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陳菁徽 @ 第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:07,000 | 謝謝主席 |
| 00:00:07,000 | 00:00:10,000 | 謝謝各位官員的出席 還有委員的出席 |
| 00:00:10,000 | 00:00:15,000 | 我想請石部長 江署長 還有徐副主任 |
| 00:00:15,000 | 00:00:19,000 | 請石部長 江署長 徐署長 |
| 00:00:19,000 | 00:00:22,000 | 好 委員好 |
| 00:00:22,000 | 00:00:26,000 | 好 當然我覺得你們捲入這個風波啦 |
| 00:00:26,000 | 00:00:28,000 | 我也感到非常遺憾 |
| 00:00:28,000 | 00:00:31,000 | 如果有議員已經告發你們瀆職 |
| 00:00:31,000 | 00:00:36,000 | 有石部長 有江署長 還有昨天加了台唐的董事長 |
| 00:00:36,000 | 00:00:39,000 | 那議員昨天已經保全了證據 |
| 00:00:39,000 | 00:00:43,000 | 比如說會議的影音檔 或者是監視器 |
| 00:00:43,000 | 00:00:46,000 | 那之後呢 這些基層的人員 |
| 00:00:46,000 | 00:00:49,000 | 今天名字有被披露在報紙上 |
| 00:00:49,000 | 00:00:52,000 | 應該也會被一一叫去詢問 |
| 00:00:52,000 | 00:00:54,000 | 關於這個會議的內容 |
| 00:00:54,000 | 00:00:57,000 | 那再來應該也會傳在羈押裡面 |
| 00:00:57,000 | 00:01:00,000 | 這個總經理 還有廠長去做詢問 |
| 00:01:00,000 | 00:01:04,000 | 所以今天這個議員也在看這段質詢 |
| 00:01:04,000 | 00:01:06,000 | 今天的答詢非常重要 |
| 00:01:06,000 | 00:01:10,000 | 一定要誠實的面對國人 誠實的報告 |
| 00:01:10,000 | 00:01:12,000 | 那我們先請江署長 |
| 00:01:15,000 | 00:01:16,000 | 委員好 |
| 00:01:16,000 | 00:01:17,000 | 江署長 因為您上週不在 |
| 00:01:17,000 | 00:01:20,000 | 所以石部長幫您回覆了非常多的問題 |
| 00:01:20,000 | 00:01:24,000 | 可是從我們今天揭露這個的資訊啦 |
| 00:01:24,000 | 00:01:25,000 | 報紙上看到的資訊 |
| 00:01:25,000 | 00:01:28,000 | 我們發現您才是這場會議的主持人 |
| 00:01:28,000 | 00:01:32,000 | 這場會議是決定了這個20%以上下架 |
| 00:01:32,000 | 00:01:35,000 | 20%以上可以保留 |
| 00:01:35,000 | 00:01:39,000 | 那另外呢 石部長也在上週幫您回答說 |
| 00:01:39,000 | 00:01:43,000 | 這個業者是有在這場會議中討論復工 |
| 00:01:43,000 | 00:01:45,000 | 那我想問一下 |
| 00:01:45,000 | 00:01:49,000 | 因為石部長上禮拜是回覆這個會議分上下長次 |
| 00:01:49,000 | 00:01:52,000 | 可是我們今天所有人印象中 |
| 00:01:52,000 | 00:01:55,000 | 都停留在會議分上下長次 |
| 00:01:55,000 | 00:01:58,000 | 這個哪邊看得出來分上下長次 |
| 00:01:58,000 | 00:02:02,000 | 報告委員 這個會議分成兩個議題 |
| 00:02:02,000 | 00:02:06,000 | 第一個是檢視整個中聯這次的問題 |
| 00:02:06,000 | 00:02:10,000 | 所以我們請了專家來在油品的部分 |
| 00:02:10,000 | 00:02:12,000 | 製程的部分做進一步的說明 |
| 00:02:12,000 | 00:02:16,000 | 那第二個部分呢 就是針對我們根據106年 |
| 00:02:16,000 | 00:02:20,000 | 下架回收的產品 並且下架階層 |
| 00:02:20,000 | 00:02:24,000 | 我們是定在 因為是衛生安全標準 |
| 00:02:24,000 | 00:02:26,000 | 所以是屬於第八類 |
| 00:02:26,000 | 00:02:28,000 | 所以是在下架在一層 |
| 00:02:28,000 | 00:02:33,000 | 就是製程中聯製程扶壽扶茂太山的油品的部分 |
| 00:02:33,000 | 00:02:37,000 | 所以在7月 我們確定了第一層的 |
| 00:02:37,000 | 00:02:39,000 | 第一層我們看到有不同的聲音 |
| 00:02:39,000 | 00:02:42,000 | 尤其7月3號媒體上面其實在討論 |
| 00:02:42,000 | 00:02:44,000 | 我們很清楚的 我們對於 |
| 00:02:44,000 | 00:02:46,000 | 其實江市長 |
| 00:02:46,000 | 00:02:49,000 | 所以我們再重新思考第二個議題 |
| 00:02:49,000 | 00:02:54,000 | 你只需要問出你會議到底有沒有分上下兩場 |
| 00:02:54,000 | 00:02:56,000 | 因為石部長上週幫你回答 |
| 00:02:56,000 | 00:02:58,000 | 會議分上下兩場 |
| 00:02:58,000 | 00:03:01,000 | 應該是說 我們會議裡面有兩個重要議題 |
| 00:03:01,000 | 00:03:03,000 | 上面第一個議題是 |
| 00:03:03,000 | 00:03:05,000 | 我們去中聯相關的 |
| 00:03:05,000 | 00:03:07,000 | 他本身的製程的是不是有議題 |
| 00:03:07,000 | 00:03:09,000 | 專家來協助 |
| 00:03:09,000 | 00:03:11,000 | 下半場我們針對說 |
| 00:03:11,000 | 00:03:14,000 | 第一層下架之下 是不是要往下走 |
| 00:03:14,000 | 00:03:15,000 | 所以這邊特別提到 |
| 00:03:15,000 | 00:03:17,000 | 廠商幾點離開 |
| 00:03:17,000 | 00:03:18,000 | 廠商幾點離開 |
| 00:03:18,000 | 00:03:21,000 | 這個會議從3點開到5點 |
| 00:03:21,000 | 00:03:23,000 | 廠商幾點離開 |
| 00:03:23,000 | 00:03:25,000 | 廠商應該是有在我們現場 |
| 00:03:25,000 | 00:03:26,000 | 可是在我們第二層的 |
| 00:03:26,000 | 00:03:28,000 | 廠商全程都在現場 |
| 00:03:28,000 | 00:03:29,000 | 沒有 |
| 00:03:29,000 | 00:03:32,000 | 廠商是在我們的會議討論的過程當中 |
| 00:03:32,000 | 00:03:34,000 | 他進入我們的會議的議場 |
| 00:03:34,000 | 00:03:36,000 | 做完說明之後呢 |
| 00:03:36,000 | 00:03:38,000 | 我們繼續在討論後續的時候 |
| 00:03:38,000 | 00:03:40,000 | 沒有讓廠商做任何的發言 |
| 00:03:40,000 | 00:03:43,000 | 我們是在做第二層的一些思考 |
| 00:03:43,000 | 00:03:45,000 | 該如何去做大的討論 |
| 00:03:45,000 | 00:03:46,000 | 你只要告訴我們 |
| 00:03:46,000 | 00:03:49,000 | 因為你剛剛時事長也講得很輕鬆 |
| 00:03:49,000 | 00:03:52,000 | 他今天就會公佈全部的會議記錄 |
| 00:03:52,000 | 00:03:54,000 | 王毓民委員要求他 |
| 00:03:54,000 | 00:03:55,000 | 在今天委員會結束以前 |
| 00:03:55,000 | 00:03:57,000 | 印出給所有的委員 |
| 00:03:57,000 | 00:03:59,000 | 所有的國人 |
| 00:03:59,000 | 00:04:01,000 | 所以你沒有什麼好隱瞞的了 |
