| IVOD_ID |
168883 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168883 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-5-8 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期第8次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
8 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期第8次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-28T09:00:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-28T09:31:09+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:30:34 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/35437261a170eb038a28998742ae259966e90e72df29f72f7b9a1196f8d5921befa55c43c43e31e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
牛煦庭 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:00:35 - 09:31:09 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-28T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第5會期第8次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院民進黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：「一、立法院不分朝野堅定支持我國總統進行對外國是訪問，堅持台灣人有走向世界，與世界各國交往合作的權利。二、嚴正譴責中華人民共和國政府以脅迫手段迫使第三國撤銷我國元首專機飛航許可之粗暴行為，違反聯合國憲章、國際民航公約精神、外交關係慣例，並構成對第三國主權之公然干涉。三、促請外交部、駐外館處、國際民航組織（ICAO）之友我代表及所有可行管道，將本事件列入國際紀錄，且尋求國際民航組織、聯合國人權理事會等多邊機制之關注與因應，並就中華人民共和國對我國長期之脅迫行為，研擬完整之法律文件與政策白皮書，於年度外交報告中專章說明。四、呼籲世界上所有理念相近之民主夥伴，正視中華人民共和國對他國實施經濟與外交脅迫之行為，將其納入各國『反脅迫』（anti-coercion）之政策工具與立法檢討。並以具體行動聲援我國維護正當國際交往之權利，共同捍衛以規則為基礎之國際秩序、自由開放之國際航空體系，以及中小型國家免於威權霸凌之主權空間。中華民國是主權獨立的民主國家，任何外部勢力之脅迫、封鎖或打壓，皆不能改變我國走向世界、與民主夥伴並肩同行之決心。本院全體委員將超越黨派立場，團結一致，捍衛國家主權、民主自由與國際尊嚴。」是否有當？請公決案等2案。二、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。三、同意權之行使事項：本院司法及法制、內政兩委員會報告審查「總統咨，為最高檢察署檢察總長邢泰釗任期於115年5月7日屆滿，茲依法院組織法第66條第2項規定，提名徐錫祥為最高檢察署檢察總長，咨請同意案」案。（5月5日上午）四、審計長列席報告中華民國113年度中央政府總決算審核報告等案審核經過並備諮詢。（5月5日下午）五、4月24日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。） |
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謝謝主席,佐院長有請請佐院長備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
21.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
41.665 |
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六位好院長早安這個本期的質詢一向都是主題式的只有一個題目我們講好講滿今天的題目是我們到底在維護公眾利益還是這個過程中包含很多的政治私心我要繼續追問台美關稅談判以及台美ART貿易協議的相關的問題請院長做好準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
42.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
69.005 |
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首先我們從這個馬鈴薯之亂開始說起最近這段時間大家都非常非常的訝異因為突然之間看起來檢疫的這個流程顯然是有很明顯的一個放寬過去在加工馬鈴薯加工食品如果有查出發芽的狀況原則上是採取整批退運也就是我們全面是用從嚴把關的方式站在思安的角度設計相關的行政流程 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
69.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
96.002 |
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但是最近突然之間風雲變色要變成用相對開放的方式改成竹坯茶宴或者是所謂您曾經講過的竹科茶宴我覺得很奇怪我請問一下院長馬鈴薯之亂或者是馬鈴薯標準檢疫流程的改變跟台美貿易協定ART有沒有直接或間接的關係請院長回答並沒有最直接的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
97.603 |
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118.751 |
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文字裡面他只提到說進口從美國進馬鈴薯這個如果要變更現在的這個相關的內容的話要經過雙方的同意只講到這句話而已那我就覺得並沒有這次細節來做任何的一個規範我跟委員補充一下所有的貿易的進出口的一個檢疫一定是雙邊經過諮商討論確認以後才會執行對你講的很好 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
122.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
149.776 |
