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范雲 @ 第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:09,000 | 主席 |
| 00:00:09,000 | 00:00:13,000 | 那個剛剛淑芬委員講的議題非常的重要 |
| 00:00:13,000 | 00:00:15,000 | 那但是就是說 |
| 00:00:15,000 | 00:00:17,000 | 我是不是也可以那個比照講久一點 |
| 00:00:17,000 | 00:00:19,000 | 哈哈哈 |
| 00:00:19,000 | 00:00:21,000 | 要不然會造成就是 |
| 00:00:21,000 | 00:00:23,000 | 我想這個三立委員是我們本委員會的委員 |
| 00:00:23,000 | 00:00:25,000 | 所以我可以 |
| 00:00:25,000 | 00:00:27,000 | 所以本委員對委員應該通常時間更長吧 |
| 00:00:27,000 | 00:00:28,000 | 對 是的 沒有錯 |
| 00:00:28,000 | 00:00:30,000 | 所以就十分鐘之後可以再延長 |
| 00:00:30,000 | 00:00:32,000 | 那我是對淑芬委員有特別的 |
| 00:00:32,000 | 00:00:34,000 | 給她 |
| 00:00:34,000 | 00:00:36,000 | 特別的優惠就是比照 |
| 00:00:36,000 | 00:00:38,000 | 像是我們本委員會的發言時間 |
| 00:00:38,000 | 00:00:40,000 | 但還是她今天也發言時間 |
| 00:00:40,000 | 00:00:42,000 | 也真的超出太久了 |
| 00:00:42,000 | 00:00:44,000 | 了解了解 好麻煩她 |
| 00:00:44,000 | 00:00:46,000 | 我想我有請高秘書長 |
| 00:00:48,000 | 00:00:50,000 | 好 有請高秘書長 |
| 00:00:54,000 | 00:00:56,000 | 好 高秘書長好 |
| 00:00:56,000 | 00:00:58,000 | 我想您對那個CRPT國內法化 |
| 00:00:58,000 | 00:01:00,000 | 已經滿十二年這一塊 |
| 00:01:00,000 | 00:01:02,000 | 您了不了解呢 |
| 00:01:02,000 | 00:01:04,000 | 關於這部分 |
| 00:01:04,000 | 00:01:06,000 | 因為我真的沒有從事哨家 |
| 00:01:06,000 | 00:01:08,000 | 我請我們哨家廳來跟你做詳細的說明 |
| 00:01:08,000 | 00:01:10,000 | 這個應該不是只是哨家廳吧 |
| 00:01:10,000 | 00:01:12,000 | 對 還包括我們行政廳 |
| 00:01:12,000 | 00:01:14,000 | 都有 |
| 00:01:14,000 | 00:01:16,000 | 所以那個秘書長不是很了解 |
| 00:01:16,000 | 00:01:18,000 | 好 那沒關係 |
| 00:01:18,000 | 00:01:20,000 | 那我就稍微解釋一下 |
| 00:01:20,000 | 00:01:22,000 | 好不好 |
| 00:01:22,000 | 00:01:24,000 | 就是CRPT國內法化 |
| 00:01:24,000 | 00:01:26,000 | 好不好 |
| 00:01:26,000 | 00:01:28,000 | 就是CRPT裡面 |
| 00:01:28,000 | 00:01:30,000 | CRPT當然是 |
| 00:01:30,000 | 00:01:32,000 | 在我們馬總統任內 |
| 00:01:32,000 | 00:01:34,000 | 就簽署的 |
| 00:01:34,000 | 00:01:36,000 | 當時國會 |
| 00:01:36,000 | 00:01:38,000 | 民進黨是少數 |
| 00:01:38,000 | 00:01:40,000 | 當然也全力支持 |
| 00:01:40,000 | 00:01:42,000 | 當時的國會是不分黨派 |
| 00:01:42,000 | 00:01:44,000 | 就把CRPT國內法化 |
| 00:01:44,000 | 00:01:46,000 | 裡面有提到合理調整 |
| 00:01:46,000 | 00:01:48,000 | 合理調整是什麼意思 |
| 00:01:48,000 | 00:01:50,000 | 它是身心障礙者 |
| 00:01:50,000 | 00:01:52,000 | 非常重要的人權的一部分 |
| 00:01:52,000 | 00:01:54,000 | 它指的是 |
| 00:01:54,000 | 00:01:56,000 | 根據具體需要 |
| 00:01:56,000 | 00:01:58,000 | 於不造成過度或不當負擔之情況下 |
| 00:01:58,000 | 00:02:00,000 | 進行必要及適當之修改與調整 |
