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洪毓祥 @ 第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第26次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:13,000 | 好 謝謝主席 我們有請經濟部跟聯政署 |
| 00:00:13,000 | 00:00:21,000 | 麻煩請經濟部的政次江政次 還有聯政署 |
| 00:00:21,000 | 00:00:22,000 | 委員好 |
| 00:00:22,000 | 00:00:24,000 | 聯政署署長 |
| 00:00:24,000 | 00:00:27,000 | 聯政署署長 謝謝署長 |
| 00:00:27,000 | 00:00:32,000 | 我想這個題目在我們經濟委員會擔任召委的時候 |
| 00:00:32,000 | 00:00:35,000 | 也有排過類似這樣的機制 |
| 00:00:35,000 | 00:00:37,000 | 我想我今天延續了 |
| 00:00:37,000 | 00:00:42,000 | 因為可能在這個委員會沒有看過這個案子的全貌 |
| 00:00:42,000 | 00:00:45,000 | 其實就是整個在蘇巧淳這樣的案子 |
| 00:00:45,000 | 00:00:50,000 | 我想在這個經濟部還有從來底下的國發會 |
| 00:00:50,000 | 00:00:52,000 | 這些都清楚 |
| 00:00:52,000 | 00:00:57,000 | 重點並不是說蘇巧淳因為是這個蘇巧慧的妹妹 |
| 00:00:57,000 | 00:00:58,000 | 蘇貞昌的女兒 |
| 00:00:58,000 | 00:01:01,000 | 她不能夠申請補助 |
| 00:01:01,000 | 00:01:04,000 | 這一點一定要嚴正視聽 |
| 00:01:04,000 | 00:01:07,000 | 也就是說這個只要是公開的對不對 |
| 00:01:07,000 | 00:01:11,000 | 公平 不管它是補助案 投資 交易等等 |
| 00:01:11,000 | 00:01:13,000 | 她都有資格 |
| 00:01:13,000 | 00:01:17,000 | 這個是要確認 不要被亂洗的 |
| 00:01:17,000 | 00:01:18,000 | 並不是她不可以 |
| 00:01:18,000 | 00:01:22,000 | 可以 現在的問題就是在今天的利充法這邊 |
| 00:01:22,000 | 00:01:25,000 | 那這個利充法我們上次已經都談過了 |
| 00:01:25,000 | 00:01:27,000 | 整個這個過程 |
| 00:01:27,000 | 00:01:29,000 | 我們假設先不看國發會 |
| 00:01:29,000 | 00:01:31,000 | 我們先看跟經濟部有關的 |
| 00:01:31,000 | 00:01:33,000 | 在商發署補助 |
| 00:01:33,000 | 00:01:37,000 | 不管是礦石智能 微爐科技這邊 |
| 00:01:37,000 | 00:01:39,000 | 大概都是成立的 也沒有問題 |
| 00:01:39,000 | 00:01:41,000 | 但是有問題的是 |
| 00:01:41,000 | 00:01:45,000 | 這個在我們利充法的規範裡頭 |
| 00:01:45,000 | 00:01:48,000 | 它必須要去揭露 |
| 00:01:48,000 | 00:01:50,000 | 也就是說我在申請案件的時候 |
| 00:01:50,000 | 00:01:54,000 | 它要揭露 我是利害關係人 |
| 00:01:54,000 | 00:01:55,000 | 所以它要填表 |
| 00:01:55,000 | 00:01:58,000 | 所以當時商發署也有回說 |
| 00:01:58,000 | 00:02:00,000 | 有些表格要填 |
| 00:02:00,000 | 00:02:01,000 | 但是很不幸的 |
| 00:02:01,000 | 00:02:04,000 | 它這個蘇巧淳等等這個案子 |
| 00:02:04,000 | 00:02:06,000 | 它是沒有填 |
| 00:02:06,000 | 00:02:09,000 | 那你們給我的回覆是 |
| 00:02:09,000 | 00:02:11,000 | 它填到哪裡去呢 |
| 00:02:11,000 | 00:02:15,000 | 就是它認為這一塊地方來講的話 |
