| IVOD_ID |
170230 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170230 |
| 日期 |
2026-07-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-19-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
19 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-07-01T11:24:32+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-07-01T11:37:19+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:47 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/10566d69eaf1b9ac3b6480a975ec3e98d7789928a886f01810bb06545781b11bf0c54870947c465d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王鴻薇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:24:32 - 11:37:19 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-07-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及法務部首長就「經濟部、國家發展委員會補助案審查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」進行報告，並備質詢。
【7月1日及7月2日二天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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好謝謝主席那今天是我們國發基金主委他是因為那個腳傷腳傷所以就在位置上好就是答詢好沒問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
29.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
47.699 |
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今天謝謝昭緯安排的專案報告這個專案報告的緣起主要是因為外界在質疑我們的國發基金在蘇貞昌擔任行政院長的任內國發基金補助 補好 補滿也就是蘇貞昌 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
51.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
67.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
院長的女兒蘇巧淳可以在國發基金拿到相關的補助可是我看到我們今天國發基金的報告我們去除這個封面去除封面整個的A4紙就這樣的一張別對外界這麼多的疑慮有沒有利益迴避的問題有沒有公費透明的問題補助的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
81.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
82.671 |
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最後就這樣子AFO紙一張如果去除到跟我們這個委員跟委員會問好還有講國發會的宗旨三分之一的篇幅不見了 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
97.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
101.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
所以真的很有誠意來做報告嗎真的很有誠意來落實所謂的公開公平嗎剛才經營部長也說我們政府單位補助就要公開公平可是有公開嗎好我現在給大家看我們在整個的補助裡面國防會有很多補助其中我們要促轉 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
128.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
134.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們的促轉基金會結束之後有所謂的促轉正義基金移到國發會來做執行補助然後因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
141.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
168.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們現在有這個所謂的促轉基金有還原歷史真相的旗艦計畫計畫期程一年到兩年甚至最多最多補助可以到一千萬元之多既然是促進轉型正義那公開公平就是正義吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
169.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
175.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
只要我們具有資料國防會拒絕提供補助名單申請名單說基於個資不提供補助名單也不提供而且說一定要等到核定公佈之後所以意思就是錢都給好給滿之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
193.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
217.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
不往路上去公開才能夠看到這個名單但是奇怪了國寶基金在通過相關補助為什麼這個名單不能提供呢?這樣有公平嗎?這樣有透明嗎?申請的單位不知道通過的單位不知道給了錢 給完錢之後才知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
221.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
246.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這個過程真的很起人疑鬥既不公開也有失公平好為什麼我們這個助展基金既然是正義根本沒有維持基本的正義呢好我們來看他到今年五月份所在網路上我剛講這個都是錢都給囉錢都已經給囉這個名單裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
252.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
260.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
不看不知道一看就恍然大悟我們再看促進轉型正義基金裡面這些的補助對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
267.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
285.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
真的好熟悉呀真的好熟悉因為我相信我們很多委員呢都經歷過大罷免怎麼樣被這些大罷免團體在網路上在各式的活動上在街頭上怎麼樣的在發起大罷免的活動而這裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
287.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
297.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們的國發會裡面所謂轉型正義基金裡面的補助單位譬如說包含這個顧寬敏基金會當時就是非常主要的發動大罷免的團體之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
305.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
333.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
另外台灣左轉文化協會這個跟我們現在的副院長鄭麗君女士也有非常深的淵源然後裡面還有台北市蔡月月文化基金會這個名為文化基金會但是當時大罷免的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
334.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
337.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
在他的臉書上堅持投入大罷免我也不懂啦 就是搞文化的也要來堅持投入大罷免好 所以我要講的如果在促轉正義基金裡面 你在補助的對象有這麼多涉入選舉 涉入政治 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
357.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
375.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那你就要公開透明啊剛才許中信委員就講他在業界他在學界也常常聽說跟我們的執政者跟我們的執政黨有淵源的就很容易拿到相關補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
377.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
397.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
果不其然 我剛才給大家看到的是第一階段的補助計劃金額但是接下來的 就通通不提供那如果我們今天有關於補助你政府拿的是納稅人錢 你知道要不然我不管你你今天拿民進黨黨產 我也管不到可是你拿的不都是納稅人的錢嗎都是從公戶拿錢啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
406.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
429.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
為什麼要用黑箱作業呢為什麼可以不提供補助名單呢我們現在各單位有樣學樣在之前文化部也是之前文化部因為一個臨日作戰臨日戰爭的補助案被曝光之後現在文化部也不給啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
430.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
435.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
都用一個所謂的涉及商業機密你要搞商業你就不要來跟政府補助嘛如果你要商業機密你就不要來跟政府申請補助啊怎麼可以一手拿政府的錢一手說我有商業機密所以不能公開呢那我們立法院還要監督嗎好 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
452.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
461.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
來 主委我知道你今天那個腳受傷請你回應一下這個補助名單為什麼不可以提供那你們到底要遮掩什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
462.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
482.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
第一個跟委員報告剛剛委員有提到的那個多元政見第一階段就是現在這個簡報上面的這個這個其實已經有公告在那個促進轉型正義基金公司我剛才有講啊我怎麼拿到名單呢那接下來的呢接下來委員提到那個旗艦計畫那個應該還沒審完 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
484.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
492.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以等到審完之後他還是會公告出來你告訴我的是通過名單已經有通過的已經有通過的不提供然後你要等到最後要到就是一定要等公告他現在還在審查的過程當中我現在就公告的話不就是代表我在操弄嗎所以就讓他整個審查完成之後就去公告他 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
510.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
527.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
好所以你現在可以承諾我等到你們因為你現在提供給我的公文是說要等到要等到那個什麼要等到公告整個的就是你們要上網路公告之後才會才會有這個名單大家才看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
529.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
551.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
因為現在還在審查的過程當中所以審查本來基於的就是一個審查的一個公正性那不希望說有一些其他的一個干擾去影響到他的整個審查的一個公平性所以這個部分就可能要麻煩委員就是說是不是等一下等他審查完了那確定之後他就會公告跟多元政見的狀況會是一樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
553.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
572.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好 這就是 你現在不要給我什麼 等到你們通過之後就應該要提供通過之後就要提供 除非你們要騙人家嗎不會啦 不會啦你們根本不知道是什麼意思 就是已經給錢啦已經給錢 我直接告訴大家你們預定的時間是12月底 這是選舉完之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
575.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