| 00:02:00,000 | 00:02:02,000 | 進行必要及適當之修改與調整 |
| 00:02:02,000 | 00:02:04,000 | 以確保身心障礙者 |
| 00:02:04,000 | 00:02:06,000 | 在與其他人平等基礎上 |
| 00:02:06,000 | 00:02:08,000 | 享有或行使 |
| 00:02:08,000 | 00:02:10,000 | 所有人權及基本自由 |
| 00:02:10,000 | 00:02:12,000 | 也就是說 |
| 00:02:12,000 | 00:02:14,000 | 它是搭配我們一般的 |
| 00:02:14,000 | 00:02:16,000 | 無障礙 |
| 00:02:16,000 | 00:02:18,000 | 因為無障礙是通案 |
| 00:02:18,000 | 00:02:20,000 | 可是有些地方可能還是會有障礙 |
| 00:02:20,000 | 00:02:22,000 | 那你針對個案可以及時的處理 |
| 00:02:22,000 | 00:02:24,000 | 所以它是一個非常重要的權利 |
| 00:02:24,000 | 00:02:26,000 | 譬如好像是 |
| 00:02:26,000 | 00:02:28,000 | 職場上 |
| 00:02:28,000 | 00:02:30,000 | 那你如果有合理調整的話 |
| 00:02:30,000 | 00:02:32,000 | 其實身心障礙者 |
| 00:02:32,000 | 00:02:34,000 | 他可以適應的工作範圍 |
| 00:02:34,000 | 00:02:36,000 | 是非常廣的 |
| 00:02:36,000 | 00:02:38,000 | 那如果高秘書長了解 |
| 00:02:38,000 | 00:02:40,000 | 這一點的話 |
| 00:02:40,000 | 00:02:42,000 | 我就要提到 |
| 00:02:42,000 | 00:02:44,000 | 為什麼我想要問的是您 |
| 00:02:44,000 | 00:02:46,000 | 而不是只有少嘉廳 |
| 00:02:46,000 | 00:02:48,000 | 主要就是現在 |
| 00:02:48,000 | 00:02:50,000 | 職場上的合理調整的爭議 |
| 00:02:50,000 | 00:02:52,000 | 已經成為司法的 |
| 00:02:52,000 | 00:02:54,000 | 新興議題了 |
| 00:02:54,000 | 00:02:56,000 | 那我辦公室找了兩個新聞 |
| 00:02:56,000 | 00:02:58,000 | 一個是今年那個是去年的 |
| 00:02:58,000 | 00:03:00,000 | 一個是台鐵 |
| 00:03:00,000 | 00:03:02,000 | 台鐵為合理調整之前身障員工 |
| 00:03:02,000 | 00:03:04,000 | 後來這個員工就去告了 |
| 00:03:04,000 | 00:03:06,000 | 那法院判 |
| 00:03:06,000 | 00:03:08,000 | 僱傭關係存在 |
| 00:03:08,000 | 00:03:10,000 | 那應該如果沒有理解錯誤的話 |
| 00:03:10,000 | 00:03:12,000 | 就是台鐵輸了 |
| 00:03:12,000 | 00:03:14,000 | 那這邊呢 |
| 00:03:14,000 | 00:03:16,000 | 是竹科經理罹患箭動症 |
| 00:03:16,000 | 00:03:18,000 | 招解僱提告 |
| 00:03:18,000 | 00:03:20,000 | 法官說無法 |
| 00:03:20,000 | 00:03:22,000 | 說法官就是判這個 |
| 00:03:22,000 | 00:03:24,000 | 身障者 |
| 00:03:24,000 | 00:03:26,000 | 他是敗訴 |
| 00:03:26,000 | 00:03:28,000 | 那我們知道其實以我們 |
| 00:03:28,000 | 00:03:30,000 | 大家都認識的 |
| 00:03:30,000 | 00:03:32,000 | 俊翰律師 |
| 00:03:32,000 | 00:03:34,000 | 他之前是民進黨的不分區候選人 |
| 00:03:34,000 | 00:03:36,000 | 那他其實是可以 |
| 00:03:36,000 | 00:03:38,000 | 執行工作的 |
| 00:03:38,000 | 00:03:40,000 | 只要他的器材跟各方面的 |
| 00:03:40,000 | 00:03:42,000 | 協助是足夠的話 |
| 00:03:42,000 | 00:03:44,000 | 那所以不代表就是 |
| 00:03:44,000 | 00:03:46,000 | 所有的這些都無法提供勞務 |
| 00:03:46,000 | 00:03:48,000 | 可是我們看到 |
| 00:03:48,000 | 00:03:50,000 | 在司法上 |
| 00:03:50,000 | 00:03:52,000 | 其實告到司法的時候 |
