| IVOD_ID |
169429 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/169429 |
| 日期 |
2026-05-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-5-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期第10次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
10 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期第10次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-05-19T16:00:28+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-05-19T16:16:06+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:38 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8880074e6a4cf30b98b98b70b77d28d6a9272009bde436eabb1c87f72f231e0d617961a7114e88395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
沈伯洋 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:00:28 - 16:16:06 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-05-19T10:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第5會期第10次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院台灣民眾黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：「本（第5）會期延長會期至115年7月31日止。」是否有當？請公決案。二、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。三、總統彈劾案事項。（5月19日上午）四、「保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫第一批發價書採購特別預算案籌編相關事項」專案報告。（5月19日下午）五、行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、國防部部長及相關部會首長列席報告保衛國家安全及強化不對稱戰力計畫第一批發價書採購特別預算案編製經過並備質詢。【如經本院同意行政院籌編特別預算案則於5月20日(三)下午加開】六、5月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。） |
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今天當然是我們要來討論這整個軍購預算的一個詢打 |
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38.634 |
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但是我剛剛前面也聽了非常多委員詢問相關的問題 |
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42.987 |
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我覺得畢竟全民都在關注這件事情所以我覺得趁這個時候我覺得再來釐清一些事項第一個就是我發現在今天很多的這個問答當中實在有一些道果為因的問題那我為什麼這樣講就是因為那個院長應該都還記得這一個去年的這一個光復鄉所發生的事情那我們過了這一個馬太安的這個特別條例那匡列的這一個300億 |
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那這個就算有這個馬太安的特別條例我們的預算還是要重新送到立法院這個細項還是要審查那審查之後呢然後也才能夠去動用這是整個順序那這個特別條例的通過一直到預算細項的提出一直到立法院的審議這是一個過程 |
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91.072 |
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那我舉個例子當時這個馬太安條例裡面就講說我們為了要振興這個光復鄉我們要買一些農業的機具這個是條例規定說要買農業機具那預算的時候當然就可能才會有細項我到底是買哪一種農業機具我買的可能是日本的哪一個牌子的或者國產的哪一個牌子的農業機具然後到最後要買的時候也有可能會面臨到比如說對方剛好沒有貨 |
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119.505 |
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但是我們剛剛在討論的整個過程當中我發現很多人都會把這個後面這個沒有貨所以我前面不要訂這個條例這是一件很奇怪的事情因為需求跟供給這完全是兩件事 |
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134.505 |
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我們今天去討論這個軍購是因為我們有需求不是因為對方有攻擊比如說馬太安我們的需求就是我們要重建這個光復箱我們有這個需求所以為了這個需求我們要買什麼我們要買什麼我們要買什麼然後我們要蓋橋等等的這個是我們的需求能夠滿足我們的需求的很多啊各式各樣的廠商都可能會滿足這個需求 |
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162.694 |
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但我們現在卻一直在道果為因說我看到你之前有這個需求所以你匡列了這個預算但是有東西還沒有到那我們以後就不要匡列了難道我們會因為這樣就沒有要重建的需求嗎那以軍購來講我們的需求是要建立這個不對稱的戰力 |
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那照理說我們要建立不對稱戰力這件事情的需求從頭到尾都不會有任何的改變啊那我們需要這個不對稱戰力的需求所需要的金額就是長這個樣子 |
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194.11 |
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221.332 |
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而這個金額當然有可能會因為廠商的變動然後這個金額可能會高高低低到做付款的時候可能也會有一些不管是立法院的刪減還是對方的問題這都可能發生但是不影響到我們說我們的需求有1.25兆我們要來做這件事情所以我覺得這件事情還是要來跟國人釐清就是說我們一直在聽到一些各式各樣的說法但這些說法其實都不符合事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
222.293 |
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232.846 |
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但我現在在裡面我現在非常擔心的一點就是因為在這一次我們通過的同時其實是刪減了將近四成多快五成的這樣的一個金額 |
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233.789 |
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262.953 |
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那他其實重點不是金額而是他有一些項目不給購買那你目前來講沒有購買的項目就像上面寫的有指管的系統有無人機有台美合作然後還有一些彈藥的儲備這一些都是不對稱戰力的一環但是我們在立法院的時候在條例的時候就直接把它拿掉了就好像在馬太安你說你要買農業機具他直接在條例就把你農業機具拿掉說你要重建這個家園不准你買農業機具是這樣的意思 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
263.593 |
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283.051 |
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但我覺得這件事情很危險因為重點是理由我從以前到現在每一次國防外交我聽到他們講的理由永遠都是這個是商購 這個是偽製我們不要放進去那就又回到我剛剛講的我們今天國家有國防戰力的需求這件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