| 00:04:01,000 | 00:04:02,000 | 你只要告訴我們 |
| 00:04:02,000 | 00:04:06,000 | 廠商幾點到幾點在現場 |
| 00:04:06,000 | 00:04:08,000 | 我們現在很明顯看到紀錄上 |
| 00:04:08,000 | 00:04:10,000 | 有委員會你們的同仁 |
| 00:04:10,000 | 00:04:12,000 | 還有食藥署的副署長 |
| 00:04:12,000 | 00:04:15,000 | 還有食品組的十幾位同仁 |
| 00:04:15,000 | 00:04:18,000 | 相信這些人很快就可以回憶起來 |
| 00:04:18,000 | 00:04:20,000 | 廠商幾點到幾點在現場 |
| 00:04:20,000 | 00:04:23,000 | 廠商有沒有聽到你們在討論 |
| 00:04:23,000 | 00:04:27,000 | 20%上架下架的原則 |
| 00:04:27,000 | 00:04:28,000 | 跟委員做報告 |
| 00:04:28,000 | 00:04:30,000 | 因為這整個記錄是透明的 |
| 00:04:30,000 | 00:04:32,000 | 我們待會今天部長也承諾 |
| 00:04:32,000 | 00:04:33,000 | 其實你現在 |
| 00:04:33,000 | 00:04:35,000 | 所以我等於是說他 |
| 00:04:35,000 | 00:04:39,000 | 我等一下尋答結束前 |
| 00:04:39,000 | 00:04:41,000 | 你告訴我就可以 |
| 00:04:41,000 | 00:04:43,000 | 就可以因為上禮拜時部長 |
| 00:04:43,000 | 00:04:45,000 | 他應該是在這個會議 |
| 00:04:45,000 | 00:04:47,000 | 整個會議的過程中 |
| 00:04:47,000 | 00:04:48,000 | 我們結束的時候 |
| 00:04:48,000 | 00:04:49,000 | 他其實有在現場的 |
| 00:04:49,000 | 00:04:52,000 | 他但是沒有進入任何的討論 |
| 00:04:52,000 | 00:04:53,000 | 有關於我們第二階層 |
| 00:04:53,000 | 00:04:54,000 | 好啦很明顯了 |
| 00:04:54,000 | 00:04:57,000 | 所以廠商跟著你們到會議結束 |
| 00:04:57,000 | 00:04:59,000 | 徐副也是這樣看到的嗎 |
| 00:04:59,000 | 00:05:01,000 | 徐副主任 |
| 00:05:01,000 | 00:05:03,000 | 廠商從頭到尾都跟你們在一起 |
| 00:05:03,000 | 00:05:05,000 | 你們在決策的時候 |
| 00:05:05,000 | 00:05:06,000 | 他們也都聽到了 |
| 00:05:06,000 | 00:05:07,000 | 只是他們不能發言 |
| 00:05:07,000 | 00:05:09,000 | 是這樣嗎徐副主任 |
| 00:05:09,000 | 00:05:10,000 | 廠商都在 |
| 00:05:10,000 | 00:05:11,000 | 全程都在 |
| 00:05:11,000 | 00:05:14,000 | 他進來之後全都在 |
| 00:05:14,000 | 00:05:16,000 | 那他沒有發言 |
| 00:05:16,000 | 00:05:18,000 | 但是我們那個會議是建議 |
| 00:05:18,000 | 00:05:20,000 | 並不是決策 |
| 00:05:21,000 | 00:05:23,000 | 所以時部長 |
| 00:05:23,000 | 00:05:24,000 | 你害到你同事了 |
| 00:05:24,000 | 00:05:28,000 | 你上禮拜說廠商中間請他離開 |
| 00:05:28,000 | 00:05:30,000 | 現在旁邊兩個一個主持會議 |
| 00:05:30,000 | 00:05:31,000 | 一個參加會議的人說 |
| 00:05:31,000 | 00:05:34,000 | 廠商全程都在 |
| 00:05:34,000 | 00:05:37,000 | 那我們再問江署長 |
| 00:05:37,000 | 00:05:39,000 | 好我跟委員說明 |
| 00:05:39,000 | 00:05:41,000 | 我要問江署長 |
| 00:05:41,000 | 00:05:44,000 | 江署長你幾月幾日知道 |
| 00:05:44,000 | 00:05:48,000 | 台糖的這個事件14.8PPB |
| 00:05:48,000 | 00:05:50,000 | 你幾月幾日知道的 |
| 00:05:51,000 | 00:05:54,000 | 我的印象是在7月 |
| 00:05:54,000 | 00:05:56,000 | 應該是7月十幾號 |
| 00:05:56,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 加進15號以後 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:05:59,000 | 約這個時間 |
| 00:05:59,000 | 00:06:01,000 | 是因為我們的同仁們 |
| 00:06:01,000 | 00:06:03,000 | 再次去進入台糖 |
| 00:06:03,000 | 00:06:06,000 | 進入中聯去看他所有的油 |
| 00:06:06,000 | 00:06:08,000 | 去看所有油的時候 |
| 00:06:08,000 | 00:06:09,000 | 我們調查 |
| 00:06:09,000 | 00:06:13,000 | 7月初其實就已經下架了之後 |
| 00:06:13,000 | 00:06:14,000 | 我們去做調查 |
| 00:06:14,000 | 00:06:16,000 | 所以參加調查之前 |
| 00:06:16,000 | 00:06:17,000 | 我們也做了調查 |
| 00:06:17,000 | 00:06:19,000 | 所以你們7月十幾號 |
| 00:06:19,000 | 00:06:20,000 | 就已經知道台糖 |
| 00:06:20,000 | 00:06:23,000 | 有這一批超標7倍的油 |
| 00:06:23,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 這個這樣子說 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:26,000 | 這個油剛才提到 |
| 00:06:26,000 | 00:06:27,000 | 我剛才後面認識的 |
| 00:06:27,000 | 00:06:29,000 | 很像有那個初交原油 |
| 00:06:29,000 | 00:06:30,000 | 那兩個是長得不太一樣 |
| 00:06:30,000 | 00:06:31,000 | 沒關係啦 |
| 00:06:31,000 | 00:06:32,000 | 所以我的意思是說 |
| 00:06:32,000 | 00:06:35,000 | 7月中你就知道有這個油 |
| 00:06:35,000 | 00:06:37,000 | 你8月1號還要叫大家 |
| 00:06:37,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 去問高雄市政府 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:39,000 | 是什麼意思 |
| 00:06:40,000 | 00:06:41,000 | 我說的意思是說 |
| 00:06:41,000 | 00:06:43,000 | 因為這個油 |
| 00:06:43,000 | 00:06:45,000 | 並不是我們在管制的油 |
| 00:06:45,000 | 00:06:47,000 | 所以我不曉得這個油 |
| 00:06:47,000 | 00:06:48,000 | 後來它的去向在 |
| 00:06:48,000 | 00:06:50,000 | 我們後來確定它是在 |
| 00:06:50,000 | 00:06:51,000 | 原來的油槽裡面 |
| 00:06:51,000 | 00:06:52,000 | 還有1000多噸 |
| 00:06:52,000 | 00:06:54,000 | 都在裡面沒有移動 |
| 00:06:54,000 | 00:06:56,000 | 這是我們後面才了解才知道 |
| 00:06:56,000 | 00:06:59,000 | 我們了解的是油是成為成品 |
| 00:06:59,000 | 00:07:01,000 | 油品裡面的30P的油 |
