 | 而為你拒 |
| 03:16:13,130 | 03:16:15,130 | 這就是你擅自為同意去道理 |
| 03:16:15,130 | 03:16:17,130 | 一樣是沒有你拒水保計畫 |
| 03:16:17,130 | 03:16:19,130 | 所以他用這一款的前段就可以 |
| 03:16:19,130 | 03:16:21,130 | 所以你把它那個 |
| 03:16:21,130 | 03:16:23,130 | 那個一樣對對對對 |
| 03:16:23,130 | 03:16:25,130 | 那就是配合修正動議這樣出來 |
| 03:16:25,130 | 03:16:27,130 | 維持線型條文的 |
| 03:16:27,130 | 03:16:29,130 | 格式處理就可以了 |
| 03:16:28,940 | 03:16:30,940 | 要請他們寫出來好不好 |
| 03:16:32,800 | 03:16:34,800 | 35條 |
| 03:16:34,800 | 03:16:36,800 | 好一樣也會寫出來 |
| 03:16:36,800 | 03:16:38,800 | 我們再聽再修正動議 |
| 03:16:40,430 | 03:16:42,430 | 好 |
| 03:16:51,750 | 03:16:53,750 | 接下來我們進行的是 |
| 03:16:55,770 | 03:16:57,770 | 第37條 |
| 03:16:57,770 | 03:16:59,770 | 37條 |
| 03:16:59,770 | 03:17:01,770 | 我想我們尊重原民會的立場 |
| 03:17:03,010 | 03:17:05,010 | 我們就看那個 |
| 03:17:05,010 | 03:17:07,010 | 最後一次的提案 |
| 03:17:08,630 | 03:17:10,630 | 第一跟第二次的合併到第三個部分 |
| 03:17:12,920 | 03:17:14,920 | 不是不是 |
| 03:17:14,520 | 03:17:16,520 | 就是這個第三個 |
| 03:17:18,470 | 03:17:20,470 | 好 |
| 03:17:20,640 | 03:17:22,640 | 就第37條 |
| 03:17:22,640 | 03:17:24,640 | 就第37條 |
| 03:17:29,080 | 03:17:31,080 | 跟那個 |
| 03:17:31,080 | 03:17:33,080 | 跟委員報告就是說37條 |
| 03:17:33,080 | 03:17:35,080 | 那個部分 |
| 03:17:35,080 | 03:17:37,080 | 政委員提案的版本大概有三個重點 |
| 03:17:37,080 | 03:17:39,080 | 第一個重點是有關於 |
| 03:17:39,080 | 03:17:41,080 | 37條第一項 |
| 03:17:41,080 | 03:17:43,080 | 跟第二項 |
| 03:17:43,080 | 03:17:45,080 | 還有就是說那個修正動議 |
| 03:17:45,080 | 03:17:47,080 | 第四項的部分分別 |
| 03:17:47,080 | 03:17:49,080 | 針對那個有關於 |
| 03:17:49,080 | 03:17:51,080 | 部落取得原保地所有權 |
| 03:17:51,080 | 03:17:53,080 | 的部分有所去 |
| 03:17:53,080 | 03:17:55,080 | 修正 |
| 03:17:55,080 | 03:17:57,080 | 那這個部分本會去會比較建議說 |
| 03:17:57,080 | 03:17:59,080 | 那第四項 |
| 03:17:59,080 | 03:18:01,080 | 就是原條文的部分 |
| 03:18:01,080 | 03:18:03,080 | 那維持原條文的原因 |
| 03:18:03,080 | 03:18:05,080 | 最主要考慮到說 |
| 03:18:05,080 | 03:18:07,080 | 因為依照現行土地法 |
| 03:18:07,080 | 03:18:09,080 | 跟民法有關於不動產登記 |
| 03:18:09,080 | 03:18:11,080 | 主體的部分是以自然人 |
| 03:18:11,080 | 03:18:13,080 | 跟法人為限 |
| 03:18:13,080 | 03:18:15,080 | 那我們先那個修正條文 |
| 03:18:15,080 | 03:18:17,080 | 的部分因為只有寫部落 |
| 03:18:17,080 | 03:18:19,080 | 那到底是不是有包含部落 |
| 03:18:19,080 | 03:18:21,080 | 具有法人資格的部落 |
| 03:18:21,080 | 03:18:23,080 | 這樣子會覺得在語意上面 |
| 03:18:23,080 | 03:18:25,080 | 可能在施用上會產生爭議 |
| 03:18:25,080 | 03:18:27,080 | 那這個部分我們是針對 |
| 03:18:27,080 | 03:18:29,080 | 這個部分我們是建議維持 |
| 03:18:29,080 | 03:18:31,080 | 原條文的部分不要動 |
| 03:18:31,080 | 03:18:33,080 | 那第二個那個鄭委員提案的 |
| 03:18:33,080 | 03:18:35,080 | 一個版本就是有關於 |
| 03:18:35,080 | 03:18:37,080 | 政府承受私有原保地 |
| 03:18:37,080 | 03:18:39,080 | 土地價值 |
| 03:18:39,080 | 03:18:41,080 | 就是在那個 |
| 03:18:41,080 | 03:18:43,080 | 委員的提案修正動議 |
| 03:18:43,080 | 03:18:45,080 | 的第六項的部分 |
| 03:18:45,080 | 03:18:47,080 | 委員有建議就是說 |
| 03:18:47,080 | 03:18:49,080 | 由政府承受私有原保地 |
| 03:18:49,080 | 03:18:51,080 | 的部分其土地價值 |
| 03:18:51,080 | 03:18:53,080 | 以公告限制為計算基礎 |
| 03:18:53,080 | 03:18:55,080 | 那這個部分我跟委員報告 |
| 03:18:55,080 | 03:18:57,080 | 這個部分是不是容許我們加一個 |
| 03:18:57,080 | 03:18:59,080 | 但書的規定就是因為 |
| 03:18:59,080 | 03:19:01,080 | 考量到就是說 |
| 03:19:01,080 | 03:19:03,080 | 原保地的公告限制其實 |
| 03:19:03,080 | 03:19:05,080 | 是蠻低的那你如果再加上 |
| 03:19:05,080 | 03:19:07,080 | 市層的部分 |
| 03:19:07,080 | 03:19:09,080 | 也是還是很低啦所以我們 |
| 03:19:09,080 | 03:19:11,080 | 會建議說我們會 |
| 03:19:11,080 | 03:19:13,080 | 參彩 |
| 03:19:13,080 | 03:19:15,080 | 委員的建議的部分但是 |
| 03:19:15,080 | 03:19:17,080 | 後面在 |
| 03:19:17,080 | 03:19:19,080 | 就是後面加一段但書就是說 |
| 03:19:19,080 | 03:19:21,080 | 但經不動產 |
| 03:19:21,080 | 03:19:23,080 | 估價公會查估 |
| 03:19:23,080 | 03:19:25,080 | 高於該基準者 |
| 03:19:25,080 | 03:19:27,080 | 不在此限那保就這樣子 |
| 03:19:27,080 | 03:19:29,080 | 有關於我們政府承受 |
| 03:19:29,080 | 03:19:31,080 | 私有原保地的土地價值部分 |
| 03:19:31,080 | 03:19:33,080 | 就未必就是用一個 |
| 03:19:33,080 | 03:19:35,080 | 單一的標準那如果說 |
| 03:19:35,080 | 03:19:37,080 | 我們的不動產 |
| 03:19:37,080 | 03:19:39,080 | 估價公會他查估的結果 |
| 03:19:39,080 | 03:19:41,080 | 他的土地價值是高於 |
| 03:19:41,080 | 03:19:43,080 | 公告限制加那個市層 |
| 03:19:43,080 | 03:19:45,080 | 的話那其實這樣子的話會 |
| 03:19:45,080 | 03:19:47,080 | 比較有利於我們族人土地權益 |
| 03:19:47,080 | 03:19:49,080 | 的保障這個部分我們也是 |
| 03:19:49,080 | 03:19:51,080 | 參彩委員的建議然後 |
| 03:19:51,080 | 03:19:53,080 | 但是增加但書的 |
| 03:19:53,080 | 03:19:55,080 | 規定來保持這樣子一個 |
| 03:19:55,080 | 03:19:57,080 | 彈性那第三個 |
| 03:19:57,080 | 03:19:59,080 | 重點的部分就是委員 |
| 03:19:59,080 | 03:20:01,080 | 提到就是說建民登記所產生 |
| 03:20:01,080 | 03:20:03,080 | 的一些問題 |
| 03:20:03,080 | 03:20:05,080 | 那其實的確如果說 |
| 03:20:05,080 | 03:20:07,080 | 依照108年 |
| 03:20:07,080 | 03:20:09,080 | 最高法院民視庭民視 |
| 03:20:09,080 | 03:20:11,080 | 大法庭的一個決議跟今年 |
| 03:20:11,080 | 03:20:13,080 | 才剛剛出爐的6月 |
| 03:20:13,080 | 03:20:15,080 | 25號最高法院 |
| 03:20:15,080 | 03:20:17,080 | 的台上至3月1號的判決 |
| 03:20:17,080 | 03:20:19,080 | 那這個部分也是針對建民登記 |
| 03:20:19,080 | 03:20:21,080 | 有去做一個判決 |
| 03:20:21,080 | 03:20:23,080 | 那我們在我們原民會 |
| 03:20:23,080 | 03:20:25,080 | 針對委員的 |
| 03:20:26,170 | 03:20:28,170 | 這樣子的一個建民登記的一個 |
| 03:20:28,170 | 03:20:30,170 | 房子房度的部分 |
| 03:20:30,170 | 03:20:32,170 | 我們競表贊成但是具體 |
| 03:20:32,170 | 03:20:34,170 | 修正的文字的部分因為 |
| 03:20:34,170 | 03:20:36,170 | 我跟委員報告我們在 |
| 03:20:36,170 | 03:20:38,170 | 我們已經報請行政院 |
| 03:20:38,170 | 03:20:40,170 | 審議的原住民保護地權利 |
| 03:20:40,170 | 03:20:42,170 | 回覆及管理利用條例的部分 |
| 03:20:42,170 | 03:20:44,170 | 針對建民登記的部分 |
| 03:20:44,170 | 03:20:46,170 | 其實有完整的規範 |
| 03:20:46,170 | 03:20:48,170 | 那因為我們那個我們同仁 |
| 03:20:48,170 | 03:20:50,170 | 已經有把那個 |
| 03:20:49,710 | 03:20:51,710 | 具體的修正文字的部分 |
| 03:20:51,710 | 03:20:53,710 | 有去給現在在 |
| 03:20:53,710 | 03:20:55,710 | 列印當中啦 |
| 03:20:55,710 | 03:20:57,710 | 那待會是不是因為文字 |
| 03:20:57,710 | 03:20:59,710 | 我們建議修正相似的部分 |
| 03:20:59,710 | 03:21:01,710 | 還蠻多的 |
| 03:21:01,710 | 03:21:03,710 | 但是我們的精神 |
| 03:21:03,710 | 03:21:05,710 | 是跟委員的立場是一致的 |
| 03:21:05,710 | 03:21:07,710 | 就是要防止第一個就是 |
| 03:21:07,710 | 03:21:09,710 | 建民登記的部分是無效 |
| 03:21:09,710 | 03:21:11,710 | 那第二個有關於就是說 |
| 03:21:11,710 | 03:21:13,710 | 我們如果私有原保地 |
| 03:21:13,710 | 03:21:15,710 | 要交易之前我們是請 |
| 03:21:15,710 | 03:21:17,710 | 責成縣市主管機關 |
| 03:21:17,710 | 03:21:19,710 | 跟地方執行機關就是相關所的部分 |
| 03:21:19,710 | 03:21:21,710 | 他要去做一個 |
| 03:21:21,710 | 03:21:23,710 | 事前的一個審核 |
| 03:21:23,710 | 03:21:25,710 | 的部分他到底有沒有違反 |
| 03:21:25,710 | 03:21:27,710 | 那個拒絕 |
| 03:21:27,710 | 03:21:29,710 | 建民登記情事的這種情形 |
| 03:21:29,710 | 03:21:31,710 | 換句話說我們的建議的 |
| 03:21:31,710 | 03:21:33,710 | 修正條文的部分是把行政權 |
| 03:21:33,710 | 03:21:35,710 | 事前的進入審查的部分 |
| 03:21:35,710 | 03:21:37,710 | 去有做一個更完整的 |
| 03:21:37,710 | 03:21:39,710 | 規範那如果事後 |
| 03:21:39,710 | 03:21:41,710 | 如果登記之後如果 |
| 03:21:41,710 | 03:21:43,710 | 查出來就是說他們的確 |
| 03:21:43,710 | 03:21:45,710 | 是有建民登記情事的部分 |
| 03:21:45,710 | 03:21:47,710 | 我們在行政機關的部分 |
| 03:21:47,710 | 03:21:49,710 | 可以透過行政處分的廢止 |
| 03:21:49,710 | 03:21:51,710 | 或者撤銷原本 |
| 03:21:51,710 | 03:21:53,710 | 所選一展處分的部分 |
| 03:21:53,710 | 03:21:55,710 | 並且喊起登記機關 |
| 03:21:55,710 | 03:21:57,710 | 來撤銷他的一個登記的部分 |
| 03:21:57,710 | 03:21:59,710 | 回復到未登記的一個狀態 |
| 03:21:59,710 | 03:22:01,710 | 所以這個部分我們會把 |
| 03:22:01,710 | 03:22:03,710 | 原本我們原保 |
| 03:22:03,710 | 03:22:05,710 | 條例已經報警院裡面 |
| 03:22:05,710 | 03:22:07,710 | 成立的條文的部分把這些 |
| 03:22:07,710 | 03:22:09,710 | 完整的一個配套措施 |
| 03:22:09,710 | 03:22:11,710 | 把它移列到我們三保條例 |
| 03:22:11,710 | 03:22:13,710 | 的一些相關的一些相似裡面 |
| 03:22:13,710 | 03:22:15,710 | 所以這個部分跟委員做以上的報告 |
| 03:22:17,210 | 03:22:19,210 | 好 進行調理 |
| 03:22:20,550 | 03:22:22,550 | 好 第一個我就從後面講 |
| 03:22:23,850 | 03:22:25,850 | 這個因為研民會 |
| 03:22:25,850 | 03:22:27,850 | 所提的原住民保留地 |
| 03:22:28,190 | 03:22:30,190 | 什麼條例 |
| 03:22:30,980 | 03:22:32,980 | 已經報行政院很久了 |
| 03:22:33,000 | 03:22:35,000 | 行政院被迫要審 |
| 03:22:35,770 | 03:22:37,770 | 這個我們沒有辦法去干預 |
| 03:22:37,770 | 03:22:39,770 | 那現在是這樣我們就 |
| 03:22:39,770 | 03:22:41,770 | 回到這個本席的 |
| 03:22:41,770 | 03:22:43,770 | 修正動議 |
| 03:22:43,770 | 03:22:45,770 | 修正條文 |
| 03:22:45,790 | 03:22:47,790 | 為什麼要把部落 |
| 03:22:48,120 | 03:22:50,120 | 內陸進去 |