283.752 |
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311.103 |
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跟你到底是軍購還是商貨還是偽製完全沒有任何關係啊那是你買東西的方式嘛就是說這就好像說我今天呢要跟媽媽說啊我需要一百塊我想要去買晚餐那這一個一百塊到底是用linepay還是用現金還是用信用卡支付我都一樣我的需求是一百塊我要填飽我的肚子所以你要怎麼去買這些東西照理說不應該是你今天在條例上刪除的理由嘛 |
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311.815 |
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334.85 |
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所以我在想說會不會有更深層的理由所以在這邊呢我先問一個小問題就是這一張圖上面最上面那個指管系統這個指揮管理的系統非常的重要我之前在描述的時候一直在講說這就像是一個大腦我們買那些不管是我們有彈藥我們有飛彈那個是手腳但一定要有一個大腦可以指揮嘛需要有一個AI整合的系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
336.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
347.354 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那我想問不然部長院長都可以回答就是這個AI的指揮管理的這個系統佔我們1.25兆的金額是佔非常多嗎還是佔一小部分而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
348.382 |
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365.703 |
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就金額來講並不是在這裡面算是高的金額但是是屬於我們整體的防衛作戰需求裡面的一個關鍵性的一個項目那這些這樣子的一個部分如果遭到刪減的話這個整個部隊在立念會有形成中斷的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
367.104 |
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380.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個就是像大腦癱瘓的意思嘛你有一個指揮管理的系統結果你不能讓你空有這些飛彈結果你那個指揮管理的系統沒有辦法有效的運作這就是一個問題然後它的金額我們在機密會議什麼之類我們都看過那個確實的金額 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
381.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
399.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
他佔這個1.25兆並不是很大的一個數目所以我現在因為最近我們在審國防的總預算嘛然後我就看我在看這些提案的時候我就發現你們看這邊有陸軍的有海軍的有空軍的有資通電的有參謀本部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
399.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
420.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這一些全部都是跟通信電子跟資管你看到右邊數過來第二欄有凍結百分之三十的好幾個甚至有全案凍結的然後也有直接減煉一億的這一個所謂的通信電子跟資管裡面非常重要的一塊就叫做職管戰力 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
420.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
442.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
因為我們今天要做指揮要做監督需要通訊嘛我們需要系統嘛所以連我們本來喔連我們本來有的擁有的這個指揮監督的這個系統裡面所有的年度的預算已經遭到針對了可以看到這一個表格他是完全在針對我們的指揮管理系統不要凍結要刪除 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
444.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
465.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這看起來不太正常也就是說從特別條例不通過這個明明就不是佔很大金額的一個指揮管理的一個統一的AI的這個系統一直到我們年度預算跟這個相關的預算都直接要擋下來說這個是要監督我實在不太相信因為這個太精準了 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
465.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
484.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
就是你等於明明有一個指揮管理的系統這些所有的東西才可以運作他就說我其他東西我給你買沒有關係但我不給你指揮我不給你下指令那這個是一個問題委員的邏輯以及剛剛講的這個這樣論述非常非常清楚就像我們的AI新時代建設一樣我們最頂端的那個就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
485.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
512.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
軟體的登峰計畫因為我們現在有很好的硬體製造如果我們沒有軟體的整合這些就只是製造硬體供別人使用而已所以這個AI輔助系統所謂這個絕感這個部分就是我們所說的把它整合在一起因此這些的部分是整個大腦系統中的中樞神經有了它我們所有的這些裝備我們可以把它串聯起來成為一個有效的防衛 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
514.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
531.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
再來我們還有引進高科技AI的擊殺鏈我們就可以有反擊的能力甚至我們未來發展製圖產業我們就不用步步受制於一定要向外採購而且發展整個的產業發展起來所以這個是極端重要的一環我說三塊拼圖缺一不可 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
532.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
548.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
所以這就是我覺得很奇怪的一件事情因為從頭到尾不是說有沒有金額的問題而是說就好像我今天買一台電腦他說我都讓你組裝滑鼠鍵盤記憶體主機板我什麼都給你買結果我不給你灌Window那請問這台電腦要怎麼運作 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
549.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
578.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
又或者說呢我給你慣了結果呢我不讓你有防火牆我讓你拿走了連線的能力這個聽起來都不正常啊所以這個指揮管理的系統我認為被針對這是一個很嚴重社會必須要關注的事情但不是只有這一件而已剛剛我們還看到我們在特別條例的時候立法院這邊又把剛剛講的無人機產業嘛就是把這些偽製啊等等之類的又把它拿掉那我就回到然後他們那時候講的一句話我記得一直在講說什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
579.552 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
607.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
