| IVOD_ID |
169669 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/169669 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-36-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
15 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-28T09:42:39+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-28T10:03:06+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:27 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/89665fc2cee9c367007468bb7fe90756486a38586931bd155064cfc36d565837a50e264968218f985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
沈發惠 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:42:39 - 10:03:06 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-28T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：審查115年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分。
【預算提案於5月26日中午12時截止收件】
【5月25日、27日及28日三天一次會】） |
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發會委員發言好 主席我們請周秘書長好 齊秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
20.089 |
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秘書長早,好久不見了今天我看剛剛前面的委員有針對國會擴建簽件的進度跟未來的規劃有請教我們秘書長,秘書長也講得蠻清楚的另外我們有關於議事空間的運用的這些規定也應該我等一下如果請問秘書長應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
48.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
70.548 |
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可以就這個我們的意識空間的運用還有尤其是我等一下特別針對因為今天預算審查針對資訊安全的部分來請教秘書長這樣可以嗎可以喔可以那如果說如果秘書長覺得可以那在這個4月2號的時候我們本委員會召開了一個國會擴建簽件之進度及未來規劃影響的專題報告那時候秘書長為什麼不來 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
75.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
102.808 |
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當時的這一位在當時的一個情況的空間啦實際上不是為了這一個擴建的問題當時如果回溯當時那本委員會是希望是邀請因為當時的情況各位理解回溯當時的情境啦當然在頭一次的裡面因為有各種因素存在嘛所以後來我就秉持院長的對立法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
103.328 |
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126.221 |
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秘書長來講我們司法委員會邀請秘書長來做針對國會簽件的這個報告結果秘書長不來那我現在大家在這邊問你也是這個國會簽件最後還是要問你啊這樣說明啦4月28號我們的主題是意識空間運用現況及未來治理規劃國會數位化及資安專題報告秘書長又不來也沒有請假 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
133.018 |
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154.799 |
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那你們是發新聞稿,你那時候發了一個新聞稿說這個議程逾越法定範疇我都不曉得這個國會的治安跟國會數位化哪裡逾越了法定的範疇,那我等一下要怎麼質詢你啊我等一下有關資訊安全的部分怎麼質詢你因為你說你們發新聞稿說議程逾越法定範疇 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
158.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
185.845 |
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因為委員是學法律的啦對於國衛因為你81年就到立法院來如果在又舊法延法吧如果當時的情況我81年就在立法院我知道因為你當在縣委員那邊當辦公室主任嘛你81年來所以對於國衛的整體運作不陌生啦我只能這樣說明那這一個裡面在無法再修的時候過程當中啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
187.146 |
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207.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這有對於專案報告他一定是由院會加護來的因為國務院主持法第二條裡面的明定非常清楚那因為這一個環境上的一個如果是說我很容易比如說舉例來講我很容易來報告但當時那個環境的情形這個不只這兩次啦現在4月30、5月1號我理解四次拒絕拒絕本委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
214.148 |
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218.39 |
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邀請你到本委會,但是我們那時候還提案譴責了秘書長我今天提這個不是說要算老帳,不能傳過純粹罪無分那時候耍賴不來,現在來了就拜託預算過,然後就來 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
234.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
251.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
總是要跟委員會表示一下說抱歉那時候是不是我被貴委員會譴責了那我來這裡表示一下說很抱歉這個那時候是不是我基於你剛剛講的基於當時的政治局勢基於什麼所以那時候沒有來很抱歉 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
253.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
280.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我可不可以給我一分鐘說明我想不用啦 我看你有沒有要道歉不是 因為我要這樣說明我剩下兩分鐘 除非主席可以說給我延長時間 不然我就沒問題 我可以給省委員延長時間 是我跟你講啦 這個是第一個啦那我現在再請問你啦齁這個剛才這個秘書長有回答說這個有關行政院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
