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翁曉玲 @ 第11屆第5會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:01,000 | 法定委員發言諮詢 |
| 00:00:07,000 | 00:00:08,000 | 好 謝謝主席 |
| 00:00:08,000 | 00:00:10,000 | 這邊有請邱主委 |
| 00:00:17,000 | 00:00:18,000 | 郭委員好 |
| 00:00:18,000 | 00:00:20,000 | 邱主委好 |
| 00:00:20,000 | 00:00:22,000 | 我剛剛聽到這個議員之委員 |
| 00:00:22,000 | 00:00:24,000 | 也在關心你們的出國報告 |
| 00:00:24,000 | 00:00:25,000 | 這就讓我想起 |
| 00:00:25,000 | 00:00:26,000 | 其實呢 |
| 00:00:26,000 | 00:00:27,000 | 在這次預算審查裡面 |
| 00:00:27,000 | 00:00:29,000 | 我也發現蠻多的機關 |
| 00:00:29,000 | 00:00:31,000 | 像是國安會 |
| 00:00:31,000 | 00:00:34,000 | 還有現在有一個陸委會 |
| 00:00:34,000 | 00:00:36,000 | 還有一些部會機關 |
| 00:00:36,000 | 00:00:39,000 | 都是打著有國安之由 |
| 00:00:39,000 | 00:00:42,000 | 或是說這是機密的文件 |
| 00:00:42,000 | 00:00:44,000 | 所以都不方便揭露 |
| 00:00:44,000 | 00:00:45,000 | 我要再次強調 |
| 00:00:45,000 | 00:00:48,000 | 既然是用公務機關的預算 |
| 00:00:48,000 | 00:00:50,000 | 去出國 |
| 00:00:50,000 | 00:00:54,000 | 又不是有提這個機密預算來審查 |
| 00:00:54,000 | 00:00:56,000 | 所以所有的出國報告 |
| 00:00:56,000 | 00:00:59,000 | 都應該要公開揭露 |
| 00:00:59,000 | 00:01:01,000 | 都應該要公開揭露 |
| 00:01:01,000 | 00:01:03,000 | 而不是只是草率的 |
| 00:01:03,000 | 00:01:05,000 | 就是拿一份這個報告 |
| 00:01:05,000 | 00:01:07,000 | 給關心的委員看一看 |
| 00:01:07,000 | 00:01:09,000 | 這不符合我們立法委員 |
| 00:01:09,000 | 00:01:14,000 | 監督行政機關的一個情況 |
| 00:01:14,000 | 00:01:16,000 | 所以我這邊要提醒陸委會 |
| 00:01:16,000 | 00:01:18,000 | 就是之後你們所有出國報告 |
| 00:01:18,000 | 00:01:20,000 | 都應該要公開揭露 |
| 00:01:20,000 | 00:01:21,000 | 跟委員報告 |
| 00:01:21,000 | 00:01:22,000 | 我們這一點做不到 |
| 00:01:22,000 | 00:01:24,000 | 因為我們陸委會 |
| 00:01:24,000 | 00:01:25,000 | 你們做不到的話 |
| 00:01:25,000 | 00:01:28,000 | 涉及太多機密的事務 |
| 00:01:28,000 | 00:01:30,000 | 對 我要講你們做不到 |
| 00:01:30,000 | 00:01:31,000 | 我也尊重 |
| 00:01:31,000 | 00:01:32,000 | 但是就開秘密會議 |
| 00:01:32,000 | 00:01:33,000 | 提機密預算 |
| 00:01:33,000 | 00:01:35,000 | 如果你沒有開秘密會議 |
| 00:01:35,000 | 00:01:36,000 | 沒有提機密預算 |
| 00:01:36,000 | 00:01:37,000 | 這就是你們失職 |
| 00:01:37,000 | 00:01:38,000 | 你們不願意接受 |
| 00:01:38,000 | 00:01:40,000 | 立法委員的監督 |
| 00:01:40,000 | 00:01:41,000 | 我們很願意接受 |
| 00:01:41,000 | 00:01:43,000 | 立法委員監督 |
| 00:01:43,000 | 00:01:46,000 | 我們也願意跟委員報告 |
| 00:01:46,000 | 00:01:48,000 | 我們每個出法 |
| 00:01:48,000 | 00:01:50,000 | 我們的完全版的資料 |
| 00:01:50,000 | 00:01:52,000 | 都可以跟委員做說明 |
| 00:01:52,000 | 00:01:54,000 | 但是要恢復國家安全 |
| 00:01:54,000 | 00:01:56,000 | 我們所有的內政委員會 |
| 00:01:56,000 | 00:01:57,000 | 還有我們委員們 |
| 00:01:57,000 | 00:01:59,000 | 來提供你們的出國報告 |
| 00:01:59,000 | 00:02:00,000 | 你們有密件送也可以 |
| 00:02:00,000 | 00:02:02,000 | 但是不能夠以此 |
| 00:02:02,000 | 00:02:04,000 | 來作為這個規避 |
| 00:02:04,000 | 00:02:05,000 | 因為我們就是 |
| 00:02:05,000 | 00:02:06,000 | 主任副主任 |
| 00:02:06,000 | 00:02:07,000 | 我們是很副主任 |
| 00:02:07,000 | 00:02:09,000 | 我要提我今天正式要問的問題 |
| 00:02:09,000 | 00:02:13,000 | 因為本席最近接受到很多 |
| 00:02:13,000 | 00:02:16,000 | 小資公教人員的陳情 |
| 00:02:16,000 | 00:02:17,000 | 他們反映說 |
| 00:02:17,000 | 00:02:20,000 | 現在陸委會近來 |