| 03:22:50,120 | 03:22:52,120 | 先不要發 因為等一下還要修 |
| 03:22:52,270 | 03:22:54,270 | 還要修 |
| 03:22:53,860 | 03:22:55,860 | 為什麼要把部落 |
| 03:22:55,800 | 03:22:57,800 | 要放進去 |
| 03:22:57,440 | 03:22:59,440 | 最主要在我們的 |
| 03:22:59,610 | 03:23:01,610 | 這個鹽香 |
| 03:23:03,340 | 03:23:05,340 | 原住民私人的土地就是私人的土地 |
| 03:23:06,730 | 03:23:08,730 | 這個土地 |
| 03:23:08,120 | 03:23:10,120 | 我們原住民私人不會去 |
| 03:23:11,880 | 03:23:13,880 | 不會去占用不會去使用 |
| 03:23:13,880 | 03:23:15,880 | 就是部落在使用 |
| 03:23:16,270 | 03:23:18,270 | 所以這個部分是回到 |
| 03:23:18,270 | 03:23:20,270 | 事實 會回到事實面 |
| 03:23:21,160 | 03:23:23,160 | 部落 |
| 03:23:22,660 | 03:23:24,660 | 事實上原計法第二條之一 |
| 03:23:25,820 | 03:23:27,820 | 已經明定部落是公法人 |
| 03:23:29,400 | 03:23:31,400 | 只不過 |
| 03:23:31,000 | 03:23:33,000 | 是 |
| 03:23:32,050 | 03:23:34,050 | 法律已經授權 |
| 03:23:34,050 | 03:23:36,050 | 第二條之一 |
| 03:23:36,050 | 03:23:38,050 | 已經授權 |
| 03:23:38,000 | 03:23:40,000 | 部落是公法人 |
| 03:23:40,000 | 03:23:42,000 | 然後授權 |
| 03:23:40,970 | 03:23:42,970 | 人民會要定這個 |
| 03:23:43,560 | 03:23:45,560 | 部落公法人的設置辦法 |
| 03:23:46,200 | 03:23:48,200 | 但是一直沒有定 |
| 03:23:48,280 | 03:23:50,280 | 已經超過8年了 10年了 |
| 03:23:52,380 | 03:23:54,380 | 而且蔡總統也說 |
| 03:23:55,920 | 03:23:57,920 | 部落公法人的制度 |
| 03:23:57,920 | 03:23:59,920 | 已經上路了 |
| 03:23:59,920 | 03:24:01,920 | 現在已經10年了 |
| 03:24:02,460 | 03:24:04,460 | 如果你有疑慮的話 |
| 03:24:05,630 | 03:24:07,630 | 部落公法人也可以 |
| 03:24:10,470 | 03:24:12,470 | 好 |
| 03:24:11,420 | 03:24:13,420 | 對不對 如果你剛剛講的土地法手 |
| 03:24:14,690 | 03:24:18,690 | 其實我們很多原住民的土地的問題 |
| 03:24:18,690 | 03:24:20,690 | 都是 |
| 03:24:21,840 | 03:24:23,840 | 現在都是一夜 |
| 03:24:23,970 | 03:24:25,970 | 一夜相關的法律了 |
| 03:24:26,270 | 03:24:28,270 | 我們現在政法跟保留地都繼續做 |
| 03:24:28,270 | 03:24:30,270 | 沒有法律的意志了 |
| 03:24:31,180 | 03:24:33,180 | 因為很特殊 |
| 03:24:33,070 | 03:24:35,070 | 也不會增加 |
| 03:24:35,920 | 03:24:37,920 | 就是部落在使用就是在使用 |
| 03:24:37,920 | 03:24:39,920 | 也不會去增加那些面積土地了 |
| 03:24:39,920 | 03:24:41,920 | 所以這個部分 |
| 03:24:41,920 | 03:24:43,920 | 這個人民會希望能夠支持 |
| 03:24:43,920 | 03:24:45,920 | 看你要 |
| 03:24:45,920 | 03:24:47,920 | 如果你一定要加 |
| 03:24:47,920 | 03:24:49,920 | 部落公法人也沒關係 |
| 03:24:50,030 | 03:24:52,030 | 這是第一個部分 |
| 03:24:52,560 | 03:24:54,560 | 第二個 |
| 03:24:54,970 | 03:24:56,970 | 這個剛才你講的那個公告限制 |
| 03:24:56,970 | 03:24:58,970 | 加市城那個部分 |
| 03:24:58,970 | 03:25:00,970 | 當然我是參考 |
| 03:25:00,970 | 03:25:02,970 | 早期的 |
| 03:25:02,210 | 03:25:04,210 | 土地正式條例了 |
| 03:25:03,900 | 03:25:05,900 | 4號 |
| 03:25:04,880 | 03:25:06,880 | 那因為土地之後條例現在修得更好 |
| 03:25:06,880 | 03:25:08,880 | 但是對原住民保留地來說是有害 |
| 03:25:12,330 | 03:25:14,330 | 因為 |
| 03:25:13,700 | 03:25:15,700 | 因為我們周邊都沒有買賣 |
| 03:25:16,640 | 03:25:18,640 | 沒有買賣就沒有公告限 |
| 03:25:18,640 | 03:25:20,640 | 就沒有那個什麼市價 |
| 03:25:20,640 | 03:25:22,640 | 沒有市價 |
| 03:25:22,640 | 03:25:24,640 | 所以你要加剛才那些文字 |
| 03:25:24,640 | 03:25:26,640 | 我支持 |
| 03:25:26,640 | 03:25:28,640 | 謝謝 |
| 03:25:30,050 | 03:25:32,050 | 謝謝大家 |
| 03:25:32,350 | 03:25:34,350 | 到數第二項那個部分 |
| 03:25:34,350 | 03:25:36,350 | 就是非原住民建民登記 |
| 03:25:36,350 | 03:25:38,350 | 無效那個部分 |
| 03:25:38,350 | 03:25:40,350 | 你們沒有問題嗎 |
| 03:25:40,350 | 03:25:42,350 | 報告委員這個部分我們有問題 |
| 03:25:42,350 | 03:25:44,350 | 因為 |
| 03:25:44,350 | 03:25:46,350 | 無效啊 |
| 03:25:46,350 | 03:25:48,350 | 對無效這部分是沒問題 |
| 03:25:48,350 | 03:25:50,350 | 但是後段那個說 |
| 03:25:50,350 | 03:25:52,350 | 中央原住民主管機關因查明 |
| 03:25:52,350 | 03:25:54,350 | 並肅情反反這個部分 |
| 03:25:54,350 | 03:25:56,350 | 這個部分我們在執行面會有困擾 |
| 03:25:56,350 | 03:25:58,350 | 這個部分 |
| 03:25:58,720 | 03:26:00,720 | 你剛剛有提到地方政府嗎 |
| 03:26:00,720 | 03:26:02,720 | 對 |
| 03:26:02,720 | 03:26:04,720 | 這個你可以在那個最後一項 |
| 03:26:04,720 | 03:26:06,720 | 授權的訂定 |
| 03:26:06,720 | 03:26:08,720 | 授權訂的辦法裡面 |
| 03:26:08,720 | 03:26:10,720 | 可以在這個授權訂的辦法裡面 |
| 03:26:10,720 | 03:26:12,720 | 去照 |
| 03:26:12,720 | 03:26:14,720 | 去把他明定 |
| 03:26:14,720 | 03:26:16,720 | 現在也是這樣做啊 |
| 03:26:16,720 | 03:26:18,720 | 也是依這個授權訂的辦法來做啊 |
| 03:26:18,720 | 03:26:20,720 | 只不過是我們 |
| 03:26:19,110 | 03:26:21,110 | 很明確的依最高行政法院的判決 |
| 03:26:22,920 | 03:26:24,920 | 他是無效的 |
| 03:26:25,990 | 03:26:27,990 | 要把它法制化 |
| 03:26:27,990 | 03:26:29,990 | 地方政府才會去 |
| 03:26:29,990 | 03:26:31,990 | 重視才會去執行 |
| 03:26:31,990 | 03:26:33,990 | 報告委員因為你這邊如果把它 |
| 03:26:33,990 | 03:26:35,990 | 變成法律條文的一個象徵的話 |
| 03:26:35,990 | 03:26:37,990 | 因為這個是規定在法律 |
| 03:26:37,990 | 03:26:39,990 | 的層次裡面 |
| 03:26:39,990 | 03:26:41,990 | 那如果說這邊明定是中央原住民 |
| 03:26:41,990 | 03:26:43,990 | 主管機關要肅情反反的話 |
| 03:26:43,990 | 03:26:45,990 | 我跟委員報告 |
| 03:26:45,990 | 03:26:47,990 | 地方政府尤其是公所的部分他們會 |
| 03:26:47,990 | 03:26:49,990 | 覺得說那個是你原民會的事 |
| 03:26:49,990 | 03:26:51,990 | 他不會去造作 |
| 03:26:51,440 | 03:26:53,440 | 我們實務上 |
| 03:26:53,440 | 03:26:55,440 | 我要跟委員拜託 |
| 03:26:55,440 | 03:26:57,440 | 因為這個部分不是規定在法律條文裡面 |
| 03:27:00,130 | 03:27:02,130 | 不是我來說我補充一下 |
| 03:27:02,130 | 03:27:04,130 | 補充一下 |
| 03:27:04,870 | 03:27:06,870 | 他剛講的現在就是 |
| 03:27:08,570 | 03:27:10,570 | 現在就是了 |
| 03:27:11,220 | 03:27:13,220 | 第一個 |
| 03:27:12,860 | 03:27:16,860 | 原住民保留地的管理機關就是你們 |
| 03:27:17,730 | 03:27:19,730 | 如果就法律的主管機關 |
| 03:27:19,730 | 03:27:21,730 | 原住民保留地法律主管也是你們 |
| 03:27:23,570 | 03:27:25,570 | 法定人數不足 |
| 03:27:24,330 | 03:27:26,330 | 這本來就是你們也可以 |
| 03:27:27,370 | 03:27:29,370 | 好這 |
| 03:27:28,850 | 03:27:30,850 | 這個怎麼樣去把它讓地方政府 |
| 03:27:30,850 | 03:27:32,850 | 能夠去 |
| 03:27:32,850 | 03:27:34,850 | 去執行所以你們可以 |
| 03:27:34,850 | 03:27:36,850 | 在那個辦法裡面去做 |
| 03:27:36,850 | 03:27:38,850 | 去做授權 |
| 03:27:38,400 | 03:27:40,400 | 我真的是誠實的 |
| 03:27:40,400 | 03:27:42,400 | 如果說在我們的 |
| 03:27:42,400 | 03:27:44,400 | 最後一個項次授權 |
| 03:27:44,400 | 03:27:46,400 | 的規定的部分有關於全責 |
| 03:27:46,400 | 03:27:48,400 | 分工的部分去 |
| 03:27:48,400 | 03:27:50,400 | 明定一個授權的項次 |
| 03:27:50,400 | 03:27:52,400 | 這個我沒意見 |
| 03:27:52,400 | 03:27:54,400 | 但是我覺得如果說要 |
| 03:27:54,400 | 03:27:56,400 | 在那個修正 |
| 03:27:56,400 | 03:27:58,400 | 動議的第七項的部分 |
| 03:27:58,400 | 03:28:00,400 | 後段文字說要由我們原住民 |
| 03:28:00,400 | 03:28:02,400 | 主管機關 |
| 03:28:04,430 | 03:28:06,430 | 草裡的 |
| 03:28:05,610 | 03:28:07,610 | 我建議一下陳明基的問題 |
| 03:28:07,610 | 03:28:09,610 | 我先問一下 |
| 03:28:09,610 | 03:28:11,610 | 請問目前我們有沒有原住民保留地 |
| 03:28:11,610 | 03:28:13,610 | 不屬於三波地的範圍 |
| 03:28:13,610 | 03:28:15,610 | 的範圍有沒有 |
| 03:28:15,610 | 03:28:17,610 | 有 |
| 03:28:16,830 | 03:28:18,830 | 所以我們要了解 |
| 03:28:18,830 | 03:28:20,830 | 現在我們在談的是三波地 |
| 03:28:20,830 | 03:28:22,830 | 在三波地當中第三次區 |
| 03:28:22,830 | 03:28:24,830 | 要處理的時候三波地當中屬於原保 |
| 03:28:24,830 | 03:28:26,830 | 地的部分怎麼處理但是整 |
| 03:28:26,830 | 03:28:28,830 | 體的原住民保留地他不限定 |
| 03:28:28,830 | 03:28:30,830 | 在三波地他也有會發生 |
| 03:28:30,830 | 03:28:32,830 | 建民登記的情況是也會發生 |
| 03:28:32,830 | 03:28:34,830 | 說國家要使用的時候 |
| 03:28:34,830 | 03:28:36,830 | 要什麼程序使用至於說 |
| 03:28:36,830 | 03:28:38,830 | 部落是不是未來可以明定 |
| 03:28:38,830 | 03:28:40,830 | 在承受人 |
| 03:28:40,830 | 03:28:42,830 | 的一個當中那還要有內政 |
| 03:28:42,830 | 03:28:44,830 | 部地政單位去表達 |
| 03:28:44,830 | 03:28:46,830 | 我是建議我們原保地 |
| 03:28:46,830 | 03:28:48,830 | 總體的問題我覺得 |
| 03:28:49,350 | 03:28:51,350 | 政天台委員來講這個 |
| 03:28:51,350 | 03:28:53,350 | 讓我們大家都了解很重要 |
| 03:28:53,350 | 03:28:55,350 | 但是因為我們今天經濟委員會審查的標 |
| 03:28:55,350 | 03:28:57,350 | 地是三波地 |
| 03:28:57,350 | 03:28:59,350 | 三波地當中在37條特別提到 |
| 03:28:59,350 | 03:29:01,350 | 原保地的部分他是不是 |
| 03:29:01,350 | 03:29:03,350 | 在這邊修法的效果要含色到 |
| 03:29:03,350 | 03:29:05,350 | 所有的原保地我是覺得 |
| 03:29:05,350 | 03:29:07,350 | 因是不是請原民會 |
| 03:29:07,350 | 03:29:09,350 | 說明一下還有沒有全部 |
| 03:29:09,350 | 03:29:11,350 | 原住民保留地的上位的 |
| 03:29:11,350 | 03:29:13,350 | 管理的法令我們在那個 |
| 03:29:13,350 | 03:29:15,350 | 法令上來處理包括部落 |
| 03:29:15,350 | 03:29:17,350 | 包括建民登記這個問題 |
| 03:29:17,350 | 03:29:19,350 | 因為目前我們要取得的你看37條 |
| 03:29:19,350 | 03:29:21,350 | 怎麼講 |
| 03:29:20,530 | 03:29:22,530 | 37條他只有解 |
| 03:29:22,530 | 03:29:24,530 | 三波地範圍內的原住民保留地 |
| 03:29:24,530 | 03:29:26,530 | 我們在這裡只是處理 |
| 03:29:26,530 | 03:29:28,530 | 三波地範圍內的原住民保留地 |
| 03:29:28,530 | 03:29:30,530 | 而且他是強調說 |