| 00:03:52,000 | 00:03:54,000 | 結果經常是不一樣的 |
| 00:03:54,000 | 00:03:56,000 | 那當然您可能會說 |
| 00:03:56,000 | 00:03:58,000 | 這兩個個案情況不一樣 |
| 00:03:58,000 | 00:04:00,000 | 我們現在不能這樣比較 |
| 00:04:00,000 | 00:04:02,000 | 那等於是我要提的事情是 |
| 00:04:02,000 | 00:04:04,000 | 這個真的跟司法有很大的關係 |
| 00:04:04,000 | 00:04:06,000 | 因為目前我們看一下 |
| 00:04:06,000 | 00:04:08,000 | 如果雇主沒有提供 |
| 00:04:08,000 | 00:04:10,000 | 障礙勞工合理調整的話 |
| 00:04:10,000 | 00:04:12,000 | 法律的就計方式 |
| 00:04:12,000 | 00:04:14,000 | 就是這樣 |
| 00:04:14,000 | 00:04:16,000 | 依照就業歧視 |
| 00:04:16,000 | 00:04:18,000 | 就業服務法第五條 |
| 00:04:18,000 | 00:04:20,000 | 那不能夠對身心障礙等身分予以歧視 |
| 00:04:20,000 | 00:04:22,000 | 所以他可以第一關 |
| 00:04:22,000 | 00:04:24,000 | 到地方主管機關提出 |
| 00:04:24,000 | 00:04:26,000 | 就業歧視申訴 |
| 00:04:26,000 | 00:04:28,000 | 比如說到勞工局等等 |
| 00:04:28,000 | 00:04:30,000 | 然後地方勞工行政 |
| 00:04:30,000 | 00:04:32,000 | 主管機關 |
| 00:04:32,000 | 00:04:34,000 | 有個就業歧視評議委員會 |
| 00:04:34,000 | 00:04:36,000 | 他審議後會做成決議 |
| 00:04:36,000 | 00:04:38,000 | 有些在這一關就解決了 |
| 00:04:38,000 | 00:04:40,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:04:40,000 | 00:04:42,000 | 那如果他沒有辦法解決的話 |
| 00:04:42,000 | 00:04:44,000 | 事實上不符決議的時候 |
| 00:04:44,000 | 00:04:46,000 | 不管是老闆 |
| 00:04:46,000 | 00:04:48,000 | 或者是員工 |
| 00:04:48,000 | 00:04:50,000 | 都可以再提出訴願 |
| 00:04:50,000 | 00:04:52,000 | 那再來我想您就非常熟悉了 |
| 00:04:52,000 | 00:04:54,000 | 行政訴訟這一塊就出現了 |
| 00:04:54,000 | 00:04:56,000 | 所以司法 |
| 00:04:56,000 | 00:04:58,000 | 等於是障礙者工作權的 |
| 00:04:58,000 | 00:05:00,000 | 最後一道防線 |
| 00:05:00,000 | 00:05:02,000 | 秘書長對這個流程應該沒有任何疑義吧 |
| 00:05:02,000 | 00:05:04,000 | 沒有 |
| 00:05:04,000 | 00:05:06,000 | 這個除了行政訴訟也會有民事訴訟 |
| 00:05:06,000 | 00:05:08,000 | 對 所以它會是重要的 |
| 00:05:08,000 | 00:05:10,000 | 司法議題這個您認同吧 |
| 00:05:10,000 | 00:05:12,000 | 非常認同 |
| 00:05:12,000 | 00:05:14,000 | 那所以我現在就想問的是 |
| 00:05:14,000 | 00:05:16,000 | 請問目前 |
| 00:05:16,000 | 00:05:18,000 | 僱主為障礙勞工提供 |
| 00:05:18,000 | 00:05:20,000 | 合理調整的這個義務的爭議 |
| 00:05:20,000 | 00:05:22,000 | 您認為司法裁判的 |
| 00:05:22,000 | 00:05:24,000 | 實務上是不是已經 |
| 00:05:24,000 | 00:05:26,000 | 準備好了 |
| 00:05:26,000 | 00:05:28,000 | 是不是已經穩定跟成熟了嗎 |
| 00:05:28,000 | 00:05:30,000 | 跟委員報告 雖然CRPD我不是很熟 |
| 00:05:30,000 | 00:05:32,000 | 可是我在辦訴訟案件裡面 |
| 00:05:32,000 | 00:05:34,000 | 也很多這種案件 |
| 00:05:34,000 | 00:05:36,000 | 其實法官最困難的是 |
| 00:05:36,000 | 00:05:38,000 | 要認定 |
| 00:05:38,000 | 00:05:40,000 | 提供合理調整的 |
| 00:05:40,000 | 00:05:42,000 | 義務 這個委員指導了 |