582.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你們告訴我就是大概你們預定的就是12月啊12月選舉都選完了錢也都給了然後我們知道又怎樣呢我們沒有那種預定事情我剛剛有講到裡面有這麼多大罷免名單有大罷免就會輔選啊不是嗎委員他那個每一個申請單位跟其他其他一些他有什麼樣的活動連結其實都不是我們審查的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
601.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
606.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那今天剛好或許或許剛剛好 每次都講剛好 怎麼剛好啊別的團體為什麼沒有辦法剛好呢可是假如按照委員的說法的話應該所有的名單都是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
615.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
638.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以你的意思就是要所有的名單喔?你要所有的名單喔?所以你覺得還不夠喔?老實說我今天挑出來的,除非你要這樣講我現在挑出來的都是當時非常積極活躍的有的是在潛在海裡面的或者是其實他就是跟執政黨跟執政者的這些政治人物交好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
640.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
654.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
還是直接跳出來再做大罷免對不對所以你覺得還不夠我們不會有任何偏頗還是依照專業在審查這件事情也請委員就是說相信這些外部的委員專家因為我們也不想去干擾他 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
655.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
678.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我們都在消息你們外部委員就已經開始了嘛你們外部委員就找的就是這些這些團體的代表或者是這些親這些團體的代表我們政府單位長期以來這種各式各樣的補助就如同蘇小純你也說這是外部委員嘛尊重外部委員嘛那外部委員怎麼千挑萬挑的就可以挑到蘇貞昌的女兒呢對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
682.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
696.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個你可以以招公信嗎跟委員報告我們那個國發基金在審查投資案的時候所有的委員都是用抽籤的我們沒有事前沒有辦法預估是誰我們有一個破但是我們那個抽籤是隨機抽籤的所以誰會上台你這種話你這種話不用去講講給三歲小孩沒有沒有我要講就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
704.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
706.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
怎麼這麼恰恰巧我告訴你這時候我還會繼續公布你們國發會相關補助真的都要跟執政黨的政治人物執政黨的這些民意代表特別特別好 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
720.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
733.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
就很容易補助 補好補滿別人來申請非常的困難啊然後現在我們今天開了一個專案報告你給了一個A4正反兩面什麼意思就是不想交代嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
735.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
758.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這些補助案難道你們不應該很清楚的來跟立法院來做交代嗎我在這邊就不耽誤下面的委員的時間但是我請博發會不要假所謂的轉型正義之名去補助給特定的政治團體之實也不要假所謂的發展產業之名去補助給這些特定的特權的企業之實 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
765.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
766.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好,謝謝王宏偉議員 |
| transcript.gazette[0].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[0].start |
2026-07-01T11:24:44.553000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[0].end |
2026-07-01T11:24:44.794000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].text |
謝謝主席。 |
| transcript.gazette[0].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[1].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[1].start |
2026-07-01T11:24:46.334000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[1].end |
2026-07-01T11:24:51.956000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].text |
今天國發會主委是因為……腳傷。 |
| transcript.gazette[1].quality |
0.917 |
| transcript.gazette[2].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[2].start |
2026-07-01T11:24:51.956000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[2].end |
2026-07-01T11:24:56.518000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].text |
所以就在位子上答詢？ |
| transcript.gazette[2].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[3].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[3].start |
2026-07-01T11:24:56.518000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[3].end |
2026-07-01T11:24:56.778000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].text |
好，沒問題。 |
| transcript.gazette[3].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[4].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[4].start |
2026-07-01T11:25:01.444000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[4].end |
2026-07-01T11:25:29.886000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].text |
今天謝謝召委安排專案報告，這個專案報告的緣起，主要是因為外界質疑國發基金在蘇貞昌擔任行政院長的任內，國發基金的補助補好、補滿，也就是蘇貞昌院長的女兒蘇巧純可以在國發基金拿到相關的補助。 |
| transcript.gazette[4].quality |
0.953 |
| transcript.gazette[5].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[5].start |
2026-07-01T11:25:30.826000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[5].end |
2026-07-01T11:25:36.669000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].text |
可是我看到今天國發會的報告，去除封面整個A4紙就這樣一張。 |
| transcript.gazette[5].quality |
0.962 |
| transcript.gazette[6].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[6].start |
2026-07-01T11:25:36.829000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[6].end |
2026-07-01T11:25:39.110000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].text |
面對外界這麼多的疑慮，有沒有利益迴避的問題、有沒有公開透明的問題、補助的程序？ |
| transcript.gazette[6].quality |
0.943 |
| transcript.gazette[7].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[7].start |
2026-07-01T11:25:53.730000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[7].end |
2026-07-01T11:25:53.930000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].text |
結果就這樣子，A4紙一張！ |
| transcript.gazette[7].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[8].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[8].start |
2026-07-01T11:25:53.930000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[8].end |
2026-07-01T11:26:10.544000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].text |
如果去除跟委員及委員會問好，還有講國發會的宗旨，三分之一的篇幅不見了，真的很有誠意來做報告嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[8].quality |
0.977 |
| transcript.gazette[9].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[9].start |
2026-07-01T11:26:10.544000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[9].end |
2026-07-01T11:26:11.144000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].text |
真的很有誠意來落實所謂的公開、公平嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[9].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[10].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[10].start |
2026-07-01T11:26:11.144000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[10].end |
2026-07-01T11:26:12.285000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].text |
剛才經濟部長也說政府單位補助就要公開、公平，可是有公開嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[10].quality |
0.962 |
| transcript.gazette[11].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[11].start |
2026-07-01T11:26:12.325000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[11].end |
2026-07-01T11:26:45.808000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].text |
我現在給大家看，在整個補助裡面，國發會有很多補助，其中促轉基金會結束之後，有所謂的促轉正義基金移到國發會來做執行補助。 |
| transcript.gazette[11].quality |
0.981 |
| transcript.gazette[12].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[12].start |
2026-07-01T11:26:46.028000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[12].end |
2026-07-01T11:27:08.954000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].text |
因為現在促轉基金有還原歷史真相旗艦計畫，計畫期程一年到兩年，甚至最多補助可以到一千萬元之多。 |
| transcript.gazette[12].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[13].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[13].start |
2026-07-01T11:27:12.497000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[13].end |