| 00:07:01,000 | 00:07:03,000 | 4到6月的我們很清楚 |
| 00:07:03,000 | 00:07:06,000 | 所以第一上面的油是不太一樣的 |
| 00:07:06,000 | 00:07:07,000 | 其實這個邏輯很清楚 |
| 00:07:07,000 | 00:07:09,000 | 您8月1號的時候認為 |
| 00:07:09,000 | 00:07:11,000 | 要問高雄市政府嗎 |
| 00:07:11,000 | 00:07:13,000 | 表示您認為高雄市政府 |
| 00:07:13,000 | 00:07:16,000 | 應該是這個您後來不知道 |
| 00:07:16,000 | 00:07:18,000 | 去向的油的主管機關 |
| 00:07:18,000 | 00:07:19,000 | 不然您不會第一時間 |
| 00:07:19,000 | 00:07:22,000 | 食藥署的回覆給媒體是 |
| 00:07:22,000 | 00:07:24,000 | 請媒體去問高雄市政府 |
| 00:07:24,000 | 00:07:25,000 | 我跟委員報告 |
| 00:07:25,000 | 00:07:27,000 | 這個不能就這樣子說 |
| 00:07:27,000 | 00:07:28,000 | 因為這件事情 |
| 00:07:28,000 | 00:07:31,000 | 台糖也並沒有跟我們講 |
| 00:07:31,000 | 00:07:32,000 | 我們也不清楚這個油 |
| 00:07:32,000 | 00:07:33,000 | 到底在哪裡 |
| 00:07:33,000 | 00:07:35,000 | 所以它也不屬於這個範圍 |
| 00:07:35,000 | 00:07:37,000 | 我們的管理的範圍內 |
| 00:07:37,000 | 00:07:38,000 | 所以跟委員們特別澄清 |
| 00:07:38,000 | 00:07:40,000 | 剛剛徐府主任有提到說 |
| 00:07:40,000 | 00:07:44,000 | 這場會議所有的中聯關係人全部在場 |
| 00:07:44,000 | 00:07:45,000 | 專家說真的討論 |
| 00:07:45,000 | 00:07:48,000 | 但是討論出來他說是一個建議 |
| 00:07:48,000 | 00:07:49,000 | 並不是決策 |
| 00:07:49,000 | 00:07:51,000 | 剛剛徐府主任講的非常清楚 |
| 00:07:51,000 | 00:07:54,000 | 最後做出20%以上 |
| 00:07:54,000 | 00:07:58,000 | 要下架的決策是誰做的 |
| 00:07:58,000 | 00:07:59,000 | 江署長 |
| 00:07:59,000 | 00:08:00,000 | 誰做的 |
| 00:08:00,000 | 00:08:02,000 | 因為您是主持這個會議的人 |
| 00:08:02,000 | 00:08:05,000 | 我想專家會議裡面我們邀請來 |
| 00:08:05,000 | 00:08:09,000 | 根據我們知道的整個的各國的 |
| 00:08:09,000 | 00:08:11,000 | 其實跟我們一樣嚴格的韓國跟歐盟 |
| 00:08:11,000 | 00:08:15,000 | 面對油品在這一類是同樣的做法 |
| 00:08:15,000 | 00:08:17,000 | 你只要告訴我誰決策的 |
| 00:08:17,000 | 00:08:20,000 | 所以我們在第二層是特殊的情形下 |
| 00:08:20,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 是誰決策 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:24,000 | 這些都已經大家很熟了 |
| 00:08:24,000 | 00:08:25,000 | 誰決策 |
| 00:08:25,000 | 00:08:28,000 | 整個專家給予建議完之後 |
| 00:08:28,000 | 00:08:30,000 | 我對於會議的結論的時候 |
| 00:08:30,000 | 00:08:31,000 | 我有做猜測 |
| 00:08:31,000 | 00:08:34,000 | 原來專家整體的會議是這樣子的結論 |
| 00:08:34,000 | 00:08:36,000 | 所以結論是 |
| 00:08:36,000 | 00:08:39,000 | 參考專家學者意見是您決策的 |
| 00:08:39,000 | 00:08:42,000 | 專家學者做出的這個會議的結論是這個 |
| 00:08:42,000 | 00:08:44,000 | 所以進一步這個會議結論是 |
| 00:08:44,000 | 00:08:45,000 | 達到這樣子的共識 |
| 00:08:45,000 | 00:08:47,000 | 好 了解 謝謝 |
| 00:08:47,000 | 00:08:49,000 | 那就請徐主任先回座 |
| 00:08:49,000 | 00:08:50,000 | 徐主任回座 |
| 00:08:51,000 | 00:08:52,000 | 市務長 |
| 00:08:52,000 | 00:08:54,000 | 上禮拜我在這邊說 |
| 00:08:54,000 | 00:08:56,000 | 我想要會計錄 |
| 00:08:56,000 | 00:08:59,000 | 也想要中聯在裡面練習的時候 |
| 00:08:59,000 | 00:09:00,000 | 跟你們報告了什麼 |
| 00:09:00,000 | 00:09:03,000 | 中聯可以知道這些學者名單 |
| 00:09:03,000 | 00:09:05,000 | 可是你這個報告 |
| 00:09:05,000 | 00:09:07,000 | 我7月30所資 |
| 00:09:07,000 | 00:09:10,000 | 當場你跟我說會後馬上會給我 |
| 00:09:10,000 | 00:09:11,000 | 我7月30跟您要 |
| 00:09:11,000 | 00:09:14,000 | 中聯到底在你們的20%會議裡面 |
| 00:09:14,000 | 00:09:16,000 | 呈現了哪些資料 |
| 00:09:16,000 | 00:09:18,000 | 因為它也有可能影響到 |
| 00:09:18,000 | 00:09:20,000 | 你後續專家學者的建議 |
| 00:09:20,000 | 00:09:21,000 | 不是嗎 |
| 00:09:21,000 | 00:09:22,000 | 人民也想知道 |
| 00:09:22,000 | 00:09:24,000 | 我們國會議員也想知道 |
| 00:09:24,000 | 00:09:25,000 | 你為什麼到現在還不能給我 |
| 00:09:25,000 | 00:09:27,000 | 你什麼時候要給我 |
| 00:09:27,000 | 00:09:30,000 | 各位說明我那天就已經提到 |
| 00:09:30,000 | 00:09:33,000 | 這個全部的資料都送給檢調 |
| 00:09:33,000 | 00:09:35,000 | 因為這包含了 |
| 00:09:35,000 | 00:09:38,000 | 當時候發生這個會議的時候 |
| 00:09:38,000 | 00:09:41,000 | 並沒有檢調還沒有把 |
| 00:09:41,000 | 00:09:45,000 | 這個相關的人等列為他的嫌疑人 |
| 00:09:45,000 | 00:09:47,000 | 所以當時候是這樣 |
| 00:09:47,000 | 00:09:50,000 | 後面既然已經列入了是嫌疑人 |
| 00:09:50,000 | 00:09:52,000 | 當然我們就把這所有的資料 |
| 00:09:52,000 | 00:09:55,000 | 都移送給檢調一併查明 |
| 00:09:55,000 | 00:09:57,000 | 所以當時我的處理是這樣 |
| 00:09:57,000 | 00:09:59,000 | 你上週跟王毓民委員說 |
| 00:09:59,000 | 00:10:00,000 | 你送檢調 |
| 00:10:00,000 | 00:10:02,000 | 幾月幾號送檢調 |
| 00:10:02,000 | 00:10:04,000 | 非常早就送檢調 |
| 00:10:04,000 | 00:10:08,000 | 送檢調跟給我們看給全國人民看 |
| 00:10:08,000 | 00:10:10,000 | 不衝突啊 |
| 00:10:10,000 | 00:10:12,000 | 中聯在你們會議報告了什麼 |
| 00:10:12,000 | 00:10:14,000 | 我們不能知道 |
| 00:10:14,000 | 00:10:15,000 | 不衝突啊 |