| 00:02:15,000 | 00:02:19,000 | 我在你們的這個監察院的 |
| 00:02:19,000 | 00:02:20,000 | 公職員 關係人 |
| 00:02:20,000 | 00:02:22,000 | 補助教育跟身份關於查詢平台 |
| 00:02:22,000 | 00:02:26,000 | 是查不到這一筆的資料 |
| 00:02:26,000 | 00:02:28,000 | 那這個東西它認為 |
| 00:02:28,000 | 00:02:30,000 | 這個要由廉政署 |
| 00:02:30,000 | 00:02:33,000 | 來做一些事法上的一個詮釋 |
| 00:02:33,000 | 00:02:36,000 | 那我不曉得這個後續的回應處理 |
| 00:02:36,000 | 00:02:40,000 | 廉政署這邊處理了嗎 |
| 00:02:40,000 | 00:02:42,000 | 是 跟委員報告 |
| 00:02:42,000 | 00:02:46,000 | 依照我們公職人員利益衝突回避法 |
| 00:02:46,000 | 00:02:49,000 | 第14條的第一項的規定 |
| 00:02:49,000 | 00:02:51,000 | 公職人員或其關係人 |
| 00:02:51,000 | 00:02:53,000 | 不得與公職人員服務 |
| 00:02:53,000 | 00:02:55,000 | 或授旗監督機關團體 |
| 00:02:55,000 | 00:02:59,000 | 為補助 買賣 租賃 承攬 |
| 00:02:59,000 | 00:03:02,000 | 或其他具有對價關係的行為 |
| 00:03:02,000 | 00:03:05,000 | 它前提是必須要符合這一些的規定 |
| 00:03:05,000 | 00:03:08,000 | 才有後續的一個揭露 |
| 00:03:08,000 | 00:03:10,000 | 那個揭露也不是全部都 |
| 00:03:10,000 | 00:03:11,000 | 所有都要揭露 |
| 00:03:11,000 | 00:03:16,000 | 是符合這裡第一項所列的一至三款 |
| 00:03:16,000 | 00:03:19,000 | 這樣的條件才有揭露的一個義務 |
| 00:03:19,000 | 00:03:21,000 | 所以你認為不需要揭露 |
| 00:03:21,000 | 00:03:23,000 | 要看它什麼樣的一線 |
| 00:03:23,000 | 00:03:25,000 | 如果符合的話是要揭露 |
| 00:03:25,000 | 00:03:26,000 | 它就是符合啦 |
| 00:03:26,000 | 00:03:28,000 | 如果不符合的話就不需要 |
| 00:03:28,000 | 00:03:29,000 | 它就是符合啦 |
| 00:03:29,000 | 00:03:30,000 | 那這一件是不是符合 |
| 00:03:30,000 | 00:03:32,000 | 這個不是我們全管 |
| 00:03:32,000 | 00:03:35,000 | 這個是屬於主管機關它全管的範圍 |
| 00:03:35,000 | 00:03:36,000 | 我沒有辦法 |
| 00:03:36,000 | 00:03:37,000 | 所以它推給你啊 |
| 00:03:37,000 | 00:03:40,000 | 不是推這個法律規定如此 |
| 00:03:40,000 | 00:03:43,000 | 它的回覆給我的是說廉政署啊 |
| 00:03:45,000 | 00:03:49,000 | 我們不是對於這個實際上的補助 |
| 00:03:49,000 | 00:03:51,000 | 或者是什麼投資行為 |
| 00:03:51,000 | 00:03:52,000 | 我們不是它的機關 |
| 00:03:52,000 | 00:03:54,000 | 你是投資啊這是補助耶補助耶 |
| 00:03:54,000 | 00:03:55,000 | 我們不是它的機關 |
| 00:03:55,000 | 00:03:58,000 | 我們是法我們對這個法律的規定是如此 |
| 00:03:58,000 | 00:04:01,000 | 我是跟委員報我們對法律解釋如此 |
| 00:04:01,000 | 00:04:03,000 | 至於個案它是否 |
| 00:04:03,000 | 00:04:06,000 | 你的第14條第3款就寫啦 |
| 00:04:06,000 | 00:04:08,000 | 法定身分依法院公聽申請補助 |
