iVOD / 170673
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林淑芬 @
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:10,240 | 好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們部長 |
| 00:00:10,240 | 00:00:11,520 | 我請石崇良部長 |
| 00:00:11,520 | 00:00:17,400 | 好 李月娥好 |
| 00:00:17,400 | 00:00:23,560 | 部長 從6月30到現在 已經三個多禮拜了 |
| 00:00:23,759 | 00:00:31,439 | 我們要問的就是說 到底知不知道為什麼會發生這種事 |
| 00:00:31,439 | 00:00:36,960 | 人民生氣的就是說 為什麼這個中聯遊子事件會 |
| 00:00:36,960 | 00:00:40,760 | 到底發生的原因是什麼 |
| 00:00:40,760 | 00:00:43,560 | 你們到現在就只有說 |
| 00:00:43,560 | 00:00:48,480 | 這個大概是熱損率允收的標準放寬了十倍 |
| 00:00:48,680 | 00:00:54,879 | 大概是中聯遊子自由過程 位於原定的管制點確實執行 |
| 00:00:54,879 | 00:00:56,400 | 你們大概這樣講嘛 |
| 00:00:56,400 | 00:01:01,599 | 可是你現在還沒辦法肯定的說 就是這個原因 |
| 00:01:01,599 | 00:01:07,160 | 當然跟委員說 這就是為什麼我們要請專家幫我們做確認 |
| 00:01:07,160 | 00:01:11,000 | 所以昨天就是專家去做這個因果關係的確認 |
| 00:01:11,000 | 00:01:16,120 | 所以這個從我們初步得到的調查結果 |
| 00:01:16,200 | 00:01:19,400 | 都是應該是以它的原料上 |
| 00:01:19,400 | 00:01:22,920 | 它在4月之後改變了這個原料 |
| 00:01:22,920 | 00:01:25,160 | 那麼原料的品質是不好的 |
| 00:01:25,160 | 00:01:27,920 | 對 製程上當然也有多個缺點 |
| 00:01:27,920 | 00:01:32,520 | 不過 到今天為止 你們主管機關還沒有辦法 |
| 00:01:32,520 | 00:01:36,960 | 百分之百明確的回答人民說 |
| 00:01:36,960 | 00:01:44,320 | 不知道污染到底在整個生產鏈上的哪一個環節發生問題 |
| 00:01:44,320 | 00:01:48,360 | 所以6月30到現在三個多禮拜了 |
| 00:01:48,360 | 00:01:53,919 | 所以我們才會說 還沒有辦法肯定的指出到底是什麼原因 |
| 00:01:53,919 | 00:01:56,679 | 這就是我們生氣的地方 |
| 00:01:56,679 | 00:02:00,520 | 這個是很嚴重的事情 這樣子是不可以的 |
| 00:02:00,520 | 00:02:04,199 | 這樣子人民當然有權利要生氣啊 |
| 00:02:04,199 | 00:02:05,080 | 那我現在要告訴你 |
| 00:02:05,080 | 00:02:09,759 | 這個也跟委員說明 當然在這個調查過程當中 |
| 00:02:09,759 | 00:02:13,760 | 因為這個廠商的作假 增加了我們的複雜度 |
| 00:02:13,760 | 00:02:14,640 | 我知道 |
| 00:02:14,640 | 00:02:16,600 | 所以它的所有的樣本因為不可信 |
| 00:02:16,600 | 00:02:20,239 | 所以我們從下游 中下游 全美去檢驗之後 |
| 00:02:20,239 | 00:02:22,079 | 然後再回去對應 |
| 00:02:22,079 | 00:02:23,320 | 其實早就應該進去 |
| 00:02:23,320 | 00:02:26,160 | 但是我要再告訴你一件事情 |
| 00:02:26,160 | 00:02:29,359 | 其實食藥署早就知道了啦 |
| 00:02:29,359 | 00:02:30,799 | 早就知道了 |
| 00:02:30,799 | 00:02:33,079 | 而且這整個事件 |
| 00:02:33,079 | 00:02:40,399 | 如果從2021年食藥署再由他們自己發表過的報告 |
| 00:02:40,440 | 00:02:45,120 | 在他們的食品藥物研究年報裡面 |
| 00:02:45,120 | 00:02:50,400 | 整個油脂產業最核心的問題早就知道了 |
| 00:02:50,400 | 00:02:52,080 | 不是食藥署知道 |
| 00:02:52,080 | 00:02:55,160 | 地方政府也都早就知道了 |
| 00:02:55,160 | 00:02:57,520 | 他們做的研究是什麼 你知道嗎 |
| 00:02:57,520 | 00:02:58,520 | 因為你還不是 |
| 00:02:58,520 | 00:03:01,480 | 當時2021年你也不是部長啦 |
| 00:03:01,480 | 00:03:03,320 | 所以我現在就跟你講一下 |
| 00:03:03,320 | 00:03:06,680 | 他們那篇研究題目叫做 |
| 00:03:06,680 | 00:03:13,800 | 食用油脂工廠實施衛生管理及食品安全管制系統的概況 |
| 00:03:13,800 | 00:03:20,280 | 這個是中央跟地方政府一起去調查產出的報告 |
| 00:03:20,280 | 00:03:24,360 | 文章裡面第一段就提到重點 |
| 00:03:24,360 | 00:03:27,600 | 食用油脂擁有多元品質指標項目 |
| 00:03:27,600 | 00:03:31,960 | 無法緊究單一檢測品質直接鑒別產品的優劣 |
| 00:03:31,960 | 00:03:35,240 | 後續仍以現場稽查試證為主 |
| 00:03:35,280 | 00:03:40,480 | 充分反映事前監控剩餘最終檢驗的重要性 |
| 00:03:40,480 | 00:03:44,720 | 所以這個中央地方聯合調查的調查報告 |
| 00:03:44,720 | 00:03:46,920 | 開宗明義就講了 |
| 00:03:46,920 | 00:03:50,080 | 這個不是最終檢驗能夠處理的 |
| 00:03:50,080 | 00:03:52,280 | 他一定要事前監控 |
| 00:03:52,280 | 00:03:56,280 | 而且仍需以現場稽查試證為主 |
| 00:03:56,280 | 00:03:59,520 | 那我要講這個是這樣子 |
| 00:03:59,520 | 00:04:00,560 | 現在啊 |
| 00:04:00,560 | 00:04:06,800 | 這一套事前監控系統到底有沒有發揮作用 |
| 00:04:06,800 | 00:04:11,480 | 而你們的HACCP系統 |
| 00:04:11,480 | 00:04:12,880 | 是吧第幾條 |
| 00:04:12,880 | 00:04:14,560 | HACCP |
| 00:04:14,560 | 00:04:16,000 | 第八條 |
| 00:04:16,000 | 00:04:18,959 | 所以這些食品業者都要符合第八條的規定 |
| 00:04:18,959 | 00:04:21,120 | 要HACCP系統 |
| 00:04:21,120 | 00:04:25,480 | 什麼是HACCP系統 |
| 00:04:25,480 | 00:04:28,520 | 就是它的食品製程的這個管控 |
| 00:04:29,200 | 00:04:34,599 | 它這個叫Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Point |
| 00:04:34,599 | 00:04:38,919 | 簡單來講就是危害重要管制點 |
| 00:04:38,919 | 00:04:41,919 | 危害分析 |
| 00:04:41,919 | 00:04:43,960 | 它的重要管制點 |
| 00:04:43,960 | 00:04:45,520 | 它的危害分析 |
| 00:04:45,520 | 00:04:47,520 | 食品安全的管制系統 |
| 00:04:47,520 | 00:04:50,240 | 整個法律就仰賴這個制度 |
| 00:04:50,240 | 00:04:53,000 | 而這個制度到底有沒有在運作 |
| 00:04:53,000 | 00:04:56,000 | 這個HACCP的管制精神 |
| 00:04:56,480 | 00:04:57,600 | 一個危害分析 |
| 00:04:57,600 | 00:05:01,120 | 第二個重要管制點 |
| 00:05:01,120 | 00:05:03,120 | 然後呢 |
| 00:05:03,120 | 00:05:05,840 | 重點是它要做到事前預防 |
| 00:05:05,840 | 00:05:09,440 | 全程監控來降低風險 |
| 00:05:09,440 | 00:05:11,160 | 我們就仰賴這個制度 |
| 00:05:11,160 | 00:05:14,080 | 今天有其他委員講HACCP |
| 00:05:14,080 | 00:05:18,760 | 大家也講到了管制的節點都沒有落實 |
| 00:05:18,760 | 00:05:20,960 | 每一個節點都出問題 |
| 00:05:20,960 | 00:05:22,360 | 但我現在要跟你講 |
| 00:05:22,360 | 00:05:23,960 | 早就知道了 |
| 00:05:23,960 | 00:05:30,000 | 2021年食藥署跟各地方衛生局 |
| 00:05:30,000 | 00:05:32,000 | 去查了一遍 |
| 00:05:32,000 | 00:05:36,520 | 所有全台灣的大型油廠都去查了一遍 |
| 00:05:36,520 | 00:05:39,520 | 有沒有符合HACCP |
| 00:05:39,520 | 00:05:40,520 | 查過了 |
| 00:05:40,520 | 00:05:42,159 | 查過了 |
| 00:05:42,159 | 00:05:43,280 | 而且呢 |
