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沈伯洋 @ 第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:10,800 | 謝謝主席 有請部長跟署長 謝謝 |
| 00:00:10,800 | 00:00:13,000 | 請時部長跟江署長 |
| 00:00:13,000 | 00:00:15,000 | 市委員好 |
| 00:00:15,000 | 00:00:20,000 | 那這個因為我看到今天這個質詢也比較多啦 |
| 00:00:20,000 | 00:00:23,000 | 那這個未完的時間通常也會稍微拉長一點 |
| 00:00:23,000 | 00:00:24,000 | 所以我簡要問 |
| 00:00:24,000 | 00:00:28,000 | 就是說我們接下來這一個修法有幾個方向 |
| 00:00:28,000 | 00:00:30,000 | 那第一個方向就是說 |
| 00:00:30,000 | 00:00:34,000 | 因為今天不管今天業者出了什麼問題 |
| 00:00:34,000 | 00:00:37,000 | 今天業者他一定是驗了之後他發現有問題 |
| 00:00:37,000 | 00:00:40,000 | 那我就看到就這一次的修法裡面 |
| 00:00:40,000 | 00:00:44,000 | 他就把一些責任從業者移到檢驗的單位 |
| 00:00:44,000 | 00:00:48,000 | 那我那時候跟其他委員討論的時候 |
| 00:00:48,000 | 00:00:49,000 | 我們就認為說好 |
| 00:00:49,000 | 00:00:50,000 | 那這個檢驗的單位 |
| 00:00:50,000 | 00:00:52,000 | 因為業者可能會有隱瞞的問題 |
| 00:00:52,000 | 00:00:54,000 | 當然他隱瞞問題他會有隱瞞的責任 |
| 00:00:54,000 | 00:00:55,000 | 他會有其他的責任 |
| 00:00:55,000 | 00:00:59,000 | 那如果檢驗的單位他能夠去分擔 |
| 00:00:59,000 | 00:01:00,000 | 他變成說他也往上報 |
| 00:01:00,000 | 00:01:01,000 | 那這樣的話 |
| 00:01:01,000 | 00:01:04,000 | 或許我們就可以及時的掌握到第一手的資料 |
| 00:01:04,000 | 00:01:05,000 | 好 |
| 00:01:05,000 | 00:01:07,000 | 但是我們那時候在討論的時候就說 |
| 00:01:07,000 | 00:01:10,000 | 因為檢驗的單位要回報這件事情 |
| 00:01:10,000 | 00:01:11,000 | 到底要設門檻還是不要 |
| 00:01:11,000 | 00:01:13,000 | 也就是說比如說他是有疑慮的 |
| 00:01:13,000 | 00:01:14,000 | 或他超標了 |
| 00:01:14,000 | 00:01:15,000 | 所以他就要回報 |
| 00:01:15,000 | 00:01:18,000 | 還是說不管結果為何他都要回報 |
| 00:01:18,000 | 00:01:21,000 | 那在這邊我看到院板的設計看起來 |
| 00:01:21,000 | 00:01:24,000 | 就是無論如何他都要回報 |
| 00:01:24,000 | 00:01:26,000 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:01:26,000 | 00:01:30,000 | 我們是用一個授權的授權辦法 |
| 00:01:30,000 | 00:01:32,000 | 會來逐步推動 |
| 00:01:32,000 | 00:01:34,000 | 第一個從業別的選擇 |
| 00:01:34,000 | 00:01:36,000 | 哪一些是比較高風險的 |
| 00:01:36,000 | 00:01:40,000 | 或者是影響性比較大的業別開始 |
| 00:01:40,000 | 00:01:43,000 | 然後第二個這個檢驗的話 |
| 00:01:43,000 | 00:01:46,000 | 會先從第一步從有異常時通報開始 |
| 00:01:46,000 | 00:01:50,000 | 然後到逐步的進入到全面的系統化之後 |
| 00:01:50,000 | 00:01:51,000 | 就借接了 |
| 00:01:51,000 | 00:01:53,000 | API借接整個借接起來 |
| 00:01:53,000 | 00:01:55,000 | 所以他就不需要再另外通報 |
| 00:01:55,000 | 00:01:58,000 | 等於就檢驗結果上傳的概念 |
| 00:01:58,000 | 00:02:01,000 | 所以我們是逐步逐步這樣 |