| 00:04:08,000 | 00:04:11,000 | 公職人員是關係人依法令規定 |
| 00:04:11,000 | 00:04:13,000 | 公開公平方式辦理之補助 |
| 00:04:13,000 | 00:04:15,000 | 這些是要揭露的啊 |
| 00:04:16,000 | 00:04:18,000 | 你不揭露是要罰的捏 |
| 00:04:18,000 | 00:04:20,000 | 我不是罰你啦 |
| 00:04:22,000 | 00:04:23,000 | 是吧 |
| 00:04:23,000 | 00:04:26,000 | 這個因為這個是個案的問題 |
| 00:04:26,000 | 00:04:27,000 | 這不是個案 |
| 00:04:27,000 | 00:04:28,000 | 又來了 |
| 00:04:29,000 | 00:04:31,000 | 每次法務部你都跟我講個案 |
| 00:04:31,000 | 00:04:34,000 | 連任署也跟我講個案都叫個案 |
| 00:04:36,000 | 00:04:37,000 | 因為我們沒有這一家 |
| 00:04:37,000 | 00:04:38,000 | 我上網去查 |
| 00:04:38,000 | 00:04:39,000 | 我上網去查 |
| 00:04:39,000 | 00:04:43,000 | 我們很多委員都很守法 |
| 00:04:43,000 | 00:04:46,000 | 監察院這裡頭總共7000多個案件我去查的 |
| 00:04:46,000 | 00:04:47,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:04:47,000 | 00:04:50,000 | A立委關係機會承接台電採購法 |
| 00:04:51,000 | 00:04:52,000 | 依法揭露啊 |
| 00:04:53,000 | 00:04:57,000 | 某個立委關係人他只是某某學校的董事啊 |
| 00:04:57,000 | 00:05:00,000 | 那學校取得國科會的補助啊 |
| 00:05:00,000 | 00:05:02,000 | 按照產創的條例 |
| 00:05:02,000 | 00:05:03,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:05:03,000 | 00:05:04,000 | 科學技術基本法 |
| 00:05:04,000 | 00:05:05,000 | 促餐法等等 |
| 00:05:05,000 | 00:05:06,000 | 他都有揭露啊 |
| 00:05:06,000 | 00:05:07,000 | 77萬都有揭露 |
| 00:05:07,000 | 00:05:09,000 | 260萬都有揭露 |
| 00:05:09,000 | 00:05:11,000 | 199.9萬不用揭露 |
| 00:05:13,000 | 00:05:14,000 | 這叫個案 |
| 00:05:15,000 | 00:05:17,000 | 現在是跟你討論機制耶 |
| 00:05:17,000 | 00:05:19,000 | 法就定在這裡 |
| 00:05:20,000 | 00:05:21,000 | 我沒有他們 |
| 00:05:21,000 | 00:05:23,000 | 我沒有他們實際上這一個 |
| 00:05:23,000 | 00:05:26,000 | 所以是三八署沒有把資料給你 |
| 00:05:26,000 | 00:05:27,000 | 對我們沒有這個資料 |
| 00:05:27,000 | 00:05:29,000 | 他的全管單位我們並不是全管單位 |
| 00:05:29,000 | 00:05:31,000 | 我沒有辦法去認定說 |
| 00:05:31,000 | 00:05:33,000 | 到底他是什麼樣的一個法律行為 |
| 00:05:33,000 | 00:05:35,000 | 來三八署經濟部有沒有 |
| 00:05:37,000 | 00:05:39,000 | 跟委員報告這個個案 |
| 00:05:39,000 | 00:05:42,000 | 因為是涉及到立法委員的話 |
| 00:05:42,000 | 00:05:44,000 | 就是在監察院 |
| 00:05:44,000 | 00:05:46,000 | 個案會在監察院處理 |
| 00:05:48,000 | 00:05:50,000 | 我只是叫你公開而已耶 |
| 00:05:50,000 | 00:05:52,000 | 你的立充法這邊是公開 |