| 00:05:43,280 | 00:05:45,120 | 早就知道 |
| 00:05:45,120 | 00:05:47,120 | 這一些大型的油廠 |
| 00:05:47,120 | 00:05:49,200 | 包括中聯油脂 |
| 00:05:49,200 | 00:05:53,679 | 它整個生產的管理弱點問題出在哪裡 |
| 00:05:53,680 | 00:05:56,680 | 早就知道了 |
| 00:05:56,680 | 00:05:59,080 | 你看它的報告 |
| 00:05:59,080 | 00:06:00,880 | 所以它那個事情 |
| 00:06:00,880 | 00:06:02,560 | 它不是等到超標 |
| 00:06:02,560 | 00:06:04,800 | 然後再下架再回收 |
| 00:06:04,800 | 00:06:06,440 | 我們現在才要來看 |
| 00:06:06,440 | 00:06:08,800 | 這份報告 |
| 00:06:08,800 | 00:06:11,200 | 它有沒有發揮作用 |
| 00:06:11,200 | 00:06:13,840 | 它本篇筆跟這個PASS |
| 00:06:13,840 | 00:06:17,440 | 有沒有被列為明確危害 |
| 00:06:17,440 | 00:06:18,760 | 有沒有 |
| 00:06:18,760 | 00:06:22,040 | 還是列為環境污染物質 |
| 00:06:22,080 | 00:06:23,040 | 第二個 |
| 00:06:23,040 | 00:06:24,640 | 原料驗收製程操作 |
| 00:06:24,640 | 00:06:27,280 | 油槽儲存混槽出貨放行 |
| 00:06:27,280 | 00:06:29,400 | 有沒有設計出在出貨前 |
| 00:06:29,400 | 00:06:32,440 | 要攔下風險的監測程序 |
| 00:06:32,440 | 00:06:33,440 | 第三個 |
| 00:06:33,440 | 00:06:35,080 | 驗到異常時 |
| 00:06:35,080 | 00:06:36,880 | 矯正措施 |
| 00:06:36,880 | 00:06:39,400 | 業者到底是停用封存通報 |
| 00:06:39,400 | 00:06:41,440 | 還是現在看到的中聯油脂 |
| 00:06:41,440 | 00:06:48,600 | 就是復驗開會隱密隱瞞 |
| 00:06:48,600 | 00:06:52,000 | 那請問你們食藥署署長 |
| 00:06:52,000 | 00:06:55,040 | 當時這份報告出來 |
| 00:06:55,040 | 00:06:56,800 | 然後 |
| 00:06:56,800 | 00:07:00,760 | 這個HACCP的這個管制 |
| 00:07:00,760 | 00:07:02,280 | 這些流程 |
| 00:07:02,280 | 00:07:04,800 | 到底有沒有符合和落實 |
| 00:07:04,800 | 00:07:06,600 | 署長有沒有 |
| 00:07:06,600 | 00:07:07,200 | 蛤 |
| 00:07:07,200 | 00:07:10,200 | 這套制度在現場有沒有落實 |
| 00:07:10,200 | 00:07:13,480 | 如果以我們這一次調查這個中聯 |
| 00:07:13,480 | 00:07:15,480 | 它有好幾個管制點 |
| 00:07:15,480 | 00:07:18,080 | 沒有符合這個管制要求 |
| 00:07:18,080 | 00:07:19,560 | 不是中聯而已 |
| 00:07:19,560 | 00:07:21,200 | 我現在告訴你 |
| 00:07:21,200 | 00:07:24,280 | 使用油脂業的HACCP |
| 00:07:24,280 | 00:07:25,680 | 都是做表面的 |
| 00:07:25,680 | 00:07:27,000 | 做樣子的 |
| 00:07:27,000 | 00:07:30,240 | 完全沒有發揮預警的功能 |
| 00:07:30,240 | 00:07:31,719 | 這個不是我說了算 |
| 00:07:31,719 | 00:07:32,880 | 這個是你們 |
| 00:07:32,880 | 00:07:36,240 | 食藥署跟地方政府去查場的 |
| 00:07:36,240 | 00:07:38,400 | 結果報告在這裡 |
| 00:07:38,400 | 00:07:40,919 | 來早就知道了 |
| 00:07:40,919 | 00:07:44,880 | 107年到109年之間 |
| 00:07:44,880 | 00:07:47,360 | 地方政府加中央 |
| 00:07:47,400 | 00:07:51,920 | 共去63家使用油脂的工廠的查核 |
| 00:07:51,920 | 00:07:57,760 | 這份報告是根據63家工廠的查核的結果來的 |
| 00:07:57,760 | 00:07:58,800 | 好 |
| 00:07:58,800 | 00:08:00,760 | 裡面查核報告說 |
| 00:08:00,760 | 00:08:02,480 | 在於登錄資訊 |
| 00:08:02,480 | 00:08:04,480 | 追溯追蹤系統的符合率 |
| 00:08:04,480 | 00:08:09,040 | 大概八成這63家八成以上都符合 |
| 00:08:09,040 | 00:08:12,480 | 但是食品安全的管制系統準則 |
| 00:08:12,480 | 00:08:15,040 | 也就是HACCP |
| 00:08:15,080 | 00:08:18,280 | 出查符合率低於六成 |
| 00:08:18,280 | 00:08:22,760 | 主要缺失就是沒有落實文件或記錄管理 |
| 00:08:22,760 | 00:08:23,640 | 署長 |
| 00:08:23,640 | 00:08:28,280 | 當時這份研究報告提到HACCP有哪些 |
| 00:08:28,280 | 00:08:30,080 | 沒有落實文件管理 |
| 00:08:30,080 | 00:08:32,039 | 也沒有落實記錄管理 |
| 00:08:32,039 | 00:08:34,520 | 整個不合格率 |
| 00:08:34,520 | 00:08:38,280 | 大概超過大概四成的 |
| 00:08:38,280 | 00:08:39,960 | 好署長 |
| 00:08:39,960 | 00:08:43,480 | 有哪些缺失項目 |
| 00:08:43,520 | 00:08:45,120 | 不知道 |
| 00:08:45,120 | 00:08:46,880 | 部長你是一定不知道 |
| 00:08:46,880 | 00:08:49,800 | 但食藥署應該要知道吧 |
| 00:08:49,800 | 00:08:50,760 | 你們自己的報告 |
| 00:08:50,760 | 00:08:52,480 | 署長 |
| 00:08:52,480 | 00:08:53,600 | 蛤 |
| 00:08:53,600 | 00:08:58,160 | HACCP在2021年的報告就講了 |
| 00:08:58,160 | 00:09:00,520 | 對上面的報告有 |
| 00:09:00,520 | 00:09:02,640 | 這個部分我們在二級的驗證裡面 |
| 00:09:02,640 | 00:09:04,680 | 我們也的確在這次的修法 |
| 00:09:04,680 | 00:09:06,840 | 我們認為它的製程的確效 |
| 00:09:06,840 | 00:09:08,400 | 跟HACCP每一個節點 |
| 00:09:08,400 | 00:09:11,000 | 我們會再加強的落實 |
| 00:09:11,000 | 00:09:13,320 | 我在講2021年的報告講什麼 |
| 00:09:13,320 | 00:09:14,120 | 你看清楚 |
| 00:09:14,120 | 00:09:15,400 | 看仔細一下 |
| 00:09:17,160 | 00:09:17,880 | 蛤 |
| 00:09:17,880 | 00:09:20,000 | 它有什麼缺失項目 |
| 00:09:20,000 | 00:09:22,320 | 然後你們到現在都還找不到 |
| 00:09:22,320 | 00:09:23,440 | 發生的原因 |
| 00:09:23,440 | 00:09:27,080 | 再去把這份報告拿出來看一下 |
| 00:09:27,080 | 00:09:28,720 | 它的缺失項目集中在 |
| 00:09:28,720 | 00:09:30,440 | 食品安全管制小組 |
| 00:09:30,440 | 00:09:31,960 | 產品加工流程圖 |
| 00:09:31,960 | 00:09:34,080 | 危害分析和重要管制點 |
| 00:09:34,080 | 00:09:36,680 | 建立管制界限和監測程序 |
| 00:09:36,680 | 00:09:39,600 | 制定矯正措施和確認系統 |
| 00:09:39,600 | 00:09:41,520 | 文件還有記錄管理 |
| 00:09:41,560 | 00:09:43,760 | 然後這裡面發生什麼事情了 |
| 00:09:43,760 | 00:09:46,880 | 在食品安全管制小組裡面 |
| 00:09:46,880 | 00:09:49,880 | 2021年就是107到109年 |
| 00:09:49,880 | 00:09:52,800 | 查這63家的油廠公司 |
| 00:09:52,800 | 00:09:54,000 | 油廠啦 |
| 00:09:54,000 | 00:09:55,720 | 自由工廠啦 |
| 00:09:55,720 | 00:09:59,000 | 他們無法提出具定期 |
| 00:09:59,000 | 00:10:01,680 | 召開計畫相關會議的記錄 |
| 00:10:01,680 | 00:10:02,800 | 應當中內對 |
| 00:10:02,800 | 00:10:04,199 | 無照法律規定 |
| 00:10:04,199 | 00:10:06,000 | 無照法規規定 |
| 00:10:06,000 | 00:10:06,840 | 沒有開會 |
| 00:10:06,840 | 00:10:07,560 | 沒有檢討 |
