| IVOD_ID |
170106 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170106 |
| 日期 |
2026-06-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-22-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-06-24T10:52:14+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-06-24T11:08:30+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:16 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eeac6239dd17b44604239b4148aa15c27bd878440abaa0e10a35aa3449b62c54c358bed1a557d1e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
葉元之 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:52:14 - 11:08:30 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-06-24T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部政務次長張廖萬堅列席就「校事會議暨教師輔導管教制度與兒少相關權益探討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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主席要慢慢請次長好 有請次長好 次長好 因為我們反覆聽到次長講說你們在那個消失會議的改革之後呢有了初步的成效 |
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那我們來看一下 因為你是跟去年的1到4月來比嘛投訴的案件有下降另外就是投訴的案件被送到消失會議的比例也下降去年同期是82% 現在剩22%今年不受理案件有增加但是也是有一部分的投訴案件進到考核案件但我還是要提醒次長我覺得這樣的數字其實是有一個盲點第一個 |
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64.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
就因為最近大家很重視校事會議這個議題然後很關心老師所以當然在這段期間我覺得爛數一定是會減少啦因為現在是社會關注嘛第二件事情啊這是一個雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題啊就像你沒有開車就不會車禍一樣因為現在的老師都防御式教學嘛不太敢管嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
65.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
81.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
那很多之前的爛數都是因為老師管教學生學生心生不滿嘛用報復的心態去投訴那現在老師不管了不管當然就不會被報復所以投訴案件自然就下降所以我覺得教室會議不能夠以這樣的數據自瞞我覺得還是要有很多可以精進的地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
81.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
110.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那我以下我就針對幾件事情我來跟你討論一下第一我覺得校事會議調查時間實在太久了它的規定是說兩個月然後得延長兩個月最多是四個月可是這只是那個字面上的時間實際上校事會議什麼時候要開始調查以及報告什麼時候寫出來這是沒有一定的時間所以如果學校要拖的話它是可以拖非常久拖到半年一年都有可能那這半年一年就是對老師來說造成極大的煎熬 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
111.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
131.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那我是不能認同人本基金會執行長講的什麼叫做老師就算老師被調查最後即便是爛訴也不會對老師造成任何的傷害所以叫老師不要去影響原本的親師關係這什麼話任何老師被調查越久他受到煎熬是越多即便是最後 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
132.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
155.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
還他清白了 過程當中受到很大的傷害如果老師撐不住 留著停薪啊所以這個時間的部分一定要縮短我不太懂為什麼要拖到這麼長如果調查四個月半年一年都調查不出個結果代表就是沒有事啊是硬要給人家羅之於罪嗎有事就有事 沒事就沒事為什麼要這麼久這個市長這可不可以就時間上 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
157.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
185.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這樣快一點我們可以來檢討啦就來檢討你覺得有需要到那麼久嗎時間上可以來檢討現在那個整個那個兩個月加兩個月的時間你去調查一下為什麼需要這麼久好不好因為如果真的就沒有什麼事有這麼複雜的案件嗎要調查到有的二到四個月然後甚至拖到一年我不認為是這樣第二個可能您去檢討一下好不好盡量縮短第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
186.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
203.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
有可能是因為這個委員嘛都要大家喬彼此開會的時間嘛對不對然後喬來喬去的然後再來就是這個委員當因為這個委員是不是有出席費啊你們搞一個校事會議就我了解好像委員出席費是兩千五嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
204.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
231.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
然後可以開三次嘛對外聘最多開三次嘛對不對寫報告的話一千字是一千一百塊到一千六百塊嘛另外如果還有這個逐字稿的費用聽打每分鐘不知道多少錢嘛那如果是外聘委員是外縣市的話還要提供住宿費、交通費、膳食費所以一場校智會議下來要搞多少錢大概要看情況嘛平均嘛要不要十萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
234.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
250.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
應該是不用了應該是不用了你查一下好不好好幾萬塊一定要費用了所以有沒有可能是因為這個反正我就慢慢來我會開越多我就初期費用可以領越多有沒有可能是這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
251.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
267.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以我的意思是說你去了解一下我認為不需要拖到那麼久然後再一點我看到你們講的分流機制是會先從人才庫裡面挑四個人來召開會議來決定案件要不要進入校事會議那請問一下人才庫裡面到底有哪些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
268.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
291.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這個為什麼不能公開經過訓練的啦有哪些人會公開他大概也有教師有教育人員法律人員 輔導就像譬如說我們行政院工程會他會有一個評審委員的人才庫嘛其實有什麼人大家都知道那為什麼這個校智會議人才庫不能公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
