| IVOD_ID |
169499 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/169499 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-5-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期第10次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期第10次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-20T15:11:19+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-20T15:27:08+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:49 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e8e93c7ebde79baebddba2ca9fa76d577568857f6f1e6f3b5ac68e728eefcbded23dda6d107b523c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
洪毓祥 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:11:19 - 15:27:08 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-20T14:30:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第5會期第10次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院台灣民眾黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：「本（第5）會期延長會期至115年7月31日止。」是否有當？請公決案。二、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。三、總統彈劾案事項。（5月19日上午）四、「保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫第一批發價書採購特別預算案籌編相關事項」專案報告。（5月19日下午）五、行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國防部部長及相關部會首長列席報告保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫第一批發價書採購特別預算案編製經過並備質詢。【如經本院同意行政院籌編特別預算案則於5月20日(三)下午加開】六、5月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。） |
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好 接下來我們請洪玉祥委員請質詢 陳冠廷委員請準備好 謝謝主席 有請這個卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.058 |
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55.897 |
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黃委員好好 蘇院長好辛苦了來 下一頁我想今天大概跟院長就很簡單的請教大概就幾個層面大概就是我們預算的規模 編列的邏輯然後還有因為川習會之後這個對美的關係的因應還有我們這一個軍購之後可能後續產生的一些民生的風險大概跟院長稍微請教一下下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
58.137 |
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84.383 |
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我們也跟各位國人報告我們今天省的是第一批的七千八百億的特別預算那應該我們是分八年編列分八年編列那因為我們的這個公務預算的話在一百一十五年我去查大概是九千四百九十五億所以如果我們把七千八百億平均儲好了雖然我們大概八十八 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
85.802 |
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111.282 |
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我剛看一下那個報告就是只編了88億所以大概如果這樣加起來就接近差不多一兆就是9500多億的公務預算國防預算對不起 跟委員說明一下那個9000多億的部分事實上是有加列了其他的特別預算包括海空戰力F16還有我們列任性的預算那我們真正國防部的預算是5614 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
112.883 |
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138.308 |
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光部的年度預算是五六一四就是一百一十五年這邊嘛我現在審議的總預算在光部的部分是五六一四不是九千多億所以我看一下你們有寫北約的什麼一些標準等等那這個另外因為要加計海巡跟那個退伍會的退伍的部分但是你不要就算我們國防安全的一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
140.322 |
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143.749 |
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國防部本身編列的年度預算的部分在今年是5614億我們因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
149.304 |
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170.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
依照北約的這個標準我們還可以加進海巡的部分還有退伍的部分這是按照北約的標準就是退休的那另外還有再加進我們不是有一個經濟部的一個韌性的一個預算兩年那我們也有獲付一定的預算然後再加進我們過去的這個沒關係啦反正就算在你 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
170.701 |
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191.188 |
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國防部真正國防部是五千多億啦對不對反正就是這些錢嘛反正這些錢都是我們要花的啦也不能說你沒有寫就不會花嘛那我的意思是說如果我們把國防啦海巡啦因為包含我們軍人後備軍人的維持嘛等等這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
192.228 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
206.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
加計進來我是在想的是說這個是要問一下就是說像我們主計場我應該查的數字應該也沒有什麼錯誤大概在我們下一個下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
207.796 |
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224.333 |
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大概在我們這邊來講的話大概我們如果115年估計的總預算、稅率、稅出的話大概如果國防是5400多然後大概是佔我們稅出是18.08稅率大概19.17大概接近20% |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
229.238 |
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241.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以我只是讓民眾了解就是說大概我們政府收入一百塊大概二十塊我們是要國防部的預算我這樣子應該可以吧 清楚正確啦 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
243.035 |
