iVOD / 170781
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邱鎮軍 @ 第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:08,000 | 主席好啊 我們先請石部長 |
| 00:00:08,000 | 00:00:10,000 | 好 有請石部長 |
| 00:00:10,000 | 00:00:13,000 | 好 崔委員早 |
| 00:00:13,000 | 00:00:15,000 | 部長好啊 我們先看一下影片 |
| 00:00:21,000 | 00:00:23,000 | 關心這次摯埃喔 |
| 00:00:23,000 | 00:00:25,000 | 我叫粉甜皮 |
| 00:00:25,000 | 00:00:28,000 | 我跟香煙 熟眠 痛經 |
| 00:00:28,000 | 00:00:30,000 | 都是一體致癌 |
| 00:00:30,000 | 00:00:32,000 | 確定是人致癌 |
| 00:00:32,000 | 00:00:35,000 | 肺癌 胃癌 腸癌 皮膚癌 |
| 00:00:35,000 | 00:00:36,000 | 都是我的作品 |
| 00:00:36,000 | 00:00:39,000 | 我不讓你痛 那太粗糙了 |
| 00:00:39,000 | 00:00:41,000 | 我潛進你的細胞 |
| 00:00:41,000 | 00:00:44,000 | 專門拆掉你身上來到狂癌的沙塵 |
| 00:00:44,000 | 00:00:46,000 | 然後讓錯誤開始複製 |
| 00:00:46,000 | 00:00:49,000 | 從你吃下去那天就開始 |
| 00:00:49,000 | 00:00:51,000 | 直到有一天崩潰回生 |
| 00:00:51,000 | 00:00:53,000 | 這一次我被叫毒油 |
| 00:00:53,000 | 00:00:55,000 | 超過安全標準4倍 |
| 00:00:55,000 | 00:00:58,000 | CP不可可 8000多紅盾 |
| 00:00:58,000 | 00:01:00,000 | 追回來的不到30 |
| 00:01:00,000 | 00:01:04,000 | 剩下的6個去了1300多個店家 |
| 00:01:04,000 | 00:01:06,000 | 你的便當店 我的超商 |
| 00:01:06,000 | 00:01:08,000 | 你家鄉的餐廳 |
| 00:01:08,000 | 00:01:10,000 | 還有你女孩子的營養產品 |
| 00:01:10,000 | 00:01:13,000 | 你以為把我吃下去就結束了 |
| 00:01:13,000 | 00:01:16,000 | 當你把我倒進鍋裡燒到冒煙 |
| 00:01:16,000 | 00:01:19,000 | 我會變成你呼吸的煙氣 |
| 00:01:19,000 | 00:01:21,000 | 這一次我直接進你的背 |
| 00:01:21,000 | 00:01:24,000 | 全世界最怕的就是我會知道背 |
| 00:01:24,000 | 00:01:27,000 | 站在鍋前的最有利的消息 |
| 00:01:27,000 | 00:01:29,000 | 謝謝制度什麼都沒改 |
| 00:01:29,000 | 00:01:32,000 | 謝謝那些人把責任推得乾乾淨淨 |
| 00:01:32,000 | 00:01:35,000 | 所以我還在你的餐桌上 |
| 00:01:35,000 | 00:01:37,000 | 哎呦不是我逼你吃你跟我大聲幹嘛 |
| 00:01:37,000 | 00:01:39,000 | 你很不適 |
| 00:01:39,000 | 00:01:42,000 | 可是我們從來沒有選擇 |
| 00:01:42,000 | 00:01:43,000 | 好部長 |
| 00:01:43,000 | 00:01:45,000 | 這支影片叫由不得你 |
| 00:01:45,000 | 00:01:46,000 | 這個短片很紅 |
| 00:01:46,000 | 00:01:48,000 | 部長有看過嗎 |
| 00:01:48,000 | 00:01:50,000 | 有沒有看過 |
| 00:01:50,000 | 00:01:51,000 | 我沒有看到 |
| 00:01:51,000 | 00:01:53,000 | 但是媒體有報導 |
| 00:01:53,000 | 00:01:55,000 | 剛剛現在你看的嘛 |
| 00:01:55,000 | 00:01:57,000 | 那這支短片的內容 |
| 00:01:57,000 | 00:01:59,000 | 跟實際有不符的部分嗎 |
| 00:01:59,000 | 00:02:01,000 | 最大的問題我想 |
| 00:02:01,000 | 00:02:04,000 | 這個一聽的時候就還以為是總統 |
| 00:02:04,000 | 00:02:05,000 | 所以這個是 |
| 00:02:05,000 | 00:02:09,000 | 我們不應該用這種委的方式 |
| 00:02:09,000 | 00:02:10,000 | 我們就講內容就好了 |
| 00:02:10,000 | 00:02:11,000 | 我現在要知道的是 |
| 00:02:11,000 | 00:02:13,000 | 他的內容有沒有錯誤 |
| 00:02:13,000 | 00:02:15,000 | 他講的事情有沒有錯 |
| 00:02:15,000 | 00:02:16,000 | 我們在法律上 |
| 00:02:16,000 | 00:02:18,000 | 都要先講程序的正義 |
| 00:02:18,000 | 00:02:20,000 | 才有實質的正義 |
| 00:02:20,000 | 00:02:22,000 | 如果這個程序完全是錯誤的 |
| 00:02:22,000 | 00:02:23,000 | 就該被譴責 |
| 00:02:23,000 | 00:02:26,000 | 而不論內容的對錯 |
| 00:02:26,000 | 00:02:28,000 | 所以先講程序正義 |
