iVOD / 170929
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許忠信 @ 第11屆第5會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:06,000 | 主席 |
| 00:00:06,000 | 00:00:10,000 | 各位同仁 我們有請劉世芳劉部長 |
| 00:00:14,000 | 00:00:15,000 | 部長好 |
| 00:00:16,000 | 00:00:17,000 | 徐委員您好 |
| 00:00:17,000 | 00:00:18,000 | 部長好 |
| 00:00:19,000 | 00:00:23,000 | 聽說您17年要降格為千戶大人 |
| 00:00:24,000 | 00:00:27,000 | 千戶大人 日本的愛里長 |
| 00:00:27,000 | 00:00:29,000 | 你是中央的部長 |
| 00:00:29,000 | 00:00:34,000 | 千萬不要在17年變成千戶大人 |
| 00:00:34,000 | 00:00:41,000 | 社會素材的興建 急速的跳票下降 |
| 00:00:41,000 | 00:00:47,000 | 造成我們造基投資者以穩健收益 |
| 00:00:47,000 | 00:00:54,000 | 誘發穩健投資人購買高利息的私募公司災而受害 |
| 00:00:54,000 | 00:00:57,000 | 制度中心責無旁貸 |
| 00:00:57,000 | 00:01:00,000 | 這個法律關係如何來理解 |
| 00:01:00,000 | 00:01:03,000 | 我做了一個體系圖來跟部長做報告 |
| 00:01:04,000 | 00:01:09,000 | 當我們根據公司法248條私募公司災的時候 |
| 00:01:09,000 | 00:01:11,000 | 它有兩種情形 |
| 00:01:12,000 | 00:01:15,000 | 當它有擔保這個公司災穩定 |
| 00:01:15,000 | 00:01:18,000 | 所以它是低利息 |
| 00:01:19,000 | 00:01:22,000 | 不論公司做高風險低風險投資 |
| 00:01:22,000 | 00:01:24,000 | 它都是低利息 |
| 00:01:24,000 | 00:01:28,000 | 因為它穩定本金利息可以回收 |
| 00:01:28,000 | 00:01:32,000 | 但是當私募公司災無擔保的時候 |
| 00:01:33,000 | 00:01:37,000 | 正常情形它會低利息 |
| 00:01:38,000 | 00:01:41,000 | 公司做低風險投資 |
| 00:01:41,000 | 00:01:43,000 | 這個時候投資人 |
| 00:01:43,000 | 00:01:47,000 | 他乃是仰賴發行公司的債信 |
| 00:01:47,000 | 00:01:50,000 | 將來會還還他本金跟利息 |
| 00:01:51,000 | 00:01:55,000 | 但是當無擔保公司災有高利息 |
| 00:01:55,000 | 00:02:03,000 | 包括我們技機協年息10.5%的年息高利息 |
| 00:02:03,000 | 00:02:08,000 | 以及造機12%年息的高利息的時候 |
| 00:02:08,000 | 00:02:11,000 | 如果公司做高風險投資 |
| 00:02:12,000 | 00:02:13,000 | 這個時候 |
| 00:02:14,000 | 00:02:17,000 | 他買公司災其實類似買股票 |
| 00:02:17,000 | 00:02:19,000 | 也就是我表格裡面最下一行 |
| 00:02:20,000 | 00:02:23,000 | 但是當他獲得這樣一個高利息 |
| 00:02:24,000 | 00:02:28,000 | 他本來是要投資一個低風險的投資 |
| 00:02:28,000 | 00:02:31,000 | 結果卻被李建成掏空而受害 |
| 00:02:31,000 | 00:02:33,000 | 這個時候有玄機了 |
| 00:02:34,000 | 00:02:36,000 | 為什麼這些投資人 |
| 00:02:37,000 | 00:02:40,000 | 他要獲高利10% |
| 00:02:40,000 | 00:02:44,000 | 值點5到12%的利息 |
| 00:02:44,000 | 00:02:45,000 | 這是高利息 |
