| IVOD_ID |
170197 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170197 |
| 日期 |
2026-07-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-19-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
19 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-07-01T09:43:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-07-01T10:00:46+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:41 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/10566d69eaf1b9acec96def1c57a0095d7789928a886f01881ccc59e5c68641775006cf0b37b233e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
洪毓祥 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:43:05 - 10:00:46 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-07-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及法務部首長就「經濟部、國家發展委員會補助案審查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」進行報告，並備質詢。
【7月1日及7月2日二天一次會】） |
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好 謝謝主席我請這一個國發會還有三發署跟中緝署 謝謝好 請三位可以可以可以 您坐著就好坐著坐著 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
26.274 |
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47.014 |
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好我想會排這個質詢是因為我們經濟部管了很多東西不管當然還包含產發那基本上來講產發不用上台沒關係基本上來講包含很多的補助國發的話基本上很多的投資甚至包括我們那時候省的天使基金等等 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
47.975 |
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65.341 |
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那會有這個問題的發生我覺得跟一些委員講的什麼個案政治我覺得一點關係都沒有因為主要我長期輔導新創很多年那新創事業呢 有人 一堆人來排 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
66.687 |
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89.489 |
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跟我檢舉那我當然也不能給你們檢舉信函那我是說不太可能啊我們在審查的時候基本上都是剛剛兩位不管相關部會首長講都是合法合規嘛然後符合利益關係的這個立法的所有的規範那只是呢我們去把這個資料找出來之後發現他 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
91.775 |
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106.469 |
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就是沒有完全的遵守這個利益衝突的法案所以導致有些新創事業覺得說我能力很強但是我可能社會資本關係不夠所以他覺得有點不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
108.17 |
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125.845 |
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我看了一下當然這些公司的能量都很夠但是所獲得的申請補助或者是沒有通過補助當然這有很多其他因素我們就覺得這是制度上的問題就這個樣子我們在5月26號然後在6月9號、6月22號分別黨團開過記者會然後來找這樣子的一個事情這個事情是就很明顯 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
137.773 |
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157.874 |
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好 這我就不再贅述那主要的話就是我那時候也覺得還蠻巧的就是整個 如果按照時間軸來看的話蘇角群這樣子他是跨市智能的董事 而且是第二大股然後呢 威如科技的訪管的服務平台AK Swap 他是執行長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
159.713 |
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188.791 |
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所以如果你把它跟立衝法的規範弄起來的話也就是你的關係人比如說你是這個機關首長你是各級民意代表然後呢你是在二清等以內的這個清楚按照我們這個立衝法的規定第二條的規定還有第三條這個關係人公職人與關係人的規範它在在的都是具體而成立的 |
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189.659 |
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201.245 |
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那只是很湊巧的就是說在2021年他加入擔任礦事智能擔任董事那之後國發基金的天使投資三發署補助這樣一路下來 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
202.754 |
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227.017 |
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這些我不能說你違法因為按照我們立法規定就是我的關係人有很厲害的親屬二親等以內家屬這一種所謂的公開公正公平的招標這個都是可以參與的你不能因為說我的爸爸媽媽姐姐妹妹兄弟是擔任民意代表機關首長我就不能參與政府的這一個公共補助平台這一點沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
228.078 |
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241.742 |
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這一點沒有問題但是有問題的地方呢絕對也不是說你的這個他的案子好或不好 案子好或不好也不是你們認定嘛也就是我們審查委員的機制去認定但是這個比較嚴重的問題的話就是根據我們立沖法的這個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
250.046 |
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275.751 |
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主要是在第14條這裡因為它是屬於符合剛剛的要件所以在第三集這邊基於法定身份來申請這個沒有問題但是呢也就是我們在第四項後面列的你在前項但書第一款之第三款補助交易行為前應主動申請投標文件內據實表明其身份關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
277.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
295.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
好像我在擔任各個審查委員包含這個以前擔任國發機械電子我們每一個案件都要審查委員都要寫有沒有利益迴避對不對有沒有關係利益要衝突有我們就退出這樣的審查可是呢這一個東西我想要問的就是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
296.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
312.277 |