2026-07-01T11:27:19.984000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].text |
既然是促進轉型正義，公開、公平就是正義吧？ |
| transcript.gazette[13].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[14].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[14].start |
2026-07-01T11:27:21.837000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[14].end |
2026-07-01T11:27:24.059000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].text |
結果我們去要資料，國發會拒絕提供補助名單！ |
| transcript.gazette[14].quality |
0.737 |
| transcript.gazette[15].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[15].start |
2026-07-01T11:27:24.059000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[15].end |
2026-07-01T11:27:51.411000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].text |
去申請名單，說基於個資不提供；補助名單也不提供，而且說一定要等到核定公布之後，所以意思就是錢都給好、給滿之後，到網路上公開，才能夠看到這個名單？ |
| transcript.gazette[15].quality |
0.938 |
| transcript.gazette[16].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[16].start |
2026-07-01T11:27:51.411000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[16].end |
2026-07-01T11:27:58.235000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].text |
但是奇怪了，國發基金在通過相關補助，為什麼這個名單不能提供呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[16].quality |
0.964 |
| transcript.gazette[17].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[17].start |
2026-07-01T11:27:59.476000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[17].end |
2026-07-01T11:28:00.997000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].text |
這樣有公平嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[17].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[18].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[18].start |
2026-07-01T11:28:00.997000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[18].end |
2026-07-01T11:28:02.598000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].text |
這樣有透明嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[18].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[19].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[19].start |
2026-07-01T11:28:02.598000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[19].end |
2026-07-01T11:28:19.735000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].text |
申請的單位不知道，通過的單位不知道，給完錢之後才知道，這個過程真的很啟人疑竇，既不公開，也有失公平！ |
| transcript.gazette[19].quality |
0.955 |
| transcript.gazette[20].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[20].start |
2026-07-01T11:28:24.197000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[20].end |
2026-07-01T11:28:29.240000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].text |
促轉基金既然說是正義，為何根本沒有維持基本的正義呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[20].quality |
0.792 |
| transcript.gazette[21].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[21].start |
2026-07-01T11:28:30.721000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[21].end |
2026-07-01T11:28:48.488000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].text |
我們來看他們到今年5月份在網路上，我剛剛講這個錢都已經給了，這份名單不看不知道，一看就恍然大悟。 |
| transcript.gazette[21].quality |
0.907 |
| transcript.gazette[22].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[22].start |
2026-07-01T11:28:49.608000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[22].end |
2026-07-01T11:29:00.447000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].text |
我們看促進轉型正義基金裡面，這些補助對象真的好熟悉啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[22].quality |
0.96 |
| transcript.gazette[23].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[23].start |
2026-07-01T11:29:03.431000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[23].end |
2026-07-01T11:29:29.853000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].text |
我相信我們很多委員都經歷過大罷免，怎麼樣被這些大罷免團體在網路上、在各式活動上、在街頭上怎麼樣的在發起大罷免的活動，而在國發會所謂轉型正義基金裡面的補助單位，譬如說，包含辜寬敏基金會，當時就是主要發動大罷免的團體之一。 |
| transcript.gazette[23].quality |
0.98 |
| transcript.gazette[24].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[24].start |
2026-07-01T11:29:37.697000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[24].end |
2026-07-01T11:30:07.671000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].text |
另外，臺灣左轉文化協會跟我們現在的副院長鄭麗君女士也有非常深的淵源，然後裡面還有臺北市蔡瑞月文化基金會，這個名為文化基金會，但是當時大罷免的時候，在他的臉書上堅持投入大罷免，我也不懂為何搞文化的也要堅持投入大罷免。 |
| transcript.gazette[24].quality |
0.97 |
| transcript.gazette[25].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[25].start |
2026-07-01T11:30:07.711000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[25].end |
2026-07-01T11:30:31.257000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].text |
所以我要講的，如果促轉正義基金所補助的對象有這麼多涉入選舉、涉入政治，那你就要公開透明啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[25].quality |
0.976 |
| transcript.gazette[26].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[26].start |
2026-07-01T11:30:32.338000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[26].end |
2026-07-01T11:30:47.787000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].text |
剛才許忠信委員就講他在業界、在學界也常常聽說，跟執政者、執政黨有淵源的就很容易拿到相關補助。 |
| transcript.gazette[26].quality |
0.976 |
| transcript.gazette[27].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[27].start |
2026-07-01T11:30:49.369000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[27].end |
2026-07-01T11:31:00.653000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].text |
果不其然，我剛才給大家看到的是第一階段補助計畫金額，但是接下來的就通通不提供。 |
| transcript.gazette[27].quality |
0.972 |
| transcript.gazette[28].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[28].start |
2026-07-01T11:31:04.214000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[28].end |
2026-07-01T11:31:09.395000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].text |
這些補助政府拿的是納稅人的錢，如果你自掏腰包我不管你；你今天拿民進黨黨產，我也管不到；可是你拿的不都是納稅人的錢嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[28].quality |
0.83 |
| transcript.gazette[29].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[29].start |
2026-07-01T11:31:09.395000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[29].end |
2026-07-01T11:31:09.636000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].text |
都是從公庫拿錢啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[29].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[30].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[30].start |
2026-07-01T11:31:18.486000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[30].end |
2026-07-01T11:31:20.988000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].text |
為什麼要黑箱作業呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[30].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[31].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[31].start |
2026-07-01T11:31:22.489000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[31].end |
2026-07-01T11:31:25.010000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].text |
為什麼可以不提供補助名單呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[31].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[32].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[32].start |
2026-07-01T11:31:26.671000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[32].end |
