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林月琴 @ 第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:01,000 | 選打 |
| 00:00:08,240 | 00:00:12,180 | 主席麻煩我們的法務部參事 |
| 00:00:12,180 | 00:00:14,720 | 來法務部王參事 |
| 00:00:21,200 | 00:00:23,360 | 委員好 參事長好 早 |
| 00:00:23,360 | 00:00:27,660 | 那最近我覺得三中一題大家受到社會很高度的關注 |
| 00:00:27,860 | 00:00:30,820 | 不少民眾大家都希望能夠尊嚴走完 |
| 00:00:30,820 | 00:00:32,159 | 人生最後一哩路 |
| 00:00:32,520 | 00:00:35,660 | 可是這也是因為現行病人自主權利法 |
| 00:00:35,660 | 00:00:37,900 | 跟安寧緩和醫療條例 |
| 00:00:37,900 | 00:00:39,740 | 並未明文規定說 |
| 00:00:39,740 | 00:00:44,400 | 我們的斷食三中導致社會各界對法律的界線 |
| 00:00:44,400 | 00:00:45,680 | 產生不少的疑慮 |
| 00:00:46,240 | 00:00:48,940 | 那衛福部跟安寧醫學會都表示 |
| 00:00:49,320 | 00:00:52,040 | 斷食三中並不等於安寧療護 |
| 00:00:52,040 | 00:00:54,420 | 那也可能事實上有法律風險 |
| 00:00:54,420 | 00:00:56,519 | 所以問法務部如果病人表明 |
| 00:00:56,620 | 00:00:59,420 | 要透過不吃不喝結束生命 |
| 00:00:59,420 | 00:01:02,160 | 而家屬或醫護人員選擇配合不勸阻 |
| 00:01:02,160 | 00:01:05,020 | 甚至停止提供食物獲得水分 |
| 00:01:05,020 | 00:01:08,620 | 那是否涉及到刑法的第275條 |
| 00:01:08,620 | 00:01:14,100 | 那還有遺棄致死罪跟過失致死罪及或其他的刑事責任 |
| 00:01:14,100 | 00:01:15,440 | 如果有爭議的話 |
| 00:01:15,440 | 00:01:20,800 | 那衛福部是否會去跟衛福部一起研擬好訂定之一 |
| 00:01:20,800 | 00:01:24,680 | 來明確化劃分哪些是屬於尊重病人自主 |
| 00:01:24,680 | 00:01:26,240 | 哪些是可以予約法界 |
| 00:01:26,240 | 00:01:29,780 | 避免家屬跟醫護人員因法律不明而承擔風險 |
| 00:01:32,180 | 00:01:34,580 | 跟召委報告 |
| 00:01:34,920 | 00:01:37,860 | 因為這個議題真的是牽涉的 |
| 00:01:40,060 | 00:01:43,020 | 爭議範圍很廣也很大也很深 |
| 00:01:43,020 | 00:01:46,600 | 因為這個涉及到生命法意 |
| 00:01:46,600 | 00:01:49,400 | 還有憲政的價值 |
| 00:01:49,400 | 00:01:51,060 | 還有醫療的倫理 |
| 00:01:51,060 | 00:01:53,440 | 所以在這個部分目前 |
| 00:01:53,460 | 00:01:56,259 | 我們知道有病人自主權利法 |
| 00:01:56,259 | 00:02:01,280 | 那這個是屬於比較消極的 |
| 00:02:01,280 | 00:02:04,179 | 然後是醫護人員來配合 |
| 00:02:04,179 | 00:02:09,039 | 那但是如果是安樂死或者是尊嚴善終的話 |
| 00:02:09,039 | 00:02:12,760 | 那這個可能是有比較積極的 |
| 00:02:12,760 | 00:02:17,260 | 就是主動的安樂死或者是依住死亡的這樣的一個情況 |
| 00:02:17,260 | 00:02:23,260 | 那本部的立場我們刑法是我們的主管法規 |
| 00:02:23,280 | 00:02:26,980 | 那原則上當然是禁止故意剝奪他人的生命 |
| 00:02:26,980 | 00:02:30,620 | 但所以如果像以安樂死來說的話 |
| 00:02:30,620 | 00:02:32,660 | 如果沒有法律明文規定 |
| 00:02:32,660 | 00:02:37,959 | 那依法就是會涉及刑法殺人罪或者是加工自殺罪的規定 |
| 00:02:37,959 | 00:02:40,140 | 那當然如果立法政策決定 |
| 00:02:40,140 | 00:02:43,239 | 例外容許規定情形的安樂死 |
| 00:02:43,239 | 00:02:45,700 | 那我們一定要在構成要件 |
| 00:02:45,700 | 00:02:50,140 | 還有程序跟監督機制跟免責範圍這些 |
| 00:02:50,140 | 00:02:52,440 | 面向都要做一個刑法的特別規定 |
| 00:02:52,520 | 00:02:54,100 | 我想說我剛才有問法務部 |
| 00:02:54,100 | 00:02:56,760 | 未來是不是可以跟衛福部一起共同討論 |
| 00:02:56,760 | 00:02:58,440 | 要有些指引出來 |
| 00:02:58,440 | 00:02:59,340 | 這可以做到嗎 |
| 00:02:59,340 | 00:03:03,640 | 如果立法政策還有社會的共識是要走這個方向的話 |