281.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
307.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
不附屬總統的命令你說現在卓榮泰院長是第一個是吧不附屬是第一個不附屬是第一個那1990年1990年李登輝總統提名蔣仲林擔任參軍長郝柏村行政院長拒絕附屬這是第0個囉那不是這是第0個啦那個沒有那個不是在附屬問題這個是第0個沒有附屬問題因為這個在前置作為而已根本他沒提出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
307.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
325.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
他不附屬嗎?他那時候就是拒絕附屬所以拒絕附屬的第一個不是卓榮泰啦第一個不是卓榮泰 這個要講清楚這個我要澄清那個當時的蔣仲敏那個案件跟這個完全無關不太相同不太相同啦 但是他還是拒絕附屬的郝柏臻是明確的拒絕附屬這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
329.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
348.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
現在言歸正傳,言歸我們預算的這個立法院的預算我看我們這個立法院預算,我仔細看我們這個有關資訊管理的業務因為我剛剛講到資通安全,上次我們辦專案會議你拒絕來所以我今天特別只好利用這個預算的審查來問你有關於立法院資通安全的相關問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
350.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
365.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那我在預算裡面看到我們今年的這個編列的這個資訊管理業務齁總共經費是兩億一千三百六十萬五千元齁這是所有的這個資訊管理業務啦那我就從你們資訊管理業務裡面來找說你們有關做資通安全的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
366.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
394.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
的這個預算有多少啦齁那我找到這三三你們在你們計畫裡面齁你們計畫說明裡面找到三三個啦齁一個是大型主機的這個這個及相關的硬體齁資訊防的這些資訊系統資源應用系統是回覆費齁這個叫資通安全經費這裡有有這個四千欸有四四百萬啦齁有四百萬然後這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
396.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
411.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第二個是第四項的這個資安監控網路管理這裡的預算有一千八百萬一千八百萬再來是第八點有關我就就是說你們有提到說這個是屬資通安全費用經費的再來就第八項是資安防護電腦設備 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
413.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
426.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
有這個兩千五百三十三萬整個加起來也就是說你們的兩億一千三百六十萬裡面你們有關於這個資通安全的經費齁你們我這樣子抓到的是四千八百五十二萬兩千對不對是不是這樣我們編列的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
429.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
455.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
因為要這樣跟市委員報告因為你這方面非常專家大概一般我只是看預算書而已我知道因為你老太太在資訊方面也是當過主任所以非常清楚這一塊裡面大概他的編制裡面因為我們資安長是由副部長來監的所以市北所有多處的會議大概都有副部長來主政副部長在旁邊我請他們答問一下副部長來 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
461.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
468.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
就我所知啦我們目前立法院的這個資通安全管理我們是依照什麼樣的辦法在管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
470.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
494.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
報告委員我們這邊的管理資安事件的部分有三個主要的法律依據一個是資通安全管理法一個是管理法的制定細則不是法律我是說我們立法院立法院本身就依據法律要授權我們立法院要訂立立法院的規則我們的法尊全部都依照我們那個書發部的那個相關的法我們立法院應該有立法院自己的規則有有有我們那個文件的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
495.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
522.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
叫做立法院資通安全管理要點對我就告訴你看你還要再翻我就告訴你我們立法院是按照我們內部規則是立法院資通安全管理要點那立法院資通管理要點在今年的1月有做了修正這個你知道嗎對我知道你知道嗎過去舊的辦法是在2023年制定的那今年1月我們有做了一個修訂修正了哪裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
523.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
550.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
修正那個整併的部分把他的相關的那個個資資安這個部分來做整併對大致上是說是整併啦就是說原本的這個資通安全管理要點第五點裡面有關資通安全組織的部分那時候規定要設三個小組啦那時候有一個要設這個這個資通安全除了資通安全長以外要設資通安全的集合小組這是第一個小組第二個是資通安全工作小組 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
551.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
573.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
第三個是個人資料管理小組那時候按照第五點那我們修改之後的第五點是說本院資通安全及個人資料保護我們設資通安全及個人資料保護管理委員會我們設置一個管理委員會然後把這個三個小組納在這個管理委員會之下是不是這樣是不是這樣好那這個按照這個要點我們這個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
584.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
603.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
