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邱慧洳 @ 第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:08,000 | 好 有請主席還有各位委員 各位官員大家好 |
| 00:00:08,000 | 00:00:12,000 | 有請石崇良部長 有請江思剛署長 |
| 00:00:12,000 | 00:00:14,000 | 有請江署長 石部長 |
| 00:00:14,000 | 00:00:15,000 | 好 委員好 |
| 00:00:15,000 | 00:00:21,000 | 是 我必須說呢 這個剛陳金輝委員跟王玉明委員在台下質詢的時候 |
| 00:00:21,000 | 00:00:26,000 | 我有非常多次我都忍不住了 我都好想插嘴 |
| 00:00:26,000 | 00:00:30,000 | 但是我忍到現在 終於換我上台了 |
| 00:00:30,000 | 00:00:35,000 | 好 我今天的題目是台長不通報 還誇口他是乖寶寶 |
| 00:00:35,000 | 00:00:38,000 | 真的是讓人家這個聽不下去 |
| 00:00:38,000 | 00:00:41,000 | 那前情提要 我先問上次的問題 |
| 00:00:41,000 | 00:00:47,000 | 就是上次陳金輝委員問說可不可以公布20%神秘會議專家的名單 |
| 00:00:47,000 | 00:00:51,000 | 然後你有提到說你要去詢問專家 願不願意被公布 |
| 00:00:51,000 | 00:00:53,000 | 請問一下你詢問的結果是怎樣 |
| 00:00:53,000 | 00:00:56,000 | 我們今天下午會把它公布 |
| 00:00:56,000 | 00:00:58,000 | 你說公布七位委員的名單 |
| 00:00:58,000 | 00:01:00,000 | 七位委員的名單 好 那我們就 |
| 00:01:00,000 | 00:01:03,000 | 但是請大家不要獵巫 他們都是學友專家 |
| 00:01:03,000 | 00:01:08,000 | 我們就是論事 怎麼會獵巫 我們又不是輕鳥側翼 怎麼會獵巫呢 |
| 00:01:08,000 | 00:01:13,000 | 好 所以神秘的專家你們到時候會公布 那我們就拭目以待 |
| 00:01:13,000 | 00:01:15,000 | 好 那現在重點來了 講內容 |
| 00:01:15,000 | 00:01:20,000 | 內容就是說 因為剛陳金輝委員也有修會議紀錄 我有觀察到 |
| 00:01:20,000 | 00:01:23,000 | 會議紀錄最後的結論就是建議 |
| 00:01:23,000 | 00:01:26,000 | 建議將專家所提的建議納入考量 |
| 00:01:26,000 | 00:01:29,000 | 建議業者預防性下架以20%為標準 |
| 00:01:29,000 | 00:01:31,000 | 可是建議怎麼變強制 |
| 00:01:31,000 | 00:01:34,000 | 7月4號公布的一個新聞就是強制 |
| 00:01:34,000 | 00:01:38,000 | 就是20%以上的下架 20%以下還可以再加上 |
| 00:01:38,000 | 00:01:42,000 | 這不就是當時的法律秩序 請問一下誰拍板 |
| 00:01:42,000 | 00:01:46,000 | 剛陳金輝委員已經有問了 好像是江之港委那個署長拍板 |
| 00:01:46,000 | 00:01:47,000 | 因為你是會議主席 |
| 00:01:47,000 | 00:01:50,000 | 所以這個20%人家學者只是建議 |
| 00:01:50,000 | 00:01:53,000 | 那最後又有一個人拍板 變成7月4號的法律秩序 |
| 00:01:53,000 | 00:01:58,000 | 剛好像陳金輝委員問到是江之港署長拍板 我只是在確認 |
| 00:01:58,000 | 00:02:01,000 | 這個問題太重要了 我只是在確認 |
| 00:02:01,000 | 00:02:03,000 | 所以江署長是你拍板嗎 |
| 00:02:03,000 | 00:02:07,000 | 所以不是時部長拍板 也不是行政院長拍板嗎 |
| 00:02:07,000 | 00:02:11,000 | 再跟委員說明 這一次的整個的這個預防性下架 |
| 00:02:11,000 | 00:02:13,000 | 是逐步的在擴大 |
| 00:02:13,000 | 00:02:15,000 | 它是逐步的擴大 |
| 00:02:15,000 | 00:02:19,000 | 一開始是問題由民就已經下架 |
| 00:02:19,000 | 00:02:24,000 | 7月8號24點才把第二談到三點 |
| 00:02:24,000 | 00:02:27,000 | 不要轉移焦點 不要問A打B |
| 00:02:27,000 | 00:02:29,000 | 因為時間很有限 我後面題目很多 |
| 00:02:29,000 | 00:02:33,000 | 那請問一下是誰拍板 江之港署長你要不要為自己捍衛一下 |
| 00:02:33,000 | 00:02:37,000 | 因為剛剛聽起來就是你嘛 你是會議主席 最後是你拍板嗎 |
| 00:02:37,000 | 00:02:39,000 | 這個最後都是 |
| 00:02:39,000 | 00:02:41,000 | 沒關係你不要護航 我在問江之港 |
| 00:02:41,000 | 00:02:43,000 | 我們為福部來處理的 |
| 00:02:43,000 | 00:02:45,000 | 那所以就是時同樣拍板嗎 |
| 00:02:45,000 | 00:02:47,000 | 就是誰 我只是要一個人民而已嘛 |
| 00:02:47,000 | 00:02:50,000 | 那你的意思就是說都是你們為福部 |
| 00:02:50,000 | 00:02:52,000 | 那就是你加江之港署長兩個人嗎 |
| 00:02:52,000 | 00:02:54,000 | 意思就是這樣嗎 |
| 00:02:54,000 | 00:03:00,000 | 這最後要怎麼樣的擴大 這個預防性下架的話 |
| 00:03:00,000 | 00:03:06,000 | 都是參考了我們專家會議的建議 |
| 00:03:06,000 | 00:03:08,000 | 20%拿掉 署長 |
| 00:03:08,000 | 00:03:10,000 | 根據我們調查的結果 |
| 00:03:10,000 | 00:03:14,000 | 都還認為20%很正確 而會戛然而止 |
| 00:03:14,000 | 00:03:17,000 | 只是因為不希望地方他在執行上有困難 |
| 00:03:17,000 | 00:03:20,000 | 如果你真的覺得這20%這麼的美好 |
| 00:03:20,000 | 00:03:22,000 | 為什麼到現在問一個人民問不出來 |
| 00:03:22,000 | 00:03:25,000 | 那這樣子不是讓我們很自益嗎 |
| 00:03:25,000 | 00:03:27,000 | 我們已經同意了啊 |
| 00:03:27,000 | 00:03:31,000 | 就誰拍板嘛 就你跟江之港署長兩個人拍板嗎 |
| 00:03:31,000 | 00:03:34,000 | 為什麼問一個 你如果20%沒有申請 |
| 00:03:34,000 | 00:03:36,000 | 為什麼要迴避要反躲 20%是誰拍板 |
| 00:03:36,000 | 00:03:37,000 | 沒有問題啊 沒有問題啊 |
| 00:03:37,000 | 00:03:39,000 | 沒有問題你就講啊 等於是誰 是你嘛 |
| 00:03:39,000 | 00:03:42,000 | 時同量拍板20%嘛 就是這樣子 |
| 00:03:42,000 | 00:03:45,000 | 好 那奇怪這個答案其實早就可以承認了 |
| 00:03:45,000 | 00:03:47,000 | 為什麼到今天8月5號才承認 |
| 00:03:47,000 | 00:03:49,000 | 好 來台湯蓋牌呢 |
| 00:03:49,000 | 00:03:51,000 | 那如果我想台湯的事情我們都非常了解 |
| 00:03:51,000 | 00:03:54,000 | 如果不是台中的地方法院吹哨的話 |
| 00:03:54,000 | 00:03:56,000 | 我想我們全民現在還蒙在鼓裡 |
| 00:03:56,000 | 00:03:59,000 | 那剛我也講了 南橋沒有通報被開罰 |
| 00:03:59,000 | 00:04:02,000 | 台湯沒有通報就被開脫 |
| 00:04:02,000 | 00:04:04,000 | 很明顯的就是雙標嘛 |
| 00:04:04,000 | 00:04:08,000 | 那現在署長你的意思就是大家去追究台湯你不了解這個邏輯 |
| 00:04:08,000 | 00:04:10,000 | 那我們才不了解你的邏輯 |
| 00:04:10,000 | 00:04:14,000 | 因為邏輯很簡單啊 邏輯就是食安法第七條第五項啊 |
| 00:04:14,000 | 00:04:17,000 | 如果發現產品有危害安全衛生之虞 |
| 00:04:17,000 | 00:04:20,000 | 那就應該要通報當地的主管縣市啊 |