| 00:03:03,640 | 00:03:11,880 | 那本部一定是會盡力的協助衛福部來訂定相關的規則規範 |
| 00:03:11,880 | 00:03:13,940 | 好謝謝陳司法那陳司法請回 |
| 00:03:13,940 | 00:03:16,440 | 那接下來要請衛福部的部長 |
| 00:03:16,440 | 00:03:19,520 | 那部長現行必能自主權力法規定 |
| 00:03:19,520 | 00:03:22,560 | 病人必須符合五種法定情形 |
| 00:03:22,560 | 00:03:27,020 | 包括末期病人不可逆轉昏迷永久植入人 |
| 00:03:27,020 | 00:03:30,620 | 或是急重度失智以及主管機關公告的其他情形 |
| 00:03:30,620 | 00:03:36,220 | 才能依照那個預立醫療決定停止維持生命治療 |
| 00:03:36,220 | 00:03:38,660 | 可是這些條件到底是誰說了算 |
| 00:03:38,660 | 00:03:42,120 | 是組織醫師一個人決定還是要其他專科醫師一起確認 |
| 00:03:42,120 | 00:03:44,420 | 如果醫療團隊意見不同的話 |
| 00:03:44,420 | 00:03:47,220 | 到底最後是由誰拍板決定 |
| 00:03:47,220 | 00:03:49,120 | 好跟委員說明 |
| 00:03:49,120 | 00:03:51,920 | 當然在現行的病主法裡面 |
| 00:03:51,920 | 00:03:54,220 | 因為我們也在進行修法 |
| 00:03:54,220 | 00:03:56,720 | 在現行的病主法裡面 |
| 00:03:56,720 | 00:04:03,920 | 是要第一個階段是要有兩位具相關專科資格的醫師去做診斷 |
| 00:04:03,920 | 00:04:05,620 | 看看有沒有符合這些條件 |
| 00:04:05,620 | 00:04:06,620 | 這是第一步 |
| 00:04:06,620 | 00:04:10,820 | 那第二步呢他要在召會這個安寧的團隊 |
| 00:04:10,820 | 00:04:14,820 | 而且這個召會至少要有兩次的召會去確認 |
| 00:04:14,820 | 00:04:19,519 | 然後就啟動後續的這個預立醫療決定的這個執行 |
| 00:04:19,519 | 00:04:21,519 | 程序上是要這樣 |
| 00:04:21,519 | 00:04:26,820 | 好那我覺得什麼時候才可以開始預立醫療決定 |
| 00:04:26,820 | 00:04:30,520 | 而且是只要曾經符合條件就可以執行 |
| 00:04:30,520 | 00:04:33,620 | 還是每一次都要必須要重新確認病人 |
| 00:04:33,620 | 00:04:36,320 | 目前現在是否符合資格 |
| 00:04:36,320 | 00:04:40,620 | 還有沒有一套全國一致的那個判斷的標準 |
| 00:04:40,620 | 00:04:43,719 | 還有避免不同醫院有不同做法影響病人的權益 |
| 00:04:44,720 | 00:04:49,220 | 跟委員說明就是預立醫療決定就是隨時都可以進行 |
| 00:04:49,220 | 00:04:54,220 | 只要經過ACP預立醫療照護諮商的過程就可以去簽署 |
| 00:04:54,220 | 00:04:57,220 | 只是要啟動的時候就像委員提到的 |
| 00:04:57,220 | 00:05:01,420 | 因為這個病人的病況他是會變化的 |
| 00:05:01,420 | 00:05:04,220 | 所以等於是每一次要啟動 |
| 00:05:04,220 | 00:05:06,720 | 按照現在的做法是每一次要啟動 |
| 00:05:06,720 | 00:05:08,720 | 當然都要經過剛剛的程序 |
| 00:05:08,720 | 00:05:13,420 | 兩位相關專科醫師判斷有沒有符合這些條件 |
| 00:05:13,420 | 00:05:15,420 | 因為我們現在的條件 |
| 00:05:15,420 | 00:05:18,420 | 前面四款是比較明確 |
| 00:05:18,420 | 00:05:21,920 | 第五款就是由我們這個來公布 |
| 00:05:21,920 | 00:05:23,920 | 大概都是屬於一些罕見疾病 |
| 00:05:23,920 | 00:05:28,420 | 所以執行上我們都有相關的這個訓練課程 |
| 00:05:28,420 | 00:05:32,420 | 跟一些指引來讓大家知道怎麼執行 |
| 00:05:32,420 | 00:05:34,420 | 好 那部長請回號 |
| 00:05:34,420 | 00:05:36,420 | 接下來請國教署署長 |
| 00:05:37,420 | 00:05:40,420 | 好 請國教署署長 |
| 00:05:43,420 | 00:05:48,420 | 署長 一直以來我就非常關心 |
| 00:05:48,420 | 00:05:52,420 | 而且過去在民間也在處理所謂的不當對待 |
| 00:05:52,420 | 00:05:56,920 | 那台北市事實上四年就扒起重大的惡孽 |
| 00:05:56,920 | 00:05:59,420 | 大概超過了100位以上 |
| 00:05:59,420 | 00:06:03,420 | 大概115位的孩子受到很大傷害 |
| 00:06:03,420 | 00:06:08,420 | 而且這扒起案件高達有618次的不當管教 |
| 00:06:08,420 | 00:06:10,420 | 甚至最讓人家覺得心痛的 |
| 00:06:10,420 | 00:06:12,420 | 在台北市事實上有性侵跟性毀屑 |