| 00:02:01,000 | 00:02:02,000 | 那所以就是說 |
| 00:02:02,000 | 00:02:04,000 | 如果能夠直接有API借接 |
| 00:02:04,000 | 00:02:05,000 | 那方便嘛 |
| 00:02:05,000 | 00:02:07,000 | 因為這已經就不會說什麼你要跟不要 |
| 00:02:07,000 | 00:02:10,000 | 他沒有決定的空間 |
| 00:02:10,000 | 00:02:11,000 | 他只要直接回報 |
| 00:02:11,000 | 00:02:13,000 | 那這樣的話當然會比較好 |
| 00:02:13,000 | 00:02:15,000 | 那前面剛剛部長有提到就是說 |
| 00:02:15,000 | 00:02:17,000 | 逐步推行的時候 |
| 00:02:17,000 | 00:02:19,000 | 你可能還是會分門別類 |
| 00:02:19,000 | 00:02:20,000 | 可能會有風險高低 |
| 00:02:20,000 | 00:02:22,000 | 那當然我會比較擔心的事情 |
| 00:02:22,000 | 00:02:23,000 | 就是說 |
| 00:02:23,000 | 00:02:26,000 | 如果我們今天把風險高低這件事情 |
| 00:02:26,000 | 00:02:28,000 | 又把它當作是一個判斷標準 |
| 00:02:28,000 | 00:02:29,000 | 那會不會又 |
| 00:02:29,000 | 00:02:31,000 | 到底哪些是風險高哪些風險低 |
| 00:02:31,000 | 00:02:33,000 | 會不會又大家莫衷一事 |
| 00:02:33,000 | 00:02:35,000 | 因為這種時候就是最容易有 |
| 00:02:35,000 | 00:02:36,000 | 又變成政治口水 |
| 00:02:36,000 | 00:02:38,000 | 那我覺得因為其實食品安全是科學 |
| 00:02:38,000 | 00:02:41,000 | 那關於剛剛講的這一個風險高低 |
| 00:02:41,000 | 00:02:42,000 | 那這個的判斷 |
| 00:02:42,000 | 00:02:43,000 | 有沒有一個一致的標準 |
| 00:02:43,000 | 00:02:44,000 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:02:44,000 | 00:02:48,000 | 我們現在目前其實就已經理出26個類別 |
| 00:02:48,000 | 00:02:51,000 | 他就是屬於非登跟非追不可 |
| 00:02:51,000 | 00:02:54,000 | 就是我們從過去的食安查核的結果 |
| 00:02:54,000 | 00:02:56,000 | 或者是一些重大的食安事件 |
| 00:02:56,000 | 00:02:59,000 | 或者是國際上曾經發生的食安事件 |
| 00:02:59,000 | 00:03:00,000 | 所累積出來 |
| 00:03:00,000 | 00:03:03,000 | 那麼判斷出來的26個類別 |
| 00:03:03,000 | 00:03:05,000 | 那我們在這個26個類別上面 |
| 00:03:05,000 | 00:03:08,000 | 再去挑出哪一個是第一階段要進來 |
| 00:03:08,000 | 00:03:09,000 | 逐步逐步這樣 |
| 00:03:09,000 | 00:03:11,000 | 好 那這個應該就是到最後 |
| 00:03:11,000 | 00:03:12,000 | 也要有社會共識 |
| 00:03:12,000 | 00:03:13,000 | 是是是 |
| 00:03:13,000 | 00:03:14,000 | 這個沒問題 |
| 00:03:14,000 | 00:03:15,000 | 那現在就是說好 |
| 00:03:15,000 | 00:03:16,000 | 這個是第一層就是說 |
| 00:03:16,000 | 00:03:18,000 | 我們把業者隱瞞這件事情 |
| 00:03:18,000 | 00:03:19,000 | 因為我們畢竟就是要預防 |
| 00:03:19,000 | 00:03:20,000 | 畢竟就是要預防 |
| 00:03:20,000 | 00:03:22,000 | 我們不希望說事情發生了 |
| 00:03:22,000 | 00:03:23,000 | 然後到最後再追究 |
| 00:03:23,000 | 00:03:25,000 | 我們因為事情發生最後責任是一定要 |
| 00:03:25,000 | 00:03:27,000 | 但事情發生最後責任畢竟它發生了 |
| 00:03:27,000 | 00:03:29,000 | 那我們是希望它不要發生 |
| 00:03:29,000 | 00:03:30,000 | 所以不要發生這件事情 |