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一個一個來好了就是這個是一定要填的甚至你在補助交易成立之後該機關要連同其身份公司主動公開資所以我想問的是第一個國發基金這邊在當時 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
315.624 |
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342.252 |
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礦市智能第二大股東董事室書橋的時候他有沒有告訴我們這些審查他有沒有填這個利益迴避關係表在這邊跟委員報告我們不會針對個案那我們的原則是剛剛委員也有不是因為我有請你們回覆給我說有沒有填他有沒有填yes or no第一個還是回到就是說利沖法剛剛委員也有提第14條的那幾項裡面沒有包括投資 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
343.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
361.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以我們認為有有有沒有沒有你的報告寫的委員你可以回去再看一下那個法條那個只有說一般補助承攬採購等我就知道你會這樣子說所以就我們來講的話法務部廉政署在不在 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
363.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
386.455 |
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110年3月29號的規定而且在你的報告也寫了你的投資是要受到公會員定義關係迴避法的適用他是投資不是補助所以是適用的我記得我們報告是沒有把投資放進去對這是適用的 原證署你的示函110年3月29號連立至1100501810號函 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
395.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
405.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為國發基金的投資他們可能每一個機關有他們自己本身的政策的一個目的跟一個相關的法令的遵循所以對於說有關國發基金的投資是不是屬於這個立法的規範的部分讓我們尊重他們相關機關的一個認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
422.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
449.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
本來你們剛看這個這個都是你們連證書發給各機關的函啊這是喔你最後再好好思考回答一下喔因為你剛剛的報告有講你們的投資國發會的報告也是啊適用喔沒有我們那個報告裡面投資是不會在不會放在那個立沖法第14條裡面所以只要投資都不用放立沖法 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
450.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
475.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
因為它上面沒有寫啊它只有一般的補助承攬跟採購啊那你就是違反廉政署的含釋解釋請廉政署再回去跟你好好解釋一下這他們的含釋我有去問廉政署我現在講的都不是個案你們都不要跟我扯到個案我現在講的是因為很多人會投資嘛新創事業會去受天使基金的投資所以這些東西都要揭露的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
476.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
492.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
你要讓我們這個審查委員知道我們審查委員審案子是要揭露利益關係的啊對不對 我要簽的啊要有那個表的那個委員這一邊再跟你釐清一下就是說這個你再給我報因為你們的現在回函我那時候請你們回都沒有回給我啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
493.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
518.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
因為我5月26號請你是不是依法事前就說你現在有沒有回覆我啊因為這一個我們有去諮詢律師啦律師說這個我們有跟有跟那個你先告訴我你有沒有回給我沒有嘛沒有啊我們我們在沒有律師就是沒有現在沒有三發屬是到今天早上我剛才拿到密件封 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
521.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
550.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
五月份拿到密件封好不好 廉政署回去再把一些函事再寄給他們 謝謝好 再來回到剛剛這裡喔所以我要的問題都不是個案喔各位都不要跟我講個案我現在不跟你講個案因為就是很多這個東西我們都要遵守一致的規矩那同樣的道理喔你在這一個地方來講的話三發署我剛剛看到你們密件給我的他有沒有填因為你們有那個表格在礦勢智能那裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
553.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
571.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
跟委員報告齁確實在我們立衝法規定之後有些廠商其實是會可能會忘記所以我們在113年6月的時候有那個部裡面這邊齁大概有含知道各行政機關對我說所以他如果沒有填你也不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
573.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
586.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們一般審查是審查會看他的負責人跟計劃執行人員可是那個利害關係的表格是在你們的附件申請裡頭是要通知申請人他要填的啊那他有沒有填 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
589.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
607.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
剛剛跟委員報告是說我們事實上是在很多的廠商會忘記所以我們有在我們後來113年之後的有在提醒就是應該要填的就是每一個案子不是只有這個案子每一個案子都應該要告訴這些申請人是要填的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
608.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
631.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
當然像我們這些投資審查委也都是要填嘛 對不對如果這個東西是有符合利害關係我要迴避的甚至我就不審這一個案子不參與的所以要填的好 為什麼 這規定的這在立法立法規定它可能漏填或幹嘛我也知道你們會用這個理由但是你要補公開就是你要補證公開 不然你會違法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
632.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
651.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
違法的話就是第一個 申請者的責任他要事前揭露他在申請補助交易等等要在文件內據實表明身份沙發水真的是補助嘛再來 機關的責任補助交易行為成立後30天內要連同身份關係要上網主動公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
653.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
671.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你如果沒有揭露或未公開的話廉政署要嘛如果你是申請者的責任就處罰申請人要嘛如果你是機關沒有公開就處罰你機關五萬到十萬並得按次處罰所以所以公務員也要依法行政我是在保護各位喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
672.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
701.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