| 00:06:12,420 | 00:06:16,420 | 已經超過半數了 有66件 |
| 00:06:16,420 | 00:06:18,420 | 在這樣的比例底下 |
| 00:06:18,420 | 00:06:20,420 | 當然我們的蔣事長就講得很好聽 |
| 00:06:20,420 | 00:06:22,420 | 尤其在培若米札案件之後 |
| 00:06:22,420 | 00:06:25,420 | 他有出來道歉說自己是台北市的大家長 |
| 00:06:25,420 | 00:06:27,420 | 有責任保護孩子 會檢討改進 |
| 00:06:27,420 | 00:06:31,420 | 讓法令與政策更完備 避免類似的事情發生 |
| 00:06:31,420 | 00:06:33,420 | 講完之後呢 |
| 00:06:33,420 | 00:06:36,420 | 三年又發生了七起的重大惡孽案件 |
| 00:06:36,420 | 00:06:39,420 | 造成這麼多孩子的傷害 |
| 00:06:39,420 | 00:06:41,420 | 所以就想來問部長幾個 |
| 00:06:41,420 | 00:06:44,420 | 目前我們現在 我們的 |
| 00:06:44,420 | 00:06:48,420 | 來我們辦公室跟我們討論的案子裡面 |
| 00:06:48,420 | 00:06:50,420 | 我們想問幾個 |
| 00:06:50,420 | 00:06:52,420 | 就是說到底心理諮商依法規 |
| 00:06:52,420 | 00:06:54,420 | 我到底可做不可做 |
| 00:06:54,420 | 00:06:58,420 | 培若米札案3月12號我們開完記者會 |
| 00:06:58,420 | 00:07:00,420 | 就可以申請心理諮商 |
| 00:07:00,420 | 00:07:03,420 | 可是之前他是完全不能申請心理諮商 |
| 00:07:03,420 | 00:07:07,420 | 為什麼在2024年3月12號 |
| 00:07:07,420 | 00:07:09,420 | 我剛進來開完記者會 |
| 00:07:09,420 | 00:07:11,420 | 就可以申請心理諮商 |
| 00:07:11,420 | 00:07:13,420 | 可是在之前他們是求助我們 |
| 00:07:13,420 | 00:07:15,420 | 那問題來了 |
| 00:07:15,420 | 00:07:17,420 | 如果他2024年申請心理諮商可以 |
| 00:07:17,420 | 00:07:19,420 | 為什麼2025年又加幼兒園 |
| 00:07:19,420 | 00:07:21,420 | 又找上我們 |
| 00:07:21,420 | 00:07:23,420 | 說他沒有提供心理諮商的費用 |
| 00:07:23,420 | 00:07:26,420 | 同年2025年一樣8月 |
| 00:07:26,420 | 00:07:28,420 | 為什麼一個進寶兒公館幼兒園 |
| 00:07:28,420 | 00:07:30,420 | 又可以申請心理諮商 |
| 00:07:30,420 | 00:07:34,420 | 法治社會今天一個公部門在執行的時候 |
| 00:07:34,420 | 00:07:36,420 | 一下可以心理諮商一下不行 |
| 00:07:36,420 | 00:07:38,420 | 法定不是說他們可以提供心理諮商嗎 |
| 00:07:38,420 | 00:07:40,420 | 他們可以受到這樣的服務嗎 |
| 00:07:40,420 | 00:07:42,420 | 結果12月一樣 |
| 00:07:42,420 | 00:07:46,420 | 歐洲學校的幼兒園又是不能申請心理諮商 |
| 00:07:46,420 | 00:07:48,420 | 為什麼 |
| 00:07:48,420 | 00:07:50,420 | 有這麼多套標準嗎 |
| 00:07:50,420 | 00:07:52,420 | 那個心理諮商的依據標準是什麼 |
| 00:07:52,420 | 00:07:54,420 | 總部的每次我都在幫跟案家開完記者會 |
| 00:07:54,420 | 00:07:56,420 | 他就可以拿到心理諮商 |
| 00:07:56,420 | 00:07:58,420 | 謝謝委員 |
| 00:07:58,420 | 00:08:00,420 | 基本上是可以的 |
| 00:08:00,420 | 00:08:02,420 | 而且可以我們還有補助 |
| 00:08:02,420 | 00:08:04,420 | 那在114學年 |
| 00:08:04,420 | 00:08:06,420 | 這個學年快要結束這個學年 |
| 00:08:06,420 | 00:08:10,420 | 我們補助了2600萬其中台北市等等22縣市 |
| 00:08:10,420 | 00:08:13,420 | 那政府補助就表示這個是需要 |
| 00:08:13,420 | 00:08:15,420 | 而且也有來協助 |
| 00:08:15,420 | 00:08:17,420 | 那至於特殊個案 |
| 00:08:17,420 | 00:08:18,420 | 剛剛委員已經講了5個個案 |
| 00:08:18,420 | 00:08:19,420 | 有些有有些沒有 |
| 00:08:19,420 | 00:08:21,420 | 這個我們馬上在一天內了解 |
| 00:08:21,420 | 00:08:22,420 | 跟您回報 |
| 00:08:22,420 | 00:08:26,420 | 好那更讓我覺得很難以接受的 |
| 00:08:26,420 | 00:08:28,420 | 為什麼是監視器我不能看 |
| 00:08:28,420 | 00:08:31,420 | 好培羅米達也是因為監視器不能看 |