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259.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
因為數字是不會騙人的所以我大概是這樣講就是說那當然也有人講說會排擠掉就是說我們的這個社福跟經濟、教育等等尤其我們關心的什麼教文、社福其實我看一下這個歷年來這樣的預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
261.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
276.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
假設以社福還是維持在8318 價源還是維持在有稍微低一點就是大概還是5566那稍微受到影響比較多大概是經濟的預算還是說我們產業比較會賺錢所以這邊編的比較少這個想問一下主計這邊 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
284.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
312.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們是這樣子啊因為就是產業的部分並不是說編的比較少而是他有一些是基金的基金在做的就是因為我為什麼會從這個角度出發因為我關心說其實國防不是不重要但是我們就是要看我們到底有多少錢嘛對不對然後這樣子編下來的話我們國家是不是還是可以正常維持這樣的運作這樣子的一個發展今天跟委員報告因為教育啦社福有些事 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
313.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
333.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
依法法定該編列的事項所以每年都不得不編那過去幾年你知道我們有前瞻基礎建設用了8年的時間前瞻基礎建設那個大部分都是在經濟的部分跟地方建設的部分跟基礎建設的部分所以而且現在國防的預算我們有幾年有幾年特別他的支出是高峰的所以我們會有這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
334.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
350.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
高低不同的一個需求的變化所以你這樣總的看起來當然數字這個樣子如果拿場來看因為今天是談預算所以我們就稍微就這一點就較一下主計跟這個院長那再來的話下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
351.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
371.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那就是說在我們第一批我剛看了一下就是我們的預算我們大概如果按照昨天的這樣的報告下大概是2949點我們就算差不多3000億那事實上來講這邊我們如果全售期的後勤維修妥善率的這個全售期的成本大概是610億餘元對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
375.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
399.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
全受期不算在這裡應該是因為我昨天確實算起來是這樣那我們現在在611億會編到115年、116年的後續的工務預算嗎跟委員報告一般這種購案它本身它會有一個2到3年的初期的備料所以它在這個時候沒有有一個後期的為止成本 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
400.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
416.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那但是如果過了這個2030的初分備料之後呢他就會有一個維護後期的一個成本會出現那這一批的話大概如果這樣全受期的成本你後面假設有610億對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
418.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
443.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
算起來是差不多這個樣子,那它是要延後到第三年、第四年才編進去,到往後的公務預算我們在預算案的30頁有提到我們現在幾項計畫就是M1桶A期海馬斯、環甲型、博士2B還有標槍的全售期為止的一個成本的估計表 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
443.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
463.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那有在這上面好沒關係我只是提醒部長跟院長就是說我們不要買了武器然後後面用了兩三年就沒有辦法維修我們已經把這個全售期的那全售期的話會編到哪裡你只要告訴我就好就公務預算嘛後面的公務預算對我只要很簡單的回答沒那麼複雜再來下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
465.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
493.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那我有去把過去的邏輯上面對不起是編到還是編入我們的特別預算裡面所以後面全部都編到特別預算對 對 對 抱歉因為我有時候為什麼會這樣問是說我到底我要先確定那個錢要編在哪裡啦對不對 只是這樣子而已所以30頁的一個那個後勤全受給維持的後勤身分估計表就在我們的特別預算案裡面OK 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
494.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
509.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
再來的話我們看一下就是過去的邏輯就是也剛跟陳委員講的是一樣就是美方他同意出售然後我們台灣這邊中華民國這邊特別條例過在這特別預算大概是這種程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
510.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
537.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那今年為什麼分譜比較大就變成是好像我們先框一個一個為數的特別預算的金額然後我們再提特別條例然後我們有些的發價書或什麼等等也都還不確定比如說像我們現在合計的通過的條例是七千八百億對不對那第一波三千億第二波四千八百億第二批可是四千八百億現在川普壓在他的辦公室上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
538.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
555.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
對不對一月多就有所以你還不確定啦所以我編的這個東西就是說跟過去的程序是不太一樣過去的程序說我先同意出售我來編特別預算或是往之前先談好就是稍微我感覺是說這一次的流程怪怪的這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
556.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
577.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個不曉得國防部長有沒有什麼我們過去都是這樣,就是由美方的公售意願之後,我們就先行辨列預算然後送進來之後,那麼在還沒有美...其實大家一直在談發價數,事實上還有一個前面的程序就是前面的LO不是,知會國會的程序知會國會的程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
578.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
601.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
