| IVOD_ID |
168974 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168974 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-29T13:18:41+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-29T13:31:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:19 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6301273cb2dfee8456fc475a9dc57ca2c71d97a3abd72074d59f04ba8a0a425760397b764e3c89ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:18:41 - 13:31:00 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：（上午9時起）
審查
一、委員羅廷瑋等43人擬具「空氣污染防制法第二十七條、第二十八條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。
二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「空氣污染防制法第三十條條文修正草案」案。
【詢答及處理】
【4月29日上午9時起及下午2時30分起為一次會】） |
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好 謝謝主席 有請部長柯前部長部長 台灣目前正發生空氣不正義事件那就是已經停機除役的賣電 |
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一號機跟三號機即將以短期調度的名義借勢還魂這事情你知道嗎?知道我4月9號在委員會質詢那上週三又到經濟委員會然後我直接請教了國務部長我特別說你沒說短期調度嘛那承諾當時是五六七嘛那有沒有人可以保證不會到八九十 |
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38.304 |
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然後部長打我是這樣他原本說不會後來又看了台電董事長之後又把那句話吞回去也是這樣啦所以基本上 |
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這個美伊戰爭到底到什麼時候沒有人可以說的定我們都很清楚那你用短期的調度講這五六七又不敢保證是不是有八九十然後講說賣電的合約是到二零二七那簡單講也就是到今年的年底 |
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那就不是所謂的五六七的短期調度這三個月嘛然後管部長又講了一段話這對外講的喔他說只要賣電可以來做這樣的一個處理就可以降低中火的用煤量這什麼邏輯?鐵粉裡面空氣鐵粉裡面空氣款來挖中火的降載站在環保環境部的立場看待這事情 |
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101.26 |
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怎麼運營,不曉得要不要講句公道話 |
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包委員當然以環境部的立場當然如果說盡量不要用燒煤的做法是我們的期待的一個目標所以我們也會持續的請經濟部跟台電審慎評估它的必要性跟它的一個時機啦齁那因為它的法規現在來說的話還是在有效期以內而且它現在已經獲得雲林縣政府的有條件的同意那未來呢我們的我們的角色現在因為這個是他們是主管機關他已經獲得雲林縣政府有條件的同意 |
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137.108 |
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148.294 |
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所以目前未來我們會要責成我們的地方的環保機關主管機關要嚴密的監控、監督它的空污排放數據市長你剛剛導入我是說這個確定雲林縣政府答應了然後是有條件的答應是不是這個有條件是指什麼有條件那條件內容是什麼這個要不要請問市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
160.579 |
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174.85 |
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用煤量沒有超過114年的水準,就是275萬公噸用煤量不得超過114年對總統的275萬噸不能超過275萬噸,好那我跟市主請教一下你們有沒有掌握當時的用煤量275萬噸是一二三三個機組燃燒出來的量,對不對對,總共總共嘛,對不對,好那二二七組已經拆掉了是 |
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190.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
195.364 |
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然後一號機跟三號機的有條件不得超過114年度的275噸這有道理嗎 |
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201.813 |
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209.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這個有道理嗎也就是說當時的123這3號機組每一個機組如果270噸來講就是每一個機組有90噸嘛對不對那他已經把2號機拆掉了所以就剩下1號機跟3號機然後1號機跟3號機要去承載原有的每號機的90噸現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
225.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
231.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
然後現在變成多少變成每一號機組要再增加原本的90噸再加上45噸就變成1351351加3兩號機組加起來就是變成270噸這樣有道理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
240.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
247.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
部長你能不能簡單討我一下,這樣有道理嗎?原本是三號,三個基礎在承載一年275萬噸現在變成兩個基礎在承載275萬噸這個到底有沒有道理? |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
258.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
279.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
部長你要慎重答問我,站在黃之空的主管機關是貴單位嗎當然對我們來說是希望說能夠盡量的減少是我們的主要的目的,社會環境主管機關啦但是目前這個還是要讓經濟部他們因為他們有這個電力這個韌性的一個需求來做這個事情柏定你是環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
282.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
301.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
你不是以前環保署,你不是以前經濟部環保署對我們來說我們是希望說經濟部他需要有電力的需求嘛對不對有電力才有辦法去供給產業面的這樣的一個期待嘛這個我們都很清楚嘛但是空氣的防治、污染基本上主軸機關是在你嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
303.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
312.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
過去是三個機組 一二三在承載南美的總TOTAL你剛剛講的114年度就270幾嘛對不對那現在已經拆了二號機 剩下兩個機組為什麼要承載相同的114年度的總TOTAL的南美的量這個道理何在 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
324.397 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
346.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個專政環境部你要怎麼處理要怎麼應應包委我們對我們的立場我們早上也大概有一個承諾就是說我們會透過空瓶的模擬各方面也把這個風險性如果這兩個要這三個月的增加對附近特別是雲林民眾的風險性我們來做一個評估希望一個月內一到兩個月內有一個初步的結果出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