| 00:02:20,000 | 00:02:23,000 | 大幅強化公教人員 |
| 00:02:23,000 | 00:02:25,000 | 入港澳的管理措施 |
| 00:02:25,000 | 00:02:26,000 | 要求公教人員 |
| 00:02:26,000 | 00:02:28,000 | 不論是因公因私 |
| 00:02:28,000 | 00:02:30,000 | 或者是只是經由 |
| 00:02:30,000 | 00:02:33,000 | 中國大陸的機場過境轉機 |
| 00:02:33,000 | 00:02:35,000 | 都必須事前申請事後通報 |
| 00:02:35,000 | 00:02:37,000 | 如果沒有依規定的話 |
| 00:02:37,000 | 00:02:39,000 | 可能還會面臨到行政懲處 |
| 00:02:39,000 | 00:02:41,000 | 或者是有其他不利的處分 |
| 00:02:41,000 | 00:02:43,000 | 那本席想講的是 |
| 00:02:43,000 | 00:02:45,000 | 真的我們有不少的 |
| 00:02:45,000 | 00:02:48,000 | 這個比較小資族的公教人員 |
| 00:02:48,000 | 00:02:49,000 | 他們不過只是 |
| 00:02:49,000 | 00:02:51,000 | 為了想要節省機票錢 |
| 00:02:51,000 | 00:02:53,000 | 所以也許透過在北京 |
| 00:02:53,000 | 00:02:56,000 | 這個過境機場轉機或是上海 |
| 00:02:56,000 | 00:02:58,000 | 可是只是轉機 |
| 00:02:58,000 | 00:02:59,000 | 連入境都沒有入境 |
| 00:02:59,000 | 00:03:01,000 | 就要求人家要申報 |
| 00:03:01,000 | 00:03:04,000 | 但是像近期放暑假 |
| 00:03:04,000 | 00:03:06,000 | 不少的公教人員 |
| 00:03:06,000 | 00:03:07,000 | 想帶著小朋友 |
| 00:03:07,000 | 00:03:10,000 | 然後家人去港澳玩 |
| 00:03:10,000 | 00:03:11,000 | 那裡有迪士尼 |
| 00:03:11,000 | 00:03:12,000 | 上海也有迪士尼 |
| 00:03:12,000 | 00:03:13,000 | 這種私人行程 |
| 00:03:13,000 | 00:03:15,000 | 而且它又不是高職等 |
| 00:03:15,000 | 00:03:17,000 | 我們現在兩岸條例裡面 |
| 00:03:17,000 | 00:03:18,000 | 是有規定就是 |
| 00:03:18,000 | 00:03:20,000 | 就是實質等以上的 |
| 00:03:20,000 | 00:03:21,000 | 或是警政 |
| 00:03:21,000 | 00:03:25,000 | 值等是四階以上的人員 |
| 00:03:25,000 | 00:03:27,000 | 才要受到管制 |
| 00:03:27,000 | 00:03:29,000 | 如果是實質等 |
| 00:03:29,000 | 00:03:31,000 | 以及警監四階以下 |
| 00:03:31,000 | 00:03:34,000 | 未涉及國家安全利益 |
| 00:03:34,000 | 00:03:35,000 | 或機密的公共人員 |
| 00:03:35,000 | 00:03:37,000 | 以及警察人員教育人員 |
| 00:03:37,000 | 00:03:38,000 | 等等附大陸地區 |
| 00:03:38,000 | 00:03:41,000 | 是不會受到管制的 |
| 00:03:41,000 | 00:03:43,000 | 可是現在陸委會 |
| 00:03:43,000 | 00:03:44,000 | 也然就是一刀切 |
| 00:03:44,000 | 00:03:47,000 | 我不管你的值等高低 |
| 00:03:47,000 | 00:03:50,000 | 就連那個二三值等的公有們 |
| 00:03:50,000 | 00:03:51,000 | 也要被管制 |
| 00:03:51,000 | 00:03:53,000 | 然後還有就是也不管 |
| 00:03:53,000 | 00:03:55,000 | 這些公務員員他們是不是 |
| 00:03:55,000 | 00:03:56,000 | 真的有處理到國家安全 |
| 00:03:56,000 | 00:03:58,000 | 或是處理到一些機密的 |
| 00:03:58,000 | 00:04:01,000 | 一些公務全部都納管 |
| 00:04:01,000 | 00:04:03,000 | 這樣的做法合理嗎 |
| 00:04:03,000 | 00:04:06,000 | 有符合我們台灣自詡為法治國家 |
| 00:04:06,000 | 00:04:07,000 | 有符合法律保留原則 |
| 00:04:07,000 | 00:04:09,000 | 有符合比例原則嗎 |
| 00:04:09,000 | 00:04:11,000 | 我想請主委回答 |
| 00:04:11,000 | 00:04:12,000 | 是 謝謝委員 |
| 00:04:12,000 | 00:04:14,000 | 有關於您剛說的 |
| 00:04:14,000 | 00:04:17,000 | 你看我們今天遭流治盤查 |
| 00:04:17,000 | 00:04:21,000 | 比例有50%是我們的公務人員 |
| 00:04:21,000 | 00:04:23,000 | 所以顯示我們的公務人員 |
| 00:04:23,000 | 00:04:26,000 | 不管是私人行程還是旅遊行程 |
| 00:04:26,000 | 00:04:29,000 | 也容易遭到中共重點盤查 |
| 00:04:29,000 | 00:04:30,000 | 已經案例很多了 |
| 00:04:30,000 | 00:04:32,000 | 不過剛剛委員所說的 |
| 00:04:32,000 | 00:04:35,000 | 十指等以下的公務人員 |
| 00:04:35,000 | 00:04:37,000 | 他依照現行規定 |
| 00:04:37,000 | 00:04:40,000 | 也必須要由他員服機關 |
