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許忠信 @ 第11屆第5會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:02,200 | 有請 陸委會 邱主委 |
| 00:00:06,900 | 00:00:07,900 | 徐委員好 |
| 00:00:09,060 | 00:00:11,480 | 今天 我們修 |
| 00:00:12,360 | 00:00:16,200 | 這個 兩岸關係條例93條之4 |
| 00:00:16,260 | 00:00:19,200 | 所以我針對這個問題 要來 |
| 00:00:19,200 | 00:00:21,840 | 跟各位 探討一個 |
| 00:00:21,840 | 00:00:24,160 | 陸配權益保障的問題 |
| 00:00:25,040 | 00:00:27,180 | 所以它會比較難 |
| 00:00:27,600 | 00:00:30,680 | 不是要故意刁難主委 而是要讓我們的法治 |
| 00:00:30,680 | 00:00:32,619 | 更精進 |
| 00:00:33,500 | 00:00:36,240 | 我國人民登記不動產 |
| 00:00:36,660 | 00:00:37,660 | 現在 |
| 00:00:38,060 | 00:00:40,760 | 根據我國法院多數的判決 |
| 00:00:41,100 | 00:00:44,420 | 如果建民登記的話 原則上 |
| 00:00:44,900 | 00:00:46,500 | 會是被允許的 |
| 00:00:46,980 | 00:00:50,720 | 但是 原住民的土地 |
| 00:00:50,920 | 00:00:53,940 | 如果非原住民 透過原住民 |
| 00:00:53,940 | 00:00:56,580 | 來建民登記 那這個 我們法院 |
| 00:00:56,620 | 00:00:57,720 | 法院判決是無效 |
| 00:00:58,220 | 00:01:00,379 | 這個多數的見解 現在是這樣 |
| 00:01:00,760 | 00:01:02,239 | 那我們現在 |
| 00:01:02,820 | 00:01:05,940 | 在兩岸關係條例69條 |
| 00:01:06,220 | 00:01:07,420 | 有規定 |
| 00:01:07,900 | 00:01:09,220 | 也就是說 |
| 00:01:11,320 | 00:01:15,160 | 大陸地區人民 不得取得 |
| 00:01:15,160 | 00:01:18,120 | 設定移轉不動產 |
| 00:01:18,120 | 00:01:21,240 | 以及其他投資行為 |
| 00:01:22,600 | 00:01:25,380 | 主委你不覺得這個其他投資行為 |
| 00:01:25,399 | 00:01:27,399 | 這個概念非常廣 變成 |
| 00:01:27,619 | 00:01:30,619 | 我現在用一個例子來請教主委 |
| 00:01:30,940 | 00:01:33,820 | 一個陸配嫁過來台灣三年 |
| 00:01:33,820 | 00:01:35,880 | 還沒有取得身份證之前 |
| 00:01:36,940 | 00:01:38,479 | 他去買股票 |
| 00:01:39,100 | 00:01:41,300 | 是不是這裡的投資行為 |
| 00:01:42,000 | 00:01:43,520 | 是 是嗎 |
| 00:01:44,000 | 00:01:46,960 | 所以這個很顯然太廣 |
| 00:01:47,240 | 00:01:49,979 | 那麼兩岸關係條例這樣一個 |
| 00:01:49,979 | 00:01:52,259 | 69條 禁止規定 |
| 00:01:52,260 | 00:01:55,260 | 他的效果的確 |
| 00:01:55,260 | 00:01:57,260 | 不是很明確說 |
| 00:01:57,260 | 00:02:00,260 | 他如果違反這個規定去取得不動產 |
| 00:02:00,260 | 00:02:02,260 | 他是否是無效 |
| 00:02:02,260 | 00:02:07,260 | 報委員要由我們主管機關許可 |
| 00:02:07,260 | 00:02:10,259 | 許可就可以 如果沒有許可的話 |
| 00:02:10,259 | 00:02:12,260 | 是否無效 |
