| IVOD_ID |
17587 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/17587 |
| 日期 |
2026-07-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-22-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
19 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Full |
| 開始時間 |
2026-07-13T08:33:44+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-07-13T17:33:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
08:59:16 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d9d49b9c4fb7920ea659b5d59e96cfac46d94474d9c748abc78e84b1f203167995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-07-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀、行政院食品安全辦公室主任許輔列席就「校園食品安全把關機制及致癌油事件因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席就「學生出缺勤管理及校園秩序維護政策亂象檢討與改善措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
三、審查教育部函為修正「高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法」部分條文及「公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法」第五條、第六條之一條文案。
四、審查
(一)國民黨黨團擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案。
(二)委員林德福等25人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法增訂第三條之二條文草案」案。
(………因系統字數上限，詳見議事日程)） |
| 委員名稱 |
完整會議 |
| 委員發言時間 |
08:33:44 - 17:33:00 |
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1590.487 |
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報告委員會初期委員已足法定人數現在開會現在先進行報告事項請議事人員宣讀上次的會議事錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
1601.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
1629.542 |
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立法院第十一屆第五會期教育及文化委員會第十八次全體委員會議事錄時間中華民國一五年六月二九日上午九時至下午一時十三分一五年七月一日上午九時三分至下午三時三十分一五年七月二日上午九時四分至下午八點八時四十四十八分地點本案請選擇一零一會議室出席委員羅志強委員等十四人列席委員許中興委員等十三人列席人員六月二九日教育部政務次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
1630.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
1650.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
張廖萬堅率統有關人員7月1日運動部部長李揚率統有關人員7月2日文化部部長李衍率統有關人員主席羅昭吉委員評委6月29日報告事項宣讀上次會議的決定議事律確定討論事項審查委員蘇青田等20人擬具國民教育法第三條條文修正常案等10案 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
1651.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
1680.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
本日会议有罗志强委员等15人提出质询军军教育部政务次长张亮万杰及相关人员及其答复说明另有委员葛如军徐新颖提出书面质询决议一报告及寻答完毕二对于委员质询要求提供相关资料为其答复部分请相关机关尽数以书面答复三国民教育法部分条文相关修正查案另定期继续审查经表决通过提案一项通过临时提案一项7月1日讨论事项继续审查一五年度中央政府总预算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
1681.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
1700.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
有關運動部及首署單位預算案等六案決議1.115年度中央政府總預算案有關運動部及首署單位預算案審查環境審查結果如下稅務部份第二款第189項照例第三款156及157項均照例第四款202項照例第七款199 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
1702.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
1717.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
至200項軍造類 稅出部分第18款第一項造類本項通過決議128項第二項造類本項通過決議48項第27款直轄市及縣市政府第9項第一目及第二目軍造類 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
1718.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
1732.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
這15年度專案政府總預算案有關運動部主管運動發展基金預算案審查完畢審查結果如下運動發展基金基金來源基金用途本期短處軍造類街角公庫無列數不關預算無列數通過決議25項 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
1734.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
1751.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
3.1.5年度行政法人國家運動訓練中心預算案審查完畢拟據審查報告審提請院會公決不須交由黨團協商院會討論時由羅昭吉委員聽委補充說明審查結果如下業務總收入業務總支出本期剩餘軍造類街角工庫無列數轉投資計畫無列數固定資產 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
1754.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
1781.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
建設改良擴充照例通過決議八項四一五年度行政法人國家運動科學中心預算案審查環境審理據審查報告提請院會公決不須交由黨團協商院會討論時有樓召集委員聽委補充說明審查結果如下業務總收入業務總支出本期剩餘均照例固定資產建設改良擴充照例國庫增撥基金而無劣數通過決議十三項五 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
1784.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
1798.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
114年度及115年度行政法人國家運動產業中心發展中心預算案審查完畢拟據審查報告提請院會公決不需交由黨團協商院會討論時有樓召集委員會補充說明審查結果如下 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
1799.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
1826.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
业务总收入业务总支出本期剩余均照列固定资产建设改良扩充照列国库增拨基金额无列数国家运动产业发展中心一五年度预算案业务总支出业务总收入业务总支出本期剩余均照列固定资产建设改良扩充照列国库增拨基金额无列数通过决议五项六对于委员咨询要求提供相关资料为其答复部分请相关机关尽数以顺便答复 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
1827.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
1847.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
7.在不影響文藝前提下授權議事人員115年度中央政府總預算案審查報告及黨團協商之範例整理8.15年度中央政府總預算案有關運動部及首屬單位預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款運動部主管部分預算運動發展基金副屬單位預算案 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
1849.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
1866.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
15年度行政法人國家運動訓練中心國家運動科學中心預算案14年度及15年度行政法人國家運動產業發展中心預算案全部審查完畢通過臨時提案兩項7月2日討論事項繼續審查15年度中央政府總預算案有關 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
1866.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
1881.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
文化部級首署單位預算案等五案決議一一五年度專案政府總預算案有關文化部級首署單位預算案審查完畢審查結果如下第二款第196項至201項均照例第202項至204項均無類數第205項照例第206項無類數第三款第162項至171項均照例第四款第208項照例本項通過決議一項 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
1897.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
1904.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
第209項至218項軍造類第7款206至216項軍造類稅出部分第20款第1項除第10目戰造類是所屬非營業特種基金審議確定再行調整外檢列第5目第1節1000萬元其以軍造類本項提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
1920.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
1929.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
五案保留送院會處理本項通過決議173項第二項照列本項通過決議25項第三項照列本項通過決議13項第四項照列本項通過決議3項第五項照列本項通過決議4項第六項照列本項通過決議3項 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
1939.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
1957.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第七項照例本項通過決議一項第八項照例本項通過決議兩項第九項照例本項通過決議四項第十項照例本項通過決議一項第十一項照例本項通過決議三項第二十七款第十一項第一目至第三目均照例三 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
1958.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
1974.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
一五年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部主管國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案審查完畢審查結果如下一五總收入一五總支出本期短促均照列絕角公庫淨額無列數轉投資計劃無列數固定資產建設改良擴充照列 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
1975.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
2002.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
國庫增撥基金額造例通過決議兩項三15年度專案政府總預算案有關文化部主管文化發展基金單位預算案審查完略審查結果如下基金來源基金用途本期剩餘均造例結繳公庫金額無列數通過決議一項四15年度行政法人國家表演藝術中心預算案審查完略拟據審查報告提請院會公決不需交由黨團協商院會討論時由羅昭吉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
2004.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
2005.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
法定人數不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
2023.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
2045.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
文化內容、策進院預算案、審查環境、拟據審查報告提請院會公決不須交由黨團協商院會討論時由羅昭級委員聽委補充說明審查結果如下業務總收入、業務總支出、本期短促均照例結繳公庫金額無列數轉投資計劃無列數固定資產建設改良擴充照例國庫增波基金額無列數通過結議兩項 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
2047.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
2060.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
6.行政義務年度行政法人國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案審查完略你據審查報告提請院會公決不須交由黨團協商院會討論時有樓召集委員聽委補充說明審查結果如下1. |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
2060.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
2061.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
業務總收入2. |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
2061.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
2062.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
業務總支出3. |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
2062.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
2063.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
本期短處均照列4. |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
2063.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
2063.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
節繳公庫金額5. |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
2063.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
2064.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
無列數 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
2066.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
2084.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
轉投資計劃五類數固定資產建設改良擴充照例國庫增波基金的五類數通過決議兩項七對於委員質詢要求提供資料或未及答案部分請相關機關監事委順便答覆八在不影響維議前提下授權議事人員一一一五年度專方政府總預算案審查報告與黨團協商做範例整理 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
2086.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
2109.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
9.15年度專案政府總預算案有關文化部及首屬單位預算案直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款文化部主管部分預算案國立文化機構作業基金副屬單位預算案文化發展基金副屬單位預算案15年度行政法人國家表演藝術中心文化內容測試院國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案全部審查完略10.本會主審 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
2110.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
2130.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
中華民國一五年度中央政府總預算案公務預算及非營業基金預算部分均已審查完畢有關正式別稅出預算隨同以上機關別審查結果調整你據審查報告韓府財政委員會審查結果交須交由黨團協商因為討論時由羅昭吉委員聽委補充說明宣讀完畢 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
2134.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
2159.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
好,在場委員未達一決人數三人,議事錄我們稍後再進行確定。現在,本次的會議一程式邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部政務次長林靜怡、行政院食品安全辦公室主任許甫列席就校園食品安全把關機制以及致癌油事件的因應作為進行專題報告並備詢。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
2164.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
2181.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
邀请教育部部长郑英耀列习就学生出勤管理及校园秩序维护政策的乱象检讨改善的措施进行专题报告并被质询审查教育部含为修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
2182.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
2183.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
第五条第六条之一条文案 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
2199.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
2221.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
以及审查国民党党团拟据教育经费编列与管理法第三条条文修正等14案委员罗志祥等17人之提案应无不复议同意书故不予审查审查委员叶元之等19人拟据国民转介教育条例草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
2222.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
2248.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
審查委員范雲等16人擬拒學校公參法草案等事實案其中教育經費編列與管理法相關修正草案及國民轉介教育條例草案僅進行詢答首先介紹在場的委員羅志強委員接著介紹與會的官員教育部部長鄭英耀 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
2252.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
2277.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
國民及學生教育署署長彭富元青年發展署署長陳雪玉衛生福利部政務次長林靜怡行政院食品安全辦公室主任徐甫司法院少年及家事庭副庭長黃紀瑜保護部參事汪南君 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
2279.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
2293.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
內政部警政署刑事警察局警政監蔡坤毅財政部國庫署財務規劃組組長黃曉威勞動部勞動力發展署生特組科長黃靜怡環境部化學物質管理署組長林松景農業部農糧署副署長黃昭興 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
2316.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
2345.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
國家發展委員會社會發展處專務委員蘇艾娟行政院主席總處公務預算處專務委員王千凱行政院消費者保護處副處長陳興宏台中市南區信義國小教師會常務理事唐義國先生新北市清水高級中學家長代表楊先生 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
2348.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
2366.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
謝謝楊爸爸 謝謝其餘列席的機關代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄現在進行提案說明請問有委員要提案說明嗎是不是請羅志祥委員擔任召委 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
2381.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
2383 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
請羅廷偉委員提案說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
2388.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
2402.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案今天我們提案說明的很簡單主題的這個法案就是希望我們的訴求將國家的教育上面的投資基本門檻應該要繼續往上拉一點點從23%調到24%這一趴就是要讓弱勢不要被 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
2413.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
2440.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
缺乎到他們的權益甚至我們也不要偏鄉的學校被放生我們更希望老師有最低限度的專業發展空間不再年年被預算的邊緣化依教育部自己估算提高這一趴大概每年增加400億的支出行政院最近幾年編列的特別條例非常的多為什麼唯獨輪到教育這400億 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
2441.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
2461.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
就馬上說無力負擔說穿了政府不是缺錢就是現階段看到他的優先順序裡教育被放在最後但是部長也要講給行政院院長卓榮泰聽憲法徵修條文第10條也有規定教育科學文化資金費 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
2463.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
2477.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
是國民教育經費為最優先的編列考量在現在的局勢我們更希望少子化能夠讓孩子都能夠更關鍵的獲得資源產業的轉型AI的浪潮又把 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
2478.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
2505.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
技能門檻一直往上推所以我們還用過去那種能撐就好的教育思維來投資教育的話就是把國家的競爭力放任原地踏步就是放任競爭力往下啦台灣怎麼對待教育世界就怎麼看待台灣的評價台灣的未來所以預算可以省教育不能省孩子的未來不能夠打折這是我今天提案說明以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
2518.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
2526.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
好 提案說明完畢接著我們有請本次會議採一併報告綜合詢答現在進行報告有請鄭義耀部長報告時間8分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
2541.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
2549.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家早今天邀列席貴委員會就校園食品安全把關機制及致癌郵件 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
2551.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
2573.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
因應作為等五項進行專題報告敬請各位委員引以指正以立各項重要教育政策以法治之規劃以執行得以日益精進首先針對校園食品把關及學生管理政策分別說明如下一有關校園食品安全把關機制及自然由事件因應作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
2574.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
2602.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
食品安全攸關學生健康與校園安全是本部推動校園午餐政策的重要工作本部除配合食品安全衛生主管機關辦理食安事件應變外平時及透過法規企業管理資訊公開跨部會合作及三級管理機制確保進入校園的食品符合安全規範以確保學生飲食安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
2603.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
2623.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
近期衛福部食品食安署公布一涉致癌物污染油品事件本部於第一時間依校園食品事件處理作業標準啟動應變機制透過校園食材登錄平台快速比對校園使用情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
2624.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
2640.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
並督導地方政府及學校立即清查預防性下降及持續追蹤全力降低食品安全風險維護學生健康二有關學生出缺勤管理及校園秩序維護政策亂象檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
2642.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
2658.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
以改善措施依國民小學及國民中學學生獎程準則第12條規定學生單純初期初切習狀況不得加以懲處且依國民小學及國民 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
2659.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
2686.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
中学学生学习评量办法学生出缺勤情形愿意纳入学习评量计算缺旷课情形严重将影响毕业资格再以惩处将导致重物处分基于学生缺席旷课因素复杂多元学校应依学生行为样态采取适当辅导以管教措施本部支持教师合理管教 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
2687.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
2715.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
未來將持續強化專業分工協助管教措施也已決定增列經費補助學校辦理高關懷課程提供輔導管教資源後續將收集教育現場實務意見優化精進管教措施其次在相關重要法案審查以精進策略方面本部將參與大會建議積極推進各項工作說明如下一 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
2716.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
2738.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
推動校務校事會議兩法修正高級中等以下學校教師解聘、不續聘、停聘或支遣辦法部分條文及公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法第五條、第六條之一條文案新制實施約半年 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
2740.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
2756.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
2015年5月31日止 全級案件313案其中進入校事會議調查70案 佔22%修法前期間1月4年1月至5月 全級案件586案進入校事會議調查484案 佔82%分流為考核案件136案 佔43% |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
2766.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
2787.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
不受理案件比例由原來18%提高至35%透過受理判斷與案件分流機制進入校事會調查案件明顯降低顯示制度已逐步發揮分流效果本部同步推動眷情法律協助支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
2789.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
2811.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
強化家庭教育維護合理管教權完善校園職業安全機制等四大支持配套透過建立教師諮商與法律支持體系強化家庭教育及親師合作保障教師合理管教權益並完善校園職業安全保障機制兼顧學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
2812.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
2825.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
受教权与教师工作权全力营造友善安心且支持性的教育环境二有关教育经费编列与管理法部分条文修正草案 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
2826.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
2851.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
大院審議國民黨黨團委員林德福等提案版本共事務案其中教育經費編列與管理法修正草案第三條第三條之二第十條第十三條包括調高各級政府教育經費預算和技資下限比例明定中央教育經費應分攤數額固定比例增列水電費及國產可塑鹽食材 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
2852.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
2864.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
不進入各級政府教育經會下限額度強化教育經會籌編責任及設立中央教育發展基金等修正建議各項詳細內容請參閱書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
2867.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
2895.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
大院近年多次修法調高教育經費預算法定下限至全國公部門教育經費逐年穩定增加有助於持續提升我國教育品質本部競表卸陳為財化法修法後大幅削減中央可應用制裁員他明定基準以匡列中央應分攤制教育經費中央財政恐造成排擠效應影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
2896.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
2915.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
各部會政策之推動教育經費之編列本應在落實財政穩健以公平分配的前提下使能促進教育資源的永續健全發展源仁於就政府整體資源配置及各地方政府財政狀況予以考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
2916.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
2945.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
日後本部將持續就建立中央與地方教育經會銜接機制落實教育經會之編列強化監督及考核機制確保教育經會合理分攤等事項努力精進敬請各委員及各界先進持續給予本部支持與指教三 凝聚國民轉介教育條例草案本部針對葉英之委員等19人凝聚國民轉介教育條例草案申表謝存 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
2946.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
2962.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
少年事件處理法108年修正後落實兒童權利公約CRC強調行政先行及去標籤化由教育、司法、社政系統分工合作並以少年偏差行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
2964.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
2979.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
議訪及輔導辦法由學校主動提供輔導召開評估會議及訂定個別化輔導計畫本部於學生輔導法督導各級學校建置三級輔導制度針對偏差行為重大違規 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
2980.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
3008.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
及适应困难学生结合学生辅导职商中心社政等跨专业资源提供协助并透过高关怀课程多元化中介教育措施及稳定就学措施协助学生持续就学2013年修订学生辅导法后持续扩增专任辅导老师专业辅导人员编制及辅助学务人员强化校园辅导量能 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
3009.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
3034.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
最後感謝各位委員關注校園食品安全學生輔導管教不適任教師處理以及各項教育法制建制本部將持續攜手各地方政府與相關團體審慎評估各方意見落實推動各項政策提供符合教師家長及學生需求之優質教育環境以上謝謝各位委員敬請指正謝謝好謝謝部長的報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
3038.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
3040.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
請衛生福利部林靜儀次長報告報告時間5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
3050.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
3068.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
主席各位委員女士先生今天大院第十一屆第五會期教育及文化委員會召開第十九次全體委員會議本部呈要列席教校園食品安全把關機制及致癌優勢建議作為提出報告敬請委員指教大豆油 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
3068.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
3092.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
本田皮超标事件处理情形10号属于2026年6月30日接获中联油指通报其生产之大豆沙拉油自主检验发现本田皮8.1ppb超过法定限量2.0ppb该批油品约1300公吨供应泰山福寿及福茂等业者使用后续7月7号泰山 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
3093.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
3119.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
自主检验调和油产品亦发现本品皮超标经追查后确认原料来源亦来自中联公司本部6月30接获通报后立刻启动跨机关应变机制要求中联公司停止出货追查产品流向并且办理预防性下架回收及扩大抽验并以风险评估滚动调整管制措施防止可能受影响的产品持续流通 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
3120.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
3145.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
事件处理期间食药署陆续召开专家学者食品业者及地方卫生局会议检视会议检视事件可能之原因并要求业者加强产品查验产品检验原料管理及制成管控并研议受影响产品下架回收范围同时要求业者提供产品流向及退货资讯以强化风险管理及掌握事件处理进度 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
3147.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
3171.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
10號屬於啟動擴大抽驗,針對相關使用油脂業者及場內產品加速檢驗以確認產品安全性,並持續透過新聞稿、記者會及官網公布事件處理進度及產品流向下架回收及抽驗結果,並於官網設置專區更新相關資訊提供民眾查詢,確保資訊流通透明 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
3171.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
3194.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
在校园食品安全方面食药署每日公布受影响产品及流向资讯供教育部运用校园食材登录平台比对校园公餐资料掌握疑似食用情形并督导地方政府及学校幼儿园全面清查若有疑虑即停止使用并预防性下架共同把关学生饮食安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
3195.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
3213.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
协调下游厂商重宽重优重速重减办理退货机制并协助消保团体进行团体诉讼相关诉讼费用得由食品安全保护基金支应以保障消费者权益本案依食安法等规定依法采取相关业者 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
3214.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
3238.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
目前本部采取中联公司1亿6520万元地方政府采取福茂福寿300万元福茂300万元泰山600万元及南桥300万元同时已请司法机关侦办有检调食药署及地方政府共同调查厘清事件原因及责任归属如查有违法形式将依法就办 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
3239.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
3268.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
2.精进作为本部将以本案为鉴持续精进食品安全管理制度1.完善自主通报机制明确通报时机与流程强化异常事件及时通报及处置2.提升检验频率及项目针对高风险原料及产品加强自主检验强化品质管理3.强化HACCP管理落实食品安全管制系统强化关键管制及风险管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
3269.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
3292.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
4.提高茶盒及抽验强度加强高风险业者积茶抽验落实源头管理及市场监测5.精进产品下架回收机制检讨106年食品安全资议会定定之食品违规案件产品下架回收封存销毁阶层之处理原则以提升食品安全应变的效率 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
3293.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
3319.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
结语本部秉持资讯透明风险管控依法行政的原则迅速完成产品追查预防性下架扩大抽验及依法究责等工作未来本部将持续精进食品安全管理制度完善食品安全事件通报机制强化业者自主检验监测落实食用油脂HACCP管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
3320.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
3348.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
加强政府茶盐、茶盒抽验及精进下架回收机制,全面提升食品安全管理效能与政府监督量能,防范食品安全风险,守护国人健康。本部城大院各委员之指教及监督在此尽致谢诚,并其各位委员继续予以支持。谢谢。好,谢谢林次长的报告。现在有请行政院食品安全办公室徐副主任报告。 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
3351.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
3376.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
時間4分鐘主席各位委員女士先生今天貴院教育及文化委員會邀請就校園食品安全把關機制及致癌油事件因應作為提出報告敬請各位委員不吝指教依校園食品把關針對中聯公司供應部分大豆沙拉油檢出 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
3378.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
3406.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
本田比不符合規定一案食安辦在事件發生後立即督導衛福部啟動應變機制協調掌握經濟部教育部國防部法務部等相關機關辦理那大概處理分成三階段第一個階段大概在7月3日衛福部公布下架名單的時候食安辦及主動聯繫教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
3407.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
3416.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
國教署請運用校園資材登錄平台以掌握校園疑似使用受影響產品情形 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
3420.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
3445.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
這個辦理足效的確認督導學校幼兒園及團善業者全面盤頂有品及相關製品使用情形並立即下架問題有品那第二個階段是在大概7月5號到7月6號那這個開始公佈受影響及下游的流向之後同樣請這個國教署各個 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
3446.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
3475.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
县市完成第一波的校园的清查确认受影响的县市以及校数截至目前这个疑似使用受影响产品范围有20个县市623所学校以及258所幼儿园都已经立即停职使用采取预防性的下架措施确保学生安全第三个阶段是在上礼拜四7月 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
3477.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
3485.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
9號擴大這個預防性下架所實施的這個方式跟前面相同持續聯繫確認 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
3488.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
3508.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
二最新辦理情形那個食安辦大概在7月7號的時候就跟高檢署協同召開有品致來物超標事件查辦暨食品安全專案會議啟動民生犯罪聯繫平台建立中央與地方行政與檢調之間的聯繫 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
3511.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
3539.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
機制那在7月7號8號9號在這個陳時中政委召開相關的跨部會的這些聯繫事宜工作包含有跟這個豆粕飼料穩定替代方案飼料跟動物安全有品跟這個市售供應量評估工廠業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
3542.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
3563.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
補導還有可能涉及的這個精進措施校園的食安處理不法行為調查還有這個消費者提起團體訴訟還有這個持有品消費者下游通路退換後的事宜本件是因應錯為大概有幾項第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
3564.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
3587.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
後續依照檢驗結果擴大預防性下降第二中央地方合作協助消費者團體訴訟第三協請廠商從寬認定從速辦理消費者退貨第四徹查問題原因停工沒有期限第五啟動啟動食安法的修法杜絕不肖業者四結與食安辦持續協調督導衛福部農業部經濟部教育部等各權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
3592.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
3619.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
機關推動食品安全管理確保食品供應鏈的每一個環節均符合衛生安全標準食安資訊更透明讓國人食人安心以上好謝謝徐主任報告謝謝我們現在先來處理一絲路上次會一絲路有無錯誤跟遺漏好沒有一絲路確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
3622.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
3626.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
其余提出素面报告机关代表除素面外有无口头补充报告 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
3628.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
3655.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
機關代表報告完畢相關書面資料請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在進行詢答每位出席的委員質詢十分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘列席的委員質詢的時間是五分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午十點半發言委員如有臨時提案請於四點半之前提出我們與法案審查完畢以後再行處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].start |
3657.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].end |
3667.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[94].text |
處理提案時若提案的委員均連署的委員都不在場的話我們趙婉莉是不夠不處理那首先先請登記第一位羅志祥委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].start |
3687.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].end |
3711.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[95].text |
有請鎮醫藥部長跟林靜儀次長有請部長有請次長委員長我想先請教次長這個食用油品出現一級致癌物粉填皮嚴重超標嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].start |
3712.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].end |
3736.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[96].text |
那變成食安風暴我看到連執政黨的立委都痛批衛福部食藥署說要追究行政疏失然後認為你們的危機處理慢半拍我想請教針對執政黨立委這樣的一個質疑我想請問我們的次長你覺得衛福部有行政疏失嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].start |
3738.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].end |
3752.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[97].text |
謝謝委員給我們這個時間說明因為我們是6月30收到中聯通知他們拋錶7月1號進行處理那制度上面你必須要把報告念到我們還是要說清楚報告我看完啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].start |
3754.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].end |
3765.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[98].text |
因為我們6月30接到但是我還是要但是我們剛剛委員我們報告剛剛提到的後續如何在廠商這邊我們後續在廠商這邊他們什麼時候的通報程序這邊的精進這個部分一定要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].start |
3775.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].end |
3804.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[99].text |
連你們執政黨立委都看不下我這幫劉建國抱屈啊來時間暫停請官員針對委員質詢的問題直接回答麥克風檢查一下有沒有問題聲音怪怪的請繼續我再重述問你一次劉建國說要徹查行政疏失你認為你有行政疏失嗎我們會尊重委員這邊的徹查徹查所以你到現在認為沒有嘛委員你們要查我們就尊重委員的查我告訴你很簡單啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].start |
3805.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].end |
3834.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[100].text |
整篇的報告裡面也完全沒有在追究在檢討你們自己衛福部的責任我看過了我們六月三十接到中聯通現在我們要檢討是廠商發現問題之後不要再跟我繼續倒帶了我要繼續問問題來你部長致歉了沒有道歉了沒有我們對於這件事情我們當然致歉因為他影響了廠商沒有行政書師需要道歉嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].start |
3836.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].end |
3855.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[101].text |
來 我告訴你 連部長本身都有檢討誠意 公開道歉你在這邊 你到底在凹什麼民眾期待政府就是一個嚴格的把關我們來看看 我要問你 請教你請問現在有問題的油品總量到底是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].start |
3858.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].end |
3877.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[102].text |
現在我們在中聯這邊我們接獲的以及後續在7月12號我們又接到一批他們的通知所以目前檢驗從4月份到6月份中聯這邊檢驗到有問題的有5批郵品但是我們4月到6月5批但是我們4月到6月份現在全部預防性下架多少量 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].start |
3883.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].end |
3888.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[103].text |
預防性下架總共2000我要請媒體朋友跟所有的台灣民眾看看這就是衛福部次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].start |
3896.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].end |
3912.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[104].text |
我們請曾志就曾志可以讓我唸現在我問你多少量你繼續把報告再唸一遍我現在要唸的現在我們預防性下架的包含預防性下架的所有跟中聯有關的總共是27,532.7公噸非常謝謝您啊關一個27,000噸我就要問個兩分鐘沒關係啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].start |
3925.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].end |
3926.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[105].text |
你要拖時間後面還有別的立委從 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].start |
3931.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].end |
3941.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[106].text |
衛福部7月對外宣布到現在兩週從1300噸變成2600噸現在變成你口中的27000噸還會更多目前在中聯我們是4到6月你認為有問題你預防性下降就認為可能有問題嘛好像很了不起啊好像很了不起啊來請問還會更多還有沒有更多 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].start |
3955.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].end |
3983.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[107].text |
目前我們的檢驗到現在沒有更多就是這些都預防性下架了這個數字從一千三暴增到兩千六千變成可能預防性下架兩萬七千噸我告訴你啊全國民眾看著食藥署這種慢半拍荒腔走板的執行越查越多越查越離譜來再來我想請教業者部分當然進入司法調查我知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].start |
3984.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].end |
3996.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[108].text |
我繼續問行政責任行政院衛福部跟食藥署有受到任何處分嗎有任何行政調查追溯政治責任管理責任跟決策責任嗎有沒有目前為止有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].start |
3998.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].end |
4018.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[109].text |
你是問行政院還是問行政院上級長官啊如果有行政疏失他要啟動啊我們現在程序都跟長官這邊進行報告今天早上的行政院的會議還在跟長官報告有沒有嘛行政院開始啟動行政調查了有沒有針對你們行政疏失我們開始啟動行政調查這個委員你問我不知道你不知道來 衛福部有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].start |
4020.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].end |
4045.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[110].text |
衛福部目前我們正在我們目前正在全力的把這個目前的食安狀況處理好讓民眾可以安心游遊所以嘛 也沒進行行政疏失的調查嗎沒有嘛 現在對於這些油廠我們進行的是司法上面的處理我告訴你 我不要講別的啦我幫劉建國抱屈啦講那也是白講講那也是白講到目前為止結論很簡單又清楚又明白嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].start |
4046.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].end |
4064.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[111].text |
你們並沒有負責任的意思啊中央政府顯然認為即便衛福部是死安法主管機關就算現在民怨沸騰又如何你奈我何啊只要今天回答的態度像跟次長你的回答態度一樣報告唸一唸就結束了事啊所以除了預防性下架之外在它能符合標準我們就不讓它繼續生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].start |
4077.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].end |
4103.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[112].text |
你這報告連那2.7萬多你都不敢寫進去一定要問了半天來我要告訴你中央的責任跟疏失在哪裡我要告訴你4月業者自主查出問題之後至少盡力4次業者查驗超標到6月底中央才知道你們結果是7月1號只要求問題的原油跟分裝品下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].start |
4104.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].end |
4122.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[113].text |
第二層產品是不處理的數百個家下游名單不公開這是你們第一時間的危機處理啦我以為那是依照106年的食品的這個下游來來來所以剛剛報告的這個我會進行這個報告會進行很好來我只告訴你事實發生如何民眾去公平嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].start |
4123.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].end |
4148.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[114].text |
7月4號開始轉彎擴大下架然後就端出一個油製品成分超過20%者需下架的標準到7月7號再度大轉彎全數預防性下架我說光看你們今天通報後的決策數天數變完全看著輿論風向走嘛先拖到什麼程度擠牙膏擠到什麼程度我們就下架到哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].start |
4153.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].end |
4166.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[115].text |
我想要請問 食安等不等同國安啊各式各樣的都是國安是嘛等同人民的生命安全啊當然是國家的大問題啊結果你們用這種方式來去做滿不滿意不用我來講讓你們執政黨立委自己講讓今天全國民眾來講來 接下來我來請教一下我們部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].start |
4184.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].end |
4191.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[116].text |
目前掌握的數字獨游流進學校數量是多少我們因應措施有完備嗎跟委員報告我們確實在7月1號 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].start |
4194.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].end |
4215.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[117].text |
收到這樣一個訊息馬上這一個國教署就從我們的平台上第一天馬上就收集到有1380所學校是有用到中聯這三家的一個油品大概量是多少然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].start |
4216.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].end |
4236.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[118].text |
我們就請各地方縣市政府開始教育局處去查那麼查的時候第一批在7月7號的時候我們大概發現到有這一個五個縣市有228個學校是有使用全部下架在這第一波然後第二波到7月7號又公布第二波的時候我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].start |
4237.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].end |
4266.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[119].text |
這個7月9號再公布了7月7號是232的這個品項7月9號440個品項我們根據這個馬上有20個縣市謝謝部長我要告訴你起碼次長看一看至少願意回答問題但是我要拜託今天部長還有後面的次長你就知道今天食安問題有多大 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].start |
4267.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].end |
4290.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[120].text |
上千所學校也受牽連教育部不是食安法主管機關但是有責任為今天食藥署衛福部把關不嚴今天已經串到校園來部長 你能不能擔保今天我們學校的校園學生的食安不會受這個食油的安全問題所波及影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].start |
4291.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].end |
4301.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[121].text |
跟委員報告我們建立這個平台確實每一天的一個食材都透明公開而且要上網繼續努力啦謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員部長我想請教你下一個問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].start |
4303.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].end |
4331.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[122].text |
這回有到教文委員會我其實一直在做我們選區的學校的實際的訪談跟所謂的那個請益那過去我跟部長也反映過教師荒的問題那也有很多的校長跟我反映有行政大逃亡的問題就是說行政業務越來越多 排擠教學心理也讓很多的老師不敢踏入教職甚至許多學校連主任職都找不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].start |
4332.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].end |
4356.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[123].text |
那我知道教育部有提出一些支持增補行政能力的計畫包括國中有增製學務能力嘛其他成績也有類似那我肯定教育部的態度啦但是我這邊有一個建議我希望政府有意願來幫助但應該要真正落實政策的美意我遇到有些國中校長有這樣建議啦他說國中美校是增製一位能力 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].start |
4357.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].end |
4378.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[124].text |
但實際上教育現場的行政能力還是非常缺而且因為每個學校的學生人數事情繁雜度不一全部所有學校都是以一個人來去編配那對於人就是學生數校園規模比較大的學校他們就人力緊缺的問題比較嚴重所以他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].start |
4380.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].end |
4407.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[125].text |
認為說可不可以調整以學生人數為基準讓學生數越多的學校可以有越多的人力比方說在學校的護理師也是用學生人數來評估的那我的建議也就是校長們的建議說綜合學校空間標準跟教育現場的建議是否可以調整以實體班為計算標準36班含以下的補一人37班以上就可以有兩人 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].start |
4408.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].end |
4415.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[126].text |
我不知道部長可不可以幫忙我們這些學校的教育現場的人力不足給這樣的一個後盾跟幫助 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].start |
4417.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].end |
4440.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[127].text |
謝謝委員關心這個教育品質包括減少我們老師的一個行政壓力我想確實現在的挑戰是比較大也跟委員報告去年我們會協務人力會增加是沒有我進來以後在年度的預算並沒有變略這個我們內部調整但是委員的建議我先謝謝你啦我先謝謝你就是說增加一個有幫助說明說委員的建議我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].start |
4443.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].end |
4468.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[128].text |
也會考慮在未來我們希望在年度的預算能夠編進去然後能夠用班級考量它的一個規模初步我們因為沒有預算我們沒關係算是內部應試起來也聽到也看到了這個地方的一個聲音我先謝謝部長那這個意見麻煩我們教育部再去研議一下我覺得校長提的意見很有道理就是看學校規模來去設計能力的編排 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].start |
4470.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].end |
4485.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[129].text |
那另外也是幫我們學生來請願政府一直在宣傳高中職跟五專前三年全面免納學費這也是德政那減輕了很多青年學子跟家長的負擔那這一點我是給您肯定但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].start |
4486.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].end |
4504.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[130].text |
事實上同樣國中畢業去就讀私立的學校私立高中職跟私立武專平均的補助金額還是有非常大的差別我舉個例子我這邊拿到資料103年以來私立高中職最高每升每學期補助金額從103年的22,800元調整到114年的26,000元 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].start |
4512.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].end |
4524.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[131].text |
261,162元已經調漲了4次那學費因為師資人士變動學費更的提高可是五專每升每學期補助金額我們可以看到教育部拿到的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].start |
4526.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].end |
4535.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[132].text |
103年平均每升是用一整學年而不是一個學期103年平均每升每學年補助金額是19643元到114年變成19219元還縮水 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].start |
4543.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].end |
4566.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[133].text |
那五專是培育我們國家專業的人才那未來學生有專業技能也可以補上很多專業產業的缺口因為這邊時間有限啦我把這問題拋出來我希望教育部能夠給我一個報告說這個部分你們覺得是不是能夠來幫助我們今天那個學生們來去在補助上變得是更公平然後讓他們同樣能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].start |
4568.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].end |
4580.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[134].text |
接受到國家的德政讓年輕人在這個求學的階段可以得到更多的幫助謝謝委員提醒我想我們可以來研議因為高職的部分技高的部分他確實會因為內科補助的這個協會會有不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].start |
4584.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].end |
4608.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[135].text |
那這個五專這個部分我們看怎麼樣來縮短剛才委員所提的我們以實際性來研議然後希望來真正落實我們本來這個免學會的政策能夠照顧到我們學生最後我先謝謝部長反正這兩個部分都是我想請部裡面給我一個報告讓我們一起來研商最後我是給部長一個小小的建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].start |
4611.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].end |
4635.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[136].text |
6月29號我們在審校士會議的時候我想部長應該知道尤其在鐵拳教育這部片引起很多人關心教育現場問題的時候校士會議的改進跟檢討已經變成全國教師認為的重中之重我先不去細究今天你講的所謂的請病假的過程我光講一件事情我希望部長以後你還是要把它放在心上 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].start |
4636.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].end |
4656.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[137].text |
在老師們覺得這麼重要的校師會議的改革的議程上立法院排了他已經不是尊重立法院的問題而已他也包括今天全國老師心心念念希望部長能夠在這個教育改革的現場立法院的現場能夠來展現出今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].start |
4657.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].end |
4685.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[138].text |
幫助老師來去解決教育現場困境的一個態度但是我覺得真的很遺憾你那天選擇的是去彰化陪候選人去視察當然你認為視察也重要啦可是這兩件事情的輕重緩急我覺得這是部長第一個要給你提醒的那第二個就是當然我也要必須說啦因為6月18號下午你請假的時候那時候是站在羅廷維召委旁邊你那時候確實身體不舒服吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].start |
4686.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].end |
4713.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[139].text |
18號謝謝委員喔我也利用這個機會澄清一下沒有我知道你又講你請假是18號不是29號好沒關係可是我要這邊跟你部長你講兩件事嘛第一個就是在當時6月18號我在羅廷偉旁邊聽到你身體不適我們還請你多保重對不對所以我心存感激其實那一天中午我要離開有有有有這一個召委跟您都有送我到門口部長部長先等我講完了齁我只是要把問題釐清給你建議啦齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].start |
4715.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].end |
4736.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[140].text |
我覺得基本上羅昭偉那時候也是一個體恤不長身體的狀況但是那時候確實在旁邊我的感覺是你只要身體的狀況沒改變的話基本上你會在這種狀況之下你不會來立法院嘛所以羅昭偉跟我們認知到你身體不舒服不來立法院可是今天將心比心當立法院審查校事會議的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].start |
4738.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].end |
4759.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[141].text |
我們停留在你6月18號身體不舒服所以你沒有來當然認為是身體不舒服沒來嘛結果你到了彰化去陪著這個縣長的參選人來去考察那這個東西基本上我覺得外界有誤以部長我覺得你還是可以把它放在心上但是真正重要重點我還是提醒部長那天是審查校師會議啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].start |
4760.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].end |
4780.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[142].text |
大家都那麼關心這件事情就不打這個輕重緩急你的選擇感謝委員的提醒但是我也必須要澄清當時我們事實上也跟召委請假然後事實上也不是用病假然後我也要跟委員報告我到地方去如果委員有觀察到我特別會到偏鄉原來的農業縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].start |
4784.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].end |
4802.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[143].text |
最後時間到了我就給你一個簡單的建議不要偏不信底下不爭官啦今天基本上謝依鳳委員也是我辦公室特別通知謝委員說我會到彰化去看地方的一切我要利用這個機會跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].start |
4804.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].end |
4828.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[144].text |
我只要到地方一定會跟地方縣市的教育部級處長做我還是跟你講最後我是給你一個建議啦輕重環節還是要分啦我相信到地方考察的時間是很彈性的有各種時間可以安排但校事會議的那個審查就那一天啦所有老師睜大眼睛在看就是那一天身為教育部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].start |
4829.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].end |
4851.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[145].text |
大家在看說希望教育部長在那個會議當中展現出當老師後盾的態度這一點給部長參考我也要跟委員報告感謝委員的一個關心確實我們這兩年來我進來教育部這兩年來沒有寒暑假我們原來過去我一直以為我寒暑假可以去看學校希望這個教學軟硬體能夠去改變但是我們到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].start |
4853.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].end |
4863.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[146].text |
我們現在立法院我們在做不然是法案審查選民服務也沒什麼寒暑假啦所以這個我覺得尊重你的感受我的建議就這麼簡單 以上謝謝委員提醒 謝謝謝謝羅志強委員然後謝謝部長 部長請回 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].start |
4881.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].end |
4905.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[147].text |
現在請羅廷偉召委質詢好謝謝主席有請教育部部長衛福部林靜儀政次還有思安辦主任請教育部長林靜儀政次還有思安辦主任委員好部長好政次好 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].start |
4906.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].end |
4935.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[148].text |
主任好,我先請教一下衛福部啦,強請問一下政治,像行政院召開行政院院會啊,跟縣市各個開會的時候,你會在嗎?不一定,部長通常是部長出席。好,9日時部長說行政院會呢,台中副市長問,什麼時候這些油品可以上架?那媒體就去詢問啦,黃副市長,你有說過嗎?黃副市長說啊,我只有建議更嚴格的風險管控,還有源頭的處理,全面下架。 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].start |
4936.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].end |
4954.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[149].text |
那我們再看到衛福部在會後竟然補充說明說台中市沒有說何時上架只有說全面下架的問題大街來抹黑小巷來澄清那我想部長有沒有跟你說這個部分沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].start |
4954.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].end |
4982.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[150].text |
我想麻煩你幫忙轉達一下請部長在所有的事實陳述的時候還是要特別注意那不要有任何的抹黑狀況因為我想現階段到底什麼是真什麼是假我們更注重在官員在質詢的過程甚至是在被詢的時候的一些解說還有記者會所提供的一些內容參據都會讓我們民眾能夠更了解現況我們看到12日呢石部長他在指出啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].start |
4982.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].end |
5005.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[151].text |
下游的油品和上游的原油檢驗存在落差同樣的事情不只一樁但是因此啊衛福部懷疑到中聯油脂的檢體造假第一時間才不公佈所以才會擴大到4到6月的產品全數預防性下降在對應11日我們看到台中地院裁定中聯油總經理 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].start |
5007.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].end |
5019.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[152].text |
認罪交保的理由是行使業務上登載不實的文書罪顯然本案已經進入到偵審的一個階段我就尚未公開的資訊不做任何的質詢待願檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].start |
5022.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].end |
5041.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[153].text |
調以及貴部來做調查偵查告一段落以後我們也希望政府應該向國人來說明那我想徐主任我們在這邊也要應該感謝檢調在第一時間跟衛福部來配合才能挖掘最底層我們現在才知道的一些黑暗資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].start |
5041.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].end |
5067.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[154].text |
就如同食藥署在前身食藥局的時候99年到100年跟我們的調查局一起合作才能夠破獲肅起食品摻雜威爾岡的偽藥案件這也是當時食藥辦成立的一個目的作為跨部會的協調工作但是我們現在來看到幾個報刊雜誌食藥署食品組 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].start |
5069.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].end |
5083.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[155].text |
主長許超凱指出這類食用油所製的黃豆業者都是採河川採購考量黃豆季節性以及業者會同時採購美國巴西 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].start |
5086.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].end |
5113.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[156].text |
以及目前國內多數的煉油廠製成原料驗收都是從粗榨的毛油來做檢驗以及後續的脫色、脫臭過程均做得比中煉油脂還要好可以研判將這個一律的致癌物它的標準下降至限量的一個標準下我們又看到9日江志剛又說台糖5、6月向福茂 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].start |
5114.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].end |
5138.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[157].text |
