| IVOD_ID |
170529 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170529 |
| 日期 |
2026-07-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
聯席會議 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[1] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[2] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[1] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[2] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-07-16T11:54:18+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-07-16T12:06:04+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:46 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c57864e9296d477520ac7738a4c5c69a1ac734a26d834dc46e900f186971803a54ed8f2ce0dbea445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鍾佳濱 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:54:18 - 12:06:04 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-07-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查：
一、 行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。
二、 本院委員林楚茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。
三、 本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案。
四、 本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例草案」案。(僅詢答)(以上各案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查)） |
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請鍾嘉賓委員咨詢 |
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25.163 |
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主席、在黨委員先進列席的政府相當的官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生有請國防部部長、經濟部核次長以及速發部的陳祖密和民航局的何局長同時也請我們中科院的李院長協助部長好,我們請經濟部、國防部、中科院速發 |
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57.987 |
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83.425 |
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還有秋風是 曾維也好部長 次長 院長還有主秘及局長今天要談烏克蘭無人載具快速創新供應以及採購機制場域法規解禁要如何助研發我們都知道周偉還有下次的排案我本人的版本要到下一次詢答的時候才有機會做提案說明因此我以下先就我的版本的一些關注角色來先請教一下各位 |
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84.605 |
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部長您剛才提到的就是無人載具的角色我想這個不是只談產業要先能保衛國家才有產業發展才有全球的和國際合作的市場是不是這樣子所以我想一定要符合我們的作戰需求是的那麼你認為在俄烏戰爭當中烏克蘭能夠扭轉劣勢這個無人載具是關鍵嘛 |
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136.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
是 好 但是我們都知道在戰爭初期使用伊朗的見證者136改成天竺魁原型來攻擊烏克蘭的是俄羅斯但是為什麼到現在發展後來烏克蘭可以透過無人載具去扭轉整個戰局甚至他可以轟炸敵後的俄羅斯的煉油廠曾經司機開個說不拿領土換停火他有這麼大的底氣甚至傳出 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
139.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
144.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
德國還能夠砸9000萬的歐元他一次買5萬架的無人機這說明什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
145.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
173.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
一定要先烏克蘭是在對抗軍事威脅求生存之後再採取不對稱戰力降低傷亡才能夠扭轉他人力規模的劣勢這是我們台灣可以學習的經驗所以底下我用我跟烏克蘭的交流經驗來跟大家分享現在圖片兩個是來自烏克蘭朝野不同政黨的國會議員這位帥氣的男生大男孩他不到30歲他是現任現役軍人他不開會的時候就回到了前線他送給我他們烏克蘭的備章 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
175.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
193.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那但是呢另外這兩位在野黨的女士國會議員呢他們送我什麼不一樣他們拿槍流彈的彈殼做成的蠟燭啊送給我他表明說烏克蘭是在這樣的四年漫長的戰爭當中找到自己的生存之道而且呢還能夠持續的源源不斷的來支援前線全民來對抗 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
195.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
215.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
所以這是需要朝野共同合作在這裡也跟在場的召委主席和我們不同政黨的國會議員呼籲我們往下看那到底烏克蘭給我們什麼經驗呢首先傳統的軍武它因為是少數在生產其中規模龐大需要上萬個零件你看海昆號你看F16戰機而且技術基本上是壟斷的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
216.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
242.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所以先是有優勢的裝備 像我們過去的廣場採購才能籌編預算去對半去 大部分是對外採購但是烏克蘭這邊看到的是什麼是因為戰爭的需求 他們預算投入 產生大量的無人機後續的援助的資金挹注 以周圍單位去更新這才能符合實戰的需求我們來看看這樣的一個不對稱作戰同碩軍備採購的順序的思維也就是說剛剛部長所說的 要先有訂單 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
243.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
264.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
後面才有研發跟生產好 那我們來看一下大概是怎樣第一 我們希望未來參考烏克蘭經驗 購用合一要購買的跟使用的要一致我們看到的他們烏克蘭經驗是什麼他們的採購全部是集中的他們把部門的預算下放給基層的部隊指揮官由他們根據需求向民間採購所以非常的靈活 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
265.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
287.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
而且呢他們好不好用馬上就知道所以才能促進烏克蘭的多元供應而且呢迭代更新第一個問題國防部要去思考在非暫時的情況之下我們如何突破現有的採購法的限制做到不再由中科院認定供應商而能夠讓實際的基層使用者他獲得他們所需要的裝備這是第一個第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
289.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
303.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
烏克蘭市全民接兵,這個兵不是上戰場全民在鑄造兵器、造飛機啊烏克蘭市有什麼情況?烏克蘭因為迭代更新很快有賴於他們的去中心化他們怕大工廠被轟炸轉型到公寓裡面的家庭工廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
304.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
319.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
他們的前線需求是直接後方也不遠直接工程師去溝通了解戰士的需求因此他是多元供應只有多元供應才能夠滿足未來無人載具在不正常作戰之下他的多元的需求這是第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
320.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
