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邱議瑩 @ 第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第22次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,000 | 00:00:01,000 | 發言 |
| 00:00:18,000 | 00:00:20,000 | 謝謝主席 我請一下龔部長 |
| 00:00:20,000 | 00:00:21,000 | 請經濟部龔部長 |
| 00:00:21,000 | 00:00:23,000 | 請 |
| 00:00:27,000 | 00:00:28,000 | 周圍 早安 |
| 00:00:28,000 | 00:00:30,000 | 部長早 部長我想請教 |
| 00:00:30,000 | 00:00:33,000 | 我們今天在討論這個能源管理法的修正草案 |
| 00:00:33,000 | 00:00:35,000 | 主要 |
| 00:00:35,000 | 00:00:37,000 | 先來看第十條 |
| 00:00:37,000 | 00:00:40,000 | 剛剛您的報告裡頭也很清楚的談到 |
| 00:00:40,000 | 00:00:42,000 | 我們在第十條的修正內容是 |
| 00:00:42,000 | 00:00:47,000 | 希望這些用電大戶能夠自行設置所謂的發電 |
| 00:00:47,000 | 00:00:49,000 | 跟儲能設備 |
| 00:00:49,000 | 00:00:50,000 | 是的 |
| 00:00:50,000 | 00:00:51,000 | 請教第一個問題 |
| 00:00:51,000 | 00:00:55,000 | 你所謂的用電大戶是用電大概多少算是用電大戶 |
| 00:00:55,000 | 00:01:00,000 | 依照我們的再生能源管理條例是5000千瓦算是用電大戶 |
| 00:01:00,000 | 00:01:02,000 | 這個標準有沒有改變 |
| 00:01:02,000 | 00:01:06,000 | 我們是希望在執法裡面來做一些討論 |
| 00:01:06,000 | 00:01:08,000 | 那會跟相關業者做一些討論 |
| 00:01:08,000 | 00:01:11,000 | 所以你的用電大戶的定義還沒有定出來 |
| 00:01:11,000 | 00:01:13,000 | 多少叫做用電大戶 |
| 00:01:13,000 | 00:01:15,000 | 這個要在執法裡面做討論 |
| 00:01:15,000 | 00:01:17,000 | 但是你母法裡面就直接寫用電大戶 |
| 00:01:17,000 | 00:01:20,000 | 到時候我不知道什麼叫用電大戶 |
| 00:01:20,000 | 00:01:23,000 | 我要怎麼跟你繼續討論下去 |
| 00:01:23,000 | 00:01:26,000 | 事實上大致上剛剛委員提到的這個 |
| 00:01:26,000 | 00:01:30,000 | 你如果是依照再生能源條例的5000千瓦算是用電大戶 |
| 00:01:30,000 | 00:01:32,000 | 未來的標準會改變嗎 |
| 00:01:32,000 | 00:01:36,000 | 執法會大致上這個方向 |
| 00:01:36,000 | 00:01:39,000 | 那我們還會跟立案關係人做一些討論 |
| 00:01:39,000 | 00:01:42,000 | 不過委員剛剛提的那個是我們大概一個基礎 |
| 00:01:42,000 | 00:01:45,000 | 好 那第二個問題想請教 |
| 00:01:45,000 | 00:01:51,000 | 如果你這樣子界定所謂的用電大戶的定義之後 |
| 00:01:51,000 | 00:01:54,000 | 我們的這個條文內容寫得非常清楚 |
| 00:01:54,000 | 00:02:00,000 | 要它設置自用的發電跟儲能設備 |
| 00:02:00,000 | 00:02:02,000 | 那我進一步請教 |
| 00:02:02,000 | 00:02:06,000 | 這些用電大戶我想未來不可能只有工廠 |
| 00:02:06,000 | 00:02:10,000 | 對不對 有可能是這些大型的商辦 |
| 00:02:10,000 | 00:02:13,000 | 或者是大型的商場等等 |
| 00:02:13,000 | 00:02:15,000 | 或者是一些企業的總部 |
| 00:02:15,000 | 00:02:18,000 | 或者是資料中心 |
| 00:02:18,000 | 00:02:22,000 | 未來的這些AI大數據的這一些資料中心 |