因為法就寫在這邊 制度就寫在這邊我們就是希望每一個案件都是這樣子來做遵守我覺得這個是對新創者對要投資申請補助的人 他是公平的我也覺得不認同天使基金 國發電的不受利益天愛公協法的規定這個我事後會再跟你們好好的討教這完全是你們覺得不對因為原政署的回函不是這樣子好 再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
703.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
725.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以呢你這一個東西呢你們也回給我說建議由法務部確認因為你也不知道嘛那我就請法務部確認這樣子的案子那中企署也是啊中企署的話就是這一個微如科技的話就是一樣每一個案子都要有再來你們共同的缺失是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
728.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
739.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
就是你要公開揭露 公開揭露的時候請問經濟部有沒有這個公職人員關係人賭注交易等等身份關係公開查詢平台經濟部有沒有國發會有幫你查過了 沒有然後呢 經濟部呢報告委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
759.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
768.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們是每一個案子都有公開平台但是有沒有專區這個我要確認我是不是馬上確認以後跟您報告好 我幫你查過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
769.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
795.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
有些有有些沒有那沒有的話就會連到監察院這一個網站就是在監察院那我有去把它查了一下因為你們都沒有國發會尤其沒有總共我去幫你們查了四年來7508件全國機關全部包含中央地方政府我查四年國發會公開的只有一件游建華前副主委子女依法公開關係法公開經濟部發署公開零件 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
800.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
800.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這這 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
802.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
830.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
可能是真的沒有 可能是真的沒有但是因為你們 我剛剛講法寫在那邊 但是你們沒有照制度執行比如說那個人應該要填的 要告知這些審查委員的比如說這個某某人來申請的時候他是有具有什麼樣的利害關係的你這些都要讓他們填 要提醒他們他如果沒有提醒 那就是你們失職事後還要公開 公開要讓他可以查得到的所以監察院才有這一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
831.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
847.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
可是你們都沒有把他上上去啊我不相信很少啊那我也去查了我們很多立委很多地方政府的機關上都有欸 都有填喔像吳興隆我們本黨的前立委 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
849.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
871.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
他弟弟因為什麼 關西企業承接台灣電力公司 他是星光保全負責 依法揭露甚至我們的楊瓊英委員 因為有些這個 他是昭陽科技大學的董事會的董事 這都有揭露還有很多 我們委員都有揭露 我們委員都很乖耶林佩祥 賴世寶 對不對 他是擔任這個管理協會的理事 都有揭露 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
873.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
881.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
可是為什麼很多案子是沒有揭露的這就是讓我匪夷所思然後地方政府揭露的還比中央部會多這就是法庭在那個地方你制度要去做絕對不是個案也絕對不是政治什麼追殺什麼案件抹黑 沒有我現在全部都跟你講事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
896.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
901.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我也不選舉 我也不幹嘛 我就是等著創新事業的投資發展你們兩個機關經濟部跟國發會這是很大的投資項目的金額跟補助那 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
910.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
935.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所有的申請流程 所有的審核流程我大概我都清楚那我想我們這個審查是都已經是很遵照規定對不對按照你們這些承辦單位給我們要填的甚至我們知道這些人是跟誰是有利害關係的我們會列入考慮但他不是我們確定他獲選或不獲選的依據獲選或不獲選的依據看這個案子的功能優異性跟未來性 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
936.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
954.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
但是但是他一定要公開揭露事後機關要揭露所以我的要求很單純就是這些如果廠商沒有依法揭露這個按照立法第18條第3項要處罰5到50萬如果你們再不去做就是處罰機關聯證署 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
959.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
984.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
要確實去做一下確實做所以第一個我希望廉政署好好進入徹查有沒有哪些該公開而未公開的這個究責是機關還是申請人申請人我們可以請他再補公開因為我覺得這個事情是要揭露的第二個我也要求國發會跟經濟部三個月內完成近五年所有的交易補助跟投資案件的關係人清查 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
985.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
996.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
天使基金我都有寫利害關係法的迴避利益衝突我們都要填審查文要填申請人不用填這也是匪夷所思 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
999.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1015.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我現在都不是在討論個案記得很多新創事業一直跟我complain因為我的社會資本的連結性不夠以至於我可能申請不到案件的補助或投資有失公平我們要消弭這種不公平的現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1017.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1033.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
就這樣子而已其他一點關係都沒有我希望將來各位就依法行事把制度都有 法條都有就是執行率的問題該揭露的就揭露國化會該網站 確診網站 經濟部也是沒有的話你那個連結就擺到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1037.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1055.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
監察院的這個公職員關係平台你就不用自己建也行那申請的時候確實要求他們要填寫有的話就填寫沒有也是在表格上填55555要把這個文件Document下保護各位公務人員以上 謝謝好 謝謝 |