| 00:10:07,560 | 00:10:09,319 | 沒有擬定計畫 |
| 00:10:09,319 | 00:10:10,240 | 第二個 |
| 00:10:10,280 | 00:10:11,400 | 在加工 |
| 00:10:11,400 | 00:10:14,120 | 食品加工的流程圖上 |
| 00:10:14,120 | 00:10:18,240 | 從各個原物料的驗收 |
| 00:10:18,240 | 00:10:20,320 | 直到運送所有步驟 |
| 00:10:20,320 | 00:10:23,040 | 從來沒有實際加工流程 |
| 00:10:23,040 | 00:10:25,800 | 或危害分析表的相符 |
| 00:10:25,800 | 00:10:29,200 | 他們所有的加工流程 |
| 00:10:29,200 | 00:10:30,840 | 跟危害分析表 |
| 00:10:30,840 | 00:10:34,840 | 圖表資料都不相符啦 |
| 00:10:34,840 | 00:10:37,960 | 為名列半成品或相關副產品的 |
| 00:10:37,960 | 00:10:39,320 | 相關步驟 |
| 00:10:39,400 | 00:10:41,920 | 然後這個研究分析特別提到 |
| 00:10:41,920 | 00:10:42,760 | 特別是 |
| 00:10:42,760 | 00:10:44,200 | 使用油脂工廠 |
| 00:10:44,200 | 00:10:48,760 | 異於忽略靜置沉澱或暫存等過程 |
| 00:10:48,760 | 00:10:51,520 | 各廠應與製作流程圖時 |
| 00:10:51,520 | 00:10:53,040 | 清零作業現場 |
| 00:10:53,040 | 00:10:55,040 | 逐一確認加工步驟 |
| 00:10:55,040 | 00:10:56,520 | 通通沒有在管的啦 |
| 00:10:56,520 | 00:10:58,200 | 沒有 |
| 00:10:58,200 | 00:10:58,920 | 第三個 |
| 00:10:58,920 | 00:11:03,080 | 在危害分析案重要管制點上 |
| 00:11:03,080 | 00:11:05,200 | 沒有在所有步驟上 |
| 00:11:05,200 | 00:11:08,800 | 進行危害分析啦 |
| 00:11:08,800 | 00:11:09,839 | 沒有 |
| 00:11:09,839 | 00:11:11,520 | 所有步驟都要進行危害分析 |
| 00:11:11,520 | 00:11:13,160 | 他們沒有在做 |
| 00:11:13,160 | 00:11:15,400 | 然後缺乏危害發生頻率 |
| 00:11:15,400 | 00:11:17,560 | 和嚴重性的佐證 |
| 00:11:17,560 | 00:11:20,640 | 所以計畫內容常常沒有看到 |
| 00:11:20,640 | 00:11:23,439 | 未強烈危害項目 |
| 00:11:23,439 | 00:11:25,560 | 僅以病原性的微生物啦 |
| 00:11:25,560 | 00:11:28,400 | 環境污染物質蓋誇分類 |
| 00:11:28,400 | 00:11:30,000 | 裡面 |
| 00:11:30,000 | 00:11:34,000 | 都沒有這個提出具 |
| 00:11:34,000 | 00:11:35,280 | 分析依據 |
| 00:11:35,280 | 00:11:38,359 | 辨別發生機率防治措施 |
| 00:11:38,360 | 00:11:39,800 | 沒有提供 |
| 00:11:39,800 | 00:11:43,560 | 辦定重要管制點的合理佐證 |
| 00:11:43,560 | 00:11:45,240 | 通通都沒有 |
| 00:11:45,240 | 00:11:46,160 | 只有 |
| 00:11:46,160 | 00:11:47,800 | 微生物啦環境污染物 |
| 00:11:47,800 | 00:11:49,800 | 這樣蓋誇性 |
| 00:11:49,800 | 00:11:54,600 | 這個是一個HACCP的工廠 |
| 00:11:54,600 | 00:11:57,920 | 可以這樣子做嗎 |
| 00:11:57,920 | 00:11:59,600 | 所以你們的報告還建議 |
| 00:11:59,600 | 00:12:02,120 | 要叫他們這些業者 |
| 00:12:02,120 | 00:12:04,000 | 參考衛生主管機關 |
| 00:12:04,000 | 00:12:07,080 | 在官網所提供的計畫範本外 |
| 00:12:07,080 | 00:12:08,680 | 你們還建議他們要 |
| 00:12:08,680 | 00:12:10,640 | 試實際作業情形 |
| 00:12:10,640 | 00:12:13,120 | 蒐集科學知識食品事件 |
| 00:12:13,120 | 00:12:15,640 | 或廠內製程記錄 |
| 00:12:15,640 | 00:12:18,480 | 逐步修正計畫內容 |
| 00:12:18,480 | 00:12:19,760 | 換言之啦 |
| 00:12:19,760 | 00:12:20,800 | 實用工廠 |
| 00:12:20,800 | 00:12:22,400 | 實用油紙的工廠 |
| 00:12:22,400 | 00:12:25,080 | 通常只是給主管機關 |
| 00:12:25,080 | 00:12:26,880 | 這個交差 |
| 00:12:26,880 | 00:12:29,360 | 然後書面交差了 |
| 00:12:29,360 | 00:12:31,560 | 勸你們在這個報告裡面 |
| 00:12:31,560 | 00:12:33,760 | 也沒有強烈各家工廠的實際 |
| 00:12:33,760 | 00:12:36,440 | 查驗起來什麼狀況啦 |
| 00:12:36,480 | 00:12:37,400 | 但是你們就知道 |
| 00:12:37,400 | 00:12:39,840 | 你們都不合格不合格啦 |
| 00:12:39,840 | 00:12:41,120 | 然後接下來 |
| 00:12:41,120 | 00:12:44,520 | 建立管制界線跟監測程序 |
| 00:12:44,520 | 00:12:46,160 | 這63家 |
| 00:12:46,160 | 00:12:49,000 | 最核心的那幾家有廠 |
| 00:12:49,000 | 00:12:50,960 | 沒有各廠常見 |
| 00:12:50,960 | 00:12:54,480 | 未與現場實際作業相符 |
| 00:12:54,480 | 00:12:57,680 | 未與現場實際作業相符 |
| 00:12:57,680 | 00:12:59,720 | 他們的計畫跟作業現場 |
| 00:12:59,720 | 00:13:01,240 | 都不相符啦 |
| 00:13:01,240 | 00:13:05,120 | 缺乏驗效或佐證資料啦 |
| 00:13:05,120 | 00:13:07,080 | 精查管制界線 |
| 00:13:07,080 | 00:13:10,920 | 英語監測參數直接相關 |
| 00:13:10,920 | 00:13:12,720 | 但是呢 |
| 00:13:12,720 | 00:13:13,840 | 你們還建議他說 |
| 00:13:13,840 | 00:13:15,480 | 油品過濾的步驟 |
| 00:13:15,480 | 00:13:17,360 | 要怎麼樣做 怎麼樣做 |
| 00:13:17,360 | 00:13:18,400 | 所以你就發現 |
| 00:13:18,400 | 00:13:19,760 | 你們當時就發現 |
| 00:13:19,760 | 00:13:22,680 | 他們經常性的假數據作假 |
| 00:13:22,680 | 00:13:26,000 | 然後書面的跟實際生產的 |
| 00:13:26,000 | 00:13:28,680 | 完全不符合 |
| 00:13:28,680 | 00:13:31,120 | 2021年你們報告就知道了 |
| 00:13:31,120 | 00:13:34,920 | 2018年到2020年 |
| 00:13:34,920 | 00:13:38,120 | 你們地方政府也都知道了 |
| 00:13:38,120 | 00:13:40,160 | 中央地方通通都知道 |
| 00:13:40,160 | 00:13:43,240 | 這些大型的油紙工廠 |
| 00:13:43,240 | 00:13:44,599 | 問題很多 |
| 00:13:44,599 | 00:13:46,199 | 造假很多 |
| 00:13:46,199 | 00:13:48,079 | 不符合規定很多 |
| 00:13:48,079 | 00:13:50,360 | HACCP |
| 00:13:50,360 | 00:13:53,120 | 輪履行事啦 |
| 00:13:53,120 | 00:13:55,439 | 接下來大家看 |
| 00:13:55,439 | 00:13:58,280 | 制定矯正措施和確認系統 |
| 00:13:58,280 | 00:14:00,040 | 當監測的結果顯示 |
| 00:14:00,040 | 00:14:02,480 | 偏離管制界線或議長時 |
| 00:14:02,480 | 00:14:04,839 | 應該立即採取矯正措施 |
| 00:14:04,840 | 00:14:06,520 | 但是你看你們查場 |
| 00:14:06,520 | 00:14:08,480 | 沒有落實確認程序 |
| 00:14:08,480 | 00:14:12,440 | 為完整建立矯正措施或確認程序 |
| 00:14:12,440 | 00:14:15,160 | 所以這個 |
| 00:14:15,160 | 00:14:16,600 | 嚴定矯正內容的時候 |
| 00:14:16,600 | 00:14:19,880 | 容易遺漏異常產品的處理 |
| 00:14:19,880 | 00:14:22,520 | 當食品因變異至違反規定 |
| 00:14:22,520 | 00:14:23,920 | 有危害健康治癒者 |
| 00:14:23,920 | 00:14:25,720 | 應有適當回收 |
| 00:14:25,720 | 00:14:28,240 | 處理銷毀的作業流程 |
| 00:14:28,240 | 00:14:30,040 | 結果都沒有落實 |