| 00:02:22,000 | 00:02:27,000 | 它可能都會設立在所謂的都會區裡頭 |
| 00:02:27,000 | 00:02:30,000 | 那我進一步請教在這些都會區裡面 |
| 00:02:30,000 | 00:02:32,000 | 這些建築它非常有可能 |
| 00:02:32,000 | 00:02:37,000 | 它缺乏所謂的大面積可以讓你做儲能的設備 |
| 00:02:37,000 | 00:02:40,000 | 或者是大面積可以讓你做所謂的太陽能光電 |
| 00:02:40,000 | 00:02:47,000 | 那它如何來符合您的條文裡頭規定 |
| 00:02:47,000 | 00:02:50,000 | 自用發電跟儲能設備 |
| 00:02:50,000 | 00:02:53,000 | 如果它沒有足夠的空間可以來設立的話 |
| 00:02:53,000 | 00:02:55,000 | 那這些人它不是不設喔 |
| 00:02:55,000 | 00:02:57,000 | 是它根本沒有附地可以設 |
| 00:02:57,000 | 00:03:00,000 | 那請教怎麼辦 |
| 00:03:00,000 | 00:03:03,000 | 我們馬上就講說你沒有設的話就罰錢 |
| 00:03:03,000 | 00:03:05,000 | 那請問我們要怎麼樣協助他們 |
| 00:03:06,000 | 00:03:08,000 | 這個就是我剛剛提到的 |
| 00:03:08,000 | 00:03:11,000 | 就是說為什麼我們要跟相關的利害關係人 |
| 00:03:11,000 | 00:03:13,000 | 做一個具體的討論 |
| 00:03:13,000 | 00:03:15,000 | 要實際上可行才可以 |
| 00:03:15,000 | 00:03:17,000 | 相關的利害關係人是誰 |
| 00:03:17,000 | 00:03:18,000 | 比如說 |
| 00:03:18,000 | 00:03:20,000 | 剛剛您提到的這個用盤大 |
| 00:03:20,000 | 00:03:22,000 | 我講的這些商辦、商場 |
| 00:03:22,000 | 00:03:24,000 | 或者是AI資料中心 |
| 00:03:24,000 | 00:03:25,000 | 對對對 |
| 00:03:25,000 | 00:03:31,000 | 最近有一個業者來找我討論 |
| 00:03:31,000 | 00:03:33,000 | 他們想要在這些商辦 |
| 00:03:33,000 | 00:03:35,000 | 或者是大型的商場 |
| 00:03:35,000 | 00:03:39,000 | 去設置所謂的高效率天然氣發電機組 |
| 00:03:39,000 | 00:03:41,000 | 部長您知道這件事情嗎 |
| 00:03:41,000 | 00:03:43,000 | 就是固定式的這個 |
| 00:03:43,000 | 00:03:46,000 | 對固定式的所謂的天然氣發電機組 |
| 00:03:46,000 | 00:03:51,000 | 可是呢現在的法令訂定不清楚 |
| 00:03:51,000 | 00:03:54,000 | 所以它這些天然機組的設置 |
| 00:03:54,000 | 00:03:57,000 | 是屬於經濟部主管 |
| 00:03:57,000 | 00:03:59,000 | 還是屬於地方政府主管 |
| 00:03:59,000 | 00:04:01,000 | 它設置在商場裡面 |
| 00:04:01,000 | 00:04:03,000 | 它設置在這個所謂的辦公大樓裡面 |
| 00:04:03,000 | 00:04:05,000 | 是在台北市 |
| 00:04:05,000 | 00:04:07,000 | 可是台北市又有這一個 |
| 00:04:07,000 | 00:04:10,000 | 都市計畫裡面的這些管理條例 |
| 00:04:10,000 | 00:04:12,000 | 那未來 |
| 00:04:12,000 | 00:04:14,000 | 部長這個當然是很細啦 |
| 00:04:14,000 | 00:04:17,000 | 所以你們未來在執法的討論上面 |
| 00:04:17,000 | 00:04:21,000 | 是不是應該跨部會 |
| 00:04:21,000 | 00:04:24,000 | 來做相關的執法的訂定 |
| 00:04:24,000 | 00:04:26,000 | 我們部門一開始就告訴你說 |
| 00:04:26,000 | 00:04:28,000 | 你不設的話我要給你罰錢 |
| 00:04:28,000 | 00:04:29,000 | 但是它要怎麼設 |
| 00:04:29,000 | 00:04:31,000 | 它能夠怎麼設立 |
| 00:04:31,000 | 00:04:34,000 | 包括這些儲電的設備 |
