| IVOD_ID |
169451 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/169451 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-19-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-20T10:35:22+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-20T10:46:44+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:22 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e8e93c7ebde79bae9e4e5457f53f8514b2ebd91c2d73985b1cbc05507f2af63485564259685e84df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
洪毓祥 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:35:22 - 10:46:44 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-20T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣電力股份有限公司、台灣糖業股份有限公司。(詢答)
【所列預算提案於115年6月5日(星期五)下午5時截止收件】
【5月20日及5月21日二天一次會】） |
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洪委員毓祥 |
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曾董事長文生 |
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曾董事長文生 |
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洪委員毓祥 |
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我們有請這個台電董事長跟總經理董事長 總經理 |
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我想是這樣子整個在我是很認真把你們的預算書整個都在看完然後稍微整理一下大概從數據可以驗證大概過去這幾年我們對台電以及我們整個能源結構政策的問題的看法從數字來看是蠻準的從你們115年度的一個收入 |
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減少支出總支出是增加而且是300多億所以整個大概你今年115年度的虧損預估大概是280億那當然你去年有一點餘出 |
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但是之後你打掉這個虧損反正你整個的營運資金的話看起來今年你預估是大概也是負的7450億左右我的問題很簡單這個數字看起來都是慘不忍睹我們也都理解我的問題是這個是政策不對造成還是我們不會經營造成我想請董事長 |
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那個跟委員報告我覺得主要是要看我們台電公司現在擔負了哪些政策我想說幾個事情第一個事情就是電價因為不要通膨避免通膨那這個也是政策的負擔你是覺得政策的比較大還是績效比較大因為績效不好就找你我跟委員報告對你講的完全正確我沒有辦法在這件事情上完全自己講說是什麼原因 |
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台電的經營績效必須被提升是董事長的責任但台電同時肩負了很多政策任務這也是事實明白所以我第一說未來就是你如果可以的話應該在今年的報告裡面把政策你該負擔的對不對這些成本跟你經營績效這些的成本分開來看也許這樣就會清楚不然你整個混在一起說實在的台電董事長折馬拍折對不對 |
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我跟委員報告我覺得您講的這個事情確實如果要多一份理解可以理解這個事但我們的預算書編列其實是從兩年前就開始製編因為包括因為我要在去年8月以前送進來那個其實中間都會有一些時間差沒問題啦因為我是說這是結構性的問題好不好你再進去看看那再來第二個剛剛這個也有一些委員在質詢這個問題不管Jerry問什麼 |
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我的感覺是這樣子啦不只是你們台丁 台丁剩它水小 對不對就剛好第一泡這樣子中油也有啊台糖也有啊當然是不同公司啦台水也有那這時候讓你們經濟部改組那這個跟工部長沒關係齁應該是王美花部長那時候 |
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他很重視美學我們也都被唸過簡報的配色不對 我要割一堆但是我的問題是我的問題很簡單就是說我們既然都是一些Question除了台糖因為有賺錢之外我覺得Question的企業暫時在Logo跟識別這一塊未來如果再遇到這樣子有這種Top-down的指示我們就專業一點因為我待過民間那麼多公司也真的沒有看過這樣子 |
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你賺錢都不要緊這是我給你的建議不用回答因為也不是你的錯我就剛講嘛這政策的問題嘛再來的話就是我看一下你們的預算受電量增加0.39%電費收入增加9.2%我就根據你們的數字去算的這都根據你們的預算書 |
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那這個時候來講我的問題就是說發電量差不多但是電費的收入增加這是代表我們今年的下半年我是要調漲電費 |
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那個跟委員報告其實是一樣就是時間lag的關係就是你如果跟2025年相較那2025年的如果有任何的電費調整都不會及時反映這第一點因為它是事後反映所以在預算裡面本來就不會反映這第一個是第二個是我們在編制這些預算的時候更有一個重要的問題就是我跟妳講我其實是 |
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因為下半年你預估嘛因為你告訴我一定都是電價委員會決定今年下半年你說電價的狀況我跟委員報告喔狀況就是這樣台電公司的責任是我們把所有經營狀況去跟委員會做報告那有哪些部分其實是燃料成本哪些東西是因為 |
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增加了非常多投資的折舊我們都會一一做說明但我要跟委員報告我們現在才五月那接下來整個市場會怎麼反應包括我們也最近在看OPEC有沒有什麼變化 |
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我相信委員都在關心這些事就是它那個OPEC的變化對於油價的變化會有什麼樣的反應而且中國公司可能比我們Watch的更深所以我們現在都會透過部裡面的協調在瞭解整個燃料工科的走勢因為我覺得行政院或經濟部大概就是 |
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中油台電難兄難弟嘛A公司虧損乾脆就轉嫁給虧更多的B公司好了這樣看起來是我們這個明白了我們就不用再辯解大概知道再來因為我們的核電好像可能要重啟但是我如果看你們的預算大概成本的結構就是出現在火力發電跟購入電力吃掉台電大半的一個成本因為這兩個加起來大概就是8,443億那 |
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372.27 |
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藍氣這個當然沒辦法因為你核電停完之後火力發電我們要需要是減低藍美所以這個藍氣的依賴比過高剛剛邱委員也問了這也是國安問題我們現在的存量大概是11還是14我們現在大概是11大概12、3天左右太多 OK好 |
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那現在在這個購電這個3567億的你們的這個成本的這個估算裡面再生能源的購電我幫你算起來大概是差不多應該有1750億這個占比是非常非常的高 |
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這個是我是覺得這個是我們重大財務壓力的問題那這個時候我也去幫你算一下如果你們這些藍莓購電藍氣購電的話大概大概3.29 3.73跟你的平均電價3.87是差不多但是我們的離岸風電太陽光電我們自古以來就知道了都很高都高於我們的平均的售電的價格 |
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所以我覺得回到我剛剛講的問題說實在改善也不是你技巧不好因為政策要配合因為我們再生能源的占比要占20%那我只是提醒你巧婦難為無米之炊所以我是覺得就是在這些方面我們當然就能省則省那另外我也要提醒就是說因為你們的固定資產投資在智慧電網我都支持但是 |
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負債比實在很高就從公司經營來看你現在利息一年要付多少利息一年大概400億300多還不到400億300多億嘛所以我是怕你今年如果再負債更多這個可能你今年會再舉債多少我們預計啦就是我們今年就是計息的簡單講就是計息負債大概是兩兆 |
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兩兆對不對那你要借新還舊還是借比較便宜的我這樣說我們整個整個財務結構裡面有公司在嘛他有公司在然後也有跟銀行借款等等他都有到期的問題所以一定會有借新還舊就是我舊的到期我用新的去補 |
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但是我們基本上就是看利率的狀況我們也有發行一些商業的本票等等的這個因為台幣的資金規模很大所以這個我現在就善盡提醒因為我們接下來就是我們還有國防軍購你到期的時候我匯入美金那個匯率在上去的時候那央行如果要他可能會升息所以你的利息的支出我覺得你們這些財塊的可能要把這個風險因子要估計進去 |