| 00:05:52,000 | 00:05:54,000 | 你去把法條看清楚 |
| 00:05:57,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 你們都給我 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:06:01,000 | 你再這樣子我經委會找我再排一次 |
| 00:06:04,000 | 00:06:07,000 | 然後再請我們這個翁仁再聯席好了 |
| 00:06:09,000 | 00:06:11,000 | 報告委員謝謝委員的關心 |
| 00:06:11,000 | 00:06:12,000 | 第一個呢 |
| 00:06:12,000 | 00:06:14,000 | 我現在不是跟你討論個案 |
| 00:06:14,000 | 00:06:15,000 | 我現在就是機制 |
| 00:06:15,000 | 00:06:17,000 | 所以我上次你們也答應我 |
| 00:06:17,000 | 00:06:18,000 | 會跟聯政署 |
| 00:06:18,000 | 00:06:19,000 | 聯政署我派代表來喔 |
| 00:06:19,000 | 00:06:21,000 | 不是署長來 |
| 00:06:21,000 | 00:06:22,000 | 我派代表來 |
| 00:06:22,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 他說你們兩個會回去研究 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:25,000 | 上次是這個 |
| 00:06:25,000 | 00:06:27,000 | 我不曉得是哪一個次長 |
| 00:06:27,000 | 00:06:29,000 | 應該是何次還是賴次這樣子 |
| 00:06:29,000 | 00:06:32,000 | 跟委員報告我們確實會後有做 |
| 00:06:32,000 | 00:06:35,000 | 您關心我們有做檢討 |
| 00:06:35,000 | 00:06:36,000 | 第一個呢 |
| 00:06:36,000 | 00:06:37,000 | 因為呢 |
| 00:06:37,000 | 00:06:41,000 | 這個我們現在就是按照委員的要求 |
| 00:06:41,000 | 00:06:45,000 | 我們要清查過去五年所有的補助案件 |
| 00:06:45,000 | 00:06:48,000 | 這個第一個現在已經開始啟動 |
| 00:06:48,000 | 00:06:49,000 | 另外還有呢 |
| 00:06:49,000 | 00:06:52,000 | 其實我們部裡面各個機關 |
| 00:06:52,000 | 00:06:55,000 | 都有這些揭露的這個網頁 |
| 00:06:55,000 | 00:06:56,000 | 但是 |
| 00:06:56,000 | 00:06:57,000 | 但是呢 |
| 00:06:57,000 | 00:06:59,000 | 沒有你揭露網頁沒關係 |
| 00:06:59,000 | 00:07:00,000 | 揭露網頁可以慢慢做 |
| 00:07:00,000 | 00:07:02,000 | 但是起碼可以上到監察院 |
| 00:07:02,000 | 00:07:04,000 | 剛剛我列的這個平台 |
| 00:07:04,000 | 00:07:06,000 | 因為上次是 |
| 00:07:07,000 | 00:07:10,000 | 剛剛您關心的案件呢 |
| 00:07:10,000 | 00:07:15,000 | 其實監察院已經有主動來請經濟部提供相關的資訊 |
| 00:07:15,000 | 00:07:18,000 | 我們也依照監察院的來函提供了相關的資訊 |
| 00:07:18,000 | 00:07:22,000 | 現在已經都給監察院在進行相關的調查 |
| 00:07:22,000 | 00:07:25,000 | 對因為他如果沒有揭露的話 |
| 00:07:25,000 | 00:07:28,000 | 在這個第19條 |
| 00:07:28,000 | 00:07:31,000 | 律從法的第18條是罰你們機關 |
| 00:07:31,000 | 00:07:33,000 | 罰商務署 |
| 00:07:33,000 | 00:07:36,000 | 然後第19條是罰個人 |
| 00:07:36,000 | 00:07:37,000 | 比如說他還是拒不提供嘛 |
| 00:07:37,000 | 00:07:38,000 | 對不對 |