購入了中聯油脂出炸的油品至自家的出炸油品來混合精煉所以製成了台塘大豆沙拉油以及烤酥油兩品項我們看到台塘現在也有預防性的一個下架作為但11日我們又看到石崇良表示10月8日以後石耀署至我們三家煉油廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].start |
5139.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].end |
5145.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[158].text |
大同益 台糖 常輝實業進行駐場我想問一下喔林次 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].start |
5148.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].end |
5175.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[159].text |
10月8日食藥署前往7月8日我們至三家煉油廠大同義台糖常輝是否由於減掉來做配合偵查現階段還有沒有跟他們其他時段共同使用黃豆原料與中聯油是使用同一批傳的 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].start |
5177.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].end |
5191.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[160].text |
其他沒有都完全沒有目前這兩批就是目前的話我們在預防性下架這個部分就是跟中聯有關的這兩批該抽驗30件的檢體化驗的報告出爐了嗎是不是應該及時公告 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].start |
5192.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].end |
5219.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[161].text |
沒有全部出來那目前已經出來的15件包含大統議常徽這邊還沒好我們希望報告出爐要及時公佈我們跟委員報告我們這邊因為持續都在驗所以我們有新的報告我們都會再公佈我想自來獨有持藥署第一時間定義戰犯是巴西進口含水率過高的黃豆然後安排學者說是巴西黃豆在原產地採收了後 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].start |
5220.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].end |
5247.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[162].text |
乾燥蒸熏的過程恐出現熱損傷而產生了BAP的一個問題然而從今年1到5月台灣從巴西進口的黃豆量總量達到了59.9萬噸該批大豆除了供應中聯油脂還有可能三家的其他煉油廠大同義台糖常會失業是否有少量供應其他 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].start |
5248.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].end |
5267.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[163].text |
做醬油、豆漿、豆類製品的工廠畢竟沙拉油在煉製過程BAP的含量下降80%以上但其他豆類製品直接粉碎加工使用我們都很想知道市長有沒有其他的漏網之魚醬油、豆乾 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].start |
5268.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].end |
5296.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[164].text |
類製品這個是製程不同啊那剛剛提到我知道 但是同一批去使用的話我們都會擔憂嘛對 跟我們報告其實因為它的黃豆是因為它的這個剛剛講的它可能水分等等的問題所以它在製油的過程中我們還有另外一個剛剛提到HACCP要處理就是油廠它在製造的時候因為它的來源可能水分不同的關係它要有它的這個我們講HACCP好的品管每個節點要去做品管我知道 剛剛多人會擔心嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].start |
5297.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].end |
5312.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[165].text |
您提到的是黃豆來源的製品對不對所以我要提醒嘛就是說現在國人會擔憂同一批的黃豆如果有問題它做成醬油或者是加工類的製品我知道製程不同 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].start |
5314.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].end |
5337.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[166].text |
但是我們還是鼓勵衛福部食藥署應該去抽查檢驗嘛去了解雖然製程不同但同一批的黃豆會不會有相關的製程食品來讓國人吃下肚有問題我覺得這樣好不好跟這些黃豆同一批黃豆他用同樣跟這個油一樣製程的我們全面來做一個跟您做一個報告這樣好不好所以你可以同意去做檢驗嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].start |
5338.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].end |
5355.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[167].text |
我們確認一下是不是同一批黃豆因為通常黃豆來源不一樣我是具體的建議同一批黃豆有不同的製品醬油都應該去檢驗看看擴大去檢驗我了解你說的製程不同它所造成的問題可能不盡相同但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].start |
5356.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].end |
5381.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[168].text |
擴大檢驗避免食安嘛那就是您所說的就是跟這一批黃豆有關的我們全面清查一下我想巴西黃豆有問題啦那美國黃豆是否也有問題我們也應該同樣的去了解一下倘若不是巴西黃豆的問題那我想對於貿易果斷的臆測是否對貿易夥伴有不盡之處還是要謹慎處理這個部分我只是提醒而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].start |
5382.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].end |
5402.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[169].text |
美國黃豆我們也是希望最高的品質就是全面稽查不要有掛一漏萬這個委員我們要再強調一下就是我們其實現在辦專家為什麼我們讓那個中聯我們還沒有讓他能夠復工就是我們對於他在製造過程應該要做品管的節點他還沒有辦法說服我們他有好的品管 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].start |
5403.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].end |
5423.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[170].text |
好,這個部分麻煩我提醒一下那現在我們看到有教授在指出說BAP超標的案例其實非常罕見一般從油脂精煉的角度來看即便是毛油BAP的含量偏高脫膠、脫酸、脫澀、脫臭完整的精煉程序以後理論上是可以把濃度下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].start |
5424.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].end |
5440.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[171].text |
又說黃豆原料精萃取精煉就能把不是山酸甘油脂的部分拿掉而BAP就是不是山酸甘油脂它就是這個部分的成分理論上可以程序降低我要請問一下徐主任現在大豆自由出問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].start |
5442.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].end |
5454.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[172].text |
那大豆粕呢大豆粕跑去哪了有沒有製成飼料有沒有追蹤銷賣收回這個全世界對於飼料的BAP的管理都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].start |
5456.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].end |
5473.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[173].text |
訂定這個標準所以現在會認為進入飼料供應鏈動物的飼養經濟動物上面是沒有問題的全世界沒有規範但是我現在提出一個問題我也請國人聽聽看是有問題的可能性這個BAP做成飼料 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].start |
5474.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].end |
5501.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[174].text |
供這些飼養動物來食用那我們再來吃這些飼養的動物這個部分我們有疑慮嘛所以我認為這個部分依照法規黃豆有問題我們不管後面加工就是不可以用飼料管理法就規定飼料不可以使用變質的原料目前大豆破的流向為何食安辦有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].start |
5502.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].end |
5519.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[175].text |
大豆粕大部分是進入飼料供應鏈那這一批有問題的黃豆所製成的大豆粕現在也是一樣做成飼料那做成飼養動物的時候我們就會懷疑雖然世界沒有定義 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].start |
5520.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].end |
5535.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[176].text |
但是我們會不會有疑慮謝謝委員我補充一下因為這些黃豆它做成油那這個本田皮它是融在油裡所以它在油的過程現在我們製造沙拉油這個過程它被融出來了理論上如果照學理上來講它是不會在豆粕那一邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].start |
5536.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].end |
5550.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[177].text |
好我希望這個是你們的推斷是對的啦但是我還是要再次的提醒大透破同一批黃豆他所製成的是不是有疑慮這個部分你們應該加強一下因為我們現階段對於整個民進黨的食安五環 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].start |
5551.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].end |
5573.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[178].text |
已經徹底破功我們感到非常非常的擔憂我還是要針對這個部分建議衛福部啊針對壟斷性的大宗代工廠進行提高頻率的無預警的製程抽驗來列入不定期的抽查這個部分還要拜託食安辦要完全負責協調統籌跨部會的食品管理作為 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].start |
5574.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].end |
5589.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[179].text |
然後來做這個刑事的偵查配合調查局配合檢調這部分要提醒一下報告委員就是這個地方的抽查我們會跟地方衛生局一起合作因為這個主要抽查是地方衛生局這個我還是要提醒你們要有一個角色第二個我要再問教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].start |
5590.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].end |
5619.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[180].text |
部長問直接的說這起自來毒油進入到校園不是食安的問題是教育主管機關教育部嚴重失職的一個問題事情早在4月就發現但到現在已經擴及20個縣市623所學校258所幼兒園結果教育部第一反應是地方政府第一線落實查核請問中央主管機關的角色根本就是把監管失能全部甩脫交給我們第一線地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].start |
5620.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].end |
5646.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[181].text |
我們是沒有辦法接受的我們現在來講教育部一直在講滾動式盤點若是有疑慮就先下架的預防措施以學生健康為唯一的標準這句話聽起來很好聽啊但我請問我們能夠做的就是這樣嗎以學生健康為唯一標準那請你告訴國人這幾個月教育部做了哪一件事情對得起這句話你該不會要說有疑慮就先下架吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].start |
5647.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].end |
5669.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[182].text |
那我問你,有疑慮就先下架,衛福部說20%含量的可以留在貨架上,你能不能接受?我問你,有疑慮就先下架,衛福部說20%含量的可以留在貨架上,你能不能接受?你先回答我,你能不能接受? |
| transcript.whisperx[183].start |
5670.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].end |
5684.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[183].text |
我們所有的下架規準全部依據食藥署的一個公佈然後二十二個地方縣市教育技術所以你剛剛說有餘地就下架嘛你就是在打點衛福部嘛衛福部說二十趴含量的時候不用下架啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].start |
5685.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].end |
5714.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[184].text |
來教育部我們現在場面化大家這樣子講但是重點的作為呢政府公布了問題產品的名單只是風險揭露第一步真正關鍵是什麼我們現在攝入致癌物質的學生教育部下一步作為要怎麼樣負責你告訴我我想如果有家長有餘力我們會請學校地方建設政府來協助學校把名單不要家長有餘力嘛全國國人一定都有餘力嘛我現在目前家長最關心的不是怎麼退貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].start |
5715.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].end |
5725.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[185].text |
他們不是要那個小錢欸他們現在關心的是孩子的健康風險如何評估嘛那家長要不要協助他們長期追蹤嘛你們有沒有醫療的先進諮商窗口後續照顧我們學生嘛好 待會我讓你說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].start |
5732.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].end |
5746.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[186].text |
所以我今天要提出具體的完整方案跟配套我希望教育部要講清楚說明白請教育部儘速提出健康照護還有制度改革的一個方案讓食安防線不會停留在事件發生後的補救 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].start |
5747.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].end |
5765.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[187].text |
還有所謂我們要建立所謂的預防追溯應變照護四大機制請說明謝謝委員提醒事實上這一定是中央跟地方要一起合作的我們所有的營養午餐每天所有的食材全部公開透明登錄在這個食材上所以當7月1號一公佈食藥主義公佈的時候我們已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].start |
5770.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].end |
5793.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[188].text |
22個地方縣市全部在平台裡面掃貨一次才發現有1380個學校用到中聯所提供的這三家的油品然後接著我們請22個地方縣市教育局處馬上學校裡面根據那個品項逐一的來做下架的一個我想我們教育部在這一個部分跟地方是後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].start |
5795.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].end |
5815.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[189].text |
剛才委員所提我們事實上也在思考如果學生有因為這兩個月的時間覺得身體不適的話家長是不是學校建立一個機制讓怎麼樣來做一個比較一個長期的追求我相信孩子不會現在感受到不是啦我希望你針對623所學校258所幼兒園能夠針對他們來做一個長期的追求我們中央跟地方來合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].start |
5821.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].end |
5836.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[190].text |
這個部分我希望你具體會後提供書面資料你們要怎麼具體的來做這個相關的機制給我我們來跟地方來看怎麼樣來研議有一個更好的一個再來大專院校大專院校我想請問他們雖然不是營養午餐的系統喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].start |
5837.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].end |
5860.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[191].text |
但是我們有沒有去關心也有一些餐廳也有一些餐廳對嘛所以大專院校也有可能因為它周邊的飲食的問題所以所造成有可能他們涉入到這些問題之來對不起學校沒有辦法所有的社區每一家餐廳我們所以我說希望能夠關切嘛大學裡邊的餐廳我們全部有追蹤但是大學外的周邊當然是可能仰賴衛福部嘛去做抽查嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].start |
5861.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].end |
5869.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[192].text |
現在還是要提醒大專院校應該要去了解一下大專院校第一你可以承諾大專院校內的餐廳但是是不是也要了解一下大專院校外請大專院校好好關心這件事學生的安全 健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].start |
5889.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].end |
5918.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[193].text |
我跟委員的心情是一樣的我們一定要集體來維護我們要掌握啦反正大專院校我們也充分掌握所以我其實我要跟跟委員報告就這件事情我們當然不捨有一些不良廠商做了這樣一個壞的事患但是國教署在第一線跟地方政府的合作應該可以肯定好我只是要提醒你大學生也是學生這個部分一定要特別注意當然接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].start |
5919.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].end |
5941.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[194].text |
我要有請現在所有的官員回到座位上謝謝有請主席有請主席幫我邀請我們信義國小教師會常務理事唐一國先生請我們常理事上台部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].start |
5943.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].end |
5970.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[195].text |
我們依據我們現在立法院委員的手冊我們可以邀請社會的相關人士來委員會來跟大家分享今天我要邀請第一線的教師來跟大家報告來跟大家講第一線的困境第一線的為難也希望部長能夠好好的聽一下老師他們現在的困境他們到底是怎麼樣在第一線奮戰有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].start |
5978.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].end |
6006.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[196].text |
主席 各位委員 各位長官現場的媒體先生小姐 大家好感謝委員邀請我來分享教育現場的第一線的真實情況我是一名現職的老師 國小老師年資將近30年但今天我並不是來為教師爭取權益的我是來替學生請命替教育請命 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].start |
6007.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].end |
6033.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[197].text |
因为教育如果失败最后受害的不是老师而是整个国家的下一代我先分享两个真实的案例第一个十年前我当导师的时候我有一个学生过小毕业毕业的时候他告诉我说老师我长大之后啊也要像你一样当一个国小老师那我请他努力啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].start |
6034.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].end |
6062.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[198].text |
然後經過了三年的國中 三年的高中她真的考上了教育大學那再經過了四年的鍛煉她去年進入了教育實習的階段可是就在實習沒有多久她因為提醒一個上課講話比較大聲的一個女學生那個女學生頭抬起來就對她說看三小 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].start |
6065.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].end |
6092.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[199].text |
沒有錯 他就說了這三個字我們大家都知道這三個字有多麼的粗魯無力而且還是學生對老師說的他認住了幾秒鐘之後呢他就默默的離開那間教室然後請假回家整理思緒第三天回來學校去教育處辦理中指實習他不當老師了 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].start |
6094.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].end |
6118.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[200].text |
10年的教师梦当场梦碎他说他们希望未来30年还在这样的教育环境下工作我想这会不会是现在教师荒的可能原因之一那么第二个故事 第二个案例有一位老师在上课的时候 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].start |
6119.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].end |
6146.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[201].text |
用電子黑板就是手滑式觸控式的那一種那可能有一點接觸不良第一時間沒有滑出正確的畫面那有一個小男生立刻就說你是幹什麼吃的也是對老師這樣子說各位我們真正要問的是為什麼現在越來越多的孩子他會這樣子的對待老師呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].start |
6148.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].end |
6175.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[202].text |
教室其實它就是一個縮小版的社會各種孩子都有而孩子最容易模仿的就是他的同儕當少數學生可以羞辱老師而沒有明確界限的時候其他孩子就會跟風模仿老師原本準備了一場精彩的課卻因為少數學生的干擾而不得不中斷真正受傷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].start |
6177.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].end |
6203.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[203].text |
其实不是老师其实也不是那些呛瞎的学生真正受伤的是什么是全班二十几个认真学习的孩子今天被浪费的也不是一个老师的上课时间而是一整个班级的学习时间所以我要问了那些守规矩愿意学习的孩子他们的受教权又在哪呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].start |
6206.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].end |
6228.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[204].text |
我再分享一個案例有關校師會議為什麼會有防禦式教學有一位家長他的教學理念比較開放他常常幫女兒請三天的連假全家出去做家庭式的教學這很好 這沒有問題那回來之後是不是還要把學校的功課給補上呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].start |
6230.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].end |
6250.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[205].text |
但是她沒有那老師依照班規將她的號碼只要班上沒有繳交作業整齊的號碼她就會被記在班上記在黑板上那等你繳交完了之後自己就可以上去把它擦掉其實全國很多班級都是這麼處理的這沒有問題但是這個女生因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].start |
6251.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].end |
6271.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[206].text |
佼佼的東西可能太多了他沒有及時補完於是過了幾天之後圍板上只剩他的名字只剩他的號碼那他就覺得心裡不舒服跟他媽媽反應媽媽就跟老師溝通然後說是不是可以擦掉老師就說可以請他補教完就可以擦掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].start |
6273.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].end |
6295.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[207].text |
那這樣一個堅持班規堅持教學理念的老師呢居然就被媽媽指控為霸凌她的孩子這荒謬嗎一個老師請學生繳交作業居然可以成為霸凌的理由但是更荒謬的在後面 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].start |
6297.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].end |
6314.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[208].text |
他告到了學校校師會議還接受了這個老師還被送進校師會議做調查那所以最後當然沒有解聘停聘徐聘那些問題但是他還是強迫被接受兩個月的輔導 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].start |
6317.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].end |
6340.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[209].text |
那在那裡面當然就是身心煎熬受盡了委屈那從那之後很多老師就開始進行所謂的防禦式教學不是不想教不是不想管教而是不敢管教不是不願意要求而是不敢要求因為沒有人知道下一個被送進校士會議的人會不會是自己 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].start |
6342.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].end |
6352.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[210].text |
這就是教育現場的現況我想請大家注意的是老師他只是想保護自己但真正失去的是孩子的教育品質 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].start |
6354.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].end |
6381.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[211].text |
如果老師因為害怕而不敢管教失去受教權的就是大多數安靜、努力、守規矩的學生教育它從來就不只是教知識而已它更是教尊重、責任、規矩與是非那如果老師連維持秩序連繳交作業的要求都要擔心被調查那孩子到底要向誰學習呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[212].start |
6384.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].end |
6397.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[212].text |
我記得前幾個月有個團體上街教師團體上街表達訴求那我們教育部長回應我記得很清楚部長說請他們回學校把學生給教好 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].start |
6398.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].end |
6423.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[213].text |
那我在這裡要向部長報告我們每個老師真的都願意拿出最大的能力把學生教好但是老師們得到的支持和他們所被承擔的責任完全是不成比例的政策沒有支持認真的老師政策沒有支持認真的孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].start |
6424.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].end |
6450.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[214].text |
德國教育學家福布貝爾的名言他說教育無他為愛與榜樣而已那我認為教育它不只是在教室近距離學生跟老師之間聽到摸到看到才叫做教育才叫做模範政府官員的一言一行透過媒體也都是孩子們學習的榜樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].start |
6451.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].end |
6473.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[215].text |
我們今天呼籲的不是讓教師擁有什麼特權而是希望制度真正保護大多數孩子的受教權最後我懇請各位正視基層教師的吶喊正視基層教師教育的困境 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].start |
6475.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].end |
6500.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[216].text |
不要讓認真的老師寒心不要讓認真的孩子失望因此我誠懇建議校試會議是否能夠盡快暫停試用全面檢討之後該休就休 該廢就廢讓制度真正回到保障學生受教權的初衷我的報告到此 謝謝大家 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].start |
6501.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].end |
6519.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[217].text |
好 有請主席 請唐老師回去 那我們請部長請那個唐老師回座 那有請部長部長 最近有一則新聞國中生遲到被罰抄課文 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].start |
6520.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].end |
6545.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[218].text |
提國培 球場140萬 你知道這件事嗎我知道 我看到了我想部長我們一直在想家庭教育跟學校教育差別到底在哪裡我認為學校教育在於培養人格的一個場所我們在學校端也要盡可能的將它教好也希望它除了社會能夠有所發展但有沒有想過你覺得學生畢業以後就不關教育部的問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].start |
6545.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].end |
6566.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[219].text |
他是内政部法务部劳动部卫福部的事吗我想这个部分难道就跟教育部没有任何关系吗在今天的书面报告我们指出区分出缺席管理讲诚是为了避免同一行为重复处理若无法使用寄警告明确的惩处手段仅能提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].start |
6569 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].end |
6585.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[220].text |
勸導書面自省等輔導措施往往面臨輔導成效不彰學生無所畏懼的窘境剛剛我們看到唐老師也提到第一線看到孩子這麼直接在言語上我們要問 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].start |
6586.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].end |
6601.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[221].text |
教育部如果今天提醒勸導學生一個不喜歡聽說老師言語羞辱他檢舉老師最終面對校事會議的壓力怎麼辦書面窒息學生拒絕怎麼辦有沒有解方 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].start |
6602.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].end |
6629.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[222].text |
各位報告剛才這位老師的一個分享我想我們的想法都一樣的確保學生的受教權然後尊重老師的專業守護老師的一個專業教學我想我們的想法我們現在所有的法條規範我們目標都是一致的那剛才所提的我先回委員會所關心的那個案例我也非常感謝法院已經判決這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].start |
6631.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].end |
6656.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[223].text |
學生跟家長是敗訴的沒有錯那第二個但是過程他們是接好第二個我也要跟委員報告還有這位老師我們校事法裡面我們怎麼樣去處理不適任教師本來就是依據教事法裡面來訂定的那當然他有他的一個背景你不適任教師還是要有一定的處理機制沒有問題處理不適任教師我們都認同所以我們感謝委員的支持今年的音樂不適合號裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].start |
6657.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].end |
6674.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[224].text |
我們把過去造成老師的恐慌無謂的干擾這裡邊降到最低剛才也跟大會院報告過我們1月份委員所支持的這一個新的辦法這一個分流包含我們這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].start |
6675.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].end |
6700.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[225].text |
老師主任平時怎麼樣去做好親師溝通協助老師有更大的支持力量這些已經數據告訴我們直接降了我知道你說降很多啦所以我要談的是說第一線無感我先麻煩你針對我回應我先問你如果書面自省學生拒絕如果他提醒勸導的時候學生不喜歡聽直接說老師言語羞辱他 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].start |
6701.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].end |
6724.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[226].text |
去檢舉老師這方面有沒有什麼地方我想這一個部分就是我們第一條校長應該要承擔我們在分流裡邊這裡邊我們勿妄勿重嘛有教師代表有教長代表有社會公正人士校長主持所以這一個部分就是我們希望在第一階段裡邊就能夠講清楚能夠分流我今天聽出來你還是要想想 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].start |
6725.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].end |
6746.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[227].text |
如果今天書面的提醒請他自行勸導學生不喜歡不願意配合我們要怎麼辦我們不可能強迫他來部長你說對於長期初學時異常與休聽的再不得佳穎成主的建議下我們學校所能採取的是特殊管教措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].start |
6746.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].end |
6760.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[228].text |
如带回管教规划参加高关怀课程心理辅导社会服务还有其他的私性教育这个执行的门槛还有实际的成效为何教育部有没有具体的统计数据 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].start |
6761.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].end |
6777.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[229].text |
我想這個會後我們可以跟委員提供一個書面我相信這些東西具體的數據讓國人都擔憂讓教學現場都覺得可能沒有辦法讓我們能夠有更具體的教育現況我想委員也很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].start |
6778.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].end |
6784.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[230].text |
教學它是一個專業的工作那你說現在要特殊管教措施難道就不會給我們的孩子貼標籤嗎你們在說議員執委員的法案會貼標籤那你現在特殊管教措施不會貼標籤嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].start |
6796.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].end |
6821.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[231].text |
難道不會貼標籤嗎標籤的話基本上從學校的立場我們應該把它降到最低如果未有明顯改善初學期的情形那在不得已不能夠加以懲處的規範學校到底能做什麼我們今天就是要探討這個問題好好地去想想那陣子為什麼大家所有家長全部爆炸初學期掛課遲到不能進行到就有一個高中學生去因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].start |
6823.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].end |
6834.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[232].text |
缺課了然後學校寄了警告然後我知道不能同一行為是所以我們兩次的處罰所以你們開始規範這個這樣子的事情嗎好我們不是應該是說在那個時空我們立法院的委員當然對學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].start |
6840.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].end |
6863.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[233].text |
有許多的一些希望他的一個受教權能不能把他切開學習的跨課他學科成績當然受影響他畢業他可能超過跨課時數太多這個沒有辦法有些學生就不在乎他現在的所謂上場任何的教學他不在乎那我們要怎麼想讓其他願意受教的好學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].start |
6867.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].end |
6882.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[234].text |
我们又要不得成主又要维持秩序学校要怎么做一方面对学生负责避免日后又被批评放任学科教学专业的一个辅导跟教导而且这里边我们也这明文是不乏的 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].start |
6883.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].end |
6899.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[235].text |
部長我沒有要你跟我辯論你辯贏我也沒有用我現在就問你現在現在的狀況我們又要不得懲處又要維護秩序我們到底要怎麼樣學校才可以好好的去做我們又怕被批評為放任缺課這樣的制度設計下 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].start |
6900.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].end |
6927.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[236].text |
我們教育部認為學校如何實際做到報告中所說的兼顧學生權益保障又支持教師輔導管教需求部長你教大家在更一個現實的問題未來發生學生長期缺課或者在學校校園內外發生傷害的時候社會輿論第一個追究一定是學校為什麼沒有及早介入為什麼沒有採取更積極的管理措施 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].start |
6928.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].end |
6954.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[237].text |
所以今天我們在講清水高級中學發生的這個憾事我們都不捨今天楊爸爸在現場我們對於這些長期有問題的孩子我們要怎麼樣實施管教避免日後造成更大的問題部長出了事以後教育部公開第一線替老師背書說他們依法行事還是要回頭再檢討學校機制不夠完備 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].start |
6956.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].end |
6981.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[238].text |
報告中我們看到高關懷課程對於高關懷的違規情形重大的學生經學校相關會議一決後以抽離式進行課程編班如學生問題類型不同以彈性分組教學模式安排課程那請問一下部長面臨龐大的拒學拒絕學習喔還有情緒的困擾需求現行的資源足夠嗎我最後要問一句現在的學生不尊重時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].start |
6983.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].end |
6999.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[239].text |
不敬老師日後造成社會問題會由整個社會一同承擔我們希望部長好好想一下今天為什麼我會辦這個報告不只是家長不只是老師所有的委員大家都很關心也希望你能夠好好的檢討這些政策所帶來的問題學生團體老師還有地方縣市教育局處來 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].start |
7006.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].end |
7027.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[240].text |
整個來這個看怎麼樣有一個更與時俱進的一個這樣一個管教方法我想我們一定是支持老師的這毋庸置疑我今天不只是用委員的身份我是用家長的身份在擔憂在跟你做溝通我希望你們真的好好想一想我同意老師現在面臨的挑戰確實是比以前大那我們一起來努力謝謝好謝謝部長請回座謝謝羅昭偉 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].start |
7046.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].end |
7056.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[241].text |
好,我們下一位柯子恩委員好,謝謝周阿偉,我們是請部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].start |
7064.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].end |
7065.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[242].text |
你们现在有结论了吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].start |
7091.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].end |
7115.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[243].text |
也剛才跟我們這個委員會是已經有報告來我們先看一下嘛所以說目前為止在你們閉門會議當中你們顯然是說要續推校師會議嘛但是呢就是校師團體的剛剛不管是我們剛也有第一線的老師來說他們當然希望宗錦默默當然是廢除但是很顯然你們是要維持校師會議但是要讓各地方政府有這個調處的一個機制這沒錯吧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].start |
7117.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].end |
7146.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[244].text |
地方政府调处机制所有的各地方的处长还有局长都同意吗这是你们的共识吗那为什么我们在地方他们都认为说教育部应该让他有个法律的位阶如果只是让各地方来做一个调处的机制某种程度还是有非常大的一个问题而且部长你上次还特别讲很多时候就存有一些资讯的一个落差你们认为在抑郁的时候其实已经做了非常多的处理包括匿名的处理等等之类 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].start |
7146.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].end |
7163.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[245].text |
还有很多大小案的分流但是呢很多外界可能不太清楚你可以问问一下所有的在场的一个一线的老师他们认为如果资讯有些落差的话那一定是教育部的问题没有让老师亲自的一个理解而且最重要的是即使如此 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].start |
7164.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].end |
7176.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[246].text |
資訊很透明但是老師在第一線仍然深刻感受教師會議會是他們永遠都會是下一個會被送進去的部分所以還是沒有辦法解決他們的一個焦慮部長這該怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].start |
7178.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].end |
7194.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[247].text |
校士會議委員也很清楚他有他的時空上的一些特定的社會事件所以才會才109年我懂部長我現在就要特別提到的現在也跟委員報告就是說因為你今天校士會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].start |
7195.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].end |
7217.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[248].text |
就是没有你还是要面临老师这一个解病不是病的没有错 布长你拿到了一个重点我们先把我们的问题问完你讲到一个很大的重点了我们都维护学生的百分之百的受教权但是呢 校师会如果只是单纯处理不是任而且非常严重的把它送进校师会议没有话讲 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].start |
7217.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].end |
7238.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[249].text |
而且我們只要涉及教師法第十四條到第十八條你把它交給教師會議處理就好了你現在最大的問題就是有一些班級經營言語發生的侵蝕之間的衝突全部把它送至教師會議這才是個最大的問題所以你如果有辦法其實從教育部的觀點我們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].start |
7240.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].end |
7258.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[250].text |
保護學生的受教育我們更在意老師能不能安心的做好專業所以這一個我們事實上跟我們報告有那麼多人的投訴家長都說這老師不是人要解聘所以我們才要前面分流說他沒有那麼嚴重他只要老師家長其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].start |
7261.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].end |
7280.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[251].text |
你如果我也完全我说实在这邵氏会不是在你任内搞出来的你现在就是要来收拾了我对你这点贸易非常大的觉得你也很委屈了我们就是来解决事情就我来说的话就诚如我刚刚说的很多班级经营言语引发的误解你是可以不用送进来 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].start |
7280.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].end |
7299.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[252].text |
在過去的時候就是全部送進消費費你看有個最簡單那個部分嘛你在你的解聘辦法當中109年所公佈的只有3855個字你知道113年你修正後你增加到11696個字洋洋灑灑的搞到校園裡面雞飛狗跳的到了今年你所修正的 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].start |
7299.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].end |
7317.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[253].text |
自诉更多你反所有的部分里面部长我告诉你你现在目前是匿名不受理案件是有减少但是效率现场的失序的混乱凡检举必成案的陷阱很多事后还是没有办法解决嘛尖刀小手正业就在这地方嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].start |
7318.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].end |
7341.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[254].text |
不是教师的解聘以前的就行尸有年了就可以处理很多的事情你需要搞一个最前面的部分然后大家已经鸡飞狗跳老师都不想留了你们又开始来告诉大家好我们来解决就来解决分流的问题再来解决我们一个调解的机制地方政府可以授权你这中间已经耗了多少时间了所有老师还待在这个地方呢我都佩服他们的韧性哎 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].start |
7343.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].end |
7362.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[255].text |
我們一頁通過的確實我們教育部怎麼樣來加強先導還有22個地方縣市教育局也怎麼樣去加強他們在地的你覺得到目前為止你做的這樣部分裡面就是我在等你7月15號完成的部分我只能告訴你我們召集人台中市 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].start |
7362.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].end |
7370.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[256].text |
校士會都減少了52%那個案件都減少了52%你問在場的老師減少的部分是來自於老師根本就是根本不敢管不想管所以你的案件變慢變得減少真的是來自於數字的部分嗎你要看到數字背後本質的問題啊老師不想管不想得罪家長當然就沒有這些事情啊那你讓這整個校園變成什麼樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].start |
7388.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].end |
7402.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[257].text |
我想很多我不能直接用因果關係我同意不能直接用因果關係但是至少我們所有的data跟地方的一個座談它是往好的方向我們也希望它能夠更快的讓第一線上的老師能夠頂下來能夠安心 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].start |
7412.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].end |
7439.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[258].text |
你真的也到各处去特别到彰化去你特别去问彰化教育处问彰化的第一线老师你怎么样关心彰化没有问题他们真的有他们都有感受到校士会议的存在对老师真的是有觉得目前为止都不会是下一个吗你们问问第一线的老师如果有的话我们这些老师就不会这么沉重的一个说明更何况你刚所提到的我们学生的初勤管理的这个部分你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].start |
7440.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].end |
7467.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[259].text |
这个部分的部分我们刚刚特别周围排的这个提案当然也是根于我们目前来说最有名的就是迟到被罚泄然后呢要求偿140万我想以教育的观点来去看我们来去看教育部你们今天告诉我们报告当中你要持续兼顾学生的权益支持老师的辅导管教需求我们一样要问给老师的所谓的感教需求的底线到底在哪里 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].start |
7468.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].end |
7485.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[260].text |
因为很多人会非常的担心啊因为他们很担心没有办法而且张六次长还特别说老师不需要惧怕对学生正当的管教老师不需惧怕吗你问在场的老师老师现在就是非常的惧怕因为他们认为随时做的哪一些的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].start |
7486.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].end |
7511.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[261].text |
都有可能背诉然后呢即使最后判他们一切无法无罪但是这整个过程的一个煎熬所以说大家就很无奈啊而且刚有人提出一个我们目前来说高中职老师特别无奈他们说目前为止毕业的下滑率到90.3%没有错嘛然后你告诉我们目前高中生高中职有16510个人是没有拿到毕业的可是你们告诉我们 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].start |
7511.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].end |
7528.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[262].text |
毕业不等于没有完成高中学业啊你还是可以选择同等学历去考试啊而且你还可以再回来这个高中你到了大学之后你还是可以回到高中啊有一位高中校长告诉我现在拿到高中毕业的证书比拿到大学毕业证书还要困难 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].start |
7528.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].end |
7544.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[263].text |
沒有人會再回來但是部長說實在的就是因為現在的很多的學生他即使放空他即使什麼事都不做然後呢他沒有畢業他雖然可以往前走但是這真的是我們教育的目的嗎真的就是讓老師為了不敢管教不想管 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].start |
7546.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].end |
7548.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[264].text |
这才是我们现在目前的宽容成了我们台湾教育的慢性毒药 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].start |
7572.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].end |
7590.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[265].text |
这真的是一个校长他非常非常沉动的一个部分宽容成了我们台湾教育的一个慢性毒药你看看不交作业缺考撬课通知家长不来上课睡觉拿不到毕业证书也不担心这是我们目前的教育现象部长这是我们要的吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].start |
7591.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].end |
7605.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[266].text |
當然不是當然不是所以你給老師什麼樣的一個所謂大家所說的不要害怕去管教老師能不害怕嗎你其實把數字降低了但是實質存在老師心裡的一個陰影隨時變成下一個可能會被調查的這個問題沒有解決部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].start |
7610.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].end |
7638.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[267].text |
如果你回到過去不是讓老師用教師法這個解聘的方法來所以這就是今天我們為什麼在這個地方要求把我們的解聘辦法退回去修正的原因嘛你如果照你這個方法讓它過的話很多老師會跳腳的所以退回去修正嘛如果以去年我進來之前所有的這個案例跟校園的執行情形我告訴各位委員如果沒有今天的改變只有更慘烈 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].start |
7639.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].end |
7658.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[268].text |
谁造成这种惨烈我们以前就没有这么惨烈始作俑者是哪里为什么我们现在要讨论到具名不具名这么细节的技术问题这只是我们在老师他被告的时候你现在用一个技术性的不再让他比较但是更前呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].start |
7658.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].end |
7674.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[269].text |
那時候就是學校裡邊因為發生了這些事件不幸的事件老師被社會大眾認為師師相護連台中市政府要介入都不得其謀所以才會有這樣的一個辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].start |
7677.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].end |
7703.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[270].text |
我知道但是你有沒有覺得為了這件事情我們也不希望從這個慘事發生為了這件事情引發更大的一個機制出來之後引發更大老師的這個恐慌跟反彈你還是認為這個校式會議的機制有解決問題嗎我們現在努力積極希望能夠迎善更友善的校園其實一定要合作我最後問一句部長所以校式會議廢除是你還是你最終的目標嗎這當然是 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].start |
7706.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].end |
7732.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[271].text |
如果他能夠回到正常當親師合作老師學生家長大家彼此信任能夠有一個更好的一個學習環境我相信沒有人會反對這時候就回到專業校教評會裡面針對不適任老師去做所以目前來說沒有辦法回到專業的教評會就是因為還有很多更嚴重的事情來處理是這樣子嗎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].start |
7734.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].end |
7752.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[272].text |
然後呢所以說你現在所要降低我幫你釐清所以你現在要降低的就是有關親師之間管教問題在裡面的問題裡面你就不要再讓他進到校師會議嘛這可以做得到嘛對不對只有一些非常嚴重不適任的這個部分符合校師法14條到第18條的這個部分就可以這樣子嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].start |
7756.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].end |
7777.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[273].text |
這個部分你要堅守住可是我告訴你聽聽地方老師的聲音如果這個地方沒有辦法好好的讓老師覺得他的教學權是可以受到保障的很多家長無理的這個要求是可以讓學校可以在第一線做處理的我告訴你老師的恐懼留不住老師還是 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].start |
7778.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].end |
7791.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[274].text |
會繼續持續下去的各位報告我這兩年一直在地方跑就是在傾聽家長的聲音老師的聲音我也希望各種團體的聲音能夠讓學校能夠更好我想這是我們匯圖是終極的目標我們就來看看在這個過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].start |
7795.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].end |
7814.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[275].text |
可以如何能够回到我们最专业的最后我还是利用时间来问一下有关我们教育经费的部分你也很清楚求不能穷孩子这一步的部分呢我很比较遗憾的地方就是才化法修法之后呢很多的钱是下放给地方但是呢这个部分来说的话中央是减少3753亿的收入 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].start |
7817.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].end |
7836.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[276].text |
按比例来说的话我们教育金费的分担只要减少155亿就可以了但是组织处硬要减少500亿你就是告诉我们有345亿的教育金费是超减的是超减的部长怎么可以用这个方法来这个对我们的教育金费做这样的一个处理所以我们目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].start |
7837.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].end |
7861.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[277].text |
跟所有的很多的民间的教育团体来大声的疾呼我们应该明确的分担12.9%的底线12.9%的底线你们教育部不应该拿财政纪律法来当挡箭牌因为你是超减300多亿哦你要根据它12.9%是不受任何法令来制造的你不要拿这个东西12.9%是我们的底线有没有办法做到 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].start |
7862.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].end |
7878.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[278].text |
跟委員報告我們現在在努力的就是我們把財務法以後中央包括行政一般講補助有關教育這個區塊到地方去還有教育部這一塊到地方去我們希望把它爐裂出來讓地方縣市教育局處能夠根據這個跟縣市首長說 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].start |
7881.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].end |
7895.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[279].text |
對啦 但是不知道我就告訴你嘛你應該仔細因為原來他用來支持中央支持你放回教育到地方去很清楚幫你算出來了嘛你大概只要減少一百五十五億就可以了目前為止我們減到五百億我就跟你說你超減 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].start |
7896.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].end |
7922.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[280].text |
你就是要底線 我的底線很簡單 守住12.9%的一個底線因為財政紀律法在第7條 你們常常拿出法 法律可以修但是呢這個財政紀律法的第7條不是財政憲法它是一部普通法律所以不能凌駕於其他法律 更不能阻止立法委員來做這樣一個事情所以我今天特別提出來任何保障教育經費比例的法律一概 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].start |
7922.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].end |
7949.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[281].text |
不得於來做這樣的一個並沒有規定喔並沒有這樣所以部長請你看清楚喔不應該是拒絕說法的一個藉口我現在只是很卑微的希望能夠擋住12.9%即使過去大家要修這個裁判法即使以前大家要修裁判法不管做人跟地方怎麼拼等個12.9%的底線還是要求中央應該來分擔部長你就應該好好的跟行政院表達我們教育部的立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].start |
7950.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].end |
7963.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[282].text |
這些部分不能夠轉嫁給地方我還是強調減收300多億這個部分是部長你應該替我們守住不要每次都拿才化法來才化法有很大的細緻才化法有它的分裂 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].start |
7967.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].end |
7986.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[283].text |
我們一定希望把這些的錢所有的資源能夠用在該用在教育的不要被挪到其他這是我們共同的目標我剛剛條列了非常多所以希望部長能夠大家共同來配合不要什麼事情都拿財化法然後把一箭擋下然後好像財化法是萬惡不赦一來我們地方都沒有錢不是的 很多的錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].start |
7988.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].end |
8007.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[284].text |
中央補助支持地方的教育經費不要被拿到其他地方當然是嘛當然是嘛所以你把他餅做大嘛12.9%放在部分裡面把他守住我們就可以守住目前來說我們還少了356億這點是要告訴特別告訴部長好 謝謝部長好 謝謝景輝下一位陳佩玉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].start |
8021.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].end |
8047.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[285].text |
好謝謝主席那有請部長有請部長委員好好部長我們就先來講一下教育經費好了剛剛柯市長委員也說了那目前我看了許多委員的提案的版本有些問題跟部長請教第一個確實是才化法的問題我印象非常深刻去年在立法院修才化法的時候所有的民進黨委員被擋在 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].start |
8048.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].end |
8063.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[286].text |
委員會的外面然後國民黨的委員呢召委就火速的通過了他們版本的才化法通過了之後呢連國民黨的委員離島的陳雪生委員跟陳玉珍委員還有本黨的楊耀委員當然楊耀委員被擋在外面才猛然的發現說天啊國民黨的計算公式有誤 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].start |
8066.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].end |
8093.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[287].text |
導致於陳雪生跟陳玉珍所負責的金門跟馬祖呢受到了非常多非常嚴重的財務資源的排擠所以國民黨又荒謬再提出自己的提案我要說目前新版的財化法它就是在一個沒有中央政府跟地方政府好好溝通的情況下在野黨運行通過的版本結果行政院所有部會幫忙忙著擦屁股所以編出了到現在還躺在立法院的預算我的背景說明是不是非常清楚部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].start |
8094.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].end |
8120.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[288].text |
好所以也就是說現在我們今天躺在桌上的所有國民黨委員提案的版本包含教育經費編列的部分不論是基金或者是明白的寫出水電費或者是營養午餐的國產食材這些都必須要透過修法要求教育部要保障這個經費而且要教育部買單我會說在我剛剛說明的前提之下我認為非常的不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].start |
8121.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].end |
8136.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[289].text |
尤其水電費的部分如果我們按照地方制度法第18條跟第19條這些各級學校的教育跟自治事項是歸地方政府所主管所以包含各個地方現在不論是候選人或是現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].start |
8137.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].end |
8160.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[290].text |
已經在當縣市首長的這些人他們承諾要營養午餐買單要給學生喝鮮奶喝豆漿我認為所有照顧學生的措施我們當然全力的支持可是如果沒有考慮到各個地方財力的狀況甚至大開支票之後現在回過頭來縮減了地方教育的預算甚至有所排擠 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].start |
8161.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].end |
8183.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[291].text |
在很多地方政府其實議員可能要資料都要不到而當現在國民黨委員在中央的立法院提案要求教育部為水電費買單為營養午餐買單的時候我會說請問教育部你們如何跟地方政府溝通不能地方政府大開政治支票但是卻要教育部買單而且前提是在一個不平等的才化法修法情況底下來 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].start |
8186.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].end |
8214.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[292].text |
各位確實因為當時採訪完以後這些水電費營養午餐學校午餐補助三張EQ等等的這都已經都下到地方去了所以從教育部的立場我們當然希望能夠以後能夠督促這些錢到地方去地方應該善用這些錢確保這一個各種政策推動的一個教育品質我想這是我們未來積極跟地方合作要來提醒的 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].start |
8215.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].end |
8229.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[293].text |
而且我覺得要強力的提醒跟討論如果沒有共識但是最後卻透過在立法院的強行的非常惡修法的這個狀態我認為對於中央教育部非常的不公平也會排擠到教育部的其他預算同時我要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].start |
8230.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].end |
8254.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[294].text |
現在委員的版本裡面甚至提出要設立基金但是一旦涉及到基金我會說他沒有說所謂的自籌財源關於這個基金到底要如何成立成立之後錢要從哪裡來其實也沒有說明這個在財政紀律法裡面我認為也是不允許的我不確定目前教育部跟相關的委員溝通的進度是什麼關於基金的部分柯志恩委員的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].start |
8256.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].end |
8270.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[295].text |
他要設立基金那我會說目前按照他們提案的草案裡面呢他根本沒有提出新增適當的裁員但是卻要求教育部去設立基金依法來講他不需要新增的非公部門裡面的這個預算的經費裡面來編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].start |
8273.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].end |
8291.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[296].text |
所以我覺得這個部分也要溝通雖然今天只有詢答但是我們看到所有這些提案的版本如果最後所有的事情都要問責於教育部那我就問地方政府對於中學還有小學他們在地制法裡面所必須承擔的責任卻沒有去承擔我覺得這個會非常非常的荒謬 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].start |
8292.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].end |
8319.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[297].text |
但是我認為教育部的預算如果因此受到排擠那其實是所有的孩子所有的家長所有的老師親師生大家共同承擔這個當年國民黨的委員把民進黨的委員擋在門外的惡修才化法的修法這個後果其實是全民都在承擔尤其是教育這個部分所以我要拜託教育部積極的當然今天只有尋答沒有處理可是在後續處理之前我認為教育部必須要 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].start |
8320.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].end |
8340.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[298].text |
先行跟相關提案的委員做溝通跟做說明當然地方政府目前如何在他們新年度的預算當中去處理相關的教育費用我認為教育部也要去收集資料不能政治支票開出去了政治紅利都歸他但是最後要教育部買單我再次強調非常不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].start |
8342.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].end |
8355.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[299].text |
部長可以嗎是的我也跟委員報告因為確實當這個地方不管是什麼原因對學童的營養午餐這個飲食的一個照顧但是我們也從地方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].start |
8357.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].end |
8374.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[300].text |
這個上個禮拜的這個全國教育局處所長的會議裡面也確實有教育局處所長這個反應因為這個免費的營養午餐已經造成縣市內的一個教育監會上推動的一些這一個緊錯就是有排擠的一個效應出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].start |
8375.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].end |
8397.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[301].text |
那所以在這裡邊怎麼樣讓地方真正的許多的教育資源能夠妥善的用在孩子的身上學校教育的發展老師的照顧我想我們會跟地方有一個更積極的來這個協作看怎麼樣有一個訊息能夠更公開而且在政策上能夠有更充分的一個價值的一個討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].start |
8397.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].end |
8421.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[302].text |
好 那部長請問一下在開完教育局處首長會議之後不知道你們是不是有討論到營養午餐專法因為羅廷偉召委今天下午要排關於這個部分的處理其實上一次我們就已經有討論過到底地方教育局處首長他們所呈現出來在營養午餐專法的態度是什麼部長可不可以這邊給一點時間先做說明因為原來的專法之前一直沒有辦法也感謝委員的這個諒解 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].start |
8425.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].end |
8436.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[303].text |
就是說讓我們跟地方有更多的充分的一個溝通交換意見的一個機會那這些年來確實地方因為人力因為這個編制因為經費上還各個縣市的一個樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].start |
8441.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].end |
8462.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[304].text |
這個包含偏鄉它確實是存有許多的差異所以一直比較沒有辦法有共識那在這一個部分呢就是說當22個地方縣市都全部把它宣示為這一個免費營養午餐的時候我想從教育部的一個立場我們就是怎麼樣讓學生能夠吃得健康吃得安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].start |
8463.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].end |
8475.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[305].text |
這裡邊我們從一個更高的位階來協助地方做好食安的一些品質的管制我想這是我們未來的一個重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].start |
8476.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].end |
8502.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[306].text |
因為今天下午就要處理了我還是要先行點出一些困境也讓部長參考我不確定您在七月的會議裡面有沒有收集到這些訊息我舉一個例子當台北市的一餐可能是70塊到80塊可是到了台中可能價格又不一樣了到台南到高雄甚至到屏東花蓮台東就像部長說的22個縣市現在所有的營養午餐的甲方全部都是地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].start |
8502.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].end |
8521.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[307].text |