| 00:04:34,000 | 00:04:36,000 | 發電的設備 |
| 00:04:36,000 | 00:04:39,000 | 在都會地區它能夠怎麼設 |
| 00:04:39,000 | 00:04:42,000 | 其實這些大概現在都是一個很模糊的概念 |
| 00:04:42,000 | 00:04:44,000 | 來部長能不能說明一下 |
| 00:04:44,000 | 00:04:46,000 | 是所以剛剛委員報告 |
| 00:04:46,000 | 00:04:48,000 | 就像您講的這個事實上 |
| 00:04:48,000 | 00:04:49,000 | 它是非常多元而複雜 |
| 00:04:49,000 | 00:04:51,000 | 所以我們會找利害關係人 |
| 00:04:51,000 | 00:04:52,000 | 包括地方政府 |
| 00:04:52,000 | 00:04:54,000 | 相關的消防單位 |
| 00:04:54,000 | 00:04:57,000 | 會跨單位跨機構來做一些討論 |
| 00:04:57,000 | 00:05:00,000 | 讓這個方向可以具體核心 |
| 00:05:00,000 | 00:05:02,000 | 往下走下去 |
| 00:05:02,000 | 00:05:06,000 | 那這個部分什麼時候要開始具體進行 |
| 00:05:06,000 | 00:05:08,000 | 只要這個法案通過以後 |
| 00:05:08,000 | 00:05:11,000 | 在一定的一般是半年內 |
| 00:05:11,000 | 00:05:14,000 | 我們執法就會要設立完成 |
| 00:05:14,000 | 00:05:16,000 | 其實我覺得部長你如果說 |
| 00:05:16,000 | 00:05:19,000 | 等法令通過以後才把執法設立完成 |
| 00:05:19,000 | 00:05:21,000 | 時序上可能是會有一點慢 |
| 00:05:21,000 | 00:05:23,000 | 是不是應該現在就應該要去 |
| 00:05:23,000 | 00:05:27,000 | 各地區去聽取各個業界也好 |
| 00:05:27,000 | 00:05:29,000 | 或者是這些未來有可能是 |
| 00:05:29,000 | 00:05:31,000 | 必須被列為用電大戶的這一些 |
| 00:05:31,000 | 00:05:33,000 | 所謂的你講的利害關係人 |
| 00:05:33,000 | 00:05:35,000 | 去聽取他們的意見跟想法 |
| 00:05:35,000 | 00:05:39,000 | 因為他們自己應該都會有很多想要做儲能 |
| 00:05:39,000 | 00:05:42,000 | 或者是說做自體的這些發電的供電設備 |
| 00:05:42,000 | 00:05:44,000 | 但是法令上面對他們來講 |
| 00:05:44,000 | 00:05:46,000 | 其實有一點致歃難行 |
| 00:05:46,000 | 00:05:48,000 | 他也不知道要怎麼樣去申請 |
| 00:05:48,000 | 00:05:50,000 | 是不是你們能夠來聽取一下他們的意見 |
| 00:05:50,000 | 00:05:53,000 | 我們初步大概已經有辦過兩場了 |
| 00:05:53,000 | 00:05:55,000 | 後續還會持續來辦理 |
| 00:05:55,000 | 00:05:58,000 | 如果說今天討論大家對這個方向 |
| 00:05:58,000 | 00:06:00,000 | 還是可以認同的話 |
| 00:06:00,000 | 00:06:04,000 | 那我們會加緊而且把這個場次可以來擴充 |
| 00:06:04,000 | 00:06:08,000 | 另外就是也要再請教部長 |
| 00:06:08,000 | 00:06:10,000 | 關於你們這個第六條之一 |
| 00:06:10,000 | 00:06:14,000 | 你要所謂的這個供應事業要去識別化 |
| 00:06:14,000 | 00:06:17,000 | 然後我們要來公布他所謂的 |
| 00:06:17,000 | 00:06:20,000 | 這一些用電的資訊等等 |
| 00:06:20,000 | 00:06:24,000 | 部長這個您覺得會不會涉及到 |
| 00:06:24,000 | 00:06:28,000 | 所謂的個資法或者是對於有些營業秘密 |
| 00:06:28,000 | 00:06:31,000 | 雖然我把公司的名字弄掉 |
| 00:06:31,000 | 00:06:36,000 | 但是其實有心人還是很容易去做推估 |
| 00:06:36,000 | 00:06:38,000 | 還是很容易去做判別 |