343.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
第三個他們有教訓是什麼?場域空間、射頻元件、頻譜這些在烏克蘭作戰的時候,有一個NCC會去管制這些研發者的射頻訊號嗎?有一個民航局會去管制他們研發的時候,你不能到處亂飛嗎?沒有但是畢竟台灣不是啊,台灣現在不是在打仗啊我前不久才去參觀了一個反制無人機系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
344.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
358.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
他們呢是用三套設備他們第一個他們用被動偵測能夠偵測到7公里外的射頻訊號不只可以抓到無人機還可以抓到飛手但是再下來呢他就開始要做敵我識別之後他有一個龐大的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
359.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
380.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
平埔的一個資料庫可以判斷這個無人機什麼樣子然後他在發動電子干擾用軟殺的方式讓他失去效能那如果遇到那種所謂影像自主導航的光學自主導航的沒有色頻訊號的他仍然有主動雷達毫米波雷達去偵測到讓他結合軍方的擊殺鏈透過物理的方式把他擊落 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
381.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
396.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
好了 他現在告訴我一個問題啦他們自己公司在研發的過程當中呢他要有紅隊的無人機來當作把擊他自己是藍隊 他用反制設備去捕捉請問他要在哪個地方做民安局 哪個空域可以讓這樣的公司去實作 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
397.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
424.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
NCC它所使用的這些評估跟色評元件有沒有經過你的核可最後呢還是民航局它的靶機根本不是市面上的它是研發的它要做對抗有經過你們的四航性測驗嗎所以不管是場域的開放測試還是設備評估的開放都需要法規去整合部長很簡單的說您說現在行政院有辦法做到這一點我很懷疑後面你排別那幾位不管是民航局也好速發部也好NC也好這些法令都還在啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
425.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
447.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
你在沒有一個法令的授權之下如何透過行政協調去解凍很簡單的方式來 部長請回答我想委員指教的很好那現在在台灣能夠找到這樣的一個場域空間然後一個比較乾淨的一個平樸的環境然後來做一個驗證這件事情確實是不容易但是行政院正在努力的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
448.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
468.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
結合各部會來進行協調那我想也已經有一些相關的進度那這些有一些涉及到法規是不是要進一步鬆綁的問題還要在無人機的部分還要考慮到飛航安全的部分然後跟這個無人機的測試的這個部分結合所以有一些關於測試場域的一個尋獲然後這個測試場域 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
471.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
488.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
要如何快速的來進行申請 簡化他的申請的程序等等我想這些都在做靠部委的協調那如果委員要知道詳情的話 可能私下有這個中央院院長嗎 還是民進黨局局長 還是香港局局長來 部長 講結論在院裡面的層級裡面去處理的那個 部長 其實齁 這些業者我們都有在交流啦當然是無人艇 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
497.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
510.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
他就要到左營軍區透過軍方的協助因為如果說還要載上一個爆破的炸藥那更不用講民間根本不能取得嘛所以他的測試有很大的限制那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
511.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
536.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
民航局的部分空域 航港局的部分海域單單一個無人艇要試航 要先載出去 不是開出去啊所以我覺得這個都限制到我們在無人載具發展過程當中的速度所以最後的結論這個我為什麼請部長 次長 院長 還有主秘跟局長一起來聽就是我們從烏克蘭經驗可以參酌 但烏克蘭跟我們不一樣我們多一個台灣海峽 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
537.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
552.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
其實烏克蘭初期的陸戰FPV取代了裝甲載具這個戰場 初期不會出現但是我們擔心的是恐攻第五縱隊在海峽封鎖之前 他們就要我們搞社會破壞對我們的關鍵基礎設施進行無人機的恐攻 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
553.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
570.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這些都是未來包括國防部跟行政院整個部會我要去思考的所以我的主張想結論儘速通過正願版的採購金額跟品項確保國防部可以建構無人載具的戰力但是也希望未來國防部跟各部會要採購的機制要多元彈性要能夠授權給實際操作的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
571.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
591.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
部隊去決定它採購的需求這是烏克蘭的戰場經驗所換來的一個血淋淋的教訓最後我們去中心化分散性的思考要增強無人機載具的供應鏈的韌性要給它場域給它頻譜給它原件的開放它才能夠研發跟測驗我們未來不希望有一個中科院主導了所有的無人載具的研發烏克蘭沒有這樣的機構 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
594.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
617.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
烏克蘭是全民皆兵全部的中小企業都投入這樣的研發創造生產他們的工程師日新月異兩週一週就迭代那我不認為這樣的一個情況在現有的國防部中科院的體制下能夠完成希望未來部長能夠回去我們支持行政院但是也希望未來在相關的制度上能夠參著借鏡烏克蘭人的經驗我們做一些符合台灣的必要調整部長可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
620.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
639.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以我們會在這個採購計畫裡面這會有一個回饋的機制然後來創造 當然我們沒有辦法像烏克蘭一樣 我們會有演訓 然後我們會有這個收集國際的商情 那我們會有各單位的意見的回饋 那我們會在這個平台上面來 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
639.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
648.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
進一步要求廠商能夠做一個快速的迭代更新這樣子謝謝部長 因為主席站起來最後請民防局局長要取得你親口的承諾民防局局長請 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
650.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
678.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因為當年在2017年我們民航空法的無人機專章是您主導去著手炒你的那時候本席也是在交通委員會那是遙控無人機那是空拍機是農噴機是250公克以上25公斤以下現在我們的無人載具已經在對岸可以有舉起四軸八旋翼可以舉起100公斤的無人載具國內有研發可以得到市場的許可嗎現在的法令很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
679.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
705.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以民用航空法我會再找時間跟你好好的討論要趕快突破這些限制我們台灣非常有活力跟創造力的研發能量才不會被我們的法規束縛所窒息可以答應嗎這個報告委員這個沒問題這個我們再跟委員報告好 那我在這裡也謝謝我們召委希望下次排行的時候本席的版本有機會來做提案說明也能夠就教於我們各界 謝謝好 謝謝鍾教授 |