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雙邊諮商討論之後然後也許互相交換然後做出一些規則的修正跟改變對不對但是你這個馬鈴薯規則的修訂是在談判之前還是談判之後我跟委員報告這個議題其實在過去兩三年我們就持續跟美方在做這樣的討論那我在這邊再次強調我們的所有的標準並沒有放寬我們也不會讓發芽的馬鈴薯或是有 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
150.436 |
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173.148 |
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有讀的你們所謂的有那個節檢的這些馬鈴薯進口這是我想確定的只是在整個的一個邊境檢查的流程中做了改變那這個改變最主要的一個目的就是說因為在歷次的0.6%的這樣的一個比例不好意思我要打斷你啦因為你這些說法其實我們都聽非常多的啦 |
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173.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
198.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那這是我們真實的說法我希望委員能夠相信但我今天的問題啊不是要跟你爭執這些政策上面的細節我要問的是這件事情跟談判的關係啊左院長這個簽約台美對等貿易協定發布簽署相關的新聞其實在今年的2月13號我在我們投影片最下面但是你農業部修正相關的檢疫條件其實在1月的時候你就已經先預作儲備 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
199.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
228.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
然後很奇怪的是在你預作處理的同時你在ART裡面還剛好就這麼寫著這個未來如果這個檢疫條件如果要再修正也許就要國內壓力啊 食安的需求等等要再修正的時候你也不能片片修正囉我開放的時候我可以片片開放可是我現在修正因為有個ART放在這個地方所以修正之後啊我還要雙邊代表會商欸 這個院長這個感覺啊 犧牲食安於前啊旱死車門於後啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
229.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
246.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我請問你這個在整個台美談判的時候這馬鈴薯是什麼門票嗎還是什麼交換的條件我還是跟委員報告我剛才說的雙邊諮商的部分那因為美國人是說一定要跟他討論那我們也會跟他討論所以是雙邊諮商的一個文字的一個敘述 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
246.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
264.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
人家現在你現在是放寬人家比較容易進來你如果要再加嚴之上人家會同意嗎所有的所有的進出口一定是雙邊智商討論到一個共識才會去執行所以基本上你就很樂意開放對不對不我就是要問這個事情跟談判的關係院長院長回答我問題就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
265.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
289.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個照理來講如果他是在協議裡面的一部分比如說我在協議裡面我開放了相關的這個檢疫標準我換到了其他比如說特定項目的降稅等等他是一個對等的狀態的時候你好好說服國內那也就算了對不對但是這個事情很奇怪啊就是協議裡面這不是協議內容是在協議之前你就先讓步然後協議的時候你把車門焊死說我不能再改這很奇怪 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
291.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
308.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
請問這個院長我們在馬鈴薯開放的時候我們急著展現誠意嗎還是什麼 你的理由是什麼你為什麼要先處理這件事情而不是把它放在嫌疑交換的一部分委員剛剛的時間序我們也看得出來這不是一朝一夕所形成的雙方對於進口馬鈴薯這個流程檢驗的一個變更 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
313.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
327.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
他的流程跟檢驗這不是一朝一夕形成的所以他是經過多年雙方的各種的談判內容跟正式的談判是無關的所以在這個之前就已經談了很久若干因為我們也不希望我們跟國際的標準國際的規範國際的做法不對齊嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
330.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
353.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以這個也是對習但是很重要一點並沒有放寬或放鬆我們還是在進口美方進口的時候他還有嚴格的標準進到我們國內來我們還是要檢驗我剛剛跟部長講過我也跟你講一樣話不好意思因為今天時間有限我沒有要聽你講這些政策的細節但你講跟談判無關如果跟談判無關怎麼剛好ART裡面你就寫了規則未來改變要經過雙邊會上 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
354.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
382.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
政務的推動每天都在不同的角度不同的方向不同的面向一直在推動很多事情這個到了談雙方對進口馬鈴薯的細節談到了一個成熟的時候自然這個農業部他就會依照預告的工作我就問你嘛如果今天你本來就在進行一個ART的談判你把它放在ART的談判裡面作為開放的某一個條件可以換到別的利益的時候這樣難道不會比較好嗎你幹嘛先開放於前嘛我講這不合理的地方在這裡嘛之前就在談了不是在談這個關稅時候才開始談的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