| 00:04:20,000 | 00:04:22,000 | 所以邏輯很簡單啊 |
| 00:04:22,000 | 00:04:24,000 | 第七條第五項法有明文規定啊 |
| 00:04:24,000 | 00:04:27,000 | 產品有危害衛生安全之虞就要通報啊 |
| 00:04:27,000 | 00:04:29,000 | 請問哪裡不了解這個邏輯 |
| 00:04:29,000 | 00:04:31,000 | 我的邏輯很清楚 |
| 00:04:31,000 | 00:04:36,000 | 我們訂的這個扁平坪的標準是食用油脂 |
| 00:04:36,000 | 00:04:38,000 | 這個是脫膠原油 |
| 00:04:38,000 | 00:04:41,000 | 我們沒有訂脫膠原油的標準 |
| 00:04:41,000 | 00:04:44,000 | 好 那時部長我要跟你講一件事 |
| 00:04:44,000 | 00:04:46,000 | 不是法律專家就不要亂解釋法律 |
| 00:04:46,000 | 00:04:49,000 | 不是法律專家不懂法律就請長佐 |
| 00:04:49,000 | 00:04:52,000 | 什麼叫做脫膠原油不是食品 |
| 00:04:52,000 | 00:04:55,000 | 食安法哪一條告訴我們脫膠原油 |
| 00:04:55,000 | 00:04:58,000 | 拌成品不是食品 |
| 00:04:58,000 | 00:05:02,000 | 食安法哪一條告訴我們脫膠原油這個拌成品 |
| 00:05:02,000 | 00:05:03,000 | 不是食品 |
| 00:05:03,000 | 00:05:06,000 | 脫膠原油沒有訂標準 |
| 00:05:06,000 | 00:05:08,000 | BAP的標準 |
| 00:05:08,000 | 00:05:12,000 | 不是啊 人家現在就是說產品有危害之虞 |
| 00:05:12,000 | 00:05:15,000 | 不是食用油脂所以它就沒有標準啊 |
| 00:05:15,000 | 00:05:17,000 | 沒有標準 |
| 00:05:17,000 | 00:05:19,000 | 如果要訂也可以 |
| 00:05:19,000 | 00:05:21,000 | 我們大家來討論要訂多少 |
| 00:05:21,000 | 00:05:24,000 | 主長我問你一件事 |
| 00:05:24,000 | 00:05:26,000 | 你是不是人 |
| 00:05:26,000 | 00:05:28,000 | 你是人嗎 |
| 00:05:28,000 | 00:05:30,000 | 那生你的阿公的阿公 |
| 00:05:30,000 | 00:05:32,000 | 你來自於阿公的阿公 |
| 00:05:32,000 | 00:05:34,000 | 今天才有你存在站在這裡 |
| 00:05:34,000 | 00:05:35,000 | 你是人嗎 |
| 00:05:35,000 | 00:05:37,000 | 那你阿公的阿公是不是人 |
| 00:05:37,000 | 00:05:41,000 | 你下游這個人的產品是從上游來的嗎 |
| 00:05:41,000 | 00:05:44,000 | 你的阿公是不是人你回答不出來 |
| 00:05:44,000 | 00:05:47,000 | 你的阿公是不是人 |
| 00:05:47,000 | 00:05:49,000 | 我是人 |
| 00:05:49,000 | 00:05:51,000 | 對你阿公是不是人 |
| 00:05:51,000 | 00:05:53,000 | 我的細胞不能說細胞就是人 |
| 00:05:53,000 | 00:05:55,000 | 不是啦我在問你阿公是不是人 |
| 00:05:55,000 | 00:05:57,000 | 你就是從阿公來的嗎 |
| 00:05:57,000 | 00:05:59,000 | 人是由細胞 |
| 00:05:59,000 | 00:06:01,000 | 然後組成器官 |
| 00:06:01,000 | 00:06:05,000 | 你阿公是不是人你不可以回答回避到這種程度 |
| 00:06:05,000 | 00:06:07,000 | 你就回答阿公是不是人 |
| 00:06:07,000 | 00:06:09,000 | 你再回答我 |
| 00:06:09,000 | 00:06:11,000 | 再打連我的邏輯 |
| 00:06:11,000 | 00:06:13,000 | 問你你的阿公是不是人 |
| 00:06:13,000 | 00:06:15,000 | 我不瞭解你的邏輯 |
| 00:06:15,000 | 00:06:17,000 | 你不瞭解我的邏輯 |
| 00:06:17,000 | 00:06:21,000 | 你現在就是護航到連你阿公是不是人你都沒有辦法回應 |
| 00:06:21,000 | 00:06:23,000 | 那我問部長的邏輯就是 |
| 00:06:23,000 | 00:06:27,000 | 如果今天我沒有要批評你的阿公是因為你不回答 |
| 00:06:27,000 | 00:06:30,000 | 我現在要問你你的村友是不是食品 |
| 00:06:30,000 | 00:06:33,000 | 如果你今天是大佛沙拉有食品 |
| 00:06:33,000 | 00:06:36,000 | 為什麼來自於他們上游半產品不是食品 |
| 00:06:36,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 我現在問你一件事 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:41,000 | 食安法看不懂食安法請長佐 |
| 00:06:41,000 | 00:06:43,000 | 食安法對於食品的定義是什麼 |
| 00:06:43,000 | 00:06:46,000 | 來講一下食品的定義是什麼 |
| 00:06:46,000 | 00:06:48,000 | 產品跟原料嘛 |
| 00:06:48,000 | 00:06:51,000 | 那為什麼剛有一個人講說原料不是食品 |
| 00:06:51,000 | 00:06:55,000 | 因為考量成本所以食安法才把原料歸進去 |
| 00:06:55,000 | 00:06:59,000 | 原料不是食品這是誰的論述剛有一個人的論述 |
| 00:06:59,000 | 00:07:01,000 | 曾經會委員問的 |
| 00:07:01,000 | 00:07:03,000 | 原料不是食品 |
| 00:07:03,000 | 00:07:06,000 | 請問一下部長你覺得原料是食品嗎 |
| 00:07:06,000 | 00:07:12,000 | 在食安法第三條明定食品當然包含產品及其原料 |
| 00:07:12,000 | 00:07:14,000 | 如果原料是食品 |
| 00:07:14,000 | 00:07:17,000 | 第七條的通報你也可以念一下 |
| 00:07:17,000 | 00:07:20,000 | 它談的是產品通報 |
| 00:07:20,000 | 00:07:24,000 | 如果原料是食品原料最後會變成成品 |
| 00:07:24,000 | 00:07:26,000 | 中間會有經過半產品 |
| 00:07:26,000 | 00:07:29,000 | 那請問一下如果原料都已經是食品了 |
| 00:07:29,000 | 00:07:34,000 | 食品業者於發現產品有危害 |
| 00:07:34,000 | 00:07:36,000 | 所以它針對的通報是產品 |
| 00:07:36,000 | 00:07:40,000 | 你為什麼覺得產品兩個字沒有包括成品跟半成品 |
| 00:07:40,000 | 00:07:42,000 | 為什麼你覺得產品兩個字 |
| 00:07:42,000 | 00:07:45,000 | 來我們看一下食安法第七條第二項 |
| 00:07:45,000 | 00:07:49,000 | 食品業者應該把產品原材料半成品 |
| 00:07:49,000 | 00:07:51,000 | 是食用油脂 |
| 00:07:51,000 | 00:07:53,000 | 你不要風拉西扯 |
| 00:07:53,000 | 00:07:55,000 | 我現在是在跟你講產品 |
| 00:07:55,000 | 00:07:56,000 | 來我請江志剛 |
| 00:07:56,000 | 00:07:59,000 | 江志剛署長我知道你有法律背景 |
| 00:07:59,000 | 00:08:01,000 | 請問一下產品兩個字 |
| 00:08:01,000 | 00:08:03,000 | 食安法第七條第五項 |
| 00:08:03,000 | 00:08:07,000 | 我們再講如果產品有危害衛生健康之虞要通報 |
| 00:08:07,000 | 00:08:11,000 | 請問產品兩個字有包括成品跟半成品嗎 |
| 00:08:11,000 | 00:08:13,000 | 我想這邊的產品 |
| 00:08:13,000 | 00:08:16,000 | 你有讀過法律請你不要 |
| 00:08:16,000 | 00:08:19,000 | 相對應我們其實對於規制裡面 |