原來的三個小組第一個小組我講說有關這個資通安全工作小組這個是由誰組成的那個由資訊處來組成資訊處本院各一級單位副秘書長你恐怕還不熟要不然你再站到旁邊你站到副秘書長旁邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
606.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
618.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你們這個真的是對知通安全真的是很不熟我們現在有關我們的知通安全知通安全工作小組是由誰組成 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
620.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
643.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
報告委員我們目前的話上面是委員會嘛下面公共小組我剛講這個公共小組那公共小組是因為社區全員的工作所以是資訊處當主要的幕僚啊不就會找各單位來共同來主宰基本上就是我們立法院各一席單位對不對其實是各一席單位不是我們資訊處在當啦我們資訊處只是幕僚單位是各一席單位都要派一個人至少派一個人而且是科長以上 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
644.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
661.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
科長以上然後另外指派一個資通安全維護人員專業人員對不對是這樣組成的嗎我們剛剛三個小組裡面第三個小組集合小組的任務編組集合小組以前不是這樣但是我們修改之後我們集合小組有誰來辦理 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
665.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
675.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
有誰來編組他改變成任務編組了對不對現在我們的集合小組成為是變成任務編組任務編組什麼意思有事情才編組 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
676.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
701.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
是不是跟委員報告因為以前的話我們的集合作業的話大部分就只有資訊處因為基於資安非常重要所以我們今年修法裡面的話我們還沒修法之前就有集合小組了舊的就有集合小組了以前集合的話我們是沒有集合各單位其他單位就是比如說我剛剛講112年訂定的這個資通安全管理要點在今年修正以前他這三個小組裡面就有集合小組了 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
703.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
722.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
沒有研究嗎以前的話就只集資訊處而已啦資訊處自己你們這裡按照這個規定先修法以後的話不是 修法前先不要問原來過去三年我們的集合小組只集合資訊處喔我們有委外委外跟我們來集合我們來來來我們回味 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
729.343 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
743.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
在2023年102年制定的資通安全管理要點裡面設置三個小組哪三個小組我目前的話只有不是目前我說112年的資通辦法到現在三個小組我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
750.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
758.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
整個作業的話我們目前的話就是根據之前的規定的話因為之前的話整個範圍的話都還是侷限在資訊處啦好來來來那你可以來民主黨 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
763.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
790.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我剛剛這樣問 我不知道秘書長你知不知道我在問什麼我了解 因為他分有三個階段裡面有內控的 也有外面的 也有委外來他有三個點裡面來對 但是這個我們立法院資通安全管理要點裡面設的三個小組是針對資訊處的 不是針對全院他是原來都資訊處在做那因為去年的12月1號資通安全管理法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
791.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
816.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
修正以後啊 重新來改要點嘛秘書長不要亂講修正前也不是都秘書在做啦修正前我們的這個資訊資通我們的這個資通安全廠之外的資通安全工作小組是由各單位組成的也各單位的一級主管來組成的這個安全小組我現在是針對集合小組我知道 他集合原來都在資訊是自己本身啦原來他就為外啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
817.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
823.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
他是有委外在資訊處裡面後來變成三個你們在今年修正之後你們把集合小組變為任務編組同時在最後你們說執行由本院資訊處執行這是這次修法才修到 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
836.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
855.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
執行由本院資訊署執行最後一段寫 集合作業得由外部廠商協助辦理就三點 我這樣好不好那個 沈委我把他的那個整個完整的書面給你我都有了 跟你報告一下 我都有了因為他有三段 我等一下可以跟你報告會後會後你坐在那裡我站在你前面我可以跟你報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
856.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
882.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
報告說你們現在的這個資訊的狀況因為他大概有三點 因為大概資安長要問這個重點是什麼你們現在你們的這個所謂集合小組你又說這是你們資訊處自己做然後又委又委外廠商那我們現在這個我們所有的這些資安風險如果資安風險來自這些委外的這些廠商雲端服務或第三方系統供應的系統的時候我們就又委託外 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
883.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
902.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