而费用又有如此的差异的时候我会说到底这个费用的差异是反映了食材的差异还是反映了人事成本的差异还是反映了城乡差距如果地方政府都没有把相关的数字如实的告诉教育部未来如果家长发现 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].start |
8523.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].end |
8545.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[308].text |
營養午餐是如此的不平等我們未來可能會再度看到在花蓮的孩子的餐桌上跟在台北孩子的餐桌上會有非常大的差異甚至我講一個更可怕的未來在花蓮的孩子的營養午餐的廚餘桶裡面我們所看到的差異也會跟台北的孩子差很多目前我們看到甚至有六都裡面的某一個縣市我就不說 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].start |
8546.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].end |
8564.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[309].text |
他標榜要讓他們的孩子吃全台灣的海鮮全台灣的國產食材這當然不是壞事可是如果這個只是為了政治紅利而不去考慮這些食材到底適不適合放入營養午餐我會說他最後會變成廚餘最後我們台灣的營養午餐的廚餘桶會變成滿是國產高級食材的營養午餐廚餘桶 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].start |
8572.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].end |
8595.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[310].text |
而這個事情不能只是讓地方教育局處跟部長喊窮跟部長說我們要錢然後甚至是讓他們的國民黨委員在立法院提案修法要部長買單我覺得非常非常的荒謬所以這些營養午餐我光是舉出費用這件事情的困境我相信部長你應該要往下去跟地方政府好好處理他們不能 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].start |
8596.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].end |
8611.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[311].text |
報喜不報憂他們不能把鍋都甩給你然後要你全部買單我會說這非常非常的荒謬還有現在所有的營養午餐的裁員不是只有食材出現了問題除工的費用還有所有的人事的費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].start |
8611.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].end |
8631.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[312].text |
還有甚至午餐秘書還有營養師目前就算在專法裡面未來我們要去處理我都不知道因地制宜要怎麼處理而且現在我再次說費用是地方政府要出的而未來地方政府會不會因為想要負擔食材所以把營養師的扣打降低把無密的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].start |
8633.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].end |
8659.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[313].text |
壓到學校老師的身上甚至讓老師無償的幫忙做這個事情部長你知道無密的工作有多麼繁雜嗎所以我會說地方政府不能再做這樣的事情真的必須要做下來跟中央政府溝通還有我們在修專法的時候也必須要考慮到這些情況再來現在因為營養午餐它的事情過去在沒有專法之前它其實是地方政府的行政選擇而在學校裡面我們也是用代辦費來幫孩子們處理這個收費 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].start |
8662.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].end |
8681.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[314].text |
也就是說如果這些本質上的事情都沒有處理我真的不知道我們今天下午要怎麼修轉法當然我希望下午署長 國家署長你可以跟全體的委員做報告到底你們在相關的局處會議中有哪些事情大家已經有共識有哪些事情大家還沒有共識必須要再積極討論我也要先公開請求 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].start |
8683.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].end |
8702.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[315].text |
羅廷偉委員下午在主持會議的時候我們上次沒有機會讓署長好好的說這一次我已經先具體的就提出了這些問題更不要講下午的營養午餐版本可能有二三十個大家對於費用的分擔對於成本對於國產食材對於很多很多事情的指引其實都沒有一個定見跟沒有共識喔還有我要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].start |
8704.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].end |
8718.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[316].text |
現在國產食材這件事情我覺得是最大的困境部長 我跟你報告在蘇貞昌院長的時期因為我們希望照顧國產食材照顧更多的小農我們希望讓孩子的營養午餐大量的採用國產食材所以當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].start |
8718.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].end |
8741.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[317].text |
貿易部給了補助行政院給了補助可是如果未來錢回到地方必須要出會不會他們就從國產食材這件事情去擠壓相關的成本然後讓孩子可能吃到是更多進口食材可是荒謬的是這樣的進口食材可能更是國民黨立法委員們可能還要在相關的食安法裡面去修要求地方要用國產食材那我就問當 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].start |
8743.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].end |
8769.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[318].text |
有人說要這樣修法99%都是國產食材要必須是現在制度規格可是地方政府又不願花錢買單的時候我真的不知道立了那個法跟實際上行政執行的困境落差會在哪裡會不會到最後所有的困境一樣還是我們的學生在承擔部長我只是舉了這麼多問題我希望我們在下午討論營養午餐的時候可以針對這些事情讓部長跟署長好好的報告好來部長可以請您簡單回應一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].start |
8771.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].end |
8788.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[319].text |
我想確實怎麼樣確保這個學童能夠吃的新鮮吃的安全吃的健康大家的想法目標都是一致的那所以過去這個也透過這個平台裡面我們事實上這個國產豬大概有99點 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].start |
8792.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].end |
8812.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[320].text |
酒都是用了國產食材我們在平台上都登記的非常清楚包含這一次的一個食品安全我們能夠快速在這個平台裡面能夠去找到這個學校那我想在未來我們中央跟地方一定要來共同來協力來合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].start |
8812.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].end |
8835.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[321].text |
好那最後再給我一點時間謝謝主席關於今天要討論關於校事會議的部分剛剛我想很多委員都已經表達了態度但是我要說在今天目前我們在談這件事情因為教育部現在送進來在各位委員手上的版本其實是送立法院備查那立法委員在什麼時候可以處理這個備查的部分呢如果按照立院職權行使法第62條就是當我們發現你們送進來的辦法一 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].start |
8839.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].end |
8854.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[322].text |
他有違母法的時候跟母法有非常大的漢格的時候有非常大荒謬錯誤的時候立法院這邊可以要求退回教育部我們會要求你們更正或是要求你們撤銷就是當他有違反母法的時候可是現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].start |
8854.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].end |
8880.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[323].text |
在我們看到教育部送進來的版本裡面是針對是在1月的部分針對相關的部分進行修法而我們來回憶一下這個修法最早是因為教師法在108年進行了修法所以在109年把相關校事會議的機制提出來所以回過頭來看我不知道等一下我們在委員會要處理的到底是針對教育部今年在醫院修法這個版本送進立法院的部分我們覺得立法有立法委員覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].start |
8881.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].end |
8900.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[324].text |
教育部版本出現的錯誤還是大家根本要去否決109年校士會議的提出甚至回溯到108年因為要處理非常多不適任教師而提出教師法修法我發現有法理上一層一層往上推的荒謬我不確定教育部知不知道等一下我們在教育委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].start |
8900.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].end |
8930.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[325].text |
後續如果要處理校師會議的部分會發生哪些法理上層次的問題但我就先提出來這是一個部分再來我非常認同我之前從三年前進到立法院我就一直在跟教育部講一件事情我也不確定教育部現在進度但是我相信是在場大家共同的共識就是要解決親師生的衝突不能把所有的工作都壓在學校老師身上我當時就一直告訴部長我們最關鍵是如果沒有處理家庭教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].start |
8930.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].end |
8951.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[326].text |
如果沒有處理家庭教育如果沒有因地制宜的去處理家庭教育其實所有的困境所有的痛苦是老師在承擔是行政人員在承擔是所有在學校好好上課的孩子在承擔而所有我們發現在爛宿的狀況當中確實有很多是因為家庭教育出了問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].start |
8952.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].end |
8970.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[327].text |
那家庭教育出了問題過去相關在教育部的費用裡面是貴中生教育司而中生教育司我們發現這連續三年來相關的預算不論是因為受到才化法沒有提升還是過去可能不在部長您的政策視野當中我都會說家庭教育現在是大家認為最有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].start |
8971.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].end |
9000.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[328].text |
逐步化解校园青师生冲突教育部必须要开始施力的地方唯有把家庭教育这一块的量能跟资源提升上来才有可能间接的减少学校老师在面对家长的压力甚至未来不论是第三方也好甚至我们更勇敢的去想象一个双导师的状况去减少老师的行政负担减少老师的教学负担减少老师的青师生沟通的负担我认为都是教育部未来要去想象跟考虑如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].start |
9000.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].end |
9027.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[329].text |
和更加協助學校老師這件事情同時我也要說校師會議這件事情的困境如果現在真的如同很多老師所說的是老師在承擔但我相信我也要再次提醒所有的委員跟部長其實很多家長也在承擔這個困境他們可能也真的很想要好好做家庭教育但是面對數位時代的孩子面對不同典範時代的典範在做轉移 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].start |
9027.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].end |
9054.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[330].text |
的这个时代其实很多老师他面对教学方法也好班级经营也好亲师生沟通也好他们也更需要教育部的支持而学生也是家长也是所以拜托未来我当然看到在教育部相关资料里面有说会健全家庭教育但我认为这应该是未来部长您重要的施政方向如何让家庭教育的量能提升让老师有感让家长有感让学生有感我认为是部长未来您非常重大的考验 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].start |
9055.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].end |
9080.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[331].text |
好以上我是不是讓部長簡單回應一下家庭教育謝謝委員我想我們這個校事會議這個送這個大宴被查當然也希望能夠我們委員能夠給我們一些指證假設我們有一些法令上或者有自愛難行或者違反這一個法令的一個本意精神我想我們都樂意這一個來從善如流 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].start |
9080.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].end |
9107.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[332].text |
那刚才委员特别提到了这个亲师合作这确实也是我们这一个应该说从开始在思考校师会怎么调整我们跟地方的一个座谈里面看到这个亲师一定程度上的一个紧张怎么样去让亲师合作才能够真正维护到小孩子的学生的受教权这确实是我们未来应该更积极加强的一个重点 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].start |
9107.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].end |
9126.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[333].text |
好 以上謝謝部長 謝謝主席有點超過時間 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝部長稍後在業人之委員詢答完畢後休息五分鐘現在有請業人之委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].start |
9139.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].end |
9140.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[334].text |
主席好 慢慢請部長 謝謝有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].start |
9149.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].end |
9169.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[335].text |
首先我非常先跟昭偉感謝一下今天特別有排我的提案就是國民轉介教育條例草案這個就是安心上學法案我先講一下我們當初提這個案子最主要想要解決校園安全的問題因為像幾年前在新北市發生了土城的戈井案 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].start |
9170.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].end |
9198.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[336].text |
還有我們看到前一段時間也有新北市另外一個國中有學生拿著鋁棒往一個另外一個學生的頭上敲下去那個聲音非常清脆啊一不小心可能就有生命的危險昨天我在網路上也看到一個影片是好幾個學生在打架打得非常兇狠然後老師要去勸架老師完全都沒有辦法甚至於其他學生還說老師小心像這樣子一個危險的 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].start |
9199.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].end |
9222.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[337].text |
學生在校園裡面其實如果只要一個學校有一個的話整個全校都會非常害怕那我們為了要保護善良的學生我們為了要保護老師能夠在學校好好的教書我們為了要保護所有想要上課的學生在學校可以好好的上課我覺得如果有一些特別危險的 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].start |
9224.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].end |
9252.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[338].text |
学生比如说平常带刀上课比如说对其他师生有生命安全的这一种学生我们应该要有一个机制透过专家评估强制他转学转学到一个教育部另外设立的专属学校而且加强资源我觉得这个是为了要解决教育现场现在失序的问题但很遗憾看到教育部的报告完全都是用负面的角度来解读这个法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].start |
9253.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].end |
9276.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[339].text |
講了一個東西啊說應該要行政先行去標籤化什麼叫行政先行去標籤化就是說標籤化就是司法嘛然後說在司法介入之前應該要由教育、社政等行政體系優先提供關懷與輔導避免兒少因為偏差的行為直接進入到司法程序而承受負面標籤第一啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].start |
9278.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].end |
9307.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[340].text |
其實你如果說用教育部你現在在報告裡面所提出來的那些所謂的機制比如說叫他上高關懷課程比如說叫他去中途學校這就給他標籤化了啦這就是標籤化了啦第二個行政先行就是沒有用嘛現在教育部要去思考的是怎麼樣在你所謂的在加害的同學的去標籤化的這個利益以及教學秩序的這個利益兩個球去平衡哪個重要嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].start |
9307.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].end |
9331.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[341].text |
因為你不想要讓加害者有標籤化所以整個教育市場就失序然後學生就應該要受害你知道像一個學校只要有一個我剛剛講的那種學生他怎麼樣才可以離開教學現場嗎有人被殺啦有人受害啦才有辦法離開我們難道就要讓這個憾事持續在校園發生嗎部長敢保證嗎所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].start |
9335.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].end |
9358.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[342].text |
部長我這個等一下再跟你討論好了啦部長先回座我現在因為今天特別有請到我們這個就剛剛我提到了國三生哥警案清水高中的很不幸過世的楊同學的爸爸楊爸爸到現場我想要請楊爸爸到我們備詢有請楊先生請到備詢台 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].start |
9367.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].end |
9394.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[343].text |
楊爸我跟你請教一下以您的這個自身的案例您覺得以現在的教育體制楊同學有辦法被保護住嗎楊爸您可以部長也在台下您看看有什麼話可以跟他說其實以我現在來看我兒子還是沒辦法被保護住為什麼這兩個小朋友就像 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].start |
9395.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].end |
9421.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[344].text |
鐵拳教育的第六級一樣他們認為他們就是未成年他們有無底星星了更何況劇中的那幾個小朋友都會假裝的90度鞠躬我們的呢沒有他們是更離譜真的非常離譜的兩個人結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].start |
9425.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].end |
9451.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[345].text |
他們今天兩個是先後到清水高中為什麼他們之前的行政廚藝一堆真的行政廚藝一堆你們講很多都講說你們行政廚藝做得很好為什麼行政廚藝變成養了兩個殺人犯出來呢這叫做你們的行政廚藝嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].start |
9453.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].end |
9480.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[346].text |
我不相信你們的行聖廚藝是這種方式的難道是應該這麼講你們只是讓他抄寫佛經、心經有用嗎如果有用的話那我們以後的小孩子通通叫他們抄寫佛經、心經每個都可以成仙成佛了是這樣子嗎他們抄寫沒有用嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].start |
9482.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].end |
9507.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[347].text |
然後你們只是就是所謂的行政處遇所謂的行政處遇是什麼我不知道我真的不知道我們違規我們闖紅燈違規都還要去上課上完課還要考試這些小朋友有沒有考試過你們有沒有跟他們上過法學的課程沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].start |
9509.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].end |
9533.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[348].text |
你跟我說你們司法接不住我要來接住嗎你認為我能夠怎麼接更何況今天老師的管理權沒有了我兒子風氣鼓掌就因為這樣子來上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].start |
9537.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].end |
9557.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[349].text |
你沒有給老師管理權我兒子在當你們的管理權這樣是對嗎你這樣子等於說那以後你也不要去射所謂的風紀鼓掌什麼通鼓掌通不用了嘛因為你老師都沒有管理權你那些學生有什麼管理權跟我說這個有什麼用你不賦予給老師管理權沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].start |
9570.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].end |
9593.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[350].text |
你們一直說不要標籤化不要標籤化這兩個小朋友一直在標籤化自己你們知道林生在那一個學期就至少超過50支警告嗎你們知不知道他們有50支警告以上缺礦課也好幾堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].start |
9597.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].end |
9625.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[351].text |
你們還要他們的受教權還要他們的人權我不知道你們在講什麼東西啊他們的受教權跟人權結果害了那麼多學生的受教權沒了安全也沒了為了這兩個小朋友其他的安全人身安全沒了他們也沒辦法受教了 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].start |
9626.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].end |
9655.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[352].text |
你知道他們那一年的會考所有同學的成績全部是落了一塌糊塗嗎不知道嘛他們接受多少輔導教育我所知道的五千人次以上就這個案子你們一直講他們的受教權人權老師連收書包什麼都沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].start |
9658.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].end |
9679.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[353].text |
你知道郭生是哪時候拿刀嗎監察院講的他在他前一年的9月還是7月就開始拿刀學校都不知道然後在我的二嬸最後一庭他自己承認他國一就拿刀了有人知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].start |
9684.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].end |
9689.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[354].text |
你這個學生你不標籤起來誰能夠防得住這個人你告訴我誰能夠防得住這個人他從國一就開始拿刀了耶我真的不知道其實我今天會來我是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].start |
9711.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].end |
9737.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[355].text |
真的校安問題大家要去好好解決不要再讓我跟我兒子一樣這樣子受害我三年來這快要三年了我每天都睡不好沒有人知道我的痛大家都說感同身受你們去受受看我不希望真的還有下一個人謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].start |
9742.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].end |
9746.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[356].text |
好 謝謝楊爸 楊爸請回座那主席麻煩請部長有請部長部長部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].start |
9757.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].end |
9785.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[357].text |
就是我覺得我是想要跟你很正面來討論這個法案大家都不要有陷入為主那也可以理解你希望說不要讓有一些學生標籤化可以理解您的用心但我覺得教育現場現在是要有所取捨就是說到底應該要多站在加害者這邊考量還是為了要維護整個教育秩序的考量教育秩序又包括要保護很多善良的好學生 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].start |
9786.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].end |
9803.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[358].text |
所以如果說我們今天想要保護更多的善良學員像誠如剛剛楊爸所講的班上只要有類似郭男這種乾哥乾姐一個在班上全班成績全部都都沒有辦法得到好的為什麼因為大家很害怕啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].start |
9804.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].end |
9833.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[359].text |
然後甚至生命也有威脅啊那你現在你的報告所提出來的所有的辦法完全沒有辦法解決這個問題嘛你看你們講了很多你說會根據學生輔導法加強輔導資源沒有用輔導就是沒有用啊然後另外你說會有辭輝針對就學適應問題辭輝班這些這些主要是針對錯學生啊也不是針對這些有高風險的學生啊然後其他還有就是像最後一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].start |
9834.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].end |
9862.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[360].text |
少年法庭裁定進入矯正教育這個是他已經犯法他已經殺人了那我想要解決的問題是什麼呢我想要解決的問題就是他有問題但他還沒有到殺人的時候我們不能夠等到他殺人才離開啊我們怎麼在他還沒有犯法之前評估他有極高的風險可能會做出傷害別人的事情的時候我們有個專家機制然後強制他轉學到一個教育部所設立一個專屬的學校或機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].start |
9864.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].end |
9877.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[361].text |
這個我們可以討論技術性的問題我們可以討論可是我覺得方向上你光是講說這個東西會標籤化我就覺得你沒有用很正面的態度來看待我想要解決這個問題的心 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].start |
9880.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].end |
9903.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[362].text |
先讓你簡單回應一下吧謝謝委員提醒 確實 我想加害者的權益 我們不應該他應該要對他的行為付出責任或者我們講 飛行少年到還沒當他沒有真正到這個致人生命上的一些安全危險的時候我們怎麼樣學校的系統有一個更好的一個處置的一個方案我想我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].start |
9904.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].end |
9931.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[363].text |
認真來思考這一個議題然後找委員所說的學術者專家包括教育現場我們來看怎麼樣來處理這一塊你現在就是沒有辦法因為部長我關心這個議題兩點多了嘛所以委員希望有一個中介的一個一個學校一個中介它可能是機構可能是學校或者可能是一個什麼樣的一個形態我想我們認真的思考其實我有思考到就是說我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].start |
9933.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].end |
9946.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[364].text |
最不要用他標籤的話就是讓他轉學到那個專屬學校那個學校也是可以正常上課嘛你也是上然後上他喜歡的課程啊然後你加強輔導啊你找很會就是一些教育團體啊應該他們都 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].start |
9947.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].end |
9971.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[365].text |
確實我們因為這一個班級學校的一個教育裡面他這個班級統一的一個教材統一的一個課程所以我們也感謝委員這個答應過去有所謂的實驗教育有許多的home schooling那對這些所謂的他可能學校的功課他找不到興趣也許讓他有一些更有另類的一些學習的課程的一個我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].start |
9972.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].end |
9988.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[366].text |
這本來是我們對高關懷學生設計的一個初衷但是這一個如果還沒有等於說沒有辦法看起來我們還有許多的校園的一些這個問題沒有辦法這個解決我們來思考是不是有一個另熱心的一個部長那個因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].start |
9991.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].end |
10008.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[367].text |
我們現在已經要進入秀其實我談這個議題談很多你應該也知道我很關心在總諮詢的時候也問過卓院長也跟你談過非常多次你們都沒有動所以我就直接立法了也謝謝趙偉排我們公聽會然後今天詢答接下來我們就可以直接處理法條了 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].start |
10009.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].end |
10030.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[368].text |
那我是希望我們處理法條的時候教育部可以有一個對岸來這邊你也可以提出你的看法出來也許你覺得我的不夠成熟但我想要解決問題你可以提一個你覺得更成熟的大家來集思廣益把問題解決不要就像楊爸講的他其實他很難過他兒子已經回不來了但他不希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].start |
10031.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].end |
10059.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[369].text |
就另外一個類似他兒子的狀況出現嘛是不要有下一個楊爸爸嘛所以楊爸爸今天願意來我也非常感謝他也讓部長知道現行的機制就是沒辦法解決楊同學遇害的問題我們不要再下一個楊同學部長可以嗎有好那部長那這個拜託再積極一點好謝謝部長謝謝然後再來喔部長那因為今天我們還有討論一個就是有關於出缺席不缺席的一個問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].start |
10061.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].end |
10078.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[370].text |
我看到上上禮拜教育部是有秀一個圖卡出來特別有強調說學生遲到旷課不是沒事因為之前是有傳出來就說遲到旷課不能記警告後來有宣傳大波教育部就出來說明了說沒有記警告但是不是沒事啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].start |
10079.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].end |
10107.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[371].text |
因為學生遲到旷課也是要為自己負責然後老師仍可依法管教學生這個我蠻建議部長如果你們部裡面有官員你可以建議他到學校去擔任一日導師試試看你們的這個方法到底管不管得了學生第一個說通知家長督導孩子改善這個很多老師講 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].start |
10108.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].end |
10135.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[372].text |
有些學生他就是習慣性的遲到或習慣性的缺課他每天早上都要去找那個家長家長也很難找那找到了家長也無所謂所以學生很常會這種缺課的問題有時候也是家長不在乎所以就一直叫老師去通知家長老師什麼事都不用做了只要通知家長就好所以這個是很不切實際然後再來就是提醒勸導提醒勸導兇一點學生就回過來投訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].start |
10137.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].end |
10163.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[373].text |
然後不然的話你要求他書面反省對 你可以要他書面反省他也可以告訴你我不想啊我不想要書面反省 怎麼樣然後適當的靜坐站立反省 一樣又回到剛剛講的現在只要多管教學生兇了一點點就很容易被投入到校事會議列入日常生活表現記錄老師拿一個小本本記錄下來也純記錄而已 達不到什麼實質的效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].start |
10164.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].end |
10184.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[374].text |
然後教育部講說這個不用學生自己遲到礦課就是要負責啊對不對這個每一個人要為自己的人生負責啊沒錯然後講說呢初學期會列入管理該科成績可能不及格可能影響畢業資格但是因為現在以前記過大家會比較緊張原因是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].start |
10186.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].end |
10207.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[375].text |
季過可能會留校查看可能會退學現在季過根本沒差10個大過20個大過都沒有差影響畢業資格我們可以看一下影響畢業資格其實也是蠻困難的為什麼呢因為你國中三年的總堂數大概是4200堂你要缺課超過1400堂 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].start |
10209.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].end |
10222.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[376].text |
你才拿不到畢業證書等於是你一週可以缺課超過十堂十堂以內都是合理的範圍這個拿到畢業證書門檻非常低那就算拿不到畢業證書就算缺課實在非常多拿不到畢業證書 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].start |
10223.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].end |
10248.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[377].text |
也可以有修業證書修業證書照樣可以升學所以我現在不是要來挑戰教育部講這個圖我只是說你們所提到提出來的所有的管教方法在一線是完全沒有用那完全沒有用會產生什麼狀況呢破窗效應只要班上有幾個學生是習慣性的缺課或遲到整個班就非常難帶老師會很難帶這個班 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].start |
10251.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].end |
10271.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[378].text |
所以部長可以去統計一下不同的縣市每個學生平均到了期末的時候因為缺課會預警你去調查一下全班大概幾分之幾的要被預警我的了解大概五分之一到十分之一的學生因為缺課遲到被預警 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].start |
10272.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].end |
10287.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[379].text |
所以這個是很嚴重的事這個不是說教育部PO一個圖表好像問題就解決了我真建議教育部的官員當一日導師試試看你去了解一下現在的教學現場是有多麼的難管理部長您了解這個狀況嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].start |
10290.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].end |
10305.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[380].text |
簡單回答一下我確實在這個現場裡面有多少比例學生缺礦課整班的這個我確實是比較陌生比較陌生我是跟你講的你們提出來的那些方法 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].start |
10306.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].end |
10330.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[381].text |
你們提出那些方法都沒有用而且很多老師還覺得哇塞現在教育部在教老師怎麼去管學生我想委員我必須要同意委員一定程度的看法就是社會在快速的一個發展那我們怎麼樣學校教育的管教辦法能夠以時俱進這我們來這一個來討論要提辦法出來啦部長好不好提辦法出來大概什麼時候可以提一個辦法出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].start |
10331.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].end |
10356.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[382].text |
我想我們還是跟這個家長老師學生討論然後真正做一個比較確合第一線上真正實際的一個情況來其實你可以看一下你的那個教育部的臉書那天PO那個圖表出來下面有兩三千則留言你可以去看他們的留言那都很多我看好像都是一線老師的回應那也是你輿情收集的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].start |
10356.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].end |
10370.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[383].text |
所以教育部不要說只會PO圖啦應該社群不是只是在澄清啦重點還是要收集輿情還有一個點就是最近大家在討論這個正向教育正向教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].start |
10372.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].end |
10400.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[384].text |
正向教育不是不好正向教育非常好非常好但是正向教育當初一開始的時候是針對家庭教育就是說希望爸媽在對小朋友教育的時候要用正向教育那如果放到學校一對多的時候你全部都用正向教育同樣的也會面臨到教學跟教育次序孰輕孰重的一個落差我就舉這個教育部的範例你看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].start |
10402.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].end |
10429.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[385].text |
不然看一下喔 右邊是您的範例他說有個同學大聲罵同學罵學校老師一開始不能夠跟那個學生說老師一開始不能夠制止他要用正向教育要怎麼說呢老師要去跟同學說關於羅廷偉同學你大聲罵同學罵學校這件事情老師可以了解你對同學學校很關心這是很好的以後你還是要繼續關心同學 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].start |
10431.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].end |
10456.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[386].text |
但是方法不對 你可能會傷害別人假設今天有一個同學他就是很惡意的亂罵同學罵三字經講得很難聽 霸凌同學然後結果老師碰到這一位同學一開始的時候還要說關於你霸凌同學這件事情很好表示你關心同學 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].start |
10457.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].end |
10468.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[387].text |
或他罵三字經問候人家媽媽關於你問候人家媽媽這件事情很好表示你關心人家媽媽這我覺得太不切實際了吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].start |
10469.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].end |
10494.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[388].text |
委員我想有許多的案例它確實教育的現場的困境就是你不能用一個案例去解釋所有的就是說範例它自己一個情形那你給大家的範例人家就會照做人家也很怕被投訴啊像你直接講說你直接三資金甚至有許多的這些我想它一定有不同的處理方式不是 部長當然這個因為你這個範例你是抽象的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].start |
10495.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].end |
10518.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[389].text |
當然他要含涉很多實際狀況但我講的也是罵同學的狀況所以你說把正向教育簡化成形式形式上的向上 正向這其實是形式上正向你反而忽略了教育的內涵而且你這個一開始的時候還肯定不當行為背後的想像動機這等於是有點主動幫做錯事的孩子找藉口 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].start |
10519.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].end |
10540.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[390].text |
另外我覺得一個重點教育秩序的維護你忽略被罵同學被影響者的感受其實你還是傷害了其他孩子的受教權所以其實我們現在講的很多東西都是環環相扣的就是我們現在所面臨到的現在的教育現場是非常複雜的跟以前已經很不一樣了造成教育現場的失序 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].start |
10541.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].end |
10563.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[391].text |
是時候針對我們這幾年教改很多學者專家所提出來他們認為很好的教育方式我覺得是時候好好的檢討一下正常教育沒有說一定不好可是你檢討他的適用的方式或者是檢討他的執行方式還有就是面對那些加害者同學的受教權是不是過度的保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].start |
10565.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].end |
10585.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[392].text |
然後另外就是老師的管教權是不是不斷的限縮導致於老師面對學生沒有工具造成現場的失序我覺得這個是一個整體的問題所以我今天因為有很多像校職會議我之前都跟部長討論過我今天都不浪費時間但是我覺得這個是整體的問題所以真心的很希望部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].start |
10587.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].end |
10613.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[393].text |
我們就面對問題把教育現場的思緒問題好好導正因為我覺得現在的問題真的是還蠻嚴重的部長簡單回應一下謝謝委員提醒我想與時俱進的一個不管老師的一個管教權專業管教權跟學生的許多行為的規範特別在國民教育裡面是非常重要我也完全同意委員所提的我們來 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].start |
10615.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].end |
10636.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[394].text |
來看怎麼樣來以實際性是可以盡快好不好大概您什麼時候大概會給我們一個大概的方向我們一方面給這個跟學者專家請教學者專家也跟團體包含學生過去確實有以學生為主學生的受教權不容挑戰但是我們怎麼樣去保護 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].start |
10637.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].end |
10658.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[395].text |
真正學習的學生或者有一些行為已經預約規範的我們怎麼樣把它導正我想這一個確實它是一個需要一些時間我們來把它想的想一個比較清楚的能夠歸納我們大家第一線上特別老師們的一些建議學生的建議因為一樣的學生今天因為有一位同學的干擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].start |
10659.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].end |
10683.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[396].text |
讓他們沒有辦法安心學習我想這些我們都一併把它納進來來研議看怎麼樣有一個更適當的以此進行的方法好 謝謝希望部長盡快了 謝謝好 謝謝 部長請回我們先休息五分鐘稍後有請葉仁芝委員代理召委 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].start |
11019.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].end |
11021.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[397].text |
好 現在繼續開會 請陳秀寶委員進行詢答謝謝主席 請部長 趙部長請鄭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].start |
11045.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].end |
11067.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[398].text |
委員好部長好部長一開始想先就關於考生權益的部分來跟部長您請教今年度的這個分科測驗因為遇到颱風所以延遲到今天明天就是13號14號來舉行那本期想就這次的應變措施跟部長您來討論大考中心是在7月7號的時候對外說明對外說明說 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].start |
11072.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].end |
11088.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[399].text |
分科測驗會延期7月8號的時候確定說延期到7月13到14那也說明說學生如果他住的地方啊有停班停課啊交通道路中斷交通咒詛的這個狀況呢可能他怕影響到今天明天前往考場 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].start |
11088.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].end |
11103.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[400].text |
所以他們可以提前依照實際的狀況提前前往考區所在的這個地方所在地準備如果衍生出了住宿或交通費用都可以來申請補助那部長這有時候不是這個衍生費用的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].start |
11105.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].end |
11127.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[401].text |
這一次的颱風其實影響最嚴重的時間就是週末就是原本的考試時間11到12那大考中心叫考生在風災雨災最嚴重的11到12離開他的住所那前往考試的地方做準備這個是不是在公布的我們所實施的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].start |
11129.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].end |
11140.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[402].text |
這個時候沒有去考慮到學生他就是因為他可能從他住的地方到考試的地方不方便那你還大考中期還建議他說是在風災雨災最嚴重的時候最厲害的時候離開再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].start |
11143.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].end |
11166.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[403].text |
我們這次的颱風我們延遲了就是往後延了兩天就是六日變成一二但是我們各考場如果說它有建築物受損或是有積水的情況也許在星期一它還沒有把考場恢復好那颱風過後其實我們中南部經常有所謂的紅臺部就是我西南氣流造成了這個好大雨的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].start |
11167.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].end |
11178.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[404].text |
那還有偏遠地區他們可能在這個時候他們的交通可能還沒有恢復那大考中心當初在做延期的決定的時候有沒有去考慮到這些狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].start |
11181.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].end |
11205.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[405].text |
謝謝委員其實委員所關心的大考中心事實上我必須要為他們說他們大考中心或者這個招聯會事實上都有納進考慮委員剛才所關心的譬如說他不一定是星期六日才出來他可能因為我們星期四等於七月七月八號的時候是星期四嘛這時候一宣布的時候有一些考慮到 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].start |
11206.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].end |
11235.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[406].text |
有的可能7月9號的時候就出來了因為像我昨天還特別在高雄兩個考區我都特別走了一趟還有我們這一個諸市長也在台北地區我們也看到地方政府縣市首長也有去關心考區就說我們昨天下午到考生下午4點要能夠看考場我們確定所有的考場考區全部都已經準備完畢委員所關心的那些在 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].start |
11235.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].end |
11261.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[407].text |
包含在昨天還有一些山區的這些這一個停止上班上課的我們都考區都足以打電話像以高雄六龜他是停止上班上課也是三位我們全部都打過電話只有已經全部到市區來準備要住宿準備要考試只有一個在路上所以感謝委員的關心在這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].start |
11263.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].end |
11277.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[408].text |
招聯會事實上在過去也有處理過這個延後考試所以在整個事務跟所有的準備我想他們是相當程度的一個非常的一個熟悉也能夠掌握那利用這個機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].start |
11278.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].end |
11303.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[409].text |
特別感謝全國因應現在這兩天考試的所有的事務工作人員考區所有的這些這個夥伴也謝謝他們因為能夠考量這個氣候的關係包含考生我們在網路上也看到考生也覺得無奈因為甚至有的要已經規劃這兩天就要出國了那他們也就可以理解因為氣候上的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].start |
11305.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].end |
11332.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[410].text |
謝謝部長您的說明喔這個部分呢我是希望雙方教育部跟大考中心呢我們就這一次的這個因為颱風遇到颱風氣候的影響來延期考試的這個整個的狀況呢我們來做一個參考來嚴寧喔就是說我們是不是明確的來訂定一個延期的辦法來供考生來參考譬如說我們在考試前多久如果有颱風來襲那考試我們就會順延多久我們訂個標準出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].start |
11333.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].end |
11354.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[411].text |
那學生比較有能夠掌握那學生那家長跟老師也比較不會焦慮他們可以提早因應喔所以我這邊有建議就是說我們能夠明確的規範考試延期的條件例如說遇到怎樣的等級的颱風或是說雨量那我們來做一個分級的這個機制再來就是如果說有這個考場 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].start |
11354.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].end |
11379.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[412].text |
可能有會遇到我剛講的建築物有一些損害或者是淹水的部分我們應該考量讓考場有時間有這個彈性來恢復考場的這個安全加上說我們南部有時候會遇到這樣的狀況其實這次的八威颱風其實剛開始我們覺得他會很嚴重所幸其實雖然有淹水的地方有些攤房的地方但是沒有像 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].start |
11380.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].end |
11399.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[413].text |
之前幾次的颱風造成那麼大的損傷所以這次的考生算是說如果我們這麼短的時間延期也是讓他們可以順利的完成考試但是會希望說針對不同的地理特性我們是不是在這個延後考試的這個時間考量上也有一個機制來參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].start |
11400.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].end |
11422.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[414].text |
那加上剛剛部長您說就只有一位考生就是因為這個交通的狀況有點狀況那也希望說我們這個偏遠的考生的權益保障我們有思考到剛才您說的就因為我們有提供住宿跟交通的這個補助但是如果說有的是比較特殊的是不是有一些專案可以來協助這些偏遠地區的考生 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].start |
11423.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].end |
11449.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[415].text |
所以我想謝謝委員再次提醒確實整個招聯會大考中心委員所提的這些都是他們在因應這一個所謂的自然災害所造成的許多的事但是希望說我這樣提議是希望說以後可以更明確我們事先訂出一個SOP讓考生家長老師在提前知道說可能會遇到颱風的時候我們就心裡有個底子說大概會做一個怎樣的延期的規劃好嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].start |
11451.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].end |
11479.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[416].text |
好 這個我們請司可以研議好 那如果有相關的進度是一份報告給我辦公室好 謝謝接下來我想請教部長近期這個問題油瓶的事件引發社會的關切跟家長對於校園食品安全的這個高度的關切那首先對於學校校園營養午餐有使用到問題油瓶本席真的是覺得非常的震驚也覺得是遺憾的但是在這個時候我還是要肯定我們校園食材登錄平台的功能 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].start |
11480.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].end |
11497.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[417].text |
就是因為有登錄我們校園公餐的訊息才能夠很及時的提供這個追蹤查詢那教育部也很快的有統計出來說有總共有20個縣市623所的學校以及258所的幼兒園有使用到或是疑似使用到問題油品 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].start |
11499.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].end |
11518.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[418].text |
當然有疑慮有問題我們就趕快下架及停用但是後續我們要如何來守護校園的食安而且現在雖然是暑假但是公幼已經開始暑期的加託服務表示說也是開始公餐的所以未來的這個機制是很重要那首先我在這邊要建議說 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].start |
11519.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].end |
11534.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[419].text |
降低單一油品長期集中使用帶來的潛在風險喔是不是建議教育部這邊能夠建立彈性採購的機制我們跟地方業者地方的政府及業者的研議我們是不是定期那有時三個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].start |
11535.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].end |
11551.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[420].text |
還是說半年至少三個月或半年我們更換營養午餐用有種類的可行性我們透過就是定期的輪替比較有效的這個來分散降低食安這個風險不要固定用同一種油同一種油品其實呢針對近期引發的這個這個有爭議的進口的這個巴西的大豆 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].start |
11557.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].end |
11585.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[421].text |
那在相關主管機關的新規範出爐一律沒有完全消除之前是建議校園營養午餐應該採取預防性的措施我們在過渡期間我們是不是避免使用大豆油我們來改採用其他有國家認證來源明確而且沒有爭議的烹調油品用比較高的規格我們來守護校園的這個食安呢大臣同意部長還是署長你要回答這個可能可以 這個可能要再提一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].start |
11588.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].end |
11616.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[422].text |
謝謝委員的這個指正彈性用油這個當然我們可以來跟這個地方來討論就是說降低它可能單一的一些風險只要長期使用它可能累積的麻煩就傷害可能很大至於這一個它是安全的如果我們是不是要全面禁用我想這個可能還得要斟酌因為我們要確保的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].start |
11618.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].end |
11638.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[423].text |
這一個違法規定的它不應該在學校園裡面出現但是合法的廠商我們好像這一個部分可能我們還是要等於要比較相對要慎重因為是因為現在的這個期間其實家長對於這個食安的疑慮會希望說是不是我們有更積極 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].start |
11639.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].end |
11662.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[424].text |
更確實的一些措施我相信在地方政府跟學校的一個態度他們一定是跟委員所提的是一樣的一定會用更謹慎的態度來看待這個油品的一個使用那剛才委員有提的已經有這個產生問題的在餘力沒有消除前學校一定是不可能再讓它進來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].start |
11662.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].end |
11676.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[425].text |
好 謝部長我還是要再提醒目前很多公立的幼兒園已經展開這個暑期的加託服務而且是開始公餐的但是校園食材登錄平台好像沒有把暑期飲食納入範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].start |
11678.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].end |
11682.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[426].text |
所以這個部分是不是請教育部這邊清查如果這一步我們馬上來這個是在網路上我們馬上可以來提醒地方等於說延拖這個暑假延拖也應該要按照規定來對 所以說希望把整個食安的控管做得更周延 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].start |
11694.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].end |
11720.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[427].text |
好 那接下來我想請教一下部長近年我們的校園暴力衝突案件其實已經累積超過了三萬件同時學生的自傷通報案件也是創下歷史新高這些很沉重的數據其實都在跟我們發出警訊我們現在我們的孩子承受著前所未有的悉尼的壓力所以校園的輔導需求其實是迫在眉睫但是當孩子 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].start |
11721.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].end |
11730.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[428].text |
發出求救訊號的時候我們校園的第一道防線專門輔導教師是面臨的人力吃緊以及輔導量能荒 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].start |
11732.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].end |
11757.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[429].text |
根據基層的反應目前的專輔教師他不僅是要面對日益龐大且複雜的個案量還常常被指派去處理繁重的非核心行政事務像是各種的政歷宣導成果或是跟諮商無關的跨局處的評鑑或是繁瑣的行政報表當這些繁雜的雜務奪走老師大部分的時間跟精力他們還有多少時間可以好好的坐下來傾聽孩子們說話 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].start |
11759.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].end |
11774.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[430].text |
其實我們都知道說孩子是我們國家的未來我們不希望在校園裡面的心靈捕手自己都先過勞而倒了所以在這邊我要很誠懇的建議請教育部我們要積極的嚴育推動專輔教師行政減量並且重新檢視明確規範他的工作職長務必要精簡整備那些非輔導專業的行政負擔讓專業回歸專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].start |
11785.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].end |
11813.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[431].text |
因為只有降低專輔教師這些額外的工作量才可以讓他們很專心的從事心理輔導來能夠真正的接觸每一個需要被接觸的孩子部長請說是的我想陳委員所提的我們去年當然通過了學生輔導法本來就是希望有更多的專業老師的心理輔導老師能夠來協助我們各階段教育的這些學生那我想讓他能夠發揮專業減少一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].start |
11817.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].end |
11822.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[432].text |
这个不相干的行政活动我不要协助他们去排除不是他们专业以外的工作落在他们身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].start |
11824.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].end |
11850.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[433].text |
所以這個我們教育部這邊可以為他們是我想這個本來就是當時學生輔導法設置的一個目的我想我們也會跟地方來提醒學校一定要讓專業的新輔導師能夠那是不是請教育部這邊來協助來了解現在對於這些專輔教師他們本身的工作他們所背負的相關的如果不屬於自己的專業範疇的是不是可以協助他們來排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].start |
11851.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].end |
11875.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[434].text |
是 我想我們跟地方 假設我們來全面來瞭解到底現在新湖老師他要兼辦什麼樣的行政工作那我們再來跟地方看怎麼樣來協助讓他這個回到一個專業的一個這個本質那請教育部這邊把你們所瞭解的目前的狀況跟你們預計如何來協助也一份報告給我辦公室好嗎可以好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].start |
11882.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].end |
11899.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[435].text |
接下來請郭育晴委員進行詢答謝謝主席有請部長有請鄭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].start |
11911.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].end |
11930.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[436].text |
最近中聯油脂的一個事件讓很多家長非常擔心不過我們先來了解這個整個所有的事件時間軸從4月開始中聯的油品出廠到5月13號南橋自行檢出超標但沒有依法通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].start |
11931.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].end |
11948.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[437].text |
那他只有通知中聯中聯又自行復檢但是他們開會仍然還是拖延那這段時間其實都還沒有曝光到了6月15號已經被地方衛生局給查獲那中聯跟這個福壽還有福茂 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].start |
11948.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].end |
11970.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[438].text |
台中還有泰山在6月15號開會這表示他們其實早已知情到最後6月30號才正式通報這整整延誤的時間大概是48天雖然現在是正年暑假但是其實有更多的家長其實是擔心在4月一直到6月底 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].start |
11971.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].end |
11989.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[439].text |
這段時間我的孩子到底有沒有吃進這些有問題的一些油品那當然這個部分教育部最近的清查最新的資料那全國已經有861所的學校那還有334所的這個幼兒園也曾經用到了這個問題的油品 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].start |
11991.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].end |
12002.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[440].text |
那我想交易部這部的第一時間已經有要求要預防性的一個下架那當然對於這個迅速的應變還是要給予肯定但我現在想要談的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].start |
12004.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].end |
12025.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[441].text |
教育部我們現在要做的是事件發生之後的處理還是事件發生前的預防我想發生前的預防可能要重於事件發生之後的一個處理那如果每一次都是食藥署公佈名單然後我們教育部再開始比對那這代表我們的孩子可能早就已經吃下肚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].start |
12025.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].end |
12053.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[442].text |
那我想在這邊我請教一下部長目前這個食藥署公布這些問題批號之後那教育部有沒有透過地方政府學校在利用所謂的這個校園食材登錄的平台一筆一筆的來做比對那是已經做到系統化的比對嗎還是目前還在人工的比對因為只要是人工的比對就可能會發現所謂的時間差因為今天可能是油品明天可能是牛奶 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].start |
12053.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].end |
12063.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[443].text |
後天可能是淡製品或者是農藥殘留那這個部分我們是每一次都要重新的人工清查教育部認為這樣子的效率足夠嗎請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].start |
12065.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].end |
12094.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[444].text |
我想這個登錄平台本來就是希望能夠掌握所有的信息每天的學生的營養午餐的一個食材所以我們在7月1號一有這樣一個消息的時候馬上能夠從這個登錄平台裡面就看到有1380所學校他是用這個中聯所這個用的這個三個這個廠商所以我們才進一步這個請這個地方教育局處 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].start |
12096.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].end |
12110.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[445].text |
所以我們是針對平台當中的每一筆在逐一在做所以我們已經有做到系統自動的一個比對了嗎這是我的問題有做到系統嗎還是目前還是用人工 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].start |
12111.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].end |
12128.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[446].text |
還是人工清查我們是一天到四家我們直接用這些關鍵字以及相關油品15種到後來18種直接用數位化就可以撈取學校那學校撈出來之後直接去核對它的批次這個部分是隨機嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].start |
12130.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].end |
12151.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[447].text |
隨機嗎 還是不是 這個是全面 不是隨機那我再問一下剛剛署長講的因為現在我們有很多的學校的午餐其實是供應商自行登錄是供應商自行登錄兩種如果是學校自辦的話學校老師或相關人員如果是外定團善或是公辦民營那個是委託的 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].start |
12152.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].end |
12170.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[448].text |
好 那我問一下教育部這邊我們有沒有要求要多久之內一定要完成登錄是一天 一個小時 幾個小時還是一天 還是三天那如果廠商延遲登錄的話我們中央這邊有沒有辦法在第一時間知道哪一些學校可能用到了所謂的問題的產品 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].start |
12171.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].end |
12193.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[449].text |
這個部分剛剛委員有兩個問題登錄的時間是當日如果延遲我們有相關的爬蟲機制會去抓到哪些學校我們會去要求跟警示他所以我們有一套爬蟲機制會去做處理包含縣市的中毒新聞我們都全天候24小時爬蟲都在抓好 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].start |
12194.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].end |
12214.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[450].text |
為什麼我要特別這樣子強調這件事情因為其實如果沒有這樣子的一個即時去登錄或者是我們沒有發現他延遲登錄的一個問題中間就可能會產生所謂的空窗就像我剛剛講的如果這個延遲的這個時間這個空窗的時間我的孩子可能都已經吃下肚了 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].start |
12215.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].end |
12243.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[451].text |
这是我要点出的一个问题那我再请问一下我们的教育部跟食药署还有农业部这边有没有建立及时的串接还是我们仍然是仰赖所谓的不管是公文也好Email也好人工的通知如果今天比方说我举例如果今天我们的食药署它公布了在凌晨的时候是公布了问题的批号请问教育部这边多久可以直接通知学校一个小时半天还是要一整天 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].start |
12245.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].end |
12249.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[452].text |
以这次为例大概我们半小时就可以捞出来 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].start |
12250.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].end |
12277.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[453].text |
捞出来是一回事通知学校有可能这样子的一个问题又是另外一件事情我问的是通知学校这件事情通知学校我们用各种管道是一下就可以大概在半天之内可以全国通知完毕半天之内就可以全国通知完毕甚至可以更早看它使用的量或是品名我为什么要特别提这件事情的重要性第一因为这次的油品的影响层面很广 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].start |
12278.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].end |
12304.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[454].text |
那剛剛其實有委員提到本來是從600多間學校其實現在我們教育部已經更新到800多間的學校了對不對所以這個學校的數量有可能還在增加當中是嗎是的只要衛福部一公佈原來譬如說230後來到401到440一公佈我們馬上就用我們的這個系統馬上去抓取好從最早到現在我們看到的應該是861間的學校這個部分大概經過了幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].start |