| 00:02:28,000 | 00:02:32,000 | 這個製造的程序完全就是違法 |
| 00:02:32,000 | 00:02:34,000 | 那麼不應該要被譴責的 |
| 00:02:34,000 | 00:02:36,000 | 所以根本不值得討論他的內容 |
| 00:02:36,000 | 00:02:38,000 | 你剛剛聽到的是 |
| 00:02:38,000 | 00:02:40,000 | 我們賴清德總統的聲音 |
| 00:02:40,000 | 00:02:41,000 | 對 |
| 00:02:41,000 | 00:02:42,000 | 誤認了 |
| 00:02:42,000 | 00:02:44,000 | 所以你把賴清德總統當作本篇 |
| 00:02:44,000 | 00:02:46,000 | 有意想要讓大家誤認 |
| 00:02:46,000 | 00:02:48,000 | 這個是我們總統的聲音 |
| 00:02:48,000 | 00:02:50,000 | 所以你還是覺得 |
| 00:02:50,000 | 00:02:52,000 | 在目的上不正好 |
| 00:02:52,000 | 00:02:54,000 | 對的煞包 |
| 00:02:54,000 | 00:02:56,000 | 在替自己宣傳嗎 |
| 00:02:56,000 | 00:02:57,000 | 我還是要強調 |
| 00:02:57,000 | 00:02:59,000 | 沒有程序的正義 |
| 00:02:59,000 | 00:03:00,000 | 就沒有內容 |
| 00:03:00,000 | 00:03:01,000 | 科學的正義 |
| 00:03:01,000 | 00:03:02,000 | 還有行政會的正義 |
| 00:03:02,000 | 00:03:03,000 | 猶豫跟轉換 |
| 00:03:03,000 | 00:03:05,000 | 重要的是他的 |
| 00:03:05,000 | 00:03:07,000 | 擺在社會大臣前面 |
| 00:03:07,000 | 00:03:10,000 | 中年至於自來由你們知道 |
| 00:03:10,000 | 00:03:12,000 | 到現在快滿月了 |
| 00:03:12,000 | 00:03:14,000 | 你們現在留給人民很多問號 |
| 00:03:14,000 | 00:03:16,000 | 人民如果沒有能力 |
| 00:03:16,000 | 00:03:18,000 | 在辨識餐桌上的由來自哪一批 |
| 00:03:18,000 | 00:03:20,000 | 也沒能力自行檢測 |
| 00:03:20,000 | 00:03:22,000 | 如果政府不及時公開資訊 |
| 00:03:22,000 | 00:03:26,000 | 人民就沒有知情的權利 |
| 00:03:26,000 | 00:03:28,000 | 完全都沒有辦法選擇 |
| 00:03:28,000 | 00:03:30,000 | 這一切確實由不得你 |
| 00:03:30,000 | 00:03:31,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:03:31,000 | 00:03:34,000 | 也由不得民進黨政府閃躲不是嗎 |
| 00:03:34,000 | 00:03:35,000 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:03:35,000 | 00:03:38,000 | 經過我們跟地方衛生局 |
| 00:03:38,000 | 00:03:40,000 | 大家共同的協力 |
| 00:03:40,000 | 00:03:42,000 | 現在在商場上面 |
| 00:03:42,000 | 00:03:44,000 | 在架上的有品都是安全的 |
| 00:03:44,000 | 00:03:46,000 | 所以請大家放心 |
| 00:03:46,000 | 00:03:49,000 | 陳時中政委在7月27號的記者會上說 |
| 00:03:49,000 | 00:03:51,000 | 如果遇到食安的狀況 |
| 00:03:51,000 | 00:03:52,000 | 全部都下架的話 |
| 00:03:52,000 | 00:03:54,000 | 那很快大家都會沒有東西吃 |
| 00:03:54,000 | 00:03:56,000 | 那民進黨執政11年了 |
| 00:03:56,000 | 00:03:58,000 | 現在人民只能選擇 |
| 00:03:58,000 | 00:04:00,000 | 跟餓死跟毒死之間來做選擇 |
| 00:04:00,000 | 00:04:01,000 | 是這樣嗎 |
| 00:04:01,000 | 00:04:03,000 | 我們剛剛提到 |
| 00:04:03,000 | 00:04:04,000 | 就是說這些東西 |
| 00:04:04,000 | 00:04:06,000 | 你必須一定要吃下去 |
| 00:04:06,000 | 00:04:08,000 | 放心現在在架上的有品 |
| 00:04:08,000 | 00:04:09,000 | 都是安全的沒有問題 |
| 00:04:09,000 | 00:04:11,000 | 所以你們當初說出來的話 |
| 00:04:11,000 | 00:04:13,000 | 是你當初的陳時中講的這句話 |
| 00:04:13,000 | 00:04:17,000 | 是當初你們訂定20%標準的依據嗎 |
| 00:04:17,000 | 00:04:21,000 | 我想這個日前陳政委在記者會上講的 |
| 00:04:21,000 | 00:04:23,000 | 是被斷章取義的 |
| 00:04:23,000 | 00:04:25,000 | 那個是對記者的詢問 |
| 00:04:25,000 | 00:04:29,000 | 他去描述整個在安全標準的制定上 |
| 00:04:29,000 | 00:04:30,000 | 跟他的管理的措施 |
| 00:04:30,000 | 00:04:31,000 | 那我在問部長 |
| 00:04:31,000 | 00:04:33,000 | 7月22號 |