2026-07-01T11:31:31.615000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].text |
所以現在各單位有樣學樣，之前文化部也是。 |
| transcript.gazette[32].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[33].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[33].start |
2026-07-01T11:31:32.635000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[33].end |
2026-07-01T11:31:43.993000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].text |
之前文化部因為零日戰爭的補助案被曝光之後，現在文化部也不給了，都用所謂的涉及商業機密。 |
| transcript.gazette[33].quality |
0.95 |
| transcript.gazette[34].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[34].start |
2026-07-01T11:31:45.414000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[34].end |
2026-07-01T11:31:46.534000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].text |
如果你要搞商業機密，你就不要來跟政府申請補助！ |
| transcript.gazette[34].quality |
0.952 |
| transcript.gazette[35].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[35].start |
2026-07-01T11:31:46.574000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[35].end |
2026-07-01T11:31:47.155000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].text |
怎麼可以一手拿政府的錢，一手說你有商業機密，所以不能公開呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[35].quality |
0.963 |
| transcript.gazette[36].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[36].start |
2026-07-01T11:31:47.175000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[36].end |
2026-07-01T11:31:47.795000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].text |
那我們立法院還要監督嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[36].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[37].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[37].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:04.649000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[37].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:13.328000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].text |
來，主委，我知道你今天腳受傷，請你回應一下，補助名單為什麼不可以提供，你們到底要遮掩什麼？ |
| transcript.gazette[37].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[38].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[38].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:14.165000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[38].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:26.390000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].text |
第一個跟委員報告，剛剛委員有提到的多元政見第一階段，就是現在簡報上面的，這個其實已經有公告在促進轉型正義基金公私協力平臺…… |
| transcript.gazette[38].quality |
0.912 |
| transcript.gazette[39].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[39].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:27.110000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[39].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:27.931000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].text |
我剛才有講啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[39].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[40].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[40].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:28.811000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[40].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:29.851000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].text |
不然我怎麼拿到名單呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[40].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[41].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[41].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:29.851000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[41].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:30.851000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].text |
對，這個有。 |
| transcript.gazette[41].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[42].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[42].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:30.851000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[42].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:31.851000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].text |
但另外一個…… |
| transcript.gazette[42].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[43].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[43].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:30.712000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[43].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:31.392000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].text |
接下來的呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[43].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[44].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[44].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:31.972000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[44].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:39.718000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].text |
接下來委員提到旗艦計畫，那個因為還沒審完，所以等到審完之後，還是會公告出來，所以請委員稍微有耐心一下。 |
| transcript.gazette[44].quality |
0.696 |
| transcript.gazette[45].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[45].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:39.718000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[45].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:40.178000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].text |
你告訴我的是通過名單，已經有通過的不提供…… |
| transcript.gazette[45].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[46].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[46].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:40.178000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[46].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:41.178000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].text |
沒有、沒有。 |
| transcript.gazette[46].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[47].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[47].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:40.198000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[47].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:40.719000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].text |
然後你要等到……最後要到…… |
| transcript.gazette[47].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[48].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[48].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:40.739000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[48].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:40.919000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].text |
就是公告的…… |
| transcript.gazette[48].quality |
0.4 |
| transcript.gazette[49].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[49].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:41.039000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[49].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:41.900000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].text |
對，就是一定要等公告嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[49].quality |
0.6 |
| transcript.gazette[50].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[50].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:42.020000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[50].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:43.581000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].text |
