| IVOD_ID |
170542 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170542 |
| 日期 |
2026-07-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[2] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[2] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-07-16T13:02:00+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-07-16T13:10:08+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:08:08 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c57864e9296d4775cd02195948549cc41ac734a26d834dc42c2ededbe271e6381128cb8e9f3039315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
邱志偉 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:02:00 - 13:10:08 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-07-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查：
一、 行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。
二、 本院委員林楚茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。
三、 本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案。
四、 本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例草案」案。(僅詢答)(以上各案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查)） |
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好謝謝主席是不是請國防部顧部長然後經濟部是何市長請國防部跟經濟部部長辛苦了比照幾個版本院版跟國民黨跟民進黨版本我發現幾個問題第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
27.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
54.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
這個主管機關的歸屬跟國際上主要的國家完全是背道而馳我們看一下主要的國家包括美國、英國、法國、德國在亞洲日本、南韓、大洋洲、澳洲啊這些國家的無人機採購主管機關部長都是是不是都國防部是,我想國防的採購應該就是由國防部來主管只有台灣背道而馳 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
56.583 |
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這個很謬誤啊那為什麼其他國家走在前面都是由國防部為什麼要由國防部來主導部長原因是什麼因為國防部最符合我們的作戰需求是嘛那如果經濟部經濟部他可以了解作戰需求還有這個專業嗎然後你會不會造成研發端或者是這個採購端跟作戰端沒有辦法契合造成脫節 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
83.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
89.713 |
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所以我們會跟廠商來瞭解我們的需求、我們的規格所以從頭到尾由國安部來統籌、籌貨或者是來末端作戰的這些相關的規劃這才是正道嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
104.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
123.961 |
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何市長,如果無人機條例是由你經濟部來主管,你做得到嗎?我想無人機的作戰需求還是國防部的權責其他國家都擺在前面說就是由國防部來主導,我們為什麼一定要由經濟部來主導? |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
126.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
144.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這個動機可異然後預算變成方式 當然用特別預算它不會排擠這個年度的預算年度預算還會受到很多的障礙包括你二一拖延啊 或者是二一三減等等造成預算不穩定性這個問題有它的時間性 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
147.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
157.233 |
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因為這個作戰變化很快規格變化很快你又一拖再拖你會讓預算呈現不穩定性這個 顧委員長您同意嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
158.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
186.126 |
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我覺得最重要的一點就是說如果講說要編入年度預算根本不需要立法因為年度預算要怎麼編列就是行政院的權責行政院參照所有整體的國家的總預算再依照我們國安部提出的一個需求然後他會依照我們的財力然後來編列年度預算所以您的意思說就是化蛇添足嘛那特別預算才需要運用特別的條例所以我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
187.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
206.184 |
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訂的是特別條例那其他國民黨跟民眾黨它是條例嘛那條例裡面又放說年度預算要怎麼編其實年度預算要怎麼編就是行政院的權責啊行政院出來之後就由立法院來審如果條例裡面明訂金額會不會有違憲之虞啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
208.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
234.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
因為編列預算的權就在行政院嘛那立法委員的權就是在於根據這個預算的編列然後進行審查嘛那立法委員講說立個法說行政院應該要編多少預算那這個當這個預算案送進到國會的時候那國會到底能不能刪減它就很奇怪了嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
235.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
239.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我不是很清楚 就你法院專家 這個會不會構成違憲的要件立法院不應當有指定預算金額啊對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
251.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
267.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
就你的法律專業你就有沒有違憲之餘啊所以我想年度預算應該就不需要年度這樣怎麼編這不用條例嘛這不需要用條例在入法嘛那只有特別條例因為要運用到特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
268.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
293.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那從特別條例開始就要接受立法院的監督所以我們從特別條例提出來那因為這是採購國防部的軍備的採購那就國防部主管那國防部提出來之後會之後條例通過之後會再提出這個特別具體的特別預算就跟上一次通過的特別條例是一樣一般的條例跟特別條例是不一樣它的目的它的針對就完全不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
295.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
318.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那你就你所說的如果用年度預算現在就可以執行了嘛對不對沒有錯嘛齁對年度預算就是行政院來編喔是啊那另外這個在民進黨跟國民黨版本裡面它的採購項目啊特別條例裡面院版它很明確要採購哪些項目數量對不對但是這兩黨的這個項目啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
323.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
347.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
都很模糊啊這個會不會對戰備造成影響那個國民黨版的部分因為他在他的這個條列的15條跟16條裡面他匡列的那一些400億的這個項目他有分三個一個是我們這個軍用的這個無人載具那這個無人載具的範圍事實上是相當廣從空中到水面到水下 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
347.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