| 00:08:31,420 | 00:08:34,420 | 就調查報告在2020年的時候不成立 |
| 00:08:34,420 | 00:08:38,420 | 所以2023年結果有多少小孩 |
| 00:08:38,420 | 00:08:40,420 | 一你不處理的時候 |
| 00:08:40,420 | 00:08:42,420 | 隔年39個孩子受害 |
| 00:08:42,420 | 00:08:43,420 | 都是性侵性違憲 |
| 00:08:43,420 | 00:08:45,420 | 所以到底監視器可不可以調查 |
| 00:08:45,420 | 00:08:47,420 | 結果又加又可以 |
| 00:08:47,420 | 00:08:48,420 | 然後進保額又可以 |
| 00:08:48,420 | 00:08:49,420 | 到了歐洲學校 |
| 00:08:49,420 | 00:08:51,420 | 為什麼又不可以 |
| 00:08:51,420 | 00:08:53,420 | 這個標準到底是什麼 |
| 00:08:53,420 | 00:08:55,420 | 甚至我也想問調查報告 |
| 00:08:55,420 | 00:08:57,420 | 培羅米達家長問說 |
| 00:08:57,420 | 00:08:58,420 | 那我的調查結果是什麼 |
| 00:08:58,420 | 00:09:00,420 | 結果市府回答說 |
| 00:09:00,420 | 00:09:02,420 | 你去看新聞稿 |
| 00:09:02,420 | 00:09:03,420 | 看我的聲明稿 |
| 00:09:03,420 | 00:09:05,420 | 為什麼一個調查報告 |
| 00:09:05,420 | 00:09:06,420 | 我不能知道結果 |
| 00:09:06,420 | 00:09:08,420 | 然後我必須看聲明稿 |
| 00:09:08,420 | 00:09:10,420 | 看政府的一個新聞稿 |
| 00:09:10,420 | 00:09:12,420 | 我才知道我的調查結果 |
| 00:09:12,420 | 00:09:16,420 | 我的孩子有沒有被你們在討論的時候 |
| 00:09:16,420 | 00:09:19,420 | 確定他到底有沒有受到傷害 |
| 00:09:19,420 | 00:09:20,420 | 怎麼會去看新聞稿 |
| 00:09:20,420 | 00:09:23,420 | 不是給我一個正式的通知 |
| 00:09:23,420 | 00:09:24,420 | 而且更特別的是 |
| 00:09:24,420 | 00:09:26,420 | 如果要看這樣的一個 |
| 00:09:26,420 | 00:09:28,420 | 我要看調查報告看到什麼東西 |
| 00:09:28,420 | 00:09:29,420 | 看到一大堆遮蔽 |
| 00:09:29,420 | 00:09:30,420 | 要嘛就是黑的 |
| 00:09:30,420 | 00:09:31,420 | 要嘛就是說 |
| 00:09:31,420 | 00:09:34,420 | 從證人陳述的這些東西都不能看 |
| 00:09:34,420 | 00:09:36,420 | 我只能看到底下的一行字 |
| 00:09:36,420 | 00:09:37,420 | 這一行字 |
| 00:09:37,420 | 00:09:39,420 | 到底我要看到的是什麼 |
| 00:09:39,420 | 00:09:40,420 | 我孩子的整個 |
| 00:09:40,420 | 00:09:43,420 | 我們的陳述對方的陳述 |
| 00:09:43,420 | 00:09:45,420 | 為什麼行為人可以看到完整的 |
| 00:09:45,420 | 00:09:47,420 | 那反而是傷害人 |
| 00:09:47,420 | 00:09:48,420 | 不能看到 |
| 00:09:48,420 | 00:09:50,420 | 這也是我這三年來 |
| 00:09:50,420 | 00:09:51,420 | 我們辦公室一直在爭取 |
| 00:09:51,420 | 00:09:53,420 | 可是至今都還是有這樣子的問題 |
| 00:09:53,420 | 00:09:56,420 | 調查報告到底有什麼不可以看到 |
| 00:09:56,420 | 00:09:57,420 | 筆錄在記錄的時候 |
| 00:09:57,420 | 00:10:00,420 | 我們在警方筆錄的時候都可以看 |
| 00:10:00,420 | 00:10:01,420 | 為什麼事實上是 |
| 00:10:01,420 | 00:10:03,420 | 這樣子的一個調查報告 |
| 00:10:03,420 | 00:10:04,420 | 要嘛就遮蔽到整個黑的 |
| 00:10:04,420 | 00:10:06,420 | 要嘛就是貼上一個東西說 |
| 00:10:06,420 | 00:10:10,420 | 因為從證人陳述可特定的人 |
| 00:10:10,420 | 00:10:12,420 | 未保障關係人權益都不可以提供 |
| 00:10:12,420 | 00:10:14,420 | 那我看這一坨黑的東西 |
| 00:10:14,420 | 00:10:16,420 | 我到底看到是什麼東西 |
| 00:10:16,420 | 00:10:18,420 | 甚至一頁我只看到兩行字 |
| 00:10:18,420 | 00:10:19,420 | 其他的我都看不到 |
| 00:10:19,420 | 00:10:20,420 | 那我也不知道調查報告 |
| 00:10:20,420 | 00:10:23,420 | 為什麼又會是這樣狀況 |
| 00:10:23,420 | 00:10:25,420 | 好 剛剛委員有兩點 |