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因為你300多可能下去我看今年搞不好到年底就400億所以這個可能要稍微注意一下我都很提醒啦我這很認真的看你什麼預算書啦各位報告謝謝你的提醒我講一個事您馬上知道就是因為我們有一些債 |
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其實是之前借的所以他那個時候利息比較低的時候我們就有佈局那當然最近一段時間他有波動所以是平均來看我們大概300多億那我剛才講我剛才講說不到400億是用2兆乘以2%算出來的那2%這已經是高的利率了我想說就這樣跟委員報告就跟您同步 |
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那再來就是說這也是跟我剛剛第一個問題問的一樣就是很多重大工程我們是配合政策沒辦法是回收的這個報酬率也很低不管是離岸風力加強電網或者是我們的一個南科相關物色的這些都是這些政策的東西我是認為可能再來將來就是應該是讓政府去編錢去做這些政策而不是要放在台電的資產負債表 |
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因為這樣子就顯得你們的這個幫政府去美化行政院的帳面然後使得你的這個帳面虧損很難看嘛你的財塊都點頭我告訴你真的那個委員那個如果如果部長編了預算您是不是可以支持部長這樣要補貼台電的話那就是究責行政院啊行政院來專案報告啊對不對我們當然是會支持不然我是覺得從公司經營角度很奇怪啊對不對 |
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你們爸爸媽媽撂的錢 叫這個孩子要扛這個孩子的賬面就很難看然後每天都成為標靶然後員工如果要加薪或者是發獎金你們到年底又會被唸 |
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對不對就一再因果循環啦我是幫台電的員工說話啦或者是說在你們將來的這個報告裡頭如果把政策跟你經營績效實質去分開這樣我才能夠看出說這個曾文森跟這個郭總經理來帶領這個台電經營績效好不好嘛 |
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阿不然到時候我們就說這是政策背的鍋怪在你們兩個身上我覺得也不對啦好不好我是就事論事啦阿以上的話大概是這樣阿具體的要求我想就是後面大概我再跟那個總經理這邊再來聊聊好不好再讓我詳細的理解好謝謝阿台堂的我就是書面質詢你也說你今天有事阿有你有事你書面質詢回答好謝謝 |
| transcript.gazette[0].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[0].start |
2026-05-20T10:35:22+08:00 |
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1 |
| transcript.gazette[0].end |
2026-05-20T10:35:23+08:00 |
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謝謝主席。 |
| transcript.gazette[0].quality |
0 |
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洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[1].start |
2026-05-20T10:35:22.029000+08:00 |
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|
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2026-05-20T10:35:23.450000+08:00 |
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我們有請台電董事長跟總經理。 |
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主席 |
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|
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2026-05-20T10:35:23.831000+08:00 |
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董事長、總經理。 |
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1 |
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洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[3].start |
2026-05-20T10:35:47.702000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[3].end |
2026-05-20T10:35:55.628000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].text |
我想是這樣子，我很認真地把你們整個預算書都看完，然後我有稍微整理一下。 |
| transcript.gazette[3].quality |
0.844 |
| transcript.gazette[4].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[4].start |
2026-05-20T10:35:58.730000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[4].end |
2026-05-20T10:36:06.937000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].text |
從數據大概可以驗證過去這幾年來我們對於台電以及整個能源結構政策問題的看法，實際上從數字來看是蠻準的。 |
| transcript.gazette[4].quality |
0.833 |
| transcript.gazette[5].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[5].start |
2026-05-20T10:36:06.977000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[5].end |
2026-05-20T10:36:23.189000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].text |
從你們115年度收入減少，總支出增加，而且是三百多億，所以你今（115）年度的虧損預估大概是280億。 |
| transcript.gazette[5].quality |
0.944 |
| transcript.gazette[6].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[6].start |
2026-05-20T10:36:23.369000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[6].end |
2026-05-20T10:36:40.166000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].text |
當然你去年有一點餘絀，但是之後有打掉這一個虧損，反正看你整個的營運資金，預估今年大概也是負的，7,450億左右。 |
| transcript.gazette[6].quality |
0.851 |
| transcript.gazette[7].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[7].start |
2026-05-20T10:36:41.186000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[7].end |
2026-05-20T10:36:51.809000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].text |
我的問題很簡單，這個數字看起來都慘不忍睹，我們也都理解，我的問題是，這個是政策不對造成的，還是不會經營造成的？ |
| transcript.gazette[7].quality |
0.959 |
| transcript.gazette[8].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[8].start |
2026-05-20T10:36:52.370000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[8].end |
2026-05-20T10:36:53.070000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].text |
我想請問董事長。 |
| transcript.gazette[8].quality |
0.857 |
| transcript.gazette[9].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[9].start |
2026-05-20T10:36:56.202000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[9].end |
2026-05-20T10:37:09.706000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].text |