| 00:04:40,000 | 00:04:42,000 | 員服機關同意 |
| 00:04:42,000 | 00:04:44,000 | 才能夠到中國大陸去 |
| 00:04:44,000 | 00:04:46,000 | 那我們知道很多人 |
| 00:04:46,000 | 00:04:47,000 | 過去並沒有 |
| 00:04:47,000 | 00:04:52,000 | 過去是沒有落實請假的程序 |
| 00:04:52,000 | 00:04:54,000 | 因為我們法律規定很清楚 |
| 00:04:54,000 | 00:04:55,000 | 十指等以下 |
| 00:04:55,000 | 00:04:58,000 | 他又沒有涉及到什麼 |
| 00:04:58,000 | 00:04:59,000 | 國家安全的業務 |
| 00:04:59,000 | 00:05:00,000 | 也沒有機密的業務 |
| 00:05:00,000 | 00:05:03,000 | 但是我跟你講其實現在 |
| 00:05:03,000 | 00:05:04,000 | 入委會的措施 |
| 00:05:04,000 | 00:05:07,000 | 已經是嚴重侵害到 |
| 00:05:07,000 | 00:05:10,000 | 我們隱私權和行動自由 |
| 00:05:10,000 | 00:05:13,000 | 我們更為入委會的文化 |
| 00:05:13,000 | 00:05:15,000 | 我們是在擺帳各位委員 |
| 00:05:15,000 | 00:05:17,000 | 萬一他被滲透 |
| 00:05:17,000 | 00:05:20,000 | 我們需要他建立新房 |
| 00:05:20,000 | 00:05:21,000 | 我們對於我們 |
| 00:05:21,000 | 00:05:23,000 | 與大部分的公務人員附路 |
| 00:05:23,000 | 00:05:24,000 | 其實這也是我今天 |
| 00:05:24,000 | 00:05:26,000 | 我想要譴責入委會的 |
| 00:05:26,000 | 00:05:28,000 | 我覺得你太小看 |
| 00:05:28,000 | 00:05:31,000 | 我們台灣公教人員的智慧 |
| 00:05:31,000 | 00:05:33,000 | 你認為我們大家對於 |
| 00:05:33,000 | 00:05:36,000 | 到大陸到港澳地區去旅遊 |
| 00:05:36,000 | 00:05:38,000 | 或是過境轉機 |
| 00:05:38,000 | 00:05:39,000 | 我們沒有那種 |
| 00:05:39,000 | 00:05:41,000 | 維安的這個意識嗎 |
| 00:05:41,000 | 00:05:44,000 | 我們當然不會對風險評估 |
| 00:05:44,000 | 00:05:45,000 | 接下來我就要請教你 |
| 00:05:45,000 | 00:05:47,000 | 因為你一直口口聲聲說 |
| 00:05:47,000 | 00:05:49,000 | 現在在大陸失聯 |
| 00:05:49,000 | 00:05:52,000 | 遭留置盤查的人數很高 |
| 00:05:52,000 | 00:05:53,000 | 根據你們統計 |
| 00:05:53,000 | 00:05:55,000 | 從113年1月1號到 |
| 00:05:55,000 | 00:05:57,000 | 115年7月22號為止 |
| 00:05:57,000 | 00:05:59,000 | 目前大概有402人 |
| 00:05:59,000 | 00:06:03,000 | 曾經有被留置盤查 |
| 00:06:03,000 | 00:06:05,000 | 或是遭限制人身自由 |
| 00:06:05,000 | 00:06:09,000 | 那本席要請教的是 |
| 00:06:09,000 | 00:06:11,000 | 你們這些數字是怎麼來的 |
| 00:06:11,000 | 00:06:13,000 | 我們都是有人 |
| 00:06:13,000 | 00:06:15,000 | 所以你們這些數字 |
| 00:06:15,000 | 00:06:16,000 | 是跟我們報案的 |
| 00:06:16,000 | 00:06:17,000 | 是跟什麼報案 |
| 00:06:17,000 | 00:06:18,000 | 是跟國會報案 |
| 00:06:18,000 | 00:06:20,000 | 這個當事人的家屬 |
| 00:06:20,000 | 00:06:21,000 | 或他親友 |
| 00:06:21,000 | 00:06:23,000 | 好 現在是直接下落 |
| 00:06:23,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 像我們選項機關 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:25,000 | 陸委會海基會 |
| 00:06:25,000 | 00:06:27,000 | 這個有跟我們報案的 |
| 00:06:27,000 | 00:06:28,000 | 好 現在是不是可以請 |
| 00:06:28,000 | 00:06:29,000 | 那個劉部長 |
| 00:06:36,000 | 00:06:37,000 | 本席關心的是說 |
| 00:06:37,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 剛剛那些數字 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:42,000 | 是家屬向內政部警政署報案的 |
| 00:06:42,000 | 00:06:44,000 | 還是說是向海基會 |
| 00:06:44,000 | 00:06:46,000 | 的緊急服務專線求助 |
| 00:06:46,000 | 00:06:50,000 | 又或者是向陸委會直接陳情 |
| 00:06:50,000 | 00:06:52,000 | 三個機關都有 |
| 00:06:52,000 | 00:06:53,000 | 所以三個機關的數字 |
| 00:06:53,000 | 00:06:54,000 | 整個加起來 |
| 00:06:54,000 | 00:06:57,000 | 那你們有沒有這個中間去 |
| 00:06:57,000 | 00:06:58,000 | double check |