| 00:10:25,420 | 00:10:27,420 | 一個是監視器一個是報告 |
| 00:10:27,420 | 00:10:29,420 | 那剛才委員也舉了 |
| 00:10:29,420 | 00:10:31,420 | 至少兩個案例來做對照 |
| 00:10:31,420 | 00:10:34,420 | 那在114年7月份的全國局長會議之後 |
| 00:10:34,420 | 00:10:37,420 | 我們有承諾在監視器這一部分的調閱 |
| 00:10:37,420 | 00:10:39,420 | 應該要有一個合理 |
| 00:10:39,420 | 00:10:42,420 | 跟適當的來配合調查的一個做法 |
| 00:10:42,420 | 00:10:45,420 | 所以在當年的10月29號就訂出來 |
| 00:10:45,420 | 00:10:46,420 | 那委員也知道 |
| 00:10:46,420 | 00:10:47,420 | 我們再送給委員 |
| 00:10:47,420 | 00:10:48,420 | 委員也很多指導 |
| 00:10:48,420 | 00:10:49,420 | 那至於報告的部分 |
| 00:10:49,420 | 00:10:51,420 | 大概都有一些相關相應的 |
| 00:10:51,420 | 00:10:53,420 | 類似的這個注意事項跟做法 |
| 00:10:53,420 | 00:10:55,420 | 那剛剛委員講的兩個個案 |
| 00:10:55,420 | 00:10:58,420 | 有一些不特定的情況下做的作為 |
| 00:10:58,420 | 00:11:00,420 | 好像讓委員覺得有點質疑 |
| 00:11:00,420 | 00:11:01,420 | 我們也一樣 |
| 00:11:01,420 | 00:11:02,420 | 在這個會後我們馬上 |
| 00:11:02,420 | 00:11:03,420 | 搜集這兩個個案做個對比 |
| 00:11:03,420 | 00:11:04,420 | 在什麼樣的情況下 |
| 00:11:04,420 | 00:11:06,420 | 他會做那種判斷 |
| 00:11:06,420 | 00:11:07,420 | 有沒有依照規定 |
| 00:11:07,420 | 00:11:08,420 | 以及他實現上 |
| 00:11:08,420 | 00:11:10,420 | 是否當時注意事項之後或之前 |
| 00:11:10,420 | 00:11:11,420 | 再來一個是 |
| 00:11:11,420 | 00:11:12,420 | 剛剛委員有提到 |
| 00:11:12,420 | 00:11:15,420 | 這整個在調閱報告的時候 |
| 00:11:15,420 | 00:11:17,420 | 讓委員看到有一些感覺 |
| 00:11:17,420 | 00:11:18,420 | 不知道這個案情在說什麼 |
| 00:11:18,420 | 00:11:19,420 | 很多遮蔽 |
| 00:11:19,420 | 00:11:21,420 | 這些遮蔽如果他是符合相關的法規 |
| 00:11:21,420 | 00:11:23,420 | 那我們也要看他的適當性 |
| 00:11:23,420 | 00:11:25,420 | 這些我們都進行比較具體的監視 |
| 00:11:25,420 | 00:11:26,420 | 不能遮到一個字都看不到 |
| 00:11:26,420 | 00:11:28,420 | 整片是黑的印給我們做什麼 |
| 00:11:28,420 | 00:11:29,420 | 印給家長做什麼 |
| 00:11:29,420 | 00:11:31,420 | 甚至有更關心的叫停止 |
| 00:11:31,420 | 00:11:35,420 | 本來就希望把家害人跟孩子隔開 |
| 00:11:35,420 | 00:11:36,420 | 停止了嗎 |
| 00:11:36,420 | 00:11:39,420 | 看這四個就知道根本都沒在停止 |
| 00:11:39,420 | 00:11:40,420 | 像幼家幼兒園 |
| 00:11:40,420 | 00:11:42,420 | 還到他們照樣他們 |
| 00:11:42,420 | 00:11:44,420 | 二樓的補習班繼續工作 |
| 00:11:44,420 | 00:11:45,420 | 孩子都還是會看到這個老師 |
| 00:11:45,420 | 00:11:47,420 | 害不害怕當然害怕 |
| 00:11:47,420 | 00:11:48,420 | 那一樣啊 |
| 00:11:48,420 | 00:11:50,420 | 進寶公館的這個幼兒園 |
| 00:11:50,420 | 00:11:51,420 | 一樣啊 |
| 00:11:51,420 | 00:11:53,420 | 無論在現場 |
| 00:11:53,420 | 00:11:56,420 | 那當然更不用講那個歐洲學校幼兒園 |
| 00:11:56,420 | 00:11:58,420 | 還是一樣在學校裡面 |
| 00:11:58,420 | 00:12:00,420 | 如果你的法規有停止 |
| 00:12:00,420 | 00:12:02,420 | 為什麼地方政府可以這樣做 |
| 00:12:02,420 | 00:12:04,420 | 所以家長就來問我們說 |
| 00:12:04,420 | 00:12:09,420 | 當地方政府如此的荒腔走板的時候 |
| 00:12:09,420 | 00:12:11,420 | 家長問要怎麼辦 |
| 00:12:11,420 | 00:12:12,420 | 他們要怎麼辦 |
| 00:12:12,420 | 00:12:13,420 | 只能走刑法嗎 |
| 00:12:13,420 | 00:12:16,420 | 或者找我們這些民代來開記者會嗎 |