| 03:29:30,530 | 03:29:32,530 | 為了要保障原住民的權利 |
| 03:29:32,530 | 03:29:34,530 | 所以37條他基本上 |
| 03:29:34,530 | 03:29:36,530 | 是在三波地當中保障 |
| 03:29:36,530 | 03:29:38,530 | 原住民保留地的一個 |
| 03:29:38,530 | 03:29:40,530 | 權利 |
| 03:29:39,630 | 03:29:41,630 | 那至於說原住民保留地整體政策 |
| 03:29:41,630 | 03:29:43,630 | 要怎麼處理部落可不可以 |
| 03:29:43,630 | 03:29:45,630 | 成為一個承受人之一 |
| 03:29:45,630 | 03:29:47,630 | 我們是不是請說明一下原民會 |
| 03:29:47,630 | 03:29:49,630 | 說明還有沒有哪些法令我們要一併 |
| 03:29:49,630 | 03:29:51,630 | 要去處理 |
| 03:29:53,190 | 03:29:55,190 | 沒關係那個我先跟 |
| 03:29:55,190 | 03:29:57,190 | 中委報告一下的確 |
| 03:29:57,190 | 03:29:59,190 | 剛剛委員提到一個 |
| 03:29:59,190 | 03:30:01,190 | 關鍵的重點就是說 |
| 03:30:01,190 | 03:30:03,190 | 因為現行 |
| 03:30:03,190 | 03:30:05,190 | 法制的部分的確 |
| 03:30:05,190 | 03:30:07,190 | 我們有關於原住民 |
| 03:30:07,190 | 03:30:09,190 | 保留地管理的一個最高法規 |
| 03:30:09,190 | 03:30:11,190 | 接的確是現在依附在三波地 |
| 03:30:11,190 | 03:30:13,190 | 保留利用條例那剛剛委員提到 |
| 03:30:13,190 | 03:30:15,190 | 一個重點就是說因為三波地保留 |
| 03:30:15,190 | 03:30:17,190 | 利用條例要處理的部分就是三波地範圍 |
| 03:30:17,190 | 03:30:19,190 | 但實務上 |
| 03:30:19,190 | 03:30:21,190 | 實務上的部分就是說 |
| 03:30:21,190 | 03:30:23,190 | 我們在不限於 |
| 03:30:23,190 | 03:30:25,190 | 三波地範圍 |
| 03:30:25,190 | 03:30:27,190 | 因為那個三保條例 |
| 03:30:27,190 | 03:30:29,190 | 三十七條那個最後一項 |
| 03:30:29,190 | 03:30:31,190 | 他有授權我們 |
| 03:30:32,220 | 03:30:34,220 | 授權我們原民會去定原住民保留地 |
| 03:30:34,220 | 03:30:36,220 | 開放管理辦法所以我們就是 |
| 03:30:36,220 | 03:30:38,220 | 因為依據這個授權的部分 |
| 03:30:38,220 | 03:30:40,220 | 進一步去處理不管是三波地 |
| 03:30:40,220 | 03:30:42,220 | 範圍之內或者是非三波地 |
| 03:30:42,220 | 03:30:44,220 | 範圍之內的部分我們一併去做 |
| 03:30:44,220 | 03:30:46,220 | 一個處理因為這個是繼續保障 |
| 03:30:46,220 | 03:30:48,220 | 原住民權益當然就是說 |
| 03:30:48,220 | 03:30:50,220 | 我跟中委很報告就是說我們從 |
| 03:30:50,220 | 03:30:52,220 | 製度面去解釋這個問題的話 |
| 03:30:52,220 | 03:30:54,220 | 我們已經擬據了原住民保留地 |
| 03:30:54,220 | 03:30:56,220 | 回復及權利管理 |
| 03:30:56,220 | 03:30:58,220 | 條例的部分暴行這件事情 |
| 03:30:58,220 | 03:31:00,220 | 我們也是希望從三保條例這邊脫 |
| 03:31:00,220 | 03:31:02,220 | 勾去處理不要依附在三保條例 |
| 03:31:02,220 | 03:31:04,220 | 裡面這個才是一個根本的解決 |
| 03:31:04,220 | 03:31:06,220 | 製造 |
| 03:31:05,880 | 03:31:07,880 | 好 |
| 03:31:07,100 | 03:31:09,100 | 我來講歷史 |
| 03:31:09,210 | 03:31:11,210 | 簡單的我很簡約 |
| 03:31:12,580 | 03:31:14,580 | 很簡約 |
| 03:31:14,340 | 03:31:16,340 | 第一開始 |
| 03:31:15,870 | 03:31:17,870 | 台安省政府 |
| 03:31:17,430 | 03:31:19,430 | 電腦一個3D保留地管理辦法 |
| 03:31:20,430 | 03:31:22,430 | 然後後來 |
| 03:31:21,850 | 03:31:23,850 | 這個提高了中央的位階 |
| 03:31:23,850 | 03:31:25,850 | 內政部 |
| 03:31:26,440 | 03:31:28,440 | 那後來因為要有法律的 |
| 03:31:29,220 | 03:31:31,220 | 一致 |
| 03:31:30,230 | 03:31:32,230 | 一開始沒有法律的一致了 |
| 03:31:32,440 | 03:31:34,440 | 然後才 |
| 03:31:34,440 | 03:31:36,440 | 到底要依附在哪裡 |
| 03:31:36,240 | 03:31:38,240 | 所以當時的政府 |
| 03:31:38,230 | 03:31:40,230 | 把它依附在這個 |
| 03:31:40,230 | 03:31:42,230 | 三保地保留地條例上七條 |
| 03:31:42,840 | 03:31:44,840 | 然後你會看到三十七條在負責那邊 |
| 03:31:46,130 | 03:31:48,130 | 不是在前面 |
| 03:31:48,290 | 03:31:50,290 | 所以現在的實施 |
| 03:31:51,190 | 03:31:53,190 | 好 |
| 03:31:51,970 | 03:31:53,970 | 總委現在的管理辦法 |
| 03:31:54,740 | 03:31:56,740 | 三十七條授權定的管理辦法 |
| 03:31:59,210 | 03:32:01,210 | 包含三保地以外的原准保留地 |
| 03:32:02,720 | 03:32:04,720 | 所以 |
| 03:32:04,720 | 03:32:06,720 | 應該要回歸到原住民族基本法 |
| 03:32:10,260 | 03:32:12,260 | 原住民族基本法明訂 |
| 03:32:12,260 | 03:32:14,260 | 要制定原住民族土地及海法 |
| 03:32:17,550 | 03:32:19,550 | 但是過去的 |
| 03:32:19,540 | 03:32:21,540 | 八年甚至現在十年 |
| 03:32:22,440 | 03:32:24,440 | 延民會啊延民會 |
| 03:32:24,440 | 03:32:26,440 | 連送到行政院都沒有 |
| 03:32:27,030 | 03:32:29,030 | 都沒有把原住民族土地及海法 |
| 03:32:30,070 | 03:32:32,070 | 都沒有送到 |
| 03:32:32,070 | 03:32:34,070 | 雖然我們蔡總統說 |
| 03:32:33,820 | 03:32:35,820 | 我們也很快的會吧 |
| 03:32:35,910 | 03:32:37,910 | 原住民族土地及海法 |
| 03:32:38,950 | 03:32:40,950 | 送到立法院 |
| 03:32:41,510 | 03:32:43,510 | 已經超過十年沒有送 |
| 03:32:43,470 | 03:32:45,470 | 而且延民會連送都沒有送 |
| 03:32:46,690 | 03:32:48,690 | 所以這個部分 |
| 03:32:48,690 | 03:32:50,690 | 原住民保留地什麼條例 |
| 03:32:50,690 | 03:32:52,690 | 那個根本就是不符合原住民族基本法 |
| 03:32:52,690 | 03:32:54,690 | 所以我們只好 |
| 03:32:54,690 | 03:32:56,690 | 我們只好不得不 |
| 03:32:57,530 | 03:32:59,530 | 繼續依附在這個 |
| 03:32:59,530 | 03:33:01,530 | 三保地保留地用條例 |
| 03:33:01,530 | 03:33:03,530 | 三十七條 |
| 03:33:03,530 | 03:33:05,530 | 是這樣的一個原由 |
| 03:33:05,530 | 03:33:07,530 | 做說明 |
| 03:33:06,830 | 03:33:08,830 | 各位報告就是說 |
| 03:33:08,830 | 03:33:10,830 | 我們現在手上 |
| 03:33:10,830 | 03:33:12,830 | 我們有一個三十七條建議的修正 |
| 03:33:12,830 | 03:33:14,830 | 的版本 |
| 03:33:14,830 | 03:33:16,830 | 那紅字的部分是我們 |
| 03:33:16,830 | 03:33:18,830 | 建議修正的一些文字 |
| 03:33:18,830 | 03:33:20,830 | 那我跟各位 |
| 03:33:20,830 | 03:33:22,830 | 報告一下就是說有關於第二項的部分 |
| 03:33:22,830 | 03:33:24,830 | 我們紅字的部分就是增加 |
| 03:33:24,830 | 03:33:26,830 | 就是說今天如果 |
| 03:33:26,830 | 03:33:28,830 | 原保地如果移轉 |
| 03:33:28,830 | 03:33:30,830 | 如果有違反這種情形的話 |
| 03:33:30,830 | 03:33:32,830 | 它的法律效果就是無效 |
| 03:33:32,830 | 03:33:34,830 | 這個部分就是建民登記的法律效果 |
| 03:33:34,830 | 03:33:36,830 | 所以這個部分我們有參採 |
| 03:33:36,830 | 03:33:38,830 | 那個我們政委員的意見 |
| 03:33:38,830 | 03:33:40,830 | 那第三項跟第四項第五項 |
| 03:33:40,830 | 03:33:42,830 | 的部分就是政委員 |
| 03:33:42,830 | 03:33:44,830 | 所希望就是我們要 |
| 03:33:44,830 | 03:33:46,830 | 提出一些去杜絕 |
| 03:33:46,830 | 03:33:48,830 | 建民登記的一些具體方法 |
| 03:33:48,830 | 03:33:50,830 | 那這個部分我們很 |
| 03:33:50,830 | 03:33:52,830 | 我們原理會很負責任的就是說 |
| 03:33:52,830 | 03:33:54,830 | 私有原表地 |
| 03:33:54,830 | 03:33:56,830 | 他的如果說移轉他事先 |
| 03:33:56,830 | 03:33:58,830 | 要透過拒絕的身份去拒絕 |
| 03:33:58,830 | 03:34:00,830 | 他將來這個所有權的移轉 |
| 03:34:00,830 | 03:34:02,830 | 他不會移轉給非原住民 |
| 03:34:02,830 | 03:34:04,830 | 這是第三項 |
| 03:34:04,830 | 03:34:06,830 | 那第四項的部分我們要賦予 |
| 03:34:06,830 | 03:34:08,830 | 公所的部分有一個事前 |
| 03:34:08,830 | 03:34:10,830 | 查核的這樣子的一個 |
| 03:34:10,830 | 03:34:12,830 | 權限讓他們可以在事前 |
| 03:34:12,830 | 03:34:14,830 | 他辦理那個主任 |
| 03:34:14,830 | 03:34:16,830 | 要辦理所有權益的登記者說他做一個 |
| 03:34:16,830 | 03:34:18,830 | 事先的一個審查 |
| 03:34:18,830 | 03:34:20,830 | 然後第五項的部分如果說 |
| 03:34:20,830 | 03:34:22,830 | 如果經行政調查 |
| 03:34:22,830 | 03:34:24,830 | 是確定是有這種 |
| 03:34:24,830 | 03:34:26,830 | 所謂建民登記的情形的話 |
| 03:34:26,830 | 03:34:28,830 | 那我們主管機關的部分 |
| 03:34:28,830 | 03:34:30,830 | 可以不經過向 |
| 03:34:30,830 | 03:34:32,830 | 法院訴請圖銷登記 |
| 03:34:32,830 | 03:34:34,830 | 就可以把事前的部分 |
| 03:34:34,830 | 03:34:36,830 | 就可以駁回所有權 |
| 03:34:36,830 | 03:34:38,830 | 移轉登記的行政處分 |
| 03:34:38,830 | 03:34:40,830 | 那如果已經查出來他確實有違反 |
| 03:34:40,830 | 03:34:42,830 | 拒絕這種情形的話 |
| 03:34:42,830 | 03:34:44,830 | 我們會有被廢止原來的 |
| 03:34:44,830 | 03:34:46,830 | 核准的這樣子 |
| 03:34:46,830 | 03:34:48,830 | 移轉登記的一個處分並且喊起登機官 |
| 03:34:48,830 | 03:34:50,830 | 那個那個圖銷 |
| 03:34:50,830 | 03:34:52,830 | 他所有權移轉登記的這個部分 |
| 03:34:52,830 | 03:34:54,830 | 我們覺得好這個部分是 |
| 03:34:54,830 | 03:34:56,830 | 雖然這個是 |
| 03:34:56,830 | 03:34:58,830 | 失權的一個爭議但是我們原民 |
| 03:34:58,830 | 03:35:00,830 | 會從公權力建議 |
| 03:35:00,830 | 03:35:02,830 | 那個介入的一個角度 |
| 03:35:02,830 | 03:35:04,830 | 來去做一個事前審核 |
| 03:35:04,830 | 03:35:06,830 | 跟事後的一個查核 |
| 03:35:06,830 | 03:35:08,830 | 的這樣子一個動作 |
| 03:35:08,830 | 03:35:10,830 | 我相信我們提出來的這個版本 |
| 03:35:10,830 | 03:35:12,830 | 第一個是符合那個我們 |
| 03:35:12,830 | 03:35:14,830 | 政委員他的一個意旨 |
| 03:35:14,830 | 03:35:16,830 | 那第二個就是說我們也是 |
| 03:35:16,830 | 03:35:18,830 | 很負責任的就是把這樣子 |
| 03:35:18,830 | 03:35:20,830 | 的一個行政部門因 |
| 03:35:20,830 | 03:35:22,830 | 介入調查他可以行使 |
| 03:35:22,830 | 03:35:24,830 | 公權力的依據明定在法律條文 |
| 03:35:24,830 | 03:35:26,830 | 裡面讓我們縣市 |
| 03:35:26,830 | 03:35:28,830 | 政府跟公所他在進行行政查核 |
| 03:35:28,830 | 03:35:30,830 | 的時候他有一個權限 |
| 03:35:30,830 | 03:35:32,830 | 可以去做一個處理 |
| 03:35:32,830 | 03:35:34,830 | 然後在第九項那個部分 |
| 03:35:34,830 | 03:35:36,830 | 我想這個部分剛剛那個我已經 |
| 03:35:36,830 | 03:35:38,830 | 跟政委員報告過我們也是依照 |
| 03:35:38,830 | 03:35:40,830 | 政委員的一些建議去做一個 |
| 03:35:40,830 | 03:35:42,830 | 後段文字的一個調整那剛剛 |
| 03:35:42,830 | 03:35:44,830 | 委員也這個部分也是說OK我想這個 |
| 03:35:44,830 | 03:35:46,830 | 部分我們應該是有共識的以上 |
| 03:35:52,490 | 03:35:54,490 | 我有意見啦 |
| 03:35:54,490 | 03:35:56,490 | 請問處長你這個用心良苦我覺得 |