| 00:10:15,000 | 00:10:16,000 | 不衝突啊 |
| 00:10:16,000 | 00:10:19,000 | 我們現在在調查的是行政責任 |
| 00:10:19,000 | 00:10:23,000 | 檢調在調查的是刑事責任 |
| 00:10:23,000 | 00:10:25,000 | 跟委員說明沒有問題 |
| 00:10:25,000 | 00:10:27,000 | 今天就會發布 |
| 00:10:27,000 | 00:10:31,000 | 今天把中聯在你們的會議上的資料 |
| 00:10:31,000 | 00:10:33,000 | 給全部的委員還有會議紀錄 |
| 00:10:33,000 | 00:10:35,000 | 給全部的委員 |
| 00:10:35,000 | 00:10:38,000 | 我看你們的吹哨子也到越來越多了嗎 |
| 00:10:38,000 | 00:10:39,000 | 可以 |
| 00:10:39,000 | 00:10:41,000 | 因為我們之前都已經陸續提供 |
| 00:10:41,000 | 00:10:43,000 | 給一些所知的委員了 |
| 00:10:43,000 | 00:10:45,000 | 所以我們這一次就乾脆把它發布 |
| 00:10:45,000 | 00:10:46,000 | 以正視聽 |
| 00:10:46,000 | 00:10:48,000 | 我們也要中聯報告的那份資料 |
| 00:10:48,000 | 00:10:50,000 | 在這邊一定要講清楚 |
| 00:10:50,000 | 00:10:52,000 | 因為我已經要了一個禮拜了 |
| 00:10:52,000 | 00:10:53,000 | 中聯報告的 |
| 00:10:53,000 | 00:10:55,000 | 就是在會上提供的 |
| 00:10:55,000 | 00:10:57,000 | 就是7月3號在台中市 |
| 00:10:57,000 | 00:10:59,000 | 專家學者 |
| 00:10:59,000 | 00:11:01,000 | 還有你們的 |
| 00:11:01,000 | 00:11:02,000 | 就給我們嘛 |
| 00:11:02,000 | 00:11:04,000 | 你壓了一個禮拜幹嘛 |
| 00:11:04,000 | 00:11:06,000 | 他那一天就已經都有檔案了 |
| 00:11:06,000 | 00:11:07,000 | 就是在7月3號 |
| 00:11:07,000 | 00:11:09,000 | 在台中市所提供的那一份資料 |
| 00:11:09,000 | 00:11:11,000 | 這邊因為台中 |
| 00:11:11,000 | 00:11:13,000 | 他裁罰了中聯跟福茂 |
| 00:11:13,000 | 00:11:15,000 | 各罰300萬 |
| 00:11:15,000 | 00:11:17,000 | 因為沒有通報 |
| 00:11:17,000 | 00:11:19,000 | 超標7倍的這些致癌油 |
| 00:11:19,000 | 00:11:21,000 | 那你認同 |
| 00:11:21,000 | 00:11:25,000 | 台中市政府用食安法第七條第五項 |
| 00:11:25,000 | 00:11:28,000 | 去做這兩家廠商的裁罰嗎 |
| 00:11:28,000 | 00:11:30,000 | 中聯福茂 |
| 00:11:30,000 | 00:11:34,000 | 福茂拿的是產品 |
| 00:11:34,000 | 00:11:38,000 | 中聯出來的那個已經是實用油脂了 |
| 00:11:38,000 | 00:11:40,000 | 它不是脫膠原油 |
| 00:11:40,000 | 00:11:43,000 | 它交給福茂的是實用油脂 |
| 00:11:43,000 | 00:11:45,000 | 實用油脂是產品 |
| 00:11:45,000 | 00:11:49,000 | 所以是符合我們的食安法第七條 |
| 00:11:49,000 | 00:11:50,000 | 應該通報的對象 |
| 00:11:50,000 | 00:11:53,000 | 所以處分福茂是這個道理 |
| 00:11:53,000 | 00:11:54,000 | 中聯也是一樣 |
| 00:11:54,000 | 00:11:58,000 | 它的成品被南僑驗出超標 |
| 00:11:58,000 | 00:12:01,000 | 而且通報給福壽 |
| 00:12:01,000 | 00:12:02,000 | 福壽在告辭中聯 |
| 00:12:02,000 | 00:12:04,000 | 我在講的是8月3號晚上 |
| 00:12:04,000 | 00:12:05,000 | 哪一個 |
| 00:12:05,000 | 00:12:07,000 | 8月3號晚上 |
| 00:12:07,000 | 00:12:10,000 | 我在講的是8月3號晚上 |
| 00:12:10,000 | 00:12:12,000 | 一案歸一案 |
| 00:12:12,000 | 00:12:15,000 | 這個是台中的新案 |
| 00:12:15,000 | 00:12:19,000 | 這是台中市政府的處分 |
| 00:12:19,000 | 00:12:21,000 | 這個是他們的處分 |
| 00:12:21,000 | 00:12:23,000 | 那看他們自己的理由是什麼 |
| 00:12:23,000 | 00:12:26,000 | 他要查清楚之後才去開罰 |
| 00:12:26,000 | 00:12:29,000 | 你剛剛不是把中聯講的很糟糕嗎 |
| 00:12:29,000 | 00:12:31,000 | 你現在不認同他們的裁罰 |
| 00:12:31,000 | 00:12:32,000 | 中聯很糟糕 |
| 00:12:32,000 | 00:12:33,000 | 福茂也很糟糕 |
| 00:12:33,000 | 00:12:35,000 | 你不認同 |
| 00:12:35,000 | 00:12:37,000 | 我沒有說我不認同 |
| 00:12:37,000 | 00:12:38,000 | 我需要去理解 |
| 00:12:38,000 | 00:12:42,000 | 台中市政府的開罰是什麼 |
| 00:12:42,000 | 00:12:44,000 | 他是針對哪一家去開罰 |
| 00:12:44,000 | 00:12:45,000 | 我寫在旁邊給你了 |
| 00:12:45,000 | 00:12:46,000 | 5月未通報 |
| 00:12:46,000 | 00:12:49,000 | 台糖採購原料異常 |
| 00:12:49,000 | 00:12:52,000 | 台中市府再各罰300萬 |
| 00:12:52,000 | 00:12:54,000 | 採購原料異常 |
| 00:12:54,000 | 00:12:56,000 | 那他是指他採購黃豆異常 |
| 00:12:56,000 | 00:12:58,000 | 還是採購什麼異常 |
| 00:12:58,000 | 00:13:00,000 | 中聯是採購的原料 |
| 00:13:00,000 | 00:13:03,000 | 中聯的原料是黃豆 |
| 00:13:05,000 | 00:13:08,000 | 那他是罰他黃豆的採購異常 |
| 00:13:08,000 | 00:13:12,000 | 他們是在罰他台糖5月的時候 |
| 00:13:12,000 | 00:13:14,000 | 往回報 |
| 00:13:14,000 | 00:13:16,000 | 你所謂的這批 |
| 00:13:16,000 | 00:13:19,000 | 你現在口中不肯承認是原料的東西 |
| 00:13:19,000 | 00:13:22,000 | 回報福茂還有中聯 |
| 00:13:22,000 | 00:13:25,000 | 但是他們兩個沒有通報 |
| 00:13:25,000 | 00:13:28,000 | 我剛剛在報告裡面講的很清楚 |
| 00:13:28,000 | 00:13:31,000 | 如果就這個食用油脂的製造 |
| 00:13:31,000 | 00:13:33,000 | 黃豆是原料 |
| 00:13:33,000 | 00:13:34,000 | 脫膠原油脂 |
| 00:13:34,000 | 00:13:35,000 | 你只要告訴我 |
| 00:13:35,000 | 00:13:38,000 | 我就問你 |
| 00:13:38,000 | 00:13:40,000 | 因為你是主管機關 |
| 00:13:40,000 | 00:13:43,000 | 最中央最高的主管機關 |
| 00:13:43,000 | 00:13:47,000 | 現在中聯福茂知道台糖拿到了一批 |
| 00:13:47,000 | 00:13:50,000 | 現在你口中不承認是原料的東西 |
| 00:13:50,000 | 00:13:53,000 | 沒有告訴中央主管機關 |