384.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
397.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
對嘛好那你之前都在談那你到底換了什麼是你如果不開放這馬鈴薯美國人就不跟你繼續談判不跟你談ARD不跟你簽ARD是嗎他是我們的門票嗎還是你基於哪一樣的一些政治的目的你要展現誠意你總要有個說法吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
397.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
419.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我說我們就必須要有科學的根據跟對齊國際的做法那這個就是國際標準科學根據啊他國也這麼做那我們也希望我們去到其他國家的農業產品也不要被這樣子非常有這個不合理或是一個符合不符合雙方往來的一個對待你到底是為了雙方往來的需要還是你這麼主動的要擁抱所謂的國際標準啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
423.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
449.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
國際標準必須要對齊嘛國際標準必須要對齊好沒關係你這個回答大家都可受公平因為這個題目也吵很久了但是我要提醒你但是重點是我們沒有對國內的食品安全有任何的放鬆這個對齊國際標準的前提是我們不會放鬆國內的安全標準你認為這個沒有任何的放鬆嗎沒有本來可以整批退運現在不要整批退運你認為這不叫放鬆沒有我不跟你爭執這個事啦現在進來的每一顆都還是乾乾淨淨健健康康的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
449.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
472.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
他都沒有長牙沒有發霉沒有帶土不過院長我真的是有點擔心問你這樣的回答沒關係我們後面還有相關的題目今天我覺得很奇怪就是我們今天在談ART這件事情已經不是第一次了這期在這個場合我已經是第四次在這個地方跟政府各個官員就教台美談判的議題包含我們第三會期的總諮詢第四會期的總諮詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
473.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
490.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
關稅談判的專案報告那時候是跟政府院長加上今天是第四次院長你還記不記得我在過去幾次質詢的時候我曾經提醒過你的是什麼有關於我們在談判的節奏把握我有沒有提醒你要注意一些事情你還記得嗎委員提的很多請總委再把重點再說一下好 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
491.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
508.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那我就放給你看好了好不好我們就放影片現在我提醒一下我們的談判團隊現在要把握幾個談判的變數所以我們一直在講掌握各地的政情跟國際局勢是很重要的這美國最高法院的判決現在看起來風向對於川普政府好像不太有利很有可能從他們的大法官的角度這個片面由總統發布課徵關稅的舉動是會受到衝擊的 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
511.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
521.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
同樣美國國會現在進入了癱瘓的狀態很多共和黨的議員也不見得支持川普的政策甚至對於很多關稅的案子在國會是封殺的請問院長知不知道這個事 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
524.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
549.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
訊息萬變我們也不敢做任何的揣測不過我們有做事先的各種模擬的分析在怎麼樣的情況底下我們應該有進一步的什麼的因應以前我們大家都很急躁說要談我那時候講說不見得快速談是好的因為局勢一直都在變對不對那現在有一個機遇是這個是美國國內的一個壓力跟一個變數把握這樣的變數其實在談判上我們稍微有好不容易一點點籌碼我不敢講多 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
550.545 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
573.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那這個時候談判的節奏你們會照常進行嗎還是要加速還是要暫緩還是要做什麼樣的打算有把握嗎目前的節奏包括經濟部都很辛苦他一直要跟產業界講因為產業希望我們趕快談定趕快落點落在哪裡但是因為各種局勢啊現在的變化經濟部花了很長的時間跟產業講說我們已經準備好了所有的產業支持的方案所以一旦 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
574.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
601.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
到了該弱點發生的那一天我們就馬上會上路我提醒一下啦現在比如日本韓國等他簽了都簽了嘛承諾就承諾了即便最後關稅被沒收那個協議都還在對不對但我們現在是有點機會因為還沒談成啊那如果有變數的話談判的節奏怎麼捏拿對中華民國產業的利益國家的利益是最好的我提醒院長要做好準備因為啊如果面對這種局勢的瞬息萬變即便是美國國內有它不利的因素我們當然要把握啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
602.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
631.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