292.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
309.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
還有就是每一次的校事會議到底是哪一些人參與調查或者是寫報告的是誰我覺得可以公開吧案件你可以不用講內容為什麼因為它牽涉到兒童嘛可能不方便去談內容可是哪些人參與我覺得必須要公開啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
309.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
328.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
因為否則的話有一些報告有一些老師很不爽他會把那個報告PO上網大家看到都覺得很離譜啊市長上次應該市長是跟您還是跟哪一位講最後有一個有一個老師被學生捅肛門啊然後對捅完肛門之後然後後來他可能推人的學生吧就被家長 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
329.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
351.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
投訴嘛那投訴之後最後報告的結果是說就是確定學生確實是有揪人去捅他肛門但是老師也不能夠推學生類似這樣那這個報告到底是誰寫的或者是哪些人參與人可以吧內容可以不要公開啦人是誰我覺得讓大家知道一下嘛好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
352.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
367.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
好不好 不然的話有一些委員到底他夠不夠專業或這個委員他有沒有什麼狹隘的角度像我們人本基金會這種仇私的有沒有在這裡面 這可以公開啊好不好 這個也研究一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
369.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
394.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
有公開 每一個會議是誰調查去哪裡查不是調查不是調查人才庫是公開 人才問快嗎但是每一個案件是誰寫的然後哪些人參與調查我覺得這可以公開這也不會有什麼影響然後還有一個剛剛我講了每一個校職會議假設他爛訴國家付出非常多的成本老師也付出很多成本但爛訴的人完全不用付任何的成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
396.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
424.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以這就是變相鼓勵爛訴我聽到太多爛訴都是報復比如說他可能檢舉老師可能兩年前的一個性平案件為什麼忽然間檢舉因為老師可能最近得罪他了他就會去講兩年前他被性平有的時候是報復心態最後可能調查結果是沒事但老師無緣無故接受調查但是那個爛訴的報復的把校士工具校士會議當作報復工具的人完全不用付任何成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
425.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
452.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以這有沒有一個補償機制那這個補償機制是我們現在老師如果比如說他被調查他被停聘了然後後來他利用司法途徑恢復之後我們有修教司法嘛所以他之前應該領的錢是有還給他可是過程當中那種煎熬精神壓力對不對他搞不好去看身心科那請問一下都沒有補償機制嗎那爛數的人他不用付任何成本嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
454.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
479.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個有沒有什麼機制這個是有一些反應我們也在想說要怎麼樣子來處理我們現在就是在講那個老師的那個職業安全衛生法依據那個職業安全法來保障他的那個工作那如果他工作被侵害的時候他會有一些補償或者是有一些司法的一些追訴所以這個部分我們是算你講司法就有誣告罪 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
480.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
502.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
但是校士會議就沒有你這個你也研究一下我盡快 我剛剛講的問題全部因為我是我希望你們的改革有成效所以我才點出我認為不足的地方就是請你們研議好不好對 好不好不過剛才委員提到那個性平案我們校士會是不調查性平案件的那一樣嘛 就爛數不是校士會 但是也是爛數對啦 委員就講的是其他的內容爛數啦好 然後這個再來齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
506.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
524.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我看到你們今天的報告有提到就是說好像你們要比較明確的去定義這個管教的事項不要讓老師變成防禦式教學就變成說好像我這樣做是不是會被投訴合理管教權要保障但是這個次長啊我去看了一下你報告裡面的所謂的辦法全部都舊的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
525.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
552.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
是113年2月的辦法啊對啊我們現在是115年欸你用了一個113年的辦法然後這幾年就是亂七八糟嘛那沒有改變啊這兩年我們也在蒐集啦就是說目前要怎麼樣子去把這個證項譬如說這24條它裡面阻缺違法所以我們現在還要了解宜蘭那個案件我們也在了解說這樣這樣這樣這個我是針對你的報告你的報告的意思是說好像已經要這樣做了可是你沿用的辦法是113年半 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
553.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
577.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們叫加強宣導 但是113年 委員我跟你講其實113年公佈但是事實上很多學校或者說那個現場他也沒有按照這樣做所以我們好幾次發函地方政府希望他們那個能夠 發函沒有用啦對對希望他們能夠依據這樣的辦法因為我們很多個案去檢視說這個不應該罰譬如說宜蘭那個委員所提到那個銅鋼門那個事件我們覺得奇怪這個24條就有啦為什麼他還去罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
580.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
586.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以你的意思是說你現在要開始落實落實24條甚至在23條的正向管教要落實就對了那我來舉幾個例子你今年說1月到4月開始改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
596.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
619.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
但今年三月有一個老師,最近有一個老師跟我反映啦,他是三月發生的事情,他什麼狀況呢?他在跌倒的禮堂,然後滑手機,然後後來就有學生呢,指控他,什麼手機,指控老師給學生看手機裡面他的私密照片,所以呢,學生認為受到性騷擾。那這個狀況是這樣子,就是其實, |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
622.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
644.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
