| IVOD_ID |
170012 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170012 |
| 日期 |
2026-06-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-19-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-06-17T09:47:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-06-17T10:04:15+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d79496a9ef369d5f38aae6440224d5246bbd52fc739e044706bfb484b39de0604b5c6e5116a466015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
洪毓祥 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:47:46 - 10:04:15 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-06-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管 ：經濟作業基金、水資源作業基金、經濟特別收入基金及核能發電後端營運基金。(詢答)
【所列預算提案於115年6月25日(星期四)下午5時截止收件】
【6月17日及6月18日二天一次會】） |
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接下來我們請洪義祥召委請做巡檔主席好接下來我們請工部長我們請工部長我們再請一下楊志清局長召委早安好楊局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
27.403 |
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46.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我想先就剛剛 因為我高雄人所以我剛剛對賴瑞恩委員這樣子講什麼預算這些我是不以為然我問一下大林埔的千春計畫行政院何時核定最早是在108年的10月8日2019年10月8日對過了幾年過了7年所以跟今年預算一點關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
56.26 |
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82.867 |
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我不能說完全沒關係啦 要走就走因為中間一直在跟地方政府對啊 那對於2007年紅毛黨的遷春課要開始嘛到2014年的高雄氣爆嘛 我也是很在乎啊所以那時候大林普遷春那時候才在吵的嘛才是有一個爭議啦所以我是說 我給你們預算其實就是先要好好做嘛而不是到要選舉的時候才會在講說我要遷春啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
83.803 |
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108.415 |
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我的意思是這樣而已,好啦不用解釋,我只是告訴你整個時序啦我昨天晚上聽到大林埔遷村說到這麼久啊我的意思就這樣子而已,所以我剛剛是隱忍未發謝謝,因為居民有說要先處理好遷村再來做園區的設置啦所以對嘛,我是說遷村就很久了2019年我就遷到7年,我再給你預算我遷10年搞不好也遷不完 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
108.575 |
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136.462 |
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因為千春中間要達到共識啦所以有辦了五場的千春說明會謝謝委員對啦 我也都澄清一下而已啊它不是今年才發生也不是去年才發生啦對不對 我說了 我怎麼知道好 來 謝謝啦謝謝局長來 請回那接下來的話我們針對今天的這個預算主要的話呢是在這裡頭來講的話整個我們這個是經濟部所屬的一個基金那我大概是針對 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
138.075 |
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163.673 |
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再生能源發展基金、能源研究發展基金跟石油基金還有一些水資源的作業基金主要因為時間有限所以我大概就這幾個指標案件來看這整個結構性的問題像我們最近生物案股票下市股民也是損失慘重郭豪強講一句話這個案子叫做小孩子玩大車 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
165.08 |
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191.513 |
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也就是說當初這邊的評估事後的回收效益等等其實超越它的一個工程上的一個風險那另外在烏山頭水庫這個案子的話它比較就是說在水庫這裡頭設了光電板當然這個影響到我們的公共水域用飲水的安全然後當水庫乾枯之後這光電面板頂底那個會卡然後拿出來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
192.694 |
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208.235 |
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都是大陸的年輕人所以這個地方來講就是牽扯到非紅供應鏈的問題然後最近炒得沸沸揚揚300坪清潔爛的屋頂的光電一堆民間都在反映這是什麼樣子的爛東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
209.797 |
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229.856 |
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那當然這個東西他們關心的居民關心的消費者關心就是你這個房價轉價的問題將來消防安全失火的一些問題颱風風險吹落的問題那我是覺得啦政府那麼多的一些房屋建設先帶頭示範中興新村也很多 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
231.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
248.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這東西現在都閒置的我們政府機關這些官社上面有一點我覺得大致可以先做公有屋頂都大致上按照這個進度 百分之百嗎沒有嘛 還沒有嘛所以我是說應該要去做另外也要請經濟部產發署去研究一下因為現在你說不管是氣蓋礦他現在也不見得要鋪這種水平的他鋪垂直的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
252.608 |
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280.407 |
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對不對用在玻璃塗層那都可以就是我們新技術出來可以讓你再生能源的這些發電的效果可能會更好可能覺得更美觀也更安全穿透性也好我想這個技術上大家都知道的事情那這也可以往下去走那我們從這幾個牽扯到的東西就是政府我是把它歸納成幾個失能失靈失責失控失序 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
281.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
301.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以在這個地方的話我們先來看第一個我們每次這是結構性的問題常常我們在做一大堆的案子的時候像這個生威案那也許經濟部會說這是台電對不對風力發電那台電說這個就是承包商按照合約這樣子來得到這個風場這樣來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
303.593 |
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330.596 |