| 00:12:16,420 | 00:12:18,420 | 還是繼續跟施暴者 |
| 00:12:18,420 | 00:12:21,420 | 孩子要繼續跟施暴老師在現場嗎 |
| 00:12:21,420 | 00:12:22,420 | 這合理嗎 |
| 00:12:22,420 | 00:12:26,420 | 本來就是希望孩子能夠還是繼續去上學 |
| 00:12:26,420 | 00:12:27,420 | 而不是孩子要被隔開 |
| 00:12:27,420 | 00:12:29,420 | 老師繼續去上班 |
| 00:12:29,420 | 00:12:32,420 | 剛剛委員所提到的三大題 |
| 00:12:32,420 | 00:12:33,420 | 三大題以及最後一題 |
| 00:12:33,420 | 00:12:35,420 | 這些我們都會具體的了解 |
| 00:12:35,420 | 00:12:38,420 | 包含最後所提到的停止的認定跟他的執行 |
| 00:12:38,420 | 00:12:39,420 | 以上補充 |
| 00:12:39,420 | 00:12:41,420 | 甚至現在更荒謬的是 |
| 00:12:41,420 | 00:12:45,420 | 講完在培若米的案件有出來道歉 |
| 00:12:45,420 | 00:12:46,420 | 說自己是台北市家長 |
| 00:12:46,420 | 00:12:47,420 | 有責任保護小孩 |
| 00:12:47,420 | 00:12:50,420 | 為什麼現在至今都不處理國賠 |
| 00:12:50,420 | 00:12:51,420 | 完全不處理國賠 |
| 00:12:51,420 | 00:12:54,420 | 然後不是承認自己的疏失嗎 |
| 00:12:54,420 | 00:12:55,420 | 為什麼不處理 |
| 00:12:55,420 | 00:12:57,420 | 所以我很贊成家長講的話就是說 |
| 00:12:57,420 | 00:13:00,420 | 今天他們受害了 |
| 00:13:00,420 | 00:13:02,420 | 結果繳的罰款是給政府 |
| 00:13:02,420 | 00:13:04,420 | 心理諮商他們要自己出 |
| 00:13:04,420 | 00:13:06,420 | 司法訴訟要他們自己出 |
| 00:13:06,420 | 00:13:10,420 | 那到底事實上是政府賺了滿盆滿缽之後 |
| 00:13:10,420 | 00:13:12,420 | 所有的代價事實上是家長要負擔 |
| 00:13:12,420 | 00:13:13,420 | 這合理嗎 |
| 00:13:13,420 | 00:13:16,420 | 怎麼會是國賠不去處理 |
| 00:13:16,420 | 00:13:19,420 | 然後家長要去走到刑事法的一個訴訟 |
| 00:13:19,420 | 00:13:22,420 | 最後變成事實上所有的 |
| 00:13:22,420 | 00:13:23,420 | 不管是律師費 |
| 00:13:23,420 | 00:13:26,420 | 所有甚至心理諮商都要他們承擔 |
| 00:13:26,420 | 00:13:29,420 | 所以法律到底是在保護加害人 |
| 00:13:29,420 | 00:13:31,420 | 還是保護受害人 |
| 00:13:31,420 | 00:13:34,420 | 還有地方政府怎麼樣保護我們的孩子 |
| 00:13:34,420 | 00:13:36,420 | 當他們沒有作為的時候 |
| 00:13:36,420 | 00:13:39,420 | 到底家長要怎麼辦 |
| 00:13:39,420 | 00:13:42,420 | 更何況我覺得像也要來問 |
| 00:13:42,420 | 00:13:46,420 | 也要來問外僑學校到底是不是 |
| 00:13:46,420 | 00:13:47,420 | 額安的死角 |
| 00:13:47,420 | 00:13:49,420 | 為什麼這樣提 |
| 00:13:49,420 | 00:13:53,420 | 當這個台北歐洲學校 |
| 00:13:53,420 | 00:13:55,420 | 家長來跟我們求助的時候 |
| 00:13:55,420 | 00:13:58,420 | 他提到他要調監視器 |
| 00:13:58,420 | 00:14:01,420 | 結果出事了拿什麼 |
| 00:14:01,420 | 00:14:04,420 | 拿我們的通用資料保護規則 |
| 00:14:04,420 | 00:14:06,420 | 我們的政府竟然拿這個規則說 |
| 00:14:06,420 | 00:14:08,420 | 不可以調閱我們的監視器畫面 |
| 00:14:08,420 | 00:14:11,420 | 還有請家長自己去提民刑法 |
| 00:14:11,420 | 00:14:13,420 | 因為教育局不能處理 |
| 00:14:13,420 | 00:14:15,420 | 所以想問署長 |
| 00:14:15,420 | 00:14:18,420 | 請明確告訴我們外僑學校在台灣辦學 |
| 00:14:18,420 | 00:14:20,420 | 收的是我們台灣的孩子 |
| 00:14:20,420 | 00:14:22,420 | 到底要不要一樣遵守 |
| 00:14:22,420 | 00:14:24,420 | 兒少權法跟幼照法的相關規定 |
| 00:14:24,420 | 00:14:26,420 | 還有些是一定要遵守 |
| 00:14:26,420 | 00:14:28,420 | 那有一些特殊的情形 |
| 00:14:28,420 | 00:14:29,420 | 他們調查的適用 |
| 00:14:29,420 | 00:14:31,420 | 這個我們會做一個完整的 |