| 00:05:42,000 | 00:05:44,000 | 這個 其實這個一直在 |
| 00:05:44,000 | 00:05:46,000 | 發展中 而不是說 |
| 00:05:46,000 | 00:05:48,000 | 這個議題在發展中 而是說 |
| 00:05:48,000 | 00:05:50,000 | 法官的對於 |
| 00:05:50,000 | 00:05:52,000 | 所謂合理調整 |
| 00:05:52,000 | 00:05:54,000 | 義務的範圍 |
| 00:05:54,000 | 00:05:56,000 | 這種認定 |
| 00:05:56,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 真的會影響到這個 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:06:00,000 | 裁判的勝訴 |
| 00:06:00,000 | 00:06:02,000 | 那這個我不敢說 |
| 00:06:02,000 | 00:06:04,000 | 已經成熟穩定 |
| 00:06:04,000 | 00:06:06,000 | 我們是一直在提醒 |
| 00:06:06,000 | 00:06:08,000 | 我們勞動法庭 |
| 00:06:08,000 | 00:06:10,000 | 還有行政訴訟這個區塊 |
| 00:06:10,000 | 00:06:12,000 | 法官一定 |
| 00:06:12,000 | 00:06:14,000 | 要放下我們 |
| 00:06:14,000 | 00:06:16,000 | 這些人跟我們不一樣 |
| 00:06:16,000 | 00:06:18,000 | 這種想法去 |
| 00:06:18,000 | 00:06:20,000 | 增進自己 |
| 00:06:20,000 | 00:06:22,000 | 對於所謂提供 |
| 00:06:22,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 合理調整義務的 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:26,000 | 範圍要放寬 |
| 00:06:26,000 | 00:06:28,000 | 謝謝高 |
| 00:06:28,000 | 00:06:30,000 | 秘書長 您講得很清楚 |
| 00:06:30,000 | 00:06:32,000 | 您認為現在的爭議 |
| 00:06:32,000 | 00:06:34,000 | 是在於合理調整的 |
| 00:06:34,000 | 00:06:36,000 | 內容是什麼 |
| 00:06:36,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 但是大家都已經知道 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:40,000 | 這個是義務了 所以現在的爭議 |
| 00:06:40,000 | 00:06:42,000 | 是在這個合理調整 |
| 00:06:42,000 | 00:06:44,000 | 是義務 可是怎麼樣的 |
| 00:06:44,000 | 00:06:46,000 | 做法可以被當成是 |
| 00:06:46,000 | 00:06:48,000 | 他做了這個義務 |
| 00:06:48,000 | 00:06:50,000 | 是不是 這是您的認定 |
| 00:06:50,000 | 00:06:52,000 | 好 那我要告訴高秘書長 |
| 00:06:52,000 | 00:06:54,000 | 貴司法體系 |
| 00:06:54,000 | 00:06:56,000 | 目前並不是這樣 |
| 00:06:56,000 | 00:06:58,000 | 你看我們這個辦公室 |
| 00:06:58,000 | 00:07:00,000 | 做的研究 2020年 |
| 00:07:00,000 | 00:07:02,000 | 2020年你們的高雄 |
| 00:07:02,000 | 00:07:04,000 | 高等行政法院的判決 |
| 00:07:04,000 | 00:07:06,000 | 他不認為合理調整 |
| 00:07:06,000 | 00:07:08,000 | 是義務 他覺得那個是 |
| 00:07:08,000 | 00:07:10,000 | 優惠性措施 |
| 00:07:10,000 | 00:07:12,000 | 他承認有CRPD |
| 00:07:12,000 | 00:07:14,000 | 但不認為能夠 |
| 00:07:14,000 | 00:07:16,000 | 指導雇主有合理調整 |
| 00:07:16,000 | 00:07:18,000 | 義務 所以他完全不理 |
| 00:07:18,000 | 00:07:20,000 | 這個法 他只用勞動基準法 |
| 00:07:20,000 | 00:07:22,000 | 就業服務法 這個不是專為 |
| 00:07:22,000 | 00:07:24,000 | 就是伸帳者 |
| 00:07:24,000 | 00:07:26,000 | 制定的法 |