| 00:06:58,000 | 00:07:00,000 | 有沒有重複的案子 |
| 00:07:00,000 | 00:07:01,000 | 陸委會都有做這樣的確認 |
| 00:07:01,000 | 00:07:03,000 | 所以這些都沒有重複 |
| 00:07:03,000 | 00:07:04,000 | 所以有些是向內政部警政署 |
| 00:07:04,000 | 00:07:07,000 | 有些是向陸委會陳情 |
| 00:07:07,000 | 00:07:09,000 | 對 我們都有聯繫系統 |
| 00:07:09,000 | 00:07:10,000 | 所以都沒有問題 |
| 00:07:10,000 | 00:07:11,000 | 好 了解 |
| 00:07:11,000 | 00:07:12,000 | 謝謝 謝謝部長 |
| 00:07:12,000 | 00:07:13,000 | 也謝謝那個 |
| 00:07:13,000 | 00:07:14,000 | 我跟陸委員說報告 |
| 00:07:14,000 | 00:07:17,000 | 數字只有更多不會更少 |
| 00:07:17,000 | 00:07:18,000 | 那所以中間 |
| 00:07:18,000 | 00:07:20,000 | 這件402人是到目前為止 |
| 00:07:20,000 | 00:07:21,000 | 都沒有回來嗎 |
| 00:07:21,000 | 00:07:22,000 | 陸委員你關心 |
| 00:07:22,000 | 00:07:24,000 | 是我特別給你回答 |
| 00:07:24,000 | 00:07:25,000 | 這個數字 |
| 00:07:25,000 | 00:07:27,000 | 實際數字絕對比公布的多 |
| 00:07:27,000 | 00:07:28,000 | 不會少 |
| 00:07:28,000 | 00:07:29,000 | 這第一點 |
| 00:07:29,000 | 00:07:30,000 | 為什麼 |
| 00:07:30,000 | 00:07:31,000 | 因為很多的家屬 |
| 00:07:32,000 | 00:07:33,000 | 他 |
| 00:07:33,000 | 00:07:34,000 | 基於安全 |
| 00:07:34,000 | 00:07:36,000 | 擔心人還在對岸 |
| 00:07:36,000 | 00:07:39,000 | 他不敢跟官方陳情 |
| 00:07:39,000 | 00:07:41,000 | 所以他沒有報 |
| 00:07:41,000 | 00:07:43,000 | 因為海基會數字跟陸委員數字 |
| 00:07:43,000 | 00:07:44,000 | 我們核對 |
| 00:07:44,000 | 00:07:46,000 | 我們有個群組在核對 |
| 00:07:46,000 | 00:07:47,000 | 每天核對 |
| 00:07:47,000 | 00:07:50,000 | 以過去18個月 |
| 00:07:50,000 | 00:07:53,000 | 海基會收到這225件 |
| 00:07:53,000 | 00:07:55,000 | 當事人的家屬 |
| 00:07:55,000 | 00:07:57,000 | 來陳情協助 |
| 00:07:57,000 | 00:07:58,000 | 好 了解 |
| 00:07:58,000 | 00:07:59,000 | 那謝謝 |
| 00:07:59,000 | 00:08:01,000 | 謝謝陸委員 |
| 00:08:01,000 | 00:08:02,000 | 都是真實的 |
| 00:08:02,000 | 00:08:03,000 | 好 了解 |
| 00:08:03,000 | 00:08:05,000 | 那我先了解就是說 |
| 00:08:05,000 | 00:08:06,000 | 你這402人 |
| 00:08:06,000 | 00:08:07,000 | 是不是中間其實 |
| 00:08:07,000 | 00:08:08,000 | 已經有些人回來了 |
| 00:08:08,000 | 00:08:10,000 | 有扣除掉那個數字了嗎 |
| 00:08:10,000 | 00:08:12,000 | 有扣除掉數字了嗎 |
| 00:08:12,000 | 00:08:13,000 | 我可以跟 |
| 00:08:13,000 | 00:08:15,000 | 對 因為你先13年到15年 |
| 00:08:15,000 | 00:08:16,000 | 去22號 |
| 00:08:16,000 | 00:08:17,000 | 你是402人 |
| 00:08:17,000 | 00:08:18,000 | 有沒有包括 |
| 00:08:18,000 | 00:08:19,000 | 中間已經有些人 |
| 00:08:19,000 | 00:08:20,000 | 已經回來了 |
| 00:08:20,000 | 00:08:21,000 | 我跟陸委員報告 |
| 00:08:21,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 海基會這邊 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:23,000 | 海基會這邊 |
| 00:08:23,000 | 00:08:25,000 | 我們過去18個月 |
| 00:08:25,000 | 00:08:26,000 | 從去年1月1號 |
| 00:08:26,000 | 00:08:28,000 | 到今年的6月30號為止 |
| 00:08:28,000 | 00:08:30,000 | 跟海基會陳情 |
| 00:08:30,000 | 00:08:32,000 | 有當事人的家屬陳情 |
| 00:08:32,000 | 00:08:34,000 | 有225件 |
| 00:08:34,000 | 00:08:36,000 | 225件其中有91件 |
| 00:08:36,000 | 00:08:38,000 | 到現在為止 |
| 00:08:38,000 | 00:08:39,000 | 還是失聯 |
| 00:08:39,000 | 00:08:40,000 | 完全找不到人 |
| 00:08:40,000 | 00:08:42,000 | 佔40% |
| 00:08:42,000 | 00:08:44,000 | 有134件 |