沒有，現在還在審查的過程當中，現在就公告的話，不就是代表我在操弄嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[50].quality |
0.933 |
| transcript.gazette[51].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[51].start |
2026-07-01T11:32:43.581000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[51].end |
2026-07-01T11:32:44.883000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].text |
所以就讓他整個審查完成之後去公告嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[51].quality |
0.941 |
| transcript.gazette[52].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[52].start |
2026-07-01T11:33:02.179000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[52].end |
2026-07-01T11:33:19.807000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].text |
好，所以你現在可以承諾我，等到你們……因為你現在提供給我的公文是說要等到公告，也就是你們要上網路公告之後才會有名單，大家才看得到。 |
| transcript.gazette[52].quality |
0.983 |
| transcript.gazette[53].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[53].start |
2026-07-01T11:33:21.028000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[53].end |
2026-07-01T11:33:35.136000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].text |
是，因為現在還在審查的過程當中，所以審查本來就是基於審查的公正性，不希望有一些其他的干擾去影響到整個審查的公平性。 |
| transcript.gazette[53].quality |
0.943 |
| transcript.gazette[54].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[54].start |
2026-07-01T11:33:35.396000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[54].end |
2026-07-01T11:33:43.960000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].text |
所以這個部分可能要麻煩委員是不是等一下，等他審查完了，確定之後，他就會公告，跟多元政見的狀況會是一樣的，這邊跟委員報告。 |
| transcript.gazette[54].quality |
0.87 |
| transcript.gazette[55].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[55].start |
2026-07-01T11:33:45.641000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[55].end |
2026-07-01T11:33:56.331000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].text |
好，你現在不要給我什麼……等到你們通過之後就應該要提供，通過之後就要提供，除非你們要騙人家嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[55].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[56].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[56].start |
2026-07-01T11:33:56.331000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[56].end |
2026-07-01T11:33:56.691000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].text |
不會啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[56].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[57].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[57].start |
2026-07-01T11:33:56.891000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[57].end |
2026-07-01T11:33:57.211000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].text |
不會啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[57].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[58].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[58].start |
2026-07-01T11:33:57.411000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[58].end |
2026-07-01T11:33:58.452000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].text |
你們公告是什麼意思？ |
| transcript.gazette[58].quality |
0.778 |
| transcript.gazette[59].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[59].start |
2026-07-01T11:33:58.593000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[59].end |
2026-07-01T11:33:59.393000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].text |
就是已經給錢了？不會！不會！ |
| transcript.gazette[59].quality |
0.545 |
| transcript.gazette[60].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[60].start |
2026-07-01T11:33:59.393000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[60].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:00.494000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].text |
沒有、沒有，這個…… |
| transcript.gazette[60].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[61].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[61].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:00.494000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[61].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[61].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:04.278000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[61].text |
已經給錢，我直接告訴大家，你們預定的時間是12月底，就是選舉完之後。 |
| transcript.gazette[61].quality |
0.964 |
| transcript.gazette[62].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[62].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:07.500000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[62].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[62].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:12.243000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[62].text |
你們告訴我就是大概你們預定的就是12月，12月選舉都選完了，錢也都給了，然後我們知道又怎樣呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[62].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[63].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[63].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:12.263000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[63].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[63].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:12.403000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[63].text |
沒有，我們沒有那種預定時間，我們是按照…… |
| transcript.gazette[63].quality |
0.471 |
| transcript.gazette[64].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[64].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:12.483000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[64].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[64].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:13.164000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[64].text |
我剛剛有講到裡面有這麼多大罷免名單，有大罷免就會輔選，不是嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[64].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[65].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[65].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:13.164000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[65].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[65].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:34.357000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[65].text |
沒有，委員，每一個申請單位跟其他一些……他有什麼樣的活動連結其實都不是我們審查的重點，今天或許剛好委員看到…… |
| transcript.gazette[65].quality |
0.833 |
| transcript.gazette[66].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[66].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:35.418000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[66].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[66].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:35.558000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[66].text |
或許剛剛好？ |
| transcript.gazette[66].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[67].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[67].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:35.578000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[67].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[67].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:36.258000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[67].text |