| 00:08:19,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 有訂標準的這些產品有違規 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:24,000 | 不要先說解釋到這種程度 |
| 00:08:24,000 | 00:08:26,000 | 我們現在單純就在講產品 |
| 00:08:26,000 | 00:08:28,000 | 跟你做進一步的交流 |
| 00:08:28,000 | 00:08:29,000 | 什麼東西 |
| 00:08:29,000 | 00:08:31,000 | 我說就我的了解 |
| 00:08:31,000 | 00:08:33,000 | 我們對於這個產品 |
| 00:08:33,000 | 00:08:37,000 | 它有訂定的特定是衛生標準的扁平皮 |
| 00:08:37,000 | 00:08:40,000 | 所以這個產品有違規一定要通報 |
| 00:08:40,000 | 00:08:42,000 | 所以我違規要產品 |
| 00:08:42,000 | 00:08:44,000 | 我把之虞林淑芬委員在一個月之前 |
| 00:08:44,000 | 00:08:48,000 | 就已經之虞兩個字一再而再的提醒衛福部了 |
| 00:08:48,000 | 00:08:51,000 | 之虞就是沒有嚴格標準 |
| 00:08:51,000 | 00:08:52,000 | 懂不懂法律 |
| 00:08:52,000 | 00:08:54,000 | 現在是連文藝解釋也掌握不了嗎 |
| 00:08:54,000 | 00:08:56,000 | 來第一件事 |
| 00:08:56,000 | 00:08:58,000 | 為什麼我現在簡單的問 |
| 00:08:58,000 | 00:09:01,000 | 為什麼食安法第七條第五項產品兩個字 |
| 00:09:01,000 | 00:09:04,000 | 被你們解釋起來不包括成品跟半成品 |
| 00:09:04,000 | 00:09:05,000 | 為什麼 |
| 00:09:05,000 | 00:09:07,000 | 如果你的第二項 |
| 00:09:07,000 | 00:09:10,000 | 有提到說產品原材料半成品成品 |
| 00:09:10,000 | 00:09:13,000 | 就代表ABC這項元素 |
| 00:09:13,000 | 00:09:16,000 | 就是在食安食品的範圍之內 |
| 00:09:16,000 | 00:09:19,000 | 為什麼成品兩個字被你們解釋起來 |
| 00:09:19,000 | 00:09:21,000 | 沒有成品跟半成品 |
| 00:09:21,000 | 00:09:24,000 | 委員如果要把它做最大擴大的解釋 |
| 00:09:24,000 | 00:09:25,000 | 也不是不行 |
| 00:09:25,000 | 00:09:29,000 | 但是它的基本要件是要定有標準 |
| 00:09:29,000 | 00:09:31,000 | 人家已經之虞了 |
| 00:09:31,000 | 00:09:33,000 | 請問之虞會有標準嗎 |
| 00:09:33,000 | 00:09:36,000 | 之虞你看不懂法律嗎 |
| 00:09:36,000 | 00:09:37,000 | 之虞會有標準 |
| 00:09:37,000 | 00:09:39,000 | 你現在為了要護老 |
| 00:09:39,000 | 00:09:41,000 | 你忙到這種程度 |
| 00:09:41,000 | 00:09:42,000 | 來我先跟你 |
| 00:09:42,000 | 00:09:43,000 | 來 |
| 00:09:43,000 | 00:09:44,000 | 這是因為法律專家 |
| 00:09:44,000 | 00:09:45,000 | 所以聽不下去 |
| 00:09:45,000 | 00:09:47,000 | 我在下面就是聽得很痛苦 |
| 00:09:47,000 | 00:09:48,000 | 我講一下 |
| 00:09:48,000 | 00:09:50,000 | 所有的法律都有切記 |
| 00:09:50,000 | 00:09:51,000 | 你要講法律是嗎 |
| 00:09:51,000 | 00:09:52,000 | 你們的30條 |
| 00:09:52,000 | 00:09:53,000 | 你們的31條 |
| 00:09:53,000 | 00:09:55,000 | 你們的32條一錄以下 |
| 00:09:55,000 | 00:09:59,000 | 你們都把食品跟產品兩個字混用 |
| 00:09:59,000 | 00:10:00,000 | 回去看食安法 |
| 00:10:00,000 | 00:10:03,000 | 不要在這邊一拗產品兩個字 |
| 00:10:03,000 | 00:10:04,000 | 不是食品 |
| 00:10:04,000 | 00:10:05,000 | 產品兩個字 |
| 00:10:05,000 | 00:10:07,000 | 其實它就包括成品跟半成品 |
| 00:10:07,000 | 00:10:10,000 | 你們不要再不了解文藝解釋 |
| 00:10:10,000 | 00:10:11,000 | 縱使不了解文藝解釋 |
| 00:10:11,000 | 00:10:13,000 | 也應該掌握目的性的解釋 |
| 00:10:13,000 | 00:10:15,000 | 如果最上游的原料 |
| 00:10:15,000 | 00:10:17,000 | 都被認為是食品 |
| 00:10:17,000 | 00:10:18,000 | 中間會經過半成品 |
| 00:10:18,000 | 00:10:20,000 | 最後會變成成品 |
| 00:10:20,000 | 00:10:22,000 | 為什麼中間那一個不叫食品 |
| 00:10:22,000 | 00:10:24,000 | 你們不要昧著良心說話 |
| 00:10:24,000 | 00:10:25,000 | 這個完全是聽不下去 |
| 00:10:25,000 | 00:10:27,000 | 完全對不起整部食安法 |
| 00:10:27,000 | 00:10:29,000 | 你們把整部食安法 |
| 00:10:29,000 | 00:10:31,000 | 解釋的支離破碎 |
| 00:10:31,000 | 00:10:32,000 | 原料的歸原料 |
| 00:10:32,000 | 00:10:34,000 | 半成品的歸半成品 |
| 00:10:34,000 | 00:10:35,000 | 成品的歸成品 |
| 00:10:35,000 | 00:10:36,000 | 你們把整部食安法 |
| 00:10:36,000 | 00:10:37,000 | 解釋的支離破碎 |
| 00:10:37,000 | 00:10:39,000 | 就只是為了護航 |
| 00:10:40,000 | 00:10:41,000 | 這些解釋 |
| 00:10:41,000 | 00:10:42,000 | 請您去看看 |
| 00:10:42,000 | 00:10:44,000 | 請你去問法律專家 |
| 00:10:44,000 | 00:10:46,000 | 因為其實真的有法律專家 |
| 00:10:46,000 | 00:10:48,000 | 已經打聯你了 |
| 00:10:48,000 | 00:10:50,000 | 高檢署的主任 |
| 00:10:50,000 | 00:10:51,000 | 他已經打聯你了 |
| 00:10:51,000 | 00:10:52,000 | 人家是讀法律的 |
| 00:10:52,000 | 00:10:54,000 | 你不是讀法律的 |
| 00:10:54,000 | 00:10:57,000 | 你也許是衛生福利事項的專家 |
| 00:10:57,000 | 00:10:59,000 | 但是你不是解釋法律的專家 |
| 00:10:59,000 | 00:11:00,000 | 我們解釋法律 |
| 00:11:00,000 | 00:11:01,000 | 有文藝解釋 |
| 00:11:01,000 | 00:11:02,000 | 有目的性解釋 |
| 00:11:02,000 | 00:11:04,000 | 我們有體系解釋 |
| 00:11:04,000 | 00:11:06,000 | 不管用哪一種標準解釋 |
| 00:11:06,000 | 00:11:07,000 | 解釋進來 |
| 00:11:07,000 | 00:11:08,000 | 產品兩個字 |
| 00:11:08,000 | 00:11:09,000 | 我再說一次 |
| 00:11:09,000 | 00:11:11,000 | 就是包括成品跟半成品 |
| 00:11:11,000 | 00:11:12,000 | 我再說一次 |
| 00:11:12,000 | 00:11:14,000 | 產品兩個字就是食品 |
| 00:11:14,000 | 00:11:15,000 | 我再說一次 |
| 00:11:15,000 | 00:11:16,000 | 從食安法 |
| 00:11:16,000 | 00:11:18,000 | 從第一條看到最後一條 |
| 00:11:18,000 | 00:11:21,000 | 產品跟食品兩個字 |