| 00:14:31,420 | 00:14:34,420 | 以及台北市政府如何回應委員的 |
| 00:14:34,420 | 00:14:36,420 | 那個整個訊息 |
| 00:14:36,420 | 00:14:38,420 | 我們完整的併入調查內 |
| 00:14:38,420 | 00:14:40,420 | 剛剛所提的包含台北市 |
| 00:14:40,420 | 00:14:42,420 | 我們7月16號給他要求了之後 |
| 00:14:42,420 | 00:14:45,420 | 相關的調查7月28號已經廢止 |
| 00:14:45,420 | 00:14:48,420 | 另外我們請他在8月10號前 |
| 00:14:48,420 | 00:14:50,420 | 要把所有這整個處置的過程 |
| 00:14:50,420 | 00:14:51,420 | 給我們說明 |
| 00:14:51,420 | 00:14:54,420 | 會併入委員剛才提醒的幾件事情的調查 |
| 00:14:54,420 | 00:14:55,420 | 以上補充 |
| 00:14:55,420 | 00:14:56,420 | 我還是要講 |
| 00:14:56,420 | 00:14:58,420 | 外僑學校在台灣辦學 |
| 00:14:58,420 | 00:14:59,420 | 收的是我們台灣的孩子 |
| 00:14:59,420 | 00:15:01,420 | 為什麼跟其他台灣 |
| 00:15:01,420 | 00:15:05,420 | 本來就是我們本地的辦學的那個制度不太一樣 |
| 00:15:05,420 | 00:15:07,420 | 再來就是 |
| 00:15:07,420 | 00:15:10,420 | 夏立思今年不是第一期 |
| 00:15:10,420 | 00:15:15,420 | 那在2024年受害13個孩子 |
| 00:15:15,420 | 00:15:18,420 | 教孩子學狗爬20分鐘 |
| 00:15:18,420 | 00:15:20,420 | 然後吃嘔吐物 |
| 00:15:20,420 | 00:15:23,420 | 那是76期的不當對待 |
| 00:15:23,420 | 00:15:24,420 | 結果呢 |
| 00:15:24,420 | 00:15:25,420 | 有怎麼樣 |
| 00:15:25,420 | 00:15:26,420 | 因為非常輕 |
| 00:15:26,420 | 00:15:29,420 | 到2026年現在7月 |
| 00:15:29,420 | 00:15:31,420 | 然後家長面對這個問題 |
| 00:15:31,420 | 00:15:32,420 | 又來找我們說 |
| 00:15:32,420 | 00:15:33,420 | 奇怪了 |
| 00:15:33,420 | 00:15:35,420 | 你大安分園如果有發生這樣的事情 |
| 00:15:35,420 | 00:15:39,420 | 為什麼集團式的不會有等同去考量 |
| 00:15:39,420 | 00:15:41,420 | 就像我們去年辦 |
| 00:15:41,420 | 00:15:43,420 | 去年開的記者會 |
| 00:15:43,420 | 00:15:45,420 | 新北市某一個幼兒園連鎖的 |
| 00:15:45,420 | 00:15:47,420 | 他桃園也有新北也有台北也有 |
| 00:15:47,420 | 00:15:48,420 | 一家嗎 |
| 00:15:48,420 | 00:15:50,420 | 結果好幾家都這樣 |
| 00:15:50,420 | 00:15:53,420 | 那集團式的有沒有有一些要求在 |
| 00:15:53,420 | 00:15:56,420 | 還是讓他們甚至沒有關係 |
| 00:15:56,420 | 00:15:58,420 | 只有一家你就裁處一家裁不很輕 |
| 00:15:58,420 | 00:16:01,420 | 就接下來又下一家又發生這樣的事情 |
| 00:16:01,420 | 00:16:03,420 | 甚至我剛才也提過 |
| 00:16:03,420 | 00:16:05,420 | 又家又幼兒園 |
| 00:16:05,420 | 00:16:08,420 | 怎麼念頭的老師還可以到他連鎖的補習班 |
| 00:16:08,420 | 00:16:09,420 | 繼續上班 |
| 00:16:09,420 | 00:16:12,420 | 然後每天孩子還要看到這些人 |
| 00:16:12,420 | 00:16:14,420 | 這樣子合情合理嗎 |
| 00:16:14,420 | 00:16:18,420 | 孩子每天還是在恐懼當中生活 |
| 00:16:18,420 | 00:16:19,420 | 所以請問署長 |
| 00:16:19,420 | 00:16:21,420 | 一個幼兒園集團下已經分園 |
| 00:16:21,420 | 00:16:22,420 | 已經發生耳虐事件 |
| 00:16:22,420 | 00:16:24,420 | 地方政府是不是應該提高 |
| 00:16:24,420 | 00:16:27,420 | 對同一個集團其他分園的監管 |
| 00:16:27,420 | 00:16:31,420 | 2024年大安分園出事 |
| 00:16:31,420 | 00:16:34,420 | 那2024到臺北市政府2025 24 |
| 00:16:34,420 | 00:16:37,420 | 有沒有去加強查緝其他的 |
| 00:16:37,420 | 00:16:40,420 | 那有沒有針對我們的下立師其他分園 |
| 00:16:40,420 | 00:16:43,420 | 甚至有沒有把這個集團列為高風險的對象 |
| 00:16:43,420 | 00:16:47,420 | 否則他的大安跟我們現在萬華一樣的樣態 |