| 00:02:12,260 | 00:02:15,260 | 我們根據民法71條 |
| 00:02:15,260 | 00:02:18,260 | 違反法律禁止之規定者 |
| 00:02:18,260 | 00:02:20,260 | 法律行為無效 是 |
| 00:02:20,260 | 00:02:23,260 | 根據71條其實可以得到無效的結果 |
| 00:02:23,260 | 00:02:25,260 | 只是不明確 |
| 00:02:25,260 | 00:02:27,260 | 那我們現在 |
| 00:02:27,260 | 00:02:30,260 | 兩岸條例94條 |
| 00:02:30,260 | 00:02:33,260 | 這個知識的修正案 |
| 00:02:33,260 | 00:02:35,260 | 修正草案 |
| 00:02:37,260 | 00:02:41,260 | 我們把它明確的講無效 |
| 00:02:41,260 | 00:02:44,260 | 本席暫同 因為本席完全接受 |
| 00:02:44,260 | 00:02:47,260 | 入資來炒作台灣的不動產 |
| 00:02:47,260 | 00:02:49,260 | 使得台灣的不動產 |
| 00:02:49,260 | 00:02:51,260 | 使得價格飆漲 |
| 00:02:51,260 | 00:02:54,260 | 也本席也完全反對 |
| 00:02:54,260 | 00:02:58,260 | 入資來控制我們台灣有國防安全 |
| 00:02:58,260 | 00:03:00,260 | 重要關鍵的土地 |
| 00:03:00,260 | 00:03:02,260 | 這個我都完全贊同 |
| 00:03:02,260 | 00:03:05,260 | 但是不能夠繳往過正 |
| 00:03:05,260 | 00:03:07,260 | 不能繳往過正 |
| 00:03:07,260 | 00:03:09,260 | 所以這個無效我同意 |
| 00:03:09,260 | 00:03:11,260 | 法緩 法禁 我也同意 |
| 00:03:11,260 | 00:03:15,260 | 但是各位看到我們94條知識的 |
| 00:03:15,260 | 00:03:17,260 | 修法理由 |
| 00:03:17,260 | 00:03:21,260 | 並沒有像你的書面報告裡面所講的 |
| 00:03:21,260 | 00:03:23,260 | 它的立法理由為何 |
| 00:03:23,260 | 00:03:26,260 | 您的書面報告裡面講說 |
| 00:03:26,260 | 00:03:31,260 | 因為為了要我國不動產市場 |
| 00:03:31,260 | 00:03:34,260 | 以及國家安全戰略防禦 |
| 00:03:34,260 | 00:03:36,260 | 造成漏洞的避免 |
| 00:03:36,260 | 00:03:40,260 | 為了避免對我國安全戰略 |
| 00:03:40,260 | 00:03:44,260 | 有重要性的土地 |
| 00:03:45,260 | 00:03:46,260 | 產生漏洞 |
| 00:03:46,260 | 00:03:49,260 | 以及我國不動產市場 |
| 00:03:49,260 | 00:03:53,260 | 這是你的書面報告裡面講的 |
| 00:03:53,260 | 00:03:56,260 | 不受入資的炒作 |
| 00:03:56,260 | 00:03:59,260 | 那你的書面報告裡面有 |
| 00:03:59,260 | 00:04:01,260 | 我贊成 |
| 00:04:01,260 | 00:04:04,260 | 但是就94條知識的草案裡面 |
| 00:04:04,260 | 00:04:07,260 | 也是武力法委員所提出的 |
| 00:04:07,260 | 00:04:09,260 | 民進黨委員所連署的 |
| 00:04:09,260 | 00:04:11,260 | 修正草案的理由裡面 |
| 00:04:11,260 | 00:04:15,260 | 並沒有您所講的這麼理由 |
| 00:04:15,260 | 00:04:17,260 | 這樣適否允當 |
| 00:04:17,260 | 00:04:20,260 | 也就是說您書面報告有啦 |
| 00:04:20,260 | 00:04:22,260 | 我贊同 |
| 00:04:22,260 | 00:04:26,260 | 但是在修法理由裡面並沒有這樣 |