372.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
日薪月益那這些相關的預算到底要如何編列我想要如果是講年度預算那本來就是年度預算裡面要按據次的我們的需求來編列那何況他另外又夾雜二款有關什麼設施空域還有這個然後三款的產業的很模糊而且不完整沒有具體的暗項那到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
373.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
384.913 |
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那最重要就是說那這些要怎麼編經濟部會提出來編那國防部也提出來編那就是說拿到行政院那行政院就會提出一個總預算嘛那在這裡面這樣子說 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
390.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
407.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
400億這個在我看起來如果在講年度預算的話這個沒有定力條例的必要啦沒有定力那所以我們跟他們最大不同就是我們是提出特別條例然後因為特別條例一定要經過大運通過之後我們才有可能再提出特別預算也要經過大運的同意啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
407.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
435.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那年度預算本來就是行政編列權者根本不需要另外立法來訂定那就是行政編列出來之後所以不管是用常識或者用專業知識來判斷這本來就是國安部主導 而又用特別預算編列的方式來執行嘛所以我覺得很多 這個為什麼沒有辦法尋常規沒有辦法尋業用一般的知識或常識來處理這個事情那一定就是動機可異嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
437.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
466.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
就是讓整個採貨案整個無人機的特別條例沒有辦法去立法完成沒有辦法立法完成你就沒有辦法去便利特別預算去籌貨這個無人機產業對不對這個動機啊實在可疑而且不是可以 還蠻可惡的另外啊他對這個零組件跟國產化指標直接寫在條文裡面這個部長或者次長這個會造成什麼影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
467.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
486.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
其實這個渦輪機要去訂國產化的比例因為它有各種不同的型態而且它迭代的速度非常非常的快所以會造成我們未來國產化的定義很模糊而且執行上也會有鎮定上的困難好啦 因為我要遵守時間 謝謝好 我們謝謝邱志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[0].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[0].start |
2026-07-16T13:02:07.768000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[0].end |
2026-07-16T13:02:12.772000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].text |
謝謝主席，請國防部顧部長、經濟部何次長。 |
| transcript.gazette[0].quality |
0.941 |
| transcript.gazette[1].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[1].start |
2026-07-16T13:02:12.772000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[1].end |
2026-07-16T13:02:13.472000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].text |
請國防部跟經濟部。 |
| transcript.gazette[1].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[2].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[2].start |
2026-07-16T13:02:16.795000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[2].end |
2026-07-16T13:02:17.335000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].text |
部長辛苦了。 |
| transcript.gazette[2].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[3].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[3].start |
2026-07-16T13:02:17.875000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[3].end |
2026-07-16T13:02:24.420000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].text |
比照幾個版本後，院版、國民黨跟民眾黨版本，我發現幾個問題。 |
| transcript.gazette[3].quality |
0.92 |
| transcript.gazette[4].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[4].start |
2026-07-16T13:02:24.420000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[4].end |
2026-07-16T13:02:33.429000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].text |
第一個，主管機關的歸屬跟國際上主要的國家完全背道而馳。 |
| transcript.gazette[4].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[5].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[5].start |
2026-07-16T13:02:33.429000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[5].end |
2026-07-16T13:02:41.816000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].text |
我們看一下，主要的國家包括美國、英國、法國、德國，在亞洲是日本、南韓、大洋洲的澳洲。 |
| transcript.gazette[5].quality |
0.941 |
| transcript.gazette[6].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[6].start |
2026-07-16T13:02:43.237000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[6].end |
2026-07-16T13:02:48.862000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].text |
部長，這些國家的無人機採購主管機關是不是都是國防部？ |
| transcript.gazette[6].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[7].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[7].start |
2026-07-16T13:02:49.422000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[7].end |
2026-07-16T13:02:53.185000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].text |
是，我想國防的採購應該就是由國防部來主導。 |
| transcript.gazette[7].quality |
0.947 |
| transcript.gazette[8].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[8].start |
2026-07-16T13:02:53.325000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[8].end |
2026-07-16T13:03:04.770000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].text |
只有臺灣背道而馳，這個很謬誤，為什麼其他國家走在前面，都是由國防部，為什麼要由國防部來主導？ |
| transcript.gazette[8].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[9].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[9].start |
2026-07-16T13:03:04.770000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[9].end |
2026-07-16T13:03:05.771000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].text |
部長，原因是什麼？ |