| 00:16:47,420 | 00:16:50,420 | 對孩子這麼殘忍呼巴掌踹踢 |
| 00:16:50,420 | 00:16:53,420 | 然後甚至強迫灌食叫孩子學狗爬 |
| 00:16:53,420 | 00:16:56,420 | 剛委員提到今年的這一期 |
| 00:16:56,420 | 00:16:59,420 | 那麼他同時有去就另外一個幼兒園 |
| 00:16:59,420 | 00:17:01,420 | 以及他的補習班還有托嬰中心 |
| 00:17:01,420 | 00:17:04,420 | 總共發生事情的這個幼兒園兩員 |
| 00:17:04,420 | 00:17:07,420 | 補習班跟托嬰中心都有一些查查 |
| 00:17:07,420 | 00:17:08,420 | 那麼查查之後 |
| 00:17:08,420 | 00:17:11,420 | 那麼還是集中在目前發生這個事情的這個幼兒園 |
| 00:17:11,420 | 00:17:15,420 | 大概14天內監視器發現有58起 |
| 00:17:15,420 | 00:17:18,420 | 大概這樣所以整體是有一起做集團式的整個整理 |
| 00:17:18,420 | 00:17:21,420 | 至於2024年那一次的我們也去查一下 |
| 00:17:21,420 | 00:17:25,420 | 回溯看看他當時發生的那個大安的事情 |
| 00:17:25,420 | 00:17:26,420 | 署長是問你 |
| 00:17:26,420 | 00:17:30,420 | 是如果已經是連鎖性的發生一起 |
| 00:17:30,420 | 00:17:32,420 | 那其他的到底要不要加強 |
| 00:17:32,420 | 00:17:35,420 | 因為管理者都是同樣一批人 |
| 00:17:35,420 | 00:17:37,420 | 這很危險也風險高 |
| 00:17:37,420 | 00:17:39,420 | 而且我說去年我們開某一家 |
| 00:17:39,420 | 00:17:40,420 | 他也是連鎖性的 |
| 00:17:40,420 | 00:17:42,420 | 果然他好幾家都發生這樣的事情 |
| 00:17:42,420 | 00:17:45,420 | 然後有的地方政府採取的非常輕 |
| 00:17:45,420 | 00:17:50,420 | 那後來就會使得他這樣管理造成其他的無所謂 |
| 00:17:50,420 | 00:17:52,420 | 所以其他縣市陸續爆發 |
| 00:17:52,420 | 00:17:55,420 | 最後問你都有這一本 |
| 00:17:55,420 | 00:17:57,420 | 是台北市不理你嗎 |
| 00:17:57,420 | 00:18:00,420 | 你本來就有違法事件的參考的守則 |
| 00:18:00,420 | 00:18:02,420 | 應該要給心理諮商 |
| 00:18:02,420 | 00:18:04,420 | 甚至目睹兒童都要給 |
| 00:18:04,420 | 00:18:06,420 | 那受害的孩子都沒給 |
| 00:18:06,420 | 00:18:08,420 | 我也很懷疑目睹的兒童有沒有給 |
| 00:18:08,420 | 00:18:10,420 | 然後應該給調查報告 |
| 00:18:10,420 | 00:18:11,420 | 應該給監視器 |
| 00:18:11,420 | 00:18:13,420 | 甚至要停職都不做 |
| 00:18:13,420 | 00:18:16,420 | 那署長這到底是在保護我們的孩子 |
| 00:18:16,420 | 00:18:18,420 | 還是真正在保護地方政府 |
| 00:18:18,420 | 00:18:20,420 | 還在保護我們的加害人 |
| 00:18:20,420 | 00:18:23,420 | 還是這麼小一定要政府全力來保護 |
| 00:18:23,420 | 00:18:25,420 | 所以剛剛委員所提到的那一本 |
| 00:18:25,420 | 00:18:27,420 | 我們會用那一本的包含流程 |
| 00:18:27,420 | 00:18:29,420 | 或相關因處理的事項來進行檢視 |
| 00:18:29,420 | 00:18:31,420 | 那麼他完整的報完調查報告之後 |
| 00:18:31,420 | 00:18:33,420 | 我們會做一一的檢視 |
| 00:18:33,420 | 00:18:34,420 | 謝謝委員 |
| 00:18:34,420 | 00:18:35,420 | 我也希望這幾起的 |
| 00:18:35,420 | 00:18:37,420 | 甚至我剛剛提到到現在 |
| 00:18:37,420 | 00:18:40,420 | 至今這些狀況是不是可以給我一個檢討報告 |
| 00:18:40,420 | 00:18:41,420 | 讓我知道 |
| 00:18:41,420 | 00:18:44,420 | 否則的話我覺得一直這幾年來 |
| 00:18:44,420 | 00:18:47,420 | 每次受到家長這些陳情信的時候 |
| 00:18:47,420 | 00:18:49,420 | 我們真的非常心痛 |
| 00:18:49,420 | 00:18:51,420 | 我們一直在催生 |
| 00:18:51,420 | 00:18:54,420 | 可是又沒有辦法去處理 |
| 00:18:54,420 | 00:18:56,420 | 讓地方政府真的好好保護我們的孩子 |
| 00:18:56,420 | 00:18:59,420 | 這不會是我們台灣的福氣 |
| 00:18:59,420 | 00:19:00,420 | 謝謝委員 |
| 00:19:00,420 | 00:19:01,420 | 謝謝 |
| 00:19:01,420 | 00:19:04,420 | 好謝謝林瑋瓊、張二維的 |