| 03:35:56,490 | 03:35:58,490 | 這個第三項第四項第五項增加在 |
| 03:35:58,490 | 03:36:00,490 | 第二項之後原定的第三項 |
| 03:36:00,490 | 03:36:02,490 | 之前這裡是在處理 |
| 03:36:02,490 | 03:36:04,490 | 所有元寶地的建明登記 |
| 03:36:04,490 | 03:36:06,490 | 是處理屬於 |
| 03:36:06,490 | 03:36:08,490 | 山坡地範圍內的元寶地 |
| 03:36:08,490 | 03:36:10,490 | 全部 |
| 03:36:10,530 | 03:36:12,530 | 我問你 |
| 03:36:12,530 | 03:36:14,530 | 如果不是山坡地的 |
| 03:36:14,530 | 03:36:16,530 | 原住民保留地我們要 |
| 03:36:16,530 | 03:36:18,530 | 來適用山坡地保育 |
| 03:36:18,530 | 03:36:20,530 | 條例我強調一個事情 |
| 03:36:20,530 | 03:36:22,530 | 我們屏東有 |
| 03:36:22,530 | 03:36:24,530 | 也不要說是全台灣 |
| 03:36:24,530 | 03:36:26,530 | 相當多的原住民有八個原住民 |
| 03:36:26,530 | 03:36:28,530 | 鄉那這些原住民鄉 |
| 03:36:28,530 | 03:36:30,530 | 他們的地有很多 |
| 03:36:30,530 | 03:36:32,530 | 它的坡度其實並 |
| 03:36:32,530 | 03:36:34,530 | 不是算山坡 |
| 03:36:34,530 | 03:36:36,530 | 大家不要以為原保地一定是 |
| 03:36:36,530 | 03:36:38,530 | 在有坡度達到山坡 |
| 03:36:38,530 | 03:36:40,530 | 地認定的地方 |
| 03:36:40,530 | 03:36:42,530 | 但是因為幾乎他們 |
| 03:36:42,530 | 03:36:44,530 | 幾乎就是被認定在 |
| 03:36:44,240 | 03:36:46,240 | 山坡地內反而造成 |
| 03:36:46,240 | 03:36:48,240 | 在原鄉地區其實並 |
| 03:36:48,240 | 03:36:50,240 | 沒有屬於山坡地地形的 |
| 03:36:50,240 | 03:36:52,240 | 土地它在使用 |
| 03:36:52,240 | 03:36:54,240 | 上會受到我們山坡地保育 |
| 03:36:54,240 | 03:36:56,240 | 條例限制我想這點處理 |
| 03:36:56,240 | 03:36:58,240 | 很清楚是那我們過去一直努力 |
| 03:36:58,240 | 03:37:00,240 | 的就是希望讓這些原保 |
| 03:37:00,240 | 03:37:02,240 | 地它能夠 |
| 03:37:02,240 | 03:37:04,240 | 不要那麼全部大範圍的 |
| 03:37:04,240 | 03:37:06,240 | 蓋花性的涵蓋在山坡地 |
| 03:37:06,240 | 03:37:08,240 | 當中可以不用去適用 |
| 03:37:08,240 | 03:37:10,240 | 山坡地保育條例才能進行 |
| 03:37:10,240 | 03:37:12,240 | 它適當的開發行為 |
| 03:37:12,240 | 03:37:14,240 | 是那你現在又 |
| 03:37:14,240 | 03:37:16,240 | 因為剛鄭文遠講的是一個歷史 |
| 03:37:16,240 | 03:37:18,240 | 的一個過程嘛 |
| 03:37:18,240 | 03:37:20,240 | 當時沒有法所以依附在山坡地保育 |
| 03:37:20,240 | 03:37:22,240 | 條例是那因為依附在山坡地 |
| 03:37:22,240 | 03:37:24,240 | 保育條例原保原保地 |
| 03:37:24,240 | 03:37:26,240 | 原住民保留地就有一個管理 |
| 03:37:26,240 | 03:37:28,240 | 的一個辦法是但是你這樣 |
| 03:37:28,240 | 03:37:30,240 | 就逼著所有的原住民的保留 |
| 03:37:30,240 | 03:37:32,240 | 地他都必須被認定 |
| 03:37:32,240 | 03:37:34,240 | 是山坡地後他才能夠 |
| 03:37:34,240 | 03:37:36,240 | 得到這個釋法性上的適用 |
| 03:37:36,240 | 03:37:38,240 | 但是你去適用山坡地保育 |
| 03:37:38,240 | 03:37:40,240 | 條例不見得對於我們 |
| 03:37:40,240 | 03:37:42,240 | 我們原保地當中非屬於山坡地 |
| 03:37:42,240 | 03:37:44,240 | 性質的因為山坡地保育 |
| 03:37:44,240 | 03:37:46,240 | 條例對土地的使用有相當嚴格的 |
| 03:37:46,240 | 03:37:48,240 | 規範是那這個過去我們很多 |
| 03:37:48,240 | 03:37:50,240 | 原住民他的土地呢其實 |
| 03:37:50,240 | 03:37:52,240 | 那個情況我們去看了是平坦 |
| 03:37:52,240 | 03:37:54,240 | 的可是他就是因為山坡地 |
| 03:37:54,240 | 03:37:56,240 | 保育條例才能適用所以他被 |
| 03:37:56,240 | 03:37:58,240 | 被勉強的被認被 |
| 03:37:58,240 | 03:38:00,240 | 被山坡地了啦 |
| 03:38:00,240 | 03:38:02,240 | 被山坡地的我們還希望趕快 |
| 03:38:02,240 | 03:38:04,240 | 能夠拉出來所以我是個人 |
| 03:38:04,240 | 03:38:06,240 | 是傾向說行政院這邊要趕快 |
| 03:38:06,240 | 03:38:08,240 | 的就所有的原保地 |
| 03:38:08,240 | 03:38:10,240 | 把包括建民登記的部分能夠含色 |
| 03:38:10,240 | 03:38:12,240 | 進去是那這樣的話我們今天 |
| 03:38:12,240 | 03:38:14,240 | 修山坡地保育條例未來只有 |
| 03:38:14,240 | 03:38:16,240 | 這個地方有建民登記的處理那麼變成 |
| 03:38:16,240 | 03:38:18,240 | 原住民他只要處理說我要去 |
| 03:38:18,240 | 03:38:20,240 | 主張我的原保地要適用這個建民登記 |
| 03:38:20,240 | 03:38:22,240 | 我就必須說我這個是山坡地 |
| 03:38:22,240 | 03:38:24,240 | 我才能來適用事實上 |
| 03:38:24,240 | 03:38:26,240 | 一個原住民保留地他的使用開 |
| 03:38:26,240 | 03:38:28,240 | 發行為有時候會因為 |
| 03:38:28,240 | 03:38:30,240 | 在山坡地的條例較 |
| 03:38:30,240 | 03:38:32,240 | 有利是我們適用之有 |
| 03:38:32,240 | 03:38:34,240 | 時候是適用山坡地保育條例較為 |
| 03:38:34,240 | 03:38:36,240 | 不利我們希望不要適用之 |
| 03:38:36,240 | 03:38:38,240 | 這樣的情況你們在法治法有沒有想過 |
| 03:38:38,240 | 03:38:40,240 | 有跟委員報告其實 |
| 03:38:40,240 | 03:38:42,240 | 剛委員提示的那個 |
| 03:38:42,240 | 03:38:44,240 | 部分就是我們原保地的 |
| 03:38:44,240 | 03:38:46,240 | 範圍其實本來就不適用於山坡地範圍 |
| 03:38:46,240 | 03:38:48,240 | 範圍之內所以跟委員報告 |
| 03:38:48,240 | 03:38:50,240 | 其實我們現在剛委員我們 |
| 03:38:50,240 | 03:38:52,240 | 給你那些修正條文的建議文字 |
| 03:38:52,240 | 03:38:54,240 | 第三項到第五項的那個部分其實 |
| 03:38:54,240 | 03:38:56,240 | 就是從我們原保地 |
| 03:38:56,240 | 03:38:58,240 | 的條例裡面的第13 |
| 03:38:58,240 | 03:39:00,240 | 條把它移列過來 |
| 03:39:00,240 | 03:39:02,240 | 到山坡條例37 |
| 03:39:02,240 | 03:39:04,240 | 條那因為我跟 |
| 03:39:04,240 | 03:39:06,240 | 我跟委員報告因為那個 |
| 03:39:06,240 | 03:39:08,240 | 那你們這個條文行政院這三個項目都看過了嗎 |
| 03:39:08,240 | 03:39:10,240 | 目前是還沒有審議 |
| 03:39:10,240 | 03:39:12,240 | 但是我要澄清一點就是說 |
| 03:39:12,240 | 03:39:14,240 | 我要澄清一點就是說因為我們山坡 |
| 03:39:14,240 | 03:39:16,240 | 我們那個原保原住民保地 |
| 03:39:16,240 | 03:39:18,240 | 權利及回復及管理利用 |
| 03:39:18,240 | 03:39:20,240 | 條例的部分其實我們在111 |
| 03:39:20,240 | 03:39:22,240 | 年已經報國行政院而且行政院 |
| 03:39:22,240 | 03:39:24,240 | 審議已經報到立法院 |
| 03:39:24,240 | 03:39:26,240 | 後來因為屆期不續審所以就沒有繼續審 |
| 03:39:26,240 | 03:39:28,240 | 那我們去年 |
| 03:39:28,240 | 03:39:30,240 | 去年其實已經 |
| 03:39:30,240 | 03:39:32,240 | 已經有曾經報院過一次不是完全 |
| 03:39:32,240 | 03:39:34,240 | 在111年就已經 |
| 03:39:34,240 | 03:39:36,240 | 行政院審議過然後也報到 |
| 03:39:36,240 | 03:39:38,240 | 立法院來 |
| 03:39:38,240 | 03:39:40,240 | 那如果當年報院的那個 |
| 03:39:40,240 | 03:39:42,240 | 版本在哪個委員會審議 |
| 03:39:42,240 | 03:39:44,240 | 內政委員會 |
| 03:39:44,240 | 03:39:46,240 | 對嘛主席 |
| 03:39:45,680 | 03:39:47,680 | 對對對 |
| 03:39:47,680 | 03:39:49,680 | 我們是在強調其實內政委員會 |
| 03:39:49,680 | 03:39:51,680 | 跟經濟委員會他的設置的 |
| 03:39:51,680 | 03:39:53,680 | 主管的 |
| 03:39:53,680 | 03:39:55,680 | 機關涵蓋範圍不同 |
| 03:39:55,680 | 03:39:57,680 | 今天我們今天來我們在談 |
| 03:39:57,680 | 03:39:59,680 | 經濟委員會找來這些部會是以農業 |
| 03:39:59,680 | 03:40:01,680 | 被為主但是今天涉及到 |
| 03:40:01,680 | 03:40:03,680 | 原保地的部分不會只有原民會 |
| 03:40:04,580 | 03:40:06,580 | 在內政委員會還有其他的部會 |
| 03:40:06,580 | 03:40:08,580 | 內政部他也要參與 |
| 03:40:08,580 | 03:40:10,580 | 所以今天我們在 |
| 03:40:10,580 | 03:40:12,580 | 經濟委員會審一個未來 |
| 03:40:12,580 | 03:40:14,580 | 會在所謂的原保地的 |
| 03:40:14,580 | 03:40:16,580 | 相關的法案 |
| 03:40:16,580 | 03:40:18,580 | 如果說今天行政院那個版本 |
| 03:40:18,580 | 03:40:20,580 | 送出來了會變成怎樣 |
| 03:40:20,670 | 03:40:22,670 | 內政委員會審那個版本 |
| 03:40:22,670 | 03:40:24,670 | 今天我們的 |
| 03:40:23,920 | 03:40:25,920 | 三波地保育條例審這個版本 |
| 03:40:25,920 | 03:40:27,920 | 雖然這中間內容是相同的 |
| 03:40:27,920 | 03:40:29,920 | 但是他會是連動所以我是覺得 |
| 03:40:29,920 | 03:40:31,920 | 我可以體會政委員我們非常的 |
| 03:40:31,920 | 03:40:33,920 | 急迫但是要考慮到 |
| 03:40:33,920 | 03:40:35,920 | 剛剛部落那個事情我是稍微保留 |
| 03:40:35,920 | 03:40:37,920 | 因為部落這個事情到底 |
| 03:40:37,920 | 03:40:39,920 | 能不能作為一個土地的 |
| 03:40:39,920 | 03:40:41,920 | 登記的一個資格 |
| 03:40:41,920 | 03:40:43,920 | 這還是要回歸到內政委員會 |
| 03:40:43,920 | 03:40:45,920 | 的相關土地法令 |
| 03:40:45,920 | 03:40:47,920 | 所以我們想處理原保地 |
| 03:40:47,920 | 03:40:49,920 | 還是要處理三波地保育條例 |
| 03:40:49,920 | 03:40:51,920 | 這個要分清楚所以我是覺得 |
| 03:40:51,920 | 03:40:53,920 | 因為時間大家也 |
| 03:40:53,920 | 03:40:55,920 | 聽了政委員說明我們在 |
| 03:40:55,920 | 03:40:57,920 | 情理上都支持 |
| 03:40:57,920 | 03:40:59,920 | 但在法治上要完備不然我會擔心說 |
| 03:40:59,920 | 03:41:01,920 | 這個通過去了我們屏東的原住民朋友 |
| 03:41:01,920 | 03:41:03,920 | 他說那 |
| 03:41:03,920 | 03:41:05,920 | 我只有在三波地裡面才可以這樣子 |
| 03:41:05,920 | 03:41:07,920 | 做嗎 |
| 03:41:07,290 | 03:41:09,290 | 只有三波地裡面才可以適用這個規定嗎 |
| 03:41:09,290 | 03:41:11,290 | 那我是原保地那為什麼用原保地 |
| 03:41:11,290 | 03:41:13,290 | 全部含色範圍的東西來 |
| 03:41:13,290 | 03:41:15,290 | 保障我的權益所以我是 |
| 03:41:15,290 | 03:41:17,290 | 今天這個案子我們可以再討論 |
| 03:41:19,240 | 03:41:21,240 | 政委員 |
| 03:41:20,470 | 03:41:22,470 | 我說明一下 |
| 03:41:22,710 | 03:41:24,710 | 我們仔細看現行的條文 |
| 03:41:25,470 | 03:41:27,470 | 政委員 |
| 03:41:26,900 | 03:41:28,900 | 政委員你先看現行 |
| 03:41:28,900 | 03:41:30,900 | 不是 |
| 03:41:31,050 | 03:41:33,050 | 不是現行的條文你看第二項 |
| 03:41:33,050 | 03:41:35,050 | 現行的條文 |
| 03:41:36,030 | 03:41:38,030 | 現行的條文第二項 |
| 03:41:38,480 | 03:41:40,480 | 原住民豈得原住民保留第12個錢 |
| 03:41:40,480 | 03:41:42,480 | 如有遺傳 |
| 03:41:42,480 | 03:41:44,480 | 以原住民為限 |
| 03:41:45,480 | 03:41:47,480 | 所以 |
| 03:41:47,050 | 03:41:53,050 | 所以不是在三波地的原住民保留地也適用 |
| 03:41:53,630 | 03:41:55,630 | 這個是中華民國政府 |
| 03:41:56,720 | 03:41:58,720 | 我只能講說中華民國政府 |