跟委員報告，我覺得主要是要看我們台電公司現在擔負了哪些政策，我想有幾個事情，第一個事情就是電價因為不要通膨，要避免通膨…… |
| transcript.gazette[9].quality |
0.945 |
| transcript.gazette[10].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[10].start |
2026-05-20T10:37:09.706000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[10].end |
2026-05-20T10:37:11.387000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].text |
這個我都清楚。 |
| transcript.gazette[10].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[11].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[11].start |
2026-05-20T10:37:11.387000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[11].end |
2026-05-20T10:37:12.587000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].text |
這個也是政策的負擔。 |
| transcript.gazette[11].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[12].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[12].start |
2026-05-20T10:37:12.587000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[12].end |
2026-05-20T10:37:16.308000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].text |
你覺得是政策的因素比較大，還是績效比較不好？ |
| transcript.gazette[12].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[13].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[13].start |
2026-05-20T10:37:16.468000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[13].end |
2026-05-20T10:37:17.349000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].text |
因為績效不好就找你。 |
| transcript.gazette[13].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[14].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[14].start |
2026-05-20T10:37:18.129000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[14].end |
2026-05-20T10:37:20.930000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].text |
我跟委員報告，對，你講的完全正確。 |
| transcript.gazette[14].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[15].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[15].start |
2026-05-20T10:37:20.930000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[15].end |
2026-05-20T10:37:33.357000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].text |
我沒有辦法在這件事情上完全自己講是什麼原因，台電的經營績效必須被提升，這是董事長的責任，但台電同時肩負了很多政策任務，這也是事實。 |
| transcript.gazette[15].quality |
0.95 |
| transcript.gazette[16].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[16].start |
2026-05-20T10:37:33.357000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[16].end |
2026-05-20T10:37:52.451000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].text |
明白，所以我的意思是，未來你如果可以的話，應該在今年的報告裡面，把政策你該負擔的這些成本，跟經營績效的這些成本效益分開來看，也許這樣就會清楚，不然整個混在一起，說實在的，台電董事長真的是難做，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[16].quality |
0.854 |
| transcript.gazette[17].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[17].start |
2026-05-20T10:37:52.891000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[17].end |
2026-05-20T10:37:57.995000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].text |
我跟委員報告，我覺得您講的這個事情，確實如果要多一分理解，可以理解這個事。 |
| transcript.gazette[17].quality |
0.97 |
| transcript.gazette[18].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[18].start |
2026-05-20T10:37:58.695000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[18].end |
2026-05-20T10:38:09.383000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].text |
但我們的預算書編列，其實是從兩年前就開始製編的，因為我要在去年8月以前送進來，其實中間都會有一些時間差。 |
| transcript.gazette[18].quality |
0.979 |
| transcript.gazette[19].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[19].start |
2026-05-20T10:38:09.623000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[19].end |
2026-05-20T10:38:12.846000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].text |
沒問題，如果說這是結構性的問題，好不好？ |
| transcript.gazette[19].quality |
0.882 |
| transcript.gazette[20].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[20].start |
2026-05-20T10:38:13.246000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[20].end |
2026-05-20T10:38:14.087000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].text |
你再帶回去看看。 |
| transcript.gazette[20].quality |
0.714 |
| transcript.gazette[21].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[21].start |
2026-05-20T10:38:14.827000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[21].end |
2026-05-20T10:38:17.629000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].text |
再來第二個，剛剛也有一些委員質詢這個問題，不管是邱議瑩或者是誰。 |
| transcript.gazette[21].quality |
0.724 |
| transcript.gazette[22].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[22].start |
2026-05-20T10:38:20.803000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[22].end |
2026-05-20T10:38:25.227000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].text |
