| IVOD_ID |
170200 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170200 |
| 日期 |
2026-07-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-36-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
22 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-07-01T09:53:59+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-07-01T10:12:38+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:18:39 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/10566d69eaf1b9acd8ec2641a752a37c95b27c9e03a9ae5381ccc59e5c6864179b0160faa0cdae515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
沈發惠 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:53:59 - 10:12:38 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-07-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：審查考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法修正草案」案。
【僅進行詢答】
【7月1日及2日兩天一次會】） |
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主席我想我們直接請市部長好請市部長市長早市部長早 |
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我想今天這個,不知道是部長有沒有印象,在3月19的時候,我們這個司法院來進行這個立法計畫跟業務報告的時候,那時候 |
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本席就針對這個考機法的問題那時候有跟市部長這邊來請教那時候最主要當然是針對那時候針對這個我們公共政策網路網路參與平台那時候有一個民間的提案那裡面關於主要幾個重點大概就是它的我們甲等乙等的這些比例的規定另外就是這個有關於這個評量的機制 |
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85.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
再來就是說這個考評平和的這個責任,大概就這幾點我們這個我看這個這一次我們在5月15我們終於把這個考級法的修正出來,那時候我就問說這個考級法什麼時候要修那時候部長就說說這個會很快的送進立法院,那我們5月15送進來,今天才開這個會 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
88.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
113.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我看了你們送進來的整個草案,基本上像這個網路偵測平台或者是民間大家所關心的這些我剛提的這幾個問題,你們都在這法案修正裡面都做了回應而且都基本上是往這個方向來修正,這部分我先給你們肯定但是我現在要請教部長,你有沒有看到今天司法院的書面報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
114.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
140.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我有看到有看到司法院書面報告昨天晚上昨天晚上看到因為你們這個不用會前司法院所以你們現在才看到司法院的意見我也仔細看了司法院的意見這個其實是對這部草案有幾個蠻核心的關鍵問題提出了很核心的挑戰這部分我覺得今天我們要做個回應或者是說這部分因為我們今天只進行詢答不會進行逐條 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
141.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
166.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
未來在進行逐條之前我覺得這幾個司法院所提出來的問題我覺得我們必須要做討論跟處理不然的話到時候在逐條的時候你要本院委員支持這個草案上面可能會在幾個關鍵的節點上面會產生很大的疑慮尤其司法院直指我們有一些已經違反憲法的層次 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
168.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
193.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這個部分大概中緒線2.8 第一點就是說剛剛也有委員談到這個事情那我們會剛剛也提到說我們會用書面的方式就司法案提的一個議題我們會主點來表達我們意見給委員會然後這是大概是大的方向是這樣我現在大概就針對幾個我個人認為說一定要說明清楚不然很難 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
195.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
220.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這個獲得這個立法上面支持的幾個點來這邊跟你請教那我看今天司法院我們是由這個行政訴訟及懲戒廳的法官合法官我想合法官應該是在這個對司法院這個意見是相當的清楚現在才代表司法院來了那很抱歉我們就請合法官來啦這個這事務長你留步我們就是要討論這幾個問題第一個齁 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
224.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
225.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
首先針對這個修正條件第16條 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
232.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
243.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
第一項第二款過去原本我們這是有關於供貨獎懲的部分我們把獎勵跟懲處把它分開來這16條就變成專論懲處這部分有針對違反服務法令跟紀律行為的部分我們在第一項第二款有一個降序一級這個是新增的規定有關降序一級 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
260.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
268.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
降序一級的這個規定這部分司法院是不是能夠講一下有關於這個降序一級你們在書面議件裡面所提的這個意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