| transcript.gazette[9].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[10].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[10].start |
2026-07-16T13:03:05.771000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[10].end |
2026-07-16T13:03:08.353000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].text |
因為國防部主導最符合我們的作戰需求。是嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[10].quality |
0.895 |
| transcript.gazette[11].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[11].start |
2026-07-16T13:03:08.773000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[11].end |
2026-07-16T13:03:12.657000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].text |
如果是經濟部，他可以了解作戰需求還有這個專業嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[11].quality |
0.955 |
| transcript.gazette[12].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[12].start |
2026-07-16T13:03:15.379000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[12].end |
2026-07-16T13:03:21.724000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].text |
會不會造成研發端或者是採購端跟作戰端沒有辦法契合，造成脫節？ |
| transcript.gazette[12].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[13].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[13].start |
2026-07-16T13:03:23.310000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[13].end |
2026-07-16T13:03:25.971000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].text |
對，我們為了符合作戰需求，會跟廠商了解我們的需求、規格。 |
| transcript.gazette[13].quality |
0.583 |
| transcript.gazette[14].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[14].start |
2026-07-16T13:03:25.991000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[14].end |
2026-07-16T13:03:29.693000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].text |
所以從頭到尾由國防部來統籌、籌獲或者末端作戰相關的規劃，這才是正道嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[14].quality |
0.938 |
| transcript.gazette[15].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[15].start |
2026-07-16T13:03:44.079000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[15].end |
2026-07-16T13:03:52.548000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].text |
何次長，如果國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案是由你經濟部來主管，你做得到嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[15].quality |
0.629 |
| transcript.gazette[16].speaker |
何次長晉滄 |
| transcript.gazette[16].start |
2026-07-16T13:03:52.548000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[16].end |
2026-07-16T13:03:59.276000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].text |
我想無人機的作戰需求是國防部的權責。 |
| transcript.gazette[16].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[17].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[17].start |
2026-07-16T13:03:59.276000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[17].end |
2026-07-16T13:04:03.961000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].text |
沒辦法嘛，奇怪，其他國家都擺在前面，就是由國防部主導，我們為什麼一定要由經濟部主導？ |
| transcript.gazette[17].quality |
0.838 |
| transcript.gazette[18].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[18].start |
2026-07-16T13:04:06.633000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[18].end |
2026-07-16T13:04:22.964000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].text |
這個動機可議，然後預算編列方式當然要用特別預算，它不會排擠年度的預算，年度預算會受到很多障礙，包括惡意拖延、惡意刪減等等，造成預算的不穩定性。 |
| transcript.gazette[18].quality |
0.844 |
| transcript.gazette[19].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[19].start |
2026-07-16T13:04:24.205000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[19].end |
2026-07-16T13:04:35.410000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].text |
無人機有其時間性，因為作戰變化很快，規格變化很快，如果一拖再拖，會讓預算呈現不穩定性。 |
| transcript.gazette[19].quality |
0.842 |
| transcript.gazette[20].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[20].start |
2026-07-16T13:04:36.753000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[20].end |
2026-07-16T13:04:37.233000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].text |
顧部長同意嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[20].quality |
0.833 |
| transcript.gazette[21].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[21].start |
2026-07-16T13:04:38.260000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[21].end |
2026-07-16T13:04:58.444000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].text |
我覺得最重要的一點是，如果要編入年度預算，根本不需要立法，因為年度預算要怎麼編列是行政院的權責，行政院參照所有整體的國家總預算，再依照我們國防部提出的需求，他會依照我們的財力編列年度預算。 |
| transcript.gazette[21].quality |
0.989 |
| transcript.gazette[22].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[22].start |
2026-07-16T13:04:58.824000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[22].end |
2026-07-16T13:05:00.325000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].text |
所以你的意思說就是畫蛇添足嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[22].quality |
0.857 |
| transcript.gazette[23].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[23].start |
2026-07-16T13:05:01.185000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[23].end |