| 00:04:33,000 | 00:04:35,000 | 我們本委員會通過臨時提案 |
| 00:04:35,000 | 00:04:37,000 | 要求致癌藥 |
| 00:04:37,000 | 00:04:40,000 | 為全面查明劉項羽真相前 |
| 00:04:40,000 | 00:04:42,000 | 不得讓這些有品重新上架 |
| 00:04:42,000 | 00:04:45,000 | 那你們現在有停止恢復上架嗎 |
| 00:04:45,000 | 00:04:48,000 | 我們問題的有品都不可以上架 |
| 00:04:48,000 | 00:04:50,000 | 包含他的相關的加工資料 |
| 00:04:50,000 | 00:04:53,000 | 所以那7P我們都公告了 |
| 00:04:53,000 | 00:04:56,000 | 依照上架原則都是檢驗的過 |
| 00:04:56,000 | 00:04:59,000 | 所以問題都不會有問題 |
| 00:04:59,000 | 00:05:01,000 | 對我們已經都檢驗完了 |
| 00:05:01,000 | 00:05:03,000 | 那絕對條件是全面清查 |
| 00:05:03,000 | 00:05:05,000 | 不是充驗合格喔 |
| 00:05:05,000 | 00:05:09,000 | 我們這一次是分原分項 |
| 00:05:09,000 | 00:05:10,000 | 然後呢 |
| 00:05:10,000 | 00:05:11,000 | 逐批的確認之後 |
| 00:05:11,000 | 00:05:13,000 | 還上下游去比對之後 |
| 00:05:13,000 | 00:05:16,000 | 才確認這個19P是OK的 |
| 00:05:16,000 | 00:05:17,000 | 但是你們到目前為止 |
| 00:05:17,000 | 00:05:19,000 | 只是說明中聯被查出的有問題 |
| 00:05:19,000 | 00:05:22,000 | 但是沒有辦法證明其他廠商沒有問題 |
| 00:05:22,000 | 00:05:25,000 | 您說的是哪些廠商 |
| 00:05:25,000 | 00:05:26,000 | 其他的啊 |
| 00:05:26,000 | 00:05:30,000 | 我們這一次是針對中聯的有品 |
| 00:05:30,000 | 00:05:33,000 | 那另外三家包含這個大統議啦 |
| 00:05:33,000 | 00:05:34,000 | 還有這個台糖啦 |
| 00:05:34,000 | 00:05:35,000 | 跟腸灰 |
| 00:05:35,000 | 00:05:37,000 | 我們也去他的廠做抽驗了 |
| 00:05:37,000 | 00:05:40,000 | 包含從他的這個原料的抽驗 |
| 00:05:40,000 | 00:05:42,000 | 還有這個出油的抽驗 |
| 00:05:42,000 | 00:05:43,000 | 還有成品的抽驗 |
| 00:05:43,000 | 00:05:47,000 | 今年試到這個巴西大豆原料的 |
| 00:05:47,000 | 00:05:48,000 | 跟產出的有品查明了嗎 |
| 00:05:48,000 | 00:05:49,000 | 有查到嗎 |
| 00:05:49,000 | 00:05:51,000 | 原料的部分 |
| 00:05:51,000 | 00:05:52,000 | 跟有品喔 |
| 00:05:52,000 | 00:05:53,000 | 這個 |
| 00:05:53,000 | 00:05:54,000 | 成品也是啊 |
| 00:05:54,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 對這個廠我們剛剛也調查過了 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:06:00,000 | 昨天我們也把這個調查報告 |
| 00:06:00,000 | 00:06:02,000 | 已經上網公布了 |
| 00:06:02,000 | 00:06:04,000 | 最主要他的某一個批 |
| 00:06:04,000 | 00:06:08,000 | 傳批的這個熱損利率比較高 |
| 00:06:08,000 | 00:06:11,000 | 然後在後面他這個風險帶進來之後 |
| 00:06:11,000 | 00:06:14,000 | 沒有經過製程的調整造成 |
| 00:06:14,000 | 00:06:16,000 | 今天試到六月 |
| 00:06:16,000 | 00:06:19,000 | 那一批比較高的 |
| 00:06:19,000 | 00:06:22,000 | 只在他的廠 |
| 00:06:22,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 那去年放寬熱損 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:26,000 | 率是從去年六月四號開始的 |
| 00:06:26,000 | 00:06:29,000 | 從去年六月四號到今年三十一號 |
| 00:06:29,000 | 00:06:30,000 | 將近十個月 |
| 00:06:30,000 | 00:06:33,000 | 那這段中間中聯出了幾批貨 |
| 00:06:33,000 | 00:06:34,000 | 多少公噸 |
| 00:06:34,000 | 00:06:36,000 | 下游去哪裡了 |
| 00:06:36,000 | 00:06:37,000 | 你這邊有數據嗎 |
| 00:06:37,000 | 00:06:39,000 | 有我們都有了解 |
| 00:06:39,000 | 00:06:40,000 | 那跟委員說明 |
| 00:06:40,000 | 00:06:41,000 | 那你了解的狀況是什麼 |
| 00:06:41,000 | 00:06:42,000 | 那麼這一個 |
| 00:06:42,000 | 00:06:43,000 | 這十個地方 |
| 00:06:43,000 | 00:06:46,000 | 這一個批次比較高的這個批次 |