| 00:08:44,000 | 00:08:45,000 | 後來找到人了 |
| 00:08:45,000 | 00:08:47,000 | 找到人這143件 |
| 00:08:47,000 | 00:08:49,000 | 有些回到台灣 |
| 00:08:49,000 | 00:08:51,000 | 其中有102件 |
| 00:08:51,000 | 00:08:53,000 | 現在人被關在 |
| 00:08:53,000 | 00:08:55,000 | 中國的相關看守所監獄內 |
| 00:08:55,000 | 00:08:56,000 | 以上數字 |
| 00:08:56,000 | 00:08:57,000 | 好 謝謝執行長說明 |
| 00:08:57,000 | 00:08:59,000 | 所以我希望就是說 |
| 00:08:59,000 | 00:09:01,000 | 未來是不是可以把這些數據 |
| 00:09:01,000 | 00:09:02,000 | 分類 |
| 00:09:02,000 | 00:09:04,000 | 講得更清楚 |
| 00:09:04,000 | 00:09:05,000 | 否則大家會誤會 |
| 00:09:05,000 | 00:09:07,000 | 所以剛剛這個執行長說 |
| 00:09:07,000 | 00:09:09,000 | 其實90幾個人已經回來了 |
| 00:09:09,000 | 00:09:11,000 | 那剩下的這些沒有回來人 |
| 00:09:11,000 | 00:09:12,000 | 有些可能是真的被關在那邊 |
| 00:09:12,000 | 00:09:14,000 | 或是有些人根本不想回來 |
| 00:09:14,000 | 00:09:17,000 | 有91個人到現在還找不到 |
| 00:09:17,000 | 00:09:18,000 | 不是91個人 |
| 00:09:18,000 | 00:09:21,000 | 134個有找到人了 |
| 00:09:21,000 | 00:09:23,000 | 其中還在中國 |
| 00:09:23,000 | 00:09:25,000 | 被拘禁的102個 |
| 00:09:25,000 | 00:09:27,000 | 所以回來的是22個 |
| 00:09:27,000 | 00:09:29,000 | 好 那麼是不是在中國拘禁 |
| 00:09:29,000 | 00:09:30,000 | 我們不知道 |
| 00:09:30,000 | 00:09:32,000 | 因為現在兩岸共打的機制 |
| 00:09:32,000 | 00:09:33,000 | 基本上是失靈 |
| 00:09:33,000 | 00:09:34,000 | 你們根本也沒有清楚 |
| 00:09:34,000 | 00:09:36,000 | 那邊的數字訊息 |
| 00:09:36,000 | 00:09:38,000 | 如果說今天是因為 |
| 00:09:38,000 | 00:09:40,000 | 被劉治盤查的人 |
| 00:09:40,000 | 00:09:42,000 | 他涉及到違反大陸那裡的 |
| 00:09:42,000 | 00:09:44,000 | 相關的法律規定 |
| 00:09:44,000 | 00:09:46,000 | 譬如說這個可能是涉及到 |
| 00:09:46,000 | 00:09:48,000 | 詐欺 詐騙 刑事犯罪 |
| 00:09:48,000 | 00:09:50,000 | 或者是可能涉及到 |
| 00:09:50,000 | 00:09:52,000 | 他們那裡面的這個 |
| 00:09:52,000 | 00:09:53,000 | 國安的相關法律 |
| 00:09:53,000 | 00:09:56,000 | 因為這個原因而被劉治 |
| 00:09:56,000 | 00:09:57,000 | 而被拘禁 |
| 00:09:57,000 | 00:09:59,000 | 那麼就是以你們現在的 |
| 00:09:59,000 | 00:10:01,000 | 這個數字來看 |
| 00:10:01,000 | 00:10:02,000 | 沒有分類 |
| 00:10:02,000 | 00:10:03,000 | 大家搞不清楚 |
| 00:10:03,000 | 00:10:04,000 | 假設今天是真的 |
| 00:10:04,000 | 00:10:05,000 | 因為被詐欺 |
| 00:10:05,000 | 00:10:06,000 | 因為詐欺犯 |
| 00:10:06,000 | 00:10:07,000 | 特別再教你一個說明 |
| 00:10:07,000 | 00:10:09,000 | 坦白說我們國人還滿開心的 |
| 00:10:09,000 | 00:10:11,000 | 至少這些詐欺犯不會回來台灣 |
| 00:10:11,000 | 00:10:12,000 | 然後又被詐欺 |
| 00:10:12,000 | 00:10:13,000 | 又來詐欺我們台北 |
| 00:10:13,000 | 00:10:14,000 | 國務院你是學法律的 |
| 00:10:14,000 | 00:10:15,000 | 是 |
| 00:10:15,000 | 00:10:16,000 | 非常熟悉知道 |
| 00:10:16,000 | 00:10:18,000 | 根據1999年4月 |
| 00:10:18,000 | 00:10:20,000 | 兩岸兩會簽訂的 |
| 00:10:20,000 | 00:10:22,000 | 共同打擊犯罪與司法互助協議 |
| 00:10:22,000 | 00:10:23,000 | 第12條 |
| 00:10:23,000 | 00:10:25,000 | 明文規定 |
| 00:10:25,000 | 00:10:27,000 | 兩岸的人員 |
| 00:10:27,000 | 00:10:29,000 | 在對方的地區內 |
| 00:10:29,000 | 00:10:31,000 | 如果任何狀況 |
| 00:10:31,000 | 00:10:33,000 | 繩身自由受到限制 |
| 00:10:33,000 | 00:10:35,000 | 雙方要立即通報 |
| 00:10:35,000 | 00:10:37,000 | 即使他是詐欺犯毒走私 |
| 00:10:37,000 | 00:10:39,000 | 任何的事件 |
| 00:10:39,000 | 00:10:40,000 | 都要及時通報 |
| 00:10:40,000 | 00:10:41,000 | 是的 我非常清楚 |