| 00:07:26,000 | 00:07:28,000 | 那可是很有趣了 |
| 00:07:28,000 | 00:07:32,000 | 過了一年最高行政法院的判決 |
| 00:07:32,000 | 00:07:34,000 | 又不一樣了 就說這個 |
| 00:07:34,000 | 00:07:36,000 | 不是什麼優惠 這不是額外的 |
| 00:07:36,000 | 00:07:38,000 | 他是實踐 |
| 00:07:38,000 | 00:07:40,000 | 平等的積極義務 |
| 00:07:40,000 | 00:07:42,000 | 而且他強調CRPD |
| 00:07:42,000 | 00:07:44,000 | 已經國內法劃了 |
| 00:07:44,000 | 00:07:46,000 | 各機關都應該要 |
| 00:07:46,000 | 00:07:48,000 | 符合公約的保障 |
| 00:07:48,000 | 00:07:50,000 | 還引用了CRPD第二條 |
| 00:07:50,000 | 00:07:52,000 | 第五條特別援引CRPD |
| 00:07:52,000 | 00:07:54,000 | 第六號一般性意見 |
| 00:07:54,000 | 00:07:56,000 | 所以兩次判決不一樣 |
| 00:07:56,000 | 00:08:00,000 | 請問一下高雄高等行政法院的判決 |
| 00:08:00,000 | 00:08:04,000 | 為什麼可以跟2021年最高行政法院判決不一樣 |
| 00:08:04,000 | 00:08:06,000 | 這不是秘書長講的那個狀況 |
| 00:08:06,000 | 00:08:08,000 | 最高行政法院是2021 |
| 00:08:08,000 | 00:08:10,000 | 所以最高行政法院 |
| 00:08:10,000 | 00:08:12,000 | 他就指示出 |
| 00:08:12,000 | 00:08:14,000 | 要這樣去思考 |
| 00:08:14,000 | 00:08:16,000 | 我的意思是說 |
| 00:08:16,000 | 00:08:18,000 | 那我今天如果是到高雄高等行政法院判決 |
| 00:08:18,000 | 00:08:20,000 | 那我不是就比較倒楣嗎 |
| 00:08:20,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 我還得要繼續 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:24,000 | 剛委員報告 其實我們是 |
| 00:08:24,000 | 00:08:26,000 | 不能在那裡就 |
| 00:08:26,000 | 00:08:28,000 | 就如同您剛所講就認定他是義務了 |
| 00:08:28,000 | 00:08:30,000 | 對對對 所以 |
| 00:08:30,000 | 00:08:32,000 | 最高行政法院他已經指出了 |
| 00:08:32,000 | 00:08:34,000 | 這應該是 |
| 00:08:34,000 | 00:08:36,000 | 我認為他這應該是一個法律見解了 |
| 00:08:36,000 | 00:08:38,000 | 他這個法律見解 |
| 00:08:38,000 | 00:08:40,000 | 在四十審法院都會去重視 |
| 00:08:40,000 | 00:08:42,000 | 那個三審的法律見解 |
| 00:08:42,000 | 00:08:44,000 | 2020所以2021 |
| 00:08:44,000 | 00:08:46,000 | 就有這樣的 |
| 00:08:46,000 | 00:08:48,000 | 已經在改變中了 |
| 00:08:48,000 | 00:08:50,000 | 我們簽署這個CRPD |
| 00:08:50,000 | 00:08:52,000 | 是哪一年您知道嗎 |
| 00:08:54,000 | 00:08:56,000 | 2014 |
| 00:08:56,000 | 00:08:58,000 | 對 2014年就國內法化 |
| 00:08:58,000 | 00:09:00,000 | 我的意思是說 |
| 00:09:00,000 | 00:09:02,000 | 2020年這個已經過了六年了 |
| 00:09:02,000 | 00:09:04,000 | 那這個真的是有個個案 |
| 00:09:04,000 | 00:09:06,000 | 原本是一個事障者 |
| 00:09:06,000 | 00:09:08,000 | 平常以行走的方式 |
| 00:09:08,000 | 00:09:10,000 | 進行開單的工作 |
| 00:09:10,000 | 00:09:12,000 | 後來他小腿受傷 |
| 00:09:12,000 | 00:09:14,000 | 他本來是事障是可以開單 |
| 00:09:14,000 | 00:09:16,000 | 小腿受傷 |
| 00:09:16,000 | 00:09:18,000 | 他希望轉調內勤服務 |
| 00:09:18,000 | 00:09:20,000 | 結果高等行政法院 |