12308.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].end |
12323.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[455].text |
可以告訴我嗎那個是在7月最後一次的因為上個禮拜颱風假之前我們收到的還是600多對 我們大概在7月10號這個報告在撰寫的時候就是最後一次440的那個品名 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].start |
12324.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].end |
12346.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[456].text |
為什麼我要特別提到這件事情剛剛我已經說了其實真的完全完成所謂的這個教學食材登錄的平台跟食藥署的即時的通知的這個串接這一點我們請教育部一定要掌握一定要注意第二個只要中央公告了所謂的問題的批號我們的系統一定要馬上就警示學校 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].start |
12346.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].end |
12372.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[457].text |
那還好現在因為在暑假的期間再來第三但是剛剛其實秀寶委員有特別提到了有些幼兒園其實他們現在還在上課當中所以這個部分也麻煩我們的教育部這個部分一定要注意再來我們要建立學校校園高風險供應商的預警的名單不是只有出了事才停用這個部分我們有沒有辦法可以建立及時的管理風險的一個機制這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].start |
12375.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].end |
12399.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[458].text |
公益商的部分跟委員報告那這一次從來源面那衛福部也有一個整體的檢討那剛剛有一個機制就是它原來屬於自主檢驗的可能未來的自主檢驗會做一些處理那我們會跟著這些自主檢驗大廠商的部分我們都會建議學校我們有一個機制現在也跟廠商相關的業者在商量 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].start |
12400.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].end |
12427.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[459].text |
如果在我们教育界如果公布一次我们现在再研议它就永远不再被用了好 多久会出来这个机制这个可能在卫福部最新的一些机制之后整体的源头面处理完之后目前已经在跟团散厂商食材供应业者去研处我们现在希望是源头面更要管控的紧实的同时我们也有一种保障的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].start |
12427.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].end |
12444.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[460].text |
就是他敢用他以後就完全沒有機會在韓灣的學校裡面運用這個可能我們再配合衛福部的整個檢討一個月內一個月內 好 謝謝好 謝謝署長的說明好 那第二個我請教一下部長就是關於所謂的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].start |
12446.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].end |
12462.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[461].text |
特教助理員的部分那我想行政院其實去年的年底我們特別調高了這個高中小學導師的職務加給跟終點費用那特教的加給去年6月核定但是延宕到今年的2月才生效 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].start |
12464.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].end |
12484.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[462].text |
對 才生效 那近期我們更是正式的核定可以修正回溯到9月但是關於特教助理員其實分為兩類喔那這個也是我一直以來一直在關心的喔那第一類其實是所謂的特教學生助理員第二類是特教教師助理員 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].start |
12484.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].end |
12503.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[463].text |
但是先前我們的調心跟回溯目前我們看到了只有特教學生助理員的部分特教教師助理員卻完全被排除在外那我想請教一下部長同樣都是特教助理員請問兩位是不是都在特教班服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].start |
12503.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].end |
12514.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[464].text |
是不是每天也都在陪伴所謂的特殊需求的學生是不是也要協助老師來處理學校的教學安全的照顧 生活的輔導關於這兩類的特教處理員這邊請教部長 是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].start |
12521.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].end |
12546.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[465].text |
是這有一些在追訴之後還有一些可能會被關心的課題這其實部長都非常關心一直要我們跟委員這邊有相關團體或是個別的那種身份的老師持續研議能夠給最多的照顧我們都跟地方政府一起來處理例如這一次追訴部長跟地方政府我們也一起來協助我們也有出相關的經費好 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].start |
12548.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].end |
12569.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[466].text |
我要提的是剛剛同樣都在特教的教學現場其實不應該有這種所謂的同工卻不同酬的差別待遇有聽懂我的意思那當然其實可能教育部這邊會反映給我說沒辦法因為其實這個是兩個不同的法源一個就是特教學生助理員他們是中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].start |
12570.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].end |
12598.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[467].text |
國教署這邊4年30億這樣子的一個特殊的一個專案補助對不對另外一個部分是法源不同所以因為兩者的法源不同所以才會造成現在有的人有有的人卻沒有辦法被回溯這個部分其實我們還是要繼續的支持繼續的加油請問一下接著下來我們有沒有可能可以把這一塊給補足不要讓他們在現場有所謂的 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].start |
12600.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].end |
12625.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[468].text |
那種落差啦心理上的一個落差啦可以嗎委員我們這一次處理的是特教職務加急催促到去年那委員現在提到的可能現在我們大概4年有1600位的這些特教助理員那因為是我們一起來跟縣市努力的也是我們創製出來的這個我們會跟地方政府那部長剛才講 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].start |
12625.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].end |
12642.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[469].text |
好好的演繹當然這個部分因為是跟各縣市的他們的預算的編列是有關啦但是問題是雖然兩者互不隸屬但是問題是兩者跟這些人都在教育的現場所以我們一個月內會跟地方政府一起來演習再回報委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].start |
12643.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].end |
12658.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[470].text |
我再次的強調我想就算是法源不同也不代表這個待遇就得要這樣子不公平啦我想這個法規是人定的制度也是教育部這邊可以設計的所以我們希望就算在這個部分我們把 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].start |
12658.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].end |
12681.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[471].text |
特教教師助理員也納入我們關心的對象我們一直不斷的在強調其實現在我們要留住人才但問題是在同工卻不同酬這種不公平的待遇的狀況之下其實還是留不住人這是最大的一個問題那犧牲的可能就是需要被幫助的這些特教生的孩子好 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].start |
12682.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].end |
12706.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[472].text |
那我再占用一點點的時間那不好意思請問一下就是關於基隆幼兒園集體虐童案的一個事件我想這個是讓人覺得非常觸目驚心的一個案例那已知受害的這個學生已經超過20名短短的9天當中我們從監視器的畫面當中可以看到超過500段的施虐的一個片段 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].start |
12706.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].end |
12731.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[473].text |
那剛開始呢這個基隆市政府他最初只有裁罰兩名的教保員各40萬還有所有的要停招一年負責人僅罰了6萬直到社會輿論嘩然還有家長的震怒市府才7月8號的時候改口說要廢照那將負責人的罰款提高到84萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].start |
12732.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].end |
12757.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[474].text |
我想在這裡問一下根據我們中央教保服務人員條例情節重大者本來就可以直接廢照而不是等到輿論發酵之後這個部分我想請教一下這個教育部有沒有掌握基隆市教育處他們在調查的過程當中到底是對法規的理解不足還是處置慢半拍這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].start |
12759.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].end |
12773.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[475].text |
謝謝委員這一個指針因為確實我們在這個6月28號這些事件出現以後我們事實上國教署就很快速的這個新聞要這個基隆市要這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].start |
12775.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].end |
12799.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[476].text |
調查這個依法一定要這個把它查處清楚然後我們目前這整個幼兒園的一個小孩子會員以後他總共有58位這個幼兒園也大概已經都基隆市政府已經都協助這個安置轉介到其他的幼兒園然後目前只有剩下一位還沒有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].start |
12800.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].end |
12818.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[477].text |
这个团建安置这个是后续的安置的部分后续的处理的部分跟委员报告国家署都与此在掌握中那当然这个事后整个事件告一个段落到底我们在整个流程里面我们未来会检视它整个的这个处理的过程 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].start |
12818.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].end |
12845.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[478].text |
我們的輸入在哪裡因為我想教育部還是要承擔起中央督導地方的一個責任那另外其實包含這個基隆市議長其實他也特別提到了雖然有所謂的兒少處但兒少處跟教育處的全責不分跌床駕屋也導致所謂的這個事前的內控失靈市中不斷的推諉這個部分請問部長我們有解方嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].start |
12847.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].end |
12874.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[479].text |
我們如何真實的來指導地方的本來復工還是要合作的那怎麼樣有這樣一個漢格這一個落差我想我們都會一併來這個檢討我想我們要的不是我們要的不是所謂的這個縣市首長的眼淚啦我們不是只有他看了影片之後的掉眼淚而已我們要的是真正有能力能夠預防而且來處理所謂的兒虐的一個教學的前線的 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].start |
12876.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].end |
12902.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[480].text |
本來就是一個利益良善希望有更多的專業我想我們教育部在這個部分要拿出更堅定而且要拿出更強硬的督導的一個作為這個部分可以承諾我嗎當然好 謝謝以上謝謝委員執政請不短回座接下來請蔡春籌委員進行詢答 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].start |
12913.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].end |
12917.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[481].text |
主席好有請部長有請部長委員好部長好剛剛有很多委員都是針對近來燃燒獨有的一個問題跟部長做一個交流我仍然還是要在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].start |
12941.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].end |
12969.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[482].text |
再跟部長再一次一個強調這個是非常嚴重的一個問題對於校園來說這是一個非常嚴重的問題因為教育部呢他是根據衛福部那個食藥署7日公布了一個新增的一個有360家受到影響的業者還有232項的一個產品資訊之後呢運用在校園的一個食材登錄以後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].start |
12970.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].end |
12998.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[483].text |
竟然一市有623所的一个学校还有258所的幼儿园那我要请问部长在提供各地方政府交易局处理后续最终的情况什么时候能够把这个后续在整个独有在学校发酵这个过程里面的报告这个相关的报告什么时候会出来 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].start |
13005.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].end |
13027.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[484].text |
跟委員報告事件一出生依發線的時候我們7月1號就已經前面透過這一個登錄平台就已經找到學校用這三家的這個油然後進一步我們跟地方趕快的就去清查那一切品項所以7月1號國教署已經跟地方已經在平台裡面我們就掌握了所有的狀況那隨著剛才委員說 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].start |
13030.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].end |
13053.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[485].text |
提了這個7月7號是這個食藥署裡面第二波公布的這個232的品項我們馬上又這個根據新的一些證據又全面請地方下架那接著後面再有一個第三波的一個公布我們事實上是完全快速的反映而且跟地方合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].start |
13054.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].end |
13068.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[486].text |
快速的在學校裡面的營養午餐裡面全面下架有問題的這些油品那從7月1號支出的一個比對一直到7月7號這個中間這個數據呢相差很大那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].start |
13074.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].end |
13098.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[487].text |
這個就讓人家就非常的一個擔心那在這裡呢我還要剛剛那個有委員有提到我這裡有講到258首的幼兒園那幼兒園目前都還是在上課當中那這個食安的問題呢本黨台灣民眾黨對這個幼兒非常的一個注重所以我們一直認為幼兒園必須納入營養午餐的一個專環裡面來做一個保護就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].start |
13103.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].end |
13116.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[488].text |
幼兒所必須是教育部一定要守重要來保護的那目前呢幼兒園都還是在三課當中那在這個部分呢教育部要掌握多少他說幼兒園現在三課暑假延拖的幼兒園那現在是達到了94%的原所是 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].start |
13133.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].end |
13160.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[489].text |
那這些食物他們目前營養午餐的這些食物呢都有掌握住是安全的嗎現在暑假的部分幼兒園的部分大概有3032元那國中小高中大概有40個學校暑假期間他們有一些活動或是有些課會供應那這個部分都是有掌握住也要掌握是是 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].start |
13163.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].end |
13176.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[490].text |
因為這個衛福部我們從這裡可以看出衛福部在執行上是很大的一個失利執行力是讓人家非常擔心的所以剛剛衛福部也有說從這個報告裡面也有講到致癌的一個致癌友 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].start |
13184.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].end |
13201.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[491].text |
從一千三百公噸暴增到兩千六百噸那麼現在剛剛衛福部的次長還有說疫防性下降可能會達到兩萬七千噸所以我們還是希望我們的交易部對於校園的一個使安一定是要來 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].start |
13202.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].end |
13217.233 |
| transcript.whisperx[492].text |
掌控能夠讓我們的學生讓我們的家長都能夠都能夠安心所以呢教育部不要一直喊口號就是說一定要確保學生的安心安心就學家長安心我們沒有喊口號我們是實際的去落實你們的報告裡面都有一再的這樣的寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].start |
13223.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].end |
13239.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[493].text |
那當然做到最好那我們就是在叮嚀交易部我也要跟你們報告當事件發生以後國教署跟地方的一個合作我想應該可以肯定做這樣的一個也讓委員知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].start |
13240.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].end |
13266.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[494].text |
那因為我們目前的學生有兩百多萬人嘛那因為現在還好就是是暑假期間如果今天不是在暑假期間啊是在課堂當中那請問一下教育部你們有沒有什麼危機處理的一個先想一下萬一這個很僥倖的很幸運的這個使友這個獨友呢剛好是在暑假期間如果是在課堂當中呢那教育部你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].start |
13267.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].end |
13292.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[495].text |
當然一發現馬上所有的油品我們一定會第一個時間全部下架那團散這裡邊我們事實上我相信就團散來講他們也不願意他們提供的一個菜這個油品是不健康不安全的我想這都是一個我們在從這個中央跟地方還有許多的企業裡面跟團散上都是有一個非常嚴謹的一個程序跟訂定 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].start |
13293.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].end |
13307.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[496].text |
我們希望能夠保持這樣的一個默契那在這裡我還是要提醒教育部就是說教育部不要跟著衛福部的一個滾動式這樣走教育部應該要化被動為主動就是在效應的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].start |
13309.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].end |
13320.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[497].text |
甚至都可以超前那個衛福部來對於學校的這樣的一個食安的一個問題能夠超前來做一個處理在這裡呢還是要跟教育部當然我們是肯定剛剛我們部長還有國教署署長都有對於學校的一些處置的一個方式都有做及時的一個處置在這裡呢我也是做肯定但是呢我們還是要提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].start |
13336.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].end |
13344.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[498].text |
我們部長在學校的食安的問題呢我們都是我們重中之重要嚴謹的去處理的一個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].start |
13349.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].end |
13354.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[499].text |
最後在6月29號的時候 北溪曾經對於極端氣候對於臧料次長提出營養午餐因為氣候的關係 營養午餐的一個食材 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].start |
13367.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].end |
13395.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[500].text |
要如何來保障所以我們希望教育部能夠看見地方的災情然後關心全國協同的一個營養健康所以尤其這一次發生全國的一個重大食安的事件雖然目前我剛剛講的是暑假期間還好那麼我們希望教育部能夠提出一個危機處理的一個方案那不管是在氣候的變遷或者是食安的問題都有馬上有一套 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].start |
13395.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].end |
13416.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[501].text |
一個危機處理的方式只要碰到問題都能夠馬上來解決問題我覺得這個是我們必須要監督教育部來做的確實我們怎麼去落實定期跟不定期這一個生產線上源頭上的一個管控我想雖然不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].start |
13417.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].end |
13441.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[502].text |
教育部的一個全責但是我想我們這個衛福部他們也非常清楚在這一個部分怎麼樣去跟地方的這個產業能夠有一個更強的預防的一個機制我想我們跨部會一定是合作的需要的時候我們一定也會來協助看怎麼樣大家來做好這個食安的校園這個營養午餐的一個安全的管控 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].start |
13442.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].end |
13467.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[503].text |
從這個事件來看可以看出全台灣所有的民眾大概都有吃到獨有的食品更何況是我們的學生應該都逃不過的那麼我們希望就是類似這樣的我們要做一個危機處理最後我還是要提醒今天教育部還有衛福部更有行政院食品的安全辦公室等 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].start |
13467.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].end |
13493.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[504].text |
跨部會都有出席那麼本行中心的期望行政院教育部還有相關部會尤其是衛福部能夠切身的感受到食安的危機關心並保障全國的一個校園食安還有那個血統的一個營養健康這個是我對教育部的一個期待那下面這一個問題我們就回到我們那個學校的一個教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].start |
13494.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].end |
13511.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[505].text |
我想今天這樣的一個針對學校的一個學生出席還有教師的一個停病的一個之前的一個辦法提出一些跟教育部做一個交流那我想今天這一個有關於校園的這樣問題我把它定調為說108課綱做一個評鑑跟檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].start |
13523.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].end |
13549.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[506].text |
剛剛有很多委員針對家長提告一個老師因為教學生要求他7點半要來學校這個部分很多委員都有跟部長做一個交流在這裡我只是要再跟部長交流一下就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].start |
13551.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].end |
13579.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[507].text |
連台中地議院的法官都說守時是為一般人應該具備的一個基本的一個品格跟教養那在這裡我要跟部長分享就是目前暑假期間我們大家都在封國際賽國際的一個足球賽那在那個挪威挪威的一個進球機器這個哈蘭德他這個傑出了一個足球選手 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].start |
13580.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].end |
13596.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[508].text |
他就說了他在11歲到15歲的這個啟蒙的一個足球教練這個教練叫做拜恩赫森他說他對於球隊他只有三個要求第一就是要準時第二就是要盡全力第三要守規矩 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].start |
13598.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].end |
13616.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[509].text |
三個這樣的一個要求對於這個選手他說他終身受用那在這裡我就是要跟那個部長分享這個不就是學校最基本要求我們學生應該有的一個品格教育嗎還有我要跟部長分享就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].start |
13617.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].end |
13644.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[510].text |
之前我辦一個公聽會有很多老師跟校長都說目前學校最乖最守秩序的就是運動校隊那為什麼會是運動校隊一個運動校隊他要有成就他就是要從他的一個品格教育來教取不是教技術技術是其次只要你一些生活態度學習精神只要達到教練一定的一個要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].start |
13645.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].end |
13668.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[511].text |
那麼這個學生一定會有成就所以我們是要借用這樣的一個借鏡運動選手的一個嚴格的信念嚴格的信念可以得到翻轉他一個人生所以在這裡我要跟部長我們教育不能再鬆綁了因為我們教育鬆綁了就會造成很多現在目前學校的一個問題會這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].start |
13673.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].end |
13687.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[512].text |
部長你對於人格品格教育啊我也在上次在執行張耀次長的時候我一直在強調學校的學生的品德教育一定要加強我要請那個部長你表示一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].start |
13688.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].end |
13707.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[513].text |
我想我的這個基本上我們的態度是一致的學生在從小裡面養成良好的一個品格行為規範我想那是一個國民教育每一個國民裡面我們期待的一個教育的目標那怎麼樣有一個剛才委員特別提到了這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].start |
13708.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].end |
13723.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[514].text |
用挪威的这个准时尽全力然后守规矩我想那也都是我们在这一个国民教育里边一个很基本的一个对人才培育上的一个教育的一个方式所以我们也非常感谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].start |
13724.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].end |
13742.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[515].text |
台中地縣對這一個不當的控訴本來老師就有本意他的專業指導學生那我們也樂見看到台中地縣對這一個學生跟家長的一些不當的控訴給予這一個等於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].start |
13744.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].end |
13759.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[516].text |
所以在這裡要求部長對於學校所有的現在目前有幾個學校還有禮藝聯持這樣的一個校訓然後對於學生的一個品格教育尤其是 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].start |
13760.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].end |
13787.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[517].text |
上課之前以前我們學校7點半上課現在改成8點那以前7點半上課有很多遲到的學生他7點45分鐘才來中間還有45分鐘可以做一個緩和那現在8點上課8點學生來學校8點45分鐘上課那有多少的學生都是遲到的那現在有很多學生他迷戀網路 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].start |
13788.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].end |
13815.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[518].text |
所以晚上都不睡覺的一到早不是遲到來到教室是為免的在這裡我們就有看到教育部的書面報告有提到為了避免重複處分寬課學生所以三課總初期沒有達到三分之二就拿不到畢業證書問題拿不到畢業證書但是可以拿到修業證明 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].start |
13816.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].end |
13825.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[519].text |
目前的一個教育啊你們要拿到畢業證書拿到修業證書是可以考RSA的那請問一下部長那這樣子對於你這個辦法這個評量的辦法有效率嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].start |
13832.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].end |
13861.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[520].text |
跟委員報告怎麼樣以時俱進有一些對學生老師授予這個更高的一個專業的一個管教權或者學生行為的規劃我同意應該以時俱進但剛才委員所提的這高中生他沒有畢業證書他就可以用同等學歷來考這至少在這個制度就我的記憶至少超過20年或者甚至30年以上也就是說過去他一路來是啊但是過去那個比例沒有那麼高啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].start |
13861.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].end |
13889.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[521].text |
我同意我們怎麼樣以時俱進來做檢討我想這是應該的因為呢這個就是我們要談到就是我在24號呢6月24號還有執行到一個教師依法輔導跟管教學生仍然必須呢就是禁止對學生體罰 廉格羞辱這個都沒有問題但是當老師採取正當而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].start |
13892.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].end |
13912.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[522].text |
合以比例演者的一個維持秩序的同時呢教育部必須給他一個制度的一個後盾做他的一個制度的一個後盾教師解聘不續聘的這裡邊的這個法令的相關規定他已經明文老師本以這一個專業來指導這一個管教學生是不受罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].start |
13913.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].end |
13933.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[523].text |
就是說法令上已經都有明文上的一個規範那當然我也理解這樣一個法令到這個第一線上的中小學這個裡邊的處理難免會有一個校務上的一些落差這我想我們來提醒地方跟怎麼樣來支持第一線上的這些老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].start |
13934.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].end |
13944.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[524].text |
我想這是應該的在教師法第八款也有很明定的說如果老師已經進入到司法的時候學校有義務來幫他聘請律師來辯護那麼我們也希望教育部能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].start |
13951.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].end |
13963.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[525].text |
當然是最好不要啦如果有這樣的一個現象教育部是不是能夠來貫徹執行就是說老師如果有進入到司法司法部分教育部有權所以要幫他聘請律師來幫他辯護在這個地方我們希望教育部能夠執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].start |
13971.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].end |
13996.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[526].text |
再來呢在我6月24號跟那個張廖次長做了兩次的一個交流就是說校事會議為什麼會這麼亂演會這麼混亂事實上呢我就提出一個想法就是說我們能不能設立一個知行委員會這個知行委員會能夠先把所有的申訴的案件在這個知行委員會做一個過濾讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].start |
14000.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].end |
14025.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[527].text |
校長還有當事人老師都不知道這件事情讓老師能夠安心的教學那讓校長也能夠安心的治理學校不要一下子就進到學校來還要讓老師讓這個校長老師來三方來做說明這樣子的話你看老師本身基於他的一個專業柱子他對於學生的一個管教是合理的時候還要讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].start |
14027.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].end |
14042.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[528].text |
這個三方來做這樣一個諮詢我覺得這個對老師還有校長都是很大的一個傷害所以我在這裡已經第三次的提供教育部能不能成立這樣一個諮詢委員會希望教育部能夠來做一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].start |
14043.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].end |
14048.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[529].text |
謝謝委員的這個建議因為我們上個禮拜的全國教育局首長會議確實有地方政府譬如說高雄市他建議在還沒有進入 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].start |
14070.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].end |
14098.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[530].text |
這一個之前他們就可以來有第三方的一個調節這一個委員會來協調是但是這個第三方會讓校長跟老師都知道這件事情吧這一個如果有親師上或者管教上的問題是不是在前言不是由學校來認定是由地方教育局來組這樣一個調議委員會來直接來認定以免造成學校的一些困擾我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].start |
14099.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].end |
14116.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[531].text |
這個部分當然我們都保留就說我們希望本來大家就希望說學生的授教權怎麼樣去維護然後也讓老師能夠充分的發揮他的專業的一個教學權這個部分是大家的目標都是一致的我們看怎麼樣讓這一個能夠有更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].start |
14118.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].end |
14143.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[532].text |
保護老師就是在保護學生的一個受教材所以我們在這裡還是希望教育部希望親師能夠有更多的合作能夠信任最後我要再跟部長交流一下就是說我剛剛講到說學生沒有畢業但是他可以拿到那個結業證書仍然可以考大學但是這個數據很嚇人 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].start |
14145.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].end |
14154.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[533].text |
目前因為高三學生的總數因為少子化的關係減了三成但是沒有拿到畢業證書僅拿到休業證書的一個人數竟然是逆勢緩爭全國高中畢業生降到88.5% |
| transcript.whisperx[534].start |
14163.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].end |
14171.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[534].text |
畢業的學生88.5%就有一成多的一個學生是拿不到畢業證書也就是說10個高中生有一個學生他是拿不到畢業證書但是他可以拿結業證書去考大學這個剛剛我跟校長那個部長已經有做一個溝通了所以我覺得這個是我們要參考的 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].start |
14188.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].end |
14207.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[535].text |
這個制度到底我們本來是有幾制現在改成協分制這個協分制造成這樣子沒有辦法拿到畢業證書因為有很多學生他沒有時間修協分寒暑假還有很多課業但是因為他是協分制 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].start |
14208.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].end |
14228.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[536].text |
寫文字他必須要有一些課沒有過的或是沒有修的他必須要利用寒暑假去修但是他沒有時間修那也修不完而且有時候有修也沒有效果所以呢他寧願就因為現在可以沒有畢業證書也沒有關係我仍然可以考大學所以呢我們希望在這樣一個制度上是不是教育部要做一個通盤的一個檢討應該要如何的來讓這樣的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].start |
14233.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].end |
14250.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[537].text |
問題不要再將近一成的學生沒有拿到畢業證書但是他可以考大學部長你的看法呢我講謝謝委員的一個提醒跟指正取消留級制度是在民國103年 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].start |
14253.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].end |
14282.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[538].text |
也就是說在那一個時空大家總覺得說不要用留級的一個制度來限制學生的許多的一些發展跟可能當然比較頂範上會希望能夠學生的學習權讓他有更大的空間但是當然對啊 這個利益良好103年到現在也十幾年到底要不要有一個重新的思考是我想這個我們現在因為問題出來的嘛是可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].start |
14283.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].end |
14304.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[539].text |
可以來討論的那我們希望就是說這個取消留級制的這樣一個制度呢到底他的問題出在哪裡那要如何來做一個調整我們也希望教育部能夠來做一個前盤的一個考量所以呢因為高中12年教育他還是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].start |
14305.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].end |
14332.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[540].text |
義務教育那個適性洋財的然後我們不希望說有很多的學生他受到這樣的福利但是他又不認真所以這個教育資源不應該是廉價的施捨所以我們反對胡亂的一個補助齊頭式的假平等所以我們希望部長還是能夠對於這樣的一個制度能夠做一個檢討最後還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].start |
14334.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].end |
14345.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[541].text |
有兩個地方反映上來的所以有關於在這個學期有把中小學老師的一個終點位做一個調整但是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].start |
14349.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].end |
14367.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[542].text |
據我了解高中端沒有問題他們都有拿到新的新的一個終點會的一個薪資但是呢在國中端國中以下的學校的到目前為止還是拿到舊式的一個終點會那麼我們希望教育部能夠了解一下為什麼這個應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].start |
14370.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].end |
14381.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[543].text |
當初在做一個調整的時候學校的一個會計應該都有做這樣的一個提報但是目前為止是沒有拿到還沒有拿到不知道部長知不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].start |
14383.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].end |
14400.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[544].text |
我想這個法令上已經都改變了地方如果還沒有補給老師我想我們再來瞭解瞭解哪些通知他們趕快補正這是因為我幫忙反映的因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].start |
14401.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].end |
14405.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[545].text |
目前部長對於地方的一個視察都非常的也對地方的一個教育也非常的關心本委會教育委員會在7月27號在營林有辦了一個教育考察在這裡誠懇的也邀請我們的部長還有我們署長能夠陪同一起到營林來做一個考察希望部長能夠把這個時間排出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].start |
14431.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].end |
14433.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[546].text |
那最後呢我們還是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].start |
14439.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].end |
14443.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[547].text |
教育部要檢討協分制還有重修機制在兩個月內針對108課綱實施後各縣市高中為畢業率飆高的一個線上提出一個專案的調查並能夠研擬如何重塑課堂的自細跟協力把關機制然後也請教育部能夠重新評估教育的補助是否合理化 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].start |
14465.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].end |
14486.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[548].text |
然後重新審視現行的各項教育補助的一個政策將資源引導到一個真正能講義進取然後扶持進步建立互出跟收穫的一個相稱一個真正的公平教育也麻煩教育部能夠提出這樣的一個書面報告到本班以上跟部長就交流好 部長請出 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].start |
14502.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].end |
14532.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[549].text |
下一位林益錦委員有請鄭部長有請部長委員好部長辛苦12點多跟鄰居一起打招呼教文委員會齁幾乎不可以這樣過加油啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].start |
14533.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].end |
14544.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[550].text |
上週七號八號我們一連兩天有在新鐵館顧問全國教育局處長會議那會中大家都有持續對於校事會有提出這個達成共識 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].start |
14549.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].end |
14574.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[551].text |
彭署長也有說這個新制上路後的這個分析報告會在7月15號7月15號這個完成那到時候除了對照這個這個舊版的這個同時期的狀況之後也會跟地方政府就實務面的相關困難會交換意見那針對校事會議我在這裡有四點要跟教育部確認第一個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].start |
14575.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].end |
14602.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[552].text |
我們是訂定辦法本來就是行政機關依法有據的權責那今天立法院要求要退回或者要求教育部修正校事會議的這個相關辦法的依據是什麼我要請問部長今天提出這一案的委員或者是黨團他既然要介入行政機關依法有據的權責 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].start |
14603.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].end |
14618.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[553].text |
那他就應該要提出具體的依據跟要求所以等一下請部長回答到底他提出具體的依據跟要求是什麼第二 那既然7月15號我們就要提出校事會議的相關的分析報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].start |
14619.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].end |
14635.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[554].text |
那是否至少要等到7月15號這個具體的分析這個報告之後我們再來看在建立現有的基礎上讓校士會議的這個相關辦法可以訂得更好那不然我們到底拿什麼當基礎做改革啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].start |
14635.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].end |
14664.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[555].text |
好那第三就目前各縣市啊由教育局直接交辦給學校的受理的這個所謂的檢舉案件的比例啊平均現在是33%嘛好那其中有10個縣市是高於這個33%那有6個縣市是高於60%等於這6個縣市有60%以上的比例接到檢舉案件就直接交到學校去 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].start |
14666.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].end |
14690.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[556].text |
部長你認為是不是這樣的數據會偏高也不是我們希望的樣態第四 教育部授權各縣市政府依據實際的需求在校事會議前我們要開所謂的調處會議關於這個調處的機制教育部你該如何確保各縣市未來一定會明確來落實很多問題請部長一一回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].start |
14692.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].end |
14710.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[557].text |
確實這個校事會我們是跟委員報告我們確實是依據教師法第29條的一個授權我們才訂定那當然在去年之前確實也造成第一線上爛樹昏昏擾擾所以我們馬上做了修正很努力的跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].start |
14712.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].end |
14735.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[558].text |
這個各地方縣市不同的團體座談後來慢慢我對現場的一個掌握更清楚我們也做了這樣一個調整所以也看到了確實從去年相對時期跟今年它的一個數量是大量的一個減少我想這都是一個完好的方面所以其實倒是 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].start |
14736.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].end |
14763.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[559].text |
委員剛才所提的如果對校式會議要退回到底我們有哪些委員有哪些具體的一個這個看法我想我們也這個虛心接受就委員是不是能夠直接跟我們講的有一個比較清楚的我們到底要就是要有具體的依據跟要求才可以把你退回或要求你修正嘛另外我們新的辦法裡面確實也跟委員報告我們看到過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].start |
14764.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].end |
14782.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[560].text |
有六個縣市超過60%都直接交下去的這裡邊我們新的辦法也做了一些規範你要交下去必須要根據我們幾個比如說他有沒有他是不是有沒有匿名的你是不是有真正查證他是真的當事人這個人名跟他寫的 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].start |
14783.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].end |
14803.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[561].text |
是不是一致的所有的東西我們都有確認過以後你才能夠轉請學校去辦理那這個部分我相信未來它都會降低我剛才特別也在會跟其他委員報告說以我們來看新的辦法光這一個台中市就降了一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].start |
14804.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].end |
14820.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[562].text |
就過去同一個年度裡面到進入到校式會議的一個建樹今年到同一個是他已經減少了52%所以說我們看到他有一些縣市市上他已經掌握到整個新的辦法他的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].start |
14821.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].end |
14839.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[563].text |
這個精神所以對老師也干擾到明顯的減少那當然我們也期待說有一些縣市如果還沒有反應過來我們希望他應該要落實我們會提醒因為我們現在所有的後端的data證據我們事實上都很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].start |
14851.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].end |
14865.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[564].text |
確實是上個禮拜二禮拜三的會議裡面局處所長會議大部分是都認為說新的辦法不要再改了已經夠好了他們也認為能夠達到保護學生的受教權然後也能夠維護老師的一個專業權那怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].start |
14871.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].end |
14881.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[565].text |
能夠確保到地方縣市所以後來就是變成高雄市說他們有第三方的比照勞資糾紛的一個所謂勞資的調處家長跟老師的一個調處那台南市也有一個調合 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].start |
14894.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].end |
14908.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[566].text |
桃園市他是認為說不要讓學校裡邊來來分案說到底要不要進入到校園是分案是教育局要分案教育局去分案這裡邊這是桃園市提出來但是基本上 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].start |
14909.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].end |
14933.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[567].text |
大家討論完以後還是說這三個縣市因為有你地方姓那就尊重你們地方姓所以他們有要弄這個所謂的調處的機制就讓他們去弄是就說讓他們也去做做看但是至少大家的共識是目前已經醫院委員們所支持的這個版本就暫時不要再動我們再繼續往下走大概是這樣好 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].start |
14934.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].end |
14954.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[568].text |
因為校士會議的影響它是多面向的我們除了站在這個老師的角度來看我們其實也要換位思考學生的角度來看看這個相關的困境上個月中央社有一個報導它指出說台北市有某高中的球隊學生他透過這個北市府的1999跟網路澄清 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].start |
14956.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].end |
14982.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[569].text |
可是這個球隊的總教練很快就拿到這個孩子的陳情資料甚至還拿這個來脅迫學生撤案那部長這個當然很明顯就是學生端的保障不足或者是有出現某些漏洞造成所謂的洩密事件所以就是要請教部長說如果每一個受害學生在投訴前他都還要擔心說會不會個資被洩漏啊怎麼樣那這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].start |
14986.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].end |
15005.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[570].text |
這樣的問題就是說我們要怎麼樣防堵啦讓學生要去檢檢就是要去投訴之前他其實是安心的這一點要請部長回答我們在新的辦法裡面針對我們就是要確保投訴者他如果記事實他是負責任具名的 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].start |
15005.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].end |
15031.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[571].text |
假设承办单位有把他的名字把他的个子泄露他是要负法律责任的也就是说严重我们事实上是以刑法来救责的所以在新的办法里边都有做这样一个规范所以行政端接到这样的学生的投诉他是绝对要负绝对保密责任假设这个投诉是人事实地务都是具体的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].start |
15032.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].end |
15056.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[572].text |
他應該要被保障的被保護的只要他的個資被洩漏他要負刑事責任的這邊我們在法令上也都有明文規範好 了解那教育部我們有說嘛7月15號就要提出校事這個會議的相關的分析報告那本席要要求這個報告不該只是著重減少了 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].start |
15057.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].end |
15072.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[573].text |
就是減少了多少的投訴案件或者是進入校式會議調查的案件數又降低了多少我覺得我們其實是要了解學生端的實際需求那因為我們心智上路那是不是有受到衝擊我覺得這個是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].start |
15074.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].end |
15088.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[574].text |
我們要了解的就是說雖然有改善可是他有沒有受到新的衝擊我覺得唯有我們要去多方的了解對於校式會議的相關辦法的改革才能做到真正的雙贏部長你覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].start |
15089.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].end |
15117.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[575].text |
是 我想我們的態度是跟委員是一致的就是說還是回顧到不是讓教師應該讓他離開教育現場學生的受教權應該被保護但是老師的專業教學跟專業的管教的一個權我們也應該要授權保護老師也讓老師有專業的一個自主權這個我想是非常肯定的那也謝謝委員的提醒我們在因為今天是已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].start |
15118.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].end |
15141.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[576].text |
今天十三所以我們大概今天歸納一些意見我們大概會把這一個明天十五號之前我們會盡快我們會盡快來公佈好那接著想要跟部長討論一下這個其實都有跟部長陸陸續續討論這個就是之前我們教育部有宣布這個兼任課跟代理老師的那個終點費要調漲可是那個本土語的這個所謂的教學資源老師的終點費卻沒有跟著調 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].start |
15147.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].end |
15176.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[577].text |
那我質詢過部長你之後你就表達說這個應該要調整所以有經過半年的時間終於在上個月有拍板定案那可是本席認為除了教學資源老師還有終點費需要調整以外我覺得所有以終點費之心的工作類列別我覺得教育部應該都有一致的動作才對像這次這個待課代理老師跟教學資源老師他分別調整的這個案例來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].start |
15177.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].end |
15198.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[578].text |
之前那個鄭部長你詢問的時候就有表達說其實調整終點費的精神就是要改善教師的待遇所以我們既然要調就要一起調不要調到A啦B啦再來還要走行政程序去調其他的所以部長距離您上次表達已經過了半年你覺得終點費要一併調升的機制你有建立了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].start |
15201.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].end |
15214.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[579].text |
其實我必須要跟委員坦白過去當通過這個終點會的時候從我過去的行政的一個經驗它是一體適用但是後來我發現我們在這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].start |
15216.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].end |
15241.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[580].text |
行政的一個體系裡面人事總署他確實有不同的規劃那這個部分我們會來建立共識希望以後像這個就由教育部能夠經過整個程序以後就一體適用我想這我們來簡化行政手續也能夠對各式各樣的老師有更大的支持而不要造成說這一邊的先過了那邊還要在那邊等我們還要再報 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].start |
15243.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].end |
15256.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[581].text |
這個行政院核定再一次我想這一個部分我們一定會來深切見證非常謝謝部長除了我們剛剛講的是政客時間的教師費教師的終點費需要調整一致外還有就是所謂的非政客 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].start |
15257.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].end |
15279.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[582].text |
性質的終點費像什麼像第八節課或像寒暑假的這個輔導課或者重補休或者夜光天使的計畫還是課後的照顧班我的意思是說在現行的制度下當然這些是地方政府的權責也是需要地方政府來調整可是現在就是說我們中央如果沒有一致的所謂的標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].start |
15279.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].end |
15302.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[583].text |
那地方政府他就會互相推諉他說中央政府又沒講你會說你地方政府你必須要調整所以是不是能不能訂立一個比較一致的相關的規範讓地方政府可以遵循也無所閃避然後你這邊就是我們也可以就是所謂的非政客跟政客都一併來調整只要終點費有調漲的潛力之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].start |
15305.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].end |
15330.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[584].text |
跟委員報告 確實因為地方因地制宜它會發展許多不同的班別包括中頂會有一些可能家長另外收的錢有一些我相信其實就地方來講它如果要比照辦理依照這樣它事實上法源上是非常清楚我們在行政的裁量跟行政的運作這完全是沒有任何的一個阻礙的那當然就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].start |
15332.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].end |
15355.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[585].text |
至少從教育部的立場就用到公家經費的能夠比照辦理那是完全沒有治癌的那如果另外額外收錢要家長付費的另外學校裡面去訂定經過討論訂定一個費用或者甚至地方政府也都會訂定這樣一個所謂的費用的一個支用辦法我想我們是可以尊重 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].start |
15355.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].end |
15378.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[586].text |
好 那另外就是說當然我的前提還是希望說這個調整是一致的啦因為這些課不管是公家給的淨費還是說這個家長自己付費的所謂的正課跟非正課都還是老師來授課 老師來教嘛所以如果說可以保障老師的權益當然是可以調整一致的是比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].start |
15379.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].end |
15405.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[587].text |
那現在有教師團體認為說乾脆把這個教師週點費納入教師待遇條例予以保障那不曉得教育部你對這個的看法如何那因為我們這次的主題有討論到這個教育經費的編列那所以本席認為說我們在討論重要地方的財源教育財源的分配的時候也事權這個重新劃分的同時我們是不是也要一併跟地方政府來充分討論這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].start |
15408.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].end |
15424.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[588].text |
持平論終點會算是比較末梢的如果你在一個大法裡面去把終點會加進民定怎麼樣我看這個可能以後隨著經濟的發展社會進步每天三不五時就要改這個為了終點會來改這個謀法我看它確實有斟酌的一個空間它可能是 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].start |
15431.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].end |
15447.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[589].text |
教師團體當然教師團體有沒有說要把終點費的費用納進去這是這個可能還要再研究可是我的意思說他或許他們是認為說這個終點費是要一致性的終點費把它納入好像說我剛剛提到了一些政客的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].start |
15449.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].end |
15470.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[590].text |
可是跟委員報告因為我們地方制入法裡面國民教育是屬於地方教育的前線所以有一些要因地制宜的如果變成由中央來直接入法全國一致他可能就有很難去兼顧到地方的一個所謂因地制宜 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].start |
15471.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].end |
15489.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[591].text |
這當然我的意思說不是不行但是可能還是要就很怕如果所謂中央請客地方買單的困境就是說到最後他缺乏變通或者彈性因地制宜這可能還要再爭取好那最後本席再請教這個部長是說這個本土語的教學的向下扎根的問題喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].start |
15490.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].end |
15492.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[592].text |
之前那個黃恩勳來台灣的時候他用台語跟一個小朋友交談他叮嚀小朋友說你要學台語那這個其實掀起了學習本土語的討論那我們現在看我們除了國小到高中的本土語教學 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].start |
15506.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].end |
15521.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[593].text |
我們現在像張哥就是往右而遠去嘛好 那我們現在看到我們根據教育部的資料其實我們有補助這個教保的活動的課程 本土語的教學我們有補助分別都是從2023到2025都是300多間啦那包括補助這個台灣的這個台語沉浸式的教學計畫也都有300多間 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].start |
15529.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].end |
15550.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[594].text |
所以落在三四百個圓那可是全台灣的教保機關是有六千多間所以這個比例是不是也是太低了一點那我知道國教署其實很努力在扎根這個本土教學那力道我覺得應該還可以更大所以想要請教部長說我們要怎麼樣辦理這個本土 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].start |
15550.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].end |
15575.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[595].text |
本語語的課程讓它元素可以持續增加有沒有鼓勵的一些方案那有沒有掌握像客家語啊或者原住民語或者這個他們的這個沉浸式潛力性教消學的計畫的開課狀況那這部分是不是部長還可以再加強一下謝謝委員關心我們本土事實上本土語事實上就是國家語言 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].start |
15576.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].end |
15597.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[596].text |
是那我們在去年去年的全國教育局處所長會議所有22個縣市的教育局處所長他們都有簽了一個共同的一個承諾我們幼兒園不管哪一班開始會隨著他的區域地區性比如說這個地區比較多都是講台語的那幼兒開始就要教台語 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].start |
15598.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].end |
15617.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[597].text |
然後客家族群客家地區的就交客語原住民部落的就交原住民這是22個地方縣市教育局處所長都有簽訂他們願意承諾來推動這一個所謂的本土語言我想這是第一個那第二個教育部的這一個我們有一些政策 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].start |
15618.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].end |
15635.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[598].text |
就是說如果地方縣市他願意開始有一些所謂的雙語就是華語跟這個本土語言的一個學校辦學我們教育部也會給你重點的經費的一個補助那這個另外我們在思思培育裡面全國的 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].start |
15636.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].end |
15659.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[599].text |
中小學老師有在培養中小學的師師培育機構裡邊我們也把本土語納為我們重點補助就是說你這些大學生或者研究生你要以後當老師本土語裡面不管你是用台語或者客家語或者原住民語或者民東語你有接受這個譬如說中等中級的中階的中級的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].start |
15662.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].end |
15689.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[600].text |
這個認證那我們隨著這人數比例我們會給你不同的經費的一些補助我想我們是全面的那另外還有一些也鼓勵這個地方縣市假設有一些退場的學校怎麼樣也能夠變成一個教學園區類似迪士尼的主題教學館去發展地方的特色我想這我們都會給你地方的這些經費上的支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].start |
15689.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].end |
15706.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[601].text |
好 謝謝部長 部長辛苦 好 謝謝好 謝謝 請坐下一位吳麗華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].start |
15713.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].end |
15731.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[602].text |
好謝謝主席趙偉那因為現在也一點了部長很辛苦我就請國教署長有請署長署長好委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].start |
15732.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].end |
15750.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[603].text |
最近的這個油品事件我們可以看到有人說是毒油但是也有人說應該要講致癌油那總之就是問題油那不論這一次就是因為廠商的自主檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].start |
15752.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].end |
15776.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[604].text |
發生一些漏洞那又加上地方政府出現這個督察不力所以呢就衍生了這一次的這樣的一個風暴但是我們今天在這裡其實是帶著很多家長的疑問大家最關心的還是想要了解到底這些問題由致癌由 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].start |
15778.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].end |
15802.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[605].text |
有沒有流向校園那我們知道的是說像第一波在公布這些問題有的時候說有257家那麼教育部這邊也要求各縣市做了第一波的校園清查也確認了受影響的縣市跟學校數那請教一下署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].start |
15804.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].end |
15808.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[606].text |