| 00:14:30,040 | 00:14:31,320 | 沒有 |
| 00:14:31,320 | 00:14:32,920 | 今天流出去了 |
| 00:14:32,920 | 00:14:34,320 | 就是這樣子 |
| 00:14:34,360 | 00:14:35,760 | 你們早就知道了 |
| 00:14:35,760 | 00:14:36,680 | 再來 |
| 00:14:36,680 | 00:14:39,000 | 在文件及紀錄管制上 |
| 00:14:39,000 | 00:14:41,880 | 你們的HACCP系統 |
| 00:14:41,880 | 00:14:43,000 | 很多 |
| 00:14:43,000 | 00:14:44,640 | 包括方法標準 |
| 00:14:44,640 | 00:14:45,800 | 各種檢驗結果 |
| 00:14:45,800 | 00:14:47,000 | 都要做成書面紀錄 |
| 00:14:47,000 | 00:14:48,080 | 連同相關文件一樣 |
| 00:14:48,080 | 00:14:49,360 | 會成為檔案 |
| 00:14:49,360 | 00:14:50,800 | 經查各廠 |
| 00:14:50,800 | 00:14:52,360 | 提具上開資料 |
| 00:14:52,360 | 00:14:56,560 | 都有未確實簽署及註記的日期 |
| 00:14:56,560 | 00:15:01,720 | 無法提具相關資料或紀錄內容 |
| 00:15:01,720 | 00:15:04,240 | 2021年的報告都早知道了 |
| 00:15:04,960 | 00:15:07,760 | 他們這些油紙工廠 |
| 00:15:07,760 | 00:15:10,720 | 都資料提供不全 |
| 00:15:10,720 | 00:15:12,440 | 沒有確實簽署 |
| 00:15:12,440 | 00:15:14,600 | 沒有註記日期 |
| 00:15:16,760 | 00:15:18,440 | 你們早就知道了 |
| 00:15:18,440 | 00:15:19,160 | 所以你們知道 |
| 00:15:19,160 | 00:15:21,400 | 他們文件紀錄不落實 |
| 00:15:21,400 | 00:15:25,760 | HACCP出查符合率低於六成 |
| 00:15:25,760 | 00:15:29,160 | 合格率只有四成多 |
| 00:15:30,720 | 00:15:32,960 | 有沒有針對這個報告之後 |
| 00:15:33,120 | 00:15:37,760 | 列為後續追蹤改善的管制 |
| 00:15:37,760 | 00:15:40,000 | 有沒有不預警的抽查 |
| 00:15:40,000 | 00:15:42,240 | 有沒有回頭去查當年的缺失 |
| 00:15:42,240 | 00:15:44,320 | 有沒有真的持續改善 |
| 00:15:44,320 | 00:15:47,840 | 有沒有把HACCP文件紀錄不落實的 |
| 00:15:47,840 | 00:15:51,360 | 列為使用油紙業的高風險指標 |
| 00:15:51,360 | 00:15:52,000 | 有沒有 |
| 00:15:52,000 | 00:15:52,320 | 好 |
| 00:15:52,320 | 00:15:53,240 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:15:53,240 | 00:15:56,080 | 謝謝委員這麼詳細的 |
| 00:15:56,080 | 00:15:58,240 | 把我們這個報告檢視一遍 |
| 00:15:58,240 | 00:15:59,240 | 那第一個 |
| 00:15:59,240 | 00:16:02,280 | 這個是出查的缺失率 |
| 00:16:02,319 | 00:16:03,560 | 所以這每一案 |
| 00:16:03,560 | 00:16:06,079 | 其實後面都有追蹤改善 |
| 00:16:06,079 | 00:16:07,280 | 這是第一次 |
| 00:16:07,280 | 00:16:08,120 | 這個地方 |
| 00:16:08,120 | 00:16:10,040 | 你們查了三年 |
| 00:16:10,040 | 00:16:11,839 | 你們查了三年 |
| 00:16:11,839 | 00:16:13,640 | 對這個就是統計起來的 |
| 00:16:13,640 | 00:16:15,640 | 這從107到109 |
| 00:16:15,640 | 00:16:18,040 | 這個是比較早期的 |
| 00:16:18,040 | 00:16:19,640 | 所以當時候查完之後 |
| 00:16:19,640 | 00:16:21,800 | 都還要去追蹤他有沒有這樣改 |
| 00:16:21,800 | 00:16:23,600 | 所以他都有改善的紀錄 |
| 00:16:23,600 | 00:16:25,640 | 同時把這個紀錄資料 |
| 00:16:25,640 | 00:16:27,319 | 還會交給地方 |
| 00:16:27,319 | 00:16:30,040 | 那麼再做後續的年度的追蹤 |
| 00:16:30,040 | 00:16:32,160 | 所以這個都有照這樣做 |
| 00:16:32,199 | 00:16:33,319 | 所以這個是出查 |
| 00:16:33,319 | 00:16:35,680 | 最好是有照這樣子做 |
| 00:16:35,680 | 00:16:37,120 | 從中聯油紙來看 |
| 00:16:37,120 | 00:16:39,280 | 是沒有這樣子做 |
| 00:16:39,280 | 00:16:43,000 | 從中聯油紙這一次的事情來看 |
| 00:16:43,000 | 00:16:46,000 | 從2021年報告到現在 |
| 00:16:46,000 | 00:16:48,560 | 一樣沒有落實 |
| 00:16:48,560 | 00:16:50,160 | 一樣沒有改善 |
| 00:16:50,160 | 00:16:53,319 | 一樣只有對政府趨於偽移 |
| 00:16:53,319 | 00:16:54,560 | 哪裡有改善 |
| 00:16:54,560 | 00:16:55,600 | 有嗎 |
| 00:16:55,600 | 00:16:57,920 | 從中聯油紙這個個案來看 |
| 00:16:57,920 | 00:16:59,439 | 有改善嗎 |
| 00:16:59,439 | 00:17:01,319 | 冰凍三尺 |
| 00:17:01,480 | 00:17:03,560 | 非一日之寒 |
| 00:17:03,560 | 00:17:05,320 | 油紙工廠 |
| 00:17:05,320 | 00:17:09,320 | 這一些油紙業者長期就是這樣子 |
| 00:17:09,320 | 00:17:10,920 | 所以我再問你們 |
| 00:17:10,920 | 00:17:12,400 | 署長 |
| 00:17:12,400 | 00:17:14,440 | 這個你說他有落實了 |
| 00:17:14,440 | 00:17:17,720 | 你說他有改善了 |
| 00:17:17,720 | 00:17:21,960 | 那為什麼還會發生中聯這個事情 |
| 00:17:21,960 | 00:17:24,600 | 為什麼還會發生這個事情 |
| 00:17:24,600 | 00:17:28,440 | 當然這個還有後續追蹤的頻率 |
| 00:17:28,440 | 00:17:29,600 | 這個查完之後 |
| 00:17:29,600 | 00:17:33,760 | 當然他會對這一次的查核結果做改善 |
| 00:17:33,760 | 00:17:36,159 | 但是後面的年度 |
| 00:17:36,159 | 00:17:37,840 | 還是需要繼續追蹤 |
| 00:17:37,840 | 00:17:40,120 | 所以那個追蹤的程度 |
| 00:17:40,120 | 00:17:46,000 | 所以業者自主管理這種事情就不行 |
| 00:17:46,000 | 00:17:48,879 | 你這樣講之後後續要繼續追蹤 |
| 00:17:48,879 | 00:17:52,360 | 他改善給政府看完以後就不遵守了 |
| 00:17:52,360 | 00:17:56,679 | 改善是為了虛擬偽移給政府看的 |
| 00:17:56,720 | 00:18:00,520 | 你看完以後我就固態附盟 |
| 00:18:00,520 | 00:18:02,240 | 維持原狀 |
| 00:18:02,240 | 00:18:04,440 | 繼續擺爛 |
| 00:18:04,440 | 00:18:06,320 | 那我們來看中聯油紙 |
| 00:18:06,320 | 00:18:07,600 | 我不是要具體 |
| 00:18:07,600 | 00:18:10,520 | 只是談HACCP的這個報告而已 |
| 00:18:10,520 | 00:18:13,400 | 我們來對應中聯油紙來看 |
| 00:18:13,400 | 00:18:15,240 | 你看中聯油紙7月6號 |
| 00:18:15,240 | 00:18:19,000 | 自己公布在網站上的資料 |
| 00:18:19,000 | 00:18:20,120 | 來 |
| 00:18:20,120 | 00:18:21,920 | 他現在 |
| 00:18:21,920 | 00:18:23,200 | 2021 |
| 00:18:23,200 | 00:18:24,480 | 他現在2021 |
| 00:18:24,480 | 00:18:25,080 | 2022 |
| 00:18:25,080 | 00:18:26,520 | 2023 |
| 00:18:26,560 | 00:18:27,760 | 以及今年 |
| 00:18:27,760 | 00:18:29,760 | 都出現了這個PACE |
| 00:18:29,760 | 00:18:31,200 | 就是多環方向拼 |
| 00:18:31,200 | 00:18:34,480 | 快要超過監測指標值10PPB的 |
| 00:18:34,480 | 00:18:36,160 | 這一些數據 |
| 00:18:36,160 | 00:18:36,960 | 就是說 |