| 03:41:58,720 | 03:42:00,720 | 沒有去重視只好依附在 |
| 03:42:00,720 | 03:42:02,720 | 這個三波地保留第6條 |
| 03:42:03,770 | 03:42:05,770 | 這是第1個第2個 |
| 03:42:05,950 | 03:42:07,950 | 為什麼行政院版本 |
| 03:42:09,240 | 03:42:11,240 | 在上個會期上個上一屆 |
| 03:42:12,240 | 03:42:14,240 | 上一屆有送來為什麼沒有辦法通過 |
| 03:42:15,920 | 03:42:17,920 | 第一個 |
| 03:42:17,340 | 03:42:19,340 | 他不符合原住民族基本法 |
| 03:42:20,220 | 03:42:22,220 | 這第一個 |
| 03:42:21,540 | 03:42:23,540 | 第二個 |
| 03:42:23,920 | 03:42:27,920 | 他比現在的原住民保留地管理辦法 |
| 03:42:28,710 | 03:42:30,710 | 包括所受權定的解釋 |
| 03:42:31,670 | 03:42:33,670 | 還不如 |
| 03:42:33,710 | 03:42:35,710 | 還不如 |
| 03:42:35,710 | 03:42:37,710 | 因此沒有通過 |
| 03:42:37,320 | 03:42:39,320 | 所以 |
| 03:42:40,410 | 03:42:42,410 | 第一個 |
| 03:42:41,690 | 03:42:43,690 | 就是建民登記 |
| 03:42:43,690 | 03:42:45,690 | 既然 |
| 03:42:44,540 | 03:42:46,540 | 最高行政法案已經判決了 |
| 03:42:46,540 | 03:42:48,540 | 我們就應該 |
| 03:42:48,560 | 03:42:50,560 | 要立法 |
| 03:42:50,300 | 03:42:52,300 | 第二個 |
| 03:42:51,780 | 03:42:53,780 | 就是我們 |
| 03:42:53,760 | 03:42:55,760 | 一直一直的受到很大的委屈 |
| 03:42:57,810 | 03:42:59,810 | 就是我們原住民保留地 |
| 03:43:00,880 | 03:43:02,880 | 要被徵收的時候 |
| 03:43:03,310 | 03:43:05,310 | 要被徵收的時候只能用 |
| 03:43:05,310 | 03:43:07,310 | 釋架旁邊又沒有釋架 |
| 03:43:08,740 | 03:43:10,740 | 沒有釋架的時候就 |
| 03:43:10,740 | 03:43:12,740 | 所以我們才會 |
| 03:43:12,660 | 03:43:14,660 | 公告限制加四成 |
| 03:43:15,360 | 03:43:17,360 | 如果有按照剛才研議會所提的 |
| 03:43:17,360 | 03:43:19,360 | 再增加那些文字 |
| 03:43:20,350 | 03:43:22,350 | 就可以 |
| 03:43:22,350 | 03:43:24,350 | 所以這個部分 |
| 03:43:24,050 | 03:43:26,050 | 是很重要很重要 |
| 03:43:26,050 | 03:43:28,050 | 因為這個部分定了之後 |
| 03:43:28,010 | 03:43:30,010 | 也不會只限 |
| 03:43:30,010 | 03:43:32,010 | 限於山坡地的原住民保留地 |
| 03:43:32,010 | 03:43:34,010 | 也包含 |
| 03:43:34,090 | 03:43:36,090 | 這個是不得不得 |
| 03:43:36,090 | 03:43:38,090 | 我知道就法制上 |
| 03:43:38,090 | 03:43:40,090 | 是這樣 |
| 03:43:40,750 | 03:43:42,750 | 因為已經實施幾十年了 |
| 03:43:42,750 | 03:43:44,750 | 我們現在 |
| 03:43:45,390 | 03:43:47,390 | 只能先修正這個不得不先修正這個 |
| 03:43:47,390 | 03:43:49,390 | 山坡地保留地條例 |
| 03:43:49,390 | 03:43:51,390 | 真的取掉 |
| 03:43:51,540 | 03:43:53,540 | 我最後問一下 |
| 03:43:53,540 | 03:43:55,540 | 其實原則上是支持 |
| 03:43:55,540 | 03:43:57,540 | 而且你這個寫的東西 |
| 03:43:57,540 | 03:43:59,540 | 我相信政天才委員看過 |
| 03:43:59,540 | 03:44:01,540 | 應該也沒什麼意見 |
| 03:44:01,540 | 03:44:03,540 | 因為我覺得你寫的 |
| 03:44:03,540 | 03:44:05,540 | 已經有傳達過我們法制的精神 |
| 03:44:05,540 | 03:44:07,540 | 那現在中嘉濱委員考慮的只是說 |
| 03:44:07,540 | 03:44:09,540 | 這樣子的話 |
| 03:44:09,540 | 03:44:11,540 | 會不會影響 |
| 03:44:11,540 | 03:44:13,540 | 讓那些沒有在山坡地 |
| 03:44:13,540 | 03:44:15,540 | 因為我看一下你的第二項 |
| 03:44:15,540 | 03:44:17,540 | 是已經有涵蓋了 |
| 03:44:18,100 | 03:44:20,100 | 我先講一下 |
| 03:44:20,100 | 03:44:22,100 | 我先回應一下剛才報告主席 |
| 03:44:22,100 | 03:44:24,100 | 報告政經委員 |
| 03:44:24,100 | 03:44:26,100 | 我們山坡地保育條例開宗明義第一章 |
| 03:44:26,100 | 03:44:28,100 | 總則第一條山坡地之保育 |
| 03:44:28,100 | 03:44:30,100 | 利用一本條例之規定 |
| 03:44:31,160 | 03:44:33,160 | 本條例未規定者 |
| 03:44:33,160 | 03:44:35,160 | 依其他法律之規定 |
| 03:44:35,160 | 03:44:37,160 | 如果說原保地在山坡地保育條例當中 |
| 03:44:37,160 | 03:44:39,160 | 沒有規範到 |
| 03:44:39,160 | 03:44:41,160 | 那他當然未來有更好更新 |
| 03:44:41,160 | 03:44:43,160 | 更優的法律他當然會從其他法律之規定 |
| 03:44:43,160 | 03:44:45,160 | 而且第二條本條例所生主管機關 |
| 03:44:45,160 | 03:44:47,160 | 在中央市行政院內 |
| 03:44:47,160 | 03:44:49,160 | 農業部 |
| 03:44:49,700 | 03:44:51,700 | 第二項有關山坡地的地震 |
| 03:44:53,080 | 03:44:55,080 | 及營建業務 |
| 03:44:55,080 | 03:44:57,080 | 由內政部匯同 |
| 03:44:57,080 | 03:44:59,080 | 國有山坡地自委託管理 |
| 03:44:59,080 | 03:45:01,080 | 由財政部匯同 |
| 03:45:01,080 | 03:45:03,080 | 都是匯同農業部 |
| 03:45:03,080 | 03:45:05,080 | 這裡面其實在第一條第二條當中 |
| 03:45:05,080 | 03:45:07,080 | 都很以現在的情況來講 |
| 03:45:07,080 | 03:45:09,080 | 我們很多山坡 |
| 03:45:09,080 | 03:45:11,080 | 很多原保地都在 |
| 03:45:11,080 | 03:45:13,080 | 很多原保地在山坡地 |
| 03:45:13,080 | 03:45:15,080 | 可是在這裡面原住民機關 |
| 03:45:15,080 | 03:45:17,080 | 卻沒有在這個法條的第一條 |
| 03:45:17,080 | 03:45:19,080 | 跟第二條當中 |
| 03:45:19,080 | 03:45:21,080 | 如果嚴格來講我們希望將原民會 |
| 03:45:21,080 | 03:45:23,080 | 的意見納進來是要在第一條第二條當中 |
| 03:45:23,080 | 03:45:25,080 | 去表達 |
| 03:45:25,080 | 03:45:27,080 | 那至於剛剛政委員所說的 |
| 03:45:27,080 | 03:45:29,080 | 也就這裡面寫的第九項 |
| 03:45:29,080 | 03:45:31,080 | 就是說公告限制加四成 |
| 03:45:31,080 | 03:45:33,080 | 那還重優 |
| 03:45:33,080 | 03:45:35,080 | 我想這個原則進程我都支持 |
| 03:45:35,080 | 03:45:37,080 | 如果今天我們只處理這一項 |
| 03:45:37,080 | 03:45:39,080 | 那也只限定在 |
| 03:45:39,080 | 03:45:41,080 | 山坡地當中的原住民保留地 |
| 03:45:41,080 | 03:45:43,080 | 在國家要使用的時候 |
| 03:45:43,080 | 03:45:45,080 | 他必須這樣子遵循這個完全支持 |
| 03:45:46,150 | 03:45:48,150 | 但是你說的建民登記這個部分 |
| 03:45:48,150 | 03:45:50,150 | 涉及到其他的非參坡地的原保地的部分 |
| 03:45:50,150 | 03:45:52,150 | 在法體例上 |
| 03:45:52,150 | 03:45:54,150 | 一個原我們的山坡地保育條例 |
| 03:45:54,150 | 03:45:56,150 | 去含設到一個由內政部主管的土地 |
| 03:45:59,550 | 03:46:01,550 | 去涉及到其他的主管機關的範圍 |
| 03:46:01,550 | 03:46:03,550 | 恐怕 |
| 03:46:03,550 | 03:46:05,550 | 今天 |
| 03:46:05,550 | 03:46:07,550 | 為什麼要經過行政院討論 |
| 03:46:07,550 | 03:46:09,550 | 我支持原民會趕快去爭取 |
| 03:46:09,550 | 03:46:11,550 | 把過去陳志永本院來的 |
| 03:46:11,550 | 03:46:13,550 | 再送進來 |
| 03:46:13,550 | 03:46:15,550 | 但是今天原民會也是一位處長來這裡 |
| 03:46:15,550 | 03:46:17,550 | 我不曉得這個回去今天處長 |
| 03:46:17,550 | 03:46:19,550 | 你講的話這些內容 |
| 03:46:19,550 | 03:46:21,550 | 回去曾志永主委 |
| 03:46:21,550 | 03:46:23,550 | 怎麼面對我們行政院的政委 |
| 03:46:23,550 | 03:46:25,550 | 現在哪一個政委在協調 |
| 03:46:25,550 | 03:46:27,550 | 我們你說的原住民保留地 |
| 03:46:27,550 | 03:46:29,550 | 陳時中 |
| 03:46:29,550 | 03:46:31,550 | 很好你想清楚 |
| 03:46:31,550 | 03:46:33,550 | 你想清楚你今天發言是代表原民會 |
| 03:46:33,550 | 03:46:35,550 | 那未來你們原民會主委 |
| 03:46:35,550 | 03:46:37,550 | 會在行政院被問到 |
| 03:46:37,550 | 03:46:39,550 | 那我們現在處理的原住民保留地的問題 |
| 03:46:39,550 | 03:46:41,550 | 那你現在在山坡地保育條例 |
| 03:46:41,550 | 03:46:43,550 | 處長說這直接移過來就好了 |
| 03:46:43,550 | 03:46:45,550 | 那未來我們在法條 |
| 03:46:45,550 | 03:46:47,550 | 的試用上那個還沒好就可以先走 |
| 03:46:47,550 | 03:46:51,550 | 那些位落在山坡地原住民保留地的人的權益 |
| 03:46:51,550 | 03:46:53,550 | 要如何去面對 |
| 03:46:53,550 | 03:46:55,550 | 我跟主席還有中委員 |
| 03:46:55,550 | 03:46:57,550 | 還有我們請問二委員報告 |
| 03:46:57,550 | 03:46:59,550 | 當然就是說就原民會的立場來看 |
| 03:46:59,550 | 03:47:01,550 | 我們會裡面當然就是說 |
| 03:47:01,550 | 03:47:03,550 | 優先考量就是說 |
| 03:47:03,550 | 03:47:05,550 | 我們要抱怨處理的那個原保地條例 |
| 03:47:05,550 | 03:47:07,550 | 那個部分因為光試用範圍 |
| 03:47:07,550 | 03:47:09,550 | 的部分就已經突破現在山坡地 |
| 03:47:09,550 | 03:47:11,550 | 保育利用條例的山坡地 |
| 03:47:11,550 | 03:47:13,550 | 範圍之內那個是一個 |
| 03:47:13,550 | 03:47:15,550 | 根本解決之道所以我們會 |
| 03:47:15,550 | 03:47:17,550 | 覺得如果說用我們的 |
| 03:47:17,550 | 03:47:19,550 | 專法原保條例的專法 |
| 03:47:19,550 | 03:47:21,550 | 去處理原保地他的一個試用 |
| 03:47:21,550 | 03:47:23,550 | 範圍的部分會比現在 |
| 03:47:23,550 | 03:47:25,550 | 現在只有光一條去處理是要妥自 |
| 03:47:25,550 | 03:47:27,550 | 所以這個是我們優先考 |
| 03:47:27,550 | 03:47:29,550 | 政策面優先考量的對象 |
| 03:47:29,550 | 03:47:31,550 | 處理的方式 |
| 03:47:31,550 | 03:47:33,550 | 那第二個就是說今天如果 |
| 03:47:33,550 | 03:47:35,550 | 剛剛那個政委講的今天如果說 |
| 03:47:35,550 | 03:47:37,550 | 那個原保原保地 |
| 03:47:37,550 | 03:47:39,550 | 條例那個部分 |
| 03:47:39,550 | 03:47:41,550 | 我們因為我們之前111年已經報過一次 |
| 03:47:41,550 | 03:47:43,550 | 那個時候的版本 |
| 03:47:43,550 | 03:47:45,550 | 的部分的確 |
| 03:47:45,550 | 03:47:47,550 | 有一些可能在審查上面 |
| 03:47:47,550 | 03:47:49,550 | 有一些不盡完備之處 |
| 03:47:49,550 | 03:47:51,550 | 那我們所以我們在114年 |
| 03:47:51,550 | 03:47:53,550 | 在重新抱怨的時候已經當 |
| 03:47:53,550 | 03:47:55,550 | 有參採當時我們 |
| 03:47:55,550 | 03:47:57,550 | 諸多立委的修正意見重新 |
| 03:47:57,550 | 03:47:59,550 | 調整過之後再重新抱怨 |
| 03:47:59,550 | 03:48:01,550 | 那我相信我們院裡面這邊 |
| 03:48:01,550 | 03:48:03,550 | 也會來儘速來審議這樣一個條例 |
| 03:48:03,550 | 03:48:05,550 | 用這樣子一個專法 |
| 03:48:05,550 | 03:48:07,550 | 的方式來處理會比用 |
| 03:48:07,550 | 03:48:09,550 | 單一條文的部分來 |
| 03:48:09,550 | 03:48:11,550 | 就是依附在我們山坡地 |
| 03:48:11,550 | 03:48:13,550 | 保育利用條例的部分來處理 |
| 03:48:13,550 | 03:48:15,550 | 會比較為妥當 |
| 03:48:15,550 | 03:48:17,550 | 因為這個是退了求其次 |
| 03:48:17,550 | 03:48:19,550 | 的一個方式 |
| 03:48:19,550 | 03:48:21,550 | 那至於說剛委員所提到的那個 |
| 03:48:21,550 | 03:48:23,550 | 有關於部落 |