我們是用什麼樣的系統去做調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].start |
15809.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].end |
15836.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[607].text |
我們是用我們所謂的食燈平台食材登錄平台就是校園食材登錄平台是家長平日也都可以在這個平台上看到小朋友吃的內容好那麼我看到其實今天的報告也有寫到7月7號截止你們也有公布了一些就是有受到影響的縣市是哪些縣市 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].start |
15838.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].end |
15864.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[608].text |
七月七號的時候那一天部長在局長會議的第一天有講那時候是四個縣市那雙北基隆台中那時候是一百六十五個學校那我知道的是應該跟委員報告那個時候講的是第一層的四家廠商的那個油品到後來繼續有提到兩百 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].start |
15865.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].end |
15892.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[609].text |
32个品项以及后来提到401个品项后来又再提到440个品项这个我们每次主播都有第一时间就第二层的产品也有在详查那我现在就是想要请教署长因为我们是从校园食材登录平台去捞资料所以我们也想要去做一个确认就是每一个学校这个登录平台上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].start |
15895.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].end |
15916.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[610].text |
有没有去了解过各位报告在我们的餐厅厨房管理的办法里面这个是要登载的登载的项目如委员这边所看到那有没有可能像现在PPT上面所显示的会不会有像那种没有登录的状况 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].start |
15917.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].end |
15940.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[611].text |
那我们现在如果使用到他没有登载我们扩大像这一次是沙拉油我们直接用沙拉油也跟他提醒是所以其实你们有没有发现有一些学校是没有登载有一些学校他在登载时因为这一个是属于一学期要登载一次所以早上有委员提到三个月是不是在油品的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].start |
15941.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].end |
15957.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[612].text |
要做一點另外的一些處理這個我們也會做一點這樣子一方面的處理好 署長我就是提到其實家長他最在意的或者我們一般的民眾最在意的他想要了解他到底有沒有吃到 買到 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].start |
15959.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].end |
15985.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[613].text |
那校園的食安更是嚴謹所以家長非常在乎這一塊所以我們也必須在做把關的這一塊也要做自我要求要非常的嚴謹所以呢我們希望說這個既然我們有要求所有的品項都要登錄到平台裡面一旦我們發現有一些學校如果沒有確實做到我們還是要有因應的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].start |
15986.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].end |
16004.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[614].text |
對那這個部分剛才你有提了我們會怎麼要求第一點我們在當天內一定要登沒登的因為我們有一個自動的系統在他們這個我們的數位界他們稱爬蟲會去找到沒有執行的是它會列入考核是 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].start |
16005.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].end |
16032.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[615].text |
那我這邊就是希望教育部要全面盤點各級學校還有幼兒園他使用這個校園食材登錄平台的一個實際情形那一定要確認食用油調味料還有加工食品有沒有完整登錄他的品牌製造商供應商批號或者其他可以追溯的資訊那提出盤點的結果跟改善的期限那另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].start |
16033.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].end |
16058.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[616].text |
我也希望對於這些登錄不完整或者長期沒有落實的學校教育部應該要會同地方政府建立一個督導、集合跟定期追蹤的機制那積極的要求學校跟團善業者要做確實的登錄不可以說只有用宣導或自行填報的方式那我也希望這個部分兩週內可以給我一個報告好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].start |
16058.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].end |
16063.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[617].text |
好的 好 謝謝那接下來是不是我想請那個衛福部的次長謝謝委員 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].start |
16078.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].end |
16104.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[618].text |
因為談到這個問題有品的事件很多人在乎的還有包括怎麼退費怎麼賠償那我也知道說這個部分其實也變成是一門學問因為我看到很多民眾他們還有自製各類的工具真的那個技術很厲害但是我們發現也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].start |
16104.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].end |
16132.665 |
| transcript.whisperx[619].text |
可能落入诈骗或者骗取个资这样的一个状况那甚至呢我们也看到说像是7-11它有委托联华食品去制作这个鲜食那它这个致癌有的波及到80多项那它很好因为有电子钱包它可以采用会员的主动退费所以在这里我看到7月8号9号 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].start |
16134.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].end |
16154.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[620].text |
行政院有召開一個各部會工作的協調會議那其中有提到要協調衛福部經濟部還有行政院的消保處對於國人持下架郵品到通路退換貨的這個事宜所以在這個部分我不曉得說 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].start |
16157.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].end |
16184.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[621].text |
目前的規劃是怎麼做像至少我們知道連民眾都可以去結合財政部的電子發票整合服務平台去設計這樣的一個系統那我就不曉得說衛福部這個地方打算怎麼做好 謝謝委員現在我們在之前的會議裡面陳時中政委也才是就是說我們盡量要簡便從寬處理這是第一個原則那第二個部分就是因為現在我們有兩個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].start |
16184.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].end |
16207.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[622].text |
一些油品是查出它有超標那一批就是下架回收但是因為我們發現4月到6月中聯的油品我們持續這樣子已經到第三波了所以我們後來是決議從4月到6月中聯這29批是全部預防性下架那預防性下架的話呢那有一些還在做後續的檢驗所以是預防性下架的目的是避免如果說後續還有一些檢驗出來的問題那後續的處理有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].start |
16210.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].end |
16238.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[623].text |
后续会有一些处理上更复杂也让民众能够在现在市面上可以比较安心那至于说接下来这一些现在的状况就是民众有疑虑我们就跟这些目前遇到因为在中联下面有泰山福茂跟福寿三家厂商这三家厂商我们有跟他们说到就是他们现在都接受他们所有下游的这个退货那退货之后后续这边的相关的刚刚讲到的赔偿或者是这个费用的部分那我们会再做一个比较细节的演绎 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].start |
16238.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].end |
16252.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[624].text |
我們也目前是先要求廠商這邊目前是要求廠商這邊他們要有跟我們一樣同步的公開資訊那再來的話在食安基金這邊後續也會有一些處理那請教大家在意的關於要不要舉證那這個查詢還有申請責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].start |
16255.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].end |
16278.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[625].text |
那會由消費者這邊來提出嗎我們現在是盡量重寬所以是盡量重寬對好謝謝好謝謝次長謝謝那接下來我還是要了解一下食安法的修法方向因為我們都知道這一次有提到大家都注意到了這個業者他們的自主檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].start |
16279.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].end |
16305.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[626].text |
跟這個第三方檢驗他到底有沒有通報的義務還有這一次的源頭關乎邊境的管理等等其實大家也很關注所以在這邊我是想要了解說因為我們現在檢討起來這個第三方的檢驗呢目前看起來他不需要回報主管機關他只需要回報業者 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].start |
16306.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].end |
16327.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[627].text |
那麼我們也看到關於這些吹哨者呢可能會因為說什麼違反營業秘密法違反員工保密協定損害商譽或者是在食安法第五十條第二項所提到的這一些他就會變成不敢吹哨那次長請教您這四個漏洞嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].start |
16329.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].end |
16343.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[628].text |
先跟我們補充,這一次其實我們有收到包含過程中,南橋等等他們有做這樣子的,他們有發現有問題,但是他們沒有來向主管機關包含地方的衛生局或向我們報告,他們只有在自己業內,所以這個我們不認為他是吹哨。 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].start |
16345.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].end |
16366.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[629].text |
他们反而是延迟这个部分我们先澄清那在实案法这边当然我们希望能够来研议就是说要有强制的上传报告以及在他这边在这个实验室这边我们也要研修就是我们的第七条第三项的规定的执法规希望说能够透过强制跟及时的上传报告让主管机关可以第一时间就掌控跟了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].start |
16367.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].end |
16395.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[630].text |
所以这个部分你们会在食安法的部分去做修正有在规划从食安法修正食安法跟它相关的执法规那大家提到的这个呢业者的自主检验的频率呢对 所以业者检验的频率我们也跟文文报告我们现在看起来当然过去这四年食药署我们都是有提供请地方我们有相关的专案在验但是自主检验的频率我们也认为拉时间拉太长而且自主检验的频率没有因为这些制沙拉油的这些厂 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].start |
16395.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].end |
16423.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[631].text |
它的厂的批次或者是它的那个规模并没有一个区别那这个部分我们会做后续会做一些调整所以未来会做大小厂的因为其实有些厂它可能半年可能只出一两次货那像这个它的大厂它可能像这段时间4月到6月它就出了29批货所以因为不同的厂我们会要求它有一些平区上要做一些调整可能检验的费用也会令一些小厂会吃不消吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].start |
16424.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].end |
16444.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[632].text |
之前就是自主的时候我们认为说他们在希望他们自主检验那固定我们也会有一些专案去调查可是这样发现这一次我们就明确的发现在这样子大量有影响市场巨大的这些厂单纯让他们自主检验而且频次不够这样子的话是真的会有一些漏洞的问题我想很多人都有提到其实像现在受虐儿 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].start |
16445.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].end |
16473.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[633].text |
其實醫院他就有主動通報的這樣的義務我想修法的方向應該也會往這個方向吧我們希望就是說讓廠商這邊第一我們有要求他們要定期的上這個資料上來不能而且評次的部分自主檢驗我想這個評次不夠那另外一個部分就是說我們要能夠希望能夠在接下來在食安法的調整裡面能夠讓他們必須有這個義務那但是同時要能夠避免他為了不敢 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].start |
16474.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].end |
16501.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[634].text |
為了檢驗到之後我會有問題我必須抱上去然後怕他們不敢驗所以這兩個部分要同時來處理那邊境管理的部分呢因為大家都覺得那個乙型受體素那個豬肉儀表板蠻不錯的謝謝委員肯定我們的那個豬肉儀表板因為每次在講的時候我們都說上面有可是很多人不看不過先跟委員說明其實我們在這一次所說的它其實是因為主要還是這一些煉油廠它的HACCP |
| transcript.whisperx[635].start |
16502.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].end |
16529.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[635].text |
他内部应该在整个自由过程他们必须要有每一个我们讲每一个节点的把关那让他在这个过程里面可以确保他的产品的稳定跟确保产品能够符合规则好谢谢因为我想这个部分目前消费者都非常的关心那也在关注我们未来食安法的修法方向希望未来不再有这样的状况出现好谢谢卫福部那接下来我还是要请一下国教署长 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].start |
16532.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].end |
16556.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[636].text |
有請署長謝謝主席委員好署長是這樣子的因為我們還是要來繼續關心校事會議但是我覺得大家最近都在幫校事會議去找原因找源頭因為校事會議是109年出現的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].start |
16559.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].end |
16561.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[637].text |
是 109年的但是這個問題加劇是在什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].start |
16564.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].end |
16593.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[638].text |
加劇如果在100第二個版本是在113年那113年的時候處理了兩件事在修法說明那邊有寫第一件事就是調查的時候全外聘第二件事是當時因為不當管教跟霸凌準則這邊的失對生的霸凌那麼現場希望能夠合一不要變成兩個調查小組所以113版本有把它合併 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].start |
16594.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].end |
16611.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[639].text |
所以呢就是調查的成員的問題嘛一個調查的成員另外一個就是事項上的合併變成原來在霸凌準則那邊統計的全部跑到解併辦法那我們來看一下因為其實今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].start |
16612.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].end |
16628.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[640].text |
有排這樣的一個議題就是關於學生出缺勤的管理那其實這個也暴露出一個問題就是管教的問題因為我們都知道這個事件簡單來講就是學生常常遲到 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].start |
16629.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].end |
16652.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[641].text |
那老師呢想了一個辦法就叫他抄寫課文但是對家長來講呢他就去檢舉甚至還要求申請國賠但是連法官都看不下去認為上課準時上學準時本來就是學生該做的事情所以呢這個部分我們就回頭去看的時候我們發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].start |
16654.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].end |
16672.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[642].text |
因為在112年呢有做一個修正那當時的理由我回頭去看是提到說一罪不兩罰因為一罪不兩罰所以呢112年的時候把這個國民小學及國民中學學生獎懲 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].start |
16673.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].end |
16695.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[643].text |
准则去做了一个修法他说既然已经把出缺席纳入了学习评量缺旷课严重可能就会影响毕业资格因此就不再做记过或警告的处分但是我们可以发现过去如果有警告 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].start |
16696.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].end |
16716.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[644].text |
這樣的處分的時候它其實是有警示的作用我至少知道說我被警告了我要累計滿小過了要大過了所以現在修成這樣子之後就發現學生有恃無恐為什麼因為缺礦課要達三分之一才有可能被打零分 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].start |
16718.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].end |
16740.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[645].text |
所以他只有到最後期末終於要被退學無可挽救的時候他才知道所以在這個部分我們發現說他也造成了一個影響因為老師他必須要有一些工具能夠去矯正要求學生的行為所以在這個地方我們又看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].start |
16742.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].end |
16761.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[646].text |
113年2月的公布的這個正向管教措施那我們會發現我隨便念幾個來聽告訴老師說要這樣子教就是如果跟學生溝通的時候呢要用同理心了解學生讓學生覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].start |
16761.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].end |
16781.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[647].text |
被了解了之後再給予他指正建議所以呢他要求老師可以這麼說你的好朋友找你打電玩你似乎很難拒絕但是如果繼續用太多時間玩電玩你也知道會有很多問題發生怎麼辦呢讓老師跟同學一起來幫助你 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].start |
16784.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].end |
16810.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[648].text |
署長如果一個老師他是這樣子對孩子講話才叫做正向管教您覺得有效果嗎謝謝委員早上部長對包含葉委員還有現在吳委員這一類的這個屬於管教當時電電管教辦法注意事項的第23條裡面有一些事例正向管教事例那那個時候是 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].start |
16812.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].end |
16836.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[649].text |
113年2月有一波是為了處理當時戈井案的一些問題那有做了一些處理那這一條當時應該沒有特別去處理那類似這一個部長剛才已經提到會與時俱進的在這一兩個月內會在很頻繁的邀集各單位一起來演商因為他會落入什麼呢正面表列 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].start |
16838.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].end |
16843.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[650].text |
家長會去查不在這裡面的管教方式那就是錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].start |
16844.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].end |
16867.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[651].text |
于是就可以来检举那调查委员呢他也不知道要用什么判准所以呢会衍生很多检举滥诉的一个问题所以在这里我们针对这个部分我们的这个正向管教的措施还有他的一个做法到底要怎么样去公布 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].start |
16867.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].end |
16880.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[652].text |
那他呢太限縮而且呢沒有去考量階段的問題幾歲的孩子適合什麼我想這個部分可能要全面的來檢討因為他衍生出的就是我剛剛講的會掛一漏萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].start |
16883.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].end |
16897.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[653].text |
那很容易變成是濫訴檢舉的一個很重要的來源所以這個部分請署長能夠特別的去注意那我在這裡就是因為我也知道全國教育的局處長會議在7號8號剛剛開完嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].start |
16902.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].end |
16921.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[654].text |
我在兩個禮拜前我有特別的去做一個靈體就是希望能夠研議這個第三方調查機制的一個做法跟其成我不曉得說在這個全國教育局處長會議當中你們有沒有收集到意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].start |
16923.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].end |
16945.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[655].text |
各位回報那基本上這個在定1月12號這個版本之前在去年11月就詢問過一次是那在這一次也有詢問過那主要是兩點第一點這個第三方如果是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].start |
16947.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].end |
16965.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[656].text |
事件要進來前就能夠有一個判斷那像高雄市就怕這樣處理如果校內處理怕人家覺得好像會有一些不當的想法所以他就延伸了一種第三方的來去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].start |
16966.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].end |
16967.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[657].text |
调处的机制 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].start |
16996.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].end |
17025.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[658].text |
用他们愿意承担的方式让学校比较免于附和的这种承担来帮忙学校那署长我很想听一下有哪一些县市的教育局处他是很乐意县市政府做第三方因为这一个涉及到我们一些讨论的细节跟其实那一天的发言那么多人次大概我这个时间可能是不是会后我再整理给我大体上那你可不可以大致讲个比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].start |
17025.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].end |
17054.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[659].text |
是五分之一二分之一三分之一这个并没有全部的局处长22位都有发言那大概是对譬如说他觉得这个他能够处理好的他支持那有些认为在行政复课上是不是用分区或是学校其实在机制上更能理解那个现场大概都有六都的发言比较明显其他县市就比较零星 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].start |
17055.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].end |
17070.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[660].text |
那署長最後我就是希望您可以來重視這個問題因為要處理這個爛訴那其實有兩個障礙就是老師他要面對法服救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].start |
17071.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].end |
17100.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[661].text |
要進入到訴訟才能夠啟動你知道這個部分就很困難那另外在過程中的舉證也相當的不容易這個是現在老師們所面臨的這樣的困境我們明知道他可能是濫訴但是他就會有兩道障礙就是我剛剛講的要進入到訴訟才有辦法啟動那過程中的舉證也很困難所以我上次兩個禮拜前的臨題才會提到就是希望教育部 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].start |
17101.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].end |
17121.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[662].text |
因救保障教師這個依法的管教權還有建立防止濫訴檢舉建立一個救濟完善的救濟制度我想這個部分是非常重要的那我也希望說教育部能夠持續的就是按照這個我們的要求來去做檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].start |
17122.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].end |
17141.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[663].text |
那之前呢我们也很高兴刚才有不断的听到您说因为一月公告的时候我们有提出一个要求就是事行半年之后你们要提出一个分析的报告那您在全国的教育局处会议好像教育部也有提到7月15号会提出来 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].start |
17142.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].end |
17159.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[664].text |
7月15號之前所以這個部分我們希望我們署裡面能夠盡早的把這樣的一個結果公布出來讓大家能夠更安心那更公開更透明那廣納更多人的意見聲音進來一起檢討好不好好謝謝趙偉的指導謝謝署長謝謝主席好謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].start |
17167.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].end |
17192.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[665].text |
不好意思 是不是徵求委員同意我們休息五分鐘 因為時間有官員說兩個小時沒有上廁所好 那沒有被叫到的那個官員又要自行上廁所再麻煩大家自行前往那我們就繼續質詢下一位無事要委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].start |
17196.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].end |
17200.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[666].text |
我先請衛福部林次長有請次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].start |
17211.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].end |
17232.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[667].text |
市長辛苦了真的從上午到下午明天立法院還有一整天卓院長會負責任的到立法院的大會接受各黨派的時安專報我想我們都理性的監督但是我非常遺憾當我們在致癌油問題油的事情還在釐清還在應變 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].start |
17233.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].end |
17258.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[668].text |
今天赫然又出現了鋪天蓋地的錯假訊息說毒蘋果來了我覺得這些錯假訊息的傳送者非常的其心可異不斷的興風作浪在整個社會對於食安議題高度關切的這個當下居然又惡意的在社群上散播 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].start |
17259.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].end |
17278.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[669].text |
我想請您說明,所謂社群上散播的食藥署放寬蘋果農藥分普尼殘留標準放寬了6倍也就是政府要讓人民從美國進口吃到毒蘋果,是事實嗎?不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].start |
17279.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].end |
17305.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[670].text |
所以呢芬普尼跟芬普寧有什麼不同您請要跟大家科比一下這兩個是用在不一樣的地方我是不是請副署長快速的跟大家講我看到社群上已經傳成一片我們這次訂的是芬普寧安寧的寧那這個是在國內不是芬普尼那芬普尼這個藥呢是在國內是 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].start |
17308.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].end |
17327.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[671].text |
水旋剂是禁止使用它只是准許使用利剂所以它有一部分是被禁掉所以這兩個藥是不一樣是完全不一樣的東西而且政府是基於科學把關而不是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].start |
17328.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].end |
17353.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[672].text |
美国与台湾的关税协定而被迫放宽也就是以美论现在又被操作了所以品相不同分普宁分普尼两者大不同而也没有放宽标准六倍我们一切是基于科学的把关依据科学的标准 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].start |
17354.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].end |
17381.022 |
| transcript.whisperx[673].text |
跟我们补充就是说我们其实因为有很多台湾事实上是有各式各样的蔬果食品等等跟全世界在做贸易那有的是我们要出口而是别人要进口那进口出口依据不同的国家不同的食用的模式那它的相关的风险以及不同的国家在种植物的时候它所用到的药品等等不同所以其实定期我们在农药的标准农药残留标准的检验里面都是定期在验的不是针对某些国家 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].start |
17382.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].end |
17400.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[674].text |
所以说这一次那我想请问目前社群上的这些恶意的传播你们依级法规依食安法可以搜证可以要求查处可以严格法办而且可以要求平台下架目前进行的如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].start |
17400.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].end |
17415.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[675].text |
目前食藥署會發文針對就是有這些錯誤的資訊或者是蓄意散播謠言的話我們會發文給相關平台業者那如果大家有就是說明確發現有蓄意要造謠的部分的話也可以讓我們知道我想Meta |
| transcript.whisperx[676].start |
17416.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].end |
17438.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[676].text |
目前為止似乎還沒有被強制下架相關的文章你們要求我們依法有授權嘛要求平台業者要負起他的社會責任不要讓這些錯假的訊息不斷的藉由平台的這種無遠弗屆的傳播力我今天早上等了一個上午一直在刷 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].start |
17439.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].end |
17469.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[677].text |
已經轉傳到非常離譜的狀況所以我被迫在今天的質詢請你們再一次的以正視聽好嗎好 謝謝委員我們新聞稿已經發了那相關的這個跟平台聯繫的部分我們今天下午會立刻處理我們也呼籲所有的國人安心沒有毒蘋果這件事沒有放寬分譜尼六倍標準這件事沒有政府為了跟美國的關稅談判ART的順利結果而犧牲了國人的健康 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].start |
17469.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].end |
17489.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[678].text |
都没有这些事大家要能够分辨这些错假的讯息大家也彼此的提醒那我请署长彭署长是洗手间不好意思有请署长自然你可能也稍后一下下署长辛苦了谢谢下一页 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].start |
17490.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].end |
17509.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[679].text |
我非常仔細的針對這一次的校園食安我們的整個管理我去就法規面制度面再去重盤檢視了一次在法規面我們可以依據的法律有食品安全衛生管理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].start |
17509.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].end |
17531.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[680].text |
在校園端我們有學校衛生法可以來落實校園食品安全的管理責任我們另外還有相關的執法學校餐廳廚房原生消費合作社衛生管理辦法進一步針對衛生管理制度來下手我們同樣可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].start |
17531.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].end |
17553.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[681].text |
经由现在的学校午餐食物内容营养基准还有校园饮品点心贩售范围等等行政规范所以在法治面我可以说面对任何可能冲击学生安全的食安在法治面校园目前是非常完备的 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].start |
17554.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].end |
17575.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[682].text |
也在這些法律的授權之下看看這個最左手邊就是這一次的教育部校園食材登錄平台它確實是發揮了作用我們可以一筆一筆快速的透過食材登錄的制度去追蹤流向所以這個系統是2020年上路到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].start |
17576.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].end |
17600.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[683].text |
我想法规的完备制度还有这个平台的运作有没有顺利尤其在应变的过程这是我最关切的而我这次发现你们另外还新设了一个LINE的通报小尖兵是吗是的这个作用是补什么之不足 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].start |
17603.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].end |
17623.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[684].text |
这个我们希望我们除了刚刚讲的一些机制包含email还有我们跟县市的直接的人工通报怕漏掉之外我们另外又做了一轨所以说这一次在新的作为现有的食材登录平台里头我们又快速的订定一个方便学校发声 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].start |
17624.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].end |
17650.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[685].text |
任何可疑的状况可以快速主动的透过这个LINE的通报小兼兵的系统可以回溯也可以回报给各地的县市政府包括教育部这个部分我在制度面我是要给予肯定你们的反应够快但是呢这就要有教育我们有行政院的消保处的同仁在这里吗这一次来副处长 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].start |
17651.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].end |
17665.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[686].text |
这一次的食安的事件跨部会都要动起来第一时间彻查下架所有有驴绿的油品第二步严格的法办重罚不罚的厂商 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].start |
17666.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].end |
17692.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[687].text |
而第三關也就是依據我們食安法有所授權我們可以啟動食安基金協助廣大的消費者除了退換貨之外要可以經由一個集體的訴訟來求償我不曉得現在行政院的規劃尤其在校園可能就是替各級學校一併來集體求償的一個有效的作為請問行政院目前的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].start |
17694.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].end |
17699.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[688].text |
這個跟委員報告在這個提起消費團體訴訟這個區塊我們已經協調了國內兩個優良的消保團體也跟他們做過相關的一些協調協商他們都願意積極來做這次將來的團體訴訟的相關後續的一個處理將來是多久的將來 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].start |
17718.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].end |
17739.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[689].text |
目前来讲的话其实还是在目前来讲因为有30件的一个申诉案件所以那部件我们还是在持续的收集这些申诉的案件那将来的话会有一些相关的一些规划比如说在104年的时候其实那是有发生石米油的相关的事件所以我们会协调这个优良的消保团体那我们会定出相关的一些规范 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].start |
17739.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].end |
17754.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[690].text |
譬如說我們會協請我們的教育部我們的國教署來跟校園的這些受害的這些師生做一些詢問說明會之類的然後收集相關的資料我知道你們動作也很快 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].start |
17755.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].end |
17779.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[691].text |
已经有两家优良的消保团体愿意来承接那在这里就把讯息请彭处长还有我们部长这里协助未来可能学生跟教职员员工在内的校园的集体诉讼的酋长可能会是一个重要必须要去进行的法律的行动我想我们横向联系请行政院来快速来协助我们好吗好下一页 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].start |
17780.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].end |
17801.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[692].text |
剛剛武麗華委員有針對食安法的修法我想我基本上是同意我歸納出未來修法我們要補強這一次三級評管確實讓大家很疑惑4月發生但是我們中央政府到6月30號才明確的接獲到通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].start |
17802 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].end |
17830.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[693].text |
换言之三级的平款的制度我们确实要在法规面去强化所以我提出了这四点归纳也提供给你们未来在修法要做参照当然强化源头的控管我想卫福部已经看到问题了第二个在制程端的严格审查有效的进行试验抽验如果有重大的制程或原料的来源变更的话我想就你们会纳入嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].start |
17830.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].end |
17857.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[694].text |
第三个我也会要求提高业者自主检验的频率而且强制的通报上传当然第三方的通报义务我们引进第三方检验机构的资格认证就可以来杜绝厂商隐匿的这些疑虑我想我归纳出四大的食安修法的方向卫福部是不是都纳入参照快速的启动 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].start |
17857.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].end |
17872.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[695].text |
謝謝委員我們會相關一起來演繹好謝謝那辛苦大家我想明天立法院還有一整天的專報謝謝不好意思部長你辛苦我也請政部長我後面這個問題今天呢來部長辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].start |
17874.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].end |
17896.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[696].text |
我今天赫然发现,招委有另外一个议案今天也排了寻答就是教育经费编列与管理法那也有在野党的委员明确的入法修正要求各级政府教育经费的预算合计 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].start |
17896.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].end |
17906.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[697].text |
不應低於該年度預算籌編時前三年決算稅入淨額平均值的24%從現有的23%的法規提升1%24%問題這1%在中央的預算支出就非常的龐大部長大概是將近400億吧是 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].start |
17923.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].end |
17949.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[698].text |
當然我不需要再贅述對於財政紀律法第五條第七條立法委員不能片面增加政府支出更不得增訂固定的經費額度或比例的保障我都不需要再贅述只是這些立委一而再再而三的要違法來修法下一頁部長這是我們的警訊喔這個表呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].start |
17952.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].end |
17960.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[699].text |
上一週的質詢我只做到ABCD啦現在又加了一個1了 朝偉在拍照很好請記錄喔我們的 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].start |
17963.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].end |
17987.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[700].text |
大學法高級中等教育法專科學校法也就是學代三法強制透過立委的修法片面增加而且中央全負擔一年增加國庫100到400億B就是營養午餐專法下午可能會逐條每年強制要求中央買單又要增加國庫138億 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].start |
17990.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].end |
18014.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[701].text |
C 幼兒教育及照顧法又要求中央地方負擔的額度又強制的來入法中央又大施寫每年要增加400到600億D 國教向下延伸而且是中央買單一次性的硬體增加至少80億而每年常態會增加國庫100億 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].start |
18016.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].end |
18036.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[702].text |
到1ABCDE今天最新的教育經費編列與管理法又因為這個1%的修改每年國庫又要增加400億所以ABCDE加起來教育部每年要增加1138億到1638億plus固定的硬體 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].start |
18045.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].end |
18066.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[703].text |
80億一次每年國家又要有1138到1638億教育部有錢嗎部長我們才化法我們一年教育部少了多少錢教育部少了900多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].start |
18069.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].end |
18077.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[704].text |
我們有不挺教育嗎夏業當我們的國家財政有餘裕我們來看看我從2017年 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].start |
18080.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].end |
18104.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[705].text |
我们所编列的教育预算到2026年我来看这10年间我们total的教育的投入是增加1731亿成长的比例是79.4%换言之成长了80%这是当我们国家有余裕 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].start |
18105.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].end |
18128.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[706].text |
我們一定大力投資在教育上而這個權利是誰的就是行政權行政權可以合理的去分配我對於國家預算的投入這就是具體的數字所以從2017到2025我們每一年都提升8年間增加1731億 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].start |
18132.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].end |
18140.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[707].text |
比起剛剛委員他修改1%每年強制的400我們其實能做的我們絕對大幅的超車啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].start |
18141.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].end |
18167.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[708].text |
而这当中唯一的一年我们的教育经费不减反增是哪一年呢部长就是我们受到才化法冲击中央4165亿被搬走的那一年所以我们从2025国家的教育投资来到3910亿的史上新高被迫因为才化法钱搬到地方去了我们往下修变成3410亿 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].start |
18170.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].end |
18192.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[709].text |
即便如此我們還是大幅成長了56.4%的教育投資所以我要說的是我們重視教育我們加碼教育國家的裁員合理分配教育部絕對拼了命的去爭取預算這每一筆不就是你們爭取來的嗎我們要大聲的告訴社會啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].start |
18198.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].end |
18223.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[710].text |
我們要告訴所有負責任的這些立法委員修法不是那麼簡單你寫了一個數字多一趴少一趴可是對於整個預算權限就是行政權我們難道有虧待預算嗎我們有虧待教育嗎部長我時間到了我就停留在這一個頁面 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].start |
18225.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].end |
18247.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[711].text |
你們好好去論述吧我們這10年間努力的成長了80%的教育預算這是我們的用心陳主委員所提如果把這個財化法以後這個教育部跟行政院的一般補助用在補助地方的這一個整個我們今年事實上的預算事實上是4300億 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].start |
18248.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].end |
18272.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[712].text |
又史上新高了嘛如果沒有硬因為等於切出去的將近900億這個給地方所以我們才會看到這個只有3400好我回到才化法最後一頁要修這個法下一頁可以我們請在野黨委員不要持續冷凍丟包了行政院版的才化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].start |
18273.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].end |
18297.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[713].text |
行政院版的才化法216天216天216天被冷冻了我们替国家人民孩童争取教育预算但是中央地方一起来全责相扶一起来协助教育做得更好而根本就是回到才化法 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].start |
18298.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].end |
18321.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[714].text |
今天委員們片面提出這個教育經費編列的這個管理法片面的在修法卻無視於財政的根本大法才化法還躺在那裡如果如委員今天所提的這個法案連水費電費這些依據地方制度法都應當地方分擔的還有營養午餐強制要中央買單 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].start |
18323.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].end |
18342.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[715].text |
我覺得這才是真正的教育的災難這真的才是教育的災難我剛剛整理了部長就這個會期教育委員會提出來的錢坑肉桶違反行政分立的法案一年教育部製多又要再支出1638億 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].start |
18346.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].end |
18373.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[716].text |
我們真的很難維持教育的品質我們要大方大聲的來說出事實的真相好嗎我們辛苦了一起加油謝謝好請坐下一位許中興委員辛苦了 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].start |
18380.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].end |
18394.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[717].text |
有請政部長有請部長部長好委員好你辛苦阿彌陀佛你非常辛苦我現在第三次進本院委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].start |
18406.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].end |
18434.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[718].text |
那麼我第二次來的時候聽到委員講到政客我嚇一跳是在罵我後來不是那我也聽到委員講到說所時是最重要的我們教育就是最重所時的所以我今天請教部長五分答案我外部委員我還跟國務委員交換 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].start |
18435.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].end |
18461.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[719].text |
才有辦法來跟各位現在質詢這個便當這是我的早餐各位我來這裡登記以後去參加我們行政院聘請了五個聯合國的人權的專家必須要講英文的看我們台灣對婦女有沒有平權所以我勢必要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].start |
18463.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].end |
18488.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[720].text |
那麼我回來以後呢那麼在這裡我們看到我們委員會執行議職研會我跟部長訴苦我兩點還要在黨部去開我們國內住宅年輕人租屋的問題所以我預估這個便當我大概五點才吃得到所以我們一宿你台灣為你勉強一宿 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].start |
18493.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].end |
18521.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[721].text |
所以我們大家都為了台灣很辛苦我為什麼這麼堅決今天即使黨部遲到也要來跟部長請教這個問題您對我們這個問題有我們都仰賴校園食材登錄平台部長您對它的效用您有信心嗎我對我們跟委員報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].start |
18522.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].end |
18533.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[722].text |
我想我們在整個這樣一個平台的運作不是一朝一夕它當然我們有檢核機制剛才署長也跟其他委員做報告我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].start |
18534.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].end |
18560.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[723].text |
任何圖畫不足以置信我們基本上是利益良善而且大部分我們也相信大部分人是遵守規劃的確有改善的空間當我們食藥署7月1號針對問題有品的時候我們這個平台調查出來台中以北才有問題那麼台中以南沒有發現那麼我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].start |
18565.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].end |
18569.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[724].text |
17個縣市沒有調查出問題公佈的品項是有關聯的當我們7月9號食藥署針對產品跟業者這個時候我們比對出來就有360家 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].start |
18586.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].end |
18613.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[725].text |
業者440項產品有問題嘛所以疑似涉及20縣市總共1195校跟園這個數字都是您的報告裡面那表示你們的登錄平台第三波食藥署公布以後是這樣你們的登錄平台主要是針對業者跟產品油品 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].start |
18615.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].end |
18638.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[726].text |
請問部長這個是什麼油做的沙拉油 橄欖油 豬油 蚵油業者如果沒有主動去登錄沙拉油用什麼油你們根據這個平台是查不出來的所以才會有第一次17縣市沒有問題第二次20縣市1市有問題所以問題就在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].start |
18642.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].end |
18659.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[727].text |
這就是我們要改進這個平台確保學生安全食品安全最重要要改進的地方因為我們這個平台是針對食材不是針對產品油是食材大米是食材 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].start |
18660.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].end |
18673.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[728].text |
那我們針對產品去登錄的時候你就忽視了它裡面重要的油品等等這些問題所以我們教育部在這裡是否需要進一步就這一點加以改進 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].start |
18675.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].end |
18693.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[729].text |
謝謝委員提醒我想學生的食安問題是不容打折的也跟委員報告在第一批食藥署公佈主要就是商品生產製造三家後來有相關的產品才會有更多的 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].start |
18700.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].end |
18729.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[730].text |
做这样一个补充但是委员的提醒我想是有价值的就是说以后到底他实际米啊油啊这怎么样确保资讯能够更精准的掌握我想我们在整个系统上来做一个更精准的一个把握谢谢委员指导谢谢好谢谢委员辛苦了谢谢部长下一位有请吴佩奕委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].start |
18736.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].end |
18739.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[731].text |
謝謝主席 我請教育部鄭英耀部長有請鄭部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].start |
18745.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].end |
18773.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[732].text |
委員好部長好這個八威颱風剛剛走那幸好這一次風雨沒有預期當中的那麼大但是還是有一些地區是傳出有災情的那我們就特別關心學校例如說在新竹山區的尖石五峰苗栗的泰安跟南莊都傳出也有道路中斷的那個狀況所以在學校的部分我看到今天新竹是有五所小學還是有受到災情的影響今天是停班停課的 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].start |
18774.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].end |
18789.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[733].text |
這個像尖石鄉有後山的新光國小秀蘭國小石磊國小裕豐國小以及吳豐鄉的桃山國小這些都是我們的偏鄉學校所以我想要請問一下教育部目前有沒有掌握我們這些所在學校目前的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].start |
18790.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].end |
18811.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[734].text |
根文包括確實我們在這個通報系統都有的以這一次的颱風雖然它算是我們也算是這個災害是相對減到降到最低但是實際受影響的學校大大小小還是有54所學校那估計的金額大概也目前回報的大概也將近1000萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].start |
18812.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].end |
18841.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[735].text |
將近一千萬那目前是地方政府來通報給我們教育部嗎在修繕的部分有沒有需要我們教育部經費上面來支持幫忙的就有一些小當然我們有這一個這一個災害準備金就會可以先撥就是說有一些馬上能夠這一個用來支持學校我想我們這個都會跟地方跟學校保持密切聯繫然後錢有一些嚴重的我們事實上還沒有報我們就錢災害準備金就先 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].start |
18842.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].end |
18860.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[736].text |
先预播比如说以去年有一些台南的我们就会先预播500或者1000的是在一个灾情的一个严重伤害的一个程度那这个目前我们所掌握的大概都是虽然造成了伤害但是基本上都还算是比较轻微的 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].start |
18861.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].end |
18884.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[737].text |
是因為風災災損的災損這我們無法避免但都希望說可以趕快來復原這部分就要拜託教育部來多加的關心跟幫忙那另外有受到影響就是分科測驗就是說延期兩天所以今天跟明天來舉行所以這一次我們今年的考生三萬九千多名將近四萬名所以有些考場他可能也在很短的時間之內要趕快重新來去準備那因為我有看到部長跟總次長 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].start |
18888.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].end |
18902.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[738].text |
是昨天都有親自到考場現場去看的我們這個考場受到災害的影響的部分我看應該是不多啦那這個今天已經在考了嘛所以你們昨天去看的時候的狀況是怎麼樣呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].start |
18903.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].end |
18918.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[739].text |
跟委員報告確實因為後來颱風有轉向所以整個那個災害確實造成的影響對我們考場來講基本上都是在認為有一些樹枝這一個或者這一個樹葉大概很快都可以清理那包含我們雖然颱風過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].start |
18921.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].end |
18935.991 |
| transcript.whisperx[740].text |
但是有曾我剛才跟其他委員報告的有部分的包含昨天像今天還有一些停止上班上課的我們擔心那些比如說以我去看的六規高中那學生基本上都出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].start |
18936.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].end |
18959.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[741].text |
只有一位我們當時昨天下午再去看的時候就變成是他已經在路上也回報他是安全的所以今天可以如期的參加考試所以這裡邊所有的包含學生提早出來他的交通跟住宿所有造成的一些外加的這些的成本在我們招聯會這個大考中心都會吸收 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].start |
18960.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].end |
18984.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[742].text |
對這部分就是特別要跟教育部確認的因為雖然風災造成的受施的災害不大但是因為延期所以像很多像人事的費用我看現場很多除我們大考中心工作人員之外像監考人員很多也是我們一線的老師這個當然要謝謝他們幫忙但相關的費用所以這個不是由個別學校來沒有沒有不是由大考中心來前面吸收 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].start |
18984.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].end |
19004.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[743].text |
好這個就是要拜託這個教育部那接下來呢也是大家很關心的有品在校園裡面的安全的問題因為教育部你們盤點出來給我們的數字20個縣市裡面有受到影響的高中以下的學校是861所那幼兒園334所以高中以下這個學校來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].start |
19006.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].end |
19032.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[744].text |
這個佔的是22% 其實超過四分之一幼兒園也佔了5%是有受到就是說他們的食材裡面有用到相關的油品 有營養的油品這個部分四分之一我覺得其實數字相當的高啦所以大家當然是很關切國際教育部做了哪些措施你們說你們透過這個食材登錄的平台去比對然後已經都進行預防性的下架了這部分所謂的快速比對你們是怎麼處理這個過程 流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].start |
19039.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].end |
19053.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[745].text |
跟委員報告第一個就是我們一收到像譬如說7月1號我們一收到我們就用中聯福茂福壽泰山還有用沙拉油這些關鍵字 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].start |
19054.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].end |
19064.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[746].text |
就直接不是只有品牌名称我们连油的名称也直接用关键字来扩大模糊搜集那一搜集出来是1385项还是1385项立即就跟有关线是 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].start |
19071.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].end |
19092.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[747].text |
發送發送之後他們去查批號查批號是不是那個衛福部所公佈的那一天的那一個油品的批號類似這樣我們查證的過程是這樣那那個是第一層油那四家中聯等三家那接著到7月5號6號開始有下一層的商家比如說360家原來講230後來360360那個行政院覺得這個還不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].start |
19101.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].end |
19114.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[748].text |
用到他的产品所以后来有232个产品或是401个产品以及440个产品我们就用那个产品就继续捞就变成了是刚刚讲的这个数字1195项 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].start |
19116.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].end |
19134.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[749].text |
所以这个也是刚好可以跟该徐委员所讲的第一次那个165或是后来的228是指那四家油品直接去搜寻那后来是就第二层的产品他可能某个公司比如说那个 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].start |
19137.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].end |
19156.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[750].text |
有一家咖啡店他去買到了這個油那這個油他去可能做了什麼的那個什麼我們又去擴大去蒐集大概是這樣子這個部分就是要拜託你們因為現在我們全國也是進行的是預防性下架也就是它產期生產在4到6月的不管你批次了 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].start |
19156.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].end |
19175.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[751].text |
我們預防性就是說我們怕有漏掉怕說還沒有查出來結果之後查出來所以都先下架所以拜託你們務必密切的跟地方政府保持聯繫第二個我們要滾動式的康衛福這裡發布到什麼程度我們都要提前預先的來做那再來除了這個停損以外就後續的 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].start |
19176.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].end |
19196.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[752].text |
大家在討論的是這個接下來的團體訴訟的球場因為這學生 孩子因為現在剛好放暑假但是孩子倘若有吃到這樣的這個午餐他是受害者但這個油品不是孩子或家長去賣的所以目前在這個團體訴訟未來要球場的話我們教育部怎麼來協助呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].start |
19200.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].end |
19228.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[753].text |
这个跟委员报告关于求偿这个部分因为受害者真的讲如果是受害者的话绝对不是团散业者也不是学校而是学校的员工跟学生教职员工跟学生所以团体诉讼将来我们为请两个优良消保团体进行团体诉讼的时候就会以这些受害的学生跟教职员工为所谓的请求权让有的对象那由消保团体来进行后续的团体诉讼 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].start |
19228.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].end |
19252.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[754].text |
我看到7月9號就是上禮拜四我們有跟消保團體還有衛福部有一起開了一個會所以你們是有特別註記說這個是涵受害者就涵學生跟教職員工那我今天就是特別想要來拜託教育部再去研擬因為2013年當時我們台北有一個舊案富衛鄉混油案當時這個地方政府他是由教育局 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].start |
19253.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].end |
19273.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[755].text |
然後呢連同學校因為他的採購人也是學校嘛學校也是可能是採購方就學校也可能成為訴訟的主體啦來進行團體訴訟是不是也有這一個軌或這一個方式這個請教育部去把這些過去的案例把它找出來因為其實我看是有相關案例的 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].start |
19274.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].end |
19292.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[756].text |
就是說因為你走消保的話你是說這個教職員或學生我們一起來團體訴訟但今天如果訴訟的主體是學校這可能在處理這個程序上面對家長來講其實可能會更方便一些這個請你們去看看過去倘若有案例是怎麼樣在進行的盡量來協助這個權益的這個救濟跟保障 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].start |
19296.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].end |
19317.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[757].text |
好那我還有點時間是我一定要跟這個部長來關切兩個議題我很關心的第一個是上次我們在這裡有諮詢討論過有關於這個委員有提案要把國教來向下延伸也就是五歲兒童要強迫入學幼兒園的這個提案那因為呢當時我就很擔心說教授未來這會變成是大班要強迫入學嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].start |
19318.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].end |
19335.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[758].text |
那在強迫入學上面學區的分發後續的作業要怎麼樣去做地方政府有沒有這個量能來承接以及我們現在的制度是否來得及修改跟配套所以當時我要求教育部說你們一定務必要去跟地方政府的教育局處來去開會討論了解他們實務上的狀況你們有沒有去了解了 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].start |
19340.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].end |
19358.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[759].text |
確實我們上個禮拜二禮拜三的全國教育局所長會議這個也是一個議題那地方也認為說在此時因為它有強迫性還有連動到我們所有的這個公司又而言包含學校的一個課程是哪些縣市的教育局有來 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].start |