| 00:18:36,960 | 00:18:39,160 | 美國豆都是零減出 |
| 00:18:39,160 | 00:18:42,840 | 然後巴西豆都有減出 |
| 00:18:42,840 | 00:18:44,320 | 然後 |
| 00:18:44,320 | 00:18:47,879 | 111年的4月25的這個4PACE |
| 00:18:47,879 | 00:18:50,560 | 已經達到8.7PPB |
| 00:18:50,560 | 00:18:52,400 | 今年的4月22 |
| 00:18:52,400 | 00:18:54,920 | 那個BAP也達到1.6PPB |
| 00:18:54,960 | 00:18:56,520 | 都是零戒指 |
| 00:18:56,520 | 00:18:59,080 | 離門檻也不很遠 |
| 00:18:59,080 | 00:19:00,120 | 所以 |
| 00:19:00,120 | 00:19:01,440 | 他其實都看了 |
| 00:19:01,440 | 00:19:05,400 | 他自己偷偷的放上去的 |
| 00:19:05,400 | 00:19:07,720 | 那我們就看到這種狀況的時候 |
| 00:19:07,720 | 00:19:11,080 | 你如果真的有HACCP這個制度 |
| 00:19:11,080 | 00:19:12,800 | 有運作 |
| 00:19:12,800 | 00:19:17,240 | 如果HACCP制度真的有運作的話 |
| 00:19:17,240 | 00:19:20,160 | 那我們是不是要有危害分析 |
| 00:19:20,160 | 00:19:22,280 | 要管制點 |
| 00:19:22,320 | 00:19:25,800 | 然後就要有陰影的對策 |
| 00:19:25,800 | 00:19:27,000 | 然後他們有嗎 |
| 00:19:27,000 | 00:19:29,360 | 他們有做嗎 |
| 00:19:29,360 | 00:19:30,240 | 所以 |
| 00:19:30,240 | 00:19:31,440 | 原本是 |
| 00:19:31,440 | 00:19:33,840 | 把歷年的BAP |
| 00:19:33,840 | 00:19:35,480 | 4PACE偏高的數值 |
| 00:19:35,480 | 00:19:38,040 | 納入HACCP的危害分析 |
| 00:19:38,040 | 00:19:39,879 | 要設定原料驗收 |
| 00:19:39,879 | 00:19:40,879 | 出油檢測 |
| 00:19:40,879 | 00:19:42,160 | 精煉脫臭 |
| 00:19:42,160 | 00:19:43,399 | 油槽管線 |
| 00:19:43,399 | 00:19:44,760 | 混批流樣 |
| 00:19:44,760 | 00:19:47,480 | 還有成品泛行等重要管制點 |
| 00:19:47,480 | 00:19:50,080 | 那一旦數值反覆偏高 |
| 00:19:50,120 | 00:19:52,560 | 就要啟動原因分析加密檢驗 |
| 00:19:52,560 | 00:19:54,879 | 暫停放顯號異常矯正 |
| 00:19:54,879 | 00:19:57,120 | 但你主管機關 |
| 00:19:57,120 | 00:19:58,600 | 他地方政府去稽查 |
| 00:19:58,600 | 00:20:01,320 | 也不是只有看檢驗報告是否合格 |
| 00:20:01,320 | 00:20:04,439 | 還要看歷年趨勢產地批次差異 |
| 00:20:04,439 | 00:20:06,800 | 各重要管制點的監測數據 |
| 00:20:06,800 | 00:20:08,879 | 原料到成品各階段的變化 |
| 00:20:08,879 | 00:20:11,120 | 檢驗結果出來前是否已經出貨 |
| 00:20:11,120 | 00:20:15,560 | 以及下游檢驗跟上游流樣是不是一致 |
| 00:20:15,560 | 00:20:17,720 | 結果你們的HACCP |
| 00:20:17,720 | 00:20:19,560 | 為什麼沒有辦法把關到這一些 |
| 00:20:19,600 | 00:20:20,240 | 為什麼 |
| 00:20:21,440 | 00:20:22,120 | 為什麼 |
| 00:20:22,120 | 00:20:23,840 | 這一次我們會來強化 |
| 00:20:23,840 | 00:20:25,399 | 改善這個HACCP |
| 00:20:25,399 | 00:20:27,840 | 這一次就我們都吃下去吞下去了 |
| 00:20:27,840 | 00:20:29,080 | 你才說要 |
| 00:20:29,080 | 00:20:31,320 | 這一次我們都吃下去吞下去 |
| 00:20:31,320 | 00:20:33,560 | 你才說你要強化才要改善 |
| 00:20:33,560 | 00:20:37,120 | 我現在是告訴你2021年就知道了 |
| 00:20:37,120 | 00:20:40,600 | 結果我們看到的HACCP制度 |
| 00:20:40,600 | 00:20:45,000 | 變成只是文件查核官樣文章 |
| 00:20:45,040 | 00:20:49,480 | 而不是真正的風險把關的制度 |
| 00:20:50,560 | 00:20:51,160 | 所以 |
| 00:20:51,160 | 00:20:57,920 | 所以我們的HACCP變成作假的HACCP |
| 00:20:58,760 | 00:21:00,680 | 所以對應我們來對應第一個缺失 |
| 00:21:00,680 | 00:21:02,280 | 我要分析不具體 |
| 00:21:05,120 | 00:21:05,800 | 你的 |
| 00:21:06,720 | 00:21:08,080 | 這個BAP |
| 00:21:08,080 | 00:21:09,880 | 就本偏比或者是PACE |
| 00:21:09,880 | 00:21:11,400 | PAHS |
| 00:21:11,960 | 00:21:14,520 | 你是把它放它是都沒有分類 |
| 00:21:14,800 | 00:21:17,040 | 它把它放到環境污染物質 |
| 00:21:17,639 | 00:21:18,920 | 還是微生物 |
| 00:21:19,600 | 00:21:21,080 | 他們這一次放到哪裡去 |
| 00:21:21,080 | 00:21:21,720 | 中聯 |
| 00:21:22,720 | 00:21:24,680 | 你們不是有去查場了嗎 |
| 00:21:24,680 | 00:21:26,320 | 沒有特別裂項 |
| 00:21:26,320 | 00:21:27,600 | 它沒有特別裂項 |
| 00:21:28,280 | 00:21:31,080 | 它應該要裂成化學危害 |
| 00:21:32,280 | 00:21:35,879 | 它的每一個環節 |
| 00:21:35,879 | 00:21:38,760 | 原料儲存壓榨 |
| 00:21:38,760 | 00:21:39,639 | 精煉 |
| 00:21:40,240 | 00:21:43,879 | 油槽暫存混槽出貨放行都有可能發生 |
| 00:21:43,880 | 00:21:44,960 | 它很可能 |
| 00:21:45,400 | 00:21:47,440 | 發生污染或者是它就 |
| 00:21:48,160 | 00:21:50,120 | 檢驗都必須要落實 |
| 00:21:50,120 | 00:21:51,720 | 才能夠圍堵 |
| 00:21:51,720 | 00:21:54,520 | 那一個油品的流出那個風險的擴大 |
| 00:21:55,000 | 00:21:57,840 | 所以它必須很嚴重的去管制它 |
| 00:21:57,840 | 00:21:59,760 | 它絕對是一個管制點 |
| 00:21:59,760 | 00:22:01,880 | 而且都有這些數據出來了 |
| 00:22:02,560 | 00:22:05,240 | 結果它沒有把BAP |
| 00:22:05,240 | 00:22:06,800 | 沒有把PACE |
| 00:22:06,800 | 00:22:10,320 | 列為危害重要的管制點 |
| 00:22:10,960 | 00:22:14,720 | 它連列為風險物質可能都沒有 |
| 00:22:15,080 | 00:22:19,760 | 那這個HACCP有在運作嗎 |
| 00:22:20,760 | 00:22:22,320 | 我是要從中聯有紙來談 |
| 00:22:22,320 | 00:22:24,360 | 搞不好整個國家 |
| 00:22:24,800 | 00:22:29,360 | 所有食品業者的HACCP制度都是做假的 |
| 00:22:29,800 | 00:22:31,600 | 都是做樣子的 |
| 00:22:32,439 | 00:22:36,480 | 我們台灣中華民國的HACCP制度 |
| 00:22:37,120 | 00:22:40,000 | 是不是都是瓦解了 |
| 00:22:40,000 | 00:22:41,600 | 早就沒用了 |
| 00:22:42,400 | 00:22:44,200 | 好 第二個缺失我們再看 |
| 00:22:44,520 | 00:22:48,160 | 管制界線跟監測程序沒有對上現場 |
| 00:22:49,480 | 00:22:51,160 | 你的作業程序不相符 |
| 00:22:51,160 | 00:22:53,040 | 缺乏驗收或佐證資料 |
| 00:22:53,560 | 00:22:59,920 | 然後中聯有紙對本篇筆BAHS的監測程序是什麼 |
| 00:23:01,280 | 00:23:03,560 | 檢測出來前能不能出貨 |
| 00:23:04,000 | 00:23:05,280 | 那它自主檢驗 |
| 00:23:06,240 | 00:23:09,200 | 它的管制點設在哪裡 |
| 00:23:09,920 | 00:23:13,600 | 這些檢驗能不能在出貨以前發揮管制作用 |
| 00:23:14,040 | 00:23:16,200 | 還是變成產品的出貨了 |
| 00:23:16,480 | 00:23:17,680 | 報告出來了 |
| 00:23:17,680 | 00:23:18,640 | 還繼續做 |
| 00:23:18,640 | 00:23:19,880 | 還不管報告 |