| 00:11:21,000 | 00:11:22,000 | 完全是混用的 |
| 00:11:22,000 | 00:11:23,000 | 經得起考驗 |
| 00:11:23,000 | 00:11:25,000 | 大家自己去翻食安法 |
| 00:11:25,000 | 00:11:27,000 | 請問一下經濟部的爛菜說 |
| 00:11:27,000 | 00:11:29,000 | 部長認同嗎 |
| 00:11:30,000 | 00:11:32,000 | 你如果去買菜 |
| 00:11:32,000 | 00:11:35,000 | 結果那個阿姨跟你講說 |
| 00:11:36,000 | 00:11:37,000 | 你買到這個爛菜 |
| 00:11:37,000 | 00:11:39,000 | 請問你做何感想 |
| 00:11:40,000 | 00:11:41,000 | 請問你買的 |
| 00:11:41,000 | 00:11:42,000 | 部長你買到這個爛菜 |
| 00:11:42,000 | 00:11:43,000 | 請問你做何感想 |
| 00:11:43,000 | 00:11:45,000 | 我再問石崇良部長 |
| 00:11:47,000 | 00:11:48,000 | 請問你買到這個爛菜 |
| 00:11:48,000 | 00:11:50,000 | 你做何感想 |
| 00:11:50,000 | 00:11:53,000 | 這個照片有問題 |
| 00:11:53,000 | 00:11:54,000 | 沒有關係啦 |
| 00:11:54,000 | 00:11:55,000 | 就AI啦 |
| 00:11:55,000 | 00:11:57,000 | 名字是你啦 |
| 00:11:57,000 | 00:11:59,000 | 沒有經過我同意 |
| 00:11:59,000 | 00:12:00,000 | 沒有經過你同意 |
| 00:12:00,000 | 00:12:02,000 | 我對這個行業我很抗議 |
| 00:12:02,000 | 00:12:03,000 | 你很抗議 |
| 00:12:03,000 | 00:12:04,000 | 抗議什麼 |
| 00:12:04,000 | 00:12:05,000 | 請問你抗議什麼 |
| 00:12:05,000 | 00:12:06,000 | 沒有我同意 |
| 00:12:06,000 | 00:12:07,000 | 怎麼會有我的肖像呢 |
| 00:12:07,000 | 00:12:08,000 | 肖像完全是 |
| 00:12:08,000 | 00:12:10,000 | 所以你要怎麼樣 |
| 00:12:10,000 | 00:12:11,000 | 你可以主張 |
| 00:12:11,000 | 00:12:12,000 | 當然可以 |
| 00:12:12,000 | 00:12:13,000 | 把它換成是委員的嗎 |
| 00:12:13,000 | 00:12:14,000 | 可以啊 |
| 00:12:14,000 | 00:12:15,000 | 你換啊 |
| 00:12:15,000 | 00:12:16,000 | 這沒有什麼 |
| 00:12:16,000 | 00:12:17,000 | 這本來就是可說公平 |
| 00:12:17,000 | 00:12:18,000 | 公開 |
| 00:12:18,000 | 00:12:19,000 | 我尊重委員的肖像權 |
| 00:12:19,000 | 00:12:21,000 | 如果真的覺得你不舒服 |
| 00:12:21,000 | 00:12:23,000 | 或者是如果你覺得我有違法 |
| 00:12:23,000 | 00:12:25,000 | 那就請你去提告 |
| 00:12:25,000 | 00:12:26,000 | 非常不舒服 |
| 00:12:26,000 | 00:12:28,000 | 那我很遺憾 |
| 00:12:28,000 | 00:12:30,000 | 我很遺憾我在質詢 |
| 00:12:30,000 | 00:12:31,000 | 站在立法委員的職權 |
| 00:12:31,000 | 00:12:32,000 | 然後你不舒服 |
| 00:12:32,000 | 00:12:33,000 | 我很遺憾啊 |
| 00:12:33,000 | 00:12:35,000 | 那如果你要我道歉 |
| 00:12:35,000 | 00:12:36,000 | 沒問題可以跟你道歉 |
| 00:12:36,000 | 00:12:38,000 | 這根本是芝麻綠豆大的小事 |
| 00:12:38,000 | 00:12:40,000 | 沒有必要拿來質詢台下議方 |
| 00:12:40,000 | 00:12:41,000 | 第一 |
| 00:12:41,000 | 00:12:42,000 | 這個問題 |
| 00:12:42,000 | 00:12:43,000 | 這個不是芝麻綠豆大的小事 |
| 00:12:43,000 | 00:12:44,000 | 好沒關係 |
| 00:12:44,000 | 00:12:45,000 | 如果你不舒服 |
| 00:12:45,000 | 00:12:46,000 | 我就道歉 |
| 00:12:46,000 | 00:12:47,000 | 那我現在就是 |
| 00:12:47,000 | 00:12:48,000 | 如果今天你去買到一個爛菜 |
| 00:12:48,000 | 00:12:50,000 | 請問一下你做何感想 |
| 00:12:50,000 | 00:12:52,000 | 我當然不會想要買爛菜啊 |
| 00:12:52,000 | 00:12:54,000 | 對啊你當然不會想買爛菜啊 |
| 00:12:54,000 | 00:12:56,000 | 那爛菜為什麼會流通到市面 |
| 00:12:56,000 | 00:12:57,000 | 因為政府沒有介入 |
| 00:12:57,000 | 00:12:58,000 | 政府沒有管制啊 |
| 00:12:58,000 | 00:13:00,000 | 所以爛菜才出現在拆攤商啊 |
| 00:13:00,000 | 00:13:02,000 | 你當然不會想到買爛菜啊 |
| 00:13:02,000 | 00:13:04,000 | 如果不通報全民受害 |
| 00:13:04,000 | 00:13:06,000 | 連你部長也會被包獲進去啊 |
| 00:13:06,000 | 00:13:08,000 | 部長我問你 |
| 00:13:08,000 | 00:13:09,000 | 請問你真的吃到毒油 |
| 00:13:09,000 | 00:13:11,000 | 你沒有關係嗎 |
| 00:13:11,000 | 00:13:13,000 | 我們會油品做安全的保管 |
| 00:13:13,000 | 00:13:15,000 | 我們會有出油啊 |
| 00:13:15,000 | 00:13:16,000 | 我告訴你這些油已經全部都流到 |
| 00:13:16,000 | 00:13:17,000 | 每個人的肚子裡面去 |
| 00:13:17,000 | 00:13:19,000 | 連代總統都吃到了 |
| 00:13:19,000 | 00:13:21,000 | 你真的吃到毒油也沒關係嗎 |
| 00:13:21,000 | 00:13:23,000 | 好那我現在再問你一件事 |
| 00:13:23,000 | 00:13:26,000 | 請問一下通報只能靠法律嗎 |
| 00:13:26,000 | 00:13:29,000 | 我完全全認為食安法第七號第五項 |
| 00:13:29,000 | 00:13:31,000 | 就是包括成品辦成品還有原料 |
| 00:13:31,000 | 00:13:33,000 | 那你不認為好 |
| 00:13:33,000 | 00:13:34,000 | 退步言之如果通報 |
| 00:13:34,000 | 00:13:37,000 | 不能靠法律的話能不能靠良心 |
| 00:13:37,000 | 00:13:38,000 | 能不能用高標準 |
| 00:13:38,000 | 00:13:40,000 | 法律只是一個最低的標準 |
| 00:13:40,000 | 00:13:43,000 | 良心是一個比較高的標準 |
| 00:13:43,000 | 00:13:45,000 | 難道我們對經濟品求財 |
| 00:13:45,000 | 00:13:47,000 | 我們希望大家一起把關 |
| 00:13:47,000 | 00:13:49,000 | 我們用的是最低的標準嗎 |
| 00:13:49,000 | 00:13:51,000 | 我們不能用高一點的標準嗎 |
| 00:13:51,000 | 00:13:52,000 | 我們都支持 |
| 00:13:52,000 | 00:13:54,000 | 為了食安把關 |
| 00:13:54,000 | 00:13:55,000 | 全民來通報 |
| 00:13:55,000 | 00:13:57,000 | 我們都支持 |
| 00:13:57,000 | 00:13:58,000 | 我們也鼓勵 |
| 00:13:58,000 | 00:14:01,000 | 但是面對要裁罰的時候 |
| 00:14:01,000 | 00:14:03,000 | 我們必須依法裁處 |
| 00:14:03,000 | 00:14:05,000 | 那依法裁處就是已經告訴你了 |