我的感覺是這樣子的，不只是你們台電，台電算是比較衰，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[22].quality |
0.615 |
| transcript.gazette[23].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[23].start |
2026-05-20T10:38:25.428000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[23].end |
2026-05-20T10:38:28.351000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].text |
因為剛好成為第一砲，中油也有啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[23].quality |
0.643 |
| transcript.gazette[24].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[24].start |
2026-05-20T10:38:29.252000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[24].end |
2026-05-20T10:38:29.892000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].text |
台糖也有啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[24].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[25].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[25].start |
2026-05-20T10:38:30.373000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[25].end |
2026-05-20T10:38:32.355000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].text |
當然是不同公司啦，台水也有。 |
| transcript.gazette[25].quality |
0.917 |
| transcript.gazette[26].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[26].start |
2026-05-20T10:38:33.215000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[26].end |
2026-05-20T10:38:38.941000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].text |
這時候你們經濟部改組，這個跟龔部長沒關係，應該是王美花部長那時候的事。 |
| transcript.gazette[26].quality |
0.906 |
| transcript.gazette[27].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[27].start |
2026-05-20T10:38:40.532000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[27].end |
2026-05-20T10:38:46.857000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].text |
她很重視美學，我們也都被唸過，像是簡報的配色不對「碗糕一堆」。 |
| transcript.gazette[27].quality |
0.808 |
| transcript.gazette[28].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[28].start |
2026-05-20T10:38:47.977000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[28].end |
2026-05-20T10:39:04.488000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].text |
但我的問題是，我的問題很簡單，既然都是一些虧損，除了台糖有賺錢之外，我覺得虧損的企業暫時在logo跟識別這一塊，未來如果再遇到有這種top-down的指示，我們就專業一點。 |
| transcript.gazette[28].quality |
0.91 |
| transcript.gazette[29].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[29].start |
2026-05-20T10:39:05.969000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[29].end |
2026-05-20T10:39:08.731000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].text |
我待過民間那麼多公司也真的沒有看過這樣的啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[29].quality |
0.905 |
| transcript.gazette[30].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[30].start |
2026-05-20T10:39:10.673000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[30].end |
2026-05-20T10:39:17.898000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].text |
你賺錢要改都不要緊，這是我給你的建議，不用回答，因為也不是你的錯，我剛剛講了，這是政策的問題。 |
| transcript.gazette[30].quality |
0.878 |
| transcript.gazette[31].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[31].start |
2026-05-20T10:39:19.659000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[31].end |
2026-05-20T10:39:31.488000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].text |
再來，我看了一下你們的預算，售電量增加0.39%，電費收入增加9.2%，我根據你們的數字去算，這些都是根據你們的預算書。 |
| transcript.gazette[31].quality |
0.918 |
| transcript.gazette[32].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[32].start |
2026-05-20T10:39:33.358000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[32].end |
2026-05-20T10:39:43.733000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].text |
這個時候我的問題就是，發電量差不多，但是電費的收入增加，這是代表我們今年下半年或未來是不是要調漲電費？ |
| transcript.gazette[32].quality |
0.894 |
| transcript.gazette[33].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[33].start |
2026-05-20T10:39:45.563000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[33].end |
2026-05-20T10:40:01.872000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].text |
跟委員報告，其實一樣是時間lag的關係，如果跟2025年相較，2025年如果有任何的電費調整都不會及時反應，這是第一點，因為它是事後反應，所以在預算裡面本來就不會反應，這是第一個。 |
| transcript.gazette[33].quality |
0.932 |
| transcript.gazette[34].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[34].start |
2026-05-20T10:40:02.072000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[34].end |
2026-05-20T10:40:05.854000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].text |
第二個，我們在編製這些預算的時候有一個更重要的是我更早…… |
| transcript.gazette[34].quality |
0.846 |
| transcript.gazette[35].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[35].start |
2026-05-20T10:40:10.497000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[35].end |