| 00:23:20,160 | 00:23:22,120 | 還繼續把毒油流出來 |
| 00:23:22,920 | 00:23:26,840 | 如果檢驗的結果不能決定放行 |
| 00:23:27,080 | 00:23:28,600 | 檢驗就不是 |
| 00:23:29,600 | 00:23:34,240 | 檢驗的結果不能決定管制不放行 |
| 00:23:34,440 | 00:23:36,920 | 檢驗就不是一個管制點了 |
| 00:23:37,880 | 00:23:40,360 | 檢驗成為一個管制點 |
| 00:23:40,600 | 00:23:44,280 | 是檢驗出來有問題絕對不能繼續生產 |
| 00:23:44,520 | 00:23:45,680 | 不能出貨 |
| 00:23:46,240 | 00:23:47,840 | 它才是一個管制點 |
| 00:23:48,600 | 00:23:49,360 | 結果呢 |
| 00:23:50,000 | 00:23:51,800 | 它只是一個事後資料 |
| 00:23:51,800 | 00:23:53,920 | 它繼續生產繼續出貨 |
| 00:23:54,360 | 00:23:57,240 | 然後報告出來只是一個事後的資料 |
| 00:23:58,000 | 00:24:02,960 | 這一種HACCP制度叫做HACCP嗎 |
| 00:24:03,520 | 00:24:05,160 | 部長你自己說一下 |
| 00:24:05,640 | 00:24:08,440 | 台灣這一種HACCP |
| 00:24:08,840 | 00:24:11,640 | 還叫做HACCP嗎 |
| 00:24:12,560 | 00:24:13,640 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:24:13,640 | 00:24:16,160 | 我們這一次已經在7月份就要求 |
| 00:24:16,480 | 00:24:17,640 | 這些油品呢 |
| 00:24:17,800 | 00:24:19,200 | 上游的最上游的這一層 |
| 00:24:19,200 | 00:24:22,240 | 要逐批檢驗之後才能夠出貨 |
| 00:24:22,440 | 00:24:23,680 | 這是第一個改變 |
| 00:24:24,000 | 00:24:26,800 | 第二個HACCP是一個預警系統 |
| 00:24:26,880 | 00:24:28,040 | 就您剛剛提到的 |
| 00:24:28,040 | 00:24:29,400 | 它完全沒有預警 |
| 00:24:29,400 | 00:24:32,280 | 它不見得要等到你的下游 |
| 00:24:32,320 | 00:24:33,800 | 奧斯哥你講都沒有用 |
| 00:24:33,800 | 00:24:35,120 | 要在前端呢 |
| 00:24:35,120 | 00:24:35,879 | 它是一個預警系統 |
| 00:24:35,879 | 00:24:38,200 | 整套制度都破功 |
| 00:24:38,200 | 00:24:40,080 | 去控制它的整個製程當中的品質 |
| 00:24:40,080 | 00:24:41,840 | 我們你不要講這個理論 |
| 00:24:41,840 | 00:24:44,280 | 它的這些管制點可以去呈現出 |
| 00:24:44,280 | 00:24:46,560 | 你講的理論我們都知道啦 |
| 00:24:46,920 | 00:24:50,200 | 現在所有食品廠的HACCP |
| 00:24:50,480 | 00:24:52,639 | 如果就像中聯有指 |
| 00:24:52,920 | 00:24:54,639 | 就像2021年 |
| 00:24:54,840 | 00:24:57,160 | 你們去查遍所有的油廠 |
| 00:24:57,160 | 00:24:58,800 | 所寫的報告一樣 |
| 00:24:59,240 | 00:25:00,760 | 那我可以在這裡宣布 |
| 00:25:00,920 | 00:25:03,960 | 國家的HACCP制度 |
| 00:25:04,160 | 00:25:05,879 | 已經不存在了 |
| 00:25:06,160 | 00:25:07,120 | 假的啦 |
| 00:25:07,480 | 00:25:08,320 | 好再來 |
| 00:25:09,520 | 00:25:10,720 | 你管制點 |
| 00:25:10,800 | 00:25:13,600 | 然後要設監測要管制界線 |
| 00:25:13,600 | 00:25:15,800 | 然後對應出來是要矯正措施 |
| 00:25:16,360 | 00:25:18,200 | 矯正措施大家都看到了 |
| 00:25:18,200 | 00:25:19,240 | 出問題了 |
| 00:25:19,480 | 00:25:21,720 | 一定要停止生產 |
| 00:25:21,720 | 00:25:24,000 | 要回收要下架要銷毀 |
| 00:25:24,400 | 00:25:25,200 | 所以怎麼看呢 |
| 00:25:25,200 | 00:25:27,520 | 就是沒有嘛什麼都沒有 |
| 00:25:27,520 | 00:25:29,600 | 它藉著復驗還繼續生產 |
| 00:25:30,920 | 00:25:33,200 | 所以第一個反應就是再驗一次 |
| 00:25:33,200 | 00:25:34,760 | 再開會再等結果 |
| 00:25:35,000 | 00:25:37,640 | 而那不是矯正措施 |
| 00:25:37,640 | 00:25:40,080 | 是繼續毒害人民 |
| 00:25:40,760 | 00:25:43,240 | 你這個HACCP也沒用 |
| 00:25:43,640 | 00:25:44,440 | 第四個 |
| 00:25:44,840 | 00:25:47,360 | 文件記錄不可信 |
| 00:25:47,760 | 00:25:51,000 | 你這個報告就文件記錄都不可信 |
| 00:25:51,240 | 00:25:55,560 | 對照中聯有指這個案件更嚴重 |
| 00:25:55,920 | 00:25:58,240 | 它不只是產品超標 |
| 00:25:58,240 | 00:26:00,480 | 文件沒有確實落實 |
| 00:26:00,520 | 00:26:02,200 | 連批號隱藏 |
| 00:26:02,440 | 00:26:05,640 | 它連檢驗結果本身都出現不一致 |
| 00:26:05,920 | 00:26:08,200 | 它的留存的樣本 |
| 00:26:08,440 | 00:26:10,480 | 跟下游檢出的東西 |
| 00:26:10,720 | 00:26:11,720 | 還不一樣 |
| 00:26:13,400 | 00:26:15,400 | 你要怎麼去釐清污染原因 |
| 00:26:15,400 | 00:26:17,120 | 檢驗結果還不一致 |
| 00:26:17,760 | 00:26:20,240 | 中聯整個自主管理失靈的臨檢 |
| 00:26:21,240 | 00:26:23,960 | 整個制度管理的失靈的環節 |
| 00:26:23,960 | 00:26:26,040 | 都要落實到記錄上 |
| 00:26:26,160 | 00:26:26,760 | 可是 |
| 00:26:27,440 | 00:26:30,240 | 現在連記錄都造假 |
| 00:26:30,720 | 00:26:33,240 | 樣品都是掉包的 |
| 00:26:33,520 | 00:26:34,880 | 然後故意隱匿 |
| 00:26:34,880 | 00:26:36,080 | 而你們早就知道 |
| 00:26:36,080 | 00:26:38,840 | 游職場都這樣子長期造假 |
| 00:26:39,560 | 00:26:41,320 | 然後沒有留記錄 |
| 00:26:42,560 | 00:26:44,360 | 記錄還是假的 |
| 00:26:46,200 | 00:26:50,120 | 它留的樣檢體從採樣封存保存驗送到交接 |
| 00:26:50,280 | 00:26:51,440 | 有沒有完成記錄 |
| 00:26:51,520 | 00:26:52,120 | 沒有 |
| 00:26:52,400 | 00:26:53,720 | 有沒有確實的 |
| 00:26:53,880 | 00:26:54,760 | 誠實的 |
| 00:26:55,000 | 00:26:56,320 | 這個申報 |
| 00:26:56,400 | 00:26:57,040 | 沒有 |
| 00:26:57,240 | 00:26:58,320 | 檢體放在哪裡 |
| 00:26:58,320 | 00:26:59,560 | 有沒有掉包 |
| 00:26:59,720 | 00:27:00,720 | 不知道 |
| 00:27:01,480 | 00:27:03,200 | 封緘編號簽收 |
| 00:27:03,919 | 00:27:07,280 | 連檢體的這個狀況都搞不清楚 |
| 00:27:07,520 | 00:27:09,879 | 所以你的HACCP |
| 00:27:10,200 | 00:27:12,320 | HACCP |
| 00:27:13,040 | 00:27:14,919 | 對照中聯游職來看 |
| 00:27:15,360 | 00:27:16,679 | 沒用 |
| 00:27:17,000 | 00:27:18,600 | 對照你的報告 |
| 00:27:18,639 | 00:27:20,360 | 2021年的報告 |
| 00:27:20,639 | 00:27:22,200 | 完全如出一策 |
| 00:27:22,200 | 00:27:24,480 | 沒有改善沒有改進 |
| 00:27:25,639 | 00:27:27,200 | 中聯漏報批次 |
| 00:27:27,200 | 00:27:29,120 | 也證明業者的清澈 |
| 00:27:29,159 | 00:27:31,919 | 不能直接當成事實 |
| 00:27:31,919 | 00:27:32,959 | 不是真實 |
| 00:27:34,280 | 00:27:37,000 | 連提供給政府的清澈都是假的 |
| 00:27:37,000 | 00:27:38,280 | 多麼遏止 |
| 00:27:39,120 | 00:27:40,000 | 所以在這裡 |