| 00:06:46,000 | 00:06:50,000 | 這個批次的傳櫃只在他這個廠 |
| 00:06:50,000 | 00:06:52,000 | 他沒有到其他的地方 |
| 00:06:52,000 | 00:06:55,000 | 然後他的製程上其實只要調整 |
| 00:06:55,000 | 00:06:56,000 | 就是可以符合標準 |
| 00:06:56,000 | 00:06:59,000 | 所以不是絕對的巴西豆就不能用 |
| 00:06:59,000 | 00:07:03,000 | 也不是絕對的熱損利率多少就不能用 |
| 00:07:03,000 | 00:07:06,000 | 而是他要按照他的風險管理 |
| 00:07:06,000 | 00:07:08,000 | 不同的品質 |
| 00:07:08,000 | 00:07:11,000 | 那麼要經過後面的製程去調整 |
| 00:07:11,000 | 00:07:12,000 | 你全部都查了嗎 |
| 00:07:12,000 | 00:07:13,000 | 十個月的你都查了嗎 |
| 00:07:13,000 | 00:07:14,000 | 十個月你都查 |
| 00:07:14,000 | 00:07:17,000 | 待會你出去把資料給我 |
| 00:07:17,000 | 00:07:18,000 | 那我再問你 |
| 00:07:18,000 | 00:07:21,000 | 中央宣布要原本下架的油 |
| 00:07:21,000 | 00:07:22,000 | 要重新上架 |
| 00:07:22,000 | 00:07:24,000 | 但是台北台中高雄 |
| 00:07:24,000 | 00:07:28,000 | 已經明確表明沒有完全確認安全之前 |
| 00:07:28,000 | 00:07:29,000 | 是不會跟進的 |
| 00:07:29,000 | 00:07:31,000 | 所以現在有哪些縣市 |
| 00:07:31,000 | 00:07:33,000 | 還是哪些產品已經上架 |
| 00:07:33,000 | 00:07:34,000 | 好 |
| 00:07:34,000 | 00:07:35,000 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:07:35,000 | 00:07:39,000 | 我們是根據這個食安法52條的規定 |
| 00:07:39,000 | 00:07:41,000 | 經過我們檢驗完成之後 |
| 00:07:41,000 | 00:07:42,000 | 我們重新 |
| 00:07:42,000 | 00:07:45,000 | 因為這個前面是預防性下架 |
| 00:07:45,000 | 00:07:47,000 | 並不是他檢出有問題 |
| 00:07:47,000 | 00:07:48,000 | 因為我們當時候呢 |
| 00:07:48,000 | 00:07:51,000 | 這個認為這個上下游的資料 |
| 00:07:51,000 | 00:07:53,000 | 沒有辦法完全確認的情形之下 |
| 00:07:53,000 | 00:07:56,000 | 全面性的4到6月預防性下架 |
| 00:07:56,000 | 00:07:58,000 | 這是超前部署啦 |
| 00:07:58,000 | 00:08:00,000 | 讓委員可以安心 |
| 00:08:00,000 | 00:08:02,000 | 我現在講的是 |
| 00:08:02,000 | 00:08:03,000 | 確認沒有問題 |
| 00:08:03,000 | 00:08:05,000 | 這些縣市說不要 |
| 00:08:05,000 | 00:08:06,000 | 他不配合的 |
| 00:08:06,000 | 00:08:08,000 | 你到底現在做的怎麼樣 |
| 00:08:08,000 | 00:08:09,000 | 他們有沒有完全接受 |
| 00:08:09,000 | 00:08:11,000 | 當然就我們來講 |
| 00:08:11,000 | 00:08:14,000 | 這個19P已經是確認安全 |
| 00:08:14,000 | 00:08:17,000 | 那這些縣市哪些產品上架 |
| 00:08:17,000 | 00:08:19,000 | 你只要回答我這個就好 |
| 00:08:19,000 | 00:08:21,000 | 他有他特別的考量的話 |
| 00:08:21,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 我們就尊重嘛 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:24,000 | 不然如果到今天 |
| 00:08:24,000 | 00:08:26,000 | 沒有任何地方政府願意跟進 |
| 00:08:26,000 | 00:08:29,000 | 也沒有業者願意配合出貨上架 |
| 00:08:29,000 | 00:08:31,000 | 那就表示地方政府 |
| 00:08:31,000 | 00:08:33,000 | 業者跟消費者都認為 |
| 00:08:33,000 | 00:08:35,000 | 這個疑慮還沒排除嘛 |
| 00:08:35,000 | 00:08:36,000 | 為什麼只有中央這麼急呢 |
| 00:08:36,000 | 00:08:37,000 | 你們急什麼 |
| 00:08:37,000 | 00:08:39,000 | 我們必須依法行政 |
| 00:08:39,000 | 00:08:41,000 | 所以我們也調查清楚了 |
| 00:08:41,000 | 00:08:43,000 | 一個重大時代檢驗清楚了 |
| 00:08:43,000 | 00:08:46,000 | 走到年產品有沒有真的要重新上架 |
| 00:08:46,000 | 00:08:47,000 | 都無法決定 |
| 00:08:47,000 | 00:08:48,000 | 也沒有辦法確定 |
| 00:08:48,000 | 00:08:50,000 | 這已經不是科學問題了啦 |
| 00:08:50,000 | 00:08:52,000 | 已經確定了 |