| 00:02:45,000 | 00:02:46,000 | 我們現在平均利息 |
| 00:02:47,000 | 00:02:49,000 | 銀行大概1%、2%而已 |
| 00:02:50,000 | 00:02:51,000 | 所以很顯然他是高利息 |
| 00:02:51,000 | 00:02:54,000 | 當然很多人趨之若鶩 |
| 00:02:55,000 | 00:02:56,000 | 趨之若鶩的原因 |
| 00:02:57,000 | 00:03:00,000 | 沒有想到李建成會掏空變成受害 |
| 00:03:01,000 | 00:03:05,000 | 那他們為什麼要去做這個投資 |
| 00:03:06,000 | 00:03:07,000 | 有兩個關係 |
| 00:03:07,000 | 00:03:08,000 | 人跟物 |
| 00:03:09,000 | 00:03:14,000 | 物就是剛才部長您被講成117年 |
| 00:03:14,000 | 00:03:17,000 | 要變成千戶大人這件事情 |
| 00:03:18,000 | 00:03:20,000 | 也就是政府少見社會住宅 |
| 00:03:21,000 | 00:03:25,000 | 增多包租代管的業務 |
| 00:03:25,000 | 00:03:27,000 | 增多包租代管的業務 |
| 00:03:27,000 | 00:03:31,000 | 讓這些公司災的投資人認為 |
| 00:03:31,000 | 00:03:35,000 | 造機不管是造機造機還是寄居縣 |
| 00:03:36,000 | 00:03:38,000 | 他們的包租業 |
| 00:03:38,000 | 00:03:39,000 | 這個包租代管的業務 |
| 00:03:39,000 | 00:03:44,000 | 會有穩定的增加或是穩定 |
| 00:03:45,000 | 00:03:46,000 | 所以這是物的關係 |
| 00:03:46,000 | 00:03:50,000 | 也就是政府的社會住宅的跳票 |
| 00:03:50,000 | 00:03:53,000 | 多包租代管這個趨勢 |
| 00:03:53,000 | 00:03:57,000 | 被公司災的投資人信以為 |
| 00:03:57,000 | 00:03:59,000 | 他做這個公司災投資 |
| 00:03:59,000 | 00:04:02,000 | 他可以穩定的回收他的投資 |
| 00:04:02,000 | 00:04:04,000 | 那另外就是有人的關係 |
| 00:04:04,000 | 00:04:06,000 | 這個人的關係 |
| 00:04:07,000 | 00:04:09,000 | 我們根據媒體報導 |
| 00:04:10,000 | 00:04:15,000 | 我們花敬群董事長跟李建成 |
| 00:04:16,000 | 00:04:18,000 | 你們的關係如何 |
| 00:04:20,000 | 00:04:21,000 | 你們的關係如何 |
| 00:04:23,000 | 00:04:25,000 | 花董事長你跟李建成的關係如何 |
| 00:04:29,000 | 00:04:30,000 | 是 |
| 00:04:31,000 | 00:04:33,000 | 包委員當然就是因為從事 |
| 00:04:33,000 | 00:04:36,000 | 他從事社會住宅包租代管工作之後 |
| 00:04:36,000 | 00:04:37,000 | 彼此才認識 |
| 00:04:38,000 | 00:04:41,000 | 這一疊資料是受害人拿出來 |
| 00:04:41,000 | 00:04:45,000 | 跟我申訴的他們的私募公司災的資料 |
| 00:04:45,000 | 00:04:46,000 | 這麼大疊 |
| 00:04:46,000 | 00:04:50,000 | 我全部看完全部做了EARMARK |
| 00:04:52,000 | 00:04:54,000 | 據我推測您花信 |
| 00:04:55,000 | 00:04:57,000 | 應該是我們台南後幣 |
| 00:04:57,000 | 00:04:58,000 | 不是 |
| 00:04:58,000 | 00:04:59,000 | 那邊有花信 |
| 00:04:59,000 | 00:05:00,000 | 很少 |
| 00:05:01,000 | 00:05:03,000 | 所以我跟你無怨無仇 |
| 00:05:05,000 | 00:05:10,000 | 所以今天我們是要了解這些投資人 |