對不對國安上面大家是好夥伴是盟友對不對但產業上我們不容任何威脅這也是應該要堅持的如果我們對於這樣的局勢沒有任何因應變化跟策略的調整的話那人民就很難安心了好不好我先提醒關稅的事情到這個地方善用一下機遇現在美國國內的狀況是我們可以利用的籌碼關稅談判的我希望看到一點新的或者是更多的進展因為你舉不出任何利多你只是在止損的情況下談的時候那他當然就是單邊主義我們就是被欺負的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
633.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
649.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
院長這是2025年11月7號上一個會期的總諮詢我們一樣在這個位置你站這邊 我站這邊大家在討論這個關稅的進度我那時候就很清楚啦你剛剛都看到影片大家都看到影片提醒你說最高法院的判決對川普不見得很有利 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
649.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
669.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那時候你的回答是說做了充分的模擬隨時有應變的準備我今天之所以要重新回來談ART問題就在這裡了因為在整個ART談判裡其實大家都非常清楚唯一對我國可以稱作是利益的事情恐怕只有一件事叫做免於被對等關稅疊加所威脅 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
671.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
699.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
你的整個談判你的目的是不是就是這個我們爭取到合理的關稅而且我就是擔心嘛被對等關稅疊加然後你造成你跟競爭夥伴的差距競爭力下降對不對這是你們一路以來都在說的為什麼要讓步這些東西是為了要減緩這個狀況要免於被威脅所以當然要好好談這件事所以上次總諮詢我提醒你啊因為最高法院大法官的判決對於美國這個關稅政策來講是巨大的變數啊這個判決一旦成立 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
701.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
708.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
對等關稅就消滅我們在談判的對手最大的武器跟籌碼就消滅了所以我們可能可以找到談判的利基啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
709.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
738.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
好 院長我現在問你啦你說你有萬全的模擬跟分析對不對你有沒有模擬到當初我講的最高法院沒收了對等關稅這項武器 有嗎其實在談判的後段還沒有談妥這個ART的時候美國的訴訟已經存在了我們那時候就預判到如果這個訴訟對行政部門不利的話那他可能會採取其他的法律工具我們有緣判到這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
739.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
765.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
只是那個時候沒有真的把它當作一個已經發生的但是預判的工作都有做所以那在你的其中一個劇本之一嘛我覺得第二個不合理的我剛剛講馬鈴薯的先開放有很奇怪我覺得不太合理第二個不合理的地方就在這裡啦你如果明明就有所準備你的談判團隊如果是有所準備的話那你怎麼會先簽了協議之後才過一個禮拜人家判決就出來了勒 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
766.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
789.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你對於他判決的可能的時間點沒有任何掌握嗎我們都在這裡我們無法掌握哪一天美國會判決我們只知道他有一定的時間判決會出來那我們如果提早在那個判決之前做好那至少我們可以確保一下我們在談判過程當中所有團隊的努力把我們想爭取的那事實也證明我們爭取到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
790.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
817.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
合理的關稅不疊加還有很多的豁免這個都爭取到了問題是現在對等關稅已經消滅沒關係之後後面再講現在我們是要確認這個內容的存在以及確保我們已經獲得了相對的待遇因為最後產生出來比這血淋淋的結果就是你讓東讓西之後結果你公布你張燈結彩你說你談得很棒你很努力這我都不否認我不會否認團隊很辛苦但問題是八天之後短短八天就豬羊變色這是一件很難看的事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
818.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
845.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
如果你已經預先掌握了有可能最高法院他就有判決是有變數你戰術性的延後一下公布的時間或簽署的時間這個本來就是這個才是你因應沙盤推演應該拿出來的理性決策嘛而且如果變數還沒有完全落板你就高調宣傳這難道你是模擬之中想要採納的事嗎你到底在搞大內宣還是在認真談判啊委員事後當然我們可以做這種的一個分析啦但是你記得當時我也說過所有產業界都希望政府趕快談好 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
846.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
866.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
把這關稅談定讓大家有所依據訂單怎麼收怎麼去都有所依據這是當時的氣氛讓我們是一直在推這樣的一網間走你可以跟其他人講說你事後怎麼怎麼講但我這事前就講了我11月7號我就提醒你債錢所以我覺得這是很不合理我相信我們中華民國的談判團隊不會沒有預料到這件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