| 03:48:23,550 | 03:48:25,550 | 取得原保地主體的那個部分 |
| 03:48:25,550 | 03:48:27,550 | 因為我們這個 |
| 03:48:27,550 | 03:48:29,550 | 我們覺得這個是要 |
| 03:48:29,550 | 03:48:31,550 | 重藏記憶比較好 |
| 03:48:31,550 | 03:48:33,550 | 因為畢竟這個部分可能要完整的一個 |
| 03:48:33,550 | 03:48:35,550 | 配套機制光一個條文的部分恐怕 |
| 03:48:35,550 | 03:48:37,550 | 會在適用上 |
| 03:48:37,550 | 03:48:39,550 | 產生很大的爭議 |
| 03:48:39,550 | 03:48:41,550 | 以上補充 |
| 03:48:42,610 | 03:48:44,610 | 我們先休息三分鐘 |
| 03:48:48,860 | 03:48:50,860 | 第九項我可以嗎 |
| 03:48:52,010 | 03:48:54,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:48:54,010 | 03:48:56,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:48:56,010 | 03:48:58,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:48:58,010 | 03:49:00,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:49:00,010 | 03:49:02,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:49:02,010 | 03:49:04,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:49:04,010 | 03:49:06,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:49:06,010 | 03:49:08,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:49:08,010 | 03:49:10,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:49:10,010 | 03:49:12,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:49:12,010 | 03:49:14,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:49:14,010 | 03:49:16,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:49:16,010 | 03:49:18,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:49:18,010 | 03:49:20,010 | 第十項 |
| 03:48:52,890 | 03:48:54,890 | 你的意我常常在聽到 |
| 03:49:00,060 | 03:49:02,060 | 你 |
| 03:49:05,530 | 03:49:07,530 | 你 |
| 03:49:12,970 | 03:49:14,970 | 你 |
| 03:49:14,620 | 03:49:16,620 | 我剛打給 |
| 03:49:16,620 | 03:49:18,620 | 我聽你講 |
| 03:49:18,620 | 03:49:20,620 | 我沒有聽到 |
| 03:49:20,620 | 03:49:22,620 | 之前 |
| 03:49:22,620 | 03:49:24,620 | 現在 |
| 03:49:24,620 | 03:49:26,620 | 現在 |
| 03:49:26,620 | 03:49:28,620 | 第一項到最後 |
| 03:49:28,620 | 03:49:30,620 | 最後一項 |
| 03:49:30,620 | 03:49:32,620 | 都是在處理原保地 |
| 03:49:32,620 | 03:49:34,620 | 都是在 |
| 03:49:34,620 | 03:49:36,620 | 3T |
| 03:49:36,620 | 03:49:38,620 | 2T |
| 03:49:38,620 | 03:49:40,620 | 2T |
| 03:49:40,620 | 03:49:42,620 | 2T |
| 03:49:38,990 | 03:49:40,990 | 2T |
| 03:49:40,990 | 03:49:42,990 | 2T |
| 03:49:42,990 | 03:49:44,990 | 2T |
| 03:49:44,990 | 03:49:46,990 | 2T |
| 03:49:46,990 | 03:49:48,990 | 2T |
| 03:49:48,990 | 03:49:50,990 | 2T |
| 03:49:50,990 | 03:49:52,990 | 2T |
| 03:49:52,990 | 03:49:54,990 | 2T |
| 03:49:54,990 | 03:49:56,990 | 2T |
| 03:49:56,990 | 03:49:58,990 | 2T |
| 03:49:58,990 | 03:50:00,990 | 2T |
| 03:50:00,990 | 03:50:02,990 | 2T |
| 03:50:02,990 | 03:50:04,990 | 2T |
| 03:50:04,990 | 03:50:06,990 | 2T |
| 03:50:04,080 | 03:50:06,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:06,080 | 03:50:08,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:08,080 | 03:50:10,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:10,080 | 03:50:12,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:12,080 | 03:50:14,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:14,080 | 03:50:16,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:16,080 | 03:50:18,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:18,080 | 03:50:20,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:20,080 | 03:50:22,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:22,080 | 03:50:24,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:24,080 | 03:50:26,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:26,080 | 03:50:28,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:28,080 | 03:50:30,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:30,080 | 03:50:32,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:32,080 | 03:50:34,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:34,080 | 03:50:36,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:36,080 | 03:50:38,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:38,080 | 03:50:40,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:40,080 | 03:50:42,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:42,080 | 03:50:44,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:44,080 | 03:50:46,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:46,080 | 03:50:48,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:48,080 | 03:50:50,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:50,080 | 03:50:52,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:52,080 | 03:50:54,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:54,080 | 03:50:56,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:56,080 | 03:50:58,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:58,080 | 03:51:00,080 | 2T |
| 03:50:53,560 | 03:50:55,560 | 2T |
| 03:50:55,560 | 03:50:57,560 | 2T |
| 03:50:57,560 | 03:50:59,560 | 2T |
| 03:50:59,560 | 03:51:01,560 | 2T |
| 03:51:01,560 | 03:51:03,560 | 2T |
| 03:51:03,560 | 03:51:05,560 | 2T |
| 03:51:05,560 | 03:51:07,560 | 2T |
| 03:51:07,560 | 03:51:09,560 | 2T |
| 03:51:09,560 | 03:51:11,560 | 2T |
| 03:51:11,560 | 03:51:13,560 | 2T |
| 03:51:13,560 | 03:51:15,560 | 2T |
| 03:51:15,560 | 03:51:17,560 | 2T |
| 03:51:17,560 | 03:51:19,560 | 2T |
| 03:51:19,560 | 03:51:21,560 | 2T |
| 03:50:58,840 | 03:51:00,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:00,840 | 03:51:02,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:02,840 | 03:51:04,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:04,840 | 03:51:06,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:06,840 | 03:51:08,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:08,840 | 03:51:10,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:10,840 | 03:51:12,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:12,840 | 03:51:14,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:14,840 | 03:51:16,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:16,840 | 03:51:18,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:18,840 | 03:51:20,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:20,840 | 03:51:22,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:22,840 | 03:51:24,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:24,840 | 03:51:26,840 | 2T |
| 03:51:23,300 | 03:51:25,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:25,300 | 03:51:27,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:27,300 | 03:51:29,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:29,300 | 03:51:31,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:31,300 | 03:51:33,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:33,300 | 03:51:35,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:35,300 | 03:51:37,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:37,300 | 03:51:39,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:39,300 | 03:51:41,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:41,300 | 03:51:43,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:43,300 | 03:51:45,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:45,300 | 03:51:47,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:47,300 | 03:51:49,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:49,300 | 03:51:51,300 | 2T |
| 03:51:44,980 | 03:51:46,980 | 2T |
| 03:51:46,980 | 03:51:48,980 | 2T |
| 03:51:48,980 | 03:51:50,980 | 2T |
| 03:51:50,980 | 03:51:52,980 | 2T |
| 03:51:52,980 | 03:51:54,980 | 2T |
| 03:51:54,980 | 03:51:56,980 | 2T |
| 03:51:56,980 | 03:51:58,980 | 2T |
| 03:51:58,980 | 03:52:00,980 | 2T |
| 03:52:00,980 | 03:52:02,980 | 2T |
| 03:52:02,980 | 03:52:04,980 | 2T |
| 03:52:04,980 | 03:52:06,980 | 2T |
| 03:52:06,980 | 03:52:08,980 | 2T |
| 03:52:08,980 | 03:52:10,980 | 2T |
| 03:52:10,980 | 03:52:12,980 | 2T |
| 03:51:46,750 | 03:51:48,750 | 2T |
| 03:51:48,750 | 03:51:50,750 | 2T |
| 03:51:50,750 | 03:51:52,750 | 2T |
| 03:51:52,750 | 03:51:54,750 | 2T |
| 03:51:54,750 | 03:51:56,750 | 2T |
| 03:51:56,750 | 03:51:58,750 | 2T |
| 03:51:58,750 | 03:52:00,750 | 2T |
| 03:52:00,750 | 03:52:02,750 | 2T |
