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洪毓祥 @ 第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議
| Start Time | End Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00:00,030 | 00:00:01,630 | 謝謝主席 |
| 00:00:01,630 | 00:00:04,770 | 我們有請這個國防部部長 |
| 00:00:04,770 | 00:00:06,630 | 還有這個採購室主任 |
| 00:00:06,630 | 00:00:08,629 | 請顧部長 採購室趙主任 |
| 00:00:13,360 | 00:00:14,719 | 是 宏偉 |
| 00:00:14,719 | 00:00:16,720 | 好 部長好 主任好 |
| 00:00:16,720 | 00:00:21,119 | 我想今天的題目是國軍軍品的採購 |
| 00:00:21,119 | 00:00:22,799 | 旅約爭議跟違約 |
| 00:00:22,799 | 00:00:24,799 | 然後造成我們的延宕 |
| 00:00:24,799 | 00:00:28,799 | 這個分析跟精進的作為 |
| 00:00:28,799 | 00:00:30,800 | 那 |
| 00:00:30,560 | 00:00:32,560 | 首先是 |
| 00:00:31,820 | 00:00:33,820 | 問一下 |
| 00:00:33,820 | 00:00:38,820 | 我查一下整個國防部在立法院的相關報告 |
| 00:00:38,820 | 00:00:40,820 | 或者是對外的說明 |
| 00:00:40,820 | 00:00:42,820 | 目前我們確認的 |
| 00:00:42,820 | 00:00:45,820 | 我就是確認 比較official的話 |
| 00:00:45,820 | 00:00:47,820 | 當然包含我們的 |
| 00:00:47,620 | 00:00:50,620 | F16V AGME54 CMK48 |
| 00:00:50,620 | 00:00:53,620 | 那金額大概是差不多 |
| 00:00:53,620 | 00:00:55,620 | 當然這個有些已經到貨 |
| 00:00:55,620 | 00:00:56,620 | 有些可能還沒 |
| 00:00:56,620 | 00:00:58,620 | 這些的狀況目前 |
| 00:00:58,620 | 00:01:01,620 | 是不是國防部比較officially承認的 |
| 00:01:01,620 | 00:01:03,620 | 比較屬於重大的延宕的項目 |
| 00:01:03,620 | 00:01:06,620 | 方委員那個您上面這個這兩個數字 |
| 00:01:06,620 | 00:01:08,620 | 可能都跟實際有點落差 |
| 00:01:08,620 | 00:01:12,620 | 第一個 我們目前執行中的案子一共是25案 |
| 00:01:12,620 | 00:01:14,620 | 然後已經 |
| 00:01:14,620 | 00:01:16,620 | 實際執行中的案子一共25案 |
| 00:01:16,620 | 00:01:18,620 | 總金額的部分是 |
| 00:01:18,620 | 00:01:21,620 | 換算成台幣大概是9500多億台幣 |
| 00:01:21,620 | 00:01:25,620 | 那在這9500多億台幣裡面 |
| 00:01:25,620 | 00:01:27,620 | 已經完成交付的部分 |
| 00:01:27,620 | 00:01:29,620 | 已經超過5700億 |
| 00:01:29,620 | 00:01:31,620 | 那也就是說 |
| 00:01:31,620 | 00:01:33,620 | 目前還沒有執行中 |
| 00:01:33,620 | 00:01:36,620 | 還在執行中的最大的一個延宕的部分 |
| 00:01:36,620 | 00:01:38,620 | 就是16V Block軌道 |
| 00:01:38,620 | 00:01:40,620 | 那這個案子裡面 |
| 00:01:40,620 | 00:01:42,620 | 2400... |
| 00:01:43,780 | 00:01:45,780 | M48那個重煤的部分 |
| 00:01:45,780 | 00:01:47,780 | 跟AGM-147 |
| 00:01:47,780 | 00:01:49,780 | 因為還沒有完成預約 |
| 00:01:49,780 | 00:01:52,780 | 所以他的初期付款的兩個案子的值是很低的 |
| 00:01:52,780 | 00:01:55,780 | 目前這兩個案子已經付出去的 |
| 00:01:55,780 | 00:01:57,780 | 大概是台幣4億多 |