2026-07-16T13:05:02.585000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].text |
特別預算才需要訂立一個特別條例…… |
| transcript.gazette[23].quality |
0.467 |
| transcript.gazette[24].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[24].start |
2026-07-16T13:05:04.025000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[24].end |
2026-07-16T13:05:04.765000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].text |
是嘛，有特別的需求…… |
| transcript.gazette[24].quality |
0.375 |
| transcript.gazette[25].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[25].start |
2026-07-16T13:05:05.986000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[25].end |
2026-07-16T13:05:22.600000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].text |
我們現在訂的是特別條例，其他國民黨跟民眾黨是條例，條例裡面又放年度預算要怎麼編，其實年度預算要怎麼編是行政院的權責，行政院編出來之後就由立法院來審。 |
| transcript.gazette[25].quality |
0.986 |
| transcript.gazette[26].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[26].start |
2026-07-16T13:05:22.600000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[26].end |
2026-07-16T13:05:25.943000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].text |
如果條文裡面明定金額，會不會有違憲之虞？ |
| transcript.gazette[26].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[27].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[27].start |
2026-07-16T13:05:30.154000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[27].end |
2026-07-16T13:05:38.316000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].text |
編列預算的權就在行政院，而立法委員的權就是根據預算編列進行審查。 |
| transcript.gazette[27].quality |
0.967 |
| transcript.gazette[28].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[28].start |
2026-07-16T13:05:39.176000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[28].end |
2026-07-16T13:05:52.079000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].text |
立法委員假設立了一個法說行政院應該要編多少預算，當這個預算案送進國會的時候，那國會到底能不能刪減？ |
| transcript.gazette[28].quality |
0.913 |
| transcript.gazette[29].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[29].start |
2026-07-16T13:05:53.140000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[29].end |
2026-07-16T13:05:54.080000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].text |
就很奇怪了，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[29].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[30].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[30].start |
2026-07-16T13:05:56.723000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[30].end |
2026-07-16T13:05:57.783000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].text |
就你的法律專業，這個會不會構成違憲的要件？ |
| transcript.gazette[30].quality |
0.842 |
| transcript.gazette[31].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[31].start |
2026-07-16T13:05:57.883000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[31].end |
2026-07-16T13:05:59.844000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].text |
立法院不應當指定預算金額，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[31].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[32].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[32].start |
2026-07-16T13:06:11.687000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[32].end |
2026-07-16T13:06:13.988000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].text |
就你的法律專業，你覺得有沒有違憲之虞？ |
| transcript.gazette[32].quality |
0.824 |
| transcript.gazette[33].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[33].start |
2026-07-16T13:06:15.408000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[33].end |
2026-07-16T13:06:47.622000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].text |
所以我想年度預算要怎麼編，應該不需要用條例再入法，只有特別條例因為要應用到特別預算，特別條例從開始就要接受立法院監督，所以我們從特別條例提出來，因為這是國防部軍備的採購，那就由國防部主管，國防部提出來，條例通過之後，會再提出特別具體的特別預算，跟上一次通過的特別條例是一樣的。 |
| transcript.gazette[33].quality |
0.945 |
| transcript.gazette[34].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[34].start |
2026-07-16T13:06:47.622000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[34].end |
2026-07-16T13:07:02.196000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].text |
一般的條例跟特別條例是不一樣的，它的目的、針對性完全不一樣，就你所說的，如果用年度預算，現在就可以執行了，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[34].quality |
0.96 |
| transcript.gazette[35].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[35].start |
2026-07-16T13:07:02.196000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[35].end |
2026-07-16T13:07:02.517000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].text |
沒有錯嘛？ |
| transcript.gazette[35].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[36].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[36].start |
2026-07-16T13:07:03.077000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[36].end |
2026-07-16T13:07:04.938000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].text |
對，年度預算就是由行政院編。是啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[36].quality |
0.929 |
| transcript.gazette[37].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[37].start |