| 03:52:02,750 | 03:52:04,750 | 2T |
| 03:52:04,750 | 03:52:06,750 | 2T |
| 03:52:06,750 | 03:52:08,750 | 2T |
| 03:52:08,750 | 03:52:10,750 | 2T |
| 03:52:10,750 | 03:52:12,750 | 2T |
| 03:52:12,750 | 03:52:14,750 | 2T |
| 03:51:51,410 | 03:51:53,410 | 2T |
| 03:51:53,410 | 03:51:55,410 | 2T |
| 03:51:55,410 | 03:51:57,410 | 2T |
| 03:51:57,410 | 03:51:59,410 | 2T |
| 03:51:59,410 | 03:52:01,410 | 2T |
| 03:52:01,410 | 03:52:03,410 | 2T |
| 03:52:03,410 | 03:52:05,410 | 2T |
| 03:52:05,410 | 03:52:07,410 | 2T |
| 03:52:07,410 | 03:52:09,410 | 2T |
| 03:52:09,410 | 03:52:11,410 | 2T |
| 03:52:11,410 | 03:52:13,410 | 2T |
| 03:52:13,410 | 03:52:15,410 | 2T |
| 03:52:15,410 | 03:52:17,410 | 2T |
| 03:52:17,410 | 03:52:19,410 | 2T |
| 03:51:52,810 | 03:51:54,810 | 2T |
| 03:51:55,580 | 03:51:57,580 | 2T |
| 03:51:57,580 | 03:51:59,580 | 2T |
| 03:51:59,580 | 03:52:01,580 | 2T |
| 03:52:01,580 | 03:52:03,580 | 2T |
| 03:52:03,580 | 03:52:05,580 | 2T |
| 03:52:05,580 | 03:52:07,580 | 2T |
| 03:52:07,580 | 03:52:09,580 | 2T |
| 03:52:09,580 | 03:52:11,580 | 2T |
| 03:52:11,580 | 03:52:13,580 | 2T |
| 03:52:13,580 | 03:52:15,580 | 2T |
| 03:52:15,580 | 03:52:17,580 | 2T |
| 03:52:17,580 | 03:52:19,580 | 2T |
| 03:52:19,580 | 03:52:21,580 | 2T |
| 03:52:21,580 | 03:52:23,580 | 2T |
| 03:52:17,890 | 03:52:19,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:19,890 | 03:52:21,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:21,890 | 03:52:23,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:23,890 | 03:52:25,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:25,890 | 03:52:27,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:27,890 | 03:52:29,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:29,890 | 03:52:31,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:31,890 | 03:52:33,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:33,890 | 03:52:35,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:35,890 | 03:52:37,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:37,890 | 03:52:39,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:39,890 | 03:52:41,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:41,890 | 03:52:43,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:43,890 | 03:52:45,890 | 2T |
| 03:52:31,560 | 03:52:33,560 | 2T |
| 03:52:34,930 | 03:52:36,930 | 那原條文那什麼 |
| 03:52:36,870 | 03:52:38,870 | 就是那個2跟9 |
| 03:52:41,010 | 03:52:43,010 | 好,有了啦,你做那個 |
| 03:52:43,110 | 03:52:45,110 | 公告限值加4成 |
| 03:52:45,110 | 03:52:47,110 | 還重優 |
| 03:52:47,110 | 03:52:49,110 | 公告低價加4成還重優 |
| 03:52:49,110 | 03:52:51,110 | 真的,他說得對 |
| 03:52:51,110 | 03:52:53,110 | 因為公告市價不高啦 |
| 03:52:52,650 | 03:52:54,650 | 我們繼續休息 |
| 03:52:54,650 | 03:52:56,650 | 直到你們改完條文 |
| 03:52:56,650 | 03:52:58,650 | 我們先玩修正動議,我們再來念 |
| 03:53:00,290 | 03:53:02,290 | 你們再等一等,讓他們下出來,打出來,再修正動議 |
| 03:53:06,490 | 03:53:08,490 | 真的 |
| 03:53:09,100 | 03:53:11,100 | 水島 |
| 03:53:17,320 | 03:53:21,320 | 好,我們請一併宣讀這個協商協論 |
| 03:53:21,320 | 03:53:23,320 | 協商協論 |
| 03:53:23,320 | 03:53:25,320 | 協商協論 |
| 03:53:25,320 | 03:53:27,320 | 第二條,照委員萬美齡等17人 |
| 03:53:27,320 | 03:53:29,320 | 委員林大化等18人提案通過 |
| 03:53:29,320 | 03:53:31,320 | 第三條,照委員洪玉祥等4人 |
| 03:53:31,320 | 03:53:33,320 | 所提再修正動議通過 |
| 03:53:33,320 | 03:53:35,320 | 第三十二條,照委員洪玉祥等4人 |
| 03:53:35,320 | 03:53:37,320 | 所提再修正動議通過 |
| 03:53:37,320 | 03:53:39,320 | 第三十三條,照委員洪玉祥等4人 |
| 03:53:39,320 | 03:53:41,320 | 所提再修正動議通過 |
| 03:53:41,320 | 03:53:43,320 | 宣傳筆 |
| 03:53:44,540 | 03:53:46,540 | 請問各位同學在剛剛宣讀的協商協論通過,請問有意義? |
| 03:53:49,080 | 03:53:51,080 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:53:51,210 | 03:53:53,210 | 請問各位同學在剛剛宣讀的協商協論通過,請問有意義? |
| 03:53:59,560 | 03:54:01,560 | 現在散播地還沒啊 |
| 03:54:01,900 | 03:54:03,900 | 現在散播地還沒啊 |
| 03:54:03,150 | 03:54:05,150 | 等一下一定唸好了 |
| 03:54:14,510 | 03:54:20,510 | 好,討論事項呢,有關隨圖保持法不論條件相關修正草案等事案審查完整並讓你去審查報告 |
| 03:54:20,510 | 03:54:22,510 | 提報院會討論 |
| 03:54:23,810 | 03:54:25,810 | 請問需不需教黨團協商 |
| 03:54:25,810 | 03:54:27,810 | 不需要 |
| 03:54:27,870 | 03:54:33,870 | 院會討論時有本席說明,請談通過至條文相關法制用以授權主席及議事人員整理 |
| 03:54:39,860 | 03:54:41,860 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:54:41,860 | 03:54:43,860 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:54:43,860 | 03:54:45,860 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:54:45,860 | 03:54:47,860 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:54:47,860 | 03:54:49,860 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:54:49,860 | 03:54:51,860 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:54:51,860 | 03:54:53,860 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:54:53,860 | 03:54:55,860 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:54:55,860 | 03:54:57,860 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:54:57,860 | 03:54:59,860 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:54:59,860 | 03:55:01,860 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:01,860 | 03:55:03,860 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:03,860 | 03:55:05,860 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:05,860 | 03:55:07,860 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:54:41,190 | 03:54:43,190 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:54:43,190 | 03:54:45,190 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:54:45,190 | 03:54:47,190 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:54:47,190 | 03:54:49,190 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:54:49,190 | 03:54:51,190 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:54:51,190 | 03:54:53,190 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:54:53,190 | 03:54:55,190 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:54:55,190 | 03:54:57,190 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:54:57,190 | 03:54:59,190 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:54:59,190 | 03:55:01,190 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:01,190 | 03:55:03,190 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:03,190 | 03:55:05,190 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:05,190 | 03:55:07,190 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:07,190 | 03:55:09,190 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:54:50,230 | 03:54:52,230 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:54:52,230 | 03:54:54,230 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:54:54,230 | 03:54:56,230 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:54:56,230 | 03:54:58,230 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:54:58,230 | 03:55:00,230 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:00,230 | 03:55:02,230 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:02,230 | 03:55:04,230 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:04,230 | 03:55:06,230 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:06,230 | 03:55:08,230 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:08,230 | 03:55:10,230 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:10,230 | 03:55:12,230 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:12,230 | 03:55:14,230 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:14,230 | 03:55:16,230 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:16,230 | 03:55:18,230 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:00,680 | 03:55:02,680 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:02,680 | 03:55:04,680 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:04,680 | 03:55:06,680 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:06,680 | 03:55:08,680 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:08,680 | 03:55:10,680 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:10,680 | 03:55:12,680 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:12,680 | 03:55:14,680 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:14,680 | 03:55:16,680 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:16,680 | 03:55:18,680 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:18,680 | 03:55:20,680 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:20,680 | 03:55:22,680 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:22,680 | 03:55:24,680 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:24,680 | 03:55:26,680 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:26,680 | 03:55:28,680 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:03,650 | 03:55:05,650 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:05,650 | 03:55:07,650 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:07,650 | 03:55:09,650 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:09,650 | 03:55:11,650 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:11,650 | 03:55:13,650 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:13,650 | 03:55:15,650 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:15,650 | 03:55:17,650 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:17,650 | 03:55:19,650 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:19,650 | 03:55:21,650 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:21,650 | 03:55:23,650 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:23,650 | 03:55:25,650 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:25,650 | 03:55:27,650 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:27,650 | 03:55:29,650 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:29,650 | 03:55:31,650 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:36,980 | 03:55:38,980 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:38,980 | 03:55:40,980 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:40,980 | 03:55:42,980 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:42,980 | 03:55:44,980 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:44,980 | 03:55:46,980 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:46,980 | 03:55:48,980 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:48,980 | 03:55:50,980 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:50,980 | 03:55:52,980 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:52,980 | 03:55:54,980 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:54,980 | 03:55:56,980 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:56,980 | 03:55:58,980 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:58,980 | 03:56:00,980 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:00,980 | 03:56:02,980 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:02,980 | 03:56:04,980 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:55,020 | 03:55:57,020 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:55:57,020 | 03:55:59,020 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:55:59,020 | 03:56:01,020 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:01,020 | 03:56:03,020 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:03,020 | 03:56:05,020 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:05,020 | 03:56:07,020 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:07,020 | 03:56:09,020 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:09,020 | 03:56:11,020 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:11,020 | 03:56:13,020 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:13,020 | 03:56:15,020 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:15,020 | 03:56:17,020 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:17,020 | 03:56:19,020 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:19,020 | 03:56:21,020 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:21,020 | 03:56:23,020 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:01,410 | 03:56:03,410 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:03,410 | 03:56:05,410 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:05,410 | 03:56:07,410 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:07,410 | 03:56:09,410 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:09,410 | 03:56:11,410 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:11,410 | 03:56:13,410 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:13,410 | 03:56:15,410 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:15,410 | 03:56:17,410 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:17,410 | 03:56:19,410 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:19,410 | 03:56:21,410 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:21,410 | 03:56:23,410 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:23,410 | 03:56:25,410 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:25,410 | 03:56:27,410 | 請問有意義? |
| 03:56:27,410 | 03:56:29,410 | 有意義,通過 |
| 03:56:07,130 | 03:56:09,130 | 這個第二項已經很重要了 |
| 03:56:09,900 | 03:56:11,900 | 這個可以了,第二項可以了 |
| 03:56:12,970 | 03:56:14,970 | 再來就是第九項 |
| 03:56:14,970 | 03:56:16,970 | 第九項 |
| 03:56:16,970 | 03:56:18,970 | 改成第六項了 |
| 03:56:18,970 | 03:56:20,970 | 第七項 |
| 03:56:21,680 | 03:56:23,680 | 對,改第六項 |
| 03:56:25,880 | 03:56:27,880 | 這部分是照政委員的意見 |
| 03:56:27,880 | 03:56:29,880 | 跟中委員的意見去做 |
| 03:56:29,880 | 03:56:31,880 | 修正的 |
| 03:56:33,240 | 03:56:35,240 | 對 |
| 03:56:37,780 | 03:56:39,780 | 可以了 |
| 03:56:39,820 | 03:56:41,820 | 我們簽一下 |
| 03:56:42,670 | 03:56:44,670 | 謝謝 |
| 03:58:06,860 | 03:58:08,860 | 聽出來就好了 |
| 03:58:08,800 | 03:58:10,800 | 再印了 |
| 03:58:10,800 | 03:58:12,800 | 按你們的機會 |
| 03:58:12,800 | 03:58:14,800 | 來電話 |
| 03:58:18,840 | 03:58:20,840 | 老鼠跟你講一下 |
| 03:58:20,840 | 03:58:22,840 | 不要被人家困了 |
| 03:58:22,840 | 03:58:24,840 | 我說表現很好 |
| 03:58:26,280 | 03:58:28,280 | 主委全力支持 |
| 03:58:39,970 | 03:58:41,970 | 來,你簽第一個 |
| 03:58:41,970 | 03:58:43,970 | 你用力爭取的 |
| 03:58:43,970 | 03:58:45,970 | 不要被人家困了 |
| 03:58:45,970 | 03:58:47,970 | 你要簽第一個 |
| 03:58:51,410 | 03:58:53,410 | 因為原住民,我們真的尊重原住民 |
| 03:58:53,410 | 03:58:55,410 | 但是今天你只有一個人來 |
| 03:58:55,410 | 03:58:57,410 | 我是勉強 |
| 03:58:57,410 | 03:58:59,410 | 謝謝委員 |
| 03:59:01,080 | 03:59:03,080 | 好著留下來 |
| 03:59:03,080 | 03:59:05,080 | 有爭議的在留著 |
| 03:59:04,760 | 03:59:06,760 | 謝謝 |
| 03:59:06,750 | 03:59:08,750 | 這個長片給你們 |
| 03:59:09,450 | 03:59:11,450 | 等一下,我拍一下 |
| 03:59:24,500 | 03:59:26,500 | 我其實拍了 |
| 03:59:26,500 | 03:59:28,500 | 從這歷史文獻以後 |
| 03:59:28,500 | 03:59:30,500 | 讓張偉簽了之後 |
| 03:59:30,500 | 03:59:32,500 | 簽一下才拍 |
| 03:59:32,500 | 03:59:34,500 | 兩個不算數 |
| 03:59:35,270 | 03:59:37,270 | 你趕快簽一下,我們再拍 |
| 03:59:37,270 | 03:59:39,270 | 這個以後放在我們原住民博物館裡面 |
| 03:59:39,270 | 03:59:41,270 | 這天才委員的項目之下 |
| 03:59:43,880 | 03:59:45,880 | 太多了 |
| 03:59:45,880 | 03:59:47,880 | 你很多喔,你占空標餅喔 |
| 03:59:48,420 | 03:59:50,420 | 你這個爆戰功 |
| 03:59:54,100 | 03:59:56,100 | 還要拍嗎 |
| 03:59:56,100 | 03:59:58,100 | 不用 |
| 03:59:58,100 | 04:00:00,100 | 我就直接照委員證件走給三個 |
| 04:00:03,480 | 04:00:05,480 | 謝謝 |
| 04:00:05,830 | 04:00:07,830 | 拜拜 |
| 04:00:08,360 | 04:00:10,360 | 好 |
| 04:00:11,300 | 04:00:13,300 | 打人 |
| 04:00:13,340 | 04:00:15,340 | 請先讀協商結論 |
| 04:00:37,880 | 04:00:39,880 | 再修正動議通過 |
| 04:00:39,880 | 04:00:41,880 | 第三組條,照委員洪義祥等四人所提 |
| 04:00:41,880 | 04:00:43,880 | 再修正動議通過 |
| 04:00:43,880 | 04:00:45,880 | 第三組條,照委員鄭天才等三人所提 |
| 04:00:45,880 | 04:00:47,880 | 再修正動議通過 |
| 04:00:47,880 | 04:00:49,880 | 宣傳筆 |
| 04:00:49,880 | 04:00:51,880 | 請問各位同仁,在剛剛宣讀協商結論通過 |
| 04:00:51,880 | 04:00:53,880 | 有無異議 |
| 04:00:53,060 | 04:00:55,060 | 沒有異議通過 |
| 04:00:55,410 | 04:00:57,410 | 討論事項 |
| 04:00:57,410 | 04:00:59,410 | 三波地保育利用條例部門條文相關 |
| 04:00:59,410 | 04:01:01,410 | 修正草案等報案審查玩具 |
| 04:01:01,410 | 04:01:03,410 | 並按凝聚審查報告提包 |
| 04:01:03,410 | 04:01:05,410 | 院會討論,不需交由黨團協商 |
| 04:01:05,410 | 04:01:07,410 | 院會討論時 |
| 04:01:07,410 | 04:01:09,410 | 有本席說明,審查通過之條文 |
| 04:01:09,410 | 04:01:11,410 | 相關法制用以授權主席及 |
| 04:01:11,410 | 04:01:13,410 | 議事人員處理 |
| 04:01:13,410 | 04:01:15,410 | 本日所列議程處理 |
| 04:01:15,410 | 04:01:17,410 | 玩具,現在上會 |
| 04:01:17,410 | 04:01:19,410 | 謝謝各位 |
| 04:01:23,810 | 04:01:25,810 | 請不吝點贊訂閱轉發打賞支持明鏡與點點欄目 |
| 04:01:24,860 | 04:01:26,860 | 明天的明天就有啦 |
| 04:01:29,720 | 04:01:31,720 | 謝謝 |