867.415 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
890.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
但沒有預料到這件事卻沒有做出合理的決定我覺得很奇怪我們的決定就是在那個時候爭取最佳的利益那我們也做到了那現在我們在確認這個利益的存在講以前的事也沒什麼意思來現在的狀況你總是要面對嘛來世界各國啊對於這個對等關稅被裁定違憲無效之後他們的反應是什麼院長你隨便舉幾個例子就好大部分的國家都希望能夠爭取同樣的待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
890.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
919.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
同樣的待遇什麼叫同樣的待遇就是在談判已經談好的內容都能夠確定我認為日本大部分的國家都是這樣只有幾個國家他認為他不想去履行這樣的運動來我一個一個唸給你聽來印度啊本來印度是還沒談完的嘛欸農業部長請回我看你一直站在那邊我沒有要為難你的意思沒關係你可以先回去坐沒事的等一下再上來就好印度談判沒有談完對不對他沒談完的時候他怎麼辦他遇到大法官判決他怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
919.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
924.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
印度政府說他當然期待關稅可以有效調降但是貿易代表團傾向觀察判決的後續發展再決定是否要進一步推進談判來歐盟的反應怎麼樣歐盟遇到這樣的事歐盟是不是跟美國有先協議歐洲議會怎麼回應 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
944.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
961.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
歐盟他們本來就希望已經談好了不要再有所變動沒有再有所變動嗎那為什麼歐洲因為他這個122以後他現在是課的是10%的暫時性關稅那跟原來歐盟有一點點差異但是歐盟還是希望說他可以享受到最 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
963.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
976.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
歐洲議會是直接講了要暫緩審批相關的協議因為說裁決後的計畫要採取相應的措施也當然要重新保持密切的溝通所以我們在看嘛 對不對法國總統馬克宏說要評估相關影響並且做出合理適當的調整措施加拿大說要努力幫助企業跟相關工人 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
988.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1007.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
即便是日本,日本當然是非常親美的一個國家,他也講說動搖了日美關稅協議的前提基礎但是因為跟美國關係很重要,所以還是要加強相關的一個關係你剛剛馬上就舉日本為例,我就把它講得清楚一點南韓政府說要以國家利益為首要任務,重新審視簽訂的貿易協議 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1010.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1021.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
這我就不多講了世界各國的共通性是什麼我當然要謀定而厚重我要看一下對等關稅消滅之後新的局勢之後再做有效因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1023.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1043.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
對不對 你現在問題是這樣 院長啊那你剛剛也講 部長剛剛也急著講 我們也是這樣對不對我們要謀定合作 對吧 是嘛 對不對現在狀況是什麼 你現在還講 因為我們在新聞界或者是在第一時間政府的回應的時候我覺得你回的也不乾脆啊 你說什麼這個相關的談判還是對我們很有利的 相關的文本還是什麼什麼 你講雷大隊有的沒的 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1044.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1047.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我們講法不同但是我們的目的是相同我們說我們要確認雙方已經談好的R的內容確保我們所得到的優惠的待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1061.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1082.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
能夠秩序的下去 這個就是摩地我剛剛已經講了嘛 整個ART裡面你談的最大的重點就是你避免被課徵對等關稅嘛避免被課徵對等關稅之間就達成 因為他違憲了嘛那請問新的利多是什麼我要問的是這個啊報告委員 因為美國他還在重建他可能的這個法律依據所以他為什麼要提出三年以來 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1083.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1100.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這個有可能是他在重建他的這個法律有可能對不對那請問現在的狀況所以我們持續跟美方溝通就是要鞏固我們原來已經談好的這個你回答這三個事就好了這我寫在上面第一個協定裡面現在你的文本協定裡面有沒有提到一二條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1100.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1121.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