2026-07-16T13:07:05.699000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[37].end |
2026-07-16T13:07:18.047000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].text |
另外，在民眾黨跟國民黨的版本裡面，關於採購項目，在特別條例裡面，院版很明確要採購哪些項目、數量，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[37].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[38].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[38].start |
2026-07-16T13:07:18.047000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[38].end |
2026-07-16T13:07:25.885000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].text |
但是這兩黨的項目都很模糊，這個會不會對戰備造成影響？ |
| transcript.gazette[38].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[39].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[39].start |
2026-07-16T13:07:27.246000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[39].end |
2026-07-16T13:07:48.384000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].text |
國民黨版的部分，因為在這個條例的第十五條跟第十六條裡面，它匡列的那一些400億的項目有分三個，一個是軍用的無人載具，而無人載具的範圍事實上相當廣，從空中到水面到水下，日新月異…… |
| transcript.gazette[39].quality |
0.859 |
| transcript.gazette[40].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[40].start |
2026-07-16T13:07:48.384000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[40].end |
2026-07-16T13:07:50.005000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].text |
對啊，不像院版的…… |
| transcript.gazette[40].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[41].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[41].start |
2026-07-16T13:07:50.005000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[41].end |
2026-07-16T13:07:52.846000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].text |
這些相關的預算到底要如何編列？ |
| transcript.gazette[41].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[42].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[42].start |
2026-07-16T13:07:54.607000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[42].end |
2026-07-16T13:08:06.612000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].text |
如果是講年度預算，那本來就是年度預算裡面要具體的，按我們的需求編列，何況他另外又夾雜二款有關什麼測試空域還有三款產業的…… |
| transcript.gazette[42].quality |
0.911 |
| transcript.gazette[43].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[43].start |
2026-07-16T13:08:07.593000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[43].end |
2026-07-16T13:08:09.073000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].text |
很抽象、很模糊而且不完整。 |
| transcript.gazette[43].quality |
0.727 |
| transcript.gazette[44].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[44].start |
2026-07-16T13:08:09.393000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[44].end |
2026-07-16T13:08:17.361000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].text |
沒有具體的案項，最重要的是那這些要怎麼編？ |
| transcript.gazette[44].quality |
0.895 |
| transcript.gazette[45].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[45].start |
2026-07-16T13:08:17.361000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[45].end |
2026-07-16T13:08:19.324000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].text |
經濟部會提出來編。 |
| transcript.gazette[45].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[46].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[46].start |
2026-07-16T13:08:19.324000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[46].end |
2026-07-16T13:08:20.324000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].text |
編不出來嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[46].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[47].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[47].start |
2026-07-16T13:08:19.584000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[47].end |
2026-07-16T13:08:30.486000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].text |
國防部也會提出來編，最後拿到行政院，行政院就會提出一個總預算，在這裡面這樣匡列400億。 |
| transcript.gazette[47].quality |
0.865 |
| transcript.gazette[48].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[48].start |
2026-07-16T13:08:30.486000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[48].end |
2026-07-16T13:08:35.131000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].text |
這個在我看起來，如果在講年度預算的話，沒有訂立條例的必要。 |
| transcript.gazette[48].quality |
0.923 |
| transcript.gazette[49].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[49].start |
2026-07-16T13:08:36.952000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[49].end |
2026-07-16T13:08:47.223000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].text |
所以我們跟他們最大的不同，就是我們是提出特別條例，因為特別條例一定要經過大院通過之後，我們才有可能再提出特別預算，也要經過大院的同意。是啊。 |
| transcript.gazette[49].quality |
0.938 |
| transcript.gazette[50].speaker |
顧部長立雄 |
| transcript.gazette[50].start |
2026-07-16T13:08:48.224000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[50].end |
2026-07-16T13:08:54.890000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].text |
年度預算本來就是行政院的編列權責，根本不需要另外立法訂定，就是行政院編列出來之後…… |
| transcript.gazette[50].quality |
0.895 |