2026-05-20T10:40:11.538000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].text |
那下半年你預估嘛…… |
| transcript.gazette[35].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[36].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[36].start |
2026-05-20T10:40:11.538000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[36].end |
2026-05-20T10:40:12.538000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].text |
我其實是在2025年實際出現的前一年就編好了…… |
| transcript.gazette[36].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[37].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[37].start |
2026-05-20T10:40:11.838000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[37].end |
2026-05-20T10:40:13.940000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].text |
反正你一定告訴我都是電價委員會決定。 |
| transcript.gazette[37].quality |
0.765 |
| transcript.gazette[38].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[38].start |
2026-05-20T10:40:13.940000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[38].end |
2026-05-20T10:40:14.940000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].text |
您是說今年嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[38].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[39].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[39].start |
2026-05-20T10:40:14.661000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[39].end |
2026-05-20T10:40:16.482000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].text |
今年下半年。 |
| transcript.gazette[39].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[40].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[40].start |
2026-05-20T10:40:17.283000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[40].end |
2026-05-20T10:40:18.784000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].text |
你說電價的狀況嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[40].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[41].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[41].start |
2026-05-20T10:40:18.784000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[41].end |
2026-05-20T10:40:19.784000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].text |
對，會不會再上升、會不會調漲？ |
| transcript.gazette[41].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[42].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[42].start |
2026-05-20T10:40:18.784000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[42].end |
2026-05-20T10:40:36.941000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].text |
我跟委員報告，狀況就是這樣，我們台電公司的責任是把所有經營狀況去跟委員會做報告，有哪些部分是燃料成本、哪些東西是因為增加了非常多投資的折舊，我們都會一一做說明。 |
| transcript.gazette[42].quality |
0.959 |
| transcript.gazette[43].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[43].start |
2026-05-20T10:40:37.502000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[43].end |
2026-05-20T10:40:50.470000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].text |
但我要跟委員報告，現在才5月，接下來整個市場會怎麼反應，包括我們最近也在看OPEC有沒有什麼變化，我相信委員也都在關心這些事。是啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[43].quality |
0.949 |
| transcript.gazette[44].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[44].start |
2026-05-20T10:40:51.311000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[44].end |
2026-05-20T10:41:01.740000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].text |
OPEC的變化對於油價的變化會有什麼樣的反應，而且中油公司可能比我們watch得更深，所以我們現在都會透過部裡面的協調，了解整個燃料價格的走勢。 |
| transcript.gazette[44].quality |
0.912 |
| transcript.gazette[45].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[45].start |
2026-05-20T10:41:01.740000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[45].end |
2026-05-20T10:41:09.864000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].text |
因為我覺得行政院跟經濟部大概就是中油、台電難兄難弟，A公司虧損乾脆就轉嫁給虧更多的B公司。 |
| transcript.gazette[45].quality |
0.952 |
| transcript.gazette[46].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[46].start |
2026-05-20T10:41:09.864000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[46].end |
2026-05-20T10:41:10.984000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].text |
沒有、沒有。 |
| transcript.gazette[46].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[47].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[47].start |
2026-05-20T10:41:10.984000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[47].end |
2026-05-20T10:41:13.785000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].text |
這樣看起來是……我們…… |
| transcript.gazette[47].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[48].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[48].start |