沒有吧當然沒有你談的時候根本就沒有這件事怎麼會有122條款對不對那我現在問一下這個122條款因為你當初談完對等關係是不疊加的嘛因為122條款它是一個暫時性的它是一個暫時性的沒錯那122條款有沒有疊加本來的最惠國待遇因為它是暫時性的所以都是有的嘛對不對122是有疊加的嘛所以它在 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1123.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1132.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
尋求他的這個法律預計的時候不會用122122是一個暫時性的但是暫時性的沒有錯嘛但是對等關稅沒了嘛對不對122是暫時性的嘛可是我們的ART |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1133.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1162.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
他擠的對等關稅已經沒了122現在又只是暫時性措施對不對所以其實對我們來講是沒什麼傷害的嘛所以你才講我有看經濟部的相關的回應嘛目前對產業的溝通還算穩得住局勢對不對因為你現在沒有壓力啊你現在沒有威脅嘛對不對因為現在是10%疊加啦對啦10%疊加嘛對不對但相對可控嘛比起那個30幾%疊加會死人的10幾%還算可控對不對現在也沒有對等關稅的威脅122還算可控那ART還有必要那麼急嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1163.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1191.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我剛剛提到就是說美國他可能會利用301還有其他的條例重建他們這個所以剛剛我講很多國家也有在預作準備這個我不否定你的談判團隊本來就要預作準備但是我要提醒這中間其實已經有蠻多蠻多不合理的地方剛剛你今天如果你早先啊面對關稅這個題目豬羊變色你的回應是很乾脆的我們跟世界各國看齊因應新的局勢我要全面停下腳步重新審視重新溝通 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1191.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1217.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我覺得大家對於這個東西的疑慮跟擔心會少非常多但是我必須很誠實的跟院長講我們看到的是 我們還是很優惠啊你夾帶那麼多宣傳的要素在裡面幹嘛呢我們回到事實來談這件事就好我目前為止看到整個關稅的三個大的不合理第一個 協定批准前現在這個ART你也沒有送立法院嘛所以當然沒有批准嘛美國也還沒有批准嘛 對不對所以ART目前的條文其實是不生任何效力的 對嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1218.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1242.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
欸還沒有生效還沒生效對不對好至少我們今天覺得事實基礎上面在講話協定批准檢所以我就講你馬鈴薯放寬的東西很奇怪嘛欸我還是要去強調馬鈴薯的這些條件的改變是平常對任何產品的貿易產品的改變你都在滾動式檢討嘛對不對我都幫你把詞講出來了但是自行放寬自行改變標準很奇怪啦這第一個不合理第二個你 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1243.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1270.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
這我剛剛跟院長講啦我都已經預言在前了可能會有大法官判決這個變數你壓力可能會非常大可能會豬羊變色可是你顯然還是出現了翻盤鬧劇你還先張燈劫財再豬羊變色整個變進退失據第三個就是明明對等關稅都已經消滅了但我們的團隊還不面對現實說不管你要謀定或後動還好我是覺得政治都要重啟談判啦就算你真的要跟美國簽貿易協定你文本的文字總要改變吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1271.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1290.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
你總要爭取新的讓步空間吧美國也要對我們釋出善意吧對不對要不然現在對等關稅已經沒了啊所以我們的好處都不見了可是我們的開放都還在啊如果美國經過301的調查我們也做過合理的說明之後我希望雙方形式上你現在ART裡面有沒有講我一定不是重啟談判沒有吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1290.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1314.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
我覺得形式上不要說是重啟談判是確認我們已經得到的這些優惠的待遇要確認確保我看了一下ART的文本如果我沒有記錯的話市長現在是分兩個部分一個部分是談判最後的結果我們希望鞏固但是另外一個是法律的依據那法律的依據當然先前他有了問題他現在在修正他的法律依據假如法律依據修正好以後我們希望那個談判結果不要改變 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1315.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1336.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
希望談判結果不要改變我的意思是說前面是我們開了馬鈴薯後面還開別的我等一下跟你講換到的是不課對等關稅這是以前的平衡嘛然後你現在講對等關稅已經沒了然後我們這些開放還在然後你現在又講不出來到底我們可以得到哪些白紙黑字的具體誘因然後你講我要維持這件事很危險而且非常不容易 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1336.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1355.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