| 00:13:53,000 | 00:13:56,000 | 沒有告訴地方政府被罰了 |
| 00:13:56,000 | 00:13:58,000 | 你認不認同 |
| 00:14:00,000 | 00:14:01,000 | 你認不認同 |
| 00:14:01,000 | 00:14:03,000 | 所有的主管機關 |
| 00:14:03,000 | 00:14:05,000 | 不論是中央跟地方 |
| 00:14:05,000 | 00:14:07,000 | 都要依法行政 |
| 00:14:07,000 | 00:14:11,000 | 所有的處分都要具名的 |
| 00:14:11,000 | 00:14:13,000 | 他的法源依據 |
| 00:14:13,000 | 00:14:16,000 | 跟裁罰的原因跟理由 |
| 00:14:16,000 | 00:14:17,000 | 你講的很清楚 |
| 00:14:17,000 | 00:14:18,000 | 你認不認同 |
| 00:14:18,000 | 00:14:21,000 | 還是你要說你不認同 |
| 00:14:21,000 | 00:14:24,000 | 我會聘請台中市政府來跟我報告 |
| 00:14:24,000 | 00:14:27,000 | 委員關心你們的裁罰依據 |
| 00:14:27,000 | 00:14:29,000 | 請來這個衛福部報告 |
| 00:14:29,000 | 00:14:31,000 | 裁罰依據已經寫在上面給你看了 |
| 00:14:31,000 | 00:14:33,000 | 沒有我們需要看到裁處書 |
| 00:14:33,000 | 00:14:36,000 | 裁處書才是裁罰依據 |
| 00:14:37,000 | 00:14:39,000 | 所以你現在還沒有辦法 |
| 00:14:39,000 | 00:14:42,000 | 下判斷你認同會不認同 |
| 00:14:42,000 | 00:14:45,000 | 這個對委員的詢問 |
| 00:14:45,000 | 00:14:47,000 | 我非常的重視 |
| 00:14:47,000 | 00:14:49,000 | 所以我必須把所有的事情搞清楚 |
| 00:14:49,000 | 00:14:51,000 | 我會請台中市政府 |
| 00:14:51,000 | 00:14:52,000 | 因為委員的關心 |
| 00:14:52,000 | 00:14:54,000 | 我請他來跟我報告 |
| 00:14:54,000 | 00:14:55,000 | 下一個 |
| 00:14:55,000 | 00:14:56,000 | 我們請台糖 |
| 00:14:56,000 | 00:14:58,000 | 今天是總經理來嗎 |
| 00:14:58,000 | 00:14:59,000 | 今天是 |
| 00:14:59,000 | 00:15:00,000 | 副總 |
| 00:15:04,000 | 00:15:06,000 | 剛剛食物長不想回答的問題 |
| 00:15:06,000 | 00:15:08,000 | 其實蠻簡單的 |
| 00:15:08,000 | 00:15:10,000 | 如果他有通報 |
| 00:15:10,000 | 00:15:13,000 | 我們後面這些過去幾個月 |
| 00:15:13,000 | 00:15:16,000 | 過去一個月吃下的 |
| 00:15:16,000 | 00:15:19,000 | 接近三萬噸的毒油 |
| 00:15:19,000 | 00:15:21,000 | 也許不會出現 |
| 00:15:21,000 | 00:15:23,000 | 這麼簡單的道理 |
| 00:15:24,000 | 00:15:26,000 | 沒有 |
| 00:15:26,000 | 00:15:28,000 | 你的梗圖都在做葉片 |
| 00:15:28,000 | 00:15:29,000 | 你拿油上來幹嘛 |
| 00:15:29,000 | 00:15:31,000 | 你就拿葉片上來就好 |
| 00:15:31,000 | 00:15:34,000 | 這邊問你一個簡單的問題 |
| 00:15:36,000 | 00:15:39,000 | 葉片跟致癌油可以類比嗎 |
| 00:15:39,000 | 00:15:41,000 | 葉片是用眼睛看的 |
| 00:15:41,000 | 00:15:45,000 | 致癌油是你們用外面的檢驗機器 |
| 00:15:45,000 | 00:15:48,000 | 公正的驗出來的單位 |
| 00:15:48,000 | 00:15:50,000 | 14PPB |
| 00:15:50,000 | 00:15:52,000 | 你們到底在寫什麼東西 |
| 00:15:52,000 | 00:15:56,000 | 葉片是用眼睛看的 |
| 00:15:56,000 | 00:15:59,000 | 致癌油是致癌油 |
| 00:15:59,000 | 00:16:01,000 | 再來 |
| 00:16:01,000 | 00:16:02,000 | 餐廳 |
| 00:16:02,000 | 00:16:04,000 | 經濟部也上來 |
| 00:16:09,000 | 00:16:11,000 | 次長好 |
| 00:16:13,000 | 00:16:15,000 | 經濟部 |
| 00:16:15,000 | 00:16:17,000 | 還有我們台糖的長官 |
| 00:16:17,000 | 00:16:19,000 | 你們想要告訴人民什麼 |
| 00:16:19,000 | 00:16:22,000 | 葉片跟致癌油一樣嗎 |
| 00:16:22,000 | 00:16:25,000 | 你們想說的是什麼 |
| 00:16:25,000 | 00:16:29,000 | 台糖依規依法 |
| 00:16:29,000 | 00:16:31,000 | 來進行辦理 |
| 00:16:31,000 | 00:16:33,000 | 那我們可以看到這位黃豆的初一 |
| 00:16:33,000 | 00:16:34,000 | 沒有 |
| 00:16:34,000 | 00:16:35,000 | 我再問葉片 |
| 00:16:35,000 | 00:16:36,000 | 我們沒有 |
| 00:16:36,000 | 00:16:37,000 | 主席 |
| 00:16:37,000 | 00:16:38,000 | 他沒有回答我的問題 |
| 00:16:38,000 | 00:16:40,000 | 而且我也不想看到油在桌上 |
| 00:16:40,000 | 00:16:42,000 | 可以把油拿下去了 |
| 00:16:42,000 | 00:16:45,000 | 油等你等一下自己專題報告 |
| 00:16:45,000 | 00:16:47,000 | 再拿上來就好了 |
| 00:16:48,000 | 00:16:50,000 | 我只是在問你們兩個 |
| 00:16:50,000 | 00:16:53,000 | 經濟部跟台糖的社會溝通 |
| 00:16:53,000 | 00:16:55,000 | 到底做到哪裡去了 |
| 00:16:55,000 | 00:16:56,000 | 葉片 |
| 00:16:56,000 | 00:16:58,000 | 眼睛看的 |
| 00:16:58,000 | 00:17:01,000 | P本篇筆 |
| 00:17:01,000 | 00:17:03,000 | 機器驗出來的 |
| 00:17:03,000 | 00:17:05,000 | 超標7倍就是超標7倍 |
| 00:17:05,000 | 00:17:08,000 | 葉片跟油的關係在哪裡 |
| 00:17:08,000 | 00:17:09,000 | 你現在第一個 |
| 00:17:09,000 | 00:17:11,000 | 你告訴我你的社會溝通是什麼意思 |
| 00:17:11,000 | 00:17:12,000 | 看不懂 |
| 00:17:12,000 | 00:17:13,000 | 第二個 |
| 00:17:13,000 | 00:17:15,000 | 我這個餐廳 |
| 00:17:15,000 | 00:17:17,000 | 我會知道是哪一攤 |
| 00:17:17,000 | 00:17:21,000 | 你現在就明確知道是哪一家的油 |
| 00:17:21,000 | 00:17:23,000 | 出來是14ppb |
| 00:17:23,000 | 00:17:25,000 | 這兩個可以類比嗎 |
| 00:17:25,000 | 00:17:26,000 | 你講 |
| 00:17:26,000 | 00:17:28,000 | 好次長可以回答 |
| 00:17:28,000 | 00:17:29,000 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:17:29,000 | 00:17:31,000 | 剛剛部長已經說了 |