| transcript.gazette[51].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[51].start |
2026-07-16T13:08:55.110000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[51].end |
2026-07-16T13:09:02.376000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].text |
不管是用常識或者用專業知識判斷，這本來就是國防部主導，而且用特別預算編列的方式執行。 |
| transcript.gazette[51].quality |
0.949 |
| transcript.gazette[52].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[52].start |
2026-07-16T13:09:07.560000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[52].end |
2026-07-16T13:09:13.665000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].text |
為什麼沒有辦法循常規、沒有辦法用一般的知識或常識處理這個事情？ |
| transcript.gazette[52].quality |
0.966 |
| transcript.gazette[53].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[53].start |
2026-07-16T13:09:14.626000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[53].end |
2026-07-16T13:09:30.916000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].text |
那一定就是動機可議嘛，就是讓整個採購案、整個無人機的特別條例沒有辦法立法完成，沒辦法立法完成，你就沒辦法去編列特別預算去籌獲無人機產業，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[53].quality |
0.924 |
| transcript.gazette[54].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[54].start |
2026-07-16T13:09:30.916000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[54].end |
2026-07-16T13:09:34.997000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].text |
這個動機實在可議，還滿可惡的！ |
| transcript.gazette[54].quality |
0.846 |
| transcript.gazette[55].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[55].start |
2026-07-16T13:09:36.018000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[55].end |
2026-07-16T13:09:46.041000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].text |
另外，他把零組件跟國產化指標直接寫在條文裡面，部長或者次長，這個會造成什麼影響？ |
| transcript.gazette[55].quality |
0.972 |
| transcript.gazette[56].speaker |
何次長晉滄 |
| transcript.gazette[56].start |
2026-07-16T13:09:48.684000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[56].end |
2026-07-16T13:10:04.658000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].text |
無人機要去訂國產化的比例，因為它有各種不同的型態，而且它迭代的速度非常非常的快，所以會造成我們未來國產化的定義很模糊，而且執行上也會有政令上的困難。 |
| transcript.gazette[56].quality |
0.942 |
| transcript.gazette[57].speaker |
邱委員志偉 |
| transcript.gazette[57].start |
2026-07-16T13:10:04.658000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[57].end |
2026-07-16T13:10:05.859000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].text |
好，因為我要遵守時間，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[57].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[58].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[58].start |
2026-07-16T13:10:06.179000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[58].end |
2026-07-16T13:10:06.460000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].text |
謝謝邱志偉委員。 |
| transcript.gazette[58].quality |
0.714 |
| transcript.gazette[59].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[59].start |
2026-07-16T13:10:06.960000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[59].end |
2026-07-16T13:10:10.102857+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].text |
接下來請李彥秀委員質詢。 |
| transcript.gazette[59].quality |
0 |
| gazette.lineno |
970 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
邱委員志偉：（13時2分）謝謝主席，請國防部顧部長、經濟部何次長。 |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：請國防部跟經濟部。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
邱委員志偉：部長辛苦了。比照幾個版本後，院版、國民黨跟民眾黨版本，我發現幾個問題。第一個，主管機關的歸屬跟國際上主要的國家完全背道而馳。我們看一下，主要的國家包括美國、英國、法國、德國，在亞洲是日本、南韓、大洋洲的澳洲。部長，這些國家的無人機採購主管機關是不是都是國防部？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
顧部長立雄：是，我想國防的採購應該就是由國防部來主導。 |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
邱委員志偉：只有臺灣背道而馳，這個很謬誤，為什麼其他國家走在前面，都是由國防部，為什麼要由國防部來主導？部長，原因是什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
顧部長立雄：因為國防部主導最符合我們的作戰需求。 |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
邱委員志偉：是嘛！如果是經濟部，他可以了解作戰需求還有這個專業嗎？會不會造成研發端或者是採購端跟作戰端沒有辦法契合，造成脫節？ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
顧部長立雄：對，我們為了符合作戰需求，會跟廠商了解我們的需求、規格。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
邱委員志偉：所以從頭到尾由國防部來統籌、籌獲或者末端作戰相關的規劃，這才是正道嘛！何次長，如果國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案是由你經濟部來主管，你做得到嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
何次長晉滄：我想無人機的作戰需求是國防部的權責。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
邱委員志偉：沒辦法嘛，奇怪，其他國家都擺在前面，就是由國防部主導，我們為什麼一定要由經濟部主導？這個動機可議，然後預算編列方式當然要用特別預算，它不會排擠年度的預算，年度預算會受到很多障礙，包括惡意拖延、惡意刪減等等，造成預算的不穩定性。無人機有其時間性，因為作戰變化很快，規格變化很快，如果一拖再拖，會讓預算呈現不穩定性。顧部長同意嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
顧部長立雄：我覺得最重要的一點是，如果要編入年度預算，根本不需要立法，因為年度預算要怎麼編列是行政院的權責，行政院參照所有整體的國家總預算，再依照我們國防部提出的需求，他會依照我們的財力編列年度預算。 |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
邱委員志偉：所以你的意思說就是畫蛇添足嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
顧部長立雄：特別預算才需要訂立一個特別條例…… |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
邱委員志偉：是嘛，有特別的需求…… |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