| 00:05:10,000 | 00:05:13,000 | 為什麼要來做這樣一個投資 |
| 00:05:13,000 | 00:05:15,000 | 我跟委員報告 |
| 00:05:15,000 | 00:05:18,000 | 造基公司這麼多年來做的社會住宅包租代管 |
| 00:05:18,000 | 00:05:22,000 | 其實三分之二是縣市政府的案件 |
| 00:05:22,000 | 00:05:25,000 | 三分之一是中央政府的案件 |
| 00:05:25,000 | 00:05:28,000 | 所以說造基過去的經營業務 |
| 00:05:28,000 | 00:05:31,000 | 被民眾信任的基礎 |
| 00:05:31,000 | 00:05:36,000 | 其實有三分之二是來自縣市政府包租代管的案件 |
| 00:05:36,000 | 00:05:39,000 | 所以說不能把這樣子的說好像 |
| 00:05:39,000 | 00:05:41,000 | 這是我的宰諱 |
| 00:05:41,000 | 00:05:43,000 | 你跟李建成的關係 |
| 00:05:43,000 | 00:05:45,000 | 根據您的媒體回應 |
| 00:05:45,000 | 00:05:47,000 | 你說跟他只爬過一次山 |
| 00:05:47,000 | 00:05:48,000 | 是 |
| 00:05:48,000 | 00:05:53,000 | 但是媒體的報導是說你們是經常爬山的山友 |
| 00:05:53,000 | 00:05:55,000 | 那是委員你們說的吧 |
| 00:05:55,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 媒體為什麼這樣說我不知道啊 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:05:59,000 | 就是這個問題 |
| 00:05:59,000 | 00:06:01,000 | 也就是說你不殺博人 |
| 00:06:01,000 | 00:06:02,000 | 博人因你而死 |
| 00:06:02,000 | 00:06:03,000 | 新聞報告 |
| 00:06:03,000 | 00:06:05,000 | 媒體報導也是這幾天的事 |
| 00:06:05,000 | 00:06:08,000 | 但是投資人投資這些公司債 |
| 00:06:08,000 | 00:06:10,000 | 是前幾年的事 |
| 00:06:10,000 | 00:06:11,000 | 他怎麼會有關係呢 |
| 00:06:11,000 | 00:06:13,000 | 這個是這樣子 |
| 00:06:13,000 | 00:06:15,000 | 當媒體這樣報導的時候 |
| 00:06:15,000 | 00:06:18,000 | 我們很多人這樣講說 |
| 00:06:18,000 | 00:06:21,000 | 我發董事長跟李建成的關係回前 |
| 00:06:21,000 | 00:06:25,000 | 我想我這個人是非上二分別的很清楚 |
| 00:06:25,000 | 00:06:26,000 | 所以說 |
| 00:06:26,000 | 00:06:29,000 | 請相信我這個人對是非上二的態度 |
| 00:06:29,000 | 00:06:31,000 | 我剛才講到 |
| 00:06:31,000 | 00:06:33,000 | 你不殺博人博人因你而死 |
| 00:06:33,000 | 00:06:36,000 | 媒體報導你跟李建成的關係 |
| 00:06:36,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 可能博人是因你而死而不是因我而死 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:40,000 | 投資人 |
| 00:06:40,000 | 00:06:42,000 | 看到你跟李的關係 |
| 00:06:42,000 | 00:06:45,000 | 看到我們少建社會住宅 |
| 00:06:45,000 | 00:06:46,000 | 你是導國委員了 |
| 00:06:46,000 | 00:06:48,000 | 這幾天的報導就是這幾天 |
| 00:06:48,000 | 00:06:50,000 | 投資人是過去幾年的決策 |
| 00:06:50,000 | 00:06:53,000 | 投資人怎麼會看到我跟李建成 |