2026-05-20T10:41:13.785000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[48].end |
2026-05-20T10:41:14.005000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].text |
這個明白啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[48].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[49].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[49].start |
2026-05-20T10:41:14.565000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[49].end |
2026-05-20T10:41:16.346000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].text |
就不用再辯解了，我們大概知道。 |
| transcript.gazette[49].quality |
0.769 |
| transcript.gazette[50].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[50].start |
2026-05-20T10:41:16.826000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[50].end |
2026-05-20T10:41:48.477000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].text |
再來，因為核電現在可能要重啟，但是我看你們的預算，大概成本的結構就是出現在火力發電跟購入電力，吃掉台電大半的成本，因為這兩個加起來大概就是8,443億，燃氣當然沒辦法，因為核電停下之後要用火力發電，我們又希望減低燃煤，所以燃氣的依賴比過高，剛剛邱委員也問了，這也是國安問題，我們現在的存量大概是11天還是14天？ |
| transcript.gazette[50].quality |
0.881 |
| transcript.gazette[51].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[51].start |
2026-05-20T10:41:49.757000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[51].end |
2026-05-20T10:41:53.459000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].text |
我們現在大概是12、13天左右。 |
| transcript.gazette[51].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[52].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[52].start |
2026-05-20T10:41:53.999000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[52].end |
2026-05-20T10:42:17.070000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].text |
差不多，在你們購電的成本估算3,567億裡面，再生能源的購電，我幫你算起來差不多應該有1,750億，這個占比是非常、非常的高，我覺得這個是你們重大財務壓力的問題。 |
| transcript.gazette[52].quality |
0.879 |
| transcript.gazette[53].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[53].start |
2026-05-20T10:42:18.831000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[53].end |
2026-05-20T10:42:46.059000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].text |
我也幫你算了一下，你們這些燃煤購電、燃氣購電大概是3.29、3.73，跟你的平均電價3.87是差不多，但是我們的離岸風電、太陽光電的價格，我們自古以來就知道都很高，都高於你們平均售電的價格，所以回到我剛剛講的問題，其實也不是你的績效不好，是因為政策要配合，因為我們再生能源的占比要占20%。 |
| transcript.gazette[53].quality |
0.884 |
| transcript.gazette[54].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[54].start |
2026-05-20T10:42:46.379000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[54].end |
2026-05-20T10:42:54.962000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].text |
我只是提醒你，巧婦難為無米之炊，所以我覺得在這些方面我們當然就能省則省。 |
| transcript.gazette[54].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[55].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[55].start |
2026-05-20T10:42:55.683000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[55].end |
2026-05-20T10:43:07.959000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].text |
另外，我也要提醒，你們的固定資產投資在智慧電網等部分，我都支持，但是負債比實在很高，從公司經營來看，你現在利息一年要付多少？ |
| transcript.gazette[55].quality |
0.945 |
| transcript.gazette[56].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[56].start |
2026-05-20T10:43:09.460000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[56].end |
2026-05-20T10:43:15.285000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].text |
利息一年大概三百多億，還不到四百億。 |
| transcript.gazette[56].quality |
0.688 |
| transcript.gazette[57].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[57].start |
2026-05-20T10:43:15.285000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[57].end |
2026-05-20T10:43:15.645000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].text |
三百多億嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[57].quality |
0.6 |
| transcript.gazette[58].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[58].start |
2026-05-20T10:43:16.606000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[58].end |
2026-05-20T10:43:21.510000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].text |
所以我是怕你今年如果再負債更多，你今年會再舉債多少？ |
| transcript.gazette[58].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[59].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[59].start |
2026-05-20T10:43:22.791000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[59].end |
2026-05-20T10:43:27.615000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].text |
我們預計我們今年的計息負債大概是2兆。 |
| transcript.gazette[59].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[60].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[60].start |
2026-05-20T10:43:30.061000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[60].end |
2026-05-20T10:43:33.403000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].text |