| 00:10:41,000 | 00:10:43,000 | 所以說今天問題出在哪裡 |
| 00:10:43,000 | 00:10:44,000 | 出在哪裡 |
| 00:10:44,000 | 00:10:47,000 | 對岸片面不按照 |
| 00:10:47,000 | 00:10:49,000 | 兩會共同協議來執行 |
| 00:10:49,000 | 00:10:51,000 | 所以一切都回到 |
| 00:10:51,000 | 00:10:52,000 | 一切都回到軌道 |
| 00:10:52,000 | 00:10:54,000 | 就是他們按照當初簽訂協議 |
| 00:10:54,000 | 00:10:55,000 | 來通報 |
| 00:10:55,000 | 00:10:57,000 | 我們所有事件都掌握很清楚 |
| 00:10:57,000 | 00:10:58,000 | 主長我想 |
| 00:10:58,000 | 00:11:00,000 | 這個兩岸的交流要互相 |
| 00:11:00,000 | 00:11:02,000 | 為什麼現在對岸 |
| 00:11:02,000 | 00:11:04,000 | 對岸的交流 |
| 00:11:04,000 | 00:11:06,000 | 是他們要執行協議的問題 |
| 00:11:06,000 | 00:11:08,000 | 你不能這樣解讀 |
| 00:11:08,000 | 00:11:09,000 | 好像是我們的錯 |
| 00:11:09,000 | 00:11:11,000 | 我不是講說我們錯 |
| 00:11:11,000 | 00:11:12,000 | 而是我們認為說 |
| 00:11:12,000 | 00:11:14,000 | 我們的做法也要檢討 |
| 00:11:14,000 | 00:11:15,000 | 就像我講的 |
| 00:11:15,000 | 00:11:17,000 | 交流協議的部分 |
| 00:11:17,000 | 00:11:20,000 | 就是F法或是兩岸四道協議 |
| 00:11:20,000 | 00:11:21,000 | 都是要 |
| 00:11:21,000 | 00:11:23,000 | 所以你什麼都是中國的錯 |
| 00:11:23,000 | 00:11:25,000 | 他也認為都是我們台灣的錯 |
| 00:11:25,000 | 00:11:27,000 | 現在最重要的問題是 |
| 00:11:27,000 | 00:11:29,000 | 主長是你們讓我們 |
| 00:11:29,000 | 00:11:30,000 | 這個數字 |
| 00:11:30,000 | 00:11:31,000 | 提就這麼多人 |
| 00:11:31,000 | 00:11:34,000 | 是留在那裡被排查的話 |
| 00:11:34,000 | 00:11:35,000 | 你們就應該清楚的 |
| 00:11:35,000 | 00:11:38,000 | 到底我哪些人要講出來 |
| 00:11:38,000 | 00:11:40,000 | 我就是對於韓國人 |
| 00:11:40,000 | 00:11:41,000 | 非常關心 |
| 00:11:41,000 | 00:11:45,000 | 每一個被留在大陸的人的後背後 |
| 00:11:45,000 | 00:11:46,000 | 他都是一個家庭 |
| 00:11:46,000 | 00:11:48,000 | 為什麼這些家庭 |
| 00:11:48,000 | 00:11:50,000 | 他是被台灣求助 |
| 00:11:50,000 | 00:11:51,000 | 求助我們 |
| 00:11:51,000 | 00:11:53,000 | 包括我們的海基會 |
| 00:11:53,000 | 00:11:54,000 | 我們的陸委會 |
| 00:11:54,000 | 00:11:56,000 | 你能幫助到他們嗎 |
| 00:11:56,000 | 00:11:58,000 | 能幫助到他們嗎 |
| 00:11:58,000 | 00:12:00,000 | 這是我在乎的 |
| 00:12:00,000 | 00:12:01,000 | 我關心的是 |
| 00:12:01,000 | 00:12:03,000 | 假設真的有這麼多人 |
| 00:12:03,000 | 00:12:05,000 | 被留置在大陸 |
| 00:12:05,000 | 00:12:06,000 | 被拘禁在大陸 |
| 00:12:06,000 | 00:12:08,000 | 那他們的家族 |
| 00:12:08,000 | 00:12:09,000 | 在向我們的陸委會 |
| 00:12:09,000 | 00:12:11,000 | 向我們的海基會求助的時候 |
| 00:12:11,000 | 00:12:12,000 | 我們能提供什麼協助 |
| 00:12:12,000 | 00:12:14,000 | 看起來是沒有辦法 |
| 00:12:14,000 | 00:12:16,000 | 你們現在都只能夠透過 |
| 00:12:16,000 | 00:12:17,000 | 在電視上面 |
| 00:12:17,000 | 00:12:18,000 | 你們的喊話 |
| 00:12:18,000 | 00:12:19,000 | 都是大陸好可惡 |
| 00:12:19,000 | 00:12:20,000 | 他怎麼可以做這個東西 |
| 00:12:20,000 | 00:12:22,000 | 可是對於我們的人 |
| 00:12:22,000 | 00:12:23,000 | 完全不知道 |
| 00:12:23,000 | 00:12:25,000 | 而且我們甚至都懷疑 |
| 00:12:25,000 | 00:12:27,000 | 你們數字的正確性 |
| 00:12:27,000 | 00:12:28,000 | 坦白說 |
| 00:12:28,000 | 00:12:29,000 | 我剛才講得很清楚 |
| 00:12:29,000 | 00:12:30,000 | 沒有一件是錯的 |
| 00:12:30,000 | 00:12:32,000 | 國台辦說我們數字錯 |
| 00:12:32,000 | 00:12:34,000 | 你也在這邊說我們數字錯 |
| 00:12:34,000 | 00:12:35,000 | 我解釋不了 |
| 00:12:35,000 | 00:12:37,000 | 我們數字都有根有據 |