| 00:07:38,000 | 00:07:39,000 | 申請人這個不提供 |
| 00:07:39,000 | 00:07:41,000 | 我有什麼很生氣的地方是說 |
| 00:07:41,000 | 00:07:43,000 | 上次我已經講過了 |
| 00:07:43,000 | 00:07:46,000 | 我們審查委員審東西啊 |
| 00:07:46,000 | 00:07:48,000 | 我要先填什麼 |
| 00:07:48,000 | 00:07:51,000 | 有沒有利益迴避嘛 |
| 00:07:51,000 | 00:07:53,000 | 我要填我要揭露嘛 |
| 00:07:53,000 | 00:07:56,000 | 我們審查委員都要填都要揭露 |
| 00:07:56,000 | 00:07:59,000 | 申請人他更應該要揭露 |
| 00:07:59,000 | 00:08:01,000 | 申請人揭露了之後 |
| 00:08:01,000 | 00:08:04,000 | 我作為一個審查委員明白有這層關係 |
| 00:08:04,000 | 00:08:06,000 | 只是明白 |
| 00:08:06,000 | 00:08:09,000 | 但不影響我審查他這個案子是不是 |
| 00:08:09,000 | 00:08:12,000 | 符合這個補助的要旨 |
| 00:08:12,000 | 00:08:15,000 | 如果他公司的產品服務能力很好 |
| 00:08:15,000 | 00:08:17,000 | 該補就要補啊 |
| 00:08:17,000 | 00:08:19,000 | 我不會因為他是總統的女兒 |
| 00:08:19,000 | 00:08:21,000 | 什麼什麼行政院長的兒子 |
| 00:08:21,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 這跟那個也沒關係 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:24,000 | 是跟他的技術能力有關係 |
| 00:08:24,000 | 00:08:26,000 | 這一點是要肯定啊 |
| 00:08:26,000 | 00:08:29,000 | 因為審查委員是從專業去弄 |
| 00:08:29,000 | 00:08:32,000 | 那可是如果審查人不知道 |
| 00:08:32,000 | 00:08:34,000 | 我覺得這個就不對嘛 |
| 00:08:34,000 | 00:08:36,000 | 所以立法法這邊的話 |
| 00:08:36,000 | 00:08:37,000 | 他規定的是這樣 |
| 00:08:37,000 | 00:08:39,000 | 你事後也可以公開啊 |
| 00:08:39,000 | 00:08:41,000 | 補也可以啊 |
| 00:08:41,000 | 00:08:44,000 | 所以我要追的是這件事情啊 |
| 00:08:44,000 | 00:08:46,000 | 再麻煩連任署 |
| 00:08:46,000 | 00:08:47,000 | 連任署 |
| 00:08:47,000 | 00:08:49,000 | 我再問一個 |
| 00:08:49,000 | 00:08:51,000 | 請經濟部請回 |
| 00:08:51,000 | 00:08:54,000 | 然後呢我想要問一下連任署 |
| 00:08:54,000 | 00:08:57,000 | 上次呢我是沒有在公開講 |
| 00:08:57,000 | 00:09:00,000 | 我們就拿這一個來看 |
| 00:09:02,000 | 00:09:04,000 | 我請問一下 |
| 00:09:04,000 | 00:09:08,000 | 什麼叫做具有對價之交易行為 |
| 00:09:08,000 | 00:09:09,000 | 你的認知 |
| 00:09:09,000 | 00:09:12,000 | 那個經濟部請回沒關係 |
| 00:09:12,000 | 00:09:14,000 | 我關於具有 |
| 00:09:14,000 | 00:09:17,000 | 這個關於這一條的一個法律的規定 |
| 00:09:17,000 | 00:09:19,000 | 它是有補助買賣租賃承攬 |
| 00:09:19,000 | 00:09:23,000 | 或其他具有對價關係的交易行為 |
| 00:09:23,000 | 00:09:26,000 | 那所謂具有對價關係的交易行為 |
| 00:09:26,000 | 00:09:27,000 | 它有兩個部份 |