| 00:01:57,780 | 00:02:03,780 | 但是還是跟我們當時所提出來的建軍的規劃還是delay嗎 |
| 00:02:04,230 | 00:02:06,230 | 對這兩個案子delay |
| 00:02:22,790 | 00:02:24,790 | 除了這樣子之外 |
| 00:02:24,790 | 00:02:27,790 | 就是說我們有沒有去做歷屆的統計 |
| 00:02:27,790 | 00:02:33,790 | 就是目前整個我們歷屆這樣子的採購的延宕的一個項目 |
| 00:02:33,790 | 00:02:35,790 | 原因的分析 |
| 00:02:35,790 | 00:02:37,790 | 然後以及因為這樣的延宕 |
| 00:02:37,790 | 00:02:40,790 | 所以我在當時的戰略的準備 |
| 00:02:40,790 | 00:02:42,790 | 有沒有一些的配套 |
| 00:02:42,790 | 00:02:44,790 | 有沒有做這樣子的一個分析 |
| 00:02:44,790 | 00:02:47,790 | 我們這個部分我們當然做過分析 |
| 00:02:47,790 | 00:02:50,790 | 跟我們目前對美軍購的部分 |
| 00:02:50,790 | 00:02:52,790 | 受到最大... |
| 00:02:52,790 | 00:02:54,790 | 因為今天的題目他沒有對美軍購 |
| 00:02:54,790 | 00:02:56,790 | 我是說軍購的延宕 |
| 00:02:56,790 | 00:02:58,790 | 所以我意思是說 |
| 00:02:59,770 | 00:03:01,770 | 可能有對美軍購的部分 |
| 00:03:01,770 | 00:03:03,770 | 對不對對美軍購的部分 |
| 00:03:03,770 | 00:03:06,770 | 那另外一個的話可能就是我們自己要照 |
| 00:03:06,770 | 00:03:09,770 | 對不對不管是跟國外的技術合作要照 |
| 00:03:09,770 | 00:03:11,770 | 那這個 |
| 00:03:11,550 | 00:03:13,550 | 我們召委也是非常關心 |
| 00:03:13,550 | 00:03:15,550 | 對不對不管海關全國人都關心 |
| 00:03:15,550 | 00:03:17,550 | 我經濟部去考察台船的時候 |
| 00:03:17,550 | 00:03:19,550 | 他也是說 |
| 00:03:19,550 | 00:03:21,550 | 這個也是造成我的一些的工廠 |
| 00:03:21,550 | 00:03:23,550 | 對不對的一些產能上的混亂 |
| 00:03:23,550 | 00:03:27,550 | 等等這些都有一些連帶的影響 |
| 00:03:29,110 | 00:03:31,110 | 為什麼這樣 |
| 00:03:49,350 | 00:03:51,350 | 就是說實在的這個凡事都有計畫 |
| 00:03:51,350 | 00:03:53,350 | 但計畫永遠趕不上變化 |
| 00:03:53,350 | 00:03:55,350 | 就如同你們今天分析的 |
| 00:03:55,350 | 00:03:57,350 | 不管是供應鏈 |
| 00:03:57,350 | 00:03:59,350 | 不管是廠商自我感覺異常良好 |
| 00:03:59,350 | 00:04:03,350 | 對不對或者是當時我們在訂這個需求規格 |
| 00:04:03,350 | 00:04:06,350 | 可是因為就在需要有一些的需求的變更 |
| 00:04:06,350 | 00:04:08,350 | 這我們都可以理解 |
| 00:04:08,350 | 00:04:10,350 | 對不對但是 |
| 00:04:10,300 | 00:04:13,300 | 我們就產業的採購國防的採購也都是一樣 |
| 00:04:13,300 | 00:04:15,300 | 那個大體的精神是這樣 |
| 00:04:15,300 | 00:04:17,300 | 我會去把它分析出來 |
| 00:04:17,300 | 00:04:19,300 | 然後因為這樣子的延宕 |
| 00:04:19,300 | 00:04:21,300 | 所以造成比如說 |
| 00:04:21,300 | 00:04:23,300 | 我的製程 |
| 00:04:23,300 | 00:04:24,300 | 因為這樣子的原物料 |
| 00:04:24,300 | 00:04:26,300 | 因為這樣的東西我形成了 |
| 00:04:26,300 | 00:04:28,300 | 不管是戰略的空窗或什麼 |
| 00:04:28,300 | 00:04:30,300 | 我現在意思說假設 |
| 00:04:30,490 | 00:04:34,490 | 我去把省區部我們預算中心以及這些相關的報告 |