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那能源署可能會說這是因應我們要這一個風電國產化數位轉型希望能夠有更好的外銷就在當時這個案子裡頭賦予了能源的發電國產化的目標然後呢這個基本上我們希望說台灣再來做但是現在我的問題是說如果整個現在這樣的失敗延宕或者是發電向來不如預期的時候到底我們是誰要負責經濟部嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
332.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
360.664 |
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報告委員我想這個個案來講的話當初招標他得到標那有了合約就按照合約來走那我們經濟部最重要的就是說他可以在時辰裡面這個離岸風電把它做起來那可以順利的發電這個就是我們的目標那我們希望這可以達到至於中間的這些這個承包的一些過程那就按照合約合約該怎麼做我們就怎麼尊重他 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
361.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
383.839 |
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最重要還是說 今年要把這個風機把它裝設完然後可以順利發電 這個就是我們最重要的任務好 明白 我意思說這個問題 比如說再拿一個烏山頭的水庫經濟部可能管水質安全嘛 對不對 水庫的管理 台電是管購電等等但是如果這些光電板的裝設 飛鴻供應鏈這是誰要查 經濟部查 台電查 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
391.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
417.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
跟委員報告一下那個基本上那個水質的部分都符合那個就是水質水庫我們現在不是關於水質水庫我們現在是說水質水庫是大家要管嘛飛鴻的部分啊飛鴻的部分它基本上你管還是台電管應該講它進口的時候它只要在我們那個我們有一個有一個資源性的一個標準裡面的都可以符合都可以裝 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
419.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
431.539 |
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好你看還是沒回答我問題我雖然懶得逼你反正大家都在聽嘛我的問題都很簡單就是到底誰負責就這樣就好就是我們在做很多案子都是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
433.12 |
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457.955 |
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再來這個我是覺得就是整個能源結構政策的一個失敗所以基本上來講當我們這邊的話呢希望當時再生能源能夠去供應這些的缺口不管是這個核電停下來的這個缺口那也希望降低我們的燃煤火力發電但是我們發現現在的狀況因為再生能源的這個達標的比例很差嘛今年大概我們估大概多少13 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
460.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
469.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
去年是13去年是13今年预估今年应该会增加因为离岸风力增加很多离岸风力增加很多增加很多是增加13.5.8.7.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
475.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
499.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
現在因為數字分子跟分母都在變動當中所以現在很難講一個很明顯的數字實在是不曉得要怎麼問你叫分子分母都在變動當中那你乾脆寫90%好了好不好反正分子分母都可以調這很奇怪啊哪有人做這種預估是這個樣子對因為他的這個整年的這個用電狀況發電量 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
502.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
519.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
是在變動我們綠電的的確是在增加當中剛剛同仁講說出估應該可以超過15綠電的增加我當然是同意但是你綠電的增加我哪增加一度我的成本假設是要10塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
522.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
546.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
結果是賣的更多還是賣的更少等等就是說到底他撫撫撫的CP值報委員現在很多的綠電基本上他就轉來職工了實際上台電不是透過台電來買賣的因為他們發現就是賣給這些廠商事實上是在價格上是比較優惠的所以他們基本上都採用職工的方式尤其是離岸風電的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
548.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
576.691 |
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我想是整個再生能源的政策可能都要去看一下再來第三個我在看的時候就是說這很多因為牽扯到這裡頭就是說我剛剛講的能源發展基金研究基金石油基金這些等等像這些東西的話我都覺得它是不是會變成是政策的一個補助的全包你知道為什麼嗎比如說像我們石油基金的一個目的來講它就是穩定石油供應維護油品的一個市場秩序在這當中有一些替代能源的研究根據它的法條 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
577.512 |
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595.946 |
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但是這個資金來講的話你今天是剩下9.44億然後我們這當中可能還要補助你家電是要效率升級這也就算了 家屋頂太陽光電 科技儲能就是說到底這些支出跟我們基金當初設置的用途合不合符不符合 文對體嗎 還是文不對體 |
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598.861 |
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619.703 |
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因為這個部分石油基金他本來的任務就有包括這些了那最主要我想您這邊資料也看出來主要還是在就是怎麼樣這個節能加電的部分那這個省電的部分節電的部分的推廣那個是我們最大的這個支出所以這個還是符合當初石油基金的目的 |
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621.644 |
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638.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
對因為我覺得石油基因看起來就是穩定石油供應啊比如說這個和姆治海峽封鎖等等對不對我們要從這邊去補助你的購電或者是我們整個這一個汽油的這一個補貼等等是不是應該從這邊來那現在的感覺是好像很多科目用途都不對 |
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640.146 |
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658.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
因為我們的這個發電基本上過去來講也是依賴外來的能源那這個部分尤其是現在是天然氣是非常多因為我想到以前我們在審柯這張計畫的時候委員常常會問我們就是說你這個計畫內容跟你的名稱到底有沒有符合我們剛剛一看起來就覺得很不符合 |