| 00:04:26,260 | 00:04:30,260 | 那因為本席時常要出外交任務 |
| 00:04:30,260 | 00:04:31,260 | 國會外交任務 |
| 00:04:31,260 | 00:04:33,260 | 所以時常沒辦法來審法調 |
| 00:04:33,260 | 00:04:35,260 | 所以在這裡先跟主委報告 |
| 00:04:35,260 | 00:04:36,260 | 不敢 |
| 00:04:36,260 | 00:04:40,260 | 這個您書面報告的理由要放進去 |
| 00:04:40,260 | 00:04:43,260 | 也就是說要限縮 |
| 00:04:43,260 | 00:04:46,260 | 如果他來購買的投資的 |
| 00:04:46,260 | 00:04:50,260 | 就明登記的是無關重要的土地 |
| 00:04:50,260 | 00:04:53,260 | 我們沒必要去限制他 |
| 00:04:53,260 | 00:04:55,260 | 沒必要去限制他 |
| 00:04:57,260 | 00:05:00,260 | 所以我剛才提到 |
| 00:05:00,260 | 00:05:01,260 | 陸配駕過來三年 |
| 00:05:01,260 | 00:05:04,260 | 還沒有取得身份證之前 |
| 00:05:04,260 | 00:05:07,260 | 我們對他的限制這麼的多 |
| 00:05:07,260 | 00:05:09,260 | 我舉一個例子好了 |
| 00:05:09,260 | 00:05:11,260 | 陸配駕過來三年 |
| 00:05:11,260 | 00:05:13,260 | 先生去世了 |
| 00:05:13,260 | 00:05:15,260 | 還沒有小孩 |
| 00:05:15,260 | 00:05:17,260 | 那先生的財產不動產 |
| 00:05:17,260 | 00:05:19,260 | 他要繼承 |
| 00:05:19,260 | 00:05:21,260 | 那也根據69條 |
| 00:05:21,260 | 00:05:23,260 | 跟我們這94條的修法 |
| 00:05:23,260 | 00:05:25,260 | 他還是不能繼承 |
| 00:05:26,260 | 00:05:29,260 | 這個變成我們兩岸人民關係條例 |
| 00:05:29,260 | 00:05:32,260 | 限制了這個陸配的繼承權 |
| 00:05:32,260 | 00:05:34,260 | 這是我允當 |
| 00:05:34,260 | 00:05:36,260 | 主委您覺得呢 |
| 00:05:36,260 | 00:05:37,260 | 是 |
| 00:05:37,260 | 00:05:39,260 | 謝謝委員 |
| 00:05:39,260 | 00:05:42,260 | 剛剛委員講修正的更加明確 |
| 00:05:42,260 | 00:05:45,260 | 那我們也表示贊同 |
| 00:05:45,260 | 00:05:49,260 | 剛剛您有提到陸配 |
| 00:05:49,260 | 00:05:52,260 | 那他還是大陸人士 |
| 00:05:52,260 | 00:05:56,260 | 那他要購買我們的房地產 |
| 00:05:56,260 | 00:05:59,260 | 還是要經過主管機關的許可 |
| 00:05:59,260 | 00:06:01,260 | 那如果說 |
| 00:06:01,260 | 00:06:02,260 | 繼承呢 |
| 00:06:02,260 | 00:06:04,260 | 看他有沒有取得 |
| 00:06:04,260 | 00:06:05,260 | 取得也是繼承 |
| 00:06:05,260 | 00:06:06,260 | 居留 |
| 00:06:06,260 | 00:06:08,260 | 是可以 |
| 00:06:08,260 | 00:06:10,260 | 你們是因為他有居留權 |
| 00:06:10,260 | 00:06:12,260 | 所以經過主管機關許可 |
| 00:06:12,260 | 00:06:14,260 | 但是 |
| 00:06:14,260 | 00:06:16,260 | 我們民法上的繼承權 |
| 00:06:16,260 | 00:06:18,260 | 是不必主管機關的許可 |
| 00:06:18,260 | 00:06:20,260 | 因為他的先生去世 |
| 00:06:20,260 | 00:06:21,260 | 他駕過來三年 |