| 00:09:20,000 | 00:09:22,000 | 這個高雄的認定 |
| 00:09:22,000 | 00:09:24,000 | 交通局沒有違反合理調整 |
| 00:09:24,000 | 00:09:26,000 | 義務沒有構成歧視 |
| 00:09:26,000 | 00:09:28,000 | 那他後來就很辛苦 |
| 00:09:28,000 | 00:09:30,000 | 還要上訴到最高行政法院 |
| 00:09:30,000 | 00:09:32,000 | 結果法院就認定 |
| 00:09:32,000 | 00:09:34,000 | 原審沒有仔細檢視 |
| 00:09:34,000 | 00:09:36,000 | 交通局是否已經 |
| 00:09:36,000 | 00:09:38,000 | 進合理調整的義務 |
| 00:09:38,000 | 00:09:40,000 | 才把原判決廢棄發揮 |
| 00:09:40,000 | 00:09:42,000 | 那我要講的事情是 |
| 00:09:42,000 | 00:09:44,000 | 為什麼他要這麼的辛苦 |
| 00:09:44,000 | 00:09:46,000 | 到如果他在高雄這一端 |
| 00:09:46,000 | 00:09:48,000 | 高等行政法院判決 |
| 00:09:48,000 | 00:09:50,000 | 2020年他就放棄了呢 |
| 00:09:50,000 | 00:09:52,000 | 當然我們希望 |
| 00:09:52,000 | 00:09:54,000 | 我個人也希望 |
| 00:09:54,000 | 00:09:56,000 | 高雄高等行政法院為什麼沒有採 |
| 00:09:56,000 | 00:09:58,000 | 最高行政法院的意見 |
| 00:09:58,000 | 00:10:00,000 | 最高行政法院他就指證了 |
| 00:10:00,000 | 00:10:02,000 | 你將來關於 |
| 00:10:02,000 | 00:10:04,000 | 這類案件你的思考方向 |
| 00:10:04,000 | 00:10:06,000 | 你的法律見解方向 |
| 00:10:06,000 | 00:10:08,000 | 我相信已經指出一個非常清楚的道路了 |
| 00:10:08,000 | 00:10:10,000 | 這個 |
| 00:10:10,000 | 00:10:12,000 | 對 所以您剛所講的 |
| 00:10:12,000 | 00:10:14,000 | 那個大家都認知到 |
| 00:10:14,000 | 00:10:16,000 | 這是義務 |
| 00:10:16,000 | 00:10:18,000 | 只是對於合理調整的內容 |
| 00:10:18,000 | 00:10:20,000 | 有不同的見解 |
| 00:10:20,000 | 00:10:22,000 | 這件事情沒有發生 |
| 00:10:22,000 | 00:10:24,000 | 就拿我剛講2020 |
| 00:10:24,000 | 00:10:26,000 | 已經是高雄高等行政法院的判決了 |
| 00:10:26,000 | 00:10:28,000 | 我跟委員報告說 |
| 00:10:28,000 | 00:10:30,000 | 不是說判決 |
| 00:10:30,000 | 00:10:32,000 | 所有判決都 |
| 00:10:32,000 | 00:10:34,000 | 如同我的見解一樣 |
| 00:10:34,000 | 00:10:36,000 | 沒錯 所以我才說 |
| 00:10:36,000 | 00:10:38,000 | 這不是你的見解 |
| 00:10:38,000 | 00:10:40,000 | 這是CRPT |
| 00:10:40,000 | 00:10:42,000 | 是有國內法劃的法律 |
| 00:10:42,000 | 00:10:44,000 | 明文規定 |
| 00:10:44,000 | 00:10:46,000 | 所以跟委員報告 |
| 00:10:46,000 | 00:10:48,000 | 有這個法律的存在 |
| 00:10:48,000 | 00:10:50,000 | 他引用的是其他的法令 |
| 00:10:50,000 | 00:10:52,000 | 我不敢講他無視 |
| 00:10:52,000 | 00:10:54,000 | 因為個案我真的很難解釋 |
| 00:10:54,000 | 00:10:56,000 | 沒有讀過 |
| 00:10:56,000 | 00:10:58,000 | 我不敢講 |
| 00:10:58,000 | 00:11:00,000 | 只是最少 |
| 00:11:00,000 | 00:11:02,000 | 關於CRPD |
| 00:11:02,000 | 00:11:04,000 | 我們是思考院 |
| 00:11:04,000 | 00:11:06,000 | 非常重視 |
| 00:11:06,000 | 00:11:08,000 | 真的非常重視 |
| 00:11:08,000 | 00:11:10,000 | 秘書長 您說非常重視 |
| 00:11:10,000 | 00:11:12,000 | 我有一點點懷疑 |
