| IVOD_ID |
169936 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/169936 |
| 日期 |
2026-06-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-36-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-06-10T11:34:37+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-06-10T11:48:56+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:19 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dee24285c0428ea5057edc5e30a022b502c75a4b042dc3678c63d91a868a86b12bfe832c71c1a02f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
范雲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:34:37 - 11:48:56 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-06-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查
（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案」案。
（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案」案。
【6月10日會議僅進行詢答】
【6月10日及11日兩天一次會】） |
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謝謝昭偉 有請張秋元富人市長富人市長您好我想請問您過去幾年內軍公教調薪的次數跟幅度是多少您可以簡單告訴我們嗎過去十年內好了 |
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過去十年內我們從107條3%111條4%113條4%114條3%那如果累進的話應該是名目上是14%累進的話應該會到14.7% |
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14.7%是過去這樣算是十年內嗎?對,對,十年內那因為這個是民進黨執政的這幾年內嘛調了14.7%照這樣講對不對那之前馬總統執政那八年調了幾%可以告訴大家嗎?就是只有100年之後調過3% |
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所以只有調過3%是一次 對那我想你講話這個都要有數據啦就馬總統執政那8年就是為軍公教是公教還是軍公教 |
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軍公教軍公教就是3%的調薪那民進黨執政的這10年調了14點幾%這樣講沒錯吧是所以我想其實民進黨政府過去大家都好像覺得他對軍公教不好可是從調薪這件事情上是非常的正面這樣沒錯吧我們其實是積極在處理 |
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好有積極在處理那肯定你們那可以依照目前的做法對不對就是是誰在決定有哪些機制有誰參與可以告訴大家嗎目前就是有我們有一個這個待遇調整的這個審議委員會那他的這個 |
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就是他的成員包括軍公教的主管 軍公教勞工的主管還有國發會還有財主然後還有地方政府然後還有學者專家 |
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所以目前有學者專家 有地方政府代表然後有軍公教的這些單位的主管機關譬如說國防部、全區部、教育部然後也有學者專家幾人所以其實目前有一個機制那您覺得這是我們看到這個設置要點的您覺得現行的審議委員會的組成到底代表性足不足夠 |
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我們現在在推法治化的過程裡面我們是我們也認為可以把這個公教團體的代表基層代表可以納進來委員會裡面所以你們支持可以納入軍公教的基層代表我們是朝這個方向來處理因為目前比較是主管機關譬如說國防部教育部這是主管機關那比較沒有就是基層的代表所以你們同意對不對 |
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我們的草案是往這個方向規劃的確是教育部代表跟教師代表基層教師公會的意見很可能是有衝突的向蔣沒錯所以我其實也肯定你們教育部還是教育部如果以我以前在教育部服務我們在教育現場其實是一體的所以我們會都希望整個領域好了解啦 |
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那但是因為我們長期在監督教育部然後也為教師爭取薪資的提升因為全球其實教師都遇到這個問題教育部如果比較難過的時候應該是資源的爭取的時候因為教育部他畢竟要尊重你們人種的意見我們人種其實也很努力所以我也幫教育部跟你們人種爭取我們教師要有增加平衡因為現在的年輕世代跟數位時代 |
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282.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
真的比較難就是大家的青少年主體性越來越高教師的負擔真的增高了所以薪水增加跟人數要增加這個部分都是我們爭取的所以我們知道教育部相對來講他必須要體恤你們的看法有有 上次委員詢問的我們美德光跟教育部一起處理其實我們原本對他們學校是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
283.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
297.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那我想合理來講的話就是不管是立委或者是基層教師公會當然可以就是爭取就是基層公務員跟教師的權益更大聲啦這樣講沒錯所以我其實是要肯定你們啦我看你們的工商時報人總有講到會議要納入基層代表是 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
304.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
319.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我覺得這是一個很好的表示雖然民進黨執政這些年為軍公教調薪14點多趴遠高於前面的國民黨執政那8年但是我覺得就是都是可以越改善越好的我們希望越來越好 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
320.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
345.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那所以肯定人總回應就是說會議將納入基層代表那我現在想要請你們專業表達意見納入基層代表到底是怎麼個納入法我研究了一下民眾黨團的版本跟我們翁小玲召委的版本這裡面都有民眾黨版本是公務人員代表一人教師代表一人可是沒有軍人代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
345.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
366.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那翁曉琳委員的版本是人數更多因為他是25人民眾黨版19人所以他是三個公務員代表三個教師代表軍人代表三人那您覺得應該要怎麼樣納入基層的方式更理想呢因為剛剛聽起來您覺得軍人不適合放在裡面嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
366.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
390.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們目前的意見是這樣因為我們也看了其他國家因為軍人他的身份特性比較特別他是保衛國家的有一個比較高強度我們當然軍人聲譽也要放在裡面所以現在目前是規劃國防部來代表以過去的調心軍人我們絕對會優先去考量他 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
391.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
412.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
對 以我們看到的是這樣子就是絕對不會也不能夠就是不管朝野其實對這一塊其實都很關心所以你們認為軍人是分開處理比較好對 我們讓國防部來代表軍人那就人數上民眾黨版這個是各一人翁小林委員的版本各三人您有沒有覺得哪一種比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
414.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
440.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我想我們尊重各委員的提案到時候勤政院版進來以後可以大家一起討論了解 因為我們的了解就是教師代表其實就好幾個不同的工會 不同的團體那這部分你們有正在研商中那我想請問你 因為剛剛講的是那個委員會那薪資調整的依據就是民眾黨版的沒有寫 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
441.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
459.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