269.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
295.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
好 各位委員報告因為這個司法院大法官釋字第483號解釋曾經明確的做過解釋關於這個公務員的降級或減縫當時大法官認為就是必須要經過公務員懲戒機關這個目前就是懲戒法院依法定程序審議決定如果不是依照這個程序審議決定不得降級或減縫大法官當時認為這個是憲法上服公職權利所受的自主性保障好 謝謝那我們請事務部長回答一下有關於這個降序一級 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
297.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
313.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個剛剛司法院的意見說認為這大法會議已經解釋了這是專屬於司法權了我想跟我們報告我們內部有討論過因為481號的解釋那時候那時候的奉集法那個考集法根本還沒有降序以久我們認為這是一個只要在立法政策上裡面放上去呢實際上是沒有這個問題的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
315.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
334.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
你們在就是你們立法理由就是解釋之前事實上是這個考紀法也沒有這個降序以舉這種概念那我們認為呢只要符合法律保障的一個程序我們把它放在法律裡面立法就是立法會授權放在法律裡面但是你這個大法會議解釋他解釋說這個是屬於 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
335.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
348.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
懲戒法院也就是司法權它是屬於司法權才可以做我想大法官這解釋是回到懲戒跟懲處最上位的那個區分那我們認為我們這一次是用行政懲處的方式來處理這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
351.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
368.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
降序是行政懲處嗎我們認為行政懲處把用法律的方式加進來降序讓機關針對不同類型的現在爭議的是司法院認為這個降序不能用行政懲處這是專屬於司法權的這是司法懲戒法院才可以做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
369.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
391.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
跟我有報告因為這個所謂的制度性保障他就是憲法上憲法層級的一種程序的保障所以當時大法官應該是認為說這個公務員要被降級或減分他必須要經過一定的程序這個程序大法官講的就是公務員承接機關依法定程序審議所以這個當時大法官說這是制度性保障制度性保障是憲法層級的保障他並不是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
392.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
404.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個哪個法律怎麼定他就可以隨意去修改的那483號解釋目前也沒有被後面的任何的解釋或是憲法判決推翻過所以他目前仍然是有效的解釋依照這個憲法訴訟法規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
406.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
431.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以這個部分齁,這個部分我認為,這個事務長你剛才解釋有一點就是說你認為這個降序也屬於行政處分的部分但是依照這個司法院的意見認為所謂檢控或者是降序,這個都是都是屬於司法權,都是由懲戒法院才能做的所以你現在在這裡新增了這個降序一級齁,這個在未來立法上面這個會 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
432.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
442.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
會有違憲的疑慮就是說即使我們立法院支持你通過了如果有人因為這樣這樣去了現在送憲法法庭事實上是有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
443.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
461.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
依照司法院意見你這個是有可能被判處被做違憲判決的這部分我希望說我覺得你們內部齁應該我個人認為你們在立法理由裡面提到說483號解釋齁這個提說非侵懲戒程序不得為降級處分齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
464.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
477.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你們提到說舉重以民輕的原則啦你意思就是說免職都是屬於行政機關的專屬權利的那這樣續比免職還輕所以你們意思只會舉重以民輕是這個意思嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
478.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
497.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你說這個解釋就是說這個免職的權利是屬於行政權的核心權利所以免職都已經是核心權利了所以降序應該也是屬於行政權但是司法院看法完全不同他認為說檢訪跟降序他就是必須經過懲戒法院的程序必須他是專屬於司法權他認為這是在憲法裡面的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
499.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
515.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這部分第一個我們在我們進入逐條之前我認為你們這部分如果不做解決這一條這個將去處分的這個規定我們到時候可能會有很大的爭議那接著有關於第20條我們這次修正案的第20條 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
517.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
536.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
基本上這個司法院在這一條也非常非常有意見就是你們所提到在第20條的第4項基本上就規定說同一個違私的行為如果已經做了行政的處分就不再就排除掉這個移送懲戒了就不再移送懲戒就用行政處分來排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