| 00:11:12,000 | 00:11:14,000 | 為什麼 因為您自己都不熟悉 |
| 00:11:14,000 | 00:11:16,000 | 沒有 跟委員 |
| 00:11:16,000 | 00:11:18,000 | 你剛剛不是說你不熟悉 |
| 00:11:18,000 | 00:11:20,000 | 要那個少嘉廷的 |
| 00:11:20,000 | 00:11:22,000 | 我不能夠很自誇說我熟悉 |
| 00:11:22,000 | 00:11:24,000 | CRPD其實是落實在 |
| 00:11:24,000 | 00:11:26,000 | 我們的判決裡面 |
| 00:11:26,000 | 00:11:28,000 | 尤其我們最近 |
| 00:11:28,000 | 00:11:30,000 | 委員應該看到新聞 |
| 00:11:30,000 | 00:11:32,000 | 我們關於 |
| 00:11:32,000 | 00:11:34,000 | 這些朋友們 |
| 00:11:34,000 | 00:11:36,000 | 能夠禁用法院的 |
| 00:11:36,000 | 00:11:38,000 | 這個司法禁用 |
| 00:11:38,000 | 00:11:40,000 | 我們一直在強調 |
| 00:11:40,000 | 00:11:42,000 | 其實我覺得這個重點是 |
| 00:11:42,000 | 00:11:44,000 | 我要放在我的sense裡面 |
| 00:11:44,000 | 00:11:46,000 | 我要放在一切 |
| 00:11:46,000 | 00:11:48,000 | 我的作為裡面 |
| 00:11:48,000 | 00:11:50,000 | 我講的是這個部分 |
| 00:11:50,000 | 00:11:52,000 | 那我今天想問的是 |
| 00:11:52,000 | 00:11:54,000 | 那您作為秘書長 |
| 00:11:54,000 | 00:11:56,000 | 您覺得我們如何避免 |
| 00:11:56,000 | 00:11:58,000 | 再發聲向高雄高等 |
| 00:11:58,000 | 00:12:00,000 | 行政法院這樣判決 |
| 00:12:00,000 | 00:12:02,000 | 根本無視於CRPD這個國內法的存在 |
| 00:12:02,000 | 00:12:04,000 | 把合理調整 |
| 00:12:04,000 | 00:12:06,000 | 不當成是義務 |
| 00:12:06,000 | 00:12:08,000 | 他覺得這只是個優惠的措施 |
| 00:12:08,000 | 00:12:10,000 | 如何可以做到 |
| 00:12:10,000 | 00:12:12,000 | 不要再發聲 |
| 00:12:12,000 | 00:12:14,000 | 障礙者很辛苦了 |
| 00:12:14,000 | 00:12:16,000 | 還要再往上再到最高行政法院 |
| 00:12:16,000 | 00:12:18,000 | 才能夠 |
| 00:12:18,000 | 00:12:20,000 | 這個除了法官一定要接受教育訓練 |
| 00:12:20,000 | 00:12:22,000 | 法官應該接受教育訓練 |
| 00:12:22,000 | 00:12:24,000 | 那目前的教育訓練中 |
| 00:12:24,000 | 00:12:26,000 | 有這個CRPD國內法嗎 |
| 00:12:26,000 | 00:12:28,000 | 有 |
| 00:12:28,000 | 00:12:30,000 | 請問是幾小時 |
| 00:12:30,000 | 00:12:32,000 | 是一輩子講 |
| 00:12:32,000 | 00:12:34,000 | 還是說一年有幾小時 |
| 00:12:34,000 | 00:12:36,000 | 最少法官 |
| 00:12:36,000 | 00:12:38,000 | 我們是規定上課是 |
| 00:12:38,000 | 00:12:40,000 | 40小時 |
| 00:12:40,000 | 00:12:42,000 | 40小時中是多久上一次課 |
| 00:12:42,000 | 00:12:44,000 | 法官 |
| 00:12:44,000 | 00:12:46,000 | 整年你全部要上一次 |
| 00:12:46,000 | 00:12:48,000 | 每個法官整年都要上40小時課 |
| 00:12:48,000 | 00:12:50,000 | 那裡面CRPD的國內法 |
| 00:12:50,000 | 00:12:52,000 | 幾小時 |
| 00:12:52,000 | 00:12:54,000 | 我再把資料送給委員 |
| 00:12:54,000 | 00:12:56,000 | 現在沒有人知道說 |
| 00:12:56,000 | 00:12:58,000 | CRPD國內法幾小時嗎 |
| 00:12:58,000 | 00:13:00,000 | CRPD負責的是我們行政廳 |
| 00:13:00,000 | 00:13:02,000 | 他們今天剛好沒有人 |
| 00:13:02,000 | 00:13:04,000 | 剛好沒有人 |