| 00:04:34,490 | 00:04:36,490 | 做出來歷屆的 |
| 00:04:36,490 | 00:04:38,490 | 我大概整理出來像這些可能都是 |
| 00:04:38,490 | 00:04:42,490 | 那這些有些可能是採購的 |
| 00:04:42,490 | 00:04:44,490 | 那另外還有一種就是說 |
| 00:04:44,850 | 00:04:46,850 | 像這個是我們自己建的 |
| 00:04:47,550 | 00:04:48,550 | 就連我們自己建 |
| 00:04:48,550 | 00:04:51,550 | 不管是左營二港口或是特戰獨立等等 |
| 00:04:51,550 | 00:04:53,550 | 這是國內製造的 |
| 00:04:53,550 | 00:04:55,550 | 對不對那因為我們委制它 |
| 00:04:55,550 | 00:04:56,550 | 造成的delay |
| 00:04:56,550 | 00:04:58,550 | 這是第二類型 |
| 00:04:59,090 | 00:05:01,090 | 第三種類型是說 |
| 00:05:01,090 | 00:05:02,090 | 我也買了 |
| 00:05:02,090 | 00:05:03,090 | 他也交了 |
| 00:05:03,090 | 00:05:05,090 | 可是我在驗的時候發現 |
| 00:05:05,090 | 00:05:07,090 | 規格不符合 |
| 00:05:07,320 | 00:05:08,320 | 那規格不符合 |
| 00:05:08,320 | 00:05:10,320 | 我們也不能說他採購延宕 |
| 00:05:10,320 | 00:05:12,320 | 但是就是對我的戰略 |
| 00:05:12,320 | 00:05:14,320 | 或者是對當初的行程要求 |
| 00:05:14,320 | 00:05:16,320 | 所以我的意思我舉例子就是說 |
| 00:05:16,320 | 00:05:18,320 | 我們應該 |
| 00:05:18,880 | 00:05:20,880 | 為什麼今天把採購室主任叫上來 |
| 00:05:20,880 | 00:05:23,880 | 我是身為一個採購的一個主管的話 |
| 00:05:23,880 | 00:05:25,880 | 我會把過去這些歷屆分析出來 |
| 00:05:25,880 | 00:05:27,880 | 那原因是什麼 |
| 00:05:27,880 | 00:05:28,880 | 對不對 |
| 00:05:28,880 | 00:05:29,880 | 然後我們怎麼去改善 |
| 00:05:29,880 | 00:05:32,880 | 然後這個改善的措施將來是怎麼樣子 |
| 00:05:32,880 | 00:05:33,880 | 是不是 |
| 00:05:33,880 | 00:05:34,880 | 有 |
| 00:05:35,420 | 00:05:36,420 | 真的改善 |
| 00:05:36,420 | 00:05:38,420 | 就是你一次滾動式的檢討 |
| 00:05:39,720 | 00:05:42,720 | 我們今天沒有說要跟挑各位毛病都沒有 |
| 00:05:42,720 | 00:05:43,720 | 絕對都是各位不要看到 |
| 00:05:43,720 | 00:05:45,720 | 我就很defense這樣子 |
| 00:05:45,720 | 00:05:46,720 | 非常防禦性沒有 |
| 00:05:46,720 | 00:05:48,720 | 就是全力跟各位探討 |
| 00:05:48,720 | 00:05:50,720 | 因為這些東西都會碰到問題 |
| 00:05:52,010 | 00:05:54,010 | 像創未來我不曉得中科院院長在吧 |
| 00:05:56,300 | 00:05:58,300 | 創未來我問一個問題 |
| 00:05:58,300 | 00:06:00,300 | 我今天不是要單獨問創未來 |
| 00:06:00,300 | 00:06:02,300 | 但是我現在的意思是說 |
| 00:06:02,300 | 00:06:03,300 | 創立未來的話 |
| 00:06:03,300 | 00:06:06,300 | 他當時在做我們是屬於研發型的採購 |
| 00:06:06,300 | 00:06:07,300 | 還是說 |
| 00:06:08,340 | 00:06:09,340 | 我那個項目下去之後 |
| 00:06:09,340 | 00:06:12,340 | 他就真的要交到軍隊去馬上使用的 |
| 00:06:13,610 | 00:06:15,610 | 反制無人機那一塊 |
| 00:06:15,620 | 00:06:17,620 | 這比較像研發型的採購 |
| 00:06:17,620 | 00:06:19,620 | 比較像研發型的採購 |
| 00:06:19,620 | 00:06:21,620 | 所以在研發的過程當中 |