| 00:03:30,000 | 00:03:33,000 | 我們把一部分的剛剛講的結果上傳 |
| 00:03:33,000 | 00:03:36,000 | 這件事情把它移到檢查的這一個單位 |
| 00:03:36,000 | 00:03:37,000 | 這是一個 |
| 00:03:37,000 | 00:03:38,000 | 那再來就是再往上 |
| 00:03:38,000 | 00:03:40,000 | 檢查的單位它知道有問題了 |
| 00:03:40,000 | 00:03:42,000 | 然後它的結果它會自動上傳 |
| 00:03:42,000 | 00:03:44,000 | 業者知道有問題了 |
| 00:03:44,000 | 00:03:47,000 | 那業者他必須要能夠有回報的義務 |
| 00:03:47,000 | 00:03:48,000 | 這是一個 |
| 00:03:48,000 | 00:03:51,000 | 那業者再往上就是我們的地方政府 |
| 00:03:51,000 | 00:03:52,000 | 那現在就是說 |
| 00:03:52,000 | 00:03:54,000 | 針對地方政府他要檢驗 |
| 00:03:54,000 | 00:03:56,000 | 因為他要回報給地方政府 |
| 00:03:56,000 | 00:03:58,000 | 那地方政府這一個 |
| 00:03:58,000 | 00:04:00,000 | 如果我們從預防的角度來看 |
| 00:04:00,000 | 00:04:03,000 | 那就是他有沒有定期去做檢驗 |
| 00:04:03,000 | 00:04:05,000 | 那因為本來的舊法就是 |
| 00:04:05,000 | 00:04:07,000 | 他得去做這件事情 |
| 00:04:07,000 | 00:04:10,000 | 那我看到現在修正的方向是說好 |
| 00:04:10,000 | 00:04:12,000 | 那我們把得改成因對不對 |
| 00:04:12,000 | 00:04:14,000 | 但是把得改成因在法律上很有意義 |
| 00:04:14,000 | 00:04:15,000 | 他就一定要做 |
| 00:04:15,000 | 00:04:17,000 | 但是他如果不做呢 |
| 00:04:17,000 | 00:04:19,000 | 因為如果他不做的話 |
| 00:04:19,000 | 00:04:21,000 | 我們很少會直接給予這個 |
| 00:04:21,000 | 00:04:22,000 | 因為有些中央跟地方分層 |
| 00:04:22,000 | 00:04:24,000 | 你不會說那地方政府不做 |
| 00:04:24,000 | 00:04:25,000 | 所以我們要怎樣 |
| 00:04:25,000 | 00:04:26,000 | 這個很難 |
| 00:04:26,000 | 00:04:27,000 | 所以就變成說 |
| 00:04:27,000 | 00:04:29,000 | 我認同就是說我們把得變成因 |
| 00:04:29,000 | 00:04:31,000 | 這個是法律上一個重要的宣示 |
| 00:04:31,000 | 00:04:34,000 | 但是在實際執行層面上面 |
| 00:04:34,000 | 00:04:35,000 | 如果他就是還是不做 |
| 00:04:35,000 | 00:04:37,000 | 那我們該怎麼辦 |
| 00:04:37,000 | 00:04:40,000 | 當然這個行政機關 |
| 00:04:40,000 | 00:04:43,000 | 自然有立法機關的監督 |
| 00:04:43,000 | 00:04:45,000 | 我們在法裡面很少 |
| 00:04:45,000 | 00:04:48,000 | 我們是明定要去罰這個行政部 |
| 00:04:48,000 | 00:04:51,000 | 這個要罰的方式大概是不可能 |
| 00:04:51,000 | 00:04:55,000 | 沒有辦法直接去跟地方政府說這個要處罰 |
| 00:04:55,000 | 00:04:57,000 | 那可能就回到比如說好監察機關 |
| 00:04:57,000 | 00:04:59,000 | 但我們現在監察機關 |
| 00:04:59,000 | 00:05:01,000 | 現在看起來有點不太能運作 |
| 00:05:01,000 | 00:05:02,000 | 這會是一個問題 |
| 00:05:02,000 | 00:05:05,000 | 那如果說要等到政治的責任 |
| 00:05:05,000 | 00:05:07,000 | 那又要等政治的責任是幾年的問題 |
| 00:05:07,000 | 00:05:10,000 | 所以我覺得這一個在設計上面 |
| 00:05:10,000 | 00:05:12,000 | 就是我們當然可以跟大家講說 |
| 00:05:12,000 | 00:05:13,000 | 我們把得改成因 |