| 00:08:52,000 | 00:08:54,000 | 這個19P已經確認了 |
| 00:08:54,000 | 00:08:55,000 | 那我再問 |
| 00:08:55,000 | 00:08:57,000 | 你們7月27號公布的調查內容 |
| 00:08:57,000 | 00:09:00,000 | 有一些專家有不同的見解 |
| 00:09:00,000 | 00:09:03,000 | 那我今天就用你們的報告來請教你們 |
| 00:09:03,000 | 00:09:06,000 | 你們報告中把中年發生的本田超標的原因 |
| 00:09:06,000 | 00:09:09,000 | 指向是原料異常跟製程條件嘛 |
| 00:09:09,000 | 00:09:10,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:09:10,000 | 00:09:11,000 | 原料的部分你們認為是 |
| 00:09:11,000 | 00:09:14,000 | 巴西豆大豆這個熱水率的問題嘛 |
| 00:09:14,000 | 00:09:16,000 | 製程的問題是不是包括 |
| 00:09:16,000 | 00:09:19,000 | 脫膠白土添加乾燥條件的問題 |
| 00:09:19,000 | 00:09:20,000 | 是這樣嗎 |
| 00:09:20,000 | 00:09:21,000 | 不完全是 |
| 00:09:21,000 | 00:09:24,000 | 這整個的簡單的結論應該是這樣講 |
| 00:09:24,000 | 00:09:27,000 | 就是它的這個原料的部分 |
| 00:09:27,000 | 00:09:31,000 | 那麼有它的這個風險分級的要件 |
| 00:09:31,000 | 00:09:33,000 | 不同的來源 |
| 00:09:33,000 | 00:09:34,000 | 它的風險不同 |
| 00:09:34,000 | 00:09:36,000 | 所以必須要經過不同的風險 |
| 00:09:36,000 | 00:09:38,000 | 去調整它後面的製程 |
| 00:09:38,000 | 00:09:41,000 | 所以它在沒有按照風險等級 |
| 00:09:41,000 | 00:09:43,000 | 那麼去調整後面的製程 |
| 00:09:43,000 | 00:09:46,000 | 而造成有幾批的這個本田比 |
| 00:09:46,000 | 00:09:51,000 | 所以你認為說這個產地也是問題就對了 |
| 00:09:51,000 | 00:09:53,000 | 產地不是絕對的問題 |
| 00:09:53,000 | 00:09:55,000 | 可是它有風險的不同 |
| 00:09:55,000 | 00:09:57,000 | 應該要做風險的分析 |
| 00:09:57,000 | 00:10:00,000 | 那我再問你進口巴西大豆的業者你總共有幾家 |
| 00:10:00,000 | 00:10:04,000 | 巴西進口大豆的業者總共有幾家 |
| 00:10:04,000 | 00:10:06,000 | 你說是進口商嗎 |
| 00:10:06,000 | 00:10:08,000 | 進口商這個我們就要查一下 |
| 00:10:08,000 | 00:10:11,000 | 對呀你們查了幾家調查了哪些項目跟內容 |
| 00:10:11,000 | 00:10:12,000 | 查了之後再提供給委員 |
| 00:10:12,000 | 00:10:13,000 | 也給我們嘛 |
| 00:10:13,000 | 00:10:15,000 | 風險不是現在這個已經很明確啦 |
| 00:10:15,000 | 00:10:17,000 | 巴西產地乾燥方式 |
| 00:10:17,000 | 00:10:19,000 | 原料PAHS |
| 00:10:19,000 | 00:10:22,000 | 精煉能力及HACCP失靈 |
| 00:10:22,000 | 00:10:25,000 | 全部都是你們報告認定的風險 |
| 00:10:25,000 | 00:10:27,000 | 那其他使用巴西大豆的自由廠 |
| 00:10:27,000 | 00:10:29,000 | 難道不符合風險條件嗎 |
| 00:10:29,000 | 00:10:30,000 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:10:30,000 | 00:10:33,000 | 我們也了解其他的廠的情形 |
| 00:10:33,000 | 00:10:34,000 | 所以其他的這個大廠 |
| 00:10:34,000 | 00:10:37,000 | 它其實有做相關的風險管控 |
| 00:10:37,000 | 00:10:41,000 | 比如說它會採取混豆的方式來降低風險 |
| 00:10:41,000 | 00:10:44,000 | 或者是在後面的製程當中加強抽驗 |
| 00:10:44,000 | 00:10:46,000 | 來確認它的這個風險 |
| 00:10:46,000 | 00:10:48,000 | 然後控制住它的風險 |
| 00:10:48,000 | 00:10:50,000 | 然後也會在製程上去做調整 |
| 00:10:50,000 | 00:10:53,000 | 所以其他的廠有類似的做法 |
| 00:10:53,000 | 00:10:54,000 | 所以不會完全 |
| 00:10:54,000 | 00:10:57,000 | 那這個廠就沒有把這個風險拉起來 |
| 00:10:57,000 | 00:10:59,000 | 也就是沒有全面調查嘛對不對 |
| 00:10:59,000 | 00:11:00,000 | 那第二個我再問 |
| 00:11:00,000 | 00:11:03,000 | 其他使用油脂的工廠製程風險 |
| 00:11:03,000 | 00:11:05,000 | 也有沒有全面調查呢 |
| 00:11:05,000 | 00:11:06,000 | 有都全面調查 |
| 00:11:06,000 | 00:11:08,000 | 另外三家的大廠 |