| 00:06:21,260 | 00:06:22,260 | 先生去世 |
| 00:06:22,260 | 00:06:24,260 | 他依法就有繼承權 |
| 00:06:24,260 | 00:06:27,260 | 而我們這裡變成要 |
| 00:06:27,260 | 00:06:29,260 | 經過主管機關的許可 |
| 00:06:29,260 | 00:06:31,260 | 這樣對他們的權益保障 |
| 00:06:31,260 | 00:06:34,260 | 是 梁小利也是尊重他們的繼承權 |
| 00:06:34,260 | 00:06:36,260 | 但是要經過你們的許可 |
| 00:06:36,260 | 00:06:37,260 | 不用許可 |
| 00:06:37,260 | 00:06:39,260 | 這個就是民法相關的規定 |
| 00:06:39,260 | 00:06:40,260 | 我們適用 |
| 00:06:40,260 | 00:06:43,260 | 我們說不得取得 |
| 00:06:43,260 | 00:06:45,260 | 69條說不得取得 |
| 00:06:45,260 | 00:06:47,260 | 不得取得包括不能繼承 |
| 00:06:47,260 | 00:06:50,260 | 繼承可以 |
| 00:06:50,260 | 00:06:53,260 | 所以你們限縮解釋取得不包括繼承 |
| 00:06:53,260 | 00:06:54,260 | 是 |
| 00:06:54,260 | 00:06:57,260 | 那這是你們行政機關的解釋 |
| 00:06:57,260 | 00:07:00,260 | 法院不一定接受你們的解釋 |
| 00:07:00,260 | 00:07:02,260 | 我們是三權分立的國家 |
| 00:07:02,260 | 00:07:06,260 | 所以我們國家法院不一定遵從主管機關的解釋 |
| 00:07:06,260 | 00:07:11,260 | 所以這個是我們這次修法要一起處理 |
| 00:07:11,260 | 00:07:16,260 | 應該要把繼承排除 |
| 00:07:16,260 | 00:07:21,260 | 因為他根本沒有炒作我們不動產的情形 |
| 00:07:21,260 | 00:07:25,260 | 也不大可能去繼承到有國家安全重要性的土地 |
| 00:07:25,260 | 00:07:29,260 | 是 委員我們現行法律對於陸配 |
| 00:07:29,260 | 00:07:32,260 | 陸配就已經可以繼承了 |
| 00:07:32,260 | 00:07:34,260 | 不用主管機關許可 |
| 00:07:34,260 | 00:07:38,260 | 所以你們把取得限縮解釋不包括繼承 |
| 00:07:38,260 | 00:07:40,260 | 對應該是這樣 |
| 00:07:40,260 | 00:07:42,260 | 那這個是你們主管機關的解釋 |
| 00:07:42,260 | 00:07:43,260 | 我跟主委提醒 |
| 00:07:43,260 | 00:07:44,260 | 是 |
| 00:07:44,260 | 00:07:45,260 | 法院不一定接受你們的解釋 |
| 00:07:45,260 | 00:07:47,260 | 我們是三權分立的國家 |
| 00:07:47,260 | 00:07:49,260 | 剛才我們第一排就跟各位講上 |
| 00:07:49,260 | 00:07:52,260 | 我們原則上都是要看法院的判決 |
| 00:07:52,260 | 00:07:54,260 | 是 |
| 00:07:55,260 | 00:07:58,260 | 我們原住民保留地 |
| 00:07:58,260 | 00:08:01,260 | 現在要修草案 |
| 00:08:01,260 | 00:08:03,260 | 還沒有通過 |
| 00:08:03,260 | 00:08:04,260 | 他們的確 |
| 00:08:04,260 | 00:08:06,260 | 屆民登記 |
| 00:08:06,260 | 00:08:08,260 | 明確把它歸清成無效 |
| 00:08:08,260 | 00:08:11,260 | 跟現行的法院的判決一樣 |
| 00:08:11,260 | 00:08:17,260 | 那他們原住民的土地之所以禁止 |
| 00:08:17,260 | 00:08:18,260 | 讓它無效 |
| 00:08:18,260 | 00:08:19,260 | 人家他有理由 |