| 00:06:53,000 | 00:06:55,000 | 被媒體報導的關係 |
| 00:06:55,000 | 00:06:57,000 | 不是只有媒體報導的關係 |
| 00:06:57,000 | 00:06:59,000 | 也就是說你跟李建成 |
| 00:06:59,000 | 00:07:01,000 | 剛才你的答覆就講到 |
| 00:07:01,000 | 00:07:03,000 | 因為包租代管的業務 |
| 00:07:03,000 | 00:07:04,000 | 你跟他熟悉什麼 |
| 00:07:04,000 | 00:07:06,000 | 我想柯文哲跟他更熟吧 |
| 00:07:06,000 | 00:07:07,000 | 我不知道 |
| 00:07:07,000 | 00:07:09,000 | 那就去問嘛 |
| 00:07:09,000 | 00:07:10,000 | 董事長 |
| 00:07:10,000 | 00:07:13,000 | 我們造基大概包租代管的業務 |
| 00:07:13,000 | 00:07:15,000 | 有三成由他們得標 |
| 00:07:15,000 | 00:07:16,000 | 大概有三成由他們得標 |
| 00:07:16,000 | 00:07:18,000 | 沒有兩成 |
| 00:07:18,000 | 00:07:19,000 | 兩成 |
| 00:07:19,000 | 00:07:20,000 | 沒關係 |
| 00:07:20,000 | 00:07:22,000 | 兩成三成都可以 |
| 00:07:22,000 | 00:07:26,000 | 但是台北市政府造基的比重更高 |
| 00:07:26,000 | 00:07:27,000 | 新北市政府 |
| 00:07:27,000 | 00:07:28,000 | 台元市政府 |
| 00:07:28,000 | 00:07:29,000 | 台中市政府 |
| 00:07:29,000 | 00:07:31,000 | 麻煩我們去查一查 |
| 00:07:31,000 | 00:07:32,000 | 我們都全部來看 |
| 00:07:32,000 | 00:07:35,000 | 那就不需要說只有我有關係嘛 |
| 00:07:35,000 | 00:07:38,000 | 您跟李建成的關係 |
| 00:07:38,000 | 00:07:40,000 | 以及政府少建社 |
| 00:07:40,000 | 00:07:43,000 | 我跟李建成就是因為業務上面認識 |
| 00:07:43,000 | 00:07:45,000 | 彼此為了推動業務 |
| 00:07:46,000 | 00:07:49,000 | 有些時候跟產業一起在開貨的時候 |
| 00:07:49,000 | 00:07:50,000 | 會一起討論 |
| 00:07:50,000 | 00:07:53,000 | 那一次的爬山就是造基公司 |
| 00:07:53,000 | 00:07:56,000 | 邀請了產業界二三十位朋友 |
| 00:07:56,000 | 00:07:58,000 | 一起在平等裡 |
| 00:07:58,000 | 00:07:59,000 | 就這麼一次 |
| 00:07:59,000 | 00:08:01,000 | 那你要把它說到 |
| 00:08:01,000 | 00:08:04,000 | 好像我們有怎麼樣子的幕後黑手 |
| 00:08:04,000 | 00:08:05,000 | 等等 |
| 00:08:05,000 | 00:08:06,000 | 我覺得好像有點 |
| 00:08:06,000 | 00:08:08,000 | 我沒有說以致幕後黑手 |
| 00:08:08,000 | 00:08:09,000 | 比例關係 |
| 00:08:09,000 | 00:08:11,000 | 因為這個人的關係 |
| 00:08:11,000 | 00:08:14,000 | 跟社會住宅少見而多 |
| 00:08:14,000 | 00:08:16,000 | 包租代管的業務 |
| 00:08:16,000 | 00:08:17,000 | 讓投資人認為 |
| 00:08:17,000 | 00:08:19,000 | 他們這是一個穩健投資 |
| 00:08:19,000 | 00:08:21,000 | 固定的造基 |
| 00:08:21,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 社會住宅包租代管 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:24,000 | 本來就是一個非常穩健的投資標的 |