我想跟委員報告其實在ART的談判過程中有一些301本來在調查的項目其實已經在談判過程中有一個比較好的結果所以我們如果確保我們的ART的一個談判的內容的話相對於可能對於301以後的調查的報告是有幫助的這個是我們的重點 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1355.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1376.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
這就跟我們剛剛談122一樣,你有沒有白紙黑字寫進去?如果有白紙黑字寫進去,你可以講說這是我換到的東西嘛我們就按照事實來根本我想301的調查,他的調查報告沒出來,可是相對裡面的內容在ART裡面已經有很好的共識的時候他們在301裡面就不會有比較嚴格的一個要求院長,我只建議你這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1378.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1393.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
不要踩在這邊尖聲對我有利整個結構都已經改變了你要謀定而後動我至少今天聽到了謀定而後動我稍微鬆了一口氣不要急啦現在大家要繼續面對這個談判我給政府 因為最後剩7分鐘我還要再講一下這幾個原則 兩不兩要兩不兩要怎麼 不應該不詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1398.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1421.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
大家都看馬鈴薯之亂,ART文本裡面可不只寫馬鈴薯,馬鈴薯只是前菜而已來豬來牛才是大家比較擔心的事ART的文本我已經放出來給大家看,在他所謂宣稱的非關稅貿易障礙裡面直接提以後要終止牛肉的竹香茶葉跟冷凍茶葉程序,有沒有這件事?農業部長你可以回答了 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1422.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1445.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
這個是衛福部邊境檢定但是相對的竹箱查驗是在一個非常特殊的狀況是已經發現到有違禁的部分才會去竹箱查驗所以我們過去對於所有的國家都是用抽屁的方式依照他的風險如果風險太高才會達到百分之百就是所謂的竹箱院長這個我貼上去的內容應該沒有錯吧這就ART的文本 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1445.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1464.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
就是對於我們非疫區的肉品進來我們採取的要跟國際的做法一樣所以我們現在必須改變的一個方式是我們對於疫區的認定以及如果是美牛的話它是不是來自疫區這個跟國際的做法要一樣那我們就可以採取一樣的作業標準所以你就是要開放嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1465.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1481.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
我想我也不能這樣講如果以美牛來講過去的這個BSE的部分它在相關的規定是有規範的但是美國現在已經變為BSE可忽略的國家那可忽略的國家表示說他不必向WHO去通報 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1482.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1495.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
那相對的所有的檢疫的遊戲的一個條文就是相關的規範就必須做適度的符合國際規範的更改好又有國際規範了我們又聽到這件事以前大家都講過嘛來院長右邊豬肉豬肉 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1497.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1522.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
對不對 大家以前開美牛的時候大家講過破窗會破窗那時候國民黨執政整個民進黨 震天尬響喊重啟談判這不惜一切守護人民食安言猶在耳不乏現在的高官要員包含副總統 正副總統在內都講過這樣的話當初大家當初你們在野的時候示警的原因是什麼叫破窗嘛今天如果來牛要開放或者是要對齊對齊國際標準接下來就是豬肉 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1526.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1542.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
9號豬肉有沒有如期發生所以無論是牛豬 我們原則是一樣的國人的安全 食品的安全跟國際的規範是同時要達成的ART裡面就寫嘛 以形受體術嘛這些詞大家都幫大家再回想一下這個英宗旨啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1543.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1545.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
我們還是要抽檢驗的沒有說什麼全部都好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1566.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1594.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