顧部長立雄：我們現在訂的是特別條例，其他國民黨跟民眾黨是條例，條例裡面又放年度預算要怎麼編，其實年度預算要怎麼編是行政院的權責，行政院編出來之後就由立法院來審。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
邱委員志偉：如果條文裡面明定金額，會不會有違憲之虞？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
顧部長立雄：編列預算的權就在行政院，而立法委員的權就是根據預算編列進行審查。立法委員假設立了一個法說行政院應該要編多少預算，當這個預算案送進國會的時候，那國會到底能不能刪減？ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
邱委員志偉：就很奇怪了，對不對？就你的法律專業，這個會不會構成違憲的要件？立法院不應當指定預算金額，對不對？就你的法律專業，你覺得有沒有違憲之虞？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
顧部長立雄：所以我想年度預算要怎麼編，應該不需要用條例再入法，只有特別條例因為要應用到特別預算，特別條例從開始就要接受立法院監督，所以我們從特別條例提出來，因為這是國防部軍備的採購，那就由國防部主管，國防部提出來，條例通過之後，會再提出特別具體的特別預算，跟上一次通過的特別條例是一樣的。 |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
邱委員志偉：一般的條例跟特別條例是不一樣的，它的目的、針對性完全不一樣，就你所說的，如果用年度預算，現在就可以執行了，對不對？沒有錯嘛？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
顧部長立雄：對，年度預算就是由行政院編。 |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
邱委員志偉：是啊！另外，在民眾黨跟國民黨的版本裡面，關於採購項目，在特別條例裡面，院版很明確要採購哪些項目、數量，對不對？但是這兩黨的項目都很模糊，這個會不會對戰備造成影響？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
顧部長立雄：國民黨版的部分，因為在這個條例的第十五條跟第十六條裡面，它匡列的那一些400億的項目有分三個，一個是軍用的無人載具，而無人載具的範圍事實上相當廣，從空中到水面到水下，日新月異…… |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
邱委員志偉：對啊，不像院版的…… |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
顧部長立雄：這些相關的預算到底要如何編列？如果是講年度預算，那本來就是年度預算裡面要具體的，按我們的需求編列，何況他另外又夾雜二款有關什麼測試空域還有三款產業的…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
邱委員志偉：很抽象、很模糊而且不完整。 |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
顧部長立雄：沒有具體的案項，最重要的是那這些要怎麼編？經濟部會提出來編。 |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
邱委員志偉：編不出來嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
顧部長立雄：國防部也會提出來編，最後拿到行政院，行政院就會提出一個總預算，在這裡面這樣匡列400億。這個在我看起來，如果在講年度預算的話，沒有訂立條例的必要。所以我們跟他們最大的不同，就是我們是提出特別條例，因為特別條例一定要經過大院通過之後，我們才有可能再提出特別預算，也要經過大院的同意。 |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
邱委員志偉：是啊。 |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
顧部長立雄：年度預算本來就是行政院的編列權責，根本不需要另外立法訂定，就是行政院編列出來之後…… |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
邱委員志偉：不管是用常識或者用專業知識判斷，這本來就是國防部主導，而且用特別預算編列的方式執行。為什麼沒有辦法循常規、沒有辦法用一般的知識或常識處理這個事情？那一定就是動機可議嘛，就是讓整個採購案、整個無人機的特別條例沒有辦法立法完成，沒辦法立法完成，你就沒辦法去編列特別預算去籌獲無人機產業，對不對？這個動機實在可議，還滿可惡的！另外，他把零組件跟國產化指標直接寫在條文裡面，部長或者次長，這個會造成什麼影響？ |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
何次長晉滄：無人機要去訂國產化的比例，因為它有各種不同的型態，而且它迭代的速度非常非常的快，所以會造成我們未來國產化的定義很模糊，而且執行上也會有政令上的困難。 |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
邱委員志偉：好，因為我要遵守時間，謝謝。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
主席：謝謝邱志偉委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[35][1] |
接下來請李彥秀委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
104 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
洪毓祥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
林楚茵 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
林沛祥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
王安祥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
賴士葆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
林岱樺 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
王義川 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
劉書彬 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
王定宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
陳俊宇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[18] |
沈伯洋 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[19] |
郭國文 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[20] |
陳永康 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[21] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[22] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[23] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[24] |
李彥秀 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[25] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[26] |
馬文君 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[27] |
牛煦庭 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[28] |
黃建賓 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[29] |
李坤城 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[30] |
陳冠廷 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[31] |
羅明才 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[32] |
郭昱晴 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[33] |
吳沛憶 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[34] |
羅美玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[35] |
林德福 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[36] |
林思銘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[37] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[38] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[39] |
蘇清泉 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
1 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2026-07-16 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1156401 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1156401_00002 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚
茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化
國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發
展及採購條例草案」案（詢答） |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1156401_00001 |