| 00:09:27,000 | 00:09:29,000 | 一個具有對價關係 |
| 00:09:29,000 | 00:09:30,000 | 一個是交易行為 |
| 00:09:30,000 | 00:09:31,000 | 那我簡單問好了 |
| 00:09:31,000 | 00:09:34,000 | 我用一個個例子啦 |
| 00:09:34,000 | 00:09:37,000 | 假設你開一家公司嘛 |
| 00:09:37,000 | 00:09:39,000 | 我投資500萬嘛 |
| 00:09:39,000 | 00:09:41,000 | 我換得你的股票嘛 |
| 00:09:41,000 | 00:09:43,000 | 這算不算對價交易 |
| 00:09:43,000 | 00:09:44,000 | 那不一定 |
| 00:09:44,000 | 00:09:46,000 | 那我跟有人解釋一下 |
| 00:09:46,000 | 00:09:47,000 | 那個對價通常 |
| 00:09:47,000 | 00:09:49,000 | 那你先告訴我試的是什麼 |
| 00:09:49,000 | 00:09:51,000 | 我現在跟您解釋 |
| 00:09:51,000 | 00:09:52,000 | 對價的關係 |
| 00:09:52,000 | 00:09:54,000 | 像買賣租賃承攬 |
| 00:09:54,000 | 00:09:57,000 | 它會有一個大概一個市場的價格 |
| 00:09:57,000 | 00:09:58,000 | 所以我們去交易的話 |
| 00:09:58,000 | 00:10:00,000 | 它會有所謂的對價 |
| 00:10:00,000 | 00:10:01,000 | 但是投資的項目 |
| 00:10:01,000 | 00:10:02,000 | 它可能就很廣 |
| 00:10:02,000 | 00:10:05,000 | 它有它也許有具有它的一個政策目的 |
| 00:10:05,000 | 00:10:06,000 | 做的投資 |
| 00:10:06,000 | 00:10:09,000 | 我們跟你講政策目的你在對號入座 |
| 00:10:09,000 | 00:10:10,000 | 我現在就講的是一般 |
| 00:10:10,000 | 00:10:11,000 | 我就投資你的公司 |
| 00:10:11,000 | 00:10:12,000 | 我付你500萬 |
| 00:10:12,000 | 00:10:14,000 | 然後取得你的股票20張 |
| 00:10:14,000 | 00:10:15,000 | 我們兩個合意的嘛 |
| 00:10:15,000 | 00:10:18,000 | 這算不算對價之交易行為啦 |
| 00:10:18,000 | 00:10:20,000 | 那我想這個對這個投資 |
| 00:10:20,000 | 00:10:22,000 | 你只要回答是或不是啦 |
| 00:10:22,000 | 00:10:25,000 | 投資它的一個定義法律 |
| 00:10:25,000 | 00:10:27,000 | 並沒有一個明確的規定 |
| 00:10:27,000 | 00:10:31,000 | 你看那個在民法買賣租賃承攬 |
| 00:10:31,000 | 00:10:34,000 | 它都有一個民法都有規定 |
| 00:10:34,000 | 00:10:35,000 | 但是投資並沒有 |
| 00:10:35,000 | 00:10:37,000 | 部長這樣解釋可以嗎 |
| 00:10:37,000 | 00:10:38,000 | 我不曉得部長 |
| 00:10:38,000 | 00:10:41,000 | 我現在付500萬買股票 |
| 00:10:41,000 | 00:10:44,000 | 換得你20張算不算對價交易 |
| 00:10:44,000 | 00:10:46,000 | 我想這個事實 |
| 00:10:46,000 | 00:10:48,000 | 這個是委員所關心的是 |
| 00:10:48,000 | 00:10:51,000 | 一個事實的一個認定 |
| 00:10:51,000 | 00:10:53,000 | 那這部分還在研議 |
| 00:10:53,000 | 00:10:56,000 | 那我們回到14條來一個看 |
| 00:10:56,000 | 00:10:58,000 | 他說其他具有對價之交易行為 |
| 00:10:58,000 | 00:11:01,000 | 前面有講利是就是買賣租賃承攬 |
| 00:11:01,000 | 00:11:02,000 | 這個在民法規定 |