門口一大開不是的還是要有檢驗的標準檢驗的這個程序還是會檢驗但是不是逐批檢驗所以我才講馬鈴薯之亂只是開始不過我還是跟委員強調在邊境的檢查所有的查驗都是依據風險只有他對於這個危害物質有的確近來會有檢查會逐批的查驗這個是一個非常重要的問題你可以花很多時間解釋這院長這是我提醒你我為什麼要講不硬凹不詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1595.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1619.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
我講的是對內溝通的部分如果你今天基於什麼樣的理由你可以清楚的跟國人大眾說明抱歉我們就是要犧牲這些事你早點講清楚的講不要摻這些有的沒的馬鈴薯只是開始食安的破口大家認定的破口沒有破口我想委員我還是強調我們說的你不相信然後別的網路的謠言你就相信網路謠言啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1621.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1643.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
這個是謠言喔我們並沒有做任何的改變我們進來的馬鈴薯都不會是有問題的絕對沒有破口檢疫抽菸的程序改變我們也是有所依據的你與其花很多時間用很多話術去解釋你不如直面現實啦我為什麼剛剛講破窗效應這四個字很重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1644.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1651.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
因為當初你們講第一次大家在討論萊克多巴胺萊豬要開放的時候當初政府是怎麼掛保證你還記得嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1654.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1677.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
來 這我們前院長 你們前院長臉都打打下去 打很大力啊寫什麼 圖卡很會做嘛 那時候大家講行政院最會做圖卡圖卡寫什麼 所有 因為為了台美貿易協定的努力啊所以我們當然要做一點讓步嘛 那是我們的門票沒有就沒辦法談CPTPP啦 沒有就沒辦法台美貿易合作啦但是我們一定守護食安嘛 所以豬肉一定要逐批查驗才進口 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1679.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1687.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
對不對四大不變牛豬議題堅持立場你四大不變食安管理機制不變原產地標示不變 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1689.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1715.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
院長 變了沒有 變了沒有你跟我講這樣沒變世大不變沒有變啊人家講你講除皮柴銀才進口現在講除皮柴銀要放寬你跟我講沒有變我剛才跟你講不要搞詐騙你剛才講的世大的部分那個是沒有變的啊校園不進去啊產地標示啊原產地標示ART裡面有沒有寫原產地標示啊有吧說不應該再做產地標示啊只要符合國際標準就不能寫產地標示啊我們沒有變啊 這個我們沒有變啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
1718.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
1745.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
這個就是我們堅持的市面上市場上大家還是可以清楚的看到這樣的標示你總有各式各樣的說法去談這件事但是你的今天的一言一行大家今天在質詢反正公開場合都要經歷大家的檢驗大家相不相信那沒辦法但我們總要把話講清楚很多事情這不是你講的這一套一套因為你當初的掛保證很多東西也出現裂痕這就是我講的破窗效應這也是為什麼我們很擔心這件事情的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
1746.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
1771.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
這個事實就是進來的每一個產品它必須是健康的 安全的你講這個ART對我們非常好但是你總是忽略大家要付的代價如果它真的這麼好你就趕快跟大家把一次可能未來會遇到的事情講講清楚這是我跟你衷心的承諾但另外我們還是從正面 正面收尾大家又覺得吵架這面對談判的兩要要把握時局 要遵守承諾什麼叫把握時局啊院長下一個談判的變數是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
1773.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
1776.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
美國國內的下一個政治變數是什麼 你有沒有掌握啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
1778.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
1804.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
你是說美國的政局的改變 國內可能會遇到什麼事情啊政局的改變嗎 政局的改變啊 對啊 政局的改變落在什麼時候 是什麼樣的事件選舉之後嘛 選舉之後嘛 對不對所以你對時局 你其實是有概念的嘛聰明一點 既然你 我至少今天正面解讀你講謀定而後動 這非常重要因為人要變數啊 我之前也講美國的國會對於關稅政策可是很有意見啦他不會放任川普一個人用單邊主義的方式胡搞瞎搞 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
1804.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
1827.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
但是我認為國家的政策 外交的努力以及各種經貿的秩序他應該有一個常規你可以有你的節奏 這我尊重但是你必須要非常坦誠透明的告訴大家我們可能會付出什麼代價然後你要遵守你的承諾你不要忘記你屢次宣稱在談判的時候你講啦 糧食安全 國人健康 產業利益跟國家利益如果ART的前提消滅好 謝謝謝謝劉委員 |