| 00:12:37,000 | 00:12:39,000 | 到底是住在哪個區域 |
| 00:12:39,000 | 00:12:42,000 | 我們要怎麼解釋你才會知道 |
| 00:12:42,000 | 00:12:44,000 | 你相信他們不相信我們 |
| 00:12:44,000 | 00:12:45,000 | 我相信 |
| 00:12:45,000 | 00:12:47,000 | 你相信他們說的 |
| 00:12:47,000 | 00:12:48,000 | 說數字錯的 |
| 00:12:48,000 | 00:12:49,000 | 我每個數字也看 |
| 00:12:49,000 | 00:12:51,000 | 我可以給你看每個個案 |
| 00:12:51,000 | 00:12:54,000 | 我們在第一線執行的同仁 |
| 00:12:54,000 | 00:12:55,000 | 非常辛苦 |
| 00:12:55,000 | 00:12:57,000 | 你剛剛說你可以提供給我看 |
| 00:12:57,000 | 00:13:00,000 | 我就麻煩請你把相關的文件 |
| 00:13:00,000 | 00:13:02,000 | 以密件的方式提供給我看 |
| 00:13:02,000 | 00:13:03,000 | 我可以啊 |
| 00:13:03,000 | 00:13:05,000 | 我確實要做到底 |
| 00:13:05,000 | 00:13:06,000 | 有沒有這些人 |
| 00:13:06,000 | 00:13:08,000 | 因為我也高度的懷疑 |
| 00:13:08,000 | 00:13:10,000 | 為什麼我們台灣的家屬 |
| 00:13:10,000 | 00:13:12,000 | 竟然這麼受委屈 |
| 00:13:12,000 | 00:13:13,000 | 連向我們的媒體 |
| 00:13:13,000 | 00:13:15,000 | 也不敢公開報導 |
| 00:13:15,000 | 00:13:16,000 | 然後呢 |
| 00:13:16,000 | 00:13:17,000 | 這個像陸委會 |
| 00:13:17,000 | 00:13:19,000 | 像海基會的求助 |
| 00:13:19,000 | 00:13:20,000 | 可是呢 |
| 00:13:20,000 | 00:13:22,000 | 你們全面積極的做 |
| 00:13:22,000 | 00:13:24,000 | 我們現在是為了這些家屬 |
| 00:13:24,000 | 00:13:25,000 | 都有憑有據 |
| 00:13:25,000 | 00:13:27,000 | 我們就如實呈現 |
| 00:13:27,000 | 00:13:29,000 | 沒有你講的那個什麼造假 |
| 00:13:29,000 | 00:13:30,000 | 這不可能 |
| 00:13:30,000 | 00:13:33,000 | 我們重點是要把這個數字 |
| 00:13:33,000 | 00:13:35,000 | 你要大家相信 |
| 00:13:35,000 | 00:13:38,000 | 最好的方式就是把數據公開 |
| 00:13:38,000 | 00:13:40,000 | 到底在台北有多少位 |
| 00:13:40,000 | 00:13:41,000 | 然後在 |
| 00:13:41,000 | 00:13:42,000 | 我們每個禮拜都公開 |
| 00:13:42,000 | 00:13:44,000 | 為了什麼樣的原因 |
| 00:13:44,000 | 00:13:46,000 | 而被盤置拘留 |
| 00:13:46,000 | 00:13:47,000 | 我要講是我們 |
| 00:13:47,000 | 00:13:49,000 | 我們台灣到台灣 |
| 00:13:49,000 | 00:13:51,000 | 交流兩三百萬人 |
| 00:13:51,000 | 00:13:53,000 | 委員你讓我講一句話 |
| 00:13:53,000 | 00:13:55,000 | 我非常感謝你關心 |
| 00:13:55,000 | 00:13:57,000 | 這些失聯的台灣人 |
| 00:13:57,000 | 00:13:58,000 | 我當然關心 |
| 00:13:58,000 | 00:13:59,000 | 對 第二個 |
| 00:13:59,000 | 00:14:02,000 | 我們數據完全沒有造假 |
| 00:14:02,000 | 00:14:04,000 | 今天說造假是國台辦 |
| 00:14:04,000 | 00:14:06,000 | 在記者會說造假 |
| 00:14:06,000 | 00:14:08,000 | 他們說造假我完全理解 |
| 00:14:08,000 | 00:14:09,000 | 因為他們就是這樣的人 |
| 00:14:09,000 | 00:14:10,000 | 這樣的單位 |
| 00:14:10,000 | 00:14:12,000 | 但是你作為中央的立法院 |
| 00:14:12,000 | 00:14:13,000 | 你說我們資料造假 |
| 00:14:13,000 | 00:14:14,000 | 而我提供造假 |
| 00:14:14,000 | 00:14:15,000 | 你還一再講說 |
| 00:14:15,000 | 00:14:17,000 | 數字有問題的造假 |
| 00:14:17,000 | 00:14:19,000 | 坦白講我心裡很痛心 |
| 00:14:19,000 | 00:14:20,000 | 秘書長 |
| 00:14:20,000 | 00:14:22,000 | 我希望你能夠了解一件事情 |
| 00:14:22,000 | 00:14:25,000 | 我沒有質疑你們的數字造假 |
| 00:14:25,000 | 00:14:27,000 | 但是我現在質疑的是說 |
| 00:14:27,000 | 00:14:29,000 | 這些數字後面代表 |
| 00:14:29,000 | 00:14:31,000 | 是什麼樣的個案 |
| 00:14:31,000 | 00:14:33,000 | 如果你沒有清楚讓我們知道 |
| 00:14:33,000 | 00:14:34,000 | 我怎麼會知道 |
| 00:14:34,000 | 00:14:35,000 | 對啊 我可以現在告訴你 |
| 00:14:35,000 | 00:14:37,000 | 是不是百分之百正確 |
| 00:14:37,000 | 00:14:38,000 | 你會想知道嗎 |