| 00:11:08,000 | 00:11:10,000 | 提供這個原有的 |
| 00:11:10,000 | 00:11:12,000 | 每一個廠都查了嗎 |
| 00:11:12,000 | 00:11:13,000 | 都查了都查了 |
| 00:11:13,000 | 00:11:14,000 | 都查了都查了 |
| 00:11:14,000 | 00:11:16,000 | 然後也抽驗了 |
| 00:11:16,000 | 00:11:18,000 | 那個抽驗的這個報告 |
| 00:11:18,000 | 00:11:19,000 | 昨天也都發佈了 |
| 00:11:19,000 | 00:11:21,000 | 全部都合格 |
| 00:11:21,000 | 00:11:23,000 | 好那我再問一下 |
| 00:11:23,000 | 00:11:24,000 | 這個下一題 |
| 00:11:24,000 | 00:11:25,000 | 今年4月14號 |
| 00:11:25,000 | 00:11:27,000 | 三讀通過兒童托育服務法 |
| 00:11:27,000 | 00:11:29,000 | 那相關執法本來預計 |
| 00:11:29,000 | 00:11:32,000 | 一年內要完全完成 |
| 00:11:32,000 | 00:11:33,000 | 那5月8號總統公告 |
| 00:11:33,000 | 00:11:34,000 | 到現在已經兩個多月了 |
| 00:11:34,000 | 00:11:38,000 | 那才出來一個施行的細則草案 |
| 00:11:38,000 | 00:11:39,000 | 那剩下的19個 |
| 00:11:39,000 | 00:11:41,000 | 你們什麼時候 |
| 00:11:41,000 | 00:11:42,000 | 這個一年內有辦法弄出來嗎 |
| 00:11:42,000 | 00:11:44,000 | 會我們會在這個一年內 |
| 00:11:44,000 | 00:11:45,000 | 來把它完成 |
| 00:11:45,000 | 00:11:46,000 | 這麼多執法 |
| 00:11:46,000 | 00:11:47,000 | 你的優先順序是什麼 |
| 00:11:47,000 | 00:11:50,000 | 都是在進行當中 |
| 00:11:50,000 | 00:11:52,000 | 沒有什麼優先順序 |
| 00:11:52,000 | 00:11:54,000 | 像今天事情的管理辦法 |
| 00:11:54,000 | 00:11:55,000 | 它是比較敏感的 |
| 00:11:55,000 | 00:11:56,000 | 對對對 |
| 00:11:56,000 | 00:11:57,000 | 這個東西也是父母 |
| 00:11:57,000 | 00:11:58,000 | 最關心的問題 |
| 00:11:58,000 | 00:12:00,000 | 你們打算什麼時候預告 |
| 00:12:00,000 | 00:12:01,000 | 我們現在已經 |
| 00:12:01,000 | 00:12:04,000 | 召開了兩場的焦點團體 |
| 00:12:04,000 | 00:12:06,000 | 那麼也討論了 |
| 00:12:06,000 | 00:12:08,000 | 然後專家學者也討論了 |
| 00:12:08,000 | 00:12:10,000 | 那麼接下來我們會進一步 |
| 00:12:10,000 | 00:12:12,000 | 擴大這個收集意見 |
| 00:12:12,000 | 00:12:13,000 | 我們現在的草案 |
| 00:12:13,000 | 00:12:14,000 | 所以你一年之內一定會出來嗎 |
| 00:12:14,000 | 00:12:15,000 | 會會會 |
| 00:12:15,000 | 00:12:17,000 | 因為我們草案已經差不多完成 |
| 00:12:17,000 | 00:12:19,000 | 在8月份就會有出稿了 |
| 00:12:19,000 | 00:12:20,000 | 好那我再問一下 |
| 00:12:20,000 | 00:12:23,000 | 問台南的這個山崎拖欲的案件 |
| 00:12:23,000 | 00:12:24,000 | 今年1月到7月 |
| 00:12:24,000 | 00:12:25,000 | 台南陸續爆發 |
| 00:12:25,000 | 00:12:28,000 | 或是因為這個司法癥結 |
| 00:12:28,000 | 00:12:29,000 | 引發社會高度關注的 |
| 00:12:29,000 | 00:12:33,000 | 這個重大居家拖欲傷害違法的事件 |
| 00:12:33,000 | 00:12:35,000 | 那第一案是永康案 |
| 00:12:35,000 | 00:12:37,000 | 這名女嬰大概是2025年 |
| 00:12:37,000 | 00:12:39,000 | 12月1號開始送託 |
| 00:12:39,000 | 00:12:41,000 | 到2026年2月10號 |
| 00:12:41,000 | 00:12:43,000 | 就發生嚴重的腦傷 |
| 00:12:43,000 | 00:12:45,000 | 前後大概71天 |
| 00:12:45,000 | 00:12:48,000 | 依照規定新收託兒童原則上 |
| 00:12:48,000 | 00:12:51,000 | 30日內就要完成訪視 |
| 00:12:51,000 | 00:12:53,000 | 那在這71天的拖欲期間 |
| 00:12:53,000 | 00:12:56,000 | 台南市政府總共訪視了幾次 |
| 00:12:58,000 | 00:12:59,000 | 這個我們調查一下 |
| 00:12:59,000 | 00:13:00,000 | 你都不知道啊 |
| 00:13:00,000 | 00:13:02,000 | 這個是 |
| 00:13:02,000 | 00:13:03,000 | 也就是說 |
| 00:13:03,000 | 00:13:05,000 | 台南市政府都沒有跟 |
| 00:13:05,000 | 00:13:07,000 | 我們衛福部來做通報嗎 |