學生指控的是比較久以前的事情但是呢在可能前一段時間老師就有管教學生所以學生呢就去投訴這個事但因為禮堂也沒有監視器所以後來在調查的時候那就都採用學生說法因為兩邊講的不一樣嘛都採用學生說法然後最後事實認定是這樣啦他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
646.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
667.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個被申請調查人已是個老師在學生可見範圍內操作手機卻曾使學生看見其手機涉及裸露身體或者是什麼什麼私密照片然後所以就是性騷擾那老師就說我不知道學生在看啊所以老師在滑手機然後可能學生瞄到還怎麼樣還是不知道都根本不知道啊這樣就直接被認定了 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
668.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
688.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以這個性平法對這個就非常的模糊嘛就是說好像現在只要講性平怎樣都可以認定那我今天比如說市長假設等一下我一張聊天然後你剛好滑手機有人不要說有人啦就可能很多群組啊有些人會傳一些那種照片被我瞄到我就說欸市長你對我性騷擾 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
689.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
701.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
然後我就檢舉你性病委員不會這樣子啦不是啦 我不會啦可是這種狀況老師就委員提的這個個案我們去了解一下啦是太寬鬆了我覺得該保護的要保護可是有點太寬鬆還有一個啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
707.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
736.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那個高雄的一個林老師啊前一段時間被衛生局強勸送醫的這個案件你知道嗎那個在那個嚴老師公祭的前幾天被因為他問說學校最高樓層是幾樓大家擔心他所以就有勸他去送醫你知道他也被檢舉性貧你知道理由是什麼嗎理由是說因為他是個網紅啊所以很多人去他臉書留言其中有一個人留言說某某人身材很好然後他按了讚所以他就被認為有性騷擾或者是違反性貧啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
738.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
766.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
按讚不見的代表是認同吧有時候按讚有些人按讚只是表示說這個謝謝你來留言或者是說我看到了這個這種調查也很多人都覺得是完全不符合現在的事但是他因為這樣子喔那個老師因為被那個校長之前是調查霸凌事件然後他想要轉校結果忽然間又被調查性平調查性平又凍結這個轉校嘛那原因是因為他按了讚 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
767.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
779.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這就太模糊了好不好我覺得我們講這個東西不管是性平也好校事會議也好其實都跟你講的這一條有關嘛太模糊了大家就防疫式教學嘛然後老師現在常常問一個問題啊譬如說署長在睡覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
781.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
810.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
然後假設他是學生那我去叫他起來然後署長就說你碰到我我要告你性貧那老師因為怕他告性貧所以乾脆不叫不叫之後家長就說你為什麼不理我的兒子你是不是故意要冷暴力他又檢舉然後不然呢家長就叫同學去叫同學去叫然後家長就說你為什麼叫同學來叫你是不是刻意叫同學來霸凌我那你覺得這樣現在如果學生在睡覺的話要怎麼叫學生起床 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
812.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
824.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你告訴我你告訴我嘛對啊我想多數老師都知道合理管教的範圍啦多數老師你去調查一下多數老師知不知道好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
825.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
849.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
你去我剛剛問的問題你可以問一下多數老師知不知道現在教學狀況怎麼處理委員提的問題是都是比較特例啦沒有特例喔也沒有特例這個就是大家說哇如果這樣子發展下去就是這樣所以真的要把它明確化我們也是在努力啦就是說只要是合理管教學要把它明確化因為我剛剛舉的不是特例就是個案啊我們會保障他在這方面不受到追究欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
850.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
874.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
然後就要明確啦 好不好然後最後啊 我跟你請教一下因為現在行政院有推一個第五級保全嘛他是鼓勵退休軍警嘛 到學校那其實我支持他的方向因為他們有看到校園裡面日益複雜的校安問題比如說毒品啊 惡霸這種的就是針對毒品的事情毒品或惡霸這種嘛那他為什麼鼓勵退休軍警因為他們之前受過訓練那 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
876.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
903.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我覺得我有一些大家有擔心的點是說如果由軍警直接進來是不是學校變成被執法對我知道我的意思是說既然因為這也是我之前長期爭取的書長應該也知道國中的校安人員是有一個創新能力但是六十班才一個以前我們一直講不夠現在國中其實非常複雜要增加要增加然後行政院有注意到現在人力不夠他才會想到第五級保全 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
904.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
930.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以趁這個機會請教育部去跟行政院爭取預算你說那不然這樣子是不是教育部可以就是行政院可以給教育部預算讓教育部可以讓國中可以增聘校安人員而校安人員鼓勵軍警來擔任因為他看到問題了嘛那我們現在人力不足問題只是說用什麼方式進來校園協助那如果是校安人員我非常支持因為校安人員是配合學校在做學生的 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
932.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
953.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
輔導 工作然後他第一線也可以面對複雜的比如說幫派問題 毒品問題所以這個方向請次長 你爭取一下好不好如果第五級保全大家疑慮那麼大的話你直接增加國中校園員我也知道嘛 我也爭取過我們從114學年度開始就開始一位啊 我知道啊對 國中的 對創新人力 這不夠嘛因為這個都討論過啦因為高中又 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
958.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
976.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
主点会再增加2592个专任辅导教师跟专业辅导人员不够校安人员不一样好不好反正行政院有提了嘛你去争比如说第五级保全如果大家自爱难行无法推你去争取校安人员这个比较实际谢谢好 谢谢好 谢谢叶元志委员的支持 |