| 00:14:38,000 | 00:14:39,000 | 我告訴你 |
| 00:14:39,000 | 00:14:41,000 | 我馬上可以告訴你個案 |
| 00:14:41,000 | 00:14:42,000 | 如果你想聽的話 |
| 00:14:42,000 | 00:14:45,000 | 基本上我們今天時間太短 |
| 00:14:45,000 | 00:14:47,000 | 你會知道在中國大陸 |
| 00:14:47,000 | 00:14:49,000 | 如果你沒有做好計畫 |
| 00:14:49,000 | 00:14:50,000 | 沒有做好心理準備 |
| 00:14:50,000 | 00:14:52,000 | 是充滿風險的 |
| 00:14:53,000 | 00:14:54,000 | 我如果告訴你個案 |
| 00:14:54,000 | 00:14:56,000 | 一個個案我剛剛講過 |
| 00:14:56,000 | 00:14:57,000 | 我剛剛講過 |
| 00:14:57,000 | 00:15:00,000 | 每一個台灣人都會知道 |
| 00:15:00,000 | 00:15:02,000 | 他要不要去大陸去交流 |
| 00:15:02,000 | 00:15:03,000 | 要不要去旅遊 |
| 00:15:03,000 | 00:15:05,000 | 每個人都會有一些判斷 |
| 00:15:05,000 | 00:15:07,000 | 我希望你們能夠提出 |
| 00:15:07,000 | 00:15:09,000 | 提出這次把旅遊案件 |
| 00:15:09,000 | 00:15:12,000 | 後面的數字到底 |
| 00:15:12,000 | 00:15:15,000 | 和他到底是不是 |
| 00:15:15,000 | 00:15:17,000 | 所以你們就把到底是 |
| 00:15:17,000 | 00:15:18,000 | 一尾一貫道還是什麼 |
| 00:15:18,000 | 00:15:20,000 | 有哪些宗教的人士 |
| 00:15:20,000 | 00:15:22,000 | 然後幾個愛國就講出來嗎 |
| 00:15:22,000 | 00:15:23,000 | 剛剛我都講了 |
| 00:15:23,000 | 00:15:25,000 | 一個個案向委員報告 |
| 00:15:25,000 | 00:15:26,000 | 我希望說 |
| 00:15:26,000 | 00:15:27,000 | 而且我希望你們了解 |
| 00:15:27,000 | 00:15:30,000 | 就是說家庭這些專屬 |
| 00:15:30,000 | 00:15:33,000 | 實際上到底有沒有受到 |
| 00:15:33,000 | 00:15:34,000 | 你們實質的幫助 |
| 00:15:34,000 | 00:15:36,000 | 而不是只是口號上 |
| 00:15:36,000 | 00:15:37,000 | 在香港那邊講講 |
| 00:15:37,000 | 00:15:39,000 | 然後你們到底做了些什麼 |
| 00:15:39,000 | 00:15:40,000 | 都不聽我講 |
| 00:15:40,000 | 00:15:41,000 | 有沒有進了什麼樣的溝通 |
| 00:15:41,000 | 00:15:43,000 | 我沒有不聽你們講 |
| 00:15:43,000 | 00:15:44,000 | 我沒有不聽你們講 |
| 00:15:44,000 | 00:15:46,000 | 我中間已經 |
| 00:15:46,000 | 00:15:49,000 | 你要相信台灣政府的自治 |
| 00:15:49,000 | 00:15:50,000 | 我不是相信 |
| 00:15:50,000 | 00:15:51,000 | 國台辦的自治會的說法 |
| 00:15:51,000 | 00:15:53,000 | 基本上你就是給我扣帽子 |
| 00:15:53,000 | 00:15:54,000 | 我沒有給你扣帽子 |
| 00:15:54,000 | 00:15:56,000 | 你是說我們數字造假 |
| 00:15:56,000 | 00:15:58,000 | 我也沒有同說 |
| 00:15:58,000 | 00:15:59,000 | 國台辦說的是對的 |
| 00:15:59,000 | 00:16:00,000 | 我只是我今天 |
| 00:16:00,000 | 00:16:02,000 | 我是中華民國的立法委員 |
| 00:16:02,000 | 00:16:03,000 | 我當然有資格 |
| 00:16:03,000 | 00:16:05,000 | 要去接國陸委會 |
| 00:16:05,000 | 00:16:07,000 | 要去接國海基會 |
| 00:16:07,000 | 00:16:08,000 | 你們每年拿了那麼多錢 |
| 00:16:08,000 | 00:16:09,000 | 我沒有看到 |
| 00:16:09,000 | 00:16:11,000 | 實質上對於這些 |
| 00:16:11,000 | 00:16:12,000 | 你們所謂的被 |
| 00:16:12,000 | 00:16:14,000 | 被滯留在 |
| 00:16:14,000 | 00:16:16,000 | 或被拘禁在大陸的人民和家屬 |
| 00:16:16,000 | 00:16:18,000 | 你們提供了什麼實質的幫助 |
| 00:16:18,000 | 00:16:19,000 | 兩岸司法互助協議 |
| 00:16:19,000 | 00:16:22,000 | 實質上等於停擺 |
| 00:16:22,000 | 00:16:24,000 | 任何的交流環保 |
| 00:16:24,000 | 00:16:28,000 | 如果不是靠少數人 |
| 00:16:28,000 | 00:16:29,000 | 像陳育章委員等等 |
| 00:16:29,000 | 00:16:30,000 | 他們當然很善 |
| 00:16:30,000 | 00:16:32,000 | 你們基本上 |
| 00:16:32,000 | 00:16:34,000 | 根本沒有做到什麼 |
| 00:16:34,000 | 00:16:35,000 | 大家勇敢的想 |
| 00:16:35,000 | 00:16:36,000 | 好 我非常同情 |
| 00:16:36,000 | 00:16:37,000 | 以上 謝謝 |