| 00:27:41,639 | 00:27:44,000 | 本身這些資料 |
| 00:27:44,360 | 00:27:45,159 | 文件 |
| 00:27:45,159 | 00:27:46,959 | 你們2021年就講過了 |
| 00:27:46,959 | 00:27:49,120 | 文件資料如果沒有被驗證 |
| 00:27:49,159 | 00:27:51,040 | 追溯追蹤系統 |
| 00:27:51,080 | 00:27:54,560 | 就可能只是一份業者自己填的資料 |
| 00:27:54,600 | 00:27:57,320 | 你的連追溯追蹤系統 |
| 00:27:57,479 | 00:27:58,879 | 都不可信 |
| 00:27:58,920 | 00:28:00,120 | 還什麼預警 |
| 00:28:00,120 | 00:28:01,560 | 發揮預警 |
| 00:28:01,880 | 00:28:03,360 | 這是沒用的 |
| 00:28:04,920 | 00:28:06,880 | 它不是追溯追蹤系統而已 |
| 00:28:06,880 | 00:28:08,640 | 它連在你們的這個郵便 |
| 00:28:08,640 | 00:28:11,080 | HACCP裡面都是造假的 |
| 00:28:11,200 | 00:28:12,760 | 數據都不真實 |
| 00:28:15,160 | 00:28:15,960 | 那我們 |
| 00:28:16,200 | 00:28:17,680 | 我是要講說 |
| 00:28:18,440 | 00:28:21,960 | 107年2018到2020 |
| 00:28:22,360 | 00:28:26,800 | 地方政府都進去查過場都知道了 |
| 00:28:27,440 | 00:28:30,560 | 中央也跟地方一起進去 |
| 00:28:30,600 | 00:28:32,159 | 然後一起合作 |
| 00:28:32,200 | 00:28:34,760 | 一起產出這一個報告 |
| 00:28:35,080 | 00:28:38,120 | 這個報告在開頭和結尾都提到 |
| 00:28:38,240 | 00:28:39,520 | 自107年起 |
| 00:28:39,520 | 00:28:40,520 | 衛福部公告 |
| 00:28:40,520 | 00:28:43,680 | 擴大實施食品安全管制系統 |
| 00:28:44,360 | 00:28:47,080 | 你們擴大了HACCP的管制系統 |
| 00:28:47,639 | 00:28:50,560 | 食藥署聯合地方衛生局完成查核 |
| 00:28:50,560 | 00:28:52,440 | 食用油脂63加 |
| 00:28:52,600 | 00:28:56,639 | 為這篇研究分析報告的起頭 |
| 00:28:57,360 | 00:28:59,399 | 文章的結尾感謝 |
| 00:28:59,399 | 00:29:05,040 | 本文稽查數據由各地方衛生局及食藥署 |
| 00:29:05,040 | 00:29:09,480 | 各區管中心同仁共同合作的成果 |
| 00:29:10,200 | 00:29:12,040 | 所以常都知道 |
| 00:29:12,200 | 00:29:13,320 | 你們都知道 |
| 00:29:13,320 | 00:29:14,800 | 地方政府知道 |
| 00:29:14,800 | 00:29:16,840 | 中央食藥署也知道 |
| 00:29:17,000 | 00:29:18,960 | 業者長期造假 |
| 00:29:19,159 | 00:29:22,600 | 業者長期在郵便加工裡面 |
| 00:29:22,760 | 00:29:24,159 | 都是高風險 |
| 00:29:24,200 | 00:29:25,440 | 因為造假 |
| 00:29:25,600 | 00:29:27,440 | 沒有危害分析 |
| 00:29:27,840 | 00:29:31,480 | 然後也不落實該有的管制 |
| 00:29:31,680 | 00:29:34,240 | 沒有危害的管制點 |
| 00:29:34,400 | 00:29:36,360 | 然後也沒有因應的 |
| 00:29:36,560 | 00:29:38,920 | 處理的這個程序 |
| 00:29:39,000 | 00:29:40,160 | 長期重放 |
| 00:29:40,160 | 00:29:41,280 | 你們都知道 |
| 00:29:41,280 | 00:29:43,000 | 可是你們長期重放 |
| 00:29:43,280 | 00:29:46,160 | 長期讓人民吃下肚 |
| 00:29:47,400 | 00:29:49,400 | HACCP是假的 |
| 00:29:49,400 | 00:29:50,960 | 那人民真可憐 |
| 00:29:51,040 | 00:29:52,560 | 人民真可憐 |
| 00:29:52,960 | 00:29:54,960 | 因為政府長期都知道 |
| 00:29:55,800 | 00:29:58,240 | 使用油脂工廠的問題 |
| 00:29:58,720 | 00:30:00,000 | 很嚴重 |
| 00:30:02,480 | 00:30:04,560 | 記錄不落實 |
| 00:30:04,560 | 00:30:05,960 | 危害分析不具體 |
| 00:30:05,960 | 00:30:07,399 | 矯正措施不完整 |
| 00:30:07,399 | 00:30:09,320 | 記錄管理都是造假 |
| 00:30:11,760 | 00:30:14,240 | 所以我們是要講 |
| 00:30:14,560 | 00:30:17,560 | 地方跟中央在那一次的 |
| 00:30:17,560 | 00:30:19,760 | 使用油脂工廠查核 |
| 00:30:20,040 | 00:30:21,840 | 共同完成了以後 |
| 00:30:22,199 | 00:30:24,959 | 然後有沒有要求地方 |
| 00:30:24,959 | 00:30:27,639 | 每年都要繼續查廠 |
| 00:30:27,840 | 00:30:30,040 | 你的HACCP廠 |
| 00:30:30,199 | 00:30:31,520 | 每年都要回報 |
| 00:30:31,520 | 00:30:33,520 | 轄內使用油脂工廠 |
| 00:30:34,040 | 00:30:36,240 | HACCP的重大缺失 |
| 00:30:36,240 | 00:30:37,720 | 是不是重複發生 |
| 00:30:37,760 | 00:30:38,840 | 有沒有要求 |
| 00:30:39,919 | 00:30:41,360 | 不要說地方政府去查 |
| 00:30:41,360 | 00:30:42,840 | 一次兩次或幾次 |
| 00:30:42,879 | 00:30:44,840 | 查什麼才是重點 |
| 00:30:46,040 | 00:30:46,760 | 有沒有要求 |
| 00:30:46,760 | 00:30:47,560 | 施耀淑 |
| 00:30:48,600 | 00:30:49,399 | 施耀淑 |
| 00:30:49,600 | 00:30:50,959 | 有沒有要求 |
| 00:30:51,200 | 00:30:52,120 | 你都是這樣子 |
| 00:30:52,120 | 00:30:53,400 | 你們要求他們具體改善 |
| 00:30:53,400 | 00:30:54,520 | 你們說他改善了 |
| 00:30:54,520 | 00:30:56,120 | 每年還要進去看嗎 |
| 00:30:56,560 | 00:30:57,200 | 有沒有 |
| 00:30:57,480 | 00:30:58,080 | 沒有 |
| 00:30:59,440 | 00:31:00,600 | 跟委員說明 |
| 00:31:00,600 | 00:31:02,040 | 這個是因為 |
| 00:31:02,040 | 00:31:03,280 | 如同您剛剛提到 |
| 00:31:03,280 | 00:31:05,000 | 剛好是新的 |
| 00:31:05,160 | 00:31:07,520 | 這個HACCP上路的時候 |
| 00:31:07,520 | 00:31:09,080 | 去初期去查的 |
| 00:31:09,080 | 00:31:11,280 | 所以這個後續都是要求 |
| 00:31:11,280 | 00:31:12,600 | 他們要去改善 |
| 00:31:12,720 | 00:31:15,880 | 這個按照新的HACCP標準去做 |
| 00:31:16,400 | 00:31:16,920 | 對啊 |
| 00:31:16,920 | 00:31:18,520 | 之後的紀錄就 |
| 00:31:18,640 | 00:31:20,360 | 因為各家的表現不一樣 |
| 00:31:20,360 | 00:31:21,560 | 就交由地方 |
| 00:31:21,560 | 00:31:23,479 | 那麼去根據他的風險程度 |
| 00:31:23,479 | 00:31:25,840 | 去做後續的年度追蹤 |
| 00:31:25,840 | 00:31:26,240 | 不是 |
| 00:31:26,240 | 00:31:27,280 | 所以並不是所有 |
| 00:31:27,280 | 00:31:28,439 | 你們去看了 |
| 00:31:28,439 | 00:31:31,040 | 就發現普遍都是這樣的問題 |
| 00:31:31,320 | 00:31:32,719 | 那你們有沒有要求 |
| 00:31:32,719 | 00:31:34,919 | 地方政府每年都要去查藏 |
| 00:31:34,919 | 00:31:38,280 | HACCP的這一些重大的缺失 |
| 00:31:38,639 | 00:31:40,399 | 這一些重大的缺失 |
| 00:31:40,399 | 00:31:43,479 | 直指HACCP的最核心的 |
| 00:31:43,479 | 00:31:45,240 | 管制上的重點 |
| 00:31:45,520 | 00:31:47,080 | 而都沒有做到 |
| 00:31:47,320 | 00:31:48,840 | 所以你應該要 |
| 00:31:48,879 | 00:31:50,439 | 都要求地方政府 |
| 00:31:50,439 | 00:31:52,080 | 你去查藏的時候 |