2兆，你要借新還舊還是借比較便宜的？ |
| transcript.gazette[60].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[61].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[61].start |
2026-05-20T10:43:33.764000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[61].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[61].end |
2026-05-20T10:43:54.217000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[61].text |
我這樣說，我們整個財務結構裡面有公司債，也有跟銀行借款等等，這些都有到期的問題，所以一定會有借新還舊，就是我舊的到期，我借新的去補，但是我們基本上就是看利率的狀況，而且我們也有發行一些商業本票等等，因為台電的資金規模很大…… |
| transcript.gazette[61].quality |
0.921 |
| transcript.gazette[62].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[62].start |
2026-05-20T10:43:55.919000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[62].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[62].end |
2026-05-20T10:44:19.853000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[62].text |
這個我都理解，我現在都善盡提醒，因為接下來我們還有國防軍購，到期的時候匯入美金，那個匯率在上去的時候，央行如果要，也可能會升息，所以有關你的利息支出，我覺得你們的財會可能要把這個風險因子估計進去，因為你的利息三百多億，我看今年到年底搞不好會到四百億，所以這個可能要稍微注意一下，我都是提醒啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[62].quality |
0.827 |
| transcript.gazette[63].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[63].start |
2026-05-20T10:44:20.373000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[63].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[63].end |
2026-05-20T10:44:22.354000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[63].text |
我是很認真的看你們的預算書啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[63].quality |
0.786 |
| transcript.gazette[64].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[64].start |
2026-05-20T10:44:22.975000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[64].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[64].end |
2026-05-20T10:44:44.386000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[64].text |
跟委員報告，謝謝你的提醒，我講一件事你一定馬上知道，就是因為我們有一些債其實是之前借的，利息比較低的時候我們就有布局，當然最近一段時間有波動，所以是平均來看利息大概三百多億，我剛才講不到四百億是用2兆乘以2%算出來的，那2%已經是高的利率了。明白。 |
| transcript.gazette[64].quality |
0.856 |
| transcript.gazette[65].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[65].start |
2026-05-20T10:44:45.967000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[65].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[65].end |
2026-05-20T10:44:46.548000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[65].text |
跟委員報告這個部分。 |
| transcript.gazette[65].quality |
0.556 |
| transcript.gazette[66].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[66].start |
2026-05-20T10:44:48.969000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[66].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[66].end |
2026-05-20T10:45:14.719000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[66].text |
再來，這也是跟我剛剛第一個問題問的一樣，很多重大工程你們是配合政策，是沒辦法回收的，報酬率也很低，不管是離岸風力、加強電網，或者是南科相關工程等等，這些都是，這些政策的東西我是認為將來是不是應該讓政府編錢去做這些政策，而不是放在台電的資產負債表裡？ |
| transcript.gazette[66].quality |
0.912 |
| transcript.gazette[67].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[67].start |
2026-05-20T10:45:16.560000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[67].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[67].end |
2026-05-20T10:45:24.124000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[67].text |
因為這樣子就顯得你們幫政府去美化行政院的帳面，然後使得你的帳面虧損很難看嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[67].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[68].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[68].start |
2026-05-20T10:45:24.704000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[68].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[68].end |
2026-05-20T10:45:26.545000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[68].text |
你的財會都點頭，我跟你說真的。 |
| transcript.gazette[68].quality |
0.769 |
| transcript.gazette[69].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[69].start |
2026-05-20T10:45:27.246000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[69].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[69].end |
2026-05-20T10:45:32.248000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[69].text |
委員，如果部長編了預算，您是不是可以支持部長？ |
| transcript.gazette[69].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[70].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[70].start |
2026-05-20T10:45:32.248000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[70].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[70].end |
2026-05-20T10:45:33.489000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[70].text |
要補貼台電的話。 |
| transcript.gazette[70].quality |
0.857 |
| transcript.gazette[71].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[71].start |