| 00:05:13,000 | 00:05:15,000 | 這件事情是重要的 |
| 00:05:15,000 | 00:05:17,000 | 但我覺得可能到最後也要明白的 |
| 00:05:17,000 | 00:05:20,000 | 知道說這件事情在實行上面 |
| 00:05:20,000 | 00:05:21,000 | 其實是有困境 |
| 00:05:21,000 | 00:05:23,000 | 那我有看到院板有一個 |
| 00:05:23,000 | 00:05:25,000 | 這個我會有點擔心就是說 |
| 00:05:25,000 | 00:05:26,000 | 好那如果今天地方都不做 |
| 00:05:26,000 | 00:05:29,000 | 反正我們中央開始成立一個任務的小組 |
| 00:05:29,000 | 00:05:32,000 | 然後來開始處理這些相關的問題 |
| 00:05:32,000 | 00:05:34,000 | 這個把權責直接說 |
| 00:05:34,000 | 00:05:37,000 | 好啦那如果你不做那我來弄 |
| 00:05:37,000 | 00:05:40,000 | 要確保有這樣的人力跟資源 |
| 00:05:40,000 | 00:05:42,000 | 我是怕說人力跟資源不足 |
| 00:05:42,000 | 00:05:44,000 | 那這個對方不做那我就來做 |
| 00:05:44,000 | 00:05:46,000 | 但是你的人力跟資源不足的狀況之下 |
| 00:05:46,000 | 00:05:48,000 | 你要幫他來做這件事情 |
| 00:05:48,000 | 00:05:51,000 | 這個可能也會有人力跟資源配置上的問題 |
| 00:05:51,000 | 00:05:53,000 | 我覺得這可能要思考一下 |
| 00:05:53,000 | 00:05:54,000 | 當然這個在逐條的時候 |
| 00:05:54,000 | 00:05:56,000 | 我覺得可以慢慢來討論 |
| 00:05:56,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 但我覺得我們是有這樣的一個大方向 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:06:00,000 | 就是說我們也是要讓大家知道 |
| 00:06:00,000 | 00:06:03,000 | 這個食安法上面的宣示確實是重要 |
| 00:06:03,000 | 00:06:05,000 | 但是如果他真的不執行的時候 |
| 00:06:05,000 | 00:06:07,000 | 他就是沒有要去檢驗 |
| 00:06:07,000 | 00:06:09,000 | 那我們到底應該要怎麼辦 |
| 00:06:09,000 | 00:06:11,000 | 這個其實應該清楚的讓社會大眾知道 |
| 00:06:11,000 | 00:06:13,000 | 或者看一下有什麼機制 |
| 00:06:13,000 | 00:06:15,000 | 我認為比較好的機制反而是一開始講的那一個 |
| 00:06:15,000 | 00:06:17,000 | 就是讓檢驗的單位變成 |
| 00:06:17,000 | 00:06:19,000 | 變成是一個要回報 |
| 00:06:19,000 | 00:06:21,000 | 他又沒有決定空間他就直接上傳 |
| 00:06:21,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 那這樣的話至少我們能夠資訊的掌握就會更明確 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:26,000 | 我覺得這個反而是一個好的方向 |
| 00:06:26,000 | 00:06:28,000 | 那其他的話我覺得不是用慎重考慮啦 |
| 00:06:28,000 | 00:06:30,000 | 而是在修法討論的過程當中 |
| 00:06:30,000 | 00:06:32,000 | 民眾必須要知道這一點 |
| 00:06:32,000 | 00:06:33,000 | 好 |
| 00:06:33,000 | 00:06:35,000 | 很謝謝委員很深入 |
| 00:06:35,000 | 00:06:37,000 | 非常深入又專業給我們的建議 |
| 00:06:37,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 很謝謝你的提醒 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:39,000 | 那謝謝 |
| 00:06:39,000 | 00:06:41,000 | 那我就先問到這邊 |
| 00:06:41,000 | 00:06:43,000 | 謝謝主席謝謝部長 |
| 00:06:43,000 | 00:06:45,000 | 好謝謝什麼樣的委員 |