| 00:17:31,000 | 00:17:32,000 | 台糖的這個作為 |
| 00:17:32,000 | 00:17:34,000 | 依照食安法的規定來辦理 |
| 00:17:34,000 | 00:17:36,000 | 那台糖對於原料的採購 |
| 00:17:36,000 | 00:17:39,000 | 也依照它採購的一個契約 |
| 00:17:39,000 | 00:17:40,000 | 飲收的標準 |
| 00:17:40,000 | 00:17:42,000 | 來進行處理相關的處理 |
| 00:17:42,000 | 00:17:43,000 | 這是第一點 |
| 00:17:43,000 | 00:17:45,000 | 那第二點的一個部分 |
| 00:17:45,000 | 00:17:48,000 | 經濟部始終非常重視 |
| 00:17:48,000 | 00:17:50,000 | 我們不管是我們的消費者 |
| 00:17:50,000 | 00:17:52,000 | 或是我們的通路廠商 |
| 00:17:52,000 | 00:17:54,000 | 還有各項的一個權益 |
| 00:17:54,000 | 00:17:56,000 | 所以台糖公司在這個角色上面 |
| 00:17:56,000 | 00:17:59,000 | 它必須要依法依規來辦理 |
| 00:18:00,000 | 00:18:01,000 | 沒有聽到葉片 |
| 00:18:01,000 | 00:18:03,000 | 葉片跟油一樣嗎 |
| 00:18:03,000 | 00:18:05,000 | 葉片跟油一樣嗎 |
| 00:18:05,000 | 00:18:06,000 | 不是 台糖在法規裡面 |
| 00:18:06,000 | 00:18:08,000 | 它辦理了一個角色 |
| 00:18:08,000 | 00:18:11,000 | 它畢竟它是一個採 |
| 00:18:11,000 | 00:18:14,000 | 透過契約然後去採購這個原料 |
| 00:18:14,000 | 00:18:18,000 | 而且台中地方法院的學員稿 |
| 00:18:18,000 | 00:18:19,000 | 也有提到 |
| 00:18:19,000 | 00:18:20,000 | 來來來 台糖 |
| 00:18:20,000 | 00:18:22,000 | 台糖的官網 |
| 00:18:22,000 | 00:18:24,000 | 大家現在可以馬上上網看 |
| 00:18:24,000 | 00:18:26,000 | 台糖的使命為何 |
| 00:18:26,000 | 00:18:28,000 | 台糖公司在台灣 |
| 00:18:28,000 | 00:18:30,000 | 是一家老字號的國營企業 |
| 00:18:30,000 | 00:18:32,000 | 最家喻戶曉的品牌 |
| 00:18:32,000 | 00:18:35,000 | 所以他們肩負了配合國家政策 |
| 00:18:35,000 | 00:18:37,000 | 照顧民生需求 |
| 00:18:37,000 | 00:18:38,000 | 基本企業責任 |
| 00:18:38,000 | 00:18:40,000 | 還要跟社會產生連結 |
| 00:18:40,000 | 00:18:43,000 | 我現在都不知道你們連結到哪裡去了 |
| 00:18:43,000 | 00:18:45,000 | 好 配合國家政策 |
| 00:18:45,000 | 00:18:49,000 | 不就包括每年跟我們要這麼多預算 |
| 00:18:49,000 | 00:18:50,000 | 過去十年 |
| 00:18:50,000 | 00:18:54,000 | 700多億的食安五環 食品雲 |
| 00:18:54,000 | 00:18:57,000 | 還有邊境學房 |
| 00:18:57,000 | 00:19:00,000 | 每一種毒的東西連邊境都進不來 |
| 00:19:00,000 | 00:19:02,000 | 食藥署這個要幫我們把關 |
| 00:19:02,000 | 00:19:05,000 | 從原料到餐桌 |
| 00:19:05,000 | 00:19:07,000 | 每一樣東西都很安心 |
| 00:19:07,000 | 00:19:12,000 | 而台糖也是配合國家政策的一份子 |
| 00:19:12,000 | 00:19:14,000 | 你自己看看你們的使命 |
| 00:19:14,000 | 00:19:18,000 | 跟你現在做出來的事情吻合嗎 |
| 00:19:18,000 | 00:19:19,000 | 不用回答了 |
| 00:19:19,000 | 00:19:24,000 | 下一張我們請食部長 |
| 00:19:24,000 | 00:19:25,000 | 食部長如果你要說 |
| 00:19:25,000 | 00:19:27,000 | 這個只算蘇丹紅的話 |
| 00:19:27,000 | 00:19:28,000 | 你就簡單說明 |
| 00:19:28,000 | 00:19:30,000 | 你們自己113年 |
| 00:19:30,000 | 00:19:33,000 | 因為蘇丹紅這種工業的原料 |
| 00:19:33,000 | 00:19:35,000 | 混進了食品中 |
| 00:19:35,000 | 00:19:36,000 | 混進了化妝品 |
| 00:19:36,000 | 00:19:38,000 | 你們跟業者做了好多的說明會 |
| 00:19:38,000 | 00:19:39,000 | 告訴他們說 |
| 00:19:39,000 | 00:19:42,000 | 食品業者發現原料或是產品 |
| 00:19:42,000 | 00:19:44,000 | 有危害衛生之餘 |
| 00:19:44,000 | 00:19:47,000 | 就要主動的通報 |
| 00:19:47,000 | 00:19:49,000 | 那個指的是非法添加 |
| 00:19:49,000 | 00:19:50,000 | 這個不一樣 |
| 00:19:50,000 | 00:19:53,000 | 這個不是中間的產品 |
| 00:19:53,000 | 00:19:55,000 | 這個是違法添加 |
| 00:19:55,000 | 00:20:00,000 | 部長你知道你現在在大開一個邪惡之門 |
| 00:20:00,000 | 00:20:02,000 | 你剛舉了好多歪理 |
| 00:20:02,000 | 00:20:05,000 | 你今天在這邊講的話 |
| 00:20:05,000 | 00:20:06,000 | 從現在開始 |
| 00:20:06,000 | 00:20:08,000 | 從這一分鐘開始 |
| 00:20:08,000 | 00:20:11,000 | 迪麵粉的還沒進工廠 |
| 00:20:11,000 | 00:20:12,000 | 還沒進門口 |
| 00:20:12,000 | 00:20:14,000 | 結果迪麵粉的被抓到 |
| 00:20:14,000 | 00:20:17,000 | 他說我等一下要做醬糊 |
| 00:20:17,000 | 00:20:19,000 | 這不是給人吃的 |
| 00:20:19,000 | 00:20:21,000 | 迪糖被抓到 |
| 00:20:21,000 | 00:20:23,000 | 他就說我這個等一下 |
| 00:20:23,000 | 00:20:24,000 | 是要做工業酒精的 |
| 00:20:24,000 | 00:20:26,000 | 你們可以做工業酒精嗎 |
| 00:20:26,000 | 00:20:28,000 | 糖也可以做工業酒精 |
| 00:20:28,000 | 00:20:32,000 | 你這個大開邪惡之門 |
| 00:20:32,000 | 00:20:34,000 | 他只要說他這個東西 |
| 00:20:34,000 | 00:20:37,000 | 後面有可能不是人吃的 |
| 00:20:37,000 | 00:20:40,000 | 後面有可能不是人吃的 |
| 00:20:40,000 | 00:20:41,000 | 就脫罪了 |
| 00:20:41,000 | 00:20:43,000 | 你引用的法條不對 |
| 00:20:43,000 | 00:20:46,000 | 如果他是違法添加進去的 |
| 00:20:46,000 | 00:20:50,000 | 是違反了食安法第15條第一項的規定 |
| 00:20:50,000 | 00:20:53,000 | 是會到第6萬到2億的罰款 |
| 00:20:53,000 | 00:20:55,000 | 那是不一樣的東西 |
| 00:20:55,000 | 00:20:57,000 | 我講的東西 |
| 00:20:57,000 | 00:21:00,000 | 也可能是本篇筆超標的麵粉 |
| 00:21:00,000 | 00:21:03,000 | 也可能是本篇筆超標的糖 |
| 00:21:03,000 | 00:21:05,000 | 不是嗎 |