說你就把這個編到年度預算去就好啦但是第一個我們如果為了要扶植產業它本來就是多年期的計畫這是第一個第二個就是今天所謂的這個無人機它能夠 金額它所需要的要能夠編到年度預算那個年度預算的那個額度已經沒那麼多了嘛只剩84嘛好 但是我就想說沒關係就像按照你們講的把它編到年度預算去但我們就來看接下來的年度預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
608.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
626.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這一個是我們今年的年度預算跟無人載具有關的可以看到陸軍司令部這一個全案檢列7億因為這個是屬於多...這一個是因為有好幾年的我記得它總額是8億直接拿掉7億 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
627.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
637.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
而且這裡面還包含什麼呢它還包含了這個裡面我去看它的細項它包含了就是你的無人機有了之後你要怎麼去訓練它們怎麼飛連這個都拿掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
641.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
662.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個就莫名其妙啦你如果說好啊就編到年度預算了的確我們過往的年度預算國防部跟經濟部有過一些合作還在做一些模型機然後想看要往哪個方向前進然後還有這個你看最下面這一項軍備局的研發因為你要研發你你才有辦法知道我們在國內我們到底能夠做到什麼程度嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
665.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
687.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
按照他們講的已經年度預算有一些在這裡面啊結果看起來也是被針對啊直接可以減列五億可以直接減列七億這個又是一個針對性那就表示是騙術嘛你在審特別條例的時候跟別人講說你編到年度預算你在年度預算的時候你針對無人機你還是砍啊所以表示他們根本就沒有想要無人機無人載具在這邊發展 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
689.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
708.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們都為人父母我們希望小孩子有足夠的營養有時候給他正餐有時候給他點心你不能正餐也拿掉一點點心也拿掉一點但是小孩就沒有營養的足夠國防也是一樣我們有的用公務預算有的用特別預算為的是特別預算他為了特別的正式需求 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
710.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
734.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
比較長時間穩定的一個預算的供給另外排除一些債務舉債的一個限制他一定有他特殊必須性那麼對公務預算就不會太嚴重的排擠到一般的民生一般的經濟一般的科技發展這是我們在財務規劃上所必須要做的衡量所以委員很清楚但是一定要我們把它編載全部編載公務預算那真的是有困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
734.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
755.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那我們要編特別預算又要遭受每一次這樣重複的一再的但是我還是認為只要心存台灣真的要保衛台灣就給小孩子營養就給國家國安這個心情如果大家一致的話那台灣將可以一直永續的生存下去因為我覺得當時要提這個特別預算除了它是多年期以外 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
757.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
773.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
它是一個總計畫除了這個之外其實目的就是不想要去排擠公務預算我們想要讓社福想要讓教育文化的預算都能夠維持在一定的水準所以才會去用特別預算你叫他把它擠回到原本的公務預算到最後就形成排擠效應了 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
773.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
790.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
行程派起效應之後那他們又有話講所以這就變成是一個套套邏輯從頭到尾他們在特別條例裡面講的所宣稱的事情我光是看他們這一次提出來的提案就跟他們在特別條例講出來的是矛盾的所以希望就是因為國防預算馬上就要審了 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
791.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
817.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那我覺得國防部真的也必須要堅實的要捍衛這些立場因為這個是慢慢在侵蝕我們國防最重要的部位如果這些事情不斷再發生下去的話不要說什麼不對稱戰力了我們連原本戰力的保持都會出現問題我都還沒有講到彈藥喔因為彈藥自從我們開始不管是因為我們的14天的訓練還有我們現在151的訓練內容的改良這一些事情都讓我們的彈藥變得越來越重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
819.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
841.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
但是連這件事情在好好的能夠在國防外交委員會討論都已經不可得最後我還是要再提一個就是台美合作因為台美合作照樣也有全案簡列四千萬這一個台美共同研發台美共同合作因為台美共同合作這一次呢也一樣的在我們的特別條例被立法院拿掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
842.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
867.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
美國其實是我們很堅實的這個民主的同盟然後他所能夠提供的這些技術還有移轉對我們來講是十分的重要所以台美合作不是只有在特別條例裡面而已我們原本的跟台美之間的交流雙邊的交流人員的交流這個本來也都在國防部內部的這個預算編列裡年度預算的編列 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
868.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
895.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
結果我看到非常精準又照樣又繼續提出這一個那你不是說不要再特別條例要到年度預算嗎就你到年度預算的時候你又再繼續提出來然後要把這個交流砍斷這個對我來說這個針對性實在是太高了所以從他們那時候的文字的使用把飛鴻供應鏈拿掉把台灣之盾拿掉就剛剛那個防空系統把無人產業拿掉這個第一個他不想讓我們來複製 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
896.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
911.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
台灣內部的產業他也不想要有台美的合作他也不想要有雙邊的交流然後還要把非紅供應鏈特別拿掉這整件事情對我們的影響實在十分巨大那因為時間的關係是否院長或部長再做一個總結 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
913.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
932.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我想剛剛委員已經說明很清楚也就是說我們台美的共同這一個我想聽過精密專報都知道它是非常的重要那跟既有的這個台美的這個交流它有更重要的一個意義所以我們很希望這個台美共同研發採購這個項目好 謝謝謝謝沈委員 |