| 00:08:24,000 | 00:08:27,000 | 所以說絕大多數的業者 |
| 00:08:27,000 | 00:08:29,000 | 都穩健經營當中 |
| 00:08:29,000 | 00:08:31,000 | 所以現在就受害 |
| 00:08:31,000 | 00:08:32,000 | 所以這是他個人的問題 |
| 00:08:32,000 | 00:08:35,000 | 而不是這個行業的問題 |
| 00:08:35,000 | 00:08:37,000 | 不管是造基或是寄居蟹 |
| 00:08:37,000 | 00:08:39,000 | 公司在的 |
| 00:08:39,000 | 00:08:40,000 | 公司在使用目的 |
| 00:08:40,000 | 00:08:42,000 | 都是要做包租代管 |
| 00:08:42,000 | 00:08:43,000 | 包租代管 |
| 00:08:43,000 | 00:08:45,000 | 捷運包租代管等業務 |
| 00:08:45,000 | 00:08:48,000 | 沒有做其他的風險投資 |
| 00:08:48,000 | 00:08:50,000 | 那為什麼他們投資 |
| 00:08:50,000 | 00:08:52,000 | 李建成目前資金座怎麼使用 |
| 00:08:52,000 | 00:08:54,000 | 他已經不是包租代管的問題 |
| 00:08:54,000 | 00:08:57,000 | 那是公司在相關的監理的問題 |
| 00:08:57,000 | 00:08:59,000 | 這個是這樣 |
| 00:08:59,000 | 00:09:02,000 | 我們這些公司在募集 |
| 00:09:02,000 | 00:09:03,000 | 有他的目的 |
| 00:09:03,000 | 00:09:05,000 | 你們把它謀做高風險的投資 |
| 00:09:05,000 | 00:09:06,000 | 不是我們 |
| 00:09:06,000 | 00:09:07,000 | 是他不是我們 |
| 00:09:07,000 | 00:09:09,000 | 我沒有在那個門裡面 |
| 00:09:09,000 | 00:09:11,000 | 的確是這樣 |
| 00:09:11,000 | 00:09:14,000 | 但是造基跟寄居蟹 |
| 00:09:14,000 | 00:09:17,000 | 把這些穩健的公司在 |
| 00:09:17,000 | 00:09:20,000 | 拿來做高風險的投資 |
| 00:09:20,000 | 00:09:23,000 | 欸 董事長 |
| 00:09:23,000 | 00:09:25,000 | 您的在信 |
| 00:09:25,000 | 00:09:28,000 | 我們住都中心的在信 |
| 00:09:28,000 | 00:09:30,000 | 被業者用來 |
| 00:09:30,000 | 00:09:33,000 | 做為籌資的工具 |
| 00:09:33,000 | 00:09:34,000 | 包委員 |
| 00:09:34,000 | 00:09:36,000 | 社會住宅包租代管政策 |
| 00:09:36,000 | 00:09:39,000 | 不等於國家住都中心 |
| 00:09:39,000 | 00:09:41,000 | 也不等於我花錢取 |
| 00:09:41,000 | 00:09:45,000 | 你硬要把這些東西扯到我的身上 |
| 00:09:45,000 | 00:09:46,000 | 扯到住都中心身上 |
| 00:09:46,000 | 00:09:48,000 | 其實我覺得你學法律 |
| 00:09:48,000 | 00:09:50,000 | 你是法律系大教授 |
| 00:09:50,000 | 00:09:51,000 | 你不應該有這樣的邏輯觀念 |
| 00:09:51,000 | 00:09:54,000 | 我就是因為學法我才知道 |
| 00:09:54,000 | 00:09:55,000 | 所以你的邏輯很奇怪 |
| 00:09:55,000 | 00:09:58,000 | 投資人就是因為有人的關係 |
| 00:09:58,000 | 00:09:59,000 | 有物的關係 |
| 00:09:59,000 | 00:10:01,000 | 他才願意來私募這個公司在 |
| 00:10:01,000 | 00:10:03,000 | 他以為他是穩健投資 |