每次都這樣，剛好、這麼剛好…… |
| transcript.gazette[67].quality |
0.727 |
| transcript.gazette[68].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[68].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:36.258000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[68].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[68].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:37.258000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[68].text |
但是在審查的時候…… |
| transcript.gazette[68].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[69].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[69].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:37.039000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[69].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[69].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:37.339000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[69].text |
別的團體為什麼沒有辦法剛好呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[69].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[70].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[70].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:37.399000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[70].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[70].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:38.760000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[70].text |
假如按照委員說法，應該所有的名單都是啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[70].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[71].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[71].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:47.243000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[71].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[71].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:49.284000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[71].text |
所以你的意思就要所有的名單？ |
| transcript.gazette[71].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[72].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[72].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:49.925000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[72].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[72].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:51.286000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[72].text |
你要所有的名單？ |
| transcript.gazette[72].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[73].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[73].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:52.286000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[73].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[73].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:52.726000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[73].text |
真的這還不夠？ |
| transcript.gazette[73].quality |
0.5 |
| transcript.gazette[74].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[74].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:52.726000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[74].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[74].end |
2026-07-01T11:34:53.726000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[74].text |
沒有，第一個…… |
| transcript.gazette[74].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[75].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[75].start |
2026-07-01T11:34:53.367000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[75].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[75].end |
2026-07-01T11:35:00.251000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[75].text |
老實說，我今天挑出來的……主委這樣講，其實我挑出來的都是當時非常積極活躍的…… |
| transcript.gazette[75].quality |
0.879 |
| transcript.gazette[76].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[76].start |
2026-07-01T11:35:00.251000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[76].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[76].end |
2026-07-01T11:35:01.251000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[76].text |
我們還是一樣堅持原則、堅持專業…… |
| transcript.gazette[76].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[77].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[77].start |
2026-07-01T11:35:00.551000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[77].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[77].end |
2026-07-01T11:35:10.017000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[77].text |
有的是潛在海裡面的或者其實就是跟執政黨或執政者的政治人物交好的。 |
| transcript.gazette[77].quality |
0.935 |
| transcript.gazette[78].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[78].start |
2026-07-01T11:35:10.017000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[78].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[78].end |
2026-07-01T11:35:11.017000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[78].text |
委員，我們的審查是依照專業…… |
| transcript.gazette[78].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[79].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[79].start |
2026-07-01T11:35:10.217000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[79].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[79].end |
2026-07-01T11:35:17.901000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[79].text |
我剛才指的還是直接跳出來做大罷免的，所以你覺得還不夠？ |
| transcript.gazette[79].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[80].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[80].start |
2026-07-01T11:35:17.901000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[80].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[80].end |
2026-07-01T11:35:26.485000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[80].text |
我們不會有任何偏頗，還是依照專業在審查，也請委員相信這些外部的委員專家，因為我們也不想去干擾他。 |
| transcript.gazette[80].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[81].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[81].start |
2026-07-01T11:35:28.446000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[81].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[81].end |
2026-07-01T11:35:39.010000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[81].text |
好，所以你們外部委員就已經開始了，你們外部委員找的就是這些團體的代表或者是親這些團體的代表。 |
| transcript.gazette[81].quality |
0.93 |
| transcript.gazette[82].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[82].start |
2026-07-01T11:35:40.251000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[82].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[82].end |
2026-07-01T11:35:46.554000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[82].text |
政府單位長期以來對這種各式各樣的補助……就如同蘇巧純，你也說是外部委員嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[82].quality |
0.939 |
| transcript.gazette[83].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[83].start |
2026-07-01T11:35:47.034000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[83].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[83].end |
2026-07-01T11:35:48.014000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[83].text |