347.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
369.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那我們會來幫把關空氣品質跟健康的這個兩個因素這是我們要關注的焦點部長你不應該有條件啦地方政府在有條件你也跟人家有條件中部的空氣品質在這幾年經由你率領的環境部啦上上下下大家共同努力的情況之下不管是移動的不管是固定的都有明顯的下降 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
369.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
385.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那你現在又要有條件去認可這個在賣店的兩號機組然後渾燒比過去更大的藍莓量那你說你有條件的你再跟人家有什麼條件的去認可這件事情沒有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
386.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
400.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
沒有道理一旦這個地方的空氣品質又越來越劇烈然後空污的狀況一直整個我們看到的數字在提高你要怎麼對人民負責我剛剛已經點出這個不可思議的這種有條件的同意三號機一檔燒兩百七十幾 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
414.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
420.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
兩個基,兩個基礎一樣要燒同樣的量那你們可以同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
424.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
448.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
不對勁我不吃雞皮疙瘩,這個事情大家會沒有沒了,我絕對不容許這種事情發生。那一天4月9號在委員會的時候,應該你沒有列席。我知道,我知道委員的想法。那次也應該沒有列席,那我必須跟你講,那個地方當時是非常離譜惡劣,之前是燃燒石油窖。 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
451.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
472.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
石油車連印度政府都不愛愛,是自愛物喔那是在這裡說很久,說了兩次,連院會也說了兩次民進黨執政完之後就說要把它禁掉了那一直沒有做,是我們在這邊修了法律,是我提案的提案完之後,還要經過協商,然後進到院會然後三讀通過,還要經過總統府公告你知道那個延長的拖了多少時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
480.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
498.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這三號機組原本就全部應該拆掉了拖拖拉拉不拆掉只拆掉一個二號機組那你現在又有條件地方政府有條件我沒有辦法去救著他們大盤進步不能這麼做啦那次你在這邊我也拜託你們真的不要這麼做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
499.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
517.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
真的不要這麼做啦因為你們的短期你們的短期五六七你們的短期就不是五六七嘛因為你不敢保證嘛保證美伊戰爭到什麼時候嘛國務部長也沒有辦法答覆我嘛所以你們的短期調度就有可能五六七八九十嘛十十一十二嘛我為什麼要接受 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
519.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
545.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那你這我跟人家講的短期調度就三個月啊那你不敢保證說三個月就結束了啊那你憑什麼跟人家講短期你憑什麼跟人家講任性你哪來的任性沒有啊謝謝委員關心這個問題啊我們非常關心而且委員過去一直致力在空氣汙染的改善的這個部分那也因為這委員會大家一個督促之下所以台 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
546.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
571.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
台塑化的這個台塑的這個賣料的13號機組他現在是超臨界supercritical的所以他基本上跟過去大家沒有改變之前呢他的燃料的來源或是他的所謂的排汙的這個部分是稍微有降低那另外一個部分剛剛委員是有提到一點是事實上三部機組275啦那你今天兩部機組絕對不可能燒到275 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
573.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
588.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
然後更何況台電公司現在跟台塑的這個所謂的簽訂的緊急的合約是三個月所以基本上的話你說好假設我們來看的話因為一個機組發電量是固定的他 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
589.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
608.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你未給他太多的燃煤的話事實上他也不可能來產生更大的一個電能所以基本上275除以3大概是三分之二左右再12分之3左右的這個量大概是我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
609.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
638.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
初步上面我們現在估出來的一個部分那另外一個工作我們也希望說中東的戰士我們盡量去找尋我們能源的韌性來去讓委員的擔憂把它減少市長市長你的專業在秩序我非常敬佩然後你也非常用心然後包含電子下線你都非常投入但這種燃煤的事情我要提醒你你達富爾真的要很小心 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
639.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
654.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
有很多事情他們幹得出來你不一定想得到你不用去替他們答覆說275除以3不會等275除以2你不用替他們答覆這種事情然後什麼叫超臨界你知道他們燒什麼東西嗎你知道他們燒什麼東西嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
662.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
689.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
請部長跟次長要小心啦反正我是反對到底你們要去盤整你們要整理去盤整你那個短期的調度你就是想別的地方你就不要再想那個地方你一旦想那個地方你們絕對會有沒有辦法承受的事情會發生啦我再度提醒好我再度提醒然後對輿論人也不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
691.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
716.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
坦白講空氣汙染兌分的關係已經上海解雇了好不容易都搞了 時間都搞了跟村這兩個 只是一撒雞肉拖而已你們就把手底下去我是覺得政府不應該憑你行事啦然後那個燃燒的量你們自己去思考清楚絕對不是陳副市長你掌握的這個狀況我真的是善意提醒這個事情如果你們硬要做下去真的會 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
719.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
736.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
會比馬鈴薯會更嚴重而且我希望環境部環境部真的要更有更強大的power不能讓這個事情發生好謝謝好謝謝委員的建議謝謝謝謝劉建國委員的質詢接下來請楊耀文 |