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659.449 |
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687.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
再來的話另外就是像這個烏山頭的水資源作業基金這裡頭也跟他這個基金也是有關係因為我們在這個運算所裡頭也看到他期末的現金大概會降到8.92億那場地的收益費大概可能不到500萬可是我們在這個水庫鋪光電板之後發生設備損壞水質異常拆除復原地方尤其是這個對應設備拆卸的跟災損復原的成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
688.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
713.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這個是水庫要去負責我們水利署要去負責還是最後是整個是我們基金全民承擔就是應該是跟廠商去收的錢去做這樣子的是可以cover這些回收的如果不夠cover是變成是我們全民跟這個基金要來承擔是這樣子嗎 署長 水利署署長水池監測應該是所有的水庫我們都會做的事情 |
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715.141 |
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720.343 |
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那光電板鋪設這個壞了維修要廢棄維修那是誰的事廠商要自己負責如果他沒負責你會怎樣按照合約來看 |
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731.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
757.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
合約 你現在有罰錢 烏山頭水庫那一個還有丹納斯台風嘉義那邊14萬片的那個報告委員 烏山頭水庫的它並不屬於我們水資源作業基金的範疇它是由農田水利署擔任者它是它主管的一個水庫所以它烏山頭水庫不是我們水利署這個水資源作業基金的範疇向下也是 |
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758.632 |
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778.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那我的意思是說像類似這種東西的話呢可能就是在政府這裡頭就是說將來我們在做這個再生能源的時候這些後續的維修服務這個設備成本這些東西都要清楚啊好不好因為我想你水質的監控會有那想說光電板鋪了之後那這些污染的話你還是要跟廠商去做求廠啊 |
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779.432 |
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806.51 |
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那當然那當然不過因為剛剛提到因為烏山頭水庫主要是這個農田灌溉使用所以是變成是農業部在主管對 我說舉例類似的一個狀況的話你的水質監控還是你嘛水質監控當然就是如果要進來自來水的話就是我們要監控那烏山頭有進到我們的自來水嗎大部分都是農田在灌溉用有一部分有一部分也是有啊有啊 那個部分是那個部分是我們會監控 |
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808.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
827.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好那我覺得啦這個東西將來你在做這些再生能源基金的管控的時候在回收這裡頭我想要再問一下像我們這個光電板的話照道理經濟部應該都設有比如說物聯網的裝置啊或者是去做監控那你們現在這些的光電面板的一些回收管理機制的平台有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
829.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
847.13 |
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我們有要求業者有那個繳交回收費那不是 我說你的管理平台你可不可以掌握到每一個光電面板的這樣子的一個裝設地點裝設地點我們序號都有就是應該登記的時候我們都有那個序號那你後面有沒有平台去追蹤它 |
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848.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
859.819 |
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如果他後續就是運作要回收的時候要最終要處置的時候 那個部分我們都有可是我說你的系統平台有沒有有沒有這個可追蹤的平台 管理的平台 有沒有我們有這個平台有確定喔確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
865.819 |
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892.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
再來我覺得這個東西可能經濟部最後要再去看一下的話就是說整個這個因為我現在對於這個再生能源現在對我們全民的印象是這樣就是光電面板進到我們的傳統的漁場、水庫、山坡地、農地、漁園其實這個對我們全民的觀感根本不是很好那發電的效益又差然後台電的這個賭購的成本又貴 |
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893.923 |
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902.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以我覺得這個事情哪裡還要在我們家這個新的建宅類似這樣子就是新的住宅300平方米在裝設光碟面板 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
903.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
924.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
發電效益應該是不錯,我們現在只要是白天中午的話透過太陽光電的話,這個發電是非常好大家知道啊,尖峰的時候,發電當然很好啊太陽下山晚上就不行了啊那那個部分我們有其他的這個因應的措施嘛我現在講的是說,整個這個東西如果我們就是 |
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925.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
939.875 |
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在政策上總檢討如果我們是承認失敗的它是一個bug我們就把它fix甚至就是remove它全世界再生能源都有一直在這樣發展當中全世界太陽能面板也是在發展然後遙控電也是在發展 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
943.499 |
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963.828 |
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對 但是我們就覺得我們台灣的這個管理的措施跟這個東西是很糟糕的我希望是可以好好再做妥善我們沒有阻止再生能力發展但是是不是有新的模型強化的這個管理機制然後將來出事救者的單位是有肩膀一肩扛起所有的改善機制我們都樂於聆聽跟來做處理啦 |
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984.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
但是事實上比如像離岸風電韓國人還非常羨慕我們做得非常好他們已經延宕了那麼多年但是我們已經500次的這個風機都已經發電而且非常順利我不曉得怎麼comment我們等事實結果出來再說好了好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝黃昌偉 |