尊重外部委員嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[83].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[84].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[84].start |
2026-07-01T11:35:48.655000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[84].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[84].end |
2026-07-01T11:35:50.475000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[84].text |
外部委員怎麼千挑萬挑，就可以挑到蘇貞昌的女兒呢？ |
| transcript.gazette[84].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[85].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[85].start |
2026-07-01T11:35:50.495000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[85].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[85].end |
2026-07-01T11:35:50.515000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[85].text |
對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[85].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[86].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[86].start |
2026-07-01T11:35:50.515000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[86].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[86].end |
2026-07-01T11:35:54.617000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[86].text |
沒有，跟委員…… |
| transcript.gazette[86].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[87].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[87].start |
2026-07-01T11:35:54.617000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[87].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[87].end |
2026-07-01T11:35:56.218000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[87].text |
你可以以昭公信嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[87].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[88].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[88].start |
2026-07-01T11:35:56.218000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[88].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[88].end |
2026-07-01T11:36:04.121000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[88].text |
跟委員報告，國發基金在審查投資案的時候，所有委員都是用抽籤的，我們事前沒有辦法預估是誰。 |
| transcript.gazette[88].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[89].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[89].start |
2026-07-01T11:36:04.121000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[89].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[89].end |
2026-07-01T11:36:06.602000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[89].text |
我們有一個pool，但是我們抽籤是隨機的，所以誰會上來…… |
| transcript.gazette[89].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[90].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[90].start |
2026-07-01T11:36:07.002000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[90].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[90].end |
2026-07-01T11:36:07.182000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[90].text |
這種話你不用講，不然也只能講給3歲小孩聽啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[90].quality |
0.632 |
| transcript.gazette[91].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[91].start |
2026-07-01T11:36:07.483000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[91].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[91].end |
2026-07-01T11:36:07.883000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[91].text |
沒有、沒有。 |
| transcript.gazette[91].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[92].speaker |
葉主任委員俊顯 |
| transcript.gazette[92].start |
2026-07-01T11:36:07.883000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[92].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[92].end |
2026-07-01T11:36:08.883000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[92].text |
講真的，有參加…… |
| transcript.gazette[92].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[93].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[93].start |
2026-07-01T11:36:07.903000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[93].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[93].end |
2026-07-01T11:36:37.384000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[93].text |
我要講的就是怎麼這麼恰恰巧，我告訴你，到時候我還會繼續公布，你們國發會相關補助真的都有跟執政黨的政治人物、執政黨的這些民意代表特別、特別好，而且很容易拿到補助，還補好補滿，但別人來申請就非常困難！ |
| transcript.gazette[93].quality |
0.888 |
| transcript.gazette[94].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[94].start |
2026-07-01T11:36:38.425000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[94].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[94].end |
2026-07-01T11:36:44.169000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[94].text |
然後我們今天開了一個專案報告會議，你給了一張A4正反兩面的報告，這什麼意思？ |
| transcript.gazette[94].quality |
0.794 |
| transcript.gazette[95].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[95].start |
2026-07-01T11:36:45.090000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[95].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[95].end |
2026-07-01T11:36:45.850000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[95].text |
就是不想交代嘛！沒有。 |
| transcript.gazette[95].quality |
0.667 |
| transcript.gazette[96].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[96].start |
2026-07-01T11:36:47.567000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[96].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[96].end |
2026-07-01T11:36:52.608000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[96].text |
這些補助案難道你們不應該很清楚地跟立法院來做交代嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[96].quality |
0.96 |
| transcript.gazette[97].speaker |
王委員鴻薇 |
| transcript.gazette[97].start |
2026-07-01T11:36:52.608000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[97].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[97].end |
2026-07-01T11:37:10.532000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[97].text |
我在這邊就不耽誤下一位委員的發言時間，但是我請國發會不要假所謂轉型正義之名，去行補助給特定政治團體之實，也不要假所謂發展產業之名，去行補助給這些特定的特權企業之實，好不好？ |
| transcript.gazette[97].quality |
0.912 |
| transcript.gazette[98].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[98].start |
2026-07-01T11:37:18.776000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[98].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[98].end |
2026-07-01T11:37:18.937000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[98].text |
謝謝王鴻薇委員。 |
| transcript.gazette[98].quality |
0.571 |
| transcript.gazette[99].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[99].start |
2026-07-01T11:37:19.437000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[99].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[99].end |
2026-07-01T11:37:22.579857+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[99].text |
接下來，請陳清龍委員質詢。 |
| transcript.gazette[99].quality |
0 |
| gazette.lineno |
1217 |
| gazette.blocks[0][0] |
王委員鴻薇：（11時24分）謝謝主席。今天國發會主委是因為…… |
| gazette.blocks[1][0] |
主席：腳傷。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][0] |
王委員鴻薇：所以就在位子上答詢？好，沒問題。 |
| gazette.blocks[2][1] |