| 00:21:05,000 | 00:21:07,000 | 他就不適用了 |
| 00:21:07,000 | 00:21:09,000 | 他們也可以做成很多 |
| 00:21:09,000 | 00:21:11,000 | 不是人在吃的東西 |
| 00:21:11,000 | 00:21:13,000 | 糖沒有本篇筆 |
| 00:21:13,000 | 00:21:15,000 | 不管如何 |
| 00:21:15,000 | 00:21:19,000 | 他們還是會有你們超標的東西 |
| 00:21:19,000 | 00:21:21,000 | 在裡面 |
| 00:21:21,000 | 00:21:23,000 | 不是嗎 |
| 00:21:23,000 | 00:21:26,000 | 我們沒有在訂原料的標準 |
| 00:21:26,000 | 00:21:28,000 | 我們要看你訂的是哪一個 |
| 00:21:28,000 | 00:21:30,000 | 我們剛剛提到的 |
| 00:21:30,000 | 00:21:33,000 | 本篇筆是訂在實用油脂的標準 |
| 00:21:33,000 | 00:21:35,000 | 你就跟我講清楚 |
| 00:21:35,000 | 00:21:37,000 | 你這個東西 |
| 00:21:37,000 | 00:21:41,000 | 你這個東西113年你發佈的新聞稿 |
| 00:21:41,000 | 00:21:43,000 | 你就告訴大家好了 |
| 00:21:43,000 | 00:21:45,000 | 你現在就告訴全國國人 |
| 00:21:45,000 | 00:21:47,000 | 你就只針對蘇丹紅 |
| 00:21:47,000 | 00:21:49,000 | 不是蘇丹紅 |
| 00:21:49,000 | 00:21:51,000 | 不能夠添加的 |
| 00:21:51,000 | 00:21:53,000 | 蘇丹紅是舉例 |
| 00:21:53,000 | 00:21:55,000 | 因為他是不得添加 |
| 00:21:55,000 | 00:21:57,000 | 你自己的簡報 |
| 00:21:57,000 | 00:21:59,000 | 你自己的簡報寫得很清楚 |
| 00:21:59,000 | 00:22:03,000 | 危害衛生安全之虞 |
| 00:22:03,000 | 00:22:06,000 | 你是違法添加 |
| 00:22:06,000 | 00:22:08,000 | 就已經違法添加 |
| 00:22:08,000 | 00:22:12,000 | 違法添加就違反了第15條的規定 |
| 00:22:12,000 | 00:22:15,000 | 你上面幫人家做教育訓練是 |
| 00:22:15,000 | 00:22:17,000 | 危害衛生安全之虞 |
| 00:22:17,000 | 00:22:20,000 | 現在又要硬撈成違法添加 |
| 00:22:20,000 | 00:22:23,000 | 你這個是斷章取義 |
| 00:22:23,000 | 00:22:25,000 | 我跟你講我沒有斷章取義 |
| 00:22:25,000 | 00:22:28,000 | 我們看監察院的調查報告 |
| 00:22:28,000 | 00:22:30,000 | 你會覺得濃濃的即視感 |
| 00:22:30,000 | 00:22:33,000 | 113年監察院的調查報告 |
| 00:22:33,000 | 00:22:34,000 | 就寫得很清楚了 |
| 00:22:34,000 | 00:22:36,000 | 那個時候發生蘇丹紅事件 |
| 00:22:36,000 | 00:22:38,000 | 他們說食品業者訂定的 |
| 00:22:38,000 | 00:22:40,000 | 食品安全監測計畫 |
| 00:22:40,000 | 00:22:43,000 | 未有承報主管機關之規定 |
| 00:22:43,000 | 00:22:45,000 | 故針對原料半成品成品檢驗項目 |
| 00:22:45,000 | 00:22:47,000 | 任由業者自行評估 |
| 00:22:47,000 | 00:22:50,000 | 具本案未將蘇丹紅納為風險檢驗項目 |
| 00:22:50,000 | 00:22:53,000 | 難以真實反應潛藏食安風險 |
| 00:22:53,000 | 00:22:55,000 | 主管機關無從事先察覺 |
| 00:22:55,000 | 00:23:00,000 | 又本案存在居多以虛偽樣本盛檢 |
| 00:23:00,000 | 00:23:02,000 | 檢驗結果不合格 |
| 00:23:02,000 | 00:23:04,000 | 遭下游公司拓貨後 |
| 00:23:04,000 | 00:23:07,000 | 仍持續出貨給不知情的公司 |
| 00:23:07,000 | 00:23:09,000 | 甚至變造檢驗報告 |
| 00:23:09,000 | 00:23:13,000 | 以取信下游廠商盛檢不合格後 |
| 00:23:13,000 | 00:23:16,000 | 業者為主動通報主管機關等違規 |
| 00:23:16,000 | 00:23:18,000 | 113年監察院告訴你的事情 |
| 00:23:18,000 | 00:23:21,000 | 現在就活生生的 |
| 00:23:21,000 | 00:23:23,000 | 又出現在我們面前了 |
| 00:23:24,000 | 00:23:28,000 | 你看監察院的右邊寫什麼 |
| 00:23:28,000 | 00:23:30,000 | 依法不得添加的東西 |
| 00:23:30,000 | 00:23:32,000 | 你聽我說清楚了 |
| 00:23:32,000 | 00:23:34,000 | 不得添加的東西 |
| 00:23:34,000 | 00:23:37,000 | 不論在原料或者是產品 |
| 00:23:37,000 | 00:23:39,000 | 都是不得添加 |
| 00:23:39,000 | 00:23:41,000 | 如果是安全衛生標準的 |
| 00:23:41,000 | 00:23:45,000 | 他就會訂出他的適用產品 |
| 00:23:45,000 | 00:23:49,000 | 是什麼產品的什麼物質的標準 |
| 00:23:49,000 | 00:23:50,000 | 這是兩回事 |
| 00:23:50,000 | 00:23:52,000 | 不能回一談 |
| 00:23:52,000 | 00:23:56,000 | 部長請你看監察院調查報告 |
| 00:23:56,000 | 00:24:00,000 | 他最後是用食安法第七條第五項 |
| 00:24:00,000 | 00:24:01,000 | 所以他說 |
| 00:24:01,000 | 00:24:04,000 | 業者知產品原材料 |
| 00:24:04,000 | 00:24:07,000 | 半成品成品盛驗後檢驗結果不合格 |
| 00:24:07,000 | 00:24:10,000 | 需因食安法第七條第五項規定 |
| 00:24:10,000 | 00:24:11,000 | 主動停止製造 |
| 00:24:11,000 | 00:24:14,000 | 並通報地方主管機關 |
| 00:24:14,000 | 00:24:15,000 | 現在我們要相信監察院 |
| 00:24:15,000 | 00:24:17,000 | 還是相信你的法條解釋 |
| 00:24:19,000 | 00:24:23,000 | 監察院在這邊寫了第七條第五項 |
| 00:24:23,000 | 00:24:25,000 | 不得添加的東西 |
| 00:24:25,000 | 00:24:28,000 | 不論是在原料還是在產品 |
| 00:24:28,000 | 00:24:30,000 | 都是不得添加 |
| 00:24:30,000 | 00:24:32,000 | 但是如果是安全衛生標準 |
| 00:24:32,000 | 00:24:34,000 | 按照第十條訂出的 |
| 00:24:34,000 | 00:24:37,000 | 就要看他的適用品項 |
| 00:24:37,000 | 00:24:39,000 | 跟他的標準是什麼 |
| 00:24:39,000 | 00:24:42,000 | 這是兩回事不能混為一談 |
| 00:24:42,000 | 00:24:43,000 | 下一個 |
| 00:24:43,000 | 00:24:46,000 | 我們請台探回答 |
| 00:24:46,000 | 00:24:48,000 | 如果你們平常有一些問題 |
| 00:24:48,000 | 00:24:50,000 | 你們是通報給誰 |
| 00:24:50,000 | 00:24:53,000 | 如果你們的SOP實用有出問題 |
| 00:24:53,000 | 00:24:54,000 | 你們通報哪一個單位 |