19359.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].end |
19374.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[760].text |
是全國的嗎還是分區的全國的 全國的地方縣市教育局那當然這其中有因為這一個基隆市他的處長因為這個額逆的一個事件他請辭所以是派科長來是 但他們表達的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].start |
19375.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].end |
19396.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[761].text |
基本上就是說大家希望能夠平價幼兒園的這樣一個政策應該繼續推因為它涉及到我們如果當國民教育向下延伸它有強迫性那我們學校的一個教育空間師資課程教材都要有另外那會不會也因為這樣衝擊到既有的私立的幼兒園等等的整體 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].start |
19398.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].end |
19420.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[762].text |
這個大家的一個看法還是說我們還是先把這一個現在對年輕人的一個這個支持啊能夠向客戶的延拖寒暑假然後臨時這裡邊把它落實讓包含區域上的一些這個又拖的這一些資源能夠讓他真正能夠到位我想這一個部分我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].start |
19420.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].end |
19446.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[763].text |
大概那一天的一個會議的結論大概基本上是這樣所以地方政府對於國教向下延伸五歲強迫入選是還有一些不同的意見的這部分第一個是說你們這個會議記錄可不可以提供給我們委員會來參考那我還是要拜託啦就是說在立法院修法以前請你們一定要跟地方政府多溝通也要去尊重地方的意見那最後一點是因為今天的議程裡面排成 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].start |
19448.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].end |
19469.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[764].text |
也是有關校士會議這個過去教育部的修正案本來是被查我們原本把它改成審查案今天要來進行這個部分其實上次質詢我有提醒過因為我覺得還是要去釐清它在議事上面的程序因為根據我們立法院職權行使法第62條因為它是行政命令這個審查後 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].start |
19472.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].end |
19495.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[765].text |
這個我們立法院是只能決議只能通知原定班之機關更正或者廢止也就是說我們只能退回如果要更正也是原定機關今天也就是教育部你們要去更正我們沒有辦法像修法律一樣在這裡直接來去進行內容跟文字上面的修改跟修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].start |
19495.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].end |
19520.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[766].text |
所以說今天如果我們對於這一個它是解聘辦法的這個修正案我們今天在審的是修正案如果說委員會把它退回的話那麼接下來這個解聘辦法會使用的是哪一個版本會變成是修正以前的舊制嗎如果我們把你們的解聘辦法的修正版退回以後那接下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].start |
19522.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].end |
19536.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[767].text |
這個解併辦法是用哪一個哪一個辦法是請這個這個因為也有老師來問我這個問題我覺得還是要把它釐清請各位參考因為這個解釋的權責應該不是在教育部但是這個兩個月內我們要更正過廢止 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].start |
19538.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].end |
19564.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[768].text |
那因為這次的修正僅限於115年1月份的這個修正所以它內容是有限縮的也就是說依照教師法29條裡所授權的這個部分做修正然後之前的校事會議等等這個因為我們之前都有有進行過這個法規命令的一個程序所以那個部分是沒辦法做修正的 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].start |
19565.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].end |
19568.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[769].text |
好 這沒關係 因為我們等一下還會進行討論只是說 我這拜託你們不是解釋單位 但是你們是未來執行單位就現場發生的問題 還是我們教育部來解決所以我會比較擔心 我為什麼擔心這一點因為我們現在新制至少有幾個我覺得很重要比如說我們不能就是我們不接受匿名檢舉有關於這個霸凌案件的然後我們要把它分流 然後要去篩選然後我們要有輔佐人 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].start |
19590.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].end |
19618.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[770].text |
假設現在我好不容易有這個心智當然心智一定要精進我也要求你們要去精進比如說未來要有法律協助啊心理諮商輔導這個專業協助給老師啊等等可是假設你這個心智被退回了要改到舊版馬上要開始來匿名檢舉這個整個倒行逆施我會很擔心所以等一下務必要把它釐清好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席中嘉賓中嘉賓中嘉賓 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].start |
19621.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].end |
19648.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[771].text |
接下來有請洪孟楷委員不好意思先請問一下洪孟楷委員有要請食安辦主任說明嗎沒有的話因為他還有宴會要先讓你來沒問題可以嗎可以好OK好那請部長跟這個衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].start |
19650.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].end |
19655.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[772].text |
次長是不是請林靜儀政務次長然後跟我們教育部教育部政部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].start |
19658.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].end |
19682.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[773].text |
好 我先請教一下次長 衛福部的相關我們現在看到是說這兩天又爆發是說到底中聯4月到6月生產多少噸的食用油我們有沒有掌握有 中聯我們總共29個批次那它每一個槽是1300噸所以全部目前是預防性下架那整個如果是全部算起來的話是 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].start |
19683.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].end |
19683.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[774].text |
57萬噸27532.7公噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].start |
19695.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].end |
19723.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[775].text |
兩萬多公噸這幾個批次4月到6月29個批次那我們看到新聞有報導是說昨天石崇良部長還講是說現在是預防性下架13個批次所以到底是現在預防性下架13個批次還是29個批次我們29個批次裡面目前都請他們目前這29個批次全部都是預防性下架那其中到現在有查到有問題的是5個批次 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].start |
19724.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].end |
19747.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[776].text |
五個批次所以其實從一開始的一個批次兩個批次到現在五個批次會來會不會再增加不知道但是現在所影響的食用油致癌的已經高達了不是一千三百噸是現在有可能我們以最壞的打算的話可能兩萬多噸那現在幾個批次是有問題的五個批次那五個批次總量多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].start |
19752.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].end |
19758.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[777].text |
一桶是1300所以現在這五個P4是5756.7公噸所以至少現在食藥署衛福部確認的五千多公噸是有問題了對 這五千多公噸是必須下架好 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].start |
19769.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].end |
19793.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[778].text |
市長那我請教到目前為止源頭知道了嗎中聯對中聯為什麼會產生致癌油製程的問題製程對它的製程過程目前在我們當然這個部分還會在後續再跟專家討論不過6月30收到目前為止我們看到媒體也好或說你們相關的食藥署的報告裡面都沒有講到說到底是源頭運輸製程還是哪一個環節出了問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].start |
19795.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].end |
19816.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[779].text |
目前在6月30收到通知之後我們在7月份跟專家的會議裡面目前認為是他們在整個製程過程中的品管所以品管的問題目前認為是品管就是不符合HACCP那這個過程裡面它有好幾個我們其實在品管上必須要設立的節點那中聯這邊並沒有達到一定的標準所以次長這樣很明顯這件事情是徹底的人禍 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].start |
19823.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].end |
19842.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[780].text |
對不對因為品管如果說出了問題然後還有檢驗沒有辦法檢驗檢驗如果說他又知道然後他又造假這個相關的數據的話這是徹底的人禍造假這個部分目前就是讓檢調來做調查所以說我們現在要釐清的是說到底我們影響有多廣我們現在可以釐清那四月以前呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].start |
19843.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].end |
19863.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[781].text |
有沒有相關的問題因為如果說你現在這樣講的話自成有問題那我想請教一下中聯它從過去到現在自成了多少批會不會其實前年去年如果就您剛剛講自成我們最後一次不管是地方政府或是中央部會我們去稽查中聯是什麼時候的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].start |
19864.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].end |
19876.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[782].text |
委員這個部分我們其實111年到114年我們是有食藥署是有這一個食用油脂製造業稽查專案那地方縣市政府在111年到114年所以2025年所以中聯什麼時候被建因為現在是三大系統嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].start |
19883.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].end |
19904.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[783].text |
全台灣三大系統業者嘛如果說以食用油來講的話中聯算是其中之一嘛他生產的一個食用油算是全台灣三分之一那我們現在想要問的是只有四月五月六月有問題嗎之前呢如果說就市長你剛剛告訴國人的是製程的問題那他用這樣的一個製程方法多久了 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].start |
19905.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].end |
19932.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[784].text |
我們這樣子說我們當然一開始會把他抓在4月是因為我們在6月30收到通報他是在4月4號的那一天你會抓到是因為4月4號那也是南橋查出來南橋查出來再跟那個福壽福壽再往上講所以我們拉制就是南橋他後來這樣一路找到6月30跟我們通報之後我們往前拉那個是因為還有吹哨者或是說他們這個上下游那上下游廠商他們自己查出來嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].start |
19933.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].end |
19951.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[785].text |
但是現在本席的問題又更精進了本席的問題是說那這樣子我們食藥署或衛福部能夠確認只有四月到五月六月嗎那往前呢他到底做假了多久我們現在這個部分是不是做假他這邊做假的程度是什麼這個部分我們現在檢調正在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].start |
19952.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].end |
19968.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[786].text |
剛剛提到111到114年的使用油脂這個部分專案其實查核起來在當時不論是GHP就是我們講的那個標準我們資料裡面是204家地方政府報上來都是合格的不是啊所以說至少市長你剛剛跟我們講的是說從111年到114年我們的專案那從114年之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].start |
19974.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].end |
19998.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[787].text |
是不是我們都可以合理懷疑他其實製程師有問題114年之後現在我們在115年由地方衛生局給我們的資料裡面目前都是合格的來那個部長我們請教一下部長剛剛次長也講了這件事情不是只是像一開始爆發說1300噸雖然1300噸我們聽起來已經很大了很多了但原來現在有問題叫做5000多噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].start |
20002.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].end |
20025.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[788].text |
五千多噸而且四月五月六月他其實生產了兩萬多噸其中現在被檢驗出來有五千多噸可能有問題或說數據造假那還有多少沒有檢出來不知道那我們比較focus在是學童的一個部分那我想請教過去就至少這三個月五千多噸裡面有流向多少是流到校園我們有沒有個數量統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].start |
20027.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].end |
20047.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[789].text |
根文報告這個確實就我手邊我是比較不清楚但是你要告訴我說有多少的油品總量當然啊部長你不覺得這重要嗎過去這幾個月我們有問題的油現在衛福部告訴我們有問題的油叫做5000多噸不是一開始的1300噸 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].start |
20048.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].end |
20063.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[790].text |
那我們想要問是五千多噸有多少已經被我們的學端吃掉了只要食藥署公佈的我們馬上立即就在所以你知不知道現在有五千多噸現在知道了 謝謝現在知道了 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].start |
20064.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].end |
20082.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[791].text |
我們今天討論了半天然後結果衛福部的資料到底有沒有跟教育部跟相關部會來去做一個勾結或是釐清所有的這個品項我們就全面下降這一個是我跟委員保證的學童到底吃了多少不知道是不是現在沒有這個統計 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].start |
20086.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].end |
20099.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[792].text |
怎麼了 這個問題不能問嗎 部長委員 我們現在部長 這個問題不能問嗎 可以問啦因為今天小孩子他吃飯吃了多少他裡面到底含油量對不起 我不是這方面的專家所以你要去統計啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].start |
20101.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].end |
20122.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[793].text |
所以你應該要統計所以應該部長我覺得這個問題有意義有意義在哪裡第一今天是擠牙膏式的一開始跟我們講1300噸後來講是3P後來講5P現在剛剛講了5000多公噸那5000多公噸如果我們沒有辦法理解或者掌握我們的血統到底有多少如果說你在意的話那你就不會現在還講不出這個數字再者 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].start |
20130.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].end |
20151.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[794].text |
部長剛剛還有委員剛剛還有委員在這邊剛剛還有委員站在這邊部長你不用在那邊問A答B啊剛剛還有委員在這邊講說後續的球場如果你現在都還不知道到底有學童吃了多少的致癌物質的油的話你要怎麼協助球場 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].start |
20153.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].end |
20177.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[795].text |
你要怎麼協助球場 你要怎麼協助球場是嘛 欸 一個多禮拜過去了欸一個多禮拜過去了 你今天 我們今天開這個專案會議你難道不知道是說要問這相關的問題嗎一個多禮拜過去了 難道不知道應該要跟國小國中幼稚園來釐清說到底我們有多少的致癌友已經流入校園了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].start |
20180.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].end |
20204.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[796].text |
你現在跟我裝無辜在裝什麼無辜啊我要跟委員報告是只要食藥署公布的我們不合格的品項我們全部22個縣市都全部下架這個是我在學校裡面我確保它是這一個不會再你講得很好聽但是我現在就講是說連剛剛我問出來說有5000多公噸那我怎麼知道說5000多公噸到底有沒有確實下架對不起委員問我這樣的一個我沒有辦法回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].start |
20205.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].end |
20212.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[797].text |
我問你有很標專的問題嗎這個問題難道不是我們全國家長想要知道的嗎這就是我們教育部部長想要告訴國人的部分部長為什麼本期會特別在跟你講因為在這中間你還去了哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].start |
20228.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].end |
20237.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[798].text |
這中間你還去地方輔選耶連衛福部部長都知道避嫌就知道說6月30號爆發事件的時候就不要去了這個資訊是不對的來 什麼資訊不對我現在在講是7月4號我現在在講7月4號本席在講7月4號來 部長本席在講7月4號這一場活動在新竹 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].start |
20257.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].end |
20282.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[799].text |
是6月30號爆發油品事件了本來你要跟衛福部長一起去的衛福部長都知道要避嫌了衛福部長不去就換經濟部長結果你還去啊我要跟委員報告來哪裡不對任何一個人只要他想要知道我們國家教育政策怎麼推動只要我時間允許我都樂意去分享所以那一天是誰邀請您去的 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].start |
20283.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].end |
20310.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[800].text |
是,這一個台灣智庫的執行長台灣智庫執行長?是在哪邊?台灣智庫執行長貴姓大名啊?莊執行長喔,這一位啊?只要任何有人想要了解教育政策,只要我時間我都樂意當天是台灣智庫的莊進程執行長邀請您去的?是 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].start |
20311.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].end |
20338.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[801].text |
主動跟您電話聯絡跟我的秘書聯絡跟您秘書聯絡是就可以來你看一下它上面的title是寫什麼它不是寫台灣智庫它是新竹市長候選人我任何去的行程今天是一個新竹市長候選人然後結果就可以直接跟我們教育部的秘書來聯繫然後教育部長就可以親自出席哇surprise |
| transcript.whisperx[802].start |
20339.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].end |
20364.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[802].text |
真的是顛覆國人的認知尤其是在我們已經爆發6月30號已經爆發食用油危機之後大家都要釐清是說到底什麼狀況結果我們教育部長居然還可以因為一位縣市長候選人邀請然後你就可以走網我跟委員長歡迎委員吊我的這個電話紀錄我事實上還當天打電話給署長說這個整個油品一定要再重新抽體檢查一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].start |
20365.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].end |
20372.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[803].text |
最後啊你看很多的新聞啊很多的新聞啊都在講說這個不只是問我我到底哪裡可以去哪裡不能去我如果有健在教育基本的職責你來挑戰我 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].start |
20386.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].end |
20404.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[804].text |
來我不用挑戰你來部長我直接跟你講過去馬政府時代的時候怎麼對待我們的政務官的過去馬政府時代的時候也有教育部長他只是出席一個初選場合他還沒有上台分享就已經被戰友黨抨擊並且當時的行政院長還講說 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].start |
20408.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].end |
20435.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[805].text |
是自由公民的權利但是法務部教育部國防部警政署等單位應該保持行政中立不宜服選這是當時國民黨執政時候馬政府的態度對於政務官的態度對於法務部教育部國防部跟警政署單位應該保持行政中立不宜服選現在是民進黨執政之下對於我們的教育的態度是這個樣子尤其是 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].start |
20437.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].end |
20456.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[806].text |
尤其是在食安油爆發的時候還用這樣子的一個態度人民會看在眼裡所以最後不清楚目前到底有多少的食用油被吃掉校園裡面消化多少食用油我們回收多少食用油致癌的不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].start |
20457.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].end |
20463.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[807].text |
衛福部現在講五千多公噸教育部現在還沒有辦法掌握這就是現在部會的狀況明天行政院長專案報告本期還是希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].start |
20473.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].end |
20499.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[808].text |
衛福部相關同仁要給全國國人最清楚的答案那尤其是我們還有一個行政院的食品安全匯報六個月開一次必要時候可以臨時召開這個部分也要考慮是不是現在應該要建議行政院長以行政院長之資召集跨部會來做相關的匯報以上 謝謝好 謝謝部長有請 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].start |
20503.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].end |
20526.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[809].text |
林建啟 林建啟 林建啟王宏威 王宏威 王宏威今天登記的諮詢委員均已發言完畢詢答結束對於委員諮詢的要求提供相關的資料為即時答覆的部分請相關機關尽速以書面答覆另有委員張雅玲 傅坤祺吳宗憲 徐欣盈 林建啟 葛如君提出書面諮詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].start |
20530.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].end |
20531.244 |
| transcript.whisperx[810].text |
可以先行离席以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].start |
20561.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].end |
20562.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[811].text |
铁路线路线 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].start |
20588.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].end |
20589.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[812].text |
這是藥術啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].start |
22131.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].end |
22147.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[813].text |
好現在繼續開會進行審查行政命令有兩案首先審查教育部含維修正高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘之前辦法部分條文案現在有委員提案一案請議事人員宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].start |
22149.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].end |
22172.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[814].text |
提案 教育部於15年1月12日完成高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘填聘後之前辦法部分條文修正案經第五會起教育及文化委員會第十七次全體委員會議仍認為有待修正之處請教育部修正後再送立法院被查一 立法院職權行之法第62條規定提報立法院院會決議後 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].start |
22175.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].end |
22194.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[815].text |
通知教育部更正该办法提案人罗田伟、岳言之、蔡春丑、罗志强宣读完毕好请提案委员现场有没有什么要表示意见的请机关代表表示意见 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].start |
22205.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].end |
22206.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[816].text |
麥克風麥克風有肩膀還有圍巾 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].start |
22219.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].end |
22246.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[817].text |
好 謝謝昭偉那昭偉所提的這一個按照立院職權行使法來處理這些因更正的這個方向那早上也有委員提到說為了讓教育部在做更正的時候比較聚焦不會更正了之後又沒有辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].start |
22247.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].end |
22248.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[818].text |
不好意思 所以請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].start |
22276.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].end |
22278.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[819].text |
機關就現在的文字部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].start |
22286.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].end |
22311.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[820].text |
跟委員報告因為這一次兩個辦法的修正裡頭有關解併辦法的部分有修正的重點有七個部分就如我們書面報告所提到的其中有一些修正的重點其實現在都已經在執行而且是有成效的是不是能夠請 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].start |
22315.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].end |
22329.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[821].text |
在提案的時候我們稍微做一點修正好 請給我一個修正的文字因為早上部長在答詢的時候也提到說在我們全國教育局處長會議的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].start |
22331.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].end |
22357.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[822].text |
有提到授權地方對於調合或調處機制的一個架構的建議我想這個部分所以在一字一條的部分我們似乎可以再做一些思考就由我們教育部來架構整個讓他能夠做好預防的一個措施我想這個是委員們可以來思考的往這個方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].start |
22357.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].end |
22380.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[823].text |
所以不好意思因為依照文字上面寫說請教育部修正後再送立法院備查你的方法你去修正嘛就不要全部都需要更正啦因為有一些部分已經都修正重點都已經在實施而且有效力了所以是不是就那個部分同意備查就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].start |
22382.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].end |
22402.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[824].text |
沒有沒有沒有正義的部分我們就同意被查然後有正義的部分我們退回我們教育部來做更正因為我們沒辦法逐條我們就是整個被查跟整個退回要求重新訂正再送院被查所以基本上的話沒有所謂的保留跟部分條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].start |
22403.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].end |
22415.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[825].text |
跟趙偉報告好像法務部這邊好像有給我們一個以前有這樣的一個潛力的樣子是不是能夠請法務部這邊提供一些沒關係 歡迎你提出請問是汪南君參事嗎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].start |
22421.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].end |
22436.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[826].text |
是跟委員報告跟召委報告有關這一部分基本上我們是看這個立法院職權刑事法62條的第一項規定似乎是行政命令交付委員會審查後是要提報院會議決 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].start |
22438.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].end |
22464.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[827].text |
那如果要退回的話就是我們俗稱退回就是通知原定班機關更正廢紙的話還是要有一些要件就是違反或者是有變更或抵觸法律的狀況下有逾越母法的授權範圍或者是會變更法律效果那可能還是有比較有具體的事項可以就這部分人退回的話這樣子讓原定班機關可以做比較好的修正以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].start |
22467.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].end |
22473.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[828].text |
請陳委員謝謝莊委您的這個提案其實本席認為說現在的校士會議辦法目前的這個程序分流跟審議的機制如果以教師法第29條明確授權者定義經濟範圍其實沒有逾越這個謀法授權的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].start |
22485.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].end |
22508.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[829].text |
校士會議因為涉及教師學生以及家長三方的權益那民進黨團我們在29號我們有提出一個臨時提案是有要求教育部在9月底之前針對第三方調查權等這個機制來進行研議這是第一條第二個部分就是教育部應該跟就是就這個保障教師 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].start |
22510.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].end |
22539.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[830].text |
的部分依法管教權依管教權來建立防濫數及這個完善相對的機制我意思就是說我們在29號我們有提這個靈體就是希望教會部可以持續來蒐集各方的意見那作為就這個校師會議這個辦法檢討的依據那其實您在提案裡面其實您沒有很明確的指出說他們有在哪一個這個辦法有去違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].start |
22541.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].end |
22551.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[831].text |
法律或是愉悅母法授權這個範圍所以我想你這樣子如果沒有很實質的那你要讓教育部來修正的部分其實並沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].start |
22554.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].end |
22576.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[832].text |
所以如果有問題的話請委員提出你的辦法那我的意思是說我們在7月6月29號的時候就提零體就是希望說教育部在9月底之前他們要做這個相關的依據的這個期程規劃以及這個整個辦法的修正的這個規劃那是不是也等他們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].start |
22577.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].end |
22593.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[833].text |
收集相關的意見那以這個領提的這個當初的這個結論就是說9月底之前提出然後我們再來根據這個部分大家來討論以上謝謝主席好那請問教育部有要提出你的文字修正嗎好我們現場休息5分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].start |
23407.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].end |
23429.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[834].text |
好現場我們繼續來處理委員提案第一案剛剛提案的委員以及主管機關都有說明我們現在要來處理本案是否照案通過請問有無異議主席我們還是要發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].start |
23432.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].end |
23443.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[835].text |
可不可以先見請先不要處理我們先持續討論到因為這個案子本身現在提案就有問題啊所以這不是有沒有意義的問題是這個提案本身就有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].start |
23445.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].end |
23471.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[836].text |
那除非張偉你可以指出他們現在送到立法院來被查的這個修法內容你覺得哪裡是有違反母法的早上所有的委員都已經說過如果他沒有違反母法他就只是送立法院被查那我們為什麼要針對這個沒有違反母法的教育部的提案然後現在是羅廷偉張偉說要把它撤回叫他們重新更正那我們覺得你的這個提案本身就是有問題的啊那我們為什麼要針對有問題的提案來處理呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].start |
23478.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].end |
23478.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[837].text |
還有委員有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].start |
23492.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].end |
23495.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[838].text |
因為很明顯 訂定辦法就是行政機關依法有據的權責辦法就是行政機關的權責那如果今天你立法院要求要退回或要求教育部要修正這個相關辦法對 我就還是要問 那依據是什麼它違反了哪個母法的依據那目的又是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].start |
23516.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].end |
23523.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[839].text |
所以我覺得應該是有義務就是說 朝偉你排了這個案那你應該有義務要向 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].start |
23524.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].end |
23550.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[840].text |
教育部也要向全國的國人說明清楚啊那如果根據立法院職權行使法第62條行政命令經審查後發現有違反變更或抵觸法律者或因以法律規定事項而以命令定之者應提報院會經一決後通知原定班之機關更正或廢止之 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].start |
23551.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].end |
23576.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[841].text |
所以請問還是要請教提案委員跟黨團就是說你們今天審查這個相關辦法到底哪個字抵觸了法律那如果你沒有辦法清楚點出來那我們今天討論的標的到底是什麼那我們在這裡討論這件事情的目的到底是什麼那還是說其實在野黨實際上就是只要求要廢除廢除消失會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].start |
23578.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].end |
23596.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[842].text |
那如果是這樣那也請在野黨要負責任的跟全國的家長跟學生大聲說出來你要廢除消失會議以上好 跟委員特別報告剛剛的提案很清楚的寫請教育部修正後再送立法院備查 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].start |
23600.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].end |
23619.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[843].text |
主席謝謝我先說一下你要叫教育部修正後再送立法院備查看起來好像很有道理就好像有一個小孩他教了他的作業部給老師老師看都不看也不知道他是不是有寫錯字或是造錯句子就退回告訴他重寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].start |
23620.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].end |
23632.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[844].text |
問題是老師你改都沒有改你就叫我退回去重寫這不是很莫名其妙嗎現在教育部送到立法院被查的內容我不確定委員你看了沒有羅廷偉教委你看了沒如果你看了之後你認為他有哪一條的寫法他有違反教師法的母法那你找出錯誤了你用紅筆把它圈起來退回去叫教育部修改 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].start |
23642.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].end |
23660.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[845].text |
我認為今天所有坐在這裡的民進黨委員都不會有意見可是你現在是連改都不改紅筆連圈都沒有圈你就退回教育部重改那我不知道教育部退回去他要改什麼除非就像剛剛李一錦委員說的如果國民黨委員認為就是全面廢除而且是立刻全面廢除校事會議那就請教委你勇敢講出來你對全國的家長對全國的學生交代啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].start |
23664.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].end |
23680.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[846].text |
那你現在沒有講出來就叫人家退回去那請問他要改什麼他改了十遍二十遍你都不會滿意因為你沒有告訴他你覺得他錯在哪裡再不用講的是你今天是立法委員他跟母法母法是什麼是教師法校師會議是根據教師法當年修法而來的你也沒有告訴他他到底違反了教師法什麼你現在退回去他到底要改什麼嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].start |
23694.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].end |
23713.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[847].text |
好 我們有請羅志祥委員發言首先按照我們立法院過去的那個往例那關於這審查行政命令的過程當中有時候處理是以逾越母法等這些理由來退回 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].start |
23713.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].end |
23732.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[848].text |
但也有曾經在95年的時候針對國民小學及國民中學班級編制及教職員員額編制準則仍未以94年11月24日本委員會決議之理由確實修正罔顧名譽及實際狀況故意退回 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].start |
23735.35 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].end |
23754.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[849].text |
他也有不是從今天直接你們說的所謂的違反法規那個漁業母法的這個部分來做退回那是以所謂的罔顧民意跟實際狀況但我舉這個例子就是說基本上都有成立啦可是不管怎麼說既然這個昭緯這邊有這個提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].start |
23756.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].end |
23783.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[850].text |
那這個提案教育部也說明了嘛那說明了以後這個昭偉覺得這邊這個提案人覺得基本上他不能接受他希望還是按照他的提案來做那回到我們今天的議事程序的話那既然沒有辦法達成共識那就請昭偉就直接就處理了嘛那民進黨立委也表達意見了那這個提案民進黨立委也可以表達反對啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].start |
23784.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].end |
23786.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[851].text |
那就可以立刻做意識上的處理 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].start |
23787.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].end |
23813.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[852].text |
好 首先先回應一下委員剛剛委員說我們連內文都沒有看都沒有任何的舉出錯誤就要求退回我想我們已經辦過公聽會那也多次的質詢所有的委員在質詢的過程也都提出了建言包括調和機制包括許多的教師權益我想教育部應該比誰都更清楚他錯在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].start |
23814.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].end |
23830.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[853].text |
那今天早上呢也特別邀請了第一線的教師來到現場講解校師會議在執行的過程造成老師的負擔爛數也希望能夠更明確的去修改相關的辦法來接住所有第一線的老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].start |
23831.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].end |
23846.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[854].text |
所以我们在提出这第一案我们希望部分条文修正案经第五期会期的教育文化委员会第17次全体委员会议认为有待修正之处请教育部修正后再送立法院备查 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].start |
23847.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].end |
23873.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[855].text |
一立法院職權行使法62條提報立法院院會決議通知教育部更正該辦法我的提案非常清楚簡單明瞭也希望直接來處理以上那如果有委員有意見的話也希望委員提出自己的版本再來相互探討然後如果沒有的話我們就待會要直接進行處理這一個提案了有請陳秀寶委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].start |
23876.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].end |
23891.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[856].text |
謝謝我想我剛剛已經有發言過但是我覺得還是要再講一下您有說你的版本裡面你覺得說教育部就是要修正但是我很想知道說您是對這個辦法裡面的哪一條哪一款哪一項您覺得需要修正或者說您剛才講的說是防濫素的機制它不夠完備的話是不是也可以在你的提案裡面寫出來您覺得說是在這個辦法裡面的防濫素機制不夠完備應該再怎麼改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].start |
23901.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].end |
23925.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[857].text |
是具體的點出來說讓教育部知道說他們有哪裡不夠精進哪裡需要再更完備一點這個部分我希望說主席您可以很明確的表達因為其實我們自己身在教育我們也非常關心這個關乎到教師關心到學生關心到家長關心到整個學校關心整個教育體制的運作我們都很希望說它是一個好的辦法協助到各個需要協助的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].start |
23926.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].end |
23949.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[858].text |
但是今天您提的這個案子我真的理解不出來就是說您希望教育部它本身它去修正的在哪一點到底是哪一條哪一款哪一項或者是說哪一個方式哪一個方法在使用的時候沒有那麼貼近現場是不是可以很具體的指出來讓教育部他們去思考並且去依著他們所收集到的意見大家對這個來仔細的討論對教育部才是一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].start |
23954.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].end |
23974.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[859].text |
具體的建議 一個見解 還有一個做法的方向那您這樣說 請教育部修正後那到底它是要修正哪裡全部修正嗎每一條嗎 每一款嗎這個部分我現在請主席這邊您再理解一下您自己的提案給出來的訊息到底是什麼 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].start |
23976.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].end |
23992.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[860].text |
好再一次回答所有的委員我們已經辦過公聽會了在公聽會所有的教師代表都非常清楚明確指出相關的教師會議辦法有明確的疏失罔顧民意也必須要相關的修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].start |
23993.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].end |
24019.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[861].text |
那我們也透過好幾次的質詢所有的委員給予建議今天早上也邀請了我們第一線的教師來到現場講述我們在第一線教學過程的一個困難還有校師會議的爛數甚至多起我們很多教育現場的新聞都可以讓教育部直接參考了解他們需要哪裡改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].start |
24020.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].end |
24027.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[862].text |
那我想教育部如果還不知道自己錯在哪裡還需要我們來給他指點那我想之前的質詢公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].start |
24030.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].end |
24059.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[863].text |
早上的老師現場來說明是不是都變成都完全無效我想這個部分在我的提案已經很清楚的說明我們希望依照立法委員資權新司法第62條請教育部修正以後再送來立法院繼續被查以上我們就依順序吧郭玉琴委員陳佩玉委員吳佩玉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].start |
24062.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].end |
24084.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[864].text |
我還是要複製一下剛剛其實我們的委員所提出來的到底要教育部回去修正什麼那是修正哪一條你覺得有違反法律有哪一條法規的命令是違反行政權然後在哪一條需要有確實的一個修正再送回來我們的立法院被查 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].start |
24085.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].end |
24112.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[865].text |
到底是哪一條所以如果沒有具體寫出來的話那現在到底我們是要修正哪一個部分還是是對內容文字上的修正還是對於所謂的辦法上面的行使上的一個修正其實我們現在從光這一個提案當中其實我們是完全看不出來可不可以再請這個提案的委員再更仔細的來敘述一下好以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].start |
24116.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].end |
24120.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[866].text |
有舉手的委員請陳佩玉委員好我想要先在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].start |
24122.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].end |
24146.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[867].text |
把罗廷伟的委员的提案念一遍提案教育部于115年1月12日完成高级中等以下学校教师解聘不续聘停聘或资浅办法部分条文修正案都好经第五会期教育及文化委员会第17次全体委员会议仍认为有待修正之处都好 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].start |
24147.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].end |
24151.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[868].text |
請教育部依立院職權行使法第62條規定修正後 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].start |
24155.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].end |
24181.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[869].text |
在送立法院被查提報立法院院會議決後通知教育部更正該辦法提案人羅廷偉聯署人葉元之蔡川愁還有羅志強這個是羅廷偉委員你的提案剛剛你也自己一直說立法院職權行使法第62條62條是怎麼寫的呢他說行政命令經過審查之後發現有違反變更或抵觸法律者 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].start |
24182.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].end |
24198.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[870].text |
或應該以法律規定的事項而以命令定之者應提報院會經議決後通知原定班之機關更正或廢止之所以我現在看不出來在羅委員的提案裡面一 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].start |
24199.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].end |
24223.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[871].text |
完全沒有明白的書寫並且揭示到底交易部現在送來的這個草案裡頭有哪一條哪一個字哪一個版本有違反變更或抵觸法律所以我認為提案委員跟聯署的委員並沒有負責任的對國人交代到底你們所認為違反命令的部分是哪一個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].start |
24224.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].end |
24247.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[872].text |
再來我要說他必須要提報院會是因提報院會經一決後所以也不是我們委員會今天可以處理的還有你現在所寫的所謂待修正之處其實跟法規要件也不合接下來我要再次提醒提案的委員如果您所認為的不足如果到時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].start |
24247.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].end |
24267.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[873].text |
跟教育部所認為的還要再修正的又不一樣那是不是要再一次在委員會再處理這個事情也就是如果委員你真的認為哪裡有所謂的違反抵觸的魔法你應該要明白具體的指出這是一個負責任的問政的立委所必須要做的事情所以我完全看不出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].start |
24267.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].end |
24296.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[874].text |
接下來是如果你真的認為有錯那就請你在這個提案裡面把錯的地方寫出來最後我要提醒辦過公聽會辦過質詢邀請現場老師來說明這些人沒有義務也沒有責任幫羅庭委員在這一份不負責任的提案裡面背書我再強調一次公聽會的內容也好所有委員的質詢也好所有家長的發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].start |
24297.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].end |
24321.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[875].text |
都不可以拿來為這一份不負責任的提案背書請委員一碼歸一碼把你真的認為有抵觸法律的部分清清楚楚的寫下來說出來讓教育部如果真的在院會處理後他們必須要去修正那他們才於理有據而且他知道您所要的東西到底是什麼以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].start |
24325.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].end |
24339.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[876].text |
好有請吳佩儀委員好這個因為校事會議尤其這個解聘辦法其實我們都認為應該要修改也認為應該要精進我們也都這樣要求教育部但是因為我們今天坐在這裡我們是因為是立法委員才有辦法來進行相關的審議所以我覺得我們還是要回到這個母法 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].start |
24344.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].end |
24352.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[877].text |
尤其立法院的職權刑事法因為現在這個委員的提案當中特別來去援引了立法院職權刑事法第62條但是62條的規定就是除非這個辦法它有違反法令 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].start |
24360.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].end |
24389.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[878].text |
才有後續的要教育部來更正或者是退回廢紙那麼所以按照現在我們尊重委員的提案但是按照現在這個提案的內容我會無法進行審議因為這個提案本身是違反立法院職權刑事法的剛剛有講到說過去有其他的案例但是其他委員會案例怎麼審或者是過去怎麼審不代表我們現在就要這麼做我們還是要回到我會要求我們還是要回到母法 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].start |
24391.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].end |
24411.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[879].text |
這個很重要那另外呢還是尊重委員的提案啦只是說在這個提案內容文字當中我們看不出來這個如何的是依據立法院職權行使法62條因為並沒有去提到違法的事項但是如果按照剛剛委員說要修正的文字就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].start |
24412.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].end |
24438.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[880].text |
人認為有待修正之處請教育部依立法院職權行使法第62條規定修正後再送立法院備查提包立法院院會議決後通知教育部更正該辦法這個修正的文字我也認為也有問題因為按照你現在的文字你是說請教育部修正完送來備查修正完了這一份備查了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].start |
24440.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].end |
24453.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[881].text |
還要再教育部再去更正按照你現在這個文字的寫法是這個樣子等於要做兩次的修正那到底是修正哪一個內容因為看起來我們應該是只要一次修正所以這個文字落得也有問題如果還是堅持要這樣提案的話這個文字應該要把它修改否則這個程序會很奇怪已經立法院退回修完立法院備查之後還要再去更正 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].start |
24470.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].end |
24493.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[882].text |
這個不太對這個文字等會還要再修改那麼因為這個提案如果還是委員堅持要做這樣的提案因為我認為這個是違背了我們立法院職權刑事法所以等一下如果堅持在沒有共識的情況下還要強行表決的話我會認為我們沒有辦法去針對這個本身就違反立法院職權刑事法的內容去進行表議因為我們是立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].start |
24498.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].end |
24509.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[883].text |
我們沒有辦法去違背法令我該怎麼樣去行使我的職權是由法律在規範我的所以這個提案我認為還是要修改到符合法律的規範我們再來進行審議這樣應當比較合適 好 謝謝好 還有委員要發言嗎好 吳立華委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].start |
24520.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].end |
24536.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[884].text |
好 謝謝主席我這邊一樣的意見但是我就是要表達一下那個整個歷程因為我們關於校事會議的部分曾經兩個召委一個排過公聽會 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].start |
24537.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].end |
24561.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[885].text |
另外一個也排過專報當時我們也做了很多的要求像兩週前我就是特別做了一個臨時提案跟大家就是具體的要求說9月要提出一個具體的關於第三方調查機制的規劃或者期程的一個可行性 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].start |
24562.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].end |
24579.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[886].text |
那另外也提到說我們所最在意的就是教師的一個管教權還有呢防止這個濫訴檢舉失衡提供一個完善的教師的救濟制度當時也有邀請說法務部要來協助這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].start |
24581.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].end |
24602.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[887].text |
那在更早之前呢也有要求過說這個1月初公告施行上路的這個版本呢希望可以試行半年那7月15號呢也可以給我們提供一個這半年實施以來的一個延期報告那早上聽到 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].start |
24604.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].end |
24609.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[888].text |
國教署教育部這邊也已經在7月7號8號的全國教育局處長會議當中也都有去提了所以我不曉得說我們之前提的這些我們還在眼巴巴的要等著看這一些分析報告要看到這一些有關相關的教師輔導管教辦法的一個修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].start |
24629.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].end |
24651.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[889].text |
或者是我們老師的一個救濟制度結果現在突然跑出來一個說要根據立法院的職權行使法第62條來去做這樣的一個更正或廢止那它就會牽涉到所謂的那到底真的是因為有違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].start |
24651.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].end |
24674.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[890].text |
抵觸嗎 那也很想聽聽看就是教育部法治單位這邊又或者是法務部這邊對這樣的一個看法如果在質詢當中已經很明確的表達說並無抵觸違法的部分那我就是不太曉得說那我們等一下要表決不知道是什麼樣的一個狀態 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].start |
24675.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].end |
24688.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[891].text |
到底一能不能够表决二那表决之后它的效果又是如何所以这个部分我也想说想听一听教育部这边再给我们做一个说明谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].start |
24693.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].end |
24708.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[892].text |
主席 針對這個提案在這裡做個說明因為事實上我們已經辦了好幾次有關於校事會議的一些質詢有很多委員也提出很多的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].start |
24710.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].end |
24714.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[893].text |
我們都可以從這個執行當中發現其實有很多瑕疵造成老師身心受害我在這裡是要建議譬如說我曾經有執行過老師因為他在聯絡部加了一句話之後就受了四個月的爛數讓老師身心疲乏 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].start |
24733.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].end |
24736.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[894].text |
像這樣子的一個案例我們也有提出一個辦法來說你要如何來遏止這樣的一個狀況能夠盡量讓校長還有老師不要第一線就受傷害我也提供說我們可以建立一個知行委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].start |
24754.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].end |
24758.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[895].text |
讓這個濫訴不要第一時間就進到學校來讓學校老師校長都知道我被起訴了那種心情啊而且他還會覺得這是一個壓力那我覺得老師受傷就是影響到 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].start |
24775.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].end |
24783.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[896].text |
孩子的一個受教權所以在這裡呢我就要建議因為我們已經聯繫做了三次的相關的校事會議的一個質詢那我看每一次來的時候呢那個張廖次長來的時候呢就聽聽聽然後就跟那個國教署署長講說這個記起來是什麼那既然都有聽然後都有在記那是不是針對很多委員提出的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].start |
24801.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].end |
24815.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[897].text |
看法或者是說覺得應該要改善的改變的是不是教育部也要針對委員提出來的一些看法呢你們也是要提出一個修正在這裡呢我做這樣的一個建議好 請務委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].start |
24826.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].end |
24844.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[898].text |
我很認真的去把母法教師法拿出來不只是第29條就是對於教師解聘、不續聘、停聘或自選程序相關辦法的29條的母法授權我更嚴謹的把教師法第4章整個從第14條一直到30條 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].start |
24849.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].end |
24877.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[899].text |
我们当年在2019年立法院在修教师法的时候担心当时的教评会失失相互然后没有办法对于老师确实有不适应的状况来加以处置所以大家那一届的立法院是花了很多次的会议去修正了现在的教师法第四章的完整条文我讲了14条到30条 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].start |
24879.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].end |
24888.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[900].text |
那現在呢我認為立法修法或者是責成行政部門做行政命令的修正都需要負責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].start |
24889.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].end |
24910.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[901].text |
今天教委所提的這個提案就禁制要求教育部修正該辦法的這個提案說穿了就是一個修什麼你自己想修什麼你自己看著辦修什麼我叫你修你就修就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].start |
24911.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].end |
24925.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[902].text |
偏偏要委员来指出你认为教师法14条有抵触16条有抵触18条有抵触29条抵触了第二项或是第一项 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].start |
24927.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].end |
24951.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[903].text |
這些指出立委要求教育部修正行政命令你至少 OK 我退彎不言因為本來行政命令就是行政院的權限立委縱使不需要越組代刨到請教育部把行政命令該怎麼修該怎麼修立委也許不需要做到這因為這也不是立委的權限 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].start |
24952.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].end |
24975.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[904].text |
但是至少立委要負責任的我請你修因為你違反了教師法的第幾條第幾項第幾款這是負責任的立法院該做的事而不是這麼的漫不經心反正我看不順眼或者是我認為你就是要修就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].start |
24977.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].end |
25001.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[905].text |
那我覺得我也不曉得我們的議事人員很辛苦啊今天怎麼去登載這樣子的一個會議內容所以大家做事情都要負責任我們立法委員在修法立法的時候我們也要負責任我們要提出我們對應的版本啊那現在要求立法行政院修正行政命令的立委提不出任何 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].start |
25003.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].end |
25023.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[906].text |
違逆母法抵觸母法的任何相次都提不出來就一個我叫你修你就修這個立法院太無限擴張權力了這個立法院也太自我的去踐踏了自己該履行的職責 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].start |
25025.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].end |
25052.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[907].text |
我們再一次的懇求提案的羅昭偉連署的幾位委員你好歹指出來這一個之前辦法從第一條到最後我現在看到的第62條哪一條抵觸母法該修你至少把人家mark出來吧你至少把抵觸母法的項目內容 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].start |
25053.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].end |
25066.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[908].text |
清楚說明吧否則我覺得今天在這裡講到半夜12點還在做這種鬼打牆因為提案的委員不負責任所以與其 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].start |
25067.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].end |
25093.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[909].text |
還在這邊直接這樣討論下去沒有聚焦我真的建議主席應當具體的說這整個62個條文裡頭的資遣辦法你認為哪一條哪一項違反了教師法的哪一條哪一項這個才明確你要教育部去修人家也才能夠聚焦否則你這樣空白的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].start |
25094.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].end |
25122.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[910].text |
那教育部也可以空白的交回來因為提案委員沒有講清楚你到底要我修哪裡我們聽了這麼多位委員大家表達的意見都非常的清楚那為什麼提案委員就是迴避了自己該履行的職責到底違反了魔法哪一條這個資檢辦法哪一條哪一款是有問題的你真的拜託你要提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].start |
25125.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].end |
25125.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[911].text |
然後陳佩玉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].start |
25144.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].end |
25173.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[912].text |