他是說要參考這些勞動生產力勞工平均薪資國家經濟狀況然後等等然後可是翁曉琳委員的版本比較有一點相對比較硬性的指標譬如飄增比率不得低於消費者物價指數累積成長率之二分之一我是覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
460.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
482.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
還好啦可能還有人覺得就是說這樣到底足不足夠那他有提到消費者物價指數打3%的時候一定要給予調整那我請助理幫我找出最低工資法因為我們有一個最低工資法是有一個機制的來做一個比較那依照人種的專業界見解你覺得怎麼樣的做法更妥適呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
483.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
512.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
就這個指數的部分怎麼個條法應該怎麼參考是翁曉琳委員辦還是民眾黨辦還是最低工資法這邊參酌的這個指數跟委員報告其實目前在台灣我們參考的指數這個範圍是大的當然是在台灣我們大概會比較聚焦在消費者的物價指數的就是實質購買力的部分比較受 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
513.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
533.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
比較受到一些討論關注我們也參考了GDP經濟成長率也會參考美人的平均國民所得然後也會民間企業的薪資水準然後還有我們的財政狀況做一個綜合性的考量那我覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
534.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
562.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
指標的部分因為各國的指標也不太一樣譬如說剛剛張艾亞林委員其實也有提就是在日本其實他是用民間薪資因為日本大概跟民間的對接是比較密的然後在台灣其實我們過去的討論都一直會比較專注在實質購買率上面其實這些指標其實都有可能是好的指標我們院板進來以後大家一起來 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
563.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
589.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那我想看起來你們還就是這部分有你們的想法但是目前還沒辦法揭露那另外有一個關鍵的部分也想請問您因為到底這個審議委員會說了算還是行政院有沒有一個商議權民眾黨團的版本我看到的是還有一個最後最終決定是立法院審查那如果行政院不核定的時候他又是再回去開審議會 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
591.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
612.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那國民黨團的翁曉林委員的版本是行政院不得調整變更除非國家有財政重大困難那這部分差異很大因為民眾黨團的版本還要來立法院最後審查那翁曉林委員的版本幾乎是這個審議委員會說了算那您認為應該要怎麼處理比較好 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
616.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
629.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
跟委員報告我們都尊重各委員的提案那在院版的部分我早上提了也收集了很多其他國家的做法像美日韓這幾個在國際上比較被討論的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
634.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
651.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
美日韓其實都是有一個專者的機構他會負責這些相關的指標的一些這個收集跟評估然後在提出之前也會讓這個公教團體有他表達意見的機會那最後在 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
657.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
676.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
但是最後的這個決策權因為主政的部門其實他本來就是受全民的附託他必須要對國家總資源的分配他必須要負責這個責任所以現在先進國家也都是到最後必須要由主政者去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
676.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
686.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所以你說先進民主國家是會尤其是政治負責像美國有時候條新的監議也會請總統去決定日本也會給國會跟內閣去做監議有些國家是給行政權決定有些國家是國會跟內閣是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
695.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
714.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
因為內閣制的內閣就是國會我們國家其實也會到國會只是這個階段不同就是在這個決策要不要調新之前是在行政院做決定行政院決定以後他就必須要並總預算編入總預算送到國會來 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
717.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
730.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那國會通過以後送給總統公佈那這樣的條件案才會生效所以其實我們也是要到國會我自己是看了覺得民眾黨團的版本會有一個迴旋 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
732.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
752.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
因為他是說如果行政院不核定的時候再開審議會那就沒有再寫後面怎麼樣了有可能會陷入一個無止境的迴旋所以我覺得這個設計非常的重要那請問任總你們現在這個草案預計的時程是什麼因為我看到說你們已經正在送行政院的院會是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
754.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
766.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
對這個朝野委員的對這個案子的關心我們有跟行政報告行政也很慎重在討論這個那我們希望盡快送過來 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
767.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
791.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那我是相信行政院的版本不會虧待軍公教啦因為從你們的行為過去就是14%的薪資的漲幅那當然就是說如果能夠制度化從你們目前的行政命令進一步法治化我相信你們就是說也會謹慎考慮那我本來是要請你參著民主國家的公務員調心公式跟決策機制那您剛說你們已經在參考美日韓嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
792.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
797.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那美日韓是不是可以至少給我們一個書面報告好嗎盡快 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
799.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
828.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
多久之內可以給我們因為我想我們到時候委員會審議的時候一個月好不好一個月那盡快因為你們已經研究了可不可以兩個禮拜啊我擔心那個翁委員這邊會不會速審啊我是希望可以等你們行政院的版本我們是希望翁委員這邊可以等我們行政院的版本因為我看到民眾反反我是相信這個設計等一下萬一等一下進步二讀快速選會的話這個可能會造成就是無法預測的影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
830.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
855.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
你們的書面資料可以給我們嗎?兩週可以嗎?早一點給我們,讓大家謹慎考慮因為我是從你們的行為相信條新的部分不會虧待軍公教那但事均說,既然要討論這個版本謹慎好好的設計非常的重要,好不好?那預計期程現在沒辦法告訴我們是不是?我們在努力,我們已經就密集在討論這個議題好,謝謝好,謝謝委員 |