| 00:24:54,000 | 00:24:56,000 | 是 我們一定會通報我們的 |
| 00:24:56,000 | 00:24:59,000 | 那個實用有的主管機關 |
| 00:24:59,000 | 00:25:02,000 | 誰啊誰 |
| 00:25:02,000 | 00:25:03,000 | 高雄市政府 |
| 00:25:03,000 | 00:25:04,000 | 高雄市政府 |
| 00:25:04,000 | 00:25:06,000 | OK 因為他們現在兩邊 |
| 00:25:06,000 | 00:25:07,000 | 一直在踢皮球 |
| 00:25:07,000 | 00:25:09,000 | 高雄市政府說要 |
| 00:25:09,000 | 00:25:10,000 | 收集很多資料給台南 |
| 00:25:10,000 | 00:25:13,000 | 台南又說沒有是歸高雄管 |
| 00:25:13,000 | 00:25:15,000 | 好 我們現在聽到你說 |
| 00:25:15,000 | 00:25:17,000 | 是高雄市政府 |
| 00:25:17,000 | 00:25:18,000 | 好 那我們知道了 |
| 00:25:18,000 | 00:25:20,000 | 不過剛剛我有念出 |
| 00:25:20,000 | 00:25:22,000 | 你們的中指嘛 |
| 00:25:22,000 | 00:25:23,000 | 成立中指 |
| 00:25:23,000 | 00:25:25,000 | 最終人民還是希望 |
| 00:25:25,000 | 00:25:26,000 | 國營企業 |
| 00:25:26,000 | 00:25:28,000 | 負起國營企業該有的責任 |
| 00:25:28,000 | 00:25:31,000 | 你們只要當時有通報把關 |
| 00:25:31,000 | 00:25:34,000 | 後面這幾萬噸吃下去的毒油 |
| 00:25:34,000 | 00:25:36,000 | 就不會在我們國人的肚子裡了 |
| 00:25:36,000 | 00:25:38,000 | 請回座 |
| 00:25:38,000 | 00:25:39,000 | 是 跟委員報告 |
| 00:25:39,000 | 00:25:42,000 | 就台南公司的認知 |
| 00:25:42,000 | 00:25:46,000 | 出油就是脫膠的這個出油 |
| 00:25:46,000 | 00:25:48,000 | 它是不能吃的 |
| 00:25:48,000 | 00:25:49,000 | 它不是可以吃的 |
| 00:25:49,000 | 00:25:51,000 | 所以它不是食品 |
| 00:25:51,000 | 00:25:52,000 | 它不是食品 |
| 00:25:52,000 | 00:25:54,000 | 所以我們的認知是它 |
| 00:25:54,000 | 00:25:57,000 | 我跟你說你只要通報 |
| 00:25:57,000 | 00:26:00,000 | 他們當時告訴去查中聯 |
| 00:26:00,000 | 00:26:03,000 | 他們會查出更多更多更多 |
| 00:26:03,000 | 00:26:06,000 | 最後會讓人家吃下去的東西 |
| 00:26:06,000 | 00:26:08,000 | 我們可以請四位先回座 |
| 00:26:08,000 | 00:26:10,000 | 我們留著時務長 |
| 00:26:10,000 | 00:26:13,000 | 四位都有 謝謝 |
| 00:26:13,000 | 00:26:14,000 | 上禮拜你就說 |
| 00:26:14,000 | 00:26:15,000 | 你也不是食安專家 |
| 00:26:15,000 | 00:26:17,000 | 我也不是食安專家 |
| 00:26:17,000 | 00:26:18,000 | 所以我們都不應該 |
| 00:26:18,000 | 00:26:20,000 | 表達自己的意見 |
| 00:26:20,000 | 00:26:21,000 | 今天我們有食安專家了 |
| 00:26:21,000 | 00:26:22,000 | 江志剛 |
| 00:26:22,000 | 00:26:25,000 | 然後這邊還有法律專家 |
| 00:26:25,000 | 00:26:27,000 | 高檢署主任陳宏達 |
| 00:26:27,000 | 00:26:28,000 | 這邊還有一位公衛專家 |
| 00:26:28,000 | 00:26:29,000 | 詹長權 |
| 00:26:29,000 | 00:26:30,000 | 他們的發言 |
| 00:26:30,000 | 00:26:33,000 | 我不知道你要不要採納 |
| 00:26:33,000 | 00:26:35,000 | 一個說通報是法定義務 |
| 00:26:35,000 | 00:26:38,000 | 並非行政機關給人民的恩惠 |
| 00:26:38,000 | 00:26:40,000 | 另外一位公衛教授說 |
| 00:26:40,000 | 00:26:42,000 | 另外一位公衛教授說 |
| 00:26:42,000 | 00:26:44,000 | 這不只是食安的問題 |
| 00:26:44,000 | 00:26:46,000 | 更是公共治理 |
| 00:26:46,000 | 00:26:49,000 | 跟政府誠信的問題 |
| 00:26:49,000 | 00:26:51,000 | 還是你覺得你還是最懂 |
| 00:26:51,000 | 00:26:54,000 | 公衛跟解釋法條的人 |
| 00:26:54,000 | 00:26:56,000 | 通報是法定義務 |
| 00:26:56,000 | 00:26:59,000 | 在食安法明定的通報義務 |
| 00:26:59,000 | 00:27:00,000 | 很清楚 |
| 00:27:00,000 | 00:27:02,000 | 這一句話絕對是對的 |
| 00:27:02,000 | 00:27:03,000 | 你覺得你懂法律 |
| 00:27:03,000 | 00:27:05,000 | 比高檢署主任還懂 |
| 00:27:05,000 | 00:27:07,000 | 那詹長權呢 |
| 00:27:07,000 | 00:27:09,000 | 詹長權我不知道他說的是什麼 |
| 00:27:09,000 | 00:27:11,000 | 不知道他說的是什麼 |
| 00:27:11,000 | 00:27:12,000 | 可是他做的東西 |
| 00:27:12,000 | 00:27:14,000 | 我已經寫在上面了 |
| 00:27:14,000 | 00:27:18,000 | 本篇筆的標準是定在產品 |
| 00:27:18,000 | 00:27:20,000 | 也就是食用油脂 |
| 00:27:20,000 | 00:27:22,000 | 本篇筆的標準 |
| 00:27:22,000 | 00:27:24,000 | 不是定在脫膠原油 |
| 00:27:24,000 | 00:27:26,000 | 我還是要再強調 |
| 00:27:26,000 | 00:27:29,000 | 脫膠原油後面會經過脫酸 |
| 00:27:29,000 | 00:27:31,000 | 脫色 脫臭 |
| 00:27:31,000 | 00:27:33,000 | 那麼它最高可以降低 |
| 00:27:33,000 | 00:27:34,000 | 百分之百 |
| 00:27:34,000 | 00:27:35,000 | 其實大家都聽懂了 |
| 00:27:35,000 | 00:27:37,000 | 以後我們都知道了 |
| 00:27:37,000 | 00:27:40,000 | 本篇筆是定在食用油脂 |
| 00:27:40,000 | 00:27:41,000 | 其實我就下一個結論 |
| 00:27:41,000 | 00:27:44,000 | 這七百多億食安五環 |
| 00:27:44,000 | 00:27:46,000 | 環環不斷練 |
| 00:27:46,000 | 00:27:47,000 | 從源頭開始管理 |
| 00:27:47,000 | 00:27:48,000 | 自主通報 |
| 00:27:48,000 | 00:27:50,000 | 還有這些預警機制 |
| 00:27:50,000 | 00:27:52,000 | 去掉了脫膠原油 |
| 00:27:52,000 | 00:27:54,000 | 就是這個結論 謝謝 |
| 00:27:55,000 | 00:27:56,000 | 食用油脂廠 |
| 00:27:56,000 | 00:27:58,000 | 它必須要去 |
| 00:27:58,000 | 00:27:59,000 | 結束了 |
| 00:27:59,000 | 00:28:01,000 | 它必須去改善它的製程 |
| 00:28:03,000 | 00:28:06,000 | 好 謝謝陳金火委員的質詢 |