537.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
566.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
司法權的移送懲戒移送懲戒就是交由監察院或者是由懲戒法院來處理那第五項就是說懲戒法院審理當中停止就必須要停止程序跟包括救濟程序都要停止這部分大概第20條司法院在這兩個部分有非常大的意見這部分是不是先請合法官我們就這個所謂同意為師行為不再移送懲戒這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
567.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
593.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你要不要說一下你們司法院的看法跟委員報告確實這個部分我們司法院確實是有蠻大的意見這個詳細的內容當然是書面不過我想我提出一個議題像最近大家如果看到新聞懲戒法公務員被考積法免職之後那因為考積法的免職目前是沒有禁止在任的效果的但其實我們懲戒法的免職如果是被懲戒法判決免職的話原則上是終身禁止在任公務員那這位這位何法官你講的是第11條的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
595.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
623.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我現在這邊提說就是他封主會造成一個問題就是他如果被考積法免職之後就算依照現在的草案他經過一定時間之後都還是可以再任的兩年所以他等於是所以先變成說如果這個公務員有了重大違時結果被機關用考積法免職之後他就沒辦法移送懲戒了那他就不會被懲戒法院判決免職這樣的結果就變成這個公務員在一定期間經過之後他就可以再任了他本來如果到懲戒法院被判決免職他是終生不能再任公務員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
623.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
639.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以我覺得他效果是沒有辦法取代司法懲戒的部長你知道司法院講的意思嗎我當然知道你說明一下我覺得這種講法即使案子送到工程會去工程會是不是一定會給予更重的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
640.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
643.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
免職本身的效果我們免職效果是兩年以後不能再任但是在公務人員任用法裡面是永久 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
655.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
683.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
是永久的消極資格你如果依照公務員任用法免職的你終身都不能都不能在任但是按照烤雞法免職的兩年後可以在任而偏偏你們是按照烤雞法兩年的免職裡面的你們的條件有很多都是非常重大的判國這些這些等等這些重大罪行就重大罪行的兩年後可以在任但是一般按照公務員任用法免職的我理解 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
684.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
707.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我的意思是在講是說我們根據考機法如果趕快免職以後我們現在因為我們基於不要製造這個如果同樣一個室友送到工程會去第一個工程會通常每個案件處理時間都很久事實上我們要強調的是快速所以第二個送去以後同一個室友啦送到工程會去工程會未必一定會判他那個終身免職也有可能是撤職 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
708.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
733.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所以我們的任用就是不得再任用兩年那工程會撤止最長五年那過去實務慣例上大概是兩到三年所以我的意思在講這個是如果用這套邏輯應該這樣解釋至於是什麼東西適不適合在公務任用法裡面直接講說這些重大事由是不是就應該要終身免職這是另外一個立法政策的問題公務人員任用法第28條 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
735.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
755.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
第一項第六款的規定它承受免職、懲處處分者系不得任用公務人員之永久消極資格永久終生永久消極資格不因時間經過而消滅所以按照這一條的免職它的時效是永遠不得再任但是如果你們用這個因為你們就用了這個考積法 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
760.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
782.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
就先行政 先用行政懲處 然後排除掉就用這一條把他排除掉 送懲戒你說因為已經送處分了 有人說不送懲戒不送懲戒你就排除掉他 未來在司法上面受到終身按照公務員任用法 終身不得任用的這個限制就排除掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
783.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
796.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個是第一個啦我們不要講說到免職啦你們因為這樣子的你們這個立法就是基本上就變成你們用行政懲處你們來整個就是封阻掉司法的懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
798.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
814.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
我們沒有封主啦我們是說同一個室友如果行政已經做出懲處了已經確定了就不要再往下沒有沒有 這個就是問題啊你行政已經懲處了你就封主掉他未來就不再送司法的懲戒但司法懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
816.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
828.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
司法懲戒你這樣會造成一個結果啦會造成一種例如說你有關於這個霸凌啦或者是其他的這些案件我趕快在你被移送懲戒之前我趕快先做行政處分 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