| 00:31:52,080 | 00:31:54,080 | 不能夠再重複發生 |
| 00:31:54,280 | 00:31:55,720 | 你應該也要在中央 |
| 00:31:55,720 | 00:31:56,600 | 要建立一套 |
| 00:31:56,600 | 00:31:58,720 | 跨縣市的共享資料 |
| 00:31:59,000 | 00:32:00,240 | 讓中聯 |
| 00:32:00,240 | 00:32:02,240 | 這一種大型有紙平台 |
| 00:32:02,360 | 00:32:05,040 | 不是指有所在地的衛生局 |
| 00:32:05,040 | 00:32:07,840 | 去單獨掌控那一些資料 |
| 00:32:07,840 | 00:32:09,600 | 每年各地方 |
| 00:32:10,639 | 00:32:11,679 | 查上來資料 |
| 00:32:11,679 | 00:32:14,320 | 應該共同share到這個平台上 |
| 00:32:14,320 | 00:32:16,760 | 大家會看到普遍的風險是什麼 |
| 00:32:17,760 | 00:32:19,000 | 跟委員說 |
| 00:32:19,000 | 00:32:21,520 | 這個只要是去查藏的 |
| 00:32:21,520 | 00:32:23,240 | 那麼HACCP |
| 00:32:23,240 | 00:32:26,080 | 被我們公告要實施HACCP |
| 00:32:26,080 | 00:32:27,320 | 還有GHP的 |
| 00:32:27,320 | 00:32:29,120 | 這個都是一定要查的 |
| 00:32:29,120 | 00:32:31,440 | 你們HACCP一年查幾次 |
| 00:32:31,440 | 00:32:32,520 | 幾年查一次 |
| 00:32:32,879 | 00:32:34,240 | 或者是一年查幾次 |
| 00:32:34,240 | 00:32:36,080 | 這個是地方在執行 |
| 00:32:36,080 | 00:32:37,440 | 只要它是去查藏的 |
| 00:32:37,440 | 00:32:39,040 | 對 不管中央或地方 |
| 00:32:39,040 | 00:32:41,040 | 到底是多久要查一次 |
| 00:32:42,360 | 00:32:44,000 | 這每一個樣態是不一樣 |
| 00:32:44,000 | 00:32:44,600 | 因為 |
| 00:32:45,120 | 00:32:45,879 | 這個 |
| 00:32:46,199 | 00:32:49,560 | 我們公告要做HACCP的 |
| 00:32:49,560 | 00:32:50,600 | 那麼去查藏的時候 |
| 00:32:50,600 | 00:32:52,600 | 就會查HACCP |
| 00:32:52,600 | 00:32:54,600 | 所以才會有這些資料出來 |
| 00:32:54,600 | 00:32:55,399 | 所以你們只有專案的時候 |
| 00:32:55,399 | 00:32:57,399 | 才會去查HACCP |
| 00:32:57,399 | 00:32:59,399 | 沒有專案平台就不查 |
| 00:32:59,399 | 00:33:02,399 | 地方常規的查核就是查這個 |
| 00:33:02,399 | 00:33:05,399 | 它就是GHP加HACCP的查核 |
| 00:33:05,399 | 00:33:07,399 | 常規的查核要多久一次 |
| 00:33:07,879 | 00:33:09,480 | 常規的查核就要 |
| 00:33:09,480 | 00:33:11,800 | 根據它的風險不一樣 |
| 00:33:11,800 | 00:33:13,120 | 沒有 |
| 00:33:13,120 | 00:33:15,120 | 所以這一篇報告指出 |
| 00:33:15,120 | 00:33:16,120 | 也有一年的 |
| 00:33:16,120 | 00:33:17,120 | 也有比較 |
| 00:33:17,120 | 00:33:18,120 | 不是這一次的查 |
| 00:33:18,120 | 00:33:21,120 | 107到19年查完就沒了 |
| 00:33:22,120 | 00:33:23,120 | 也不是地方完成 |
| 00:33:23,120 | 00:33:25,120 | 這個缺失的複查就好了 |
| 00:33:25,120 | 00:33:29,120 | 中央知道整個有此產業的缺失 |
| 00:33:29,120 | 00:33:31,120 | 地方政府也知道 |
| 00:33:31,120 | 00:33:35,120 | 轄內業者實際造假數據 |
| 00:33:35,120 | 00:33:37,120 | 不完整的問題 |
| 00:33:37,120 | 00:33:40,120 | 兩邊都應該要把這個事情 |
| 00:33:40,120 | 00:33:42,120 | 當成很嚴肅的事情 |
| 00:33:43,120 | 00:33:45,120 | 結果中央跟地方政府 |
| 00:33:45,120 | 00:33:47,120 | 可能長期都知情 |
| 00:33:47,120 | 00:33:49,120 | 卻待呼職責 |
| 00:33:49,120 | 00:33:52,120 | 導致今天中聯有此 |
| 00:33:52,120 | 00:33:54,120 | 這整個系統性的風暴 |
| 00:33:54,120 | 00:33:57,120 | 我現在再跟你最後一項的提醒 |
| 00:33:57,120 | 00:33:59,120 | 我最後一項的提醒是要告訴你說 |
| 00:33:59,120 | 00:34:03,120 | 整個HACCP如果是這樣子運作的話 |
| 00:34:03,120 | 00:34:05,120 | 不會是只有中聯 |
| 00:34:05,120 | 00:34:08,120 | 也不會是只有有品的廠商 |
| 00:34:09,120 | 00:34:12,120 | 如果HACCP是照這樣子 |
| 00:34:12,120 | 00:34:14,120 | 虛與偽移 |
| 00:34:14,120 | 00:34:17,120 | 然後官樣文章管理的話 |
| 00:34:17,120 | 00:34:21,120 | 整個國家的HACCP制度破功 |
| 00:34:21,120 | 00:34:24,120 | 問題就很嚴重了 |
| 00:34:24,120 | 00:34:28,120 | 所以你應該要由職場 |
| 00:34:28,120 | 00:34:32,120 | 這個預警危害風險的控制 |
| 00:34:32,120 | 00:34:34,120 | 然後事前的預防 |
| 00:34:34,120 | 00:34:36,120 | 通通不但沒有 |
| 00:34:36,120 | 00:34:38,120 | 事後發生了還掩蓋 |
| 00:34:38,120 | 00:34:40,120 | 然後讓我們吃更多 |
| 00:34:40,120 | 00:34:42,120 | 這是很嚴重的事情 |
| 00:34:43,120 | 00:34:45,120 | 跟委員說明了 |
| 00:34:45,120 | 00:34:47,120 | 這不會是全面性 |
| 00:34:47,120 | 00:34:49,120 | 因為以這個四大廠來講 |
| 00:34:49,120 | 00:34:51,120 | 其他這個廠 |
| 00:34:51,120 | 00:34:54,120 | 其實都維持一定的品質標準 |
| 00:34:54,120 | 00:34:56,120 | 不要太早在這裡拍胸脯 |
| 00:34:56,120 | 00:34:59,120 | 不要在這裡太早拍胸脯 |
| 00:34:59,120 | 00:35:01,120 | 我就說過了 |
| 00:35:01,120 | 00:35:04,120 | 業者沒有他律 |
| 00:35:04,120 | 00:35:07,120 | 只有業者的自主管理 |
| 00:35:07,120 | 00:35:10,120 | 這些數據是真是假不知道 |
| 00:35:10,120 | 00:35:14,120 | 這些樣品有沒有調包不知道 |
| 00:35:14,120 | 00:35:16,120 | 送業的是A |
| 00:35:16,120 | 00:35:18,120 | 供貨給廠商 |
| 00:35:18,120 | 00:35:20,120 | 下游廠商的是B |
| 00:35:20,120 | 00:35:22,120 | 沒有政府介入 |
| 00:35:22,120 | 00:35:24,120 | 什麼都不知道 |
| 00:35:25,120 | 00:35:27,120 | 不要在這裡 |
| 00:35:27,120 | 00:35:29,120 | 太早幫業者拍胸脯 |
| 00:35:29,120 | 00:35:31,120 | 我敢在這裡說 |
| 00:35:31,120 | 00:35:34,120 | 業者絕對是需要 |
| 00:35:34,120 | 00:35:36,120 | 是需要有 |
| 00:35:36,120 | 00:35:38,120 | 政府去管制才會 |
| 00:35:38,120 | 00:35:40,120 | 做得好的啦 |
| 00:35:40,120 | 00:35:43,120 | 所以今天是要告訴大家說 |
| 00:35:43,120 | 00:35:45,120 | HACCP制度 |
| 00:35:45,120 | 00:35:47,120 | 你們最好是讓他 |
| 00:35:47,120 | 00:35:49,120 | 真的是真的HACCP |
| 00:35:49,120 | 00:35:51,120 | 不是假的 |
| 00:35:51,120 | 00:35:53,120 | 從中聯遊子來看就是假的 |
| 00:35:53,120 | 00:35:55,120 | 從2021年的報告 |
| 00:35:55,120 | 00:35:57,120 | 都知道了 |
| 00:35:57,120 | 00:36:00,120 | 再對照出來你說他改善合格了 |
| 00:36:00,120 | 00:36:02,120 | 都是騙人的 |
| 00:36:03,120 | 00:36:05,120 | 這次我們在修法裡面 |
| 00:36:05,120 | 00:36:08,120 | 也會針對HACCP去強化要求 |