| 00:13:07,000 | 00:13:08,000 | 也沒有做一些依據 |
| 00:13:08,000 | 00:13:10,000 | 有沒有回報嗎 |
| 00:13:11,000 | 00:13:13,000 | 你們也沒有去了解嗎 |
| 00:13:13,000 | 00:13:14,000 | 我們來了解一下 |
| 00:13:14,000 | 00:13:16,000 | 因為這個是2025 |
| 00:13:16,000 | 00:13:17,000 | 你不要等出了事情 |
| 00:13:17,000 | 00:13:19,000 | 小孩子受傷了 |
| 00:13:19,000 | 00:13:21,000 | 或者是發生了這個悲劇之後 |
| 00:13:21,000 | 00:13:23,000 | 再來急著調查 |
| 00:13:23,000 | 00:13:24,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:13:24,000 | 00:13:25,000 | 好 |
| 00:13:25,000 | 00:13:27,000 | 這個我們了解一下 |
| 00:13:27,000 | 00:13:28,000 | 那第二案我再問你 |
| 00:13:28,000 | 00:13:29,000 | 麻豆案 |
| 00:13:29,000 | 00:13:32,000 | 這些女子是登記保姆 |
| 00:13:32,000 | 00:13:36,000 | 向政府申報收託兩名兒童 |
| 00:13:36,000 | 00:13:39,000 | 那實際上卻沒有登記的張姓女子 |
| 00:13:39,000 | 00:13:42,000 | 卻與那個沒有登記的張姓女子 |
| 00:13:42,000 | 00:13:45,000 | 他共同照顧了六名幼兒 |
| 00:13:45,000 | 00:13:46,000 | 那檢方認定 |
| 00:13:46,000 | 00:13:48,000 | 這個 |
| 00:13:48,000 | 00:13:49,000 | 涉嫌犯行期間 |
| 00:13:49,000 | 00:13:51,000 | 從2025年3月1號 |
| 00:13:51,000 | 00:13:52,000 | 持續到12月5日 |
| 00:13:52,000 | 00:13:54,000 | 長達九個月 |
| 00:13:54,000 | 00:13:56,000 | 總共涉及六名幼童 |
| 00:13:56,000 | 00:13:57,000 | 這六名幼童 |
| 00:13:57,000 | 00:13:59,000 | 各自是哪一天開始送託 |
| 00:13:59,000 | 00:14:02,000 | 衛福部目前有掌握嗎 |
| 00:14:02,000 | 00:14:05,000 | 我想這個當然是地方在處理 |
| 00:14:05,000 | 00:14:06,000 | 你們都不知道 |
| 00:14:06,000 | 00:14:07,000 | 但是呢 |
| 00:14:07,000 | 00:14:08,000 | 如果委員 |
| 00:14:08,000 | 00:14:10,000 | 我們會來了解一下 |
| 00:14:10,000 | 00:14:11,000 | 地方的處理情形 |
| 00:14:11,000 | 00:14:13,000 | 你們本來就要去處理 |
| 00:14:13,000 | 00:14:15,000 | 這種都是已經出事的事情 |
| 00:14:15,000 | 00:14:16,000 | 你們都沒有掌握 |
| 00:14:16,000 | 00:14:17,000 | 那你們在幹什麼 |
| 00:14:17,000 | 00:14:18,000 | 所以地方都在處理啦 |
| 00:14:18,000 | 00:14:19,000 | 可是你們要掌握啊 |
| 00:14:19,000 | 00:14:21,000 | 我問你們都不知道 |
| 00:14:21,000 | 00:14:22,000 | 你們不主管機關嗎 |
| 00:14:22,000 | 00:14:23,000 | 我們來掌握 |
| 00:14:23,000 | 00:14:24,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:14:24,000 | 00:14:25,000 | 第三案 |
| 00:14:25,000 | 00:14:28,000 | 還有這名男童 |
| 00:14:28,000 | 00:14:30,000 | 送託只有兩到三天就死亡 |
| 00:14:30,000 | 00:14:32,000 | 而且他不是只有帶一個 |
| 00:14:32,000 | 00:14:34,000 | 兩個小孩都是他的 |
| 00:14:34,000 | 00:14:36,000 | 他有收費的是三個小孩 |
| 00:14:36,000 | 00:14:38,000 | 女性女子沒有托育資格 |
| 00:14:38,000 | 00:14:41,000 | 也沒有辦理居家托育登記 |
| 00:14:41,000 | 00:14:42,000 | 卻可以在這個臉書 |
| 00:14:42,000 | 00:14:44,000 | 這個社群平台裡面 |
| 00:14:44,000 | 00:14:46,000 | 來刊登訊息 |
| 00:14:46,000 | 00:14:48,000 | 招攬家長送託 |
| 00:14:48,000 | 00:14:49,000 | 因為他沒有登記 |
| 00:14:49,000 | 00:14:50,000 | 正常的 |
| 00:14:50,000 | 00:14:51,000 | 收託申報30日內 |
| 00:14:51,000 | 00:14:54,000 | 訪視當然不會出現 |
| 00:14:54,000 | 00:14:55,000 | 也不知道 |
| 00:14:55,000 | 00:14:56,000 | 所以透過這種網路招攬的 |
| 00:14:56,000 | 00:14:57,000 | 未登記的托育 |
| 00:14:57,000 | 00:14:59,000 | 未來用什麼方法 |