| 00:14:05,000 | 00:14:07,000 | 法律保有原則 |
| 00:14:07,000 | 00:14:09,000 | 你們可能要請法律專家來幫你們 |
| 00:14:09,000 | 00:14:11,000 | 鑑定第七條第五項 |
| 00:14:11,000 | 00:14:12,000 | 有沒有包括產品 |
| 00:14:12,000 | 00:14:14,000 | 我相信你去問十個法律專家 |
| 00:14:14,000 | 00:14:16,000 | 有十個法律專家都會告訴你 |
| 00:14:16,000 | 00:14:19,000 | 產品絕對有包括成品跟半成品 |
| 00:14:19,000 | 00:14:22,000 | 所以請你今天去找法律專家 |
| 00:14:22,000 | 00:14:23,000 | 跟他們諮詢 |
| 00:14:23,000 | 00:14:26,000 | 好來那接著我們來看一下 |
| 00:14:26,000 | 00:14:28,000 | 通報義務要不要問總統 |
| 00:14:28,000 | 00:14:30,000 | 總統在當台南市長的時候 |
| 00:14:30,000 | 00:14:33,000 | 他有訂出這個台南市食品安全管理自治條例 |
| 00:14:33,000 | 00:14:36,000 | 他有提到說食品有危害生命身體之慾 |
| 00:14:36,000 | 00:14:38,000 | 但四十八小時就要通報 |
| 00:14:38,000 | 00:14:40,000 | 那請問一下石崇良部長 |
| 00:14:40,000 | 00:14:43,000 | 你認同這個賴清德總統 |
| 00:14:43,000 | 00:14:47,000 | 在他市長任內所通過的這個自治條例嗎 |
| 00:14:47,000 | 00:14:49,000 | 我認同依法行政 |
| 00:14:49,000 | 00:14:50,000 | 你認同依法行政 |
| 00:14:50,000 | 00:14:53,000 | 但是你今天認為台糖不用通報 |
| 00:14:53,000 | 00:14:55,000 | 你就完全是打臉總統 |
| 00:14:55,000 | 00:14:57,000 | 他在市長時期所訂出來的法律 |
| 00:14:57,000 | 00:14:59,000 | 因為我們大家解讀就是這樣 |
| 00:14:59,000 | 00:15:00,000 | 那我想呢 |
| 00:15:00,000 | 00:15:02,000 | 我們需要依法行政 |
| 00:15:02,000 | 00:15:05,000 | 衛福部一路開綠燈開到現在 |
| 00:15:05,000 | 00:15:08,000 | 請問一下台糖的依法行政 |
| 00:15:08,000 | 00:15:09,000 | 那依法行政很好 |
| 00:15:09,000 | 00:15:11,000 | 其實法律保有原則 |
| 00:15:11,000 | 00:15:12,000 | 沒關係 |
| 00:15:12,000 | 00:15:13,000 | 法律保留 |
| 00:15:13,000 | 00:15:16,000 | 我們訂的就是食用油脂的 |
| 00:15:16,000 | 00:15:19,000 | 產品有疑慮的通報義務 |
| 00:15:19,000 | 00:15:21,000 | 已經保留給法律去制定了 |
| 00:15:21,000 | 00:15:23,000 | 就是食含法七條第五條 |
| 00:15:23,000 | 00:15:25,000 | 他本身已經踐行法律保留原則 |
| 00:15:25,000 | 00:15:28,000 | 只是執法的人不認為 |
| 00:15:28,000 | 00:15:31,000 | 法律裡頭的文藝有包括半成品 |
| 00:15:31,000 | 00:15:33,000 | 所以你說你要依法行政 |
| 00:15:33,000 | 00:15:34,000 | 我舉雙手 |
| 00:15:34,000 | 00:15:36,000 | 不要擴大文藝都沒有關係 |
| 00:15:36,000 | 00:15:37,000 | 但是我還是強調 |
| 00:15:37,000 | 00:15:38,000 | 我沒有擴大文藝 |
| 00:15:38,000 | 00:15:40,000 | 你沒有擴大文藝 |
| 00:15:40,000 | 00:15:42,000 | 這個就做法律的違規 |
| 00:15:42,000 | 00:15:45,000 | 不是訂在脫交原油 |
| 00:15:45,000 | 00:15:47,000 | 蛤 你再說一次 |
| 00:15:47,000 | 00:15:49,000 | 我們的貶貧比標準 |
| 00:15:49,000 | 00:15:52,000 | 是訂在食用油脂 |
| 00:15:52,000 | 00:15:54,000 | 不是脫交原油 |
| 00:15:54,000 | 00:15:56,000 | 如果這樣下去的時候 |
| 00:15:56,000 | 00:15:58,000 | 可能還要很久都沒有通報 |
| 00:15:58,000 | 00:16:00,000 | 你剛開始在跟我 |
| 00:16:00,000 | 00:16:02,000 | 你今天的脫交原油 |
| 00:16:02,000 | 00:16:04,000 | 最初的是2.4 |
| 00:16:04,000 | 00:16:06,000 | 等我已經把聯名打到聯行總 |
| 00:16:06,000 | 00:16:07,000 | 你講不下去 |
| 00:16:07,000 | 00:16:09,000 | 你已經放棄護守產品兩個字 |
| 00:16:09,000 | 00:16:12,000 | 你現在在給我護守脂肪兩個字 |
| 00:16:12,000 | 00:16:13,000 | 說這個是嚴格的標準 |
| 00:16:13,000 | 00:16:16,000 | 什麼貶貧比的標準 |
| 00:16:16,000 | 00:16:18,000 | 脂肪兩個字有嚴格的標準嗎 |
| 00:16:18,000 | 00:16:21,000 | 到底看不看得懂法律 |
| 00:16:22,000 | 00:16:23,000 | 所以現在到底沒有通報 |
| 00:16:23,000 | 00:16:25,000 | 是出在產品兩個字 |
| 00:16:25,000 | 00:16:26,000 | 還是出在脂肪兩個字 |
| 00:16:26,000 | 00:16:27,000 | 部長 |
| 00:16:27,000 | 00:16:30,000 | 要裁罰我們一定要依據 |
| 00:16:30,000 | 00:16:31,000 | 那我們的依據 |
| 00:16:31,000 | 00:16:35,000 | 貶貧比是訂在食用油脂 |
| 00:16:35,000 | 00:16:37,000 | 第一區條第五項 |
| 00:16:37,000 | 00:16:41,000 | 如果今天貶貧比是0-1 |
| 00:16:41,000 | 00:16:43,000 | 大家就是沒有嚴格標準 |
| 00:16:43,000 | 00:16:46,000 | 但是我們訂的是食用油脂 |
| 00:16:46,000 | 00:16:49,000 | 你要不要再問他對脂肪兩個字的勾結 |
| 00:16:49,000 | 00:16:51,000 | 請問一下衛福部什麼時候知情的 |
| 00:16:51,000 | 00:16:53,000 | 台糖的事件 |
| 00:16:53,000 | 00:16:54,000 | 我們是兩天前知情的 |
| 00:16:54,000 | 00:16:56,000 | 那衛福部什麼時候知情的 |
| 00:16:59,000 | 00:17:02,000 | 我們是專家進入我們署內的同仁 |
| 00:17:02,000 | 00:17:04,000 | 進去調查原因的時候 |
| 00:17:04,000 | 00:17:06,000 | 看到的報告裡面 |
| 00:17:06,000 | 00:17:08,000 | 有看到是7月15號 |
| 00:17:08,000 | 00:17:10,000 | 所以你們7月15號才知道 |
| 00:17:10,000 | 00:17:12,000 | 台糖這個事件 |
| 00:17:12,000 | 00:17:14,000 | 所以你們7月15號才知道 |
| 00:17:14,000 | 00:17:15,000 | 台糖這個事件 |
| 00:17:15,000 | 00:17:17,000 | 來經濟部有請 |
| 00:17:17,000 | 00:17:18,000 | 請問一下你們什麼時候知道 |
| 00:17:18,000 | 00:17:20,000 | 這個台糖事件 |
| 00:17:29,000 | 00:17:30,000 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:17:30,000 | 00:17:31,000 | 在7月9號 |
| 00:17:31,000 | 00:17:34,000 | 那高雄市政府採訪預防性下架的時候 |
| 00:17:34,000 | 00:17:36,000 | 我們就積極的去了解說 |