| 00:11:02,000 | 00:11:03,000 | 這是一個雙無其一 |
| 00:11:03,000 | 00:11:04,000 | 我們要管前面 |
| 00:11:04,000 | 00:11:05,000 | 前面有多清楚 |
| 00:11:05,000 | 00:11:06,000 | 就是一個利是 |
| 00:11:06,000 | 00:11:08,000 | 從這個民法這個裡面 |
| 00:11:08,000 | 00:11:09,000 | 從那個買賣租賃承攬 |
| 00:11:09,000 | 00:11:12,000 | 就可以看出是不是一個對價的交易行為 |
| 00:11:12,000 | 00:11:15,000 | 這不但是要雙方的一個對價 |
| 00:11:15,000 | 00:11:16,000 | 而且他必須有一個 |
| 00:11:16,000 | 00:11:18,000 | 所以我們現在可以跟 |
| 00:11:18,000 | 00:11:19,000 | 念法律的人說 |
| 00:11:19,000 | 00:11:20,000 | 我花500萬 |
| 00:11:20,000 | 00:11:22,000 | 然後換得公司股票20張 |
| 00:11:22,000 | 00:11:25,000 | 這個利是這個不準確啦 |
| 00:11:25,000 | 00:11:28,000 | 這個還是需要做一個個案上的認定 |
| 00:11:28,000 | 00:11:30,000 | 我現在要問說 |
| 00:11:30,000 | 00:11:32,000 | 這個是認定的權利 |
| 00:11:32,000 | 00:11:34,000 | 是在屬於監察院 |
| 00:11:34,000 | 00:11:36,000 | 我們沒辦法幫監察院回答這個問題 |
| 00:11:36,000 | 00:11:38,000 | 這個確定我們 |
| 00:11:38,000 | 00:11:40,000 | 這是行政的認定權 |
| 00:11:40,000 | 00:11:42,000 | 他的認定權以及要不要裁判 |
| 00:11:42,000 | 00:11:43,000 | 你知道我在問哪一個案子喔 |
| 00:11:43,000 | 00:11:44,000 | 我知道啊 |
| 00:11:44,000 | 00:11:45,000 | 但是你舉例說明啊 |
| 00:11:45,000 | 00:11:47,000 | 我都還沒說你就知道 |
| 00:11:47,000 | 00:11:48,000 | 我在問哪一個案子 |
| 00:11:48,000 | 00:11:49,000 | 我剛才在那邊聽 |
| 00:11:49,000 | 00:11:50,000 | 我就可以看出來 |
| 00:11:50,000 | 00:11:51,000 | 哪一個 |
| 00:11:51,000 | 00:11:54,000 | 剛才就是一個投資的行為嘛 |
| 00:11:54,000 | 00:11:57,000 | 哪一個案子是有投資行為 |
| 00:11:57,000 | 00:11:58,000 | 我剛才在問雙方行為 |
| 00:11:58,000 | 00:11:59,000 | 我想這部分委員關心的 |
| 00:11:59,000 | 00:12:01,000 | 應該今天剛才各位委員 |
| 00:12:01,000 | 00:12:02,000 | 已經都問得蠻多了嘛 |
| 00:12:02,000 | 00:12:03,000 | 所以這個一個 |
| 00:12:03,000 | 00:12:06,000 | 我們回歸到那個第14條的這些的 |
| 00:12:06,000 | 00:12:07,000 | 我也不要耽誤時間啦 |
| 00:12:07,000 | 00:12:09,000 | 我想說你們今天的回答一樣 |
| 00:12:09,000 | 00:12:11,000 | 不然我們下次就請司法修法好了 |
| 00:12:11,000 | 00:12:13,000 | 我們也看看這個 |
| 00:12:13,000 | 00:12:18,000 | 投資的話不算對價交易行為 |
| 00:12:18,000 | 00:12:19,000 | 這個一個交易行為 |
| 00:12:19,000 | 00:12:21,000 | 這個一定要合乎到 |
| 00:12:21,000 | 00:12:22,000 | 這都會公報喔 |
| 00:12:22,000 | 00:12:24,000 | 對價的一個交易的行為 |