| 00:06:38,000 | 00:06:41,000 | 對包含我們所謂的去識別化 |
| 00:06:41,000 | 00:06:45,000 | 就是要做到他沒有辦法判讀 |
| 00:06:45,000 | 00:06:46,000 | 要做到這個部分 |
| 00:06:46,000 | 00:06:51,000 | 你覺得以現在的所謂的科技進程 |
| 00:06:51,000 | 00:06:54,000 | 跟現在的網路搜尋 |
| 00:06:54,000 | 00:06:57,000 | 你如何把它做到他沒有辦法判別 |
| 00:06:57,000 | 00:06:59,000 | 我覺得很難耶 |
| 00:06:59,000 | 00:07:01,000 | 你只要公布是在哪一個工業區 |
| 00:07:01,000 | 00:07:04,000 | 哪一個區塊哪一個地段 |
| 00:07:04,000 | 00:07:08,000 | 用電多少其實都很容易追溯的耶 |
| 00:07:08,000 | 00:07:10,000 | 對就是說 |
| 00:07:10,000 | 00:07:13,000 | 部長這個你們應該要再好好的 |
| 00:07:13,000 | 00:07:15,000 | 慎重的思考 |
| 00:07:15,000 | 00:07:19,000 | 甚至我覺得這個跟本席提的法條 |
| 00:07:19,000 | 00:07:22,000 | 其實是有一些相關聯性 |
| 00:07:22,000 | 00:07:23,000 | 我的法條講說 |
| 00:07:23,000 | 00:07:26,000 | 任何人不得故意散播影響國家能源供應 |
| 00:07:26,000 | 00:07:29,000 | 國家能源基礎設施跟違反科學依據 |
| 00:07:29,000 | 00:07:32,000 | 的能源相關不實的謠言或假訊息 |
| 00:07:32,000 | 00:07:33,000 | 是的 |
| 00:07:33,000 | 00:07:35,000 | 您支持嗎 |
| 00:07:35,000 | 00:07:38,000 | 我們是開放討論方向上我們也覺得是 |
| 00:07:38,000 | 00:07:41,000 | 散播對國家能源不實的訊息 |
| 00:07:41,000 | 00:07:43,000 | 你跟我說你要開放討論 |
| 00:07:43,000 | 00:07:47,000 | 你自己支持你連支持這兩個都不敢講 |
| 00:07:47,000 | 00:07:50,000 | 你講說你是開放討論 |
| 00:07:50,000 | 00:07:53,000 | 後面我說我方向上我支持 |
| 00:07:53,000 | 00:07:55,000 | 對 |
| 00:07:55,000 | 00:07:57,000 | 部長我想是這樣啦 |
| 00:07:57,000 | 00:07:59,000 | 很不想跟你大聲啦 |
| 00:07:59,000 | 00:08:04,000 | 但是我覺得在你剛剛講的這一些對於 |
| 00:08:04,000 | 00:08:09,000 | 用電業者這些公司的這些所謂的去識別化的部分 |
| 00:08:09,000 | 00:08:11,000 | 機敏資料的保護上面 |
| 00:08:11,000 | 00:08:15,000 | 我覺得你們可能還要再持續的還要再三思啦 |
| 00:08:15,000 | 00:08:17,000 | 還在更緊密的思考 |
| 00:08:17,000 | 00:08:19,000 | 因為我不認為你這樣講 |
| 00:08:19,000 | 00:08:22,000 | 他就完全推估不出來或者是找不出來 |
| 00:08:22,000 | 00:08:26,000 | 對於這些企業大戶的這些用電資訊 |
| 00:08:26,000 | 00:08:29,000 | 那本席提的這個法案 |
| 00:08:29,000 | 00:08:32,000 | 我覺得這個對於國家的能源基礎建設 |
| 00:08:32,000 | 00:08:34,000 | 這個是非常重大的 |
| 00:08:34,000 | 00:08:39,000 | 我也期待行政院能夠支持 |
| 00:08:39,000 | 00:08:42,000 | 你不要跟我講說你開放討論 |
| 00:08:42,000 | 00:08:45,000 | 我覺得散播不實遙遠這個區塊 |
| 00:08:45,000 | 00:08:47,000 | 不管是在哪一個方位上面來講 |
| 00:08:47,000 | 00:08:51,000 | 政府都應該要大力的打擊這些散播假訊息 |
| 00:08:51,000 | 00:08:53,000 | 好不好 |
| 00:08:53,000 | 00:08:54,000 | 謝謝邱英文 |