| 00:17:36,000 | 00:17:38,000 | 台糖的所有的產品裡面 |
| 00:17:38,000 | 00:17:41,000 | 有沒有危害食品安全 |
| 00:17:41,000 | 00:17:43,000 | 所以你是7月9號才知道的嗎 |
| 00:17:43,000 | 00:17:45,000 | 所以你是7月9號才知道的 |
| 00:17:45,000 | 00:17:47,000 | 台糖公司有把這個事情 |
| 00:17:47,000 | 00:17:49,000 | 那時候火燒那麼大 |
| 00:17:49,000 | 00:17:51,000 | 你有沒有跟行政院長報告 |
| 00:17:51,000 | 00:17:53,000 | 不是 因為這個台糖的 |
| 00:17:53,000 | 00:17:54,000 | 我們去了解 |
| 00:17:54,000 | 00:17:57,000 | 台糖的所有的產品跟原料 |
| 00:17:57,000 | 00:18:00,000 | 都是合乎食安法的規定的 |
| 00:18:00,000 | 00:18:01,000 | 第二個 |
| 00:18:01,000 | 00:18:02,000 | 第二個 |
| 00:18:02,000 | 00:18:04,000 | 台糖所採購的 |
| 00:18:04,000 | 00:18:06,000 | 所有的出交原有的部分 |
| 00:18:06,000 | 00:18:07,000 | 不允收的部分 |
| 00:18:07,000 | 00:18:10,000 | 始終是在台中的中聯廠裡面 |
| 00:18:10,000 | 00:18:13,000 | 並沒有到台糖的生產的供應鏈 |
| 00:18:13,000 | 00:18:14,000 | 那我現在問你 |
| 00:18:14,000 | 00:18:16,000 | 而台中地方法院 |
| 00:18:16,000 | 00:18:17,000 | 好 沒關係 |
| 00:18:17,000 | 00:18:19,000 | 它在新聞稿裡面提到 |
| 00:18:19,000 | 00:18:21,000 | 中聯跟國貿它有通報不確認 |
| 00:18:21,000 | 00:18:22,000 | 你說它退回給中聯 |
| 00:18:22,000 | 00:18:25,000 | 那中聯請問誰要通報 |
| 00:18:25,000 | 00:18:26,000 | 許甫主任 |
| 00:18:26,000 | 00:18:27,000 | 我剛剛是說 |
| 00:18:27,000 | 00:18:29,000 | 地方法院的新聞稿講得很清楚 |
| 00:18:29,000 | 00:18:30,000 | 是誰要通報 |
| 00:18:30,000 | 00:18:31,000 | 就是要通報 |
| 00:18:31,000 | 00:18:32,000 | 誰要通報 |
| 00:18:32,000 | 00:18:33,000 | 中聯 |
| 00:18:33,000 | 00:18:34,000 | 好 那我請問一下 |
| 00:18:34,000 | 00:18:35,000 | 許甫誰要通報 |
| 00:18:35,000 | 00:18:37,000 | 許甫主任誰要通報 |
| 00:18:37,000 | 00:18:40,000 | 這個貨物的主人是中聯的 |
| 00:18:40,000 | 00:18:43,000 | 所以是誰要通報 |
| 00:18:43,000 | 00:18:45,000 | 好 那這個只是脫交原有嗎 |
| 00:18:45,000 | 00:18:48,000 | 所以你們都覺得中聯要通報嗎 |
| 00:18:48,000 | 00:18:49,000 | 是嗎 |
| 00:18:49,000 | 00:18:51,000 | 如果你們覺得中聯要通報 |
| 00:18:51,000 | 00:18:54,000 | 請問法律依據在哪裡 |
| 00:18:54,000 | 00:18:56,000 | 因為它只是原料 |
| 00:18:56,000 | 00:18:57,000 | 它只是脫交原有 |
| 00:18:57,000 | 00:18:59,000 | 請問要通報的依據是什麼 |
| 00:18:59,000 | 00:19:01,000 | 是七條第五項嗎 |
| 00:19:01,000 | 00:19:03,000 | 你們不是認為七條第五項 |
| 00:19:03,000 | 00:19:06,000 | 不能夠作為脫交原有的通報依據 |
| 00:19:06,000 | 00:19:08,000 | 如果台壇不用通報 |
| 00:19:08,000 | 00:19:10,000 | 到了中聯就要通報 |
| 00:19:10,000 | 00:19:12,000 | 而中聯用的法條就是七條第五項 |
| 00:19:12,000 | 00:19:14,000 | 台壇因為七條第五項不能用 |
| 00:19:14,000 | 00:19:16,000 | 到了中聯就可以用 |
| 00:19:16,000 | 00:19:18,000 | 請問通報的法源依據在哪裡 |
| 00:19:18,000 | 00:19:20,000 | 好 我向委員說明 |
| 00:19:20,000 | 00:19:23,000 | 同樣在十七條是衛生標準 |
| 00:19:23,000 | 00:19:25,000 | 我剛剛有跟部門委員說明 |
| 00:19:26,000 | 00:19:29,000 | 生菌素所有生的肉跟魚都是 |
| 00:19:29,000 | 00:19:32,000 | 有危害安全值與之於兩個字 |
| 00:19:32,000 | 00:19:34,000 | 這是非常寬鬆的 |
| 00:19:34,000 | 00:19:36,000 | 不要再跟我講嚴格的標準 |
| 00:19:36,000 | 00:19:38,000 | 本篇的標準 |
| 00:19:38,000 | 00:19:40,000 | 就所有的 你要看樣態 |
| 00:19:40,000 | 00:19:42,000 | 看原料屬於哪裡 |
| 00:19:42,000 | 00:19:44,000 | 樣態就是台壇 |
| 00:19:44,000 | 00:19:46,000 | 台壇的樣態就是不用通報 |
| 00:19:46,000 | 00:19:48,000 | 樣態就是中聯 |
| 00:19:48,000 | 00:19:49,000 | 中聯就是要通報 |
| 00:19:49,000 | 00:19:51,000 | 這就是你們的樣態 |
| 00:19:51,000 | 00:19:53,000 | 好 所以你們的抗片已經從產品 |
| 00:19:53,000 | 00:19:56,000 | 現在已經發展到之於兩個字了 |
| 00:19:56,000 | 00:19:58,000 | 那請問一下行政院長 |
| 00:19:58,000 | 00:20:00,000 | 為什麼在專案報告的時候 |
| 00:20:00,000 | 00:20:02,000 | 舉個例子就很容易理解 |
| 00:20:02,000 | 00:20:05,000 | 我們吃的豬排它含有生菌 |
| 00:20:05,000 | 00:20:08,000 | 所以生菌要不要來通報 |
| 00:20:08,000 | 00:20:10,000 | 不用 因為它最終的產品 |
| 00:20:10,000 | 00:20:12,000 | 是做成炸豬排 |
| 00:20:12,000 | 00:20:14,000 | 它會把生菌消除掉 |
| 00:20:14,000 | 00:20:16,000 | 生菌是什麼 細菌啊 |
| 00:20:16,000 | 00:20:18,000 | 肉裡面有細菌啊 |
| 00:20:18,000 | 00:20:20,000 | 那個是添加的細菌 |
| 00:20:20,000 | 00:20:22,000 | 你不要在那邊跟我胡扯 |
| 00:20:22,000 | 00:20:24,000 | 你跟我胡扯 |
| 00:20:24,000 | 00:20:26,000 | 跟我的胡扯你的阿公 |
| 00:20:26,000 | 00:20:28,000 | 在你的耳裡聽起來很怪 |
| 00:20:28,000 | 00:20:30,000 | 你在便利超商裡面的這些成品 |
| 00:20:30,000 | 00:20:32,000 | 都是非常自殺過來的 |
| 00:20:32,000 | 00:20:34,000 | 我現在講的是半成品 |
| 00:20:34,000 | 00:20:36,000 | 是屬於食品的一環 |
| 00:20:36,000 | 00:20:38,000 | 你不要跟我扯東扯西 |
| 00:20:38,000 | 00:20:40,000 | 因為我覺得你的邏輯我才不懂 |
| 00:20:40,000 | 00:20:42,000 | 你的邏輯我才不懂得一塌糊塗好嗎 |
| 00:20:42,000 | 00:20:44,000 | 來 行政院長請問一下 |
| 00:20:44,000 | 00:20:46,000 | 他在食安匯報 |
| 00:20:46,000 | 00:20:48,000 | 怎麼沒有提到台壇這件事 |
| 00:20:48,000 | 00:20:50,000 | 你們有跟他報告嗎 |
| 00:20:50,000 | 00:20:52,000 | 你一個說7月9號知情 |