2026-05-20T10:45:33.489000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[71].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[71].end |
2026-05-20T10:45:35.050000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[71].text |
那就是究責行政院啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[71].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[72].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[72].start |
2026-05-20T10:45:35.270000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[72].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[72].end |
2026-05-20T10:45:36.671000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[72].text |
行政院來專案報告啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[72].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[73].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[73].start |
2026-05-20T10:45:37.691000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[73].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[73].end |
2026-05-20T10:45:41.673000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[73].text |
我們當然是會支持，不然我是覺得從公司經營的角度很奇怪啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[73].quality |
0.923 |
| transcript.gazette[74].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[74].start |
2026-05-20T10:45:43.474000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[74].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[74].end |
2026-05-20T10:45:58.764000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[74].text |
你爸爸、媽媽賠的錢，叫這些孩子要扛，這些孩子的帳面就很難看，然後每天都成為標靶，員工如果要加薪或者是發獎金，你們到年底又會被唸，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[74].quality |
0.933 |
| transcript.gazette[75].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[75].start |
2026-05-20T10:45:58.764000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[75].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[75].end |
2026-05-20T10:46:03.008000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[75].text |
就一再因果循環，我是幫台電的員工說話。 |
| transcript.gazette[75].quality |
0.941 |
| transcript.gazette[76].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[76].start |
2026-05-20T10:46:03.688000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[76].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[76].end |
2026-05-20T10:46:23.065000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[76].text |
我只是說在你們將來的報告裡頭，如果把政策跟你的經營績效實質去分開，這樣我才能夠看出曾文生跟郭總經理帶領的台電經營績效好不好，不然到時候我們就說這是政策背的鍋，怪在你們兩個身上，我覺得也不對啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[76].quality |
0.933 |
| transcript.gazette[77].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[77].start |
2026-05-20T10:46:23.565000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[77].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[77].end |
2026-05-20T10:46:24.546000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[77].text |
我是就事論事啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[77].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[78].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[78].start |
2026-05-20T10:46:25.367000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[78].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[78].end |
2026-05-20T10:46:36.715000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[78].text |
以上大概是這樣，具體的要求我後面再跟總經理聊聊，再讓我詳細的理解，謝謝。謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[78].quality |
0.941 |
| transcript.gazette[79].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[79].start |
2026-05-20T10:46:37.356000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[79].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[79].end |
2026-05-20T10:46:41.199000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[79].text |
台糖的部分我就用書面質詢，你不要以為你今天沒事，有你的事情，書面質詢請你回答。 |
| transcript.gazette[79].quality |
0.6 |
| transcript.gazette[80].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[80].start |
2026-05-20T10:46:41.399000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[80].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[80].end |
2026-05-20T10:46:41.399000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[80].text |
謝謝洪委員。 |
| transcript.gazette[80].quality |
0.4 |
| transcript.gazette[81].speaker |
主席（洪委員毓祥） |
| transcript.gazette[81].start |
2026-05-20T10:46:41.899000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[81].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[81].end |
2026-05-20T10:46:45.041857+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[81].text |
接下來請謝衣鳯委員質詢。 |
| transcript.gazette[81].quality |
0 |