好谢谢主席我不确定我们等一下会得到什么样的会议结果但如果按照刚刚蔡春筹委员你的发言逻辑那我是不是就公开建议如果提案人罗廷伟委员只敢用嘴巴说不愿意在提案上增加他认为教育部哪里违反了魔法哪里抵触了魔法的说明文字如果罗廷伟委员不肯加那是不是蔡春筹委员你就把你刚刚说的那么一大段 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].start |
25173.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].end |
25198.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[913].text |
甚至你认为要废除校师会议的说法你们就勇敢的写在提案里头让教育部知道原来这个是罗廷伟委员叶源志委员蔡春丑委员罗志强委员的提案就是希望废除校师会议如果这是你们最终的目的这样也比较可以完成你们的许愿否则真的就会像刚刚我们所提醒的 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].start |
25200.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].end |
25222.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[914].text |
當你現在考卷改都不改你就丟回去叫人家重寫你根本也難以預期他又會寫什麼交回來給你而你到底會不會滿意接下來我要說我猜想在今天會議結束之後本黨今天所有在場發言提示關於這個提案非常荒謬的委員可能又會被惡意的剪輯說我們反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].start |
25224.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].end |
25236.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[915].text |
改革校事會議我們反對支持現場的老師我要說我要先預告這是一個非常惡意的指控我認為在立法院裡面所有的討論都應該要好好的針對事情而討論不是所有的事情你認為他現在不滿你的意你就要全部廢除 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].start |
25243.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].end |
25250.245 |
| transcript.whisperx[916].text |
如果你的提案是要全部廢除那我要提醒所有的委員你們必須要回去修的是教師法當年108年修法的第29條而不是在這個行政辦法上提出一個莫名其妙不願意負責任說明理由的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].start |
25261.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].end |
25278.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[917].text |
就要教育部去做到让你们满意的地步我认为这也不是现在的教育现场所要看见的在今天早上的质询当中我们也看到罗廷伟委员你不只提了老师的意见你邀请了现场的老师但你不要忘记了你自己也说了 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].start |
25278.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].end |
25295.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[918].text |
学生的权益必须要被照顾家长的权益也要被理解亲师生共同相处的学校第一线现场需要更完整的配套但如果你心中想的所谓更完整的配套是全面的废除校事会议如果你有这样的主张我们认为 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].start |
25297.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].end |
25314.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[919].text |
你有言論免責權你有自由的言論權利你可以用力的主張每一個人都可以為自己的主張負責而不是提出一個不願意說明不敢說明不敢說清楚的提案就要叫教育部回去重新更正所以我再次提醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].start |
25315.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].end |
25330.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[920].text |
所有的提案委員如果你們真的覺得自己講得非常有道理而且你也堅持這個事情要往下這樣做就請你勇敢的寫在提案裡面未來納入公報請你為你自己的言論負責大家都看得非常的清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].start |
25335.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].end |
25354.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[921].text |
好 陳培立委員我在這裡要回問一下陳培立委員我剛剛連一句廢除那個校式會議的話都沒有講所以不要扣帽子那我覺得校式會議我也沒有贊成要廢但是我們總是這種政策不能往回走那既然都已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].start |
25355.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].end |
25381.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[922].text |
已經建立了 設立了之後呢當然有很多的一個瑕疵這也不是我一個人講的我們開了好幾次的校事會議已經每一個委員幾乎都有針對校事會議裡面的一些一些缺點提出一個建議那我是覺得說那就針對有一些對於老師不公平的地方或者是說對老師比較有傷害性的一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].start |
25384.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].end |
25388.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[923].text |
一些事例我們來做一個修正至於我覺得我們這個校事會議既然是定了以後讓它越走越好然後也不要讓老師受傷害該保障的要保障對於學生的權益對於老師的權益還有家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].start |
25405.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].end |
25423.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[924].text |
他希望他對於學生在學校裡面應該受的哪些照顧我們都覺得我們都可以考慮但是呢我們並沒有說我們要廢除那個廢除消失會議請那個陪理委員那個跟你解釋一下請郭醫生委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].start |
25433.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].end |
25449.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[925].text |
好 在這裡再講清楚一次其實我們百分之百支持減輕校師會議對於現場的老師的一個內耗但是根據立法院職權行使法第62條審查的一個精神我想大家應該都非常清楚這是立法委員的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].start |
25451.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].end |
25477.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[926].text |
立法院如果認為行政命令有一些問題那要求這個教育部要更正那必須要明確的指出到底是哪一個條文到底是哪一個部分違反了法律或者是違反了所謂的這個魔法的授權那像這樣子的一個提案沒有把任何的調次寫在上面其實是除了粗糙以外其實也是蠻不負責任而且感覺就像是個空炮彈 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].start |
25478.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].end |
25502.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[927].text |
那上面是完全沒有列出條文的對照表那另外就是我們看到就是提案的委員如果您是不滿到底是不滿哪一個部分然後要這個教育部回去修正那這個做法有點像是剛剛其實培育委員也講得很清楚就是有點像是改考卷的老師直接在考卷上直接打一個大叉叉而且不跟他講說到底錯在哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].start |
25503.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].end |
25530.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[928].text |
回去要改在哪裡你要訂正你要訂正十次還是要訂正幾次到底要訂正在哪裡還是哪一個步驟算錯了那我想這樣子的一個比較模糊的提案其實真的我不曉得到底今天我們坐在這個地方每一個委員其實都表達得非常的清楚那我想這個部分也是再次的提醒就是提案的委員我們如果針對所謂的這樣子的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].start |
25531.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].end |
25539.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[929].text |
要修正到底要修正到哪一個步驟到底是要哪一個條文要來修正這個一定要寫得清楚明白以上還有委員有意見嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].start |
25561.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].end |
25584.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[930].text |
我們來處理這個提案嗯先回應一下委員跟委員特別報告剛剛非常感謝吳思耀委員剛剛有提到行政命令是行政機關的主要權責立法委員不應該越取代跑所以我覺得還是尊重一下我們現場主管機關有沒有在發言 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].start |
25593.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].end |
25614.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[931].text |
主管機關沒意見喔那我們都是辦理了公聽會然後專報然後詢答大家也都交流了很多的意見現場不管是公聽會老師第一線全教總他們相關的意見我相信你們應該也都知道他們的一個相關條文需要哪裡更正 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].start |
25614.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].end |
25629.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[932].text |
那再來再透過每一次的詢答很多的委員都有給予意見希望你們都可以納入所以在今天很明確的提出了我們的第一個提案就是希望能夠請教一部修正後 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].start |
25630.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].end |
25649.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[933].text |
再送立法院被查依立法委員職員行事法第26條62條來規定當然有委員特別關心是不是有違反母法所以要求要違反母法的理由才可以來修法我們已經多次再次的跟大家報告95年有相關的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].start |
25651.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].end |
25675.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[934].text |
教育文化委員會所做出的決議當時是用罔顧民意以及實際的狀況顧予以退回所以這是有潛力的並不是一定要違反母法而是跟實際的操作狀況有實際的缺失希望能夠予以退回修正再重新立法院被查那另外呢也調出了相關的資料94年 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].start |
25677.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].end |
25702.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[935].text |
我们在11月24号举行第11次全体委员会议的时候当时是由洪秀柱担任主席那这个部分他们也是在处理教师申诉评议委员会组织及评议准则这样的一个办法那他们那个时候下的结论也是为改善目前教师申诉实际运作的缺失 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].start |
25703.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].end |
25730.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[936].text |
所以請這個教育部重新斟酌研擬後再送本院備查也都沒有提到一定要逾越母法那我想這個部分呢也請各位委員能夠來參考一下我所提出的前例他是可以依照前例這樣子來處理的那最後我想所有的委員對我的提案都很有意見我也非常感謝虛心指教那是不是也請委員直接提出你的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].start |
25731.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].end |
25760.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[937].text |
那不要告訴別的委員說啊你都給人家考卷打XX直接不看那我想我們都已經作答了您認為我們不及格那是不是也請民進黨的委員也請你作答也請你在你的考卷寫上你的答案那來告訴大家你的提案是什麼我們再來討論不要只是批評那都沒有辦法把這個事情持續的推進以上簡單的回應那接下來我們就要來處理提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].start |
25762.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].end |
25790.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[938].text |
第一案請提案委員喔那我們剛剛都已經說明了機關代表也多次詢問沒有表達意見喔那所以我們現在要來處理提案一那本案是否照案通過或者要修正請委員有沒有異議沒有異議的話我們要照案通過有異議有異議好有委員提出保留請問一下有沒有委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].start |
25808.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].end |
25809.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[939].text |
我們休息五分鐘 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].start |
25945.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].end |
25973.903 |
| transcript.whisperx[940].text |
好我們現在正式開會好現在處理第一案那剛剛有委員提案針對第一案保留送院會處理請問有無異議好有異議表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].start |
25978.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].end |
25999.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[941].text |
來請清點人數好出席委員8位針對提案第一案那因為沒有其他委員提案我們就只有這第一案那請問一下有委員提案保留支持保留送月會處理的請舉手 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].start |
26006.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].end |
26023.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[942].text |
主席你真的是愛怎麼自己家就怎麼家欸還有我想要主張為什麼現場有不知道哪一個委員辦公室的助理一直在拍個別委員的發言我們明明已經有IVOD了我可不可以主張確認一下好因為剛剛有有委員一直在拍我們的發言我不知道怎麼回事喔來請請問等一下主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].start |
26032.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].end |
26058.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[943].text |
主席我可以發言嗎主席你可不可以讓我們把話講完你現在就打算當一個蠻橫獨裁的主席嗎就你自己說了算嗎所有委員的發言都不用參考跟討論如果今天國民黨委員這麼在意請問有人到現場嗎主席我們可不可以把你剛剛你突然保留送院會是怎麼回事所以是主席你自己說了算麻煩請剛剛提案的委員再次說明你的提案沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].start |
26063.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].end |
26067.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[944].text |
不好意思我是說處理本提案的時候你的提議是 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].start |
26071.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].end |
26098.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[945].text |
我們的提議是請提案委員載明有關現在在審議的高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或咨選辦法請提案委員指出哪些款項條文違逆了母法教師法29條我們具體要求提案委員要載明 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].start |
26098.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].end |
26111.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[946].text |
重新提案否则这是一个不明不白这是一个完全不清楚完全不聚焦这是一个空白的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].start |
26113.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].end |
26141.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[947].text |
所以對於這樣完全空白的提案我們的具體要求是請提案委員重行提案針對違逆母法之處為哪些宰民之後再來討論這樣才負責任我們不能讓這種空白授權我不知道怎麼形容了就是空白的提案粗枝濫造的提案這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].start |
26143.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].end |
26163.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[948].text |
提案的委員自己不覺得自己寫這個提案很心虛嗎所以我具體請主席針對這個辦法裡頭哪些條文跟母法抵觸回到《自權行使法》62條你應當載明這才是一個合宜的提案否則我們無從討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].start |
26165.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].end |
26173.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[949].text |
你就算送到院會也是無從討論因為你是一個完全空白不明不白的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].start |
26177.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].end |
26196.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[950].text |
好 報告委員還是要請委員直接就針對我的提案直接來議事程序處理那委員不應該是提出自己的文字然後要求其他的委員要來照你的模式來處理我們是針對議事程序下去處理所以基本上呢我們的提案已經寫出來了如果您不滿意的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].start |
26199.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].end |
26221.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[951].text |
您可以直接提出您自己的版本您對於教育部的這個辦法有哪裡不滿意的您也請改名啊您把要求別人的話來要求自己好嗎您把要求教育部的話來要求自己就才是負責任的提案自己的提案不明不白 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].start |
26223.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].end |
26239.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[952].text |
您要要求教育部修正您就提出哪些部分教育部違反母法你寫出來有這麼困難嗎如果你自己寫不出來就是因為你沒有辦法說清楚因為它並沒有違逆母法之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].start |
26240.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].end |
26243.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[953].text |
您沒有辦法自圓其說您沒有辦法自圓其說現在是2026年啊現在是2026年啊羅金偉教委您活在哪一個時空啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].start |
26258.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].end |
26275.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[954].text |
決議的理由確實需要修正罔顧民意之實際狀況予以退回這個是當時94年95年他們並沒有寫到要逾越母法為前提才可以退回要求教務部重新修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].start |
26275.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].end |
26296.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[955].text |
主席我想要說你現在犯了兩個非常大的法理上的錯誤但我想我們都是新科的立委我們可以一起學習那我就提出我們的建議第一個你剛剛已經說了在你念的兩個版本裡面二十年前的部分其實他們都很明白而且很勇敢的說出自己的看法叫做 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].start |
26296.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].end |
26319.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[956].text |
背离民意等等也好还有就是罔顾教师现场权益可是委员主席你看一下你自己的提案你连民意两个字或者是教训权益什么你都不敢写你就写了一堆完全不知道在说什么东西要不要我再念一次给你听你认为有待修正之处是谁认为有待修正呢要修正哪些东西呢然后通知教育部更正 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].start |
26319.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].end |
26344.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[957].text |
所以无私要委员的提案的建议内容根据您的提案我们要说的就是请你认为有问题的地方就写出来放在提案里面我们可以再来根据你所更正过提案来进行处理这是第一个第二个我认为你完全在糟蹋民主现场有这么多委员对于你刚刚说要处理这件事情表达有意义有看法有不同的意见 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].start |
26345.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].end |
26350.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[958].text |
你就決定打算不處理嗎就決定硬要表決嗎就你一個人說了算嗎請問在委員會裡面我們連最基本的民主程序都沒有辦法落實嗎我不知道原來召委的權力有這麼大這麼無限擴張這麼獨裁這麼集權有這樣的一個國民黨的羅廷偉委員擔任教育文化委員會的召委 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].start |
26364.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].end |
26394.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[959].text |
是谁把教练化委员会气氛现在变成这样就是你罗昭伟所以我再一次强调如果你跟蔡春筹委员你们两个现在都还在现场你们认为你们说的非常有道理不论是背离民意也好或是你们认为没有理解到现场老师的痛苦那你们就勇敢的写在提案里头啊为你们自己的言论负责为你们自己的提案负责未来让历史上大家回过头来看当你有多么两个认真的委员他们勇于为自己的言论负责 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].start |
26394.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].end |
26418.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[960].text |
留下文字在提案里头而不是现在一个不清不楚的提案不知道让教育部改什么东西然后你现在甚至粗暴蛮横的说直接送院会处理我觉得非常非常的荒谬非常非常的独裁在教文化委员会在台湾的民主法治社会不应该在立法院发生这样的事情好刚刚那个陈培佑委员说保留嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].start |
26419.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].end |
26447.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[961].text |
那所以我們就接著請就直接處理我們沒關係沒關係那我們現在就來處理委員提案第一案剛剛有我們要來請機關說明那機關也沒有表示任何的意見那現在呢我們要來處理委員提案第一案那照案通過修正通過或者是保留那我們要來處理那剛好陳佩玉委員提案保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].start |
26449.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].end |
26468.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[962].text |
請問保留有無意義沒關係你提案就好了保留在委員會是保留在委員會喔我要再一次強調我剛剛提案保留在委員會是因為它根本就是一個違法荒謬至極的提案所以我不是要 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].start |
26470.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].end |
26490.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[963].text |
我不是為了反對消失會議的改革我們自始自終都支持但是這個提案非常的荒謬完全不說出來到底道理在哪裡在這個前提之下我們要求保留放在委員會好現場我們主席委員八人不喊主席那由委員提議保留在委員會那支持保留在委員會的請舉手投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].start |
26497.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].end |
26523.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[964].text |
主席啊你們提案委員國民黨沒有半個委員在這裡你覺得為什麼你都不需要請國民黨的委員來場表達對您的支持嗎連國民黨委員都沒有來都沒有要來挺你的提案然後你就硬要處理那請問一下不贊成保留反對的請舉手在場沒有任何一個國民黨委員要來挺羅廷偉的提案耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].start |
26525.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].end |
26549.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[965].text |
我要主張我覺得根本是我們不應該去表決這個事情我們現場舉手投票贊成保留在委員會裡面的一位不贊成反對的投票也一位平手等一下主席等一下主席請稍等主席不好意思因為剛剛有請你們表決那是不是你可以再提議一次重新表決 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].start |
26555.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].end |
26577.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[966].text |
主席你尊重我一個委員發言的權利你為什麼就是為了表決而表決呢你為什麼不能夠就你自己的提案講清楚哪些這個辦法哪些跟魔法抵觸你要把它載明它才是一個合宜的提案啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].start |
26578.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].end |
26594.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[967].text |
你為什麼不願意完備您的提案呢要針對一個毫不完備的提案就硬要表決更何況你們國民黨的委員沒有半個人在場啊沒有半個人在場關心校事會議啊國民黨的委員到哪裡去了然後召委一個人就要這樣蠻幹 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].start |
26603.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].end |
26607.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[968].text |
教育部7月15号就会提出校事会议的分析报告所以我们认为要等7月15号教育部的分析报告提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].start |
26621.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].end |
26627.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[969].text |
我們沒有認為有什麼我們沒有認為哪個條文體違逆母法要提案的人是你啊您是提案人啊您規避您的責任要別人來替你要別人替你擦屁股你要別人替你擦屁股 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].start |
26643.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].end |
26664.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[970].text |
那我也再一次的跟所有的國人以及其他委員特別報告94年95年已經有多次審議相關的行政命令都是有下結論因為現場的實際狀況違背民意那相關的辦法應該教育部重新修正再送回立法院審查那以上是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].start |
26665.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].end |
26694.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[971].text |
這個提案的主旨那所以還是拜託如果委員您覺得不滿意您可以提出您自己的版本但您不可以提案要求別的委員怎麼做那剛剛有再一次請我們的主管機關請提出修正文字也多次的詢問主管機關沒有意願要提出修正文字所以我們是不是就直接推進我們的議事程序繼續處理我們委員的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].start |
26695.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].end |
26718.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[972].text |
那剛剛委員有對於投票有意見那所以是不是要重新投票主席這個針對就是把這個提案保留在委員會我要求重新表決謝謝收到指令只要有委員提出議事程序的指令我們能接受的我們一定全力協助請點人數 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].start |
26724.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].end |
26747.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[973].text |
在場8位現場提案遺憾第一案我們有委員提案喔所以我們要來處理本案是否照案通過修正通過或者是保留那有委員提案保留在委員會那不用送出院會那我們針對這個提案現階段要來投票請舉手投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].start |
26749.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].end |
26773.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[974].text |
贊成本題案保留在委員會不用送出院會贊成者請舉手好七位反對者請舉手好一位謝謝我們教育部贊成者喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].start |
26774.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].end |
26803.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[975].text |
為多數本案通過保留在委員會接著教育部含為修正高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或支遣辦法部分條文案連同令定期繼續審查接著我們要處理第二案 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].start |
26812.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].end |
26826.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[976].text |
請我們接著繼續審理第二案繼續審查教育部含維修正功力高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法第五條 第六條之一條文案現在由委員提議一案請議事人員宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].start |
26829.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].end |
26853.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[977].text |
教育部於2015年1月12日完成公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法第五條第六條之一條文修正案經第五會期教育及文化委員會第十七次全體委員會議能認為有待修正之處請教育部修正後再送立法院被查依立法院職權行使法第六十二條規定提報院會 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].start |
26855.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].end |
26871.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[978].text |
立法院院會議決後通知教育部更正該辦法提案人 羅廷偉連署人葉言之 蔡春籌 羅志強先讀完畢好 我們接下來我們是不是就請問一下那我是提案委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].start |
26871.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].end |
26897.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[979].text |
那我的意見大概就差不多跟上一案都一樣那我們依據94年95年所提議的他並沒有違背母法的前提但是與現場教學狀況實際違反了有一些缺失也罔顧民意希望我們教育部修正後再送立法院被查以上簡單的提案說明那也請機關代表表示意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].start |
26906.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].end |
26926.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[980].text |
謝謝召委那在考核辦法配合1月12號修正解聘辦法的同時那麼做了第五條第六條之一比較完整的配套那如果在立法院的職權行使法那委員這邊有就 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].start |
26928.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].end |
26947.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[981].text |
比較有違反了文法的部分給我們指導那麼在未來修正的就比較能聚焦那麼在送備查的時候也比較能夠通過那是不是再請委員這邊再給我們一個比較明確的指導方向之後那我們更具體的來做更正補充完畢不好意思所以有提案的修正文字嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].start |
26957.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].end |
26965.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[982].text |
接著我們要來處理本提案照案通過修正通過或者是保留主席可以發言嗎?謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].start |
26967.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].end |
26992.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[983].text |
可以发言了好谢谢主席现在处理这个提案我要再念一次给大家听提案教育部于一一五年一月十二日完成公立高级中等以下学校教师成绩考核办法第五条第六条之一条文修正案经第五会期教育局文化委员会第十七次全体委员会议仍认为有待修正之处请教育部修正后 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].start |
26993.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].end |
27014.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[984].text |
再送立法院被查依立法院職權行使法第62條規定提報立法院院會會議一決後通知教育部更正辦法一樣邏輯錯誤一樣沒有指出委員您認為哪裡應該要修正而且我再次說你剛剛不斷引用20年前在教文化委員會曾經發生的事情但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].start |
27014.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].end |
27035.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[985].text |
先不管當時的情況跟現在的情況也不一樣但是至少當時提案的委員勇敢的說出他們認為要嘛就是背離民意要嘛就是沒有理解現場老師的困境可是我現在手上羅廷維委員做主題案的這一份提案甚至連自己的主張自己認為哪裡應該要更正要給教育部什麼指導完全說不出來我也非常好奇到底是為什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].start |
27041.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].end |
27069.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[986].text |
而联署人叶元之委员蔡春筹委员罗志强委员一样在今天很可惜都没有听到更进一步的说法同时我也要再次提醒主席也提醒今天所有在场的人如果消失会议是现在在党委员他们认为他们自己是最关心的一群人他们认为自己在消失会议上是所有跟教师站在一起的人那就我就问今天下午国民党的教育号委员会的委员 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].start |
27070.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].end |
27088.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[987].text |
葉元芝委員、葛如君委員、謝龍介委員、柯之恩委員、羅志強委員我們沒有看到你們的發聲我們沒有看到你們出現我們沒有看到你們持續在修法的版本內容上關注這個議題我們更不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].start |
27089.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].end |
27106.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[988].text |
葉元芝委員也好 羅志強委員也好為什麼要簽羅廷偉委員這個提案完全沒有說明的提案所以我要再次強調這是一個應該要撤回或者是主席您自己說清楚到底要教一部更正什麼內容的提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].start |
27123.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].end |
27126.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[989].text |
好,還有一個會員有肺炎的故事有一個會員 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].start |
27128.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].end |
27155.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[990].text |
其实刚刚主席在一直不断的这个补充说明的过程主席自己也已经讲到重点了您今天提的两个提案并没有违反立法院职权新司法62条所在有违逆母法教师法29条之处其实刚刚赵伟你已经多次说并没有违反母法 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].start |
27156.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].end |
27183.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[991].text |
你已經非常清楚自己提案都知道並沒有違反母法你剛講了很多次但是很遺憾你用了一個民國95年20多年前立法院的所謂的什麼慣例我們真的不清楚那個時候的時空當下發生了什麼事但是立法院就應當依法守法我們依據的就是《執行人心思法》62條 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].start |
27185.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].end |
27202.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[992].text |
所以当年20多年前没有依法那为什么20多年后的2026年我们要依循20几年前错误的做法然后要持续的无法炮制呢我觉得这是我一个很大的质疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].start |
27204.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].end |
27223.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[993].text |
所以剛剛主席自己在補充說明你已經提到不管剛剛的提案第一案或是現在的第二案確實都沒有違反母法之處換言之你也很清楚並沒有要求教育部依法要予以廢止 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].start |
27224.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].end |
27244.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[994].text |
或是修正之處的可能性、可行性您比誰都還清楚不過了因為你剛已經多次說明了所以早知如此你為什麼硬要還是要針對不明不白違反法規的提案又要做處理呢? |
| transcript.whisperx[995].start |
27245.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].end |
27259.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[995].text |
所以这个案子跟上面的一个案子一样民进党团的主张依旧是认为如果委员指证的出来能够指明哪些条文违反了 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].start |
27260.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].end |
27285.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[996].text |
母法授权那我们当然应当来讨论如果您没有办法载明而且你刚刚也说了没有违反母法之处那就代表这个提案完全不合理不正当这个提案也不应当拿来这里硬要来处理所以我补充说明我只是用您刚刚所说的话术来回答您自己而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].start |
27289.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].end |
27318.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[997].text |
好謝謝委員我想再補充說明一下那剛剛我很清楚的喔我是引用94年95年當時所做的決議他們直接提到為改善目前教師申訴實際的運作的缺失緩漸請教育部重新斟酌研擬後再送本院備查當時的時空背景並沒有提及有違反母法我是在講解當時的時空背景 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].start |
27320.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].end |
27333.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[998].text |
第二個95年這一案是給予這個國民小學國民中學班級編制及教職員員額編制的準則他所提到的理由是罔顧名義及實際狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].start |
27335.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].end |
27358.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[999].text |
故予退回那兩岸呢都是沒有提及有無違背母法所以是有潛力的但如果委員真要說我們在審理高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘之前的辦法部分條文修正是否有違反母法我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].start |
27359.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].end |
27366.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[1000].text |
我們都不可以直接下定論有跟無我們畢竟不是大法官但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].start |
27367.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].end |
27396.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[1001].text |
經過全國教師公會總聯合會他們不斷的在倡議其授權的母法教師法相關的條文第一條立法目的就揭示的立法精神是以法律保障教師的工作權以及專業地位使教師能夠在程序正義以及專業自主的環境中從事教育工作以達到成為國家培育人才的重要使命所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].start |
27396.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].end |
27399.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[1002].text |
我們現階段為什麼要來處理相關的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].start |
27401.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].end |
27429.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[1003].text |
高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘支遣辦法就是因為他們認為這些相關的辦法已經影響到了教師續聘的權益應該要受法律的保障的權益所以他們都清楚明確的指出這些法令這些辦法已經侵害到他們的工作權我想這些不管是教師會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].start |
27430.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].end |
27456.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[1004].text |
不管是总联合会不管是台教产不管是我们的教育产业相关的团体都不断的在倡议我想教育部都比我们更清楚这些法令哪些应该要修正再更新以后再请立法院备查我想这个部分也跟大家一并说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].start |
27461.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].end |
27488.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[1005].text |
癥結點在其他委員自己提案還是要請委員自行提案接著我們因為剛剛議事人員有提醒配合第一案已經暫時保留在委員會所以我們今天第二個提案我們在處理的時候呢也只能夠繼續定期繼續審查以上跟所有的委員特別報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].start |
27490.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].end |
27511.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[1006].text |
所以我們宣讀教育部涵為修正公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法第五條第六條條文案定期再繼續審查接著我們法案討論與經協商我們繼續進行法案諸條審查請醫事人員宣讀新增的條文提案 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].start |
27518.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].end |
27519.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[1007].text |
並列入公報紀錄 請宣讀宣讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].start |
27551.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].end |
27569.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[1008].text |
請問一下要宣讀多久請問主席是要宣讀多久是你要午餐法嗎因為有三四十個案子請問要宣讀多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].start |
27581.149 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].end |
27581.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[1009].text |
好 我們現在繼續審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].start |
27610.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].end |
27638.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[1010].text |
學校共餐法草案學校午餐及飲食教育條例相關草案繼續審查本案前經114年11月27日召開第四會期教育及文化委員會第八次全體委員會審查的結果法案名稱趙委員柯之恩等21人委員陳培宇等26人提案通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].start |
27639.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].end |
27648.329 |
| transcript.whisperx[1011].text |
第二 各張張明均不予採納第三 第一條暫時保留第二條修正通過現在進行逐條審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].start |
27656.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].end |
27660.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[1012].text |
跟委員報告他已經在宣讀了我們可以進行主條審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].start |
27688.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].end |
27692.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[1013].text |
他們就不關心教育,他們怎麼關心教育?他們只會鬥爭 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].start |
27730.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].end |
27736.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[1014].text |
好 我們現在處理第一條那因為第一條上次是暫時保留請問有委員有意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].start |
27745.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].end |
27773.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[1015].text |
欸上一次保留是不是就持續保留啊我們應該是順著繼續下面討論條文吧欸是這樣沒錯我剛剛有跟議事人員確認是不是就直接照第三條來處理但議事人員還是提醒希望從第一條來處理那委員可以提案保留沒關係不是議事人員說明一下為什麼上一次保留為什麼你要我們再重新討論一次 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].start |
27777.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].end |
27802.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[1016].text |
呃我報告一下上一次的保留是保留在委員會所以所以這一次在審的時候我們還是照順序一條文順序從第一條再開始那如果說要再保留那我們就是再往往後再看因為我的理解是接下去討論不是嗎呃因為他的意思就是說因為是保留在委員會啦所以重啟委員會的審查的時候就又再重新開啟第一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].start |
27805.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].end |
27834.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[1017].text |
可是一程序不就應該從第三條開始嗎因為如果你第一條上次就保留現在再回來重新討論一次有必要嗎好啊沒關係那委員建議我們從第三條開始因為第一條應該還是就是上次討論了很久嘛就沒有共識嘛所以我們應該就往下面的條文吧好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].start |
27835.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].end |
27844.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[1018].text |
那我們就第二條因為已經通過了我們從第三條開始第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].start |
27851.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].end |
27878.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[1019].text |
第三條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三條等36個提案以及委員柯志恩等人所提修正動議我們來進行討論那柯志恩委員的版本相關的條文修正都發給大家請大家參閱我們簡單來講就是已經整合相關委員的版本那也請就不會要照原本的36個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].start |
27881.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].end |
27891.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[1020].text |
來處理了現在各個委員有共識都已經將最大的共識的修正動議提供給所有的委員來參考我們看到第三條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].start |
27904.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].end |
27905.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[1021].text |
好 對不起 等我一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].start |
27918.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].end |
27947.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[1022].text |
不好意思我們就直接看到柯志恩委員的修正動議還有民眾黨的版本那還有教育部的條文建議那第三條請委員舉手發言 謝謝主席我是建議啦因為第三條其實相對簡單啦那那個我就覺得就是依照教育部的建議文字這樣來處理喔以上好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].start |
27949.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].end |
27976.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[1023].text |
那還有沒有委員要發言國務卿委員第三條這邊就部分有要求這個學校依法辦理午餐跟食慾那這個跟我的第三條的精神相同啦那這個部分其實我剛剛呼籲一下那個領域委員我們就尊重就是照這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].start |
27987.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].end |
28000.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[1024].text |
這條在我自己的版本我是有加上各級主管機關因為我覺得說如果學校午餐及飲食教育的部分在政策面積經費部分也是有賴中央 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].start |
28000.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].end |
28020.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[1025].text |
及地方主管機關來協助學校處理所以我才會在我的這個學校的前面加上各級主管機關那因為教育部建議的條文是只有寫學校那我是建議這樣子加但是如果教育部覺得說他們的學校寫上學校這樣的量是足夠的話我沒有意見 以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].start |
28025.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].end |
28052.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[1026].text |
陈培余委员谢谢好谢谢主席第三条我其实跟绣宝委员有一样的担心因为我知道教育局处会议上或者是因为现在22个县市的营养午餐都是免费如果我们的条文现在还是写原本的学校我其实会有一些担心所以我也想要恳请主席待会是不是在每一个委员都发言后让国教署来说明目前教育部的版本里面虽然原本是写学校 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].start |
28053.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].end |
28069.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[1027].text |
但是这个版本是在22个县市都宣布免费之前所以拜托教育部公开说明一下现在如果这样写的版本会不会对学校造成困扰未来我们在依法行政的时候会不会是学校要去承担这么多的业务好 以上谢谢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].start |
28075.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].end |
28101.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[1028].text |
我進入我的條文之前我是想先建議一下主席因為今天的版本有40個版本那非常多的委員並不在現場所以我們是不是能夠在程序上就以在場的委員的版本來討論我覺得應該是這樣因為譬如說您一直在講克斯恩委員的修正動議那克斯文不在啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].start |
28103.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].end |
28129.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[1029].text |
你們其他委員不在場的話我們很難去兼顧他的意見如果重視條文的委員應當會在場所以我是希望就我們應當就進行有在場討論的委員的內容那回到條文第三條我個人的提案第一個我也主張在主體上應當是學校及各級主管機關這是第一個主體 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].start |
28130.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].end |
28152.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[1030].text |
然後學校及主管機關因依本條例規定辦理學校午餐我是建議把午餐改為公餐因為我認為這個學校也許這個法所明定的不是只有午餐的部分也許未來擴及其他的公餐吳委員不好意思是第三條嗎第三條是的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].start |
28153.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].end |
28172.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[1031].text |
所以辦理學校供餐及推動飲食教育工作這是我的建議所以第一個主體學校及各級主管機關第二個學校午餐我具體建議應當改成學校供餐供應餐食學校供餐的部分這是我的兩個主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].start |
28176.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].end |
28198.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[1032].text |
好不好意思我補充報告一下我也覺得蠻冤枉的這修正動議是我寫的啊名字我簽最大結果他們議事人員給我列柯志恩委員為主題案人這其實是我的版本但沒關係還是跟委員特別報告不管是主題案人是誰喔哪怕是柯志恩委員我也很清楚的在這邊我跟蔡淳仇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].start |
28198.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].end |
28225.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[1033].text |
也都是提案委員之一聯署委員之一所以我們在現場這個版本也是等同於就是我們在處理我們的提案所以我們已經整合了幾乎三十幾位的委員的版本就是以這一份修正動議為主以上做簡單的報告那也拜託那個議事人員下次問我一下名字我比較大怎麼會寫他他簽我的主委我已經很懊惱了但沒關係這規定就讓給他了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].start |
28228.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].end |
28247.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[1034].text |
那那個吳培偉不好意思這個第三條有些版本裡面有提到文字是學校公餐及飲食教育計畫但教育部版的建議文字是沒有那我覺得這可以討論啦因為之前我們在問的時候有一些學校的課程計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].start |
28248.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].end |
28274.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[1035].text |
就是對現場的老師來說就是會造成更多的文書作業跟行政負擔就是又要叫他寫計畫又要寫計畫這樣所以是不是一定有這個必要性然後以及說這個對我們在實質上面這個公餐跟飲食教育是不是真的是有所幫助是不是一定要寫這個計畫的文字這個我覺得是可以討論我的建議是說看起來沒有說非要不可的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].start |
28274.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].end |
28291.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[1036].text |
是建議還是依照這個教育部的建議文字但可以讓大家一起來討論主席我想補充發言我想要呼籲一下剛剛吳思耀委員的說法我要再次強調如果真的這麼在意的委員他們應該今天要在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].start |
28293.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].end |
28319.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[1037].text |
但很可惜现在国民党只有罗廷伟委员在现场叶元之委员 葛如君 谢龙介 柯之恩 罗志强都不在所以我认为如果委员主席你坚持要你们所谓整合好的版本进行讨论我觉得对于今天所有全程出席的委员非常非常非常的不公平那当然大家的版本都在现场而且我们人也在现场我们不是只有版本在现场 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].start |
28320.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].end |
28342.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[1038].text |
就算主席覺得可能這樣討論很浪費時間很花時間但我想主席你既然都要排案了是不是就尊重今天有出席的委員請讓我們回到各自的版本來討論那當然我們最後尊重教育部跟大家今天所有出席的委員我們可以寫定一個版本而不是讓您單獨的主張就以您或者是柯之恩的版本為主以上我覺得我們還是要強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].start |
28343.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].end |
28366.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[1039].text |
每一個出席的委員才是實質的關心當然有版本很好可是如果對於文字也好對於實行的細節對於未來行政的措施有任何的關注任何擔心我認為都應該要逐條的時候出席說明所以我拜託公開呼籲主張請不要以您所謂手上這個版本為今天討論的主要內容蔡政府委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].start |
28375.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].end |
28378.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[1040].text |
好 針對那個第三條 稍微再說明一下剛剛應該是施堯委員有提到用公餐那這個我個人也贊成那在這個地方 在修正東西這個地方有提到一個食農教育那我覺得這個食農教育對學生來講也是非常重要所以在這裡有補充一些有關於學生的一些需要 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].start |
28403.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].end |
28414.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[1041].text |
接受的教育還有他的一個健康的一個依據呢我個人是覺得應該把他納進來更清楚的這些依據以上好還有委員有提案嗎我們請教育部說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].start |
28428.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].end |
28449.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[1042].text |
就剛剛所有委員所提有四個問題很快跟大家報告第一個問題是各級主管機關部長剛才有特別說這個因為在2025我們在提這個建議版本的時候只有實現是免費到今天在審查的時候就如 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].start |
28449.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].end |
28464.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[1043].text |
其他委員也觀察到了事實是22縣市全面時那早上所有委員都有注意到未來的事情可能跟地方政府還有很多需要介入或是關心的所以這個我們建議可以放主管機關在前面 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].start |
28466.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].end |
28489.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[1044].text |
第二點是有關公餐午餐這一些字眼那以現在法條是寫學校午餐及飲食調理那我們建議以學校其實都已經很辛苦現行大體上在整體公餐或整部相關的作業中 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].start |
28490.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].end |
28508.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[1045].text |
基本上也比較是回到條例的本文還有它的主旨以及它的標題所以我們建議是不是讓學校的老師不用工作的夥伴不用擔心我們還是回到就是本條例的主旨還是午餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].start |
28509.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].end |
28511.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[1046].text |
那麼第三點佩玉委員有提到說裡面有要寫計畫等等的確這可能會比較不需要因為學校在公餐這一些最重要以相關的招標或相關的處理上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].start |
28525.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].end |
28553.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[1047].text |
已經有一個很辛苦的過程了那可能不用再特別額外再寫計畫此外如果涉及到飲食教育不管是課程或相關的本來就有課程計畫所以我們建議不要再特別請學校還要再特別寫計畫所以以上三點不管各級主管教育機關或學校午餐或不要再寫計畫這個大概做這樣的一個三點至於第四點是委員這邊有提案說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].start |
28554.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].end |
28580.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[1048].text |
那个病德结合这个后段是不是坑情委员在第一段主旨的时候就是第一条主旨时会提过一次等一下在第五条的时候也会再提到类似饮食教育这个是不是这一类就不要重复让学校担心说好像一直不管是第一条第三条等一下第五条好像一直要学校要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].start |
28582.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].end |
28608.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[1049].text |
提醒他沒有好多事情要做其實這一條實在處理的是做午餐的這件事的主體包含主管機關和學校其他講事情的部分是不是就不要一直讓學校已經在辦這個工作幫忙學生的整體的午餐的協助了不用在這邊再重複在主體之外再提事情以上補充 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].start |
28611.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].end |
28631.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[1050].text |
好 還有沒有委員有意見好 那有委員對於這一個條文有意見喔那大家都有自己的想法那我們就是保留送院會協商處理好 第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].start |
28633.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].end |
28660.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[1051].text |
第四條 台灣民眾黨黨團提案第四條等第十七個提案以及委員羅廷偉等人所提修正動議不好意思因為我剛剛有抗議啦那真的是我寫的那所以這個部分呢提案人應該是以我為主那也希望說這個部分跟大家特別報告那我們來看到第四條第四條本條條例那麻煩大家可以給予意見 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].start |
28662.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].end |
28690.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[1052].text |
教育部的條文版本是本條例所稱學校指高級中等以下學校這教育部建議的文字那陳培委員請說好主席我想要先問一下剛前一條因為你很快速的就說保留再處理可是教文過去在幾次在審主條的時候其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].start |
28692.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].end |
28708.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[1053].text |
可能我們在一些文字上都可以先進行討論如果真的在文字討論上都沒有共識才會送出去但如果主席今天的策略是採取每一條只要大家發言完連文字都不看也不談我們就送保留是這樣嗎等一下就會是這樣嗎我先問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].start |
28708.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].end |
28730.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[1054].text |
先回應陳佩玉委員跟您報告一下沒有我們一定要尊重委員可是剛剛在問大家有沒有意見的時候那也沒有委員舉手要處理那所以因為大家意見不太一致所以我們就宴會處理送協商所以我剛剛有第二次詢問大家有沒有意見那時候你們沒有舉手不好意思所以我剛剛就這樣處理了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].start |
28731.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].end |
28759.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[1055].text |
好那接下來我們在處理第四條的時候呢也請大家盡情的發言然後對於這個文字上有什麼建議都可以說那我先就我的這個國民黨跟民眾黨我們整合的彙整版本跟大家報告從我們的這一個修正動議我們本條例所稱學校公餐指學校辦理提供之學校午餐晚餐寒假暑假期間的公餐替代公餐以及 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].start |
28760.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].end |
28779.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[1056].text |
其他中央主管機關公告之參時這是我們整合所有的委員的版本那也請大家能夠參考那基本上呢也不離教育部建議條文然後那我們是以他們作為底稿來做修正請大家參閱請陳柏宇委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].start |
28789.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].end |
28813.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[1057].text |
好 我还是先说一下我的版本跟一样希望主席留时间让国教署回答目前我们现在教育部的版本写的比较简单是指高级中等以下学校那事实上学校的样态很多元所以在我的版本里面其实提到了不同样态的学校包含公私立的高级中等学校学校形态的实验教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].start |
28814.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].end |
28834.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[1058].text |
就是职工办公营的实验教育或者是私立的实验教育学校或是原住民族学校特殊教育学校其他经主管机关认定适用的学校那幼儿园的部分可能也会有涉及因为有非常多的国小里面有设置幼儿园所以这个部分待会要拜托主席留时间让国教署说明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].start |
28835.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].end |
28856.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[1059].text |
那另外我要說現在在所謂羅廷偉委員的版本裡面其實把午餐晚餐寒暑假期間的公餐甚至還有替代公餐都包含進去了這個部分我其實也有一些擔心在財化法之後當然非常多的財源都到地方去了但是地方政府是不是有認知到 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].start |
28857.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].end |
28876.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[1060].text |
他們在跟教育部開會的過程當中如果這個版本是今天才提出來的修正動議是不是地方政府都清楚了未來他們要負擔學生們的用餐並不會只有午餐還包含晚餐還暑假期間的公餐或是替代公餐這個部分也要拜託國教署公開說明第三個我要補充說明的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].start |
28877.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].end |
28893.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[1061].text |
我剛剛所謂的大家沒有意見是我們本來以為其實是要回過頭來在電視螢幕上大家要去看逐個文字要怎麼調整跟修正可是很快主席就進入到說好保留可是我要提的是到底是保留送出委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].start |
28894.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].end |
28915.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[1062].text |
日後再協商還是保留等到委員會之後我們在主條進行review跟文字的協商因為確實條文很多然後很多事情我認為地方政府的意見可能也還沒有收集完整所以我是不是就可以先行建議我希望今天我們後續可能大家在文字上沒有共識在做法上還沒有共識的版本應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].start |
28917.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].end |
28933.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[1063].text |
還需要留在委員會裡面我們可以就整個法案全部都走完之後再回頭來看然後再一次的委員會裡面再review如果在沒有共識的部分才是送出委員會出去協商以上我的建議是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].start |
28936.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].end |
28936.636 |
| transcript.whisperx[1064].text |
請吳教委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].start |
28965.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].end |
28988.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[1065].text |
因為條文非常多我看到第四條多數的委員會載明就是學校公參的各級學校大概會列出來而還包括從幼兒園也列進來然後公立學校私立學校也列進來實驗學校也列進來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].start |