| 00:20:52,000 | 00:20:54,000 | 一個說7月15號知情 |
| 00:20:54,000 | 00:20:56,000 | 請問一下院長 |
| 00:20:56,000 | 00:20:58,000 | 你們完全都沒有跟行政院長報告過這件事嗎 |
| 00:20:58,000 | 00:21:04,000 | 我們院大概就是署長所提到的 |
| 00:21:04,000 | 00:21:06,000 | 所以 反正現在大概是9號 |
| 00:21:06,000 | 00:21:08,000 | 然後15號進場去看到 |
| 00:21:08,000 | 00:21:10,000 | 我知道啦 |
| 00:21:10,000 | 00:21:12,000 | 但你們請問一下衛福部這邊 |
| 00:21:12,000 | 00:21:14,000 | 有沒有跟行政院長報告 |
| 00:21:14,000 | 00:21:16,000 | 時部長你有沒有跟行政院長報告這件事 |
| 00:21:16,000 | 00:21:18,000 | 台壇的是經濟部所屬的 |
| 00:21:18,000 | 00:21:20,000 | 台壇國營事業 |
| 00:21:20,000 | 00:21:22,000 | 這個都是在7月1號 |
| 00:21:22,000 | 00:21:24,000 | 不是啦 你就說有跟沒有就好了 |
| 00:21:24,000 | 00:21:26,000 | 把他停工 |
| 00:21:26,000 | 00:21:28,000 | 我後面還沒推診 |
| 00:21:28,000 | 00:21:32,000 | 這個已經在7月1號以後都已經停工了 |
| 00:21:32,000 | 00:21:34,000 | 所以這個脫交緣由 |
| 00:21:34,000 | 00:21:36,000 | 你有沒有跟行政院長報告這件事 |
| 00:21:36,000 | 00:21:38,000 | 你先回答再來經濟部回答 |
| 00:21:38,000 | 00:21:40,000 | 你有沒有跟行政院長報告這件事 |
| 00:21:40,000 | 00:21:42,000 | 7月15號知道 |
| 00:21:42,000 | 00:21:44,000 | 有沒有跟行政院長報告這件事 |
| 00:21:44,000 | 00:21:46,000 | 所以行政院長跟我們一樣 |
| 00:21:46,000 | 00:21:48,000 | 我們最後一定會報告的嘛 |
| 00:21:48,000 | 00:21:50,000 | 要什麼時候報告 |
| 00:21:50,000 | 00:21:52,000 | 日期有那麼難以啟齒嗎 |
| 00:21:52,000 | 00:21:54,000 | 日期我要確認 |
| 00:21:54,000 | 00:21:56,000 | 你要確認 |
| 00:21:56,000 | 00:21:58,000 | 因為我經常在跟院長報告很多事情 |
| 00:21:58,000 | 00:22:00,000 | 那你什麼時候能夠跟我們確認 |
| 00:22:00,000 | 00:22:02,000 | 我要看看我能不能想得起來 |
| 00:22:02,000 | 00:22:04,000 | 好 |
| 00:22:04,000 | 00:22:06,000 | 所以你就這麼不把 |
| 00:22:06,000 | 00:22:08,000 | 你跟行政院長的會面上心 |
| 00:22:08,000 | 00:22:10,000 | 居然還要看你想不想得起來 |
| 00:22:10,000 | 00:22:12,000 | 不能夠因為他沒有關心你 |
| 00:22:12,000 | 00:22:14,000 | 眼睛中的血絲 |
| 00:22:14,000 | 00:22:16,000 | 你就這樣子忽略院長 |
| 00:22:16,000 | 00:22:18,000 | 我們有報告 |
| 00:22:18,000 | 00:22:20,000 | 有報告什麼時候你要講不出來 |
| 00:22:20,000 | 00:22:22,000 | 反正你就是講不出來 |
| 00:22:22,000 | 00:22:24,000 | 我都你要想 |
| 00:22:24,000 | 00:22:26,000 | 但你又說你有可能想不起來 |
| 00:22:26,000 | 00:22:28,000 | 我想說長官跟長官見面 |
| 00:22:28,000 | 00:22:30,000 | 我們都很珍惜這樣的機會 |
| 00:22:30,000 | 00:22:32,000 | 結果你居然想不起來 |
| 00:22:32,000 | 00:22:34,000 | 經濟部長什麼時候跟行政院長報告的 |
| 00:22:34,000 | 00:22:36,000 | 7月9號我們接獲 |
| 00:22:36,000 | 00:22:38,000 | 台南公司通報 |
| 00:22:38,000 | 00:22:40,000 | 他被高雄市政府 |
| 00:22:40,000 | 00:22:42,000 | 預防性下架之後 |
| 00:22:42,000 | 00:22:44,000 | 我們的國運司就請 |
| 00:22:44,000 | 00:22:46,000 | 台南公司必須要配合 |
| 00:22:46,000 | 00:22:48,000 | 地方主管機關 |
| 00:22:48,000 | 00:22:50,000 | 跟行政院長不要講那麼多 |
| 00:22:50,000 | 00:22:52,000 | 因為我快要收尾了好不好 |
| 00:22:52,000 | 00:22:54,000 | 我也不想讓後面的人等很久 |
| 00:22:54,000 | 00:22:56,000 | 我跟委員講的就是事實 |
| 00:22:56,000 | 00:22:58,000 | 什麼時候跟行政院長 |
| 00:22:58,000 | 00:23:00,000 | 因為我還沒聽到行政院長這四個關鍵字 |
| 00:23:00,000 | 00:23:02,000 | 什麼時候跟行政院長報告的 |
| 00:23:02,000 | 00:23:04,000 | 因為台南公司依照他契約所辦理的 |
| 00:23:04,000 | 00:23:06,000 | 一個事項他平常都不需要 |
| 00:23:06,000 | 00:23:08,000 | 跟經濟部來做報告 |
| 00:23:08,000 | 00:23:10,000 | 不是啦你知情之後 |
| 00:23:10,000 | 00:23:12,000 | 跟行政院長報告這件事 |
| 00:23:12,000 | 00:23:14,000 | 有還是沒有 |
| 00:23:14,000 | 00:23:16,000 | 所以你們沒有跟行政院長報告嗎 |
| 00:23:16,000 | 00:23:18,000 | 不像石部長 |
| 00:23:18,000 | 00:23:20,000 | 沒有跟行政院長報告嗎 |
| 00:23:20,000 | 00:23:22,000 | 沒有嘛 |
| 00:23:22,000 | 00:23:24,000 | 所以行政院長只是石同良 |
| 00:23:24,000 | 00:23:26,000 | 部長去報告的 |
| 00:23:26,000 | 00:23:28,000 | 而已嗎是這樣嗎 |
| 00:23:28,000 | 00:23:30,000 | 你們沒有跟行政院長報告 |
| 00:23:30,000 | 00:23:32,000 | 台南公司會配合他這個 |
| 00:23:32,000 | 00:23:34,000 | 專案跟地方的這個專案的清查 |
| 00:23:34,000 | 00:23:36,000 | 的一個作業 |
| 00:23:36,000 | 00:23:38,000 | 不是你們到底有沒有跟行政院長報告 |
| 00:23:38,000 | 00:23:40,000 | 結果當然是我們中央主管機關 |
| 00:23:40,000 | 00:23:42,000 | 或是地方主管機關都會知道 |
| 00:23:42,000 | 00:23:44,000 | 不是啦 |
| 00:23:44,000 | 00:23:46,000 | 我不是中央主管機關 |
| 00:23:46,000 | 00:23:48,000 | 我在問行政院長他也是中央主管機關 |
| 00:23:48,000 | 00:23:50,000 | 我在問院長知不知道這件事 |
| 00:23:50,000 | 00:23:52,000 | 你們經濟部有沒有跟他 |
| 00:23:52,000 | 00:23:54,000 | 報告畢竟台糖是國營 |
| 00:23:54,000 | 00:23:56,000 | 事業 |
| 00:23:56,000 | 00:23:58,000 | 你們有沒有跟院長報告嗎 |
| 00:23:58,000 | 00:24:00,000 | 這麼難回答嗎 |
| 00:24:00,000 | 00:24:02,000 | 跟委員說明台糖 |
| 00:24:02,000 | 00:24:04,000 | 他的生產的這個產品 |
| 00:24:04,000 | 00:24:06,000 | 譬如說大豆沙 |
| 00:24:06,000 | 00:24:08,000 | 你們有沒有跟行政院長報告 |