他確定的這個部分之後呢我們這個預算案就會轉成公開的那如果還沒有職位國會轉成機密所以這個就是一個計劃預算案的概念就是先送出預算案給這個國會來審查那國會可以有相當的時間來審查這個預算案那如果等到發架數的話就會像今天這樣就會比較趕 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
602.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
619.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
好因為我是以前在博士班的時候我們雄風一的時候當然是跟中科院在合作所以我們也稍微了解一下美國這樣子的一個做法那基本上那時候我們在做這些的中美技術合作的時候一定是照剛剛院長講就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
621.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
649.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
美國國務院根據他全球戰略其實是根據美國啦戰略安全的需求然後接下來他認為應該這個東西要合作什麼跟哪些國家然後他才去知會國會說我要賣或者是做這些技術移轉這些情況然後之後你國會OK之後再從國務院這邊發回來所以基本上那個程序上會這樣走所以我們現在是說這個第一波跟第二波第二波我們又還不確定的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
650.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
674.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
川普又壓在那邊不發那我就覺得我們的這個第二波的採購這樣子有可能delay也有可能不會啦如果是有可能delay或有可能delay甚至他不賣那我們這一批的預算第二波的4800億壓在這邊會形成什麼嚴重的後果或者是說對我們的戰力會有什麼樣子的真空影響要怎麼彌補 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
675.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
692.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
所以我們在去年11月就送出了這個特別條例那個時候我們就是在爭取時間上對我方最有利因為剛剛照部長所說美國必須有個公售意願出來那那個時候我們就要編列預算編列預算就告訴美國我們編了多少預算那美國會經由國會 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
694.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
716.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
進入國會 為智慧國會之前那是機密的進行進入國會之後 智慧國會它就變成公開那發駕輸就...對 因為他那個...我們現在停留在這個階段他大概是1月 今年的1月就躺在...所以如果去年11月趕快大院趕快審 趕快通過這個案子也許現在已經進行到後續的程序去了那現在已經...雖然晚了 我們還是極力爭取 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
717.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
740.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
國防部跟美方還是集體在爭取但是已經講到這邊就是說萬一沒有的話我還是希望國防部因為你講這很緊急嘛然後這是我們的韌性可是如果這個東西真的沒有我們假設一個最壞的狀況就跟我們在兵推一樣有很多種情況如果是一個最差的情況我會怎麼因應這個是我想要從國防部裡頭聽到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
742.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
771.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
有沒有這樣的備案國防部跟每一個國軍都很不願意去假設到萬一沒有怎麼辦那國家的戰力我們國軍的安全萬一沒有怎麼辦我現在實在不敢想像我們只有一頭請全力往前去衝跟美方保持更多的這個互相的溝通跟協調跟要求甚至雙方都成立的專案辦公室就未來準時執行的工作沒關係 院長沒關係我們再回到這個我關心的預算的問題下一頁就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
772.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
789.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
目前的話呢這個採購我看你們也寫了那這個我也不用你們回答反正現在的話就是交貨有一些delay那你們的報告也講了就是交貨率昨天的過去採購的東西的交貨率並不是那麼理想 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
790.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
810.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那我只是希望說後續我們通過這樣的預算編列的時候國防部就可以公開的部分可以告訴我們說到底是有沒有到沒有到不然我買了F16這些東西都沒有到然後今年我聽昨天顧部長講的我今年9月才會飛到第一架那什麼時候會有 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
811.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
826.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
其他的架數什麼時候會好跟委員報告 往年的特別條例我們也都是每年要向立法院實施專案報告就這個特別條例它的執行的進度都會跟大院做一個報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
827.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
846.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
對啊就是說我們討厭是說付了錢然後還看不到貨這個就是我們還是大家一起努力我們有提到就是現在持續案的時候的28案裡面那就是3案有延宕那我們就這些相關有一些提請有一些準時有一些延宕我們都是每年現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
846.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
873.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
特別條例也規定就是說這一次的特別條例是每個會期我們要跟大菸做一個專案報告是是是這個一定要的不然我們都黑箱我就看不到再往下那我覺得這個我們過去也吵很多為什麼不能用公務預算買因為我想這個我們也就不用再吵了再往下一張好了我現在這一個停留在這裡我一直覺得對這一張我現在非常的憤慨 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
875.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
902.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
就是在川普的眼中我們是偷了他的晶片然後我們跟他買武器的合約變成是他跟中國談判的籌碼然後講我們總統的時候也不講賴清德就講跟治理台灣的人談我覺得這個聽起來我是覺得很憤怒的為什麼你憑什麼罵我是小偷然後我花的錢比大陸還多 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
904.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
931.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
台積電的產能要外移我們的這個ART擴大的一個採購還比China多我們擴大採購在ART裡頭四年大舉採購848億每年212億中國才是170億美元的農產品然後我們為什麼不去跟他做反抗然後不跟他講說這個對我們實在是這個也是國際政治的現實所以我們一定要自我 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
946.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
947.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好 謝謝好 謝謝 |