| 00:13:04,000 | 00:13:06,000 | 這個我可以判 |
| 00:13:06,000 | 00:13:08,000 | 所以你確定目前有上CRPD國內法 |
| 00:13:08,000 | 00:13:10,000 | 只是幾小時不了解 |
| 00:13:10,000 | 00:13:12,000 | 對真的一下問我真的不了解 |
| 00:13:12,000 | 00:13:14,000 | 好沒關係 |
| 00:13:14,000 | 00:13:16,000 | 那我想因為我不想要 |
| 00:13:16,000 | 00:13:18,000 | 那個超時太多 |
| 00:13:18,000 | 00:13:20,000 | 我想要講的事情是 |
| 00:13:20,000 | 00:13:22,000 | 近年職場合理調整的爭議 |
| 00:13:22,000 | 00:13:24,000 | 真的有越來越多的判例 |
| 00:13:24,000 | 00:13:26,000 | 可是我們看不出來說 |
| 00:13:26,000 | 00:13:28,000 | 為什麼他有時候認定是歧視 |
| 00:13:28,000 | 00:13:30,000 | 有時候認為不是 |
| 00:13:30,000 | 00:13:32,000 | 那第一個 |
| 00:13:32,000 | 00:13:34,000 | 到底是不是個義務 |
| 00:13:34,000 | 00:13:36,000 | 義務這一層已經不是一致了 |
| 00:13:36,000 | 00:13:38,000 | 依照CRPD的法 |
| 00:13:38,000 | 00:13:40,000 | 他應該是義務 |
| 00:13:40,000 | 00:13:42,000 | 那再來這個義務之後 |
| 00:13:42,000 | 00:13:44,000 | 就像您剛講的認定標準 |
| 00:13:44,000 | 00:13:46,000 | 也非常的不一 |
| 00:13:46,000 | 00:13:48,000 | 那既然秘書長願意去努力 |
| 00:13:48,000 | 00:13:50,000 | 我想講的事情是 |
| 00:13:50,000 | 00:13:52,000 | 你們是不是可以先就 |
| 00:13:52,000 | 00:13:54,000 | 近年累積的 |
| 00:13:54,000 | 00:13:56,000 | 障礙者職場合理調整的判例 |
| 00:13:56,000 | 00:13:58,000 | 進行系統性的 |
| 00:13:58,000 | 00:14:00,000 | 彙整跟延期 |
| 00:14:00,000 | 00:14:02,000 | 然後呢 |
| 00:14:02,000 | 00:14:04,000 | 依照CRPD國內法的精神 |
| 00:14:04,000 | 00:14:06,000 | 把這些案例 |
| 00:14:06,000 | 00:14:08,000 | 做成教材 |
| 00:14:08,000 | 00:14:10,000 | 再給法官做 |
| 00:14:10,000 | 00:14:12,000 | 延期好嗎 |
| 00:14:12,000 | 00:14:14,000 | 如果你講法律等一下萬一上課的時候 |
| 00:14:14,000 | 00:14:16,000 | 大家太累了打瞌睡了怎麼辦 |
| 00:14:16,000 | 00:14:18,000 | 那至少把 |
| 00:14:18,000 | 00:14:20,000 | 你們的案例做延期 |
| 00:14:20,000 | 00:14:22,000 | 哪些其實那些判決是錯的 |
| 00:14:22,000 | 00:14:24,000 | 違反CRPD的精神 |
| 00:14:24,000 | 00:14:26,000 | 哪些是 |
| 00:14:26,000 | 00:14:28,000 | 然後讓大家了解合理調整 |
| 00:14:28,000 | 00:14:30,000 | 依照我們的CRPD |
| 00:14:30,000 | 00:14:32,000 | 不是優惠性的措施 |
| 00:14:32,000 | 00:14:34,000 | 它已經是義務了 |
| 00:14:34,000 | 00:14:36,000 | 那這樣子你們這個做法 |
| 00:14:36,000 | 00:14:38,000 | 多久內可以給我一個報告 |
| 00:14:38,000 | 00:14:40,000 | 做完也 |
| 00:14:40,000 | 00:14:42,000 | 你不一定要做完就是預計要怎麼做 |
| 00:14:42,000 | 00:14:44,000 | 多久內可以做完 |
| 00:14:44,000 | 00:14:46,000 | 我們做系統性的彙整可不可以給我們一個月 |
| 00:14:46,000 | 00:14:48,000 | 好一個月 |
| 00:14:48,000 | 00:14:50,000 | 至少把你的計畫要怎麼做讓我知道 |
| 00:14:50,000 | 00:14:52,000 | 好嗎 |
| 00:14:52,000 | 00:14:54,000 | 謝謝秘書長 |
| 00:14:54,000 | 00:14:56,000 | 繼續監督 |