829.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
854.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那你就不得再送懲戒了那我要跟委員報告就是說社會上非常期待呢只要是有類似公務人員這重大為事的事情刑事機關就是要立即做出處理我想委員應該也支持這樣這個我支持我意思是說你們做了行政懲處之後為什麼要排除掉為什麼我做了行政懲處我就排除掉他的移送因為如果再往後面去我們不曉得後面的那個第一個他時間會拖很久 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
856.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
880.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
事實上他處理個案我們最近看那個事要大概快到一年我的意思是說時效你行政可以很快的做行政處分但是你你為什麼要排除掉我做行政處分之後就不能不再送不再移送懲戒我覺得這個人是同一個室友不要有兩個處分事實上在憲判第九號裡面大概說這個程序面你們是不是應該都去了解一下我們是用這種方式來避免這個事情講一下這個意見我剛剛講法跟這個事務長講法 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
885.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
904.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
對確實目前其實目前限制就是這個樣子其實行政機關目前本來就可以先以考機法來做這個考機法的懲處但是目前的限制是他並不會排除他同時做完懲處之後同時將案件移付懲戒那目前的規定是如果後續懲戒法院做出了懲戒判決之後有做懲戒處分那原本的前面的懲處會失效 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
905.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
933.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那這樣的做法其實就是現在的做法其實並不會有剛剛市部長講的說他沒辦法立即處理的問題因為他其實現在本來依照現在的規定他現在行政機關跑完這個行政懲處流程之後他就可以做懲處的免治了好 謝謝 市部長跟委員報告這個絕對是立法政策的問題那我要實際提供一個討論就是說社會上期待我們要盡快處理這個事情那處理完以後就讓它結束了就不要在我後面的程序Pending在那裡那實際上 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
934.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
959.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
老實說 行政法 懲戒法案對最重的處罰曾祭出叫做終身免職的這個處分不管是什麼案件 我想比例應該是很低很低那我們這一次把行政懲處的概念讓刑事機關有各種可以回應社會的一個機會馬上處理我覺得這才是一個應該要走的方式剛剛委員提到像什麼內亂懷患這種東西那個在任用法就明摩禁止了 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
960.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
973.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
現在的討論的重點是為什麼你們要修法上面要增訂這一條說我已經進行行政主任之後我要排除掉你以後就不再送司法懲戒了我還是一樣這是最重要一個是行政紀律的貫徹這個沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
975.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
989.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
到現行一樣啊剛剛司法院講現行我也可以做行政懲處同時移送因為後面我們不曉得會發生什麼事情發生什麼事情是司法權啊但是我覺得對動物同仁來講我行政權可以先做處分但是後續司法權做什麼樣的判決我們可以再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
990.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1019.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我跟委員報告一下我們的態度是行政權做處分以完以後公務同仁所有的救濟就進入到他的救濟程序對不起時間的關係他可以進入到他的救濟程序司法院引用了一個非常重量級的叫做憲法第77條司法院認為公務員的這個懲戒是專屬於司法權的用憲法第77條簡單講就是說他們認為你這樣子用這個行政懲戒來排除掉後續的這個司法懲戒他們認為這個就違憲了 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1021.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1039.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
所以未來如果有這樣子的問題,一樣未來再送這個憲法法庭的時候,這條你同樣有可能會被判決為違憲這個是司法院所提出來的警示,這部分我認為說你們一樣在逐條之前你們必須要解釋清楚,不然連我說的我還 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1043.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1065.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我還蠻贊同司法院的意見我認為說司法院意見的邏輯非常清楚針對這個憲法上面最後一點點時間就是有關於你們在第17條你們提到說經檢察官提起公訴加上機關認定你們就可以進行一次計兩大過處分可以於免職 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1067.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1087.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
這個部分司法院也非常有意見啊認為說為什麼經檢察官起訴機關認定他還沒有還沒有這個司法最後的判決你們就可以可以這個進行他認為說這個就是在正當程序無罪推定跟比例原則都違反了我跟委員報告這個也是現行考機法裡面就有類似的規定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1088.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1116.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
好這部分我們我想逐條的時候我們再來進行這個討論不過我希望說司法院的這個意見我們司法院的意見這部分我個人認為他講得蠻清楚的就是不是反對你們的修法而是你們修法這裡面有這幾個點這個司法院認為非常有疑慮我本席也認為說這個部分在法律上面有一些疑義這個在未來逐條審查的時候可能會遇到問題以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1119.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1120.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
好,谢谢 |