| 00:08:19,260 | 00:08:21,260 | 原住民他們原委會提出來的 |
| 00:08:21,260 | 00:08:24,260 | 他說這個是規避了原住民 |
| 00:08:24,260 | 00:08:27,260 | 身份的規定 |
| 00:08:27,260 | 00:08:28,260 | 所以無效 |
| 00:08:28,260 | 00:08:31,260 | 人家他們有講無效的理由 |
| 00:08:31,260 | 00:08:34,260 | 是因為他規避了原住民身份 |
| 00:08:34,260 | 00:08:35,260 | 他沒有原住民身份 |
| 00:08:35,260 | 00:08:38,260 | 卻去用原住民身份的人去取得土地 |
| 00:08:38,260 | 00:08:40,260 | 屆民登記無效 |
| 00:08:40,260 | 00:08:42,260 | 原委會都可以提出這樣 |
| 00:08:42,260 | 00:08:45,260 | 有水準的法案的草案 |
| 00:08:45,260 | 00:08:46,260 | 我們陸委會 |
| 00:08:46,260 | 00:08:48,260 | 在這一次 |
| 00:08:48,260 | 00:08:50,260 | 立法委員的修法裡面 |
| 00:08:50,260 | 00:08:53,260 | 應該要加以稍微注意 |
| 00:08:53,260 | 00:08:54,260 | 稍微注意 |
| 00:08:54,260 | 00:08:55,260 | 第二點 |
| 00:08:55,260 | 00:08:58,260 | 我們93條之四的修法說明 |
| 00:08:58,260 | 00:09:02,260 | 也就剛才我們武力法委員的修法說明 |
| 00:09:02,260 | 00:09:06,260 | 他稱大陸地區人民 |
| 00:09:06,260 | 00:09:10,260 | 我們69條的法定用語是大陸地區人民 |
| 00:09:10,260 | 00:09:14,260 | 而主委您剛才也是用大陸人民 |
| 00:09:14,260 | 00:09:15,260 | 對不對 |
| 00:09:15,260 | 00:09:18,260 | 我們都會用法定的大陸地區人民 |
| 00:09:18,260 | 00:09:19,260 | 沒錯 |
| 00:09:19,260 | 00:09:21,260 | 那我們這個修法的草案裡面 |
| 00:09:21,260 | 00:09:24,260 | 卻用中國人民 |
| 00:09:24,260 | 00:09:28,260 | 如果修法草案的說明這樣通過 |
| 00:09:28,260 | 00:09:31,260 | 變成我們立法院所通過的 |
| 00:09:31,260 | 00:09:33,260 | 修法說明裡面 |
| 00:09:33,260 | 00:09:35,260 | 有中國人民這個用語 |
| 00:09:35,260 | 00:09:37,260 | 這樣是否妥當 |
| 00:09:37,260 | 00:09:40,260 | 我們尊重委員的提案 |
| 00:09:40,260 | 00:09:45,260 | 今天我們審武力法委員這個法案 |
| 00:09:45,260 | 00:09:46,260 | 他的精神在於 |
| 00:09:46,260 | 00:09:49,260 | 防範中國大陸資金藉由人頭 |
| 00:09:49,260 | 00:09:50,260 | 這個精神我贊同 |
| 00:09:50,260 | 00:09:51,260 | 來規避審查 |
| 00:09:51,260 | 00:09:53,260 | 然後來炒作保留地 |
| 00:09:53,260 | 00:09:56,260 | 但是他在立法說明裡面 |
| 00:09:56,260 | 00:09:59,260 | 用中國人民這不是法定用語 |
| 00:09:59,260 | 00:10:02,260 | 不應該出現在立法說明裡面 |
| 00:10:02,260 | 00:10:06,260 | 我們尊重委員的提案 |
| 00:10:06,260 | 00:10:08,260 | 這個跟我們行政局講 |
| 00:10:08,260 | 00:10:10,260 | 本席在這裡 |
| 00:10:10,260 | 00:10:12,260 | 跟本院報告 |
| 00:10:12,260 | 00:10:15,260 | 我們要用法定用語 |