| 00:10:03,000 | 00:10:06,000 | 可以每年10.5%的利息 |
| 00:10:06,000 | 00:10:08,000 | 12%的利息 |
| 00:10:08,000 | 00:10:10,000 | 結果卻被掏空 |
| 00:10:10,000 | 00:10:11,000 | 是 |
| 00:10:11,000 | 00:10:13,000 | 就是因為我學法才知道公司在 |
| 00:10:13,000 | 00:10:15,000 | 之所以能夠被 |
| 00:10:15,000 | 00:10:17,000 | 喜歡投資 |
| 00:10:17,000 | 00:10:19,000 | 他本來他要做穩健投資的 |
| 00:10:19,000 | 00:10:21,000 | 結果他現在受害了 |
| 00:10:22,000 | 00:10:23,000 | 我們怎麼辦 |
| 00:10:23,000 | 00:10:25,000 | 所以他跟包租代管業務的吹動 |
| 00:10:25,000 | 00:10:26,000 | 一點關係都沒有啊 |
| 00:10:26,000 | 00:10:29,000 | 他是拿到那筆錢的時候 |
| 00:10:29,000 | 00:10:31,000 | 他是不可以用那筆錢嘛 |
| 00:10:31,000 | 00:10:32,000 | 他沒有人 |
| 00:10:32,000 | 00:10:33,000 | 他不受到 |
| 00:10:33,000 | 00:10:34,000 | 包租代管 |
| 00:10:34,000 | 00:10:35,000 | 我覺得 |
| 00:10:35,000 | 00:10:36,000 | 而你跟你的關係 |
| 00:10:36,000 | 00:10:38,000 | 我很遺憾 |
| 00:10:38,000 | 00:10:41,000 | 我很遺憾陳大教授是這樣子來分析理論的 |
| 00:10:41,000 | 00:10:42,000 | 我很遺憾 |
| 00:10:42,000 | 00:10:43,000 | 我至少我不遺憾 |
| 00:10:43,000 | 00:10:44,000 | 沒關係 |
| 00:10:45,000 | 00:10:50,000 | 我今天分析這個公司在之所以能夠有吸引力 |
| 00:10:50,000 | 00:10:52,000 | 就是有人的關係 |
| 00:10:52,000 | 00:10:53,000 | 跟這個物 |
| 00:10:53,000 | 00:10:55,000 | 也就是我們的 |
| 00:10:55,000 | 00:10:57,000 | 社會素材少見 |
| 00:10:57,000 | 00:10:59,000 | 而要增多包租代管的業務 |
| 00:10:59,000 | 00:11:01,000 | 所以投資人認為我來投資這個 |
| 00:11:01,000 | 00:11:03,000 | 有利可圖 |
| 00:11:03,000 | 00:11:04,000 | 所以他來投資 |
| 00:11:04,000 | 00:11:06,000 | 您責無旁貸 |
| 00:11:07,000 | 00:11:09,000 | 尊重委員的質詢和說法 |
| 00:11:09,000 | 00:11:12,000 | 但是道理或事實只有一個 |
| 00:11:12,000 | 00:11:14,000 | 邏輯怎麼樣是對的也只有一種 |
| 00:11:14,000 | 00:11:15,000 | 我追疊資料 |
| 00:11:15,000 | 00:11:16,000 | 我尊重您 |
| 00:11:16,000 | 00:11:18,000 | 至少還可以三次記者會 |
| 00:11:18,000 | 00:11:20,000 | 跟各位公布裡面的事實 |
| 00:11:22,000 | 00:11:23,000 | 追疊資料 |
| 00:11:24,000 | 00:11:25,000 | 我親自讀 |
| 00:11:25,000 | 00:11:27,000 | 裡面至少還有三個問題 |
| 00:11:27,000 | 00:11:28,000 | 我要跟你請教 |
| 00:11:29,000 | 00:11:30,000 | 謝謝我們董事長 |
| 00:11:30,000 | 00:11:31,000 | 謝謝市長 |
| 00:11:31,000 | 00:11:32,000 | 謝謝部長 |
| 00:11:34,000 | 00:11:35,000 | 謝謝 |