| 00:14:59,000 | 00:15:02,000 | 來這個解決 |
| 00:15:02,000 | 00:15:04,000 | 我們當然都會把有照的 |
| 00:15:04,000 | 00:15:07,000 | 合格的保姆都公開資訊 |
| 00:15:07,000 | 00:15:08,000 | 所以我現在講的是 |
| 00:15:08,000 | 00:15:10,000 | 我現在講的是他真的違法的 |
| 00:15:10,000 | 00:15:12,000 | 讓民眾在 |
| 00:15:12,000 | 00:15:13,000 | 送託的時候 |
| 00:15:13,000 | 00:15:15,000 | 要去選擇我們有照的這些 |
| 00:15:15,000 | 00:15:16,000 | 你們這個不管嗎 |
| 00:15:16,000 | 00:15:17,000 | 像這個你現在看這個 |
| 00:15:17,000 | 00:15:18,000 | 他們 |
| 00:15:18,000 | 00:15:20,000 | 這個當然在兒少法 |
| 00:15:20,000 | 00:15:22,000 | 或未來我們的兒童多餘扶法 |
| 00:15:22,000 | 00:15:23,000 | 都會有罰則 |
| 00:15:23,000 | 00:15:24,000 | 不要等事情 |
| 00:15:24,000 | 00:15:26,000 | 我們都有公開的訊息 |
| 00:15:26,000 | 00:15:28,000 | 不要等事情發生了之後 |
| 00:15:28,000 | 00:15:29,000 | 才來檢討 |
| 00:15:29,000 | 00:15:30,000 | 我們現在已經幫你 |
| 00:15:30,000 | 00:15:31,000 | 發現這個問題了 |
| 00:15:31,000 | 00:15:32,000 | 我覺得你會不會 |
| 00:15:32,000 | 00:15:34,000 | 趕快把這個東西加進去 |
| 00:15:34,000 | 00:15:35,000 | 然後未來怎麼樣 |
| 00:15:35,000 | 00:15:38,000 | 我們還是會加強去宣導 |
| 00:15:38,000 | 00:15:39,000 | 其實我們現在有照的 |
| 00:15:39,000 | 00:15:42,000 | 都有在網路上公開資訊 |
| 00:15:42,000 | 00:15:44,000 | 那麼民眾在選擇保姆的時候 |
| 00:15:44,000 | 00:15:45,000 | 我不是問你 |
| 00:15:45,000 | 00:15:47,000 | 你們有沒有公布 |
| 00:15:47,000 | 00:15:48,000 | 我是問你說 |
| 00:15:48,000 | 00:15:50,000 | 這些違法隨便刊登的 |
| 00:15:50,000 | 00:15:52,000 | 你們用什麼方法去取締 |
| 00:15:52,000 | 00:15:53,000 | 有 |
| 00:15:53,000 | 00:15:55,000 | 有那個違法的部分 |
| 00:15:55,000 | 00:15:57,000 | 當然要加強查緝 |
| 00:15:57,000 | 00:15:58,000 | 那合法的 |
| 00:15:58,000 | 00:15:59,000 | 我們要讓大家 |
| 00:15:59,000 | 00:16:00,000 | 都很清楚 |
| 00:16:00,000 | 00:16:01,000 | 盡量的 |
| 00:16:01,000 | 00:16:03,000 | 應該要去選擇合法的保姆 |
| 00:16:03,000 | 00:16:04,000 | 所以三個案件 |
| 00:16:04,000 | 00:16:06,000 | 都沒有列入重大案件就對了 |
| 00:16:06,000 | 00:16:07,000 | 一個死掉了 |
| 00:16:07,000 | 00:16:08,000 | 死掉有列 |
| 00:16:08,000 | 00:16:09,000 | 有 |
| 00:16:09,000 | 00:16:11,000 | 列在我們保護師的狀態 |
| 00:16:11,000 | 00:16:13,000 | 應該是有討論 |
| 00:16:13,000 | 00:16:14,000 | 但是詳細的 |
| 00:16:14,000 | 00:16:16,000 | 你們是幹什麼的 |
| 00:16:16,000 | 00:16:18,000 | 我們這個都有討論過 |
| 00:16:18,000 | 00:16:19,000 | 都有開會 |
| 00:16:19,000 | 00:16:23,000 | 都有一些跟地方的聯繫的討論 |
| 00:16:23,000 | 00:16:26,000 | 那這是委員突然間 |
| 00:16:26,000 | 00:16:27,000 | 提的這個案子 |
| 00:16:27,000 | 00:16:29,000 | 詳細的部分我們再 |
| 00:16:29,000 | 00:16:31,000 | 我都看到了你們都不知道 |
| 00:16:31,000 | 00:16:33,000 | 你們為何那麼多人要幹什麼的 |
| 00:16:33,000 | 00:16:35,000 | 當然委員特別關心這一案 |
| 00:16:35,000 | 00:16:37,000 | 那我們來了解之後 |
| 00:16:37,000 | 00:16:39,000 | 把這個資料收集之後 |
| 00:16:39,000 | 00:16:40,000 | 再提供給委員 |
| 00:16:40,000 | 00:16:41,000 | 好盡快來 |
| 00:16:41,000 | 00:16:42,000 | 謝謝 |
| 00:16:42,000 | 00:16:43,000 | 好謝謝 |
| 00:16:43,000 | 00:16:46,000 | 謝謝裘正俊委員的發言 |
| 00:16:46,000 | 00:16:48,000 | 也謝謝部長大勳 |
| 00:16:48,000 | 00:16:50,000 | 下回我們請廖偉祥委員發言 |