| 00:06:21,620 | 00:06:23,620 | 如果有他跟我們一般的 |
| 00:06:23,620 | 00:06:25,620 | 馬上用的採購是不一樣 |
| 00:06:25,620 | 00:06:27,620 | 跟委員報告這個可能要分兩階段 |
| 00:06:27,620 | 00:06:31,620 | 這個陸軍參謀長之前已經做過充分的說明 |
| 00:06:31,620 | 00:06:34,620 | 報告委員您講這個最主要 |
| 00:06:34,620 | 00:06:36,620 | 他是一個研發 |
| 00:06:36,620 | 00:06:39,620 | 那我要簡單的說 |
| 00:06:39,620 | 00:06:40,620 | 就是我們 |
| 00:06:41,400 | 00:06:44,400 | 當時找了國內的這個廠商 |
| 00:06:44,400 | 00:06:48,400 | 他在各方面沒有辦法有一家 |
| 00:06:48,400 | 00:06:51,400 | 單獨能夠做出一個整合 |
| 00:06:51,400 | 00:06:53,400 | 因為那是在112年的 |
| 00:06:53,400 | 00:06:55,400 | 111年8月發生的事 |
| 00:06:55,400 | 00:06:58,400 | 在112年提出這樣的一個研發的需求 |
| 00:06:58,400 | 00:07:01,400 | 那所以是由4家的4系統商 |
| 00:07:01,400 | 00:07:04,400 | 我們那這個研究案的主要精神 |
| 00:07:04,400 | 00:07:06,400 | 其實就是在整合 |
| 00:07:07,200 | 00:07:09,200 | 我的意思是這樣子 |
| 00:07:09,200 | 00:07:11,200 | 因為我有做過這些採購 |
| 00:07:11,200 | 00:07:13,200 | 或者是上次的非常熟悉 |
| 00:07:13,200 | 00:07:15,200 | 所以為什麼一直這樣問的問題就是說 |
| 00:07:15,200 | 00:07:17,200 | 他如果是屬於研發型的採購 |
| 00:07:17,200 | 00:07:19,200 | 就一開始就是講清楚 |
| 00:07:19,200 | 00:07:21,200 | 他可以是落out |
| 00:07:21,200 | 00:07:23,200 | 然後你研發了幾型之後 |
| 00:07:23,200 | 00:07:26,200 | 比如說我進到Prototype 1 2 3 |
| 00:07:26,200 | 00:07:27,200 | 不管是哪一個level |
| 00:07:27,200 | 00:07:29,200 | 或是他的成熟度達不到 |
| 00:07:29,200 | 00:07:31,200 | 我們就要想辦法 |
| 00:07:31,720 | 00:07:33,720 | 要嘛就是找國內的法人再幫他 |
| 00:07:33,720 | 00:07:36,720 | 要嘛就是真的要再找另外一家 |
| 00:07:36,720 | 00:07:38,720 | 因為像當初我們在美商去做這些 |
| 00:07:38,720 | 00:07:40,720 | 美國的軍事系統的時候 |
| 00:07:40,720 | 00:07:43,720 | 他採取的措施就是Thotogram |
| 00:07:43,720 | 00:07:45,720 | 以後今天這些委員在講的 |
| 00:07:45,720 | 00:07:48,720 | 你應該是多套研發多套採制 |
| 00:07:48,720 | 00:07:51,720 | AB系統兩家廠商人員不能夠互通的 |
| 00:07:51,720 | 00:07:53,720 | 所以兩個同時並軌研發的時候 |
| 00:07:53,720 | 00:07:55,720 | A有問題 |
| 00:07:55,720 | 00:07:56,720 | 那B不代表會有問題 |
| 00:07:56,720 | 00:07:58,720 | 因為完全是isolated的 |
| 00:07:58,720 | 00:08:00,720 | 所以我說你要把研發採購 |
| 00:08:00,720 | 00:08:02,720 | 跟這個所謂的 |
| 00:08:02,720 | 00:08:04,720 | 我真的要買上去就直接用了 |
| 00:08:04,720 | 00:08:06,720 | 這個東西是不太一樣 |
| 00:08:06,720 | 00:08:08,720 | 那在你的採購的標準跟程序 |
| 00:08:08,720 | 00:08:10,720 | 不然我覺得 |
| 00:08:11,110 | 00:08:13,110 | 他可能是一個好東西 |
| 00:08:13,110 | 00:08:14,110 | 也可能是幫國內自治 |
| 00:08:14,110 | 00:08:16,110 | 可是你們講不清楚嘛 |