| 00:12:24,000 | 00:12:26,000 | 那這部分要合乎這個定義 |
| 00:12:26,000 | 00:12:28,000 | 那我們只能就法條上 |
| 00:12:28,000 | 00:12:30,000 | 就做一個解釋嘛 |
| 00:12:30,000 | 00:12:31,000 | 來一個觀察 |
| 00:12:31,000 | 00:12:34,000 | 所以以後我們如果要規避這種 |
| 00:12:34,000 | 00:12:35,000 | 利害關係法 |
| 00:12:35,000 | 00:12:36,000 | 規避這種 |
| 00:12:36,000 | 00:12:37,000 | 這個法律規定的很準喔 |
| 00:12:37,000 | 00:12:39,000 | 我只要買賣股票 |
| 00:12:39,000 | 00:12:41,000 | 然後交易這樣就不算了嘛 |
| 00:12:41,000 | 00:12:42,000 | 這個是 |
| 00:12:42,000 | 00:12:44,000 | 這個就是一個很明確的 |
| 00:12:44,000 | 00:12:45,000 | 一個法律的一個規定 |
| 00:12:45,000 | 00:12:46,000 | 我當然知道啊 |
| 00:12:46,000 | 00:12:47,000 | 這很明確的規定 |
| 00:12:47,000 | 00:12:48,000 | 所以他這個買 |
| 00:12:48,000 | 00:12:50,000 | 所以我現在在問你說對價交易行為 |
| 00:12:50,000 | 00:12:51,000 | 你的認定是說 |
| 00:12:51,000 | 00:12:52,000 | 我投資股 |
| 00:12:52,000 | 00:12:53,000 | 投資你全 |
| 00:12:53,000 | 00:12:54,000 | 我沒辦法 |
| 00:12:54,000 | 00:12:55,000 | 我沒辦法在這個裡面的 |
| 00:12:55,000 | 00:12:58,000 | 假設問題去做一個認定 |
| 00:12:58,000 | 00:12:59,000 | 我想這就經過 |
| 00:12:59,000 | 00:13:00,000 | 當然要經過這個認定 |
| 00:13:00,000 | 00:13:02,000 | 當然要經過討論跟研議 |
| 00:13:02,000 | 00:13:04,000 | 是不是從個案上是不是有 |
| 00:13:04,000 | 00:13:06,000 | 有成立這樣的法條的 |
| 00:13:06,000 | 00:13:08,000 | 這樣的一個規定 |
| 00:13:08,000 | 00:13:10,000 | 那所以說在這我沒辦法就是說 |
| 00:13:10,000 | 00:13:12,000 | 舉一個例就認為這就是一個交易 |
| 00:13:12,000 | 00:13:13,000 | 只有有對價的交易 |
| 00:13:13,000 | 00:13:14,000 | 或者沒有對價交易 |
| 00:13:14,000 | 00:13:16,000 | 這我沒辦法做這樣的一個回答 |
| 00:13:17,000 | 00:13:19,000 | 所以你的答案就是不知道 |
| 00:13:19,000 | 00:13:20,000 | 不是說不知道 |
| 00:13:20,000 | 00:13:23,000 | 這個要再做一個研議嘛 |
| 00:13:23,000 | 00:13:24,000 | 這個還在 |
| 00:13:24,000 | 00:13:25,000 | 因為個案我們並不清楚 |
| 00:13:25,000 | 00:13:26,000 | 這個個案到底是怎樣 |
| 00:13:26,000 | 00:13:27,000 | 好啦我今天終於上了一個 |
| 00:13:27,000 | 00:13:29,000 | 非常珍貴的法學課 |
| 00:13:29,000 | 00:13:30,000 | 好不好 |
| 00:13:30,000 | 00:13:33,000 | 投資500萬換得股票20張 |
| 00:13:33,000 | 00:13:35,000 | 不算交易對價 |
| 00:13:35,000 | 00:13:37,000 | 這個我沒辦法去回答這個問題 |
| 00:13:37,000 | 00:13:39,000 | 我沒有就是說是或不是 |
| 00:13:39,000 | 00:13:40,000 | 我沒辦法去回答 |
| 00:13:40,000 | 00:13:42,000 | 好謝謝洪委員 |