| 00:10:15,260 | 00:10:17,260 | 還有另外一個 |
| 00:10:17,260 | 00:10:20,260 | 立法說明裡面講到 |
| 00:10:20,260 | 00:10:26,260 | 提供人頭協助登記 |
| 00:10:26,260 | 00:10:29,260 | 這個在一般用語口頭講話可以 |
| 00:10:29,260 | 00:10:31,260 | 在立法說明裡面 |
| 00:10:31,260 | 00:10:34,260 | 用提供人頭協助登記 |
| 00:10:34,260 | 00:10:37,260 | 不是很恐怖嗎 |
| 00:10:37,260 | 00:10:39,260 | 不會很恐怖嗎 |
| 00:10:39,260 | 00:10:42,260 | 而我們立法院的修法的說明 |
| 00:10:42,260 | 00:10:45,260 | 這麼的一般化 |
| 00:10:45,260 | 00:10:48,260 | 通俗 |
| 00:10:48,260 | 00:10:50,260 | 這是否引擋 |
| 00:10:50,260 | 00:10:52,260 | 是就是透過建民登記 |
| 00:10:52,260 | 00:10:55,260 | 這個我們再跟委員來溝通 |
| 00:10:55,260 | 00:10:58,260 | 中國人民這個也要溝通 |
| 00:10:58,260 | 00:11:00,260 | 因為兩岸人民關係條例是以 |
| 00:11:00,260 | 00:11:02,260 | 大陸地區 |
| 00:11:02,260 | 00:11:03,260 | 台灣地區 |
| 00:11:03,260 | 00:11:05,260 | 大陸地區人民 |
| 00:11:05,260 | 00:11:07,260 | 為基本的架構 |
| 00:11:07,260 | 00:11:10,260 | 所以我們用中國人民 |
| 00:11:10,260 | 00:11:12,260 | 陸配 |
| 00:11:12,260 | 00:11:14,260 | 這個坦白講 |
| 00:11:14,260 | 00:11:16,260 | 不親切 |
| 00:11:16,260 | 00:11:17,260 | 這不親切 |
| 00:11:17,260 | 00:11:19,260 | 我覺得不應該這樣子 |
| 00:11:19,260 | 00:11:21,260 | 不應該這樣子 |
| 00:11:21,260 | 00:11:24,260 | 我們應該按照我們現在的法定用語 |
| 00:11:24,260 | 00:11:27,260 | 在立法說明裡面來加以說明 |
| 00:11:27,260 | 00:11:28,260 | 如果是行政院版 |
| 00:11:28,260 | 00:11:30,260 | 就會用法定用語 |
| 00:11:30,260 | 00:11:32,260 | 但是如果這個版通過 |
| 00:11:32,260 | 00:11:34,260 | 就會成為本院的官方文書 |
| 00:11:34,260 | 00:11:36,260 | 將來我們為 |
| 00:11:36,260 | 00:11:38,260 | 這個研讀這方面的法律 |
| 00:11:38,260 | 00:11:41,260 | 就會看到中國人民這四個字 |
| 00:11:41,260 | 00:11:43,260 | 相當不當 |
| 00:11:43,260 | 00:11:45,260 | 有關文字的部分 |
| 00:11:45,260 | 00:11:47,260 | 我們也會跟委員來溝通 |
| 00:11:47,260 | 00:11:49,260 | 所以提供人頭部分 |
| 00:11:49,260 | 00:11:51,260 | 我的人頭可以提供 |
| 00:11:51,260 | 00:11:53,260 | 不能在說明裡面 |
| 00:11:53,260 | 00:11:55,260 | 用提供人頭 |
| 00:11:55,260 | 00:11:57,260 | 只要本席在立法院的時候 |
| 00:11:57,260 | 00:11:59,260 | 我不希望有這種法律通過 |
| 00:11:59,260 | 00:12:02,260 | 我會被法學界抨擊 |
| 00:12:02,260 | 00:12:05,260 | 我沒有盡到我法學者的職責 |
| 00:12:05,260 | 00:12:07,260 | 拜託主委 |
| 00:12:07,260 | 00:12:09,260 | 謝謝許中信 |