| 00:24:08,000 | 00:24:10,000 | 你們有沒有跟行政院長報告 |
| 00:24:10,000 | 00:24:12,000 | 這個就是台糖公司的責任 |
| 00:24:12,000 | 00:24:14,000 | 那所以你們沒有跟行政院長報告嗎 |
| 00:24:14,000 | 00:24:16,000 | 是嗎你們沒有跟行政院長報告 |
| 00:24:16,000 | 00:24:18,000 | 是嗎是嗎 |
| 00:24:18,000 | 00:24:20,000 | 沒有報告嗎 |
| 00:24:20,000 | 00:24:22,000 | 就是沒有報告是嗎 |
| 00:24:22,000 | 00:24:24,000 | 聽起來就是沒有報告是嗎 |
| 00:24:24,000 | 00:24:26,000 | 這個在我 |
| 00:24:26,000 | 00:24:28,000 | 我知道的部分我也沒有 |
| 00:24:28,000 | 00:24:30,000 | 參加過院長的會議 |
| 00:24:30,000 | 00:24:32,000 | 你就講經濟部沒有報告 |
| 00:24:32,000 | 00:24:34,000 | 就好啦不是嗎 |
| 00:24:34,000 | 00:24:36,000 | 那經濟部沒有報告嗎 |
| 00:24:36,000 | 00:24:38,000 | 是這樣嗎 |
| 00:24:38,000 | 00:24:40,000 | 請問一下 |
| 00:24:40,000 | 00:24:42,000 | 部長我請問一下 |
| 00:24:42,000 | 00:24:44,000 | 這一批毒藥1300公噸4月出貨 |
| 00:24:44,000 | 00:24:46,000 | 5月驗出7月出財封存 |
| 00:24:46,000 | 00:24:48,000 | 請問一下你們在 |
| 00:24:48,000 | 00:24:50,000 | 7月17公布這些 |
| 00:24:50,000 | 00:24:52,000 | 4月到6月中聯所 |
| 00:24:52,000 | 00:24:54,000 | 流出的這些有請問 |
| 00:24:54,000 | 00:24:56,000 | 有公布批號嗎 |
| 00:24:56,000 | 00:24:58,000 | 你們公布了30個批號 |
| 00:24:58,000 | 00:25:00,000 | 在哪個批號之內 |
| 00:25:00,000 | 00:25:02,000 | 他沒有做成實用油脂 |
| 00:25:02,000 | 00:25:04,000 | 出貨啊不是出貨嗎 |
| 00:25:04,000 | 00:25:06,000 | 他沒有出貨啊 |
| 00:25:06,000 | 00:25:08,000 | 他沒有出貨啊 |
| 00:25:08,000 | 00:25:10,000 | 他就在中聯裡面沒有出貨 |
| 00:25:10,000 | 00:25:12,000 | 他還在草裡面 |
| 00:25:12,000 | 00:25:14,000 | 今天都還沒有做啊 |
| 00:25:14,000 | 00:25:16,000 | 所以他沒有批號啊 |
| 00:25:16,000 | 00:25:18,000 | 所以今天台糖是去他的油槽取樣本 |
| 00:25:18,000 | 00:25:20,000 | 他去油槽裡面 |
| 00:25:20,000 | 00:25:22,000 | 把他封了之後取樣本 |
| 00:25:22,000 | 00:25:24,000 | 然後驗了之後呢 |
| 00:25:24,000 | 00:25:26,000 | 他超出他的這個驗收標準 |
| 00:25:26,000 | 00:25:28,000 | 他就不驗收了 |
| 00:25:28,000 | 00:25:30,000 | 但是台糖扎扎實實 |
| 00:25:30,000 | 00:25:32,000 | 有掌握14.7 |
| 00:25:32,000 | 00:25:34,000 | 這個數字嘛 |
| 00:25:34,000 | 00:25:36,000 | 那食品業者 |
| 00:25:36,000 | 00:25:38,000 | 如果對於半成品的 |
| 00:25:38,000 | 00:25:40,000 | 這個安全疑慮之虞 |
| 00:25:40,000 | 00:25:42,000 | 他就要通報當地的主管機關 |
| 00:25:42,000 | 00:25:44,000 | 顯然台糖 |
| 00:25:44,000 | 00:25:46,000 | 他就是沒有通報 |
| 00:25:46,000 | 00:25:48,000 | 或雖然沒有到他這邊 |
| 00:25:48,000 | 00:25:50,000 | 但是他已經知道 |
| 00:25:50,000 | 00:25:52,000 | 通報的義務是他有沒有超出我們的標準 |
| 00:25:52,000 | 00:25:54,000 | 阿法條就是有之虞 |
| 00:25:54,000 | 00:25:56,000 | 奇怪你為什麼要超越法律呢 |
| 00:25:56,000 | 00:25:58,000 | 你比大法官還厲害耶 |
| 00:25:58,000 | 00:26:00,000 | 你不只解釋法律你還超越法律 |
| 00:26:00,000 | 00:26:02,000 | 食品安全衛生法第七條 |
| 00:26:02,000 | 00:26:04,000 | 已經說有危害健康 |
| 00:26:04,000 | 00:26:06,000 | 有危害衛生有危害安全之虞 |
| 00:26:06,000 | 00:26:08,000 | 至於兩個字有那麼難 |
| 00:26:08,000 | 00:26:10,000 | 讀懂嗎還我最後 |
| 00:26:10,000 | 00:26:12,000 | 你在一個炸豬排的工廠 |
| 00:26:12,000 | 00:26:14,000 | 看到有塊生肉 |
| 00:26:14,000 | 00:26:16,000 | 他有細緻理論不要去通報 |
| 00:26:16,000 | 00:26:18,000 | 豬排根本完全不能夠類比 |
| 00:26:18,000 | 00:26:20,000 | 如果你覺得你的阿東 |
| 00:26:20,000 | 00:26:22,000 | 在這邊不適合被請出來 |
| 00:26:22,000 | 00:26:24,000 | 你的豬排也不適合在這邊請出來 |
| 00:26:24,000 | 00:26:26,000 | 那我現在跟這個部長 |
| 00:26:26,000 | 00:26:28,000 | 講一句人民怒吼 |
| 00:26:28,000 | 00:26:30,000 | 這是725的事情 |
| 00:26:30,000 | 00:26:32,000 | 如果你們繼續荒腔走板 |
| 00:26:32,000 | 00:26:34,000 | 可能不是人民怒吼 |
| 00:26:34,000 | 00:26:36,000 | 我覺得可能就是人民暴動了 |
| 00:26:36,000 | 00:26:38,000 | 那部長我還是要跟你講 |
| 00:26:38,000 | 00:26:40,000 | 我最後要做一個總結 |
| 00:26:40,000 | 00:26:42,000 | 他們一直說七條第五項的產品 |
| 00:26:42,000 | 00:26:44,000 | 不包括半成品 |
| 00:26:44,000 | 00:26:46,000 | 所以半成品不是實用 |
| 00:26:46,000 | 00:26:48,000 | 所以不需要根據第七條第五項 |
| 00:26:48,000 | 00:26:50,000 | 來這個通報 |
| 00:26:50,000 | 00:26:52,000 | 那現在呢 |
| 00:26:52,000 | 00:26:54,000 | 其實不管是從文藝解釋目的性解釋 |
| 00:26:54,000 | 00:26:56,000 | 體系解釋 |
| 00:26:56,000 | 00:26:58,000 | 你們自己去看食安法 |
| 00:26:58,000 | 00:27:00,000 | 食安法產品跟食品 |
| 00:27:00,000 | 00:27:02,000 | 兩個字是完全混用的 |
| 00:27:02,000 | 00:27:04,000 | 那所以呢請不要再拿 |
| 00:27:04,000 | 00:27:06,000 | 七條第五項的產品 |
| 00:27:06,000 | 00:27:08,000 | 不包括半成品來做擋箭牌 |
| 00:27:08,000 | 00:27:10,000 | 擋不住之後請不要從 |
| 00:27:10,000 | 00:27:12,000 | 至於兩個字上下提手 |
| 00:27:12,000 | 00:27:14,000 | 至於兩個字代表的 |
| 00:27:14,000 | 00:27:16,000 | 就是不用嚴格的標準 |
| 00:27:16,000 | 00:27:18,000 | 所以不要在那邊提什麼本扁皮怎樣 |
| 00:27:18,000 | 00:27:20,000 | 本扁皮怎樣 |
| 00:27:20,000 | 00:27:22,000 | 請不要用這個當擋箭牌 |
| 00:27:22,000 | 00:27:24,000 | 謝謝 |