| 00:08:17,260 | 00:08:19,260 | 這個是我給你的建議 |
| 00:08:19,260 | 00:08:20,260 | 是跟委員報告 |
| 00:08:20,260 | 00:08:21,260 | 因為一個是那個 |
| 00:08:21,260 | 00:08:24,260 | 112年的一個委託研究案 |
| 00:08:24,260 | 00:08:26,260 | 另外現在的這個驗收 |
| 00:08:26,260 | 00:08:29,260 | 沒有過的是113年開始的一個 |
| 00:08:29,260 | 00:08:31,260 | 26套的一個採購案 |
| 00:08:31,260 | 00:08:33,260 | 這兩個剛剛你有做過一些說明 |
| 00:08:33,260 | 00:08:34,260 | 對對我都知道 |
| 00:08:34,260 | 00:08:37,260 | 我是說因為如果他這26套採購案沒過 |
| 00:08:37,260 | 00:08:39,260 | 那表示他當時的研發的成果 |
| 00:08:39,260 | 00:08:41,260 | 是有問題的啦 |
| 00:08:41,260 | 00:08:42,260 | 有瑕疵啦 |
| 00:08:42,260 | 00:08:44,260 | 所以你看這個就不是了嘛 |
| 00:08:44,260 | 00:08:46,260 | 沒有必然的關係 |
| 00:08:46,260 | 00:08:48,260 | 這兩個案其實研究案 |
| 00:08:48,260 | 00:08:50,260 | 跟後面這個採購案沒有過 |
| 00:08:50,260 | 00:08:52,260 | 它其實沒有必然的關係 |
| 00:08:52,260 | 00:08:54,260 | 所以這兩個研發做到的人形不一樣 |
| 00:08:56,030 | 00:08:58,030 | 我剛才就說沒有必然的關係 |
| 00:08:58,550 | 00:09:00,550 | 不是沒有必然的關係 |
| 00:09:00,550 | 00:09:02,550 | 你這樣子邏輯上會有問題啦 |
| 00:09:02,900 | 00:09:04,900 | 反正中科院長知道我在講什麼 |
| 00:09:04,900 | 00:09:07,900 | 就是說你研發型的採購這邊完了 |
| 00:09:07,900 | 00:09:09,900 | 之後如果你確認他滿足一個標準 |
| 00:09:09,900 | 00:09:11,900 | 下一個當然是做你的採購 |
| 00:09:11,900 | 00:09:12,900 | 這沒有問題 |
| 00:09:14,480 | 00:09:16,480 | 我現在是說你要去分清楚 |
| 00:09:16,480 | 00:09:18,480 | 那將來這個會比較好 |
| 00:09:18,480 | 00:09:19,480 | 我再問一下 |
| 00:09:19,480 | 00:09:21,480 | 回去也再做個報告就是說 |
| 00:09:22,140 | 00:09:24,140 | 我們剛剛列的這些東西 |
| 00:09:24,140 | 00:09:26,140 | 我希望是這樣子 |
| 00:09:26,140 | 00:09:28,140 | 因為我今天問題很多 |
| 00:09:28,140 | 00:09:30,140 | 我來不及在五分鐘內做完 |
| 00:09:30,140 | 00:09:32,140 | 但是我要遵守這個朝偉的規定 |
| 00:09:32,140 | 00:09:34,140 | 所以其他的我就書面報告 |
| 00:09:34,140 | 00:09:36,140 | 我覺得光一個採購 |
| 00:09:36,140 | 00:09:39,140 | 請各位學習一下我們科技業產業界 |
| 00:09:39,140 | 00:09:41,140 | 那整個採購的儀表板 |
| 00:09:41,140 | 00:09:43,140 | 進度分析以及可能的backup |
| 00:09:43,140 | 00:09:46,140 | 這些東西也是希望能夠確實做好 |
| 00:09:46,140 | 00:09:47,140 | 好不好 |
| 00:09:47,140 | 00:09:49,140 | 然後尤其想要在這邊要知道 |
| 00:09:49,140 | 00:09:50,140 | 你要告訴我 |
| 00:09:50,140 | 00:09:53,140 | 這裡頭歷練來採購的這些項目 |
| 00:09:53,140 | 00:09:55,140 | 哪一些是特別預算 |
| 00:09:55,140 | 00:09:56,140 | 哪些是年度預算 |
| 00:09:56,140 | 00:09:58,140 | 這個是我想要知道的 |
| 00:09:58,140 | 00:09:59,140 | 好不好 以上謝謝 |
| 00:10:00,610 | 00:10:01,610 | 謝謝 |