外面的廠商來做資訊安全的這個集合這個誰來提出警示誰來監督誰來負責這個我認為我們這樣立法院就國會這樣子重要的資訊安全的重要的據點我們這樣子委外把集合小組這樣委外這樣做我個人認為是有問題的這部分請秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
906.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
915.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
謝謝我了解一般齁一般你們都虛擬故事啦按照政府規定說要組什麼小組你們弄個內部辦法組了之後我來問你來這裡叫你來這裡問你也答不清楚這個齁 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
922.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
944.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
你看你們的公文 你看 秘書長可以看秘書長你可能位高權重 你管不到這麼細的但是我可以看看你們立法院現在立法院的幕僚秘書處的螺絲鬆到什麼程度了我們有關於立法院的這個已知的這些資安風險的管理措施我們有發一個函 在114年 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
951.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
973.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
有這個我們按照行政院的規定有說不得使用不得使用你先看第一個函我這裡秀一個函立法院資訊處的函這個是114年就是去年的4月11號你們發的函你們發這個函你們說第一個開宗明義依據行政院114年3月11號 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
976.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1004.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
的相關有函號 暗號 函文來依據這個函然後你們就說我這裡框起來的各委員會辦公室及黨團應盡量避免購買使用大陸廠牌的資訊通訊產品有嘛 有提醒那我就看盡量避免我就趕快去看行政院的這個函行政院的函是不得使用欸是不得使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1005.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1017.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
公務資訊通訊產品不得使用大陸廠牌且不得安裝非公務軟體你們依據的函是不得使用轉過來立法院的函變成請盡量避免 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1024.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1043.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
跟委員報告我們目前的話依照行政院規定的話我們要求就是院內行政單位的話都是不得使用這個大陸產品然後因為委員那邊的話是尊重委員我們是建議委員盡量不要使用因為委員有一些業務需要不是委員委員個人那個當然是委員個人的事情但是你們是國會辦公室及黨團 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1046.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1063.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我委員個人的手機我要使用我自己愛使用什麼軟體但是我國會的那一台屬於我們國會財產的那一台就是應該雖然是國會辦公室就是應該按照全國的統一規定就是不得使用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1065.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1085.364 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
所以跟委員報告的話,我目前都要求院內的行政單位目前都沒有使用大陸廠牌你看你們公文這樣不好意思,因為你剛剛有說給我延長時間我平常是不會拖時間的最後一個我說你們螺絲送到什麼程度你看這裡有一個電子公文 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1086.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1104.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我們這個本處定於114年9月15日至9月19日辦理這個第二次的修法辦理第二次電子郵件社交工程演練 基本上是資安演練 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1110.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1129.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
9月15號辦但是根據這個法令是半年要辦一次但是你們第二次辦已經是今年4月20日就超過半年的時間你們沒有按照規定在半年裡面辦一次這是第一個第二個你們說依據知通安全事件你們在這個函 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1131.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1157.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
114年9月的函你們說依據資通安全事件情報及應變辦法第八條之規定每年辦理一次社交工作演練工程演練這個是114年也就是去年的9月15號的函那今年的4月10號你們又要辦一次了所以你們又發一個函今年的4月10號那我比對這兩個函就是複製貼上了基本上是複製貼上 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1159.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1186.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
結果呢你們的複製貼上這個資通安全事件通報及應變辦法在今年的1月5號修法了原來的第8條已經變成第8條變成第6條了變第10條了法令都修了你們的公文複製貼上連有修過法都不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1188.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1208.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
你看你們這個秘書處這個實在是因為你可以我們司法委員會邀請你來報告你可以不來所以下面的人大家恐怕有恃無恐整個螺絲充成這樣子公文直接複製貼上法令都已經修改了還照舊法依據舊法的第八條修法都已經是第十條了 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1211.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1214.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
等一下我們今天應該會針對你們的預算來進行這個逐條的審查在這預算逐條審查裡面我們會針對我們目前秘書處的這些相關的這些問題我們來做深入仔細的檢討以上 |