今天謝謝召委安排專案報告，這個專案報告的緣起，主要是因為外界質疑國發基金在蘇貞昌擔任行政院長的任內，國發基金的補助補好、補滿，也就是蘇貞昌院長的女兒蘇巧純可以在國發基金拿到相關的補助。可是我看到今天國發會的報告，去除封面整個A4紙就這樣一張。面對外界這麼多的疑慮，有沒有利益迴避的問題、有沒有公開透明的問題、補助的程序？結果就這樣子，A4紙一張！如果去除跟委員及委員會問好，還有講國發會的宗旨，三分之一的篇幅不見了，真的很有誠意來做報告嗎？真的很有誠意來落實所謂的公開、公平嗎？剛才經濟部長也說政府單位補助就要公開、公平，可是有公開嗎？我現在給大家看，在整個補助裡面，國發會有很多補助，其中促轉基金會結束之後，有所謂的促轉正義基金移到國發會來做執行補助。因為現在促轉基金有還原歷史真相旗艦計畫，計畫期程一年到兩年，甚至最多補助可以到一千萬元之多。既然是促進轉型正義，公開、公平就是正義吧？結果我們去要資料，國發會拒絕提供補助名單！去申請名單，說基於個資不提供；補助名單也不提供，而且說一定要等到核定公布之後，所以意思就是錢都給好、給滿之後，到網路上公開，才能夠看到這個名單？但是奇怪了，國發基金在通過相關補助，為什麼這個名單不能提供呢？這樣有公平嗎？這樣有透明嗎？申請的單位不知道，通過的單位不知道，給完錢之後才知道，這個過程真的很啟人疑竇，既不公開，也有失公平！ |
| gazette.blocks[2][2] |
促轉基金既然說是正義，為何根本沒有維持基本的正義呢？我們來看他們到今年5月份在網路上，我剛剛講這個錢都已經給了，這份名單不看不知道，一看就恍然大悟。我們看促進轉型正義基金裡面，這些補助對象真的好熟悉啊！我相信我們很多委員都經歷過大罷免，怎麼樣被這些大罷免團體在網路上、在各式活動上、在街頭上怎麼樣的在發起大罷免的活動，而在國發會所謂轉型正義基金裡面的補助單位，譬如說，包含辜寬敏基金會，當時就是主要發動大罷免的團體之一。另外，臺灣左轉文化協會跟我們現在的副院長鄭麗君女士也有非常深的淵源，然後裡面還有臺北市蔡瑞月文化基金會，這個名為文化基金會，但是當時大罷免的時候，在他的臉書上堅持投入大罷免，我也不懂為何搞文化的也要堅持投入大罷免。所以我要講的，如果促轉正義基金所補助的對象有這麼多涉入選舉、涉入政治，那你就要公開透明啊！剛才許忠信委員就講他在業界、在學界也常常聽說，跟執政者、執政黨有淵源的就很容易拿到相關補助。果不其然，我剛才給大家看到的是第一階段補助計畫金額，但是接下來的就通通不提供。這些補助政府拿的是納稅人的錢，如果你自掏腰包我不管你；你今天拿民進黨黨產，我也管不到；可是你拿的不都是納稅人的錢嗎？都是從公庫拿錢啊！為什麼要黑箱作業呢？為什麼可以不提供補助名單呢？所以現在各單位有樣學樣，之前文化部也是。之前文化部因為零日戰爭的補助案被曝光之後，現在文化部也不給了，都用所謂的涉及商業機密。如果你要搞商業機密，你就不要來跟政府申請補助！怎麼可以一手拿政府的錢，一手說你有商業機密，所以不能公開呢？那我們立法院還要監督嗎？來，主委，我知道你今天腳受傷，請你回應一下，補助名單為什麼不可以提供，你們到底要遮掩什麼？ |
| gazette.blocks[3][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：第一個跟委員報告，剛剛委員有提到的多元政見第一階段，就是現在簡報上面的，這個其實已經有公告在促進轉型正義基金公私協力平臺…… |
| gazette.blocks[4][0] |
王委員鴻薇：我剛才有講啊！不然我怎麼拿到名單呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[5][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：對，這個有。但另外一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[6][0] |
王委員鴻薇：接下來的呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[7][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：接下來委員提到旗艦計畫，那個因為還沒審完，所以等到審完之後，還是會公告出來，所以請委員稍微有耐心一下。 |
| gazette.blocks[8][0] |
王委員鴻薇：你告訴我的是通過名單，已經有通過的不提供…… |
| gazette.blocks[9][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：沒有、沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[10][0] |
王委員鴻薇：然後你要等到……最後要到…… |
| gazette.blocks[11][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：就是公告的…… |
| gazette.blocks[12][0] |
王委員鴻薇：對，就是一定要等公告嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[13][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：沒有，現在還在審查的過程當中，現在就公告的話，不就是代表我在操弄嗎？所以就讓他整個審查完成之後去公告嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[14][0] |
王委員鴻薇：好，所以你現在可以承諾我，等到你們……因為你現在提供給我的公文是說要等到公告，也就是你們要上網路公告之後才會有名單，大家才看得到。 |
| gazette.blocks[15][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：是，因為現在還在審查的過程當中，所以審查本來就是基於審查的公正性，不希望有一些其他的干擾去影響到整個審查的公平性。所以這個部分可能要麻煩委員是不是等一下，等他審查完了，確定之後，他就會公告，跟多元政見的狀況會是一樣的，這邊跟委員報告。 |
| gazette.blocks[16][0] |
王委員鴻薇：好，你現在不要給我什麼……等到你們通過之後就應該要提供，通過之後就要提供，除非你們要騙人家嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[17][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：不會啦！不會啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[18][0] |
王委員鴻薇：你們公告是什麼意思？就是已經給錢了？ |
| gazette.blocks[19][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：不會！不會！沒有、沒有，這個…… |
| gazette.blocks[20][0] |
王委員鴻薇：已經給錢，我直接告訴大家，你們預定的時間是12月底，就是選舉完之後。你們告訴我就是大概你們預定的就是12月，12月選舉都選完了，錢也都給了，然後我們知道又怎樣呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[21][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：沒有，我們沒有那種預定時間，我們是按照…… |
| gazette.blocks[22][0] |
王委員鴻薇：我剛剛有講到裡面有這麼多大罷免名單，有大罷免就會輔選，不是嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[23][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：沒有，委員，每一個申請單位跟其他一些……他有什麼樣的活動連結其實都不是我們審查的重點，今天或許剛好委員看到…… |
| gazette.blocks[24][0] |
王委員鴻薇：或許剛剛好？每次都這樣，剛好、這麼剛好…… |
| gazette.blocks[25][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：但是在審查的時候…… |
| gazette.blocks[26][0] |
王委員鴻薇：別的團體為什麼沒有辦法剛好呢？ |
| gazette.blocks[27][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：假如按照委員說法，應該所有的名單都是啊！ |
| gazette.blocks[28][0] |
王委員鴻薇：所以你的意思就要所有的名單？你要所有的名單？真的這還不夠？ |
| gazette.blocks[29][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：沒有，第一個…… |
| gazette.blocks[30][0] |
王委員鴻薇：老實說，我今天挑出來的……主委這樣講，其實我挑出來的都是當時非常積極活躍的…… |
| gazette.blocks[31][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：我們還是一樣堅持原則、堅持專業…… |
| gazette.blocks[32][0] |
王委員鴻薇：有的是潛在海裡面的或者其實就是跟執政黨或執政者的政治人物交好的。 |
| gazette.blocks[33][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：委員，我們的審查是依照專業…… |
| gazette.blocks[34][0] |
王委員鴻薇：我剛才指的還是直接跳出來做大罷免的，所以你覺得還不夠？ |
| gazette.blocks[35][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：我們不會有任何偏頗，還是依照專業在審查，也請委員相信這些外部的委員專家，因為我們也不想去干擾他。 |
| gazette.blocks[36][0] |
王委員鴻薇：好，所以你們外部委員就已經開始了，你們外部委員找的就是這些團體的代表或者是親這些團體的代表。政府單位長期以來對這種各式各樣的補助……就如同蘇巧純，你也說是外部委員嘛！尊重外部委員嘛！外部委員怎麼千挑萬挑，就可以挑到蘇貞昌的女兒呢？對不對？ |
| gazette.blocks[37][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：沒有，跟委員…… |
| gazette.blocks[38][0] |
王委員鴻薇：你可以以昭公信嗎？ |
| gazette.blocks[39][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，國發基金在審查投資案的時候，所有委員都是用抽籤的，我們事前沒有辦法預估是誰。我們有一個pool，但是我們抽籤是隨機的，所以誰會上來…… |
| gazette.blocks[40][0] |
王委員鴻薇：這種話你不用講，不然也只能講給3歲小孩聽啦！ |
| gazette.blocks[41][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：沒有、沒有。講真的，有參加…… |
| gazette.blocks[42][0] |
王委員鴻薇：我要講的就是怎麼這麼恰恰巧，我告訴你，到時候我還會繼續公布，你們國發會相關補助真的都有跟執政黨的政治人物、執政黨的這些民意代表特別、特別好，而且很容易拿到補助，還補好補滿，但別人來申請就非常困難！然後我們今天開了一個專案報告會議，你給了一張A4正反兩面的報告，這什麼意思？就是不想交代嘛！ |
| gazette.blocks[43][0] |
葉主任委員俊顯：沒有。 |
| gazette.blocks[44][0] |
王委員鴻薇：這些補助案難道你們不應該很清楚地跟立法院來做交代嗎？我在這邊就不耽誤下一位委員的發言時間，但是我請國發會不要假所謂轉型正義之名，去行補助給特定政治團體之實，也不要假所謂發展產業之名，去行補助給這些特定的特權企業之實，好不好？ |
| gazette.blocks[45][0] |
主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。 |
| gazette.blocks[45][1] |
接下來，請陳清龍委員質詢。 |
| gazette.agenda.page_end |
364 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_id |
委員會-11-5-19-19 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[0] |
洪毓祥 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[1] |
邱議瑩 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[2] |
邱志偉 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[3] |
陳亭妃 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[4] |
楊瓊瓔 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[5] |
謝衣鳯 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[6] |
鄭正鈐 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[7] |
鍾佳濱 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[8] |
鄭天財Sra Kacaw |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[9] |
呂玉玲 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[10] |
許忠信 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[11] |
王鴻薇 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[12] |
陳清龍 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[13] |
傅崐萁 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[14] |
蔡易餘 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[15] |
賴瑞隆 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[16] |
張嘉郡 |
| gazette.agenda.speakers[17] |
陳超明 |
| gazette.agenda.page_start |
249 |
| gazette.agenda.meetingDate[0] |
2026-07-01 |
| gazette.agenda.gazette_id |
1155701 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_lcidc_ids[0] |
1155701_00008 |
| gazette.agenda.meet_name |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄 |
| gazette.agenda.content |
邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及法務部首長就「經濟部、國家發展委員會補助案審
查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」進行報告，並備質詢 |
| gazette.agenda.agenda_id |
1155701_00012 |