28990.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].end |
29002.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[1066].text |
原住民族学校也载民然后特殊教育学校也载民那教育部就非常的简要本条例所称学校指高级中等以下学校 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].start |
29003.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].end |
29026.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[1067].text |
那教育部為什麼選擇一個一個非常寒闊的方式來處理它那您的意思是包括了多數委員所提的這些學校都在規範的學校內涵裡面嗎我擔心會不會漏掉所以這個要請主管機關做說明好 請我們的主管機關說明 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].start |
29037.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].end |
29063.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[1068].text |
謝謝剛剛召委等包含召委的版本跟發言的委員總共可以歸納至少有三點我們要回應第一個是對學校的定義一般在我們本委員會對學校的定義建築各個法有兩種呈現的方式有一種是直接在法條內有一種是寫在立法的說明以往 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].start |
29064.468 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].end |
29082.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[1069].text |
我們對於學校不管是學校衛生法以來在學校這兩個字的定義那麼它有一個比較明確的定義就是它未含幼兒園以及非學校型態的實驗教育那因為在上一次也有一些軍警 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].start |
29082.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].end |
29100.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[1070].text |
少年矯正學校的相關單位也有做一點說明說他們公餐型態比較特別因此我們以往有的體例會寫在立法說明一是他未含幼兒園二他沒有含學校型態實驗教育以及像軍事 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].start |
29101.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].end |
29123.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[1071].text |
警察以及少年矯正學校等他非屬本條例規範的對象因為公差現在比較特別那個會予以在立法說明這邊予以做說明跟排除那麼第二點是有關培育委員他問了一個非常清楚的說明在目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].start |
29124.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].end |
29145.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[1072].text |
召委跟柯先生委員等所提的第二項有擴大了本法可能要供餐的面向包含晚餐含暑假甚至替代性供餐這一點陳培鈺委員很清楚的詢問 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].start |
29146.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].end |
29172.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[1073].text |
是否有跟地方政府有一些討論溝通抱歉因為這個是剛看到的版本我要非常坦率的說是還沒有跟地方政府就委員所提案的第二項進行進一步的會商那以目前初看到的文字現行各縣市公餐的情況可能以晚餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].start |
29173.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].end |
29195.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[1074].text |
替代性共產這兩個會比較少眾那以寒暑假這個在以往我們做弱勢照顧時就剩餘經費可能在有一些縣市在寒暑假可能會有一些經費來做處理譬如說餐券但是就像晚餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].start |
29196.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].end |
29224.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[1075].text |
那個就會變成是比較留校的才比較有可能雖然不是那麼普遍那替代性公餐這個在定義上又更為比較新可能要請委員在於說給我們指教那以就這整個第二項來講以地方政府可能這個要二十二縣市的形態因為目前剛聽到會比較多元那麼也是多增加來讓學校可能也比較辛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].start |
29225.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].end |
29252.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[1076].text |
可能這個要給我們時間跟地方好好的做一些討論也讓我們多聆聽意見 以上補充 謝謝好 那所以我們現在是不是看螢幕那因為委員說看螢幕嘛那我們就照螢幕上面的文字那我提議委員有沒有要什麼建議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].start |
29256.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].end |
29281.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[1077].text |
如果按照署長剛剛的建議第四條你說根據學校的這個定義其實是在其他的相關辦法都寫得很清楚那其他委員們所擔心的這些事情如果就這個寫法沒有意見大家覺得可以的話我基本上沒有太多的意見那只是說現在這個寫法也是因為高級中等以下學校它的主責其實在地方政府對吧署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].start |
29281.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].end |
29284.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[1078].text |
他的很多行政措施的主責是在地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].start |
29291.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].end |
29312.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[1079].text |
以三千八百多個高級中等以下學校高中部分教育部大概佔三分之二那國中小部分地方政府的學校大概佔九成九大概是這樣好所以看起來確實是地方政府如果都溝通過也都沒有意見那我認為第四條如果按照這個版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].start |
29312.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].end |
29329.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[1080].text |
也沒有意見的話我個人沒有意見那不過就是剛剛羅廷偉委員的版本裡面就是這個修正動議我們今天大家才看到這個修正動議我不確定委員是不是有堅持一定要放進來如果有的話我覺得是要提出來討論的就是你的修正動議第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].start |
29330.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].end |
29349.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[1081].text |
那我對於這個電視上的版本如果教育部覺得OK我沒有意見要看其他委員好 是不是目前螢幕上是以教育部的版本寫上去那是不是也請委員參酌一下我們國民黨跟民眾黨整合的一個版本的文字大家參考一下 如果沒有拿到的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].start |
29367.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].end |
29390.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[1082].text |
好 那現場呢有教育部的版本那也有委員所提議的這一個版本可以參考那是不是有委員提議要以教育部的版本來通過同意用教育部的版本好 有委員提議要用教育部的版本那有委員有沒有意見好 請蔡總統委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].start |
29394.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].end |
29408.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[1083].text |
我剛剛看到修正東藝裡面有談到晚餐在銀陵縣其他縣市我是不知道銀陵縣小學都會有所謂的月光天使 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].start |
29409.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].end |
29436.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[1084].text |
那這個月光天使就是小朋友就留下來比較弱勢的小朋友呢留到晚上8點那這個晚餐呢如果說也依據我們的午餐的這樣的一個的一個辦法來規範這個晚餐我覺得也是對學生呢也是一種保障啦所以像有一些晚餐他是跟著學企一起做的所以這個晚餐是不是可以在 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].start |
29441.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].end |
29460.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[1085].text |
第四條跟委員報告因為我們的版本有寫晚餐啦對好那因為有委員提案要用教育部的版本那也有委員對於自己版本有一些意見那所以我們就本案保留送院會處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].start |
29462.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].end |
29491.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[1086].text |
主席等一下我都要立刻在你讲完话之后我现在都要高度关注你的每一句讲话的据点然后我要马上举手好我刚刚有一个建议我先说谢谢主席参考我刚刚有建议就是说我们每一个条文要回去看对送一幕对对逛一幕但是第二个我要建议是不是根据教文过去还蛮长在这种大部法案修法的时候我们其实很多条文会在整个看完之后再回来在委员会再review一遍我举一个例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].start |
29492.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].end |
29509.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[1087].text |
之前在柯志恩委員當召委的那個會期學輔法其實他橫跨了兩個會期那也是因為專輔人員的薪資也好或者是專輔人員的師生比其實地方政府跟中央政府真的花很多時間討論而且不同專業的老師進來有不同的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].start |
29511.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].end |
29535.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[1088].text |
所以我們真的花了非常非常多時間在委員會裡面處理尤其涉及到修大法那當時學福法還只是修法還不是立新法但現在不論是所謂的公餐法或是營養午餐法anyway它其實是一個新的法所以我是不是要再次懇請主席我們不要就直接宣告送出委員會之後送協商我真的想要拜託 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].start |
29536.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].end |
29554.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[1089].text |
我們整部法案走完之後大家再回來review一次文字真的有高度沒有共識的或者是地方政府跟專屋政府還沒有搞定的我們再送到協商我現在再就舉一個例子主席你看到你手上這一份 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].start |
29555.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].end |
29573.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[1090].text |
你們今天提出來的修正動議不論是你的簽名比較大還是柯志恩委員佔了你的提案人的位子在你們的版本裡面你們的第四條寫的叫做公餐但是到了第五條寫的是學校午餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].start |
29574.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].end |
29592.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[1091].text |
那如果按照剛剛蔡專酬委員提到雲林的案例那第四條跟第五條就打架了捏 撞牆了捏你知道我意思嗎就變成你要求要供晚餐供寒暑假的供餐還有替代供餐可是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].start |
29592.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].end |
29607.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[1092].text |
當你第五條的時候你又說在吃飯的時候還要推動飲食教育啊食農教育可是只有午餐耶那我不懂假設未來真的第四條通過了晚餐還暑假的公餐替代公餐這邊就不用管食農教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].start |
29607.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].end |
29625.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[1093].text |
也不用管營養教育這樣聽起來很怪對不對所以我才會說我們光是你們自己提出來的修正東西就發現文字上的bug更何況未來所有三十幾個版本通過後如果我們不在委員會裡面在主條針對文字或是前後的寫法做調整我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].start |
29626.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].end |
29654.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[1094].text |
送出去協商其實真的不是好事因為在協商的現場可能更沒有時間大家針對這麼多細節而且在協商的現場通常也不會是教文的本委可能會是三長去處理的那根據我過去當三長的經驗我認為所有的教文委員今天都已經出席這麼多人了我們就好好的在這邊把有問題的部分我們就先留在教文委員會裡面我覺得會是更專業而且更認真的修法那我們再把 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].start |
29655.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].end |
29684.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[1095].text |
高度争议的部分送出委员会我觉得这是比较好的做法那谢谢主席谢谢好所以委员具体的建议是希望照往例然后我们就是保留再回过头来对因为我们走完这么多条一定会发现前前后后的文字写法啦调整啦这样或者是今天我们的公开修法现场可能有地方政府回头看了之后发现要许我那条我没有办法买单他们可能就打电话跟交易部抗议啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].start |
29684.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].end |
29710.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[1096].text |
所以如果我們就貿貿然的送出去委員會最後是留到所謂的幹部協商我認為其實這樣對地方政府也好對教育部也好對於所有的在處理營養午餐的人我覺得都有點可惜啦我們不如就在委員會裡面好好的主張然後整部房回來一定要再review過一次這是我的建議既然你都排案了你這麼在意這個事情所以裴委員我具體的問就是說你希望照腕力嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].start |
29711.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].end |
29726.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[1097].text |
對 但是那個慣例並不是指一定要按照慣例而是我背後的邏輯跟論述是這樣的OK OK 好那我就回應你一下因為剛剛我在處理消失會議相關辦法的時候你叫我不要追溯20年前相關的慣例我剛剛那我們新人有新氣象 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].start |
29728.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].end |
29743.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[1098].text |
我們應該要以現階段審議我的風格就是要直接處理拖了十幾二十年沒辦法處理的法案我要推進那委員擔心送到三長三長不太了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].start |
29743.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].end |
29767.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[1099].text |
我相信我跟蔡總統委員我會代表國民黨我會要求國民黨三長一定要讓我全程陪同那送院會協商處理相信蔡總統委員的認真也一定會代表民眾黨到時三長的討論一定會有我跟蔡總統委員那我們一定會在這段時間送院會協商處理的冷凍期那持續的收集更多的意見所以請委員不用擔心 以上好 我們第四條主席我可以再回應你嗎既然你都回應我了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].start |
29773.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].end |
29789.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[1100].text |
主席我可以回應你嗎可以啊可以啊我還是要再次主張喔你剛剛用前面你那個我說你很慌沒有提案這件事情說嘛你說你那個叫慣例喔慣例指的是發生的頻率高低而且主席我剛剛其實在我說前例好你說慣例 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].start |
29791.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].end |
29810.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[1101].text |
那對不起 更正潛力好 那但你剛剛說是關你而且我要說在我們剛剛討論你的再一次跟你對不起我改正你不用不用你剛剛在處理這個提案的時候其實我剛剛也公開建議你啊我說如果你認為當時那個那些委員的寫法說什麼背離民意也好啦還是沒有聽地方的聲音你覺得這個寫法很厲害很棒 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].start |
29810.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].end |
29836.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[1102].text |
你把它一念再念一念再念那我當時的建議你說你就寫進你自己的提案裡頭啊然後這個提案會留在公報裡頭嘛就留下歷史記錄啦大家不會只有看竹字稿嘛對不對那我講的是這個意思那我現在講的是為了法案本身的好這件事情我想要一再的論述這件事情因為主席光是你自己今天才提出來的修正動議你的第四條跟第五條寫的就有發生漢格了捏 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].start |
29837.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].end |
29867.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[1103].text |
光是这么简单的事情我们就找到了bug那你认为你真的认为每一条全部都送出去然后我们在所谓三长协商院长协商的时候是要请韩院长跟各党的三长陪着我们一条一条然后用三十几个版本来看吗那我现在更好奇的是你到时候送出去要协商的内容你到底是要送哪个版本你是要送你今天手上这个修正动议版本还是教育部的版本还是这三十几个版本后后这一叠再送出去协商我不懂我真心不懂那请主席回答我 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].start |
29868.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].end |
29882.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[1104].text |
還是你覺得到時候你就送你自己的修正動議版本可是我剛剛就說了嘛我現在談得到這個第四條第五條就發生了bug欸那主席你回答我或是議事人員你可以教主席嗎到時候送出去在幹部三長協商海運長坐在那邊協商的時候到底是協商哪一個版本修正動議都會保留 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].start |
29894.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].end |
29910.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[1105].text |
好來我們就繼續主席你沒有回答我你要送哪個版本出去我們修正動議剛剛醫事人員有提到都會保留那基本上我們跟民眾黨高度的共識就是今天的修正動議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].start |
29911.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].end |
29935.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[1106].text |
那我想委員對於我們的版本有所指教我們也都非常感謝也希望委員能夠提出更多的建議讓我們的版本越來越好那所以我們也會透過院會協商處理的過程機制還有冷凍期一個月內再持續的跟大家彙整更多的意見到時院會協商處理的時候會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].start |
29936.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].end |
29962.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[1107].text |
再納入各方的意見好所以主席那我跟您再次確認所以我們透過院會送協商處理也是有這樣子一個機制存在好那既然議事人員都已經代替您給我答案了就是說修正動議會一併送出去那以下我的論述我想問一下教育部的版本也會被送出去嗎還有所有這些提案委員的這麼一點二三十個版本也會被送出去嗎請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].start |
29965.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].end |
29969.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[1108].text |
主席我想知道 剛才您說你們在協商的時候民眾黨跟國民黨會有高度的共識那我們民進黨的委員七個人坐在這邊一個字一個字為我們的條文為了我們每一個字是不是用的得當是不是在這個法條裡面是不是有很真確的去表達到我們都很認真的在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].start |
29987.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].end |
30008.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[1109].text |
但是被您保留出去之後您告訴我說因為國民黨跟民眾黨有高度的共識那是不是我們的聲音就被忽略掉那我們現在在討論什麼請一併回答而且主席既然你在跟議事人員討論我要再一次強調剛剛秀寶委員提的是一個非常關鍵的問題請大家現在看一看 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].start |
30011.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].end |
30030.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[1110].text |
4點53分從今天下午2點40分開始不論是校事會議的提案修法或者是現在坐在這裡談營養午餐的請問國民黨的委員誰出現了除了你擔任主席擔任召委之外請問誰出現了葉元之協尋葉元之柯志恩我協尋柯志恩我協尋葛如君 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].start |
30032.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].end |
30058.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[1111].text |
謝龍健呢平常也不愛來謝龍健算了我差點忘記他了這些人請問你們在哪裡結果最後主席你剛剛用一個非常蠻橫的說法說你沒有回答我到底要送什麼版本出去然後你只跟我說藍白有共識所以難道最後協商的版本是藍白然後我們今天所有這些民進黨委員坐在這裡幫你們背書何其的荒謬就算你地方政府大部分你們認為所有地方首長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].start |
30059.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].end |
30062.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[1112].text |
多數超過是藍白加起來的執政所以你們說了算那請問你們還要甚至還要修法修荒謬的法什麼水電費啦牛奶費啦到時候國產食材費還要交一部買單請問這樣的說法難道民進黨委員的意見都不用參採嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].start |
30076.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].end |
30094.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[1113].text |
我覺得非常非常的荒謬所以你剛剛第一次在回答我的問題的時候你還是沒有公開回答我的問題請問到時候送到韓國瑜院長面前寫上的版本是什麼版本如果真的按照你所說的你只送出去今天你們藍白這個一下就被我發現寫錯修正動議或者是你只送 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].start |
30095.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].end |
30117.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[1114].text |
教育部的版本我都覺得非常非常的荒謬啊所以主席你要不要公開回答你不願意在整部法案討論後留在教文逐條再次review你不願意參考你的前輩柯之恩的做法就算他今天沒有來他當時在修學輔法的時候我們橫跨了會期我們橫跨了非常非常多的討論大家甚至在某一個條文上 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].start |
30119.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].end |
30147.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[1115].text |
關於專府人員的薪資我們花了兩三個小時這件事情主席這個叫做優良的慣例這個叫做負責任的立法這個叫做兼顧行政跟立法之間平衡的立法委員該做的事情今天立法委員沒有大到你坐在這裡修法地方政府就要買單或是教育部要買單這叫做侵害行政權而且你不是只有侵害中央的行政權你甚至認為你大到可以指揮地方政府全部聽你的話用你的版本去做事 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].start |
30148.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].end |
30167.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[1116].text |
沒有這樣的事情主席那今天所有出席的民進黨委員請何以堪我們所有的版本你就決定丟包了嗎你剛回答沒有回答我主席請你公開說清楚你不願意在委員會逐條談完之後逐條再次在委員會review是為了什麼原因請你公開說明二 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].start |
30168.917 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].end |
30194.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[1117].text |
如果你堅持要送出去協商你到底會送出去什麼版本三 請你公開說明如果你們國民黨今天真的這麼在意營養午餐的修法請問哪個國民黨委員出席我再次點名柯志恩 葉元之 葛羅軍 謝龍介出席了嗎 說明了嗎 參與討論了嗎還有羅志強委員大安區委員小孩命不是命營養午餐吃不用在意是這樣嗎葉元之委員來自板橋謝龍介來自台南柯志恩委員來自高雄 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].start |
30195.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].end |
30199.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[1118].text |
然後你還好意思大聲跟我說這個是你們藍白有共識的版本請主席公開回答我剛剛提問的所有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].start |
30208.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].end |
30238.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[1119].text |
跟委員特別報告那因為我們希望能夠加速推進的原因是我們看到目前在這個營養午餐法已經討論了數十年我們希望能夠持續的推進並且是有效率推進那有鑒於最近的食安問題營養午餐的一些關係大家也都很關注那希望透過立法的方式能夠來保障那委員擔心會有丟包別人的版本這個部分不用擔心因為修正動議是跟著 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].start |
30238.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].end |
30265.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[1120].text |
各委員提案的版本一併進入到下一個程序那委員有沒有有特別關心這個教育部建議文字那建議文字的部分就議事委員再三確定因為它不是版本它不是願版它只是建議文字所以它不會出現在這個黨團協商的一個部分那我也要跟委員特別報告因為修正動議的部分國民黨跟民眾黨雖然是高度共識但是我們是以 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].start |
30266.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].end |
30284.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[1121].text |
教育部建議文字為基底來做一個發想以上是特別跟委員說明不會丟包委員自己的版本那也歡迎委員再透過委員會另外的時間自己可以再跟其他委員來整合版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].start |
30286.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].end |
30299.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[1122].text |
我們七個人我們的版本都在這裡我們很認真的逐字在審查那你為什麼要我們很認真的發言之後我們很認真的對每一個字每一個條我們很認真講過之後我還在發言可不可以等我發言完我建議你可以整合你就很氣憤你剛剛建議我的提案版本寫得不夠好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].start |
30311.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].end |
30327.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[1123].text |
我就不能夠說那你自己提版本這樣子好像又很奇怪所以我說將心比心你建議我我不採納那我讓你講完我建議你我也沒有強制對不對這個不是有強制 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].start |
30328.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].end |
30337.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[1124].text |
我只是要告訴你 你也不要一直提到不用提柯之恩他們柯之恩委員多次跟我們利用許多的時間我們把國民黨所有的委員還有民眾黨提案的版本一直努力的在整合這裡面有葉元芝的建議他一直跟我們開會也有謝榮介委員也有柯之恩委員也有葛如君委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].start |
30354.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].end |
30377.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[1125].text |
大家一同努力把它整合版本今天我們希望透過整合的版本彙整來跟大家共同討論以上簡單的跟大家特別報告那接著我們要來處理沒有主席我要我剛剛在你發言的時候我就有舉手而且我很有禮貌不敢打斷你我手一直舉著我可以發言嗎我認為你沒有打斷我的發言是是是所以我一定要尊重讓你發言謝謝主席這是會議程序好我還是要再次強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].start |
30382.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].end |
30393.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[1126].text |
為什麼我要點名這些沒有來的委員我敢點名我就敢說明我們沒有辦法接受的是你認為這個修正動議是今天才提出來的其實連教育部 國教署也是今天才看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].start |
30394.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].end |
30420.395 |
| transcript.whisperx[1127].text |
食安事件我相信大家都關心喔其實不用說誰關心誰不關心但我要說的是如果這個修正動議主席你剛剛公開的說是藍白高度共識所以你的做法是選擇快速出委員會而且你認為這樣的結論才符合國人關心食安那我要說你以為你解決了一個問題但我會擔心會製造更多的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].start |
30421.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].end |
30446.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[1128].text |
光是這個版本地方政府沒有看過教育部沒有看過我不知道未來在協商的時候如果在那之前所有地方政府針對今天要送出去的這些提出什麼意義請問誰要來負責藍白的這些提案的委員也好你們認為有高度共識的委員也好真的可以去跟地方政府解釋嗎還是到時候你們要丟包說誰叫教育部沒有願版你們只有建議文字 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].start |
30449.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].end |
30470.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[1129].text |
這麼不負責任的說法其實一句政治口水可能就把所有過去教育部跟各級地方政府在這個議題上的努力一筆給抹殺了我再次強調我沒有說誰的修正動議好或是不好剛剛對你的第四條跟第五條提出建議的是我不是陳秀寶委員我要講的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].start |
30471.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].end |
30496.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[1130].text |
你還是沒有回答我第四條跟第五條啊那你就回答我第四條跟第五條你這個寫法你自己沒有發現了嗎我現在提醒你你要不要發現然後你回答我嘛再來我不確定主席你有沒有參加過所謂的三長加韓國瑜院長的協商我們桌上今天所有這些厚厚的資料到時候都送到委員會去然後我們要所有的三長一條一條那是不是到時候真的就像用 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].start |
30497.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].end |
30519.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[1131].text |
用剛剛秀寶委員擔心的最粗暴的方法就是用所謂藍白的協議然後就通過了然後逼教育部買單更不要說後續會不會有多少的費用你們會逼著教育部要來承擔逼國教署也來承擔但是明明開出免費營養午餐政策紅利支票的是現在的地方首長而這件事情難道不用拿委員會來討論嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].start |
30521.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].end |
30535.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[1132].text |
我要講的是過去教育委員會就算我只有進來立法院三年我們在非常多有爭議的法案上不論是人力的爭議或者是資源的爭議預算的爭議或者是中央地方分工的爭議大家真的要坐下來好好討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].start |
30537.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].end |
30559.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[1133].text |
我們不要因人廢言也不要因人廢事我剛剛雖然點名柯志恩委員今天沒有出席可是我也從來沒有否定在學輔法的時候國民黨民進黨的委員大家坐下來認真討論關於一筆一筆的錢怎麼算關於跟社工之間有沒有什麼競合大家是坐下來實質討論的我到現在不用談餐我都可以舉出一些例子所以我要說的是那樣的討論花時間的討論是極其重要而且極其有意義的如果你認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].start |
30565.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].end |
30593.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[1134].text |
解決了今天快速把它的推出去送到三長跟韓國瑜院長面前去協商就是所謂的快速解決問題那我要問你真的覺得這樣就可以快速解決問題嗎會不會你其實製造並且創造了更多的問題其實是沒有辦法解決的所以我認為你既然都已經要排審了既然認為你是最注重這件事情的人那就好好的談吧不是只有看電視上的文字看完就說好你看喔陳培芸我有看囉我看囉我看囉然後好送出去協商 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].start |
30594.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].end |
30621.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[1135].text |
沒有這回事了 主席不要這麼粗暴 不要這麼蠻橫 不要這麼獨裁不要不理會委員會的程序今天我們所有人坐在這裡我真的覺得我很像在陪公子您讀書耶我真的覺得我很像在陪您讀書 陪公子讀書所有人在意的事情 你一聲不吭不說 不回答 你說了就算你要送就送 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].start |
30623.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].end |
30632.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[1136].text |
我現在就公開要求呼籲那韓院長要不要來看一看你們國民黨的召委是這樣對待營養午餐專訪是這樣關心食安的我真的覺得今天所有出席的民進黨委員在陪你們這些公子讀書陪你們這些不出席的委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].start |
30643.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].end |
30672.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[1137].text |
然後你們說關心這是何其荒謬啊我們不要在教文創造這樣的氛圍今天我們都已經做下來了上一次我們讓國教署長在你們離席之後我們讓他說明了五分多鐘在跟地方政府溝通上發現了困境請大家看一看署長手上有多少資料署長花了多少力氣在處理這些事情但可能過去幾個月幾年來的努力就會被這一本薄薄的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].start |
30674.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].end |
30703.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[1138].text |
立刻在第一頁就會發現寫錯前面一條跟後面一條發生漢格的修正動議提案人叫做柯之恩羅廷偉跟蔡春籌的這一份版本說是高度藍白共識的版本過去署長跟部長的努力預算人員的努力法制人員的努力地方教育組長的努力就被一筆抹殺這是你所謂的解決食安問題的方法嗎這是你所謂照顧中小學生食安的方法嗎這是你認為有效率的方法嗎我一點都不這麼認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].start |
30704.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].end |
30721.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[1139].text |
如果很樂意因為營養午餐因為食安因為地方教育局處的權益因為國教署的權益因為我們在意這件事情而坐在這裡像是在陪公子讀書一樣陪你待到現在未來每一個禮拜你輪到召委的時候我相信你會繼續排我們就繼續就繼續讓國人看看我們的羅廷偉召委選擇用這樣的方法對待營養午餐 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].start |
30730.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].end |
30752.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[1140].text |
好 謝謝那也跟委員特別報告黨團協商或者是院長協調的時候機關部會都可以提出建議文字來加以修正公與會的委員都會現場來做參考那委員比較擔心的部分我想因為剛剛委員也有提案是直接照教育部版本通過 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].start |
30754.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].end |
30769.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[1141].text |
對嘛那所以只是因為有其他的委員也有其他的意見所以我們在目前為止沒辦法整合起來所以就想說送院會協商處理並沒有說要用透過非常強硬的方式那這個也是因為你們有錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].start |
30770.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].end |
30786.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[1142].text |
有提出希望照教育部版本看得出來現場的委員也是非常用心希望能夠有推進的部分那希望能夠把營養午餐法持續的再有所精進喔所以我想這個部分也跟大家做一個特別報告那所以我們今天並不是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].start |
30787.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].end |
30815.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[1143].text |
陪誰修法你們大家都很認真喔但是也有教育部建議文字嘛那可能就是因為沒有辦法只透過教育部建議文字那其他的委員有建議那所以我們就有需要再協商所以透過保留送院會處理大家再透過協商的方式再生產出更多的一些共識之外再協商的過程看看能不能有一些共識然後把它定掉如果沒有共識的話最後才送院會表決處理所以我們跟大家特別報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].start |
30816.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].end |
30841.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[1144].text |
不是直接表決 我們是送院會的協商那到時候山長 像剛剛委員也有提到他很擔心山長不了解這個法案所以希望說有教文的陪同我想蔡總委員跟我也都在這邊現場同意山長在協商的過程我們都願意陪伴來說明我們的院會我們在院會協商的時候的一個責任這是應該要把它說清楚講明白 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].start |
30842.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].end |
30850.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[1145].text |
那再來就是剛剛委員對於我們的版本有這個用字遣詞有相互漢格這是委員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].start |
30853.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].end |
30880.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[1146].text |
評斷那我們當然尊重那基本上呢還是希望說委員如果您覺得這個有漢格的部分您覺得有不妥的是不是你也可以提出你的版本我們就直接推進那現在教育部主管機關要建議要發而言請說謝謝召委都很尊重我們那我這個主管機關的部分有幾個剛剛有跟包含蔡委員還有相關提案的委員說明目前第四條 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].start |
30881.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].end |
30904.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[1147].text |
那委員提案增列第二項這個因為它非常的涉及到地方政府尤其是學校剛剛蔡委員有提到夜光天使夜光天使現在全國我們高中以下的班有九萬多個班它是756班 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].start |
30906.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].end |
30926.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[1148].text |
算是不多的版但是如果以他現在他在進行的我們所有師長們都滿應應學生的需求那麼因為他也相對比較偏鄉他不太能夠用中午的那一個廚房 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].start |
30927.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].end |
30956.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[1149].text |
繼續煮所以他工餐要靈活一點比較能夠既幫忙學校能夠運作也能夠幫忙這些比較辛苦的家庭的孩子所以這個是指晚餐另外替代工餐有提到這個就可能會更讓基層的我們的基層的夥伴已經很辛苦看到這個恐怕他就會變成比較多的延伸 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].start |
30957.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].end |
30978.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[1150].text |
這就會讓我們的老師現在已經很辛苦然後又有第四條的第二項這樣的文字然後如果是我們以教文委員的名義 那老師也不一定知道然後再協商的話 我怕昭偉其實也很理解現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].start |
30982.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].end |
31007.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[1151].text |
這樣對本委員會長期以來一直解決不管行政減量或是老師很辛苦怎麼樣幫他們可以這個化解一些已經很辛苦的部分讓他更容易的留在職場上甚至我們也讓他可以更解除他的一些為難之處但是這個第四條第二項我看到了我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].start |
31008.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].end |
31030.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[1152].text |
一方面也沒有跟地方好好的了解一下這樣的一個條文會不會讓他們很錯愕二方面我深深覺得基層老師看到可能他會不知道這個是十幾位委員就還或是教育部甚至地方政府最後就到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].start |
31032.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].end |
31055.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[1153].text |
大委員會那個院會那邊去溝通我怕會造成對院裡面的誤會因為這個文字真的讓我們的基層老師可能真的會很辛苦那地方也會覺得這個延伸跟現況的工作差異很大如果拿這個文字要進到大委員會去協調 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].start |
31059.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].end |
31068.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[1154].text |
我覺得這個可能會對昭緯會不會很不好意思您長期這麼關心基層那你再看一下目前這個條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].start |
31070.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].end |
31092.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[1155].text |
除了供午餐還有晚餐還暑假供餐然後再拉了一個替代供餐可能請召委要不要還有蔡委員有在現場要不要再掌握就是說給我們機會跟地方再溝通因為這個文字我們長期的經驗會覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].start |
31094.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].end |
31118.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[1156].text |
可能會要非常的用力跟地方跟學校來說明說有這樣的一個文字那我們站在原則上我們覺得這樣的文字可能跟現在學校已經這麼努力還要再這樣會真的他們不知道這個拿去在大會那邊說這個可能他們會不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].start |
31120.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].end |
31137.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[1157].text |
這一點這樣可能會對所有今天參與的委員 包含召委跟提案的委員可能會有誤會我把我這個言則跟大家報告一下好 謝謝我們國教署署長特別說明所以我再次的強調 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].start |
31140.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].end |
31166.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[1158].text |
我們提案委員的版本跟修正動議會一併送出我們今天不是照我們現在的修正動議照案通過所以請看著直播的國人還有國教署教育部不用擔心今天我們不是照這個版本就直接通過我們還有後續的程序那個程序叫做院會協商那也會由我親自來主持相關的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].start |
31168.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].end |
31186.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[1159].text |
院會協商的過程協商的部分我會處理院會協商可能就要三長那我也會一定要建議三長一定要讓我們參加那還是心心念念要特別拜託教育部啊教育部如果覺得自己的建議文字這麼棒的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].start |
31187.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].end |
31216.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[1160].text |
還是趕快出院版趕快出教育部自己的版本這個部分是最能夠貼近大家現場的需求那我想剛剛因為今天不是說不要過這個版本教育部也很堅持自己的版本可能會比較用字遣詞比較不會這麼的讓大家擔憂那我們都尊重所以我們所通過的是保留協商處理並不是照案通過任何一個版本這以上簡單跟大家報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].start |
31218.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].end |
31233.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[1161].text |
好主席我有舉手我很乖我等到你講完我都沒有把手放下來我就跟你講過了只要你大家照意識程序規則你舉手你沒有打斷別人我們一定會尊重你讓你講話請放心好不好好接下來陳佩玉委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].start |
31235.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].end |
31252.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[1162].text |
好 謝謝主席謝謝署長剛剛針對午餐晚餐寒假的部分先提出你們的建議跟第一線參考意見我也想要舉一個例子目前我們在看到其實雙北的老師在營養午餐最近有一些新聞是這樣說的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].start |
31253.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].end |
31269.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[1163].text |
说学生营养午餐免费然后课后班的学生也要留下来把饭吃完再回家也就是所有的小孩都免费了可是当所有的小孩都免费要留下来吃饭的时候就衍生出了另外一个问题就是导师要留下来陪小孩吃饭 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].start |
31270.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].end |
31285.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[1164].text |
那導師要留下來陪小孩吃飯呢過去有的導師他如果孩子已經放學了沒有留下來吃飯導師就可以先走他可以自己去處理午餐他自己愛花多少錢愛去吃多少東西這是老師的自由那因為老師要留下來陪孩子們吃飯了嘛所以就有縣市政府說那我們就來幫老師出錢吧這樣一餐不論是多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].start |
31288.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].end |
31313.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[1165].text |
可是对老师来说这个吃饭的钱不是关键重点而是说老师原本的课后休息时间就因为这样就消失了他必须要陪孩子一定要吃完午餐再走那就产生了很多的争议我的意思就是说刚刚署长其实在讲的就是这件事情光是陪孩子留下来吃一天午餐这件事情其实很多老师第一线老师已经把基层的声音反映给很多县市政府了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].start |
31314.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].end |
31335.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[1166].text |
而這個聲音就像剛剛署長所說的未來如果通過的版本是沒有經過委員會的教文委員細緻的討論只有流到協商區真的我們所有的立法委員都會被誤會甚至不了解議事程序的人如果去翻開今天的議事物相關公報發現天啊全部都是民進黨委員坐在現場 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].start |
31336.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].end |
31357.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[1167].text |
挺好哦全部都是民意黨委員坐在現場所以難道是民意黨委員要迫害現場老師做出這個決議嗎當然不是我剛剛的說法跟建議非常的清楚請主席再聽一次既然你都說了有冷凍期一個月那主席你不要放在那裡冷凍太可惜了不要把它冰起來你這麼熱情這麼熱心這麼想要解決這個問題這一個月不要冰起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].start |
31358.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].end |
31376.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[1168].text |
主席在未來這一個月你至少還有兩次兩個禮拜會輪到你當召委這兩個禮拜當中你可以卯起來一三四一三四都盤營養午餐你有六次的機會可以好好的逐條審查然後然後我們再回來review所有的版本等到所有版本期益最小 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].start |
31377.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].end |
31388.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[1169].text |
紛爭最小留到協商現場那個是最有效率的也就是說我們把前面這一個月冷凍期拿來做在委員會裡面該做的事情真的是比較好的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].start |
31389.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].end |
31412.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[1170].text |
那我认为我这个建议真的是本着良心也本着希望这个法案最后送出去的内容真的是一兼顾地方跟中央的分工二兼顾裁员跟人力三兼顾教师家长还有学生的权益最后兼顾一个负责任的立法委员可以做的事情所以朱熹不要冷冻一个月了太可惜了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].start |
31413.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].end |
31415.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[1171].text |
雖然現在夏天很熱 但不要冷凍我們那一個月裡面 主席你有兩週你134 134 貓起來排反正你們國民黨都研會了嘛你們因為要開司法保護傘 貓起來研會了那你就開 開好開滿 我們就陪你做好做滿我們陪你一起討論國民黨不來 柯子仁不來 謝榮介不來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].start |
31432.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].end |
31459.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[1172].text |
葉元之不來葛如君不來沒關係我們來陪你談然後就一條一條談我真的再次強烈建議公開呼籲拜託主席懇求主席不要這麼草率的把所有沒有辦法經過主條討論的東西全部丟包到協商去那個真的不是一個好的處理民生法案而且試射這麼多學生權益不要忘了他有幼兒園他有小學六年國中三年還有高中 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].start |
31460.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].end |
31487.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[1173].text |
這麼多學生三千多所中小學的權益不應該在我們教文被這樣對待好 說到這個我還是呼應我們培育委員真的處理民生法案我們也希望行政院應該要負責任提出自己的願板不要讓我們等了等等了等等了還是等等不到就一直持續的放在這邊冷凍那剛剛委員有提議就是說我還有排案的時間那 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].start |
31489.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].end |
31497.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[1174].text |
我也是覺得時間不太夠所以我也很希望說未來能夠有更多欸你插話了我等一下再舉手這樣不行啊我都讓你完整論述你都不讓我論述 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].start |
31505.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].end |
31531.189 |
| transcript.whisperx[1175].text |
當然我可以你說的嘛就是說不要冷凍期一個月繼續排繩但是我也要回應一下委員因為其他還有運動部那文化部有相關的一些專案報告那包括我們的這個公民體育法在還沒有處理兒童工作證之前相關的事情是不是有一個配套來協助處理那上次我還有提到這個電競專法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].start |
31533.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].end |
31562.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[1176].text |
那這些都是我很關注的一些法案所以我自己的時間也都不夠那委員既然這麼支持我希望我能夠持續的排審喔是不是也麻煩委員幫我建議一下民進黨黨團是不是就直接把下週的排審也都丟給羅廷偉讓我來處理我會讓你看到我滿滿的誠意我一定會讓你看到我持續不會放棄堅持的一個理念我會繼續排給你看那我的時間是真的不夠用所以我必須要透過我能夠擔任召委的時候來推進那以上簡單的跟您報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].start |
31562.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].end |
31576.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[1177].text |
那因為培育委員您這個多次發言然後剛剛又還有打斷我的發言那比較沒有尊重這個議事程序那所以我就先交給蔡村首委員發言因為他有舉手而且他沒有這麼多次發言不好意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].start |
31578.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].end |
31579.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[1178].text |
針對剛剛署長對於學校的午餐有關於晚餐的部分是月光天使通常這個月光天使是留下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].start |
31594.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].end |
31600.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[1179].text |
然後他有他一定的不是他們班的導師留下來因為他是全部的學生部分的學生留下還有他主管他的那個這個月光天使的主任還有老師來做處理但是沒有關係我覺得說我們署長的一個說明也很清楚可能就是說會造成學校很多的一個困擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].start |
31620.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].end |
31625.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[1180].text |
這個我也同意 就用教育部的條例版本來處理 以上這樣子 我一個建議 村長委員因為其實他們剛剛也有建議 第四條照教育部的版本 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].start |
31644.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].end |
31665.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[1181].text |
國教署署長也有開口啦說怕有誤會啦那他們的文字比較可以有這個空間啦是不是我們也不要這麼堅持第四條我認為是可以照教育部建議修正教育部版本建議文字修正好不好那我們兩個沒意見配合大家嘛好 那 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].start |
31668.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].end |
31692.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[1182].text |
教育部的建議文字是本條例所稱學校指高級中等以下學校那這個部分呢因為剛剛有委員也特別提議那是要以教育部建議修正文字那我們就第四條修正通過照教育部建議的文字好我們繼續往下推進 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].start |
31697.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].end |
31713.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[1183].text |
好現在來到了第五條那第五條因為第五條又重新開始計算我們的發言次數了那就請我們的這一個那個議員委員不好意思因為你舉手比較慢所以我要先給那個陳佩玉委員因為他現在就是重新發言計算 |
| transcript.whisperx[1184].start |
31714.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[1184].end |
31742.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[1184].text |
那陳培宇委員在發言之前我就還是要拜託就我們不要打斷他講話的這個過程因為他也答應我們不會打斷我們那如果你打斷我們的話那我可能我就沒辦法照議事程序繼續主持那我可能就要先給其他的委員來做一個發言那也請陳培宇委員能夠體諒因為處理這個議事程序的時候我想大家都還是希望盡可能的公正那因為你剛剛有稍微打斷到我我覺得這樣子是不對的再次提醒你 |
| transcript.whisperx[1185].start |
31742.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[1185].end |
31746.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[1185].text |
那以上這個我們陳培宇委員請發言謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[1186].start |
31753.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[1186].end |
31773.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[1186].text |
我先說一下所以從現在開始只要是羅廷偉主席所主持的任何會議我們就會有發言次數的限制嗎或者是有發言時間的限制嗎我要先請主席待會一併回應那回到第五條這件事情之前我想要針對剛剛沒辦法發言的部分我要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[1187].start |
31774.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[1187].end |
31780.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[1187].text |
之前羅廷偉委員其實已經騙過吳立華委員兩次了所以吳立華委員就給了兩天因為你說拿去開全院委員會你覺得你的權益受損所以你請吳立華給你兩天吳立華委員非常善良非常好心給了你兩天可是當時也沒有看到寧排預算所以我要公開的說吳立華委員會有他自己的排案會有他自己的邏輯 |
| transcript.whisperx[1188].start |
31798.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[1188].end |
31822.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[1188].text |
既然各自担任召委就有自己的分工实在是没有必要公开讨拍要武力华委员还要让时间给你这是极其的荒谬如果你真的觉得你很急你时间不够了那不就落实了我刚刚所说的吗你其实没有审慎的谨慎的在评估原来一样午餐需要花这么多时间讨论所以你就决定用送出去送出去送出去这个方法最后 |
| transcript.whisperx[1189].start |
31822.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[1189].end |
31849.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[1189].text |
落得去所謂的院長協商我真的覺得不是最好的方法再來我要說之所以沒有院版其實當時教育部跟國教署早在非常非常早之前就已經說明了他們持續在跟地方政府開會我在三年前進到立法院前面幾次的質詢我就已經談到關於營養午餐當時我也不敢貿貿然地要求專法主要的原因我們不是不知道專法有其必要跟有其重要性 |
| transcript.whisperx[1190].start |
31849.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[1190].end |
31869.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[1190].text |
但是我想舉一個非常簡單的例子以我自己所在的社區一條路上五所學校可能就有五種收費方法五種公餐模式那不過那不過就是一個台北市的一條路上而已而光是台北市一條路上的這五所學校就有不同的樣態更不要說整個台北市然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[1191].start |
31869.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[1191].end |
31897.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[1191].text |
更不要說整個台灣22個縣市所以我會說當時我們辦公室不斷地在這三年之間跟教育部溝通從國產食材從食材登錄到飲食教育到食農教育到營養師的比例到儲供怎麼算然後到團善業者之間的關係或者是公辦公營民辦民營等等的或者不同學校的樣態我隨便就可以舉出10個問題我認為是教育部要持續跟地方政府溝通收集意見的 |
| transcript.whisperx[1192].start |
31898.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[1192].end |
31921.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[1192].text |
在意見收集非常充分之後我認為我們才有資格做一個負責任的立法委員而不是把所有你以為你所想要的都是對的全部丟包給國教署或是丟包給地方政府所以我要說他們從來沒有像你所說的不在營養午餐這個議題上努力我對面的科長我就不要講他的名字他非常的認真踏實我看到他 |
| transcript.whisperx[1193].start |
31922.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[1193].end |
31951.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[1193].text |
接下这份工作以来他对营养午餐在第一线不论是跟团散业者不论是跟家长团体不论是跟教师团体跟地方政府的沟通花掉他非常非常多的力气但是他没有放弃他经验依然坐在我们教文委员会听着每一个委员的发言看着每一个委员的提案这就是我们教育不同人最辛苦的地方因为教育的失误他事涉重要的地方的分工所以讲了这么多而且我每一次都要换不同的说法就是因为我想要用 |
| transcript.whisperx[1194].start |
31952.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[1194].end |
31971.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[1194].text |
我充滿了誠意跟拜託的心情想要請求主席我要再次的說雖然你剛剛已經宣告了但是主席回頭不晚沒有很難踩下煞車等一下從第五條開始我真的建議只要沒有共識只要還沒有蒐集好地方政府的意見我真的認為我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[1195].start |
31973.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[1195].end |
31994.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[1195].text |
不是不審而是留在委員會整部法案回過頭來再逐一討論光是剛剛到底要不要供晚餐這件事情其實你也發現了要不是我們再給署長一次說明的機會讓蔡春籌委員得以反轉過來說好他可以接受教育部的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1196].start |
31996.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[1196].end |
32024.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[1196].text |
我不知道到時候我們原來的版本如果送進委員會會發生什麼事情這就是我剛說的為什麼留在委員會裡面讓委員會中心主義發揮它的功能一直是民進黨團不管在哪一個委員會在哪一個會期在哪一個法案甚至是預算案上我們所積極主張的如果今天委員會淪為過水送送送協商協商協商送送送協商協商協商那我們今天真的不需要坐在這裡而且主席請你放眼看去 |
| transcript.whisperx[1197].start |
32024.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[1197].end |
32026.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[1197].text |
今天有多少教育部的同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[1198].start |
32027.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[1198].end |
32057.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[1198].text |
陪同大家出席在这里我相信他们想要听到的是真的实质的讨论然后发现了很大的bug再拜托国教署回去跟地方政府讨论地方政府再把意见送回来我们可以有非常非常多时间讨论所以针对第五条我当然有我的看法如果时间允许我当然愿意谈但我更想谈的是拜托主席我再次拜托在谢隆介委员柯之恩委员叶炎之委员葛如君委员罗志强委员都没有出席的今天这个下午 |
| transcript.whisperx[1199].start |
32058.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[1199].end |
32079.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[1199].text |
我真的不認為我們就只是說大家沒有共識送出去協商這是一個好的做法不 這是一個最不好的做法我認為也罔顧了今天沒有出席的這些國民黨委員的意見非常可惜搞不好他們跟我是一樣有共識的他們搞不好也認為留在委員會裡面好好的整本談完之後再review一遍才是更好的做法以上 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[1200].start |
32080.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[1200].end |
32108.856 |
| transcript.whisperx[1200].text |
謝謝你真的感謝你還剩一分鐘可以讓我處理事情先回應一下我待會讓你發言不好意思那我們沒有次數的限制一定讓你暢所欲言但是剛剛是因為你有打斷別人的程序發言不是你有打斷我的發言所以我有跟你講解所以我請蔡卷軸委員先發言並不是不讓你發言但我們在處理的剛剛這個第四條也不是大家有異議而是大家都有同意你比如說剛剛有好像民進黨的委員說要照 |
| transcript.whisperx[1201].start |
32109.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[1201].end |
32129.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[1201].text |
教育部的文字嘛那所以國民黨跟民眾黨也都同意了所以剛剛是一致認同就以教育部的文字來處理所以就直接照教育部的修正通過這跟您以上報告一下並沒有說一意孤行這是有共識的情況去處理這件事情那不好意思我現在先處理會議時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[1202].start |
32135.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[1202].end |
32156.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[1202].text |
校會時間我們繼續進行學校午餐及飲食教育條例的草案我們到處理完畢為止反對 反對 反對好 反對 清點人數柯之恩沒來 葉元之沒來 羅志強 葛如君 謝龍介在哪裡 站出來啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[1203].start |
32158.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[1203].end |
32162.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[1203].text |
反對 然後等一下羅廷偉就會去剪影片說民進黨反對休餘養成專法民進黨不支持學生的食安民進黨不顧小孩抗議 抗議 抗議那我們希望能夠處理到完畢為止喔繼續加油 來為大家審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[1204].start |
32177.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[1204].end |
32185.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[1204].text |
主席請處理我們的反對主席請處理我們的反對我要處理你的反對了嘛所以我清點人數要投票了嘛主席真的很沒有人性耶我早上五點多從台南坐車七點多來這邊簽到你看大家都陪同到現在搞整天你還要搞到晚上嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[1205].start |
32201.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[1205].end |
32215.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[1205].text |
對不起 我早上有沒有比你早重點是我們應該沒有我第二名講話的你第幾個我台南來的欸這不管不管你自己要講時間誰比較早我比你還早你怎麼不說主席那我抗議 |
| transcript.whisperx[1206].start |
32216.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[1206].end |
32224.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[1206].text |
可以接受你的抗議所以現在要來表決了嘛我沒有說一定要到12點啊我現在是不是問你們意見不是啊 這個東西可以好好的責其在神那為什麼一定要在現在我覺得你處理這件事情我覺得你處理還要延後這個開會我也覺得很納悶你這種處理方式沒有人性 |
| transcript.whisperx[1207].start |
32242.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[1207].end |
32258.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[1207].text |
你覺得沒有人性但我希望這個趕快能夠推進沒有人性謝謝你啦這是你的建議啦你覺得工作太累那您可以去休息但是您不可以說想要繼續做的人說沒有人性我不是你們國民黨的其他的同仁就都不來沒關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[1208].start |
32261.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[1208].end |
32288.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[1208].text |
好 會議時間 我們主席我要先提醒你一件事喔你做了一件很大的錯誤喔是是是因為已經超過五點半你才要處理綜藝照例說你把會議紀錄剛剛二十九分的時候就可以處理我剛剛就被你們插話來來來 看一下會議紀錄裡面是下五點半照理說你只要過了五點半你就不能處理綜藝在立院職權行使法裡面主席超過啊超過啊你根本就在犯法好 我知道 最後讓我講幾句話嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[1209].start |
32290.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[1209].end |
32305.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[1209].text |
二十九分的時候要處理結果被你們拖到所以就沒辦法處理喔這個我我也要抗議阿你國民黨都沒來柯志森都有來你抗議你抗議沒有事葉元智都有來葛如君都有來謝榮介都有來羅致強都有來然後我們這些民進黨的朋友你在這邊你剛剛不是說要讓我去講 |
| transcript.whisperx[1210].start |
32308.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[1210].end |
32326.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[1210].text |
謝謝啦那我也不能處理動議了啦那不好意思因為超過了30分齁那很可惜剛剛29分我要清點人數要準備投票的時候那透過委員的發言那超過這個時間我們只好尊重那今天我們就只好折旗再審 |
| transcript.whisperx[1211].start |
32329.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[1211].end |
32342.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[1211].text |
審查結果免於重複宣讀 啊 對不起 抱歉學校午餐及飲食教育條例相關草案